Ask Slashdot: Which Software/Devices Are Unusable Without Connecting to the Internet? (techdirt.com)

New submitter AlejandroTejadaC writes: Currently, most commercial software and hardware manufactures rely on an internet connection for registering or activating their products and providing additional functionality. In an ideal world this works fine, but in our real world the buyer could lose access to internet for months -- such as in emergency situations like the aftermath of hurricane Maria -- and their products will refuse to work because they need an internet connection. Which companies are using their internet servers as replacements for hardware dongles? I want to see a complete list of software and devices that become completely unusable without a live internet connection. Just remember the infamous case of the Razer Synapse.

Comments

Chromebooks

[Anonymous Coward]

They're just internet browsers, pretending to be laptops.

Re:Chromebooks

[b0s0z0ku]

Exactly. WebTV updated for the 2010s :)

Re:Chromebooks

[mykepredko]

Nonsense. They are great at holding down papers and keeping a door in position when the wind is blowing and there isn't a connection to the Interwebs.

Ooh! Oooh! The Juicero!!

[xevioso]

Oh wait, they went bankrupt. Never mind!

Tasty juice tho.

Depends on what it does

[qwerty shrdlu]

This is no problem at all for devices whose function is to communicate over the internet. And inexcusable for anything else. Period. Get your money back.

Re: Depends on what it does

[im_thatoneguy]

You prefered the days of USB dongles, license servers and an inability to rent per-minute licenses? I for one didn't I ask companies to add internet connection based licensing, I'm so sick and tired of managing FlexLM servers, replacement dongles and paying $1,000 a year when we desparately need it for 60 minutes.

Re: Depends on what it does

[cas2000]

have you ever heard the term "false dichotomy"?

because, you know, internet spyware and $1000 dongles are not the only alternatives.

Re: Depends on what it does

[geekmux]

You prefered the days of USB dongles, license servers and an inability to rent per-minute licenses? I for one didn't I ask companies to add internet connection based licensing, I'm so sick and tired of managing FlexLM servers, replacement dongles and paying $1,000 a year when we desparately need it for 60 minutes.

I'll take a local license file and FlexLM manager any day over internet-dependent services.

I can handle one license server having issues, impeding work. I sure as hell don't want to deal with all of my license managers going down if I lose internet service.

And 60 minutes a year define your usage requirement? I'd outsource that shit.

Re: Depends on what it does

[lucm]

60 minutes a year define your usage requirement? I'd outsource that shit.

That's about my usage for printers, and for a long time I was relying on print services like ups store, and it was a huge pain in the ass. I ended up buying a wifi printer and it's also a pain in the ass so unfortunately there's no happy conclusion to my story.

Re: Depends on what it does

[lucm]

The problem is that I use the built-in scanner a lot, since most of the stuff I print is documents I get by email that I have to sign and return. I've looked at other solutions and none is cheaper than my piece of shit inkjet/scanner combo.

Re: Depends on what it does

[tepples]

Try wired multifunction HP LaserJet, it works with almost any computing device with a USB port. And HP is among the best at supporting SANE on GNU/Linux.

Re: Depends on what it does

[gfxguy]

I like my dongle. I have the software installed on every computer I use - two work laptops and home laptop and a home desktop, and just have my dongle with me. Yes, it's costly if I lose it (a lot more than $1000), but I like the flexibility. My VPN connection to work servers is normally just fine... but there are days it seems it just doesn't want to work; I'd hate to have to go into work when I normally wouldn't have to because Comcast is out, or our VPN portal is being DDOS attacked or something.

When it comes to licensing problems, I'd say a LOT less work is lost at work on our dongle based software than on the ones that rely on an internet connection.

Re: Depends on what it does

[sjames]

MUST.......RESIST........DONGLE.............JOKE!

But seriously, as terrible as local licence managers and dongles can be, at least when something goes wrong, you aren't left sitting in the dark hoping someone a thousand miles away will do the right thing to get things running again eventually. That and in some environments, a connection to the outside world is forbidden or just unavailable.

Re: Depends on what it does

[infolation]

And 60 minutes a year define your usage requirement? I'd outsource that shit.

I recognised the UserID im_thatoneguy from other post-production forums as Gavin Greenwalt, so am guessing '60 minutes' refers to post-production on the television show '60 minutes' rather than a unit of time-usage.

Re: Depends on what it does

[Hognoxious]

Or use something like ImageMagick to overlay the signature while you snooze or watch golf, or even both at the same time.

Re: Depends on what it does

[TheRaven64]

I bought a Dell 1355 multifunction colour laser about 6-7 years ago (and had it for a whole two years before my mother borrowed and found it so useful she never gave it back). It had an Ethernet port and could talk SMB and FTP, so you can scan directly to a file server and emit PDFs (and you can print PDFs from there). It was about £100 new. I don't print much and found that I was spending a lot on my old inkjet because the ink would always have dried up and I'd end up buying a new cartridge for every 2-3 pages. The laser toner lasted the two years I had it and then the next three yeas that my mother had it before needing to be replaced.

For signing documents, I don't bother printing anymore - I just insert my signature into the PDF, run it through the print driver to generate a flattened PDF, and then email it back.

Re: Depends on what it does

[drinkypoo]

You prefered the days of USB dongles, license servers and an inability to rent per-minute licenses?

I prefer software that doesn't have any of that garbage.

Re: Depends on what it does

[drinkypoo]

And HP is among the best at supporting SANE on GNU/Linux.

Unfortunately, HP is one of the most evil when it comes to printer DRM. If you give them money, you're paying to be abused. They are also gigantic assholes about driver updates on Windows. They drop old scanners from the driver even when they use the same protocols as scanners they are continuing to support. If your plan involves giving HP money so that they can continue to fuck people over, it's a shitty plan.

Re: Depends on what it does

[stealth_finger]

The problem is that I use the built-in scanner a lot, since most of the stuff I print is documents I get by email that I have to sign and return. I've looked at other solutions and none is cheaper than my piece of shit inkjet/scanner combo.

Why not just get a scan of your signature and apply it to documents then send back without all the faffing around printing and scanning. Plus it's way cheaper.

Re: Depends on what it does

[tepples]

HP is among the best at supporting SANE on GNU/Linux.

They are also gigantic assholes about driver updates on Windows. They drop old scanners from the driver even when they use the same protocols as scanners they are continuing to support.

Then use HP if your primary OS is GNU/Linux and a different brand if your primary OS is Windows.

Re: Depends on what it does

[b0bby]

You should try Office Lens or CamScanner on your phone. It's pretty amazing what they can do with a flat document; naturally a crinkled page is better on a flatbed. I have one of those all in one printer/scanners too, and I use CamScanner 95% of the time. I bought it years ago, but I think Office Lens is as good and free.

Re:Depends on what it does

[jeremyp]

Personally, I'm quite happy with a piece of software needing to talk over the Internet once to get activated, but software that phones home periodically and stops working if there no connection is the spawn of Satan as far as I am concerned. I used to have a big problem with Steam in this regard. It always seemed to want to phone home exactly at the time I was on a plane or a train without the Internet.

It doesn't seem so bad these days. Or perhaps that is a reflection of the ever more ubiquitous Internet coverage.

Re: Depends on what it does

[Gr8Apes]

Samsung, Brother, Canon. I can refill all 3.

Re: Depends on what it does

[lucm]

The problem is that I use the built-in scanner a lot, since most of the stuff I print is documents I get by email that I have to sign and return. I've looked at other solutions and none is cheaper than my piece of shit inkjet/scanner combo.

Why not just get a scan of your signature and apply it to documents then send back without all the faffing around printing and scanning. Plus it's way cheaper.

This is a good idea, and it will also spice up the paperwork boredom by injecting a whiff of forgery.

Re: Depends on what it does

[stealth_finger]

.png 300ppi. The scan will look just like the other scans.

I like it.

[im_thatoneguy]

The tradeoff is between the bad old days of hardware locked licenses or just as bad managing a license server. We have quite a bit of software that was a huge pain in the ass to move between computers or else had to connect to our vpn just to function. Connecting to the internet every few days is a small price to pay to simplify licensing and offer more flexibility in deployment.

Re:I like it.

[DCFusor]

Or you could go back to just owning what you paid for, you know, like the older not so bad days...But human nature and "theft" of "IP" and greed mean we can't have nice things anymore. Well, I write my own nice software, but...

Re:I like it.

[AmiMoJo]

I don't mind the occasional licence check, what I mind is changing from a one-off payment to a subscription model.

Dumb lightswitches

[dfsmith]

One of the reasons I picked Tradfri over other other "smart"/IoT lights and switches is because it's all local---no cloudy stuff supported except for the things I've explicitly connected. However, there are a number of silly bugs and missing features that make it practically unusable. So, I'm still searching for lights and buttons that work, and my X10 system is still being used....

Re:Dumb lightswitches

[Anonymous Coward]

The rooms in my home have these things on the wall called light-switches. They're pretty local, and if I see a cloud I just tell whoever is in the shower to shut the damn door and turn on the vent.

(More on point: I worked at a company that did smart lighting installs in commercial buildings and rich people's homes for a few years (mostly dynet stuff if you're curious). No matter how much debugging was done on those things, between hardware problems, software glitches and user "interactions" they generated a consistent revenue stream in terms of maintenance. My honest recommendation when people start asking about smart lighting is simply this: don't. Just don't. Unless you own a commercial building and/or love the idea of doing tech support on it from now to eternity just stick with boring old mechanical switches).

Re:Dumb lightswitches

[AmiMoJo]

However, there are a number of silly bugs and missing features that make it practically unusable.

Which is why non-cloud products don't sell. Consumers like cloud based stuff, they like being able to download a phone app that does all the set-up for them, and lets them control their lightbulb from the office. Promising more features via firmware update is also a good marketing strategy, even if you don't delivery them *cough* Tesla *cough*

Sadly, security does not sell.

Re:Dumb lightswitches

[lobotomy]

I, too, am sticking with my X10 controllers and modules. I would love to switch to something more reliable but two things are holding me back: (1) Requiring an internet connection to work. It is one thing to offer extra features if internet-connected, but being a requirement is ridiculous. (2) The cost of the modules. $50 to $75 for most of them is outrageous.

Re:Dumb lightswitches

[Pascoea]

I did an extremely small installation, a single 30-person training/conference room with lights, video, sound, all controlled by remote. We used Lutron's RadioRa equipment, I think there were 3 dimmers, a couple of toggles, a scene controller, and a wireless to ethernet (or maybe it was serial, don't remember) bridge. Once I got past the learning curve of how the whole damn thing worked I never had an issue with it.

The equipment was as dumb as you could possibly get from a technology perspective. There were no GUIs, no cloud config, no outside internet connection needed, nothing to make the installation "easy". You had to spend the time to read the manuals, experiment with the logic, and generally futz around with it until you had things how you want them. After that it just worked.

The problem is your "average" end user of such a thing isn't going to have the patience to do what I just described. They want it "iPhone easy". They want to take it out of the box, plug it in, and have it work. There is an inordinate amount of complexity involved with making something complicated that easy to use. With that underlying complexity comes bugs. I'm not arguing which one is "better", just providing an anecdotal observation. I'd love to get all my outside lighting coordinated into a "smart" system, but for the reasons you described I haven't been able to convince myself that it's worth the hassle.

Re:Modem.

[leonbev]

You could still do a point to point connection with a modem, bypassing the Internet. You would need to be on an old school copper phone line connection, though... Fiber would go over a data connection.

Nothing!

[IonOtter]

There is nothing on this planet that I need so badly, that I have to sacrifice it's ability to function if it cannot get on the Internet. If it cannot work on it's own, then it is of no use to me.

Re:Nothing!

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen to that, brother (or sister). Why in the world do I need a light bulb I can control with a smartphone app, or a refrigerator that can text message me that I'm low on milk? In the case of that Razer Synapse mouse, a 25 cent EEPROM chip would accomplish the same thing without needing a cloud service to create an account on and save a few dozen bytes of configuration. Smart devices? Rather the opposite I think.

Re:Nothing!

[IonOtter]

The premise of your argument is absurd. We're not talking about online services, we're talking about physical devices that exist in the real world. Things like your refrigerator, stove or desk lamp.

TiVo

[93 Escort Wagon]

You have a two week grace period, but once it runs out of data and is no longer able to verify your paid account status... you've got an oddly shaped brick on your hands.

Re:TiVo

[msauve]

Sure, with no guide data, it won't know about what's on and be able to record it. But it will continue to work as a tuner, so you can still watch channels. Course, if Internet is down, cable probably is, too. You can also playback already recorded shows. It doesn't turn into a brick.

Re:TiVo

[mattack2]

Though I thought the topic also was about *initially setting up* the device. It needs the Internet to initially set up/set up your channel lineup/get the first set of guide data. (Obviously it needs to keep connecting to keep updating the guide data.)

Worse though, and I'm a HUGE tivo fan, is the reliance on the net for some things where data _does_ exist on your local Tivo.. e.g. View Upcoming. If you have a net glitch, you can't View Upcoming, even though that data is already on your Tivo. I do use some of the net-based functionality (e.g. Explore this show) a lot, and like it.. I just wish it could do the equivalent of what S1 & S2 could do, without the net.

Re:TiVo

[93 Escort Wagon]

I’ve heard conflicting reports on this. Some people said that as of the Series 3, the tuners wouldn’t change channels - you could only play back already recorded shows (admittedly that’s still not a brick).

I have lifetime on my current box, so I can’t really test it.

Re:TiVo

[Osgeld]

someone uses a TiVo? wow is it 2002 again

Re:TiVo

[kamitchell]

It might not be your thing, but it's a thing.

One can "cut the cord", then tape a leaf antenna to the window and get an over-the-air-only TiVo. It can grab local programming (like the news) and ad-supported shows off the air.

It also can play all the major streaming services. Not only that, but it can record the current season of a show off the air, and combine that with previous seasons from Your Favorite Streaming Service into a single list of episodes.

So yeah, some of us still use one.

Re:TiVo

[Osgeld]

I honestly didnt even know they still made them anymore

Re:TiVo

[Larry Lightbulb]

Is there an alternative that is as simple to use?

Re:TiVo

[Osgeld]

no clue I dedicate about an hour a week to the idiot box, and even less watching tv

Re:TiVo

[harl]

None of the alternatives to cable carry my local stations. A digital antenna, a TiVo, and Playstation VUE is less per month than cable and we get everything we watched on cable except for Comedy Central. $15 a month is well worth me not having to get a list of everything everyone wants to watch and then downloading it. Over 5 years a homedbrew DVR PC would be cheaper but I don't want to deal with maintaining another set of hardware and training family members on yet another interface. The TiVo works exactly like and sits extactly where the settop box was.

Re:EA Origin

[jiriw]

The only Steam games (and I have quite a few) I can't play offline are MMO games. The rest is perfectly playable, once installed.... or at least their single-player and (for those that have that) local multi-player modi are.

I have no experience with EA Origin, so please enlighten me...

Barnes and Noble Nooks

[ElizabethGreene]

I have several older Nooks by Barnes and Noble. Out of the box they are bricks until you activate them online.

Re:Outside of my Roku?

[msauve]

You just don't understand the difference between an intranet and the Internet.

A lot of software packages...

[rnturn]

...no longer include on-disk help files any more. Click on "About->Help" (or whatever) and you wind up directed to an external web page. I suppose it saved some disk space when the application was installed but pretty annoying if you hit a snag while using the software, need to access a reference, and internet access isn't available.

Re:A lot of software packages...

[barbariccow]

Allows them to always give you the latest workarounds for bugs and links to ads like no local patching could!

Re:A lot of software packages...

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

It also enables them to delete or redirect the help for older versions of software you paid for, pushing users into upgrades they otherwise didn't want or need. Like almost any phone-home software that isn't doing it as part of a genuine communications feature, it's just one more way to artificially limit the life of something that would otherwise carry on working just fine.

Re:A lot of software packages...

[sjames]

There is literally nothing online can do that local patching can't.

Re:A lot of software packages...

[DNS-and-BIND]

My favorite: when Windows 8 network can't connect, it says, "Click here for help and troubleshooting". I click, and then it says, "Cannot connect to the internet, please connect for help and troubleshooting."

Re:A lot of software packages...

[Cro Magnon]

It especially sucks if you're trying to look up how to access the internet.

Re: A lot of software packages...

[houghi]

The fact that it is saving diskspace is not important. You will have more updated help available. The times you need it when th network is down should be limited.
Just bought bew hardware and I got 2 cds with it. I do not have CD player. Why not include a cheap USB 2 key. 1gb would be enough.

Re:Windows 10

[Opportunist]

Well, then I guess I managed to break mine... Guess I have to get a new one?

Outage length makes this an interesting question

[Flexagon]

The only devices that I have that die quickly are over-the-top settop boxes for streaming TV.

However, since the OP specifically refers to events that can cause very long outages, I have some more:

• Cable TV DVR. After 2 weeks, no more guide data. That assumes that cable TV is up but internet isn't. Recorded shows are always available.
• Microsoft Office 365, even if installed and run locally ahead of time. It phones home every so often (39 days?) to verify your license. Think Puerto Rico.
• Any documents or email kept in the cloud without local caching. Fortunately, I have none. I use a local email client.

I steer away from any of the other IoT devices such as thermostats or other appliances. I recently replaced an old smoke alarm/CO detector. I was hoping to find one that would set off the others in the house if one detected an issue, wireless without a full wireless ethernet connection. But the only options were for ones that required a full wireless internet connection back to the manufacturer's cloud service, making them full IoT devices with their attendant security issues. So I got one without such wireless communication.

Adobe, et al

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the biggest problems with software is that the data created with it may only be usable with that piece of software. Adobe software is a prime example: you'll never be able to reuse an After Effects project without a copy of After Effects the same version or later to use it with, and today your only option is a subscription that can run out. When that subscription runs out, the countless hours you invested in using that software are rendered inaccessible. Sure, you can pull up that MP4 you rendered for YouTube that time, but if you want to revisit the project or reuse it in another? Nope, your subscription's out so your data has dropped to a value of zero.

I pay Adobe for a software subscription every month. I also keep the latest installers, AMT Painter, cracked amtlib.dll files, etc. lying around in case something goes wrong. The last thing I need is to be broke and unable to pay for my subscription and lose access to my countless hours of work as a result. Regardless of your position within the ethical arguments surrounding software piracy and cracking, it is good practice to keep a known working cracked copy of any "online required" software lying around just in case the vendor cuts you off for some reason.

Oh, and Adobe refuses to activate old (i.e. CS1) versions of their software, so anyone that "bought" such software and has a computer problem will soon find out that they didn't "own" jack shit. I see no ethical dilemma with using a cracked copy in such cases. Fuck software activation.

Re:Adobe, et al

[TheRealHocusLocus]

it is good practice to keep a known working cracked copy of any "online required" software lying around just in case the vendor cuts you off for some reason.

Congratulations AC, you have offered the only useful and practical idea I've seen so far in this thread. Virtue signalling self-policing comments like, I tolerate Internet reliance because I'm a good person and I know there are bad people out there... people (laughably) listing things that are pointless without the Internet... uggh.

It is good to have cracked [frozen,current,standalone installable] versions even if the software is not strictly 'online required' today, but you have committed to follow an automatic patch-in update path where your operating version begins to diverge seriously from your purchased installable media past a major version. And especially if any step renders your oldest files to become un-usable (or even worse!) subject to some possibly-buggy "conversion step". The gist of it is, I have typically found software to be adept at converting from the previous major versions, but as I discovered on the long and tortuous Aldus Pagemaker 2 (came bundled with 'new' Microsoft Windows version 1.0.3!) thru Pagemaker 3,4,5 Adobe Indesign now Creative Suite path, converting your documents from versions beyond previous can be a shitshow.

I cite Pagemaker only to illustrate, for it was firmly grounded on the principle that you purchase software for life and are entitled to a functional offline installer. Since Adobe arrived on the scene that idea has been challenged somewhat, and because of that I never fully committed to the Indesign path. When you have stuff that works you should start to ignore new features, especially if they are Internet-bound and just work anyhow.

But I've been caught at times, and my reaction would seem direct and 'extreme' to the silly anti-pirates that hang out here. THE FIRST TIME I'm sent a document that triggers the message "It looks like this document was saved using a previous version of [x]. Would you like to download a [special lens,filter pack,wonder-tool] so we can convert/open the document?" I sound the general bullshit alarm. This alarm triggers the following actions,
1. acquire cracked 'previous' version that installs without Internet.
2. acquire cracked current version that installs without Internet.

Every week someone at Microsoft asks someone else, "Why are so many people still using XP?" and they receive a direct honest answer. Which they forget because it is uncomfortable. Then they ask again next week, as those people continue to run XP.

If your hardware or software does not work with Windows 7 you'll never sell any to me. Life gets boring around here sometimes but hey, I own books too. And IF (some say WHEN) the Internet becomes strictly a local affair and the connected world dissolves into enclaves, bunkers and redoubts, I'll be able to assemble working systems off the shelf. What will some of you be doing?

Reading books, that's what! HA HA HA HA HA...! I'll rent them to you.

Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Basically unusable without a constant connection to Stack Overflow.

Re:Linux

[HiThere]

Troll or incompetent? I can't tell. I've known a few people incompetent enough to feel that way, but they feel the same way every time they get a MSWind upgrade.

Re:Stupid Ask Slashdot question but here goes

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong, its a good question, just a stupid answer from someone who doesn't understand the issue.

Yeah, yeah, my router, my browser - ha, ha, ha - funny smart-assed answers.

A mouse doesn't work w/o the internet is a useless device. Recently logitech just announced their remote controller hub (or whatever it is) will stop working once the shut down their server. Useless.

If you travel to an area with no, poor or expensive connections, then software that doesn't work w/o an internet connection is useless.

If your connection to the Internet goes down and your mouse, computer or other device stops working, renders it useless. No thanks. Personally, I've no use for any of this garbage.

Android apps from Amazon

[excursive]

I stopped buying or using Android apps from the Amazon store because they stopped working after a while without an internet connection. If they couldn't call home, they died.

Chumby

[Sarusa]

Sadly, while I really like the Chumby alarm clock form factor (it's a little padded beanbag you can pound to snooze, very satisfying), it's completely dead without an internet connection at boot.

At one point the company basically went under, but a benevolent soul has kept the servers running for another 5+ years - all of them would stop working without it.

It doesn't have to be continually connected, but periodically. And when it can't connect, you've got a worthless alarm clock, which is very bad for an alarm clock I really should replace it, but I'm not all that reliant on it (set my phone as backup when I have to make a plane), and I REALLY like hitting the soft top to snooze it.

Re:Chumby

[viperidaenz]

the Chumby software is all open-source, you could always modify it yourself.

Genealogy software

[ve3oat]

Some years ago I stopped using Family Tree Maker genealogy software because it wouldn't work unless my computer was connected to the Internet. There are lots of other genealogy programs out there that don't require a constant Internet connection and I quickly settled on Roots Magic for most of my record keeping. I also now use Legacy for some chores. Good-bye FTM.

Web browsers

[viperidaenz]

Chrome consistently fails to work for me when I have no internet connection
Firefox isn't any better either.
I even tried Internet Explorer and Edge.

None of the web browsers I tried worked without an internet connection! I think there's some collusion going on in the industry. Maybe I should start an antitrust lawsuit.

Re:Web browsers

[JustOK]

Browsers still work, but only for local files.

Google Maps, VoIP Phone

[Torin Darkflight]

Yes, you can download maps for offline use in a small area, but if you go outside that pre-defined area OR you didn't download maps for offline use and happen to drive through an extended area with poor or no 4G/3G service, it becomes useless. This is perhaps the most bothersome "no internet connection means it won't work" experience I personally have encountered, and it is the primary reason I still carry a standalone GPS device in my car.

There's also VoIP phone services, including a lot of the phone services provided by cable ISPs. Lose that connection, and you lose "landline" phone service...and yes, there are still lots of people who use landline phones either by choice or necessity.

Re: Google Maps, VoIP Phone

[fortfive]

wonâ(TM)t the route continue tongive directions even without data signal?

Re: Google Maps, VoIP Phone

[houghi]

I have ofline maps for Western Europe. Maps.me is great, enen if roaming costs are a thing of the past.

EagleCad

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that Autodesk bought it, it requires an internet connection. I've been using the software since 1997. I've always upgraded the pay versions of the software. It is going to be very hard to get work done without it for a while. Kicad has come a long way, but I'm still finding it difficult to convince myself that it is ready for complex commercial work. It will get here eventually. Very sad to loose Cadsoft..

TLS certificates for your internal network

[tepples]

My web browsers work just fine without an internet connection.

Mind you I can only reach servers on my internal network

How do you obtain TLS certificates for the HTTPS servers on your internal network without an Internet connection? Cleartext HTTP doesn't work for a lot of things nowadays because of the Secure Contexts requirement that browsers have implemented. Even if you use an ACME client elsewhere to get a certificate from Let's Encrypt and sneakernet it to your internal network, you still have to buy a domain for your internal network in order to have a name for the certificate, and you have to keep paying to renew it.

Re:TLS certificates for your internal network

[WaffleMonster]

How do you obtain TLS certificates for the HTTPS servers on your internal network without an Internet connection? Cleartext HTTP doesn't work for a lot

In the absence of the Internet there would no longer be much if any incentive to do so.

of things nowadays because of the Secure Contexts requirement that browsers have implemented. Even if you use an ACME client elsewhere to get a certificate from Let's Encrypt and sneakernet it to your internal network, you still have to buy a domain for your internal network in order to have a name for the certificate, and you have to keep paying to renew it.

Common for corporations to create their own CAs for managing trust across their Internal networks. Anyone can do it for free with a few lines of OpenSSL commands. Just requires an extra step of installing your CA cert into each systems trusted certificate database.

Dedicated GPS device for ages 16 to 20

[tepples]

[Lack of map data where there is no 4G/3G service or no subscription thereto] is the primary reason I still carry a standalone GPS device in my car.

The other is that some states allow use of a dedicated GPS device at license age but ban use of a smartphone as an in-car GPS until age 21.

PC games

[Misagon]

DRM servers have killed the used games market on PCs.
There are lots and lots of games out there that are over a decade old even that you can't buy used because they have been "activated" on an old DRM server and can't be reactivated on another machine.

In several cases, legitimate copies of a game can't be played at all on any PC because the game had demanded to contact a now discontinued DRM server even to start.

Re:PC games

[mjwx]

DRM servers have killed the used games market on PCs.
There are lots and lots of games out there that are over a decade old even that you can't buy used because they have been "activated" on an old DRM server and can't be reactivated on another machine.

In several cases, legitimate copies of a game can't be played at all on any PC because the game had demanded to contact a now discontinued DRM server even to start.

Actually sales killed the used game market on the PC, not that it had a huge one to begin with. When I can buy a year old game on Steam for £10 or 2 year old game on Steam or GOG for £5 new, why would I pay £15 for it used?

The reason Consoles have a used game market is that Console owners have less money and fewer sales, 12+ months after release you're still paying near release prices for old games.

As for DRM... there's yet to be one that has remained uncracked. Also I don't reward companies that pull this kind of bollocks, hence EA and Ubisoft has not seen a single one of my currency units (I have cards in multiple countries) since they tried to force me into their own platforms.

Re:Stupid Ask Slashdot question but here goes

[gfxguy]

Yes - I think this is what the topic is about. A printer, for example, that requires an internet connection to set up because it only includes a software down-loader so that the user gets the latest version of the drivers.

Logitech's "Harmony Link" is a great example... I can't imagine why anyone would buy one to begin with, but most people probably didn't realize what they were getting into.

Obviously software whose main function is networking would be affected, so I don't know why everyone feels the need to point that out. An MMORPG obviously needs networking.

It's also what makes buying a Chromebook dubious, but from my understanding you are able to work offline - although I'd imagine in a "crippled" way until you get back online, but I honestly don't know.

No one mentioned Windows yet?

[blindseer]

I've been using Windows for a very long time. Had a number of issues activating in the past, even when XP first came out. Activation has only got more complex and reliant on an internet connection since.

Activating Windows has always been a headache. I remember those "dongles" that we'd have to use on some software we had, that was a bit inconvenient but at least I didn't need to make a phone call or need internet to get a licensed program to work.

When in an offline network, for security reasons, this became especially problematic. Even bringing in a phone line was a problem. These were "roach motel" systems, you can bring things in but nothing leaves. Just writing down an identifying code for a computer to get an activation code to bring back in could be a problem.

In some cases I'd ask why we couldn't just get a Mac or run Linux, those don't need online activation. I'll get a reply on how they'd need some Windows only program or anything other than Microsoft was not "approved". The needing of a specific software might make sense but this "approval" does not. Do what needs to get done to "approve" an operating system that does not need an internet connection to activate. What could the operating system possibly do to compromise security on an air gap system?

Whatever. I haven't had to deal with that for a while and I hope I won't have to again.

Re:No one mentioned Windows yet?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Given your username is “blindseer”, I find your sig slightly alarming.

Re:Everything

[scdeimos]

Windows and MacOS X however.. oh good god.

Bollocks, MacOS doesn't require internet access. The default things the OS does internet-wise are update checks for apps, XProtect/Gatekeeper config updates, security updates and OS updates, all of which can be turned off from the Terminal using:

defaults write /Library/Preferences/com.apple.commerce AutoUpdate -bool false
defaults write /Library/Preferences/com.apple.SoftwareUpdate AutomaticCheckEnabled -bool false
defaults write /Library/Preferences/com.apple.SoftwareUpdate AutomaticDownload -bool false
defaults write /Library/Preferences/com.apple.SoftwareUpdate ConfigDataInstall -bool FALSE
defaults write /Library/Preferences/com.apple.SoftwareUpdate CriticalUpdateInstall -bool false

Re:Everything

[Desler]

Windows and MacOS X however.. oh good god.

And yet I use macOS multiple times a week with no Internet access. Seems to work just fine for me.

All Autodesk stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

needs regular internet connection to keep activation working, and even then the activation POS often prevents you from working for a day. The Autodesk servers also regularly have technical problems and autodesk keeps messing with accounts, which also results in problems. I'm sure it will all work just fin for anyone downloading a pirated copy, but many paying customers are looking for legal alternatives.

Re:Chromebook, Android

[HiThere]

Not true. I've got a Android (Samsung Galaxy recent model), and I've never activated an internet connection. I must have one somehow, because it's had me update my software a couple of times, but I never connect, and I haven't given it any permissions on my network. I suspect it's calling over the cell phone lines.

I'll grant that it keep asking me to do an internet connection, but I got it because I needed a phone. If I'd been able to get a simple phone as quickly, I would have preferred that.

This does, however, prove that you don't need to enable internet access on an Android phone...perhaps you bought yours from a vendor who customized things so that it does require it.

Earth is going nowhere

[skovnymfe]

Earth can get pummeled by asteroids, ravaged by plagues, by fires, by global warming. It's not going anywhere. We are. Fuck the Earth, let's save humanity?

Re:Earth is going nowhere

[skovnymfe]

Ah shit this wasn't even the right article I commented on. Thanks for not having an edit button Slashdot. Making websites like it's 1992.

the list

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in region where interenet is no "always on". Therefore, I use Nintendo Wii (yes, still), iPad, iPod shuffle, Linux and Windows 7 PCs.
However, some stuff is rather useless w/o internet:
- Current Sony playstation, and Microsoft Xbox, practically all PC games within last 10 years or so.
- Microsoft Windows (XP and up require online activation, 10 tend to have unusable parts without internet)
- Cloud based devices (mouse, clocks, IP web cameras (yes, baby monitors too), weather stations, smart TV's and PVR's)

Number of devices have functionality problems - from refrigerators to light switches and dimmers, a/c controllers etc.

Fill in the list!

Re:the list

[PixetaledPikachu]

I live in region where interenet is no "always on". Therefore, I use Nintendo Wii (yes, still), iPad, iPod shuffle, Linux and Windows 7 PCs. However, some stuff is rather useless w/o internet: - Current Sony playstation, and Microsoft Xbox, practically all PC games within last 10 years or so. - Microsoft Windows (XP and up require online activation, 10 tend to have unusable parts without internet) - Cloud based devices (mouse, clocks, IP web cameras (yes, baby monitors too), weather stations, smart TV's and PVR's)

Number of devices have functionality problems - from refrigerators to light switches and dimmers, a/c controllers etc.

Fill in the list!

You can activate XP and 7 via phone calls. Maybe 10 too, I haven't installed it on any of my machine or used it extensively

Latest IoT gadgets

[Gabest]

Just bought surveillance camera and it only works with its "cloud" connected app.

Also Autodesk

[stasike]

AutoCAD and other AutoDesk products can not even be purchased anymore. You have to rent them. Just like Adobe stuff. I still have a purchased license installed, that you can upgrade through a subscription service, but if anything happens to this PC, or disk, or whatever I will need to reinstall and it will have to connect to the internet for activation. So still not ideal condition.
Nowadays a recent version of [rented] AutoCAD (and other AutoDesk products) will check licensing server periodically and will cease to run when it can't reach it for something like 30 days. So, you grab your notebook with AutoCAD and head to Puerto Rico to work as a contractor and soon you are without access to your own drawings.

In the "Good Old Days" (TM) you had your hardlock dongle and you did not have to beg for permission to run software for which you have purchased license. You wanted to take a laptop to a job site, you installed AutoCAD on it, unplugged the hardlock from your workstation, plugged it to your laptop and you were golden. Nowadays you have to piss against a wind every time you need to [re]install something.

Recently I have started to use DraftSight at home and at work as a replacement for AutoCAD. But DraftSight has to be reactivated periodically and it is starting to be huge PITA. You have to jump through the hoops to get it activated, because in more than 50% cases it doesn't work and you have to google for solution, update the software, disable this or that in the network settings ... At home my DraftSight installed on Linux refuses to run even when I reinstall and activate it.

Razer peripherals

[PixetaledPikachu]

Since Razer Synapse v2.0, they started to store devices profiles over the web. You can still use the mice and keyboards, but gain access device settings such as changing DPI steppings and surface configuration will require customers to create a razer account and log into Synapse.

Razer peripherals

[PixetaledPikachu]

Since Razer Synapse v2.0, they have started to store devices profiles over the web. You can still use the mice and keyboards out of the box, but gaining access to device settings such as changing DPI steppings and surface configuration will require customers to create a razer account and log into Synapse. They even stopped putting onboard memory inside most of their newer mice

Re:Stupid Ask Slashdot question but here goes

[admin7087]

It's not a stupid question at all, unless your goal is to intentionally misunderstand the question. The OP obviously meant software that you wouldn't expect to stop working without the Internet. My favorite word processor, for instance, starts warning about the license after a few days without Internet access. It takes a week or two until it stops entirely.

Also, Firefox works fine without Internet and my webcam, too.

Calling home

[The Cynical Critic]

One of the professors at my old university once went to a conference and tried to demo an application he had recently written only to find that it would hang immediately upon launch. It had worked flawlessly when he had been debugging it a few days earlier and run the exact same build the day before. Turns out one of the APIs the application used would "call home" as part of the setup function even when none of the network functions in the API were used.

Needless to say he ended up with some proverbial egg on his face on top of what you usually get when you're called "Jerker" (Swedish male surname) and try to present something in an English speaking country.

Re: Outside of my Roku?

[CSMoran]

Those small furry creatures, did they groove with a Pict by any chance?

Price of device vs Price of ownership

[DrYak]

I've looked at other solutions and none is cheaper than my piece of shit inkjet/scanner combo.

...until your ink cartridge runs out.
(Which will happen after only 3 weeks, because why pack full-capacity inks cartridge, when you can pack demo cartridges.
Also, the whole "color" cartridge needs replacement, even if only one ink ran out.
Also, the ink in question is yellow, because fuck you US with your yellow dot coding.
Also, the ink didn't exactly run out, but the counter chip with DRM on it decided it's time to give up).
Then suddenly it seems cheaper to replace the whole printer than buy new cartridges.

(Or else you're in for a messy business of trying to refill your own cartridges at home.
Or hope that the local cartdiges refurbishment shop does a nice job).

You're better off investing into a :
  - indeed, multifunction with printer/scanner combo is a good bet for your usecase.
  - *laser* printer (check the toner cartridges price : they are usually MUCH cheaper in the long run due to minuscule per-page cost).
  - wired printer, best over Ethernet (it's just a plain network printer cue. Works without driver on most OSes)
  - check that the printer supports standard language like Post-Script (completely driverless in most OSes) or at least PCL (There are a few Cannon printers that lack PS, and only speak PCL or some useless proprietary shit).
  - check that the printer has a USB port (so you can scan to a USB stick, if you don't want to scan to e-mail or scan to samba share)

Now for the specific situation of signing document, you might instead set your workflow to add a scanned signature on the document and burn it as an image and re-send it as PDF with JBIG images embed. But don't forget to sign your e-mail (or PDFs) cryptographically for security.

Re:Price of device vs Price of ownership

[drinkypoo]

PCL is fine, as an output language. It's often interpreted faster than Postscript, which means you get your print jobs quicker. But it's absolutely mandatory that a printer speak at least PCL if not also Postscript, and not just some bullshit proprietary language for which there's no support. PCL is well-supported.

Re:Outside of my Roku?

[TheRaven64]

The Internet and over TCP/IP are not the same thing. Most phones are doing VoIP now, but that doesn't mean that it's routed over the public Internet.

Re: Outside of my Roku?

[ixidor]

except the shit verizon/comcast/time warner/spectrum sells as a "home phone" goes out over the coax line ie: your home internet.

Re: Outside of my Roku?

[fortfive]

Only in caves.

Re:Stupid Ask Slashdot question but here goes

[drinkypoo]

It's also what makes buying a Chromebook dubious, but from my understanding you are able to work offline - although I'd imagine in a "crippled" way until you get back online, but I honestly don't know.

Google was actually the pioneer of offline HTML apps with Google Gears, but now we all have offline HTML features and it's been superseded. Your apps will still work fine. A better way to go, though, is to buy a Chromebook which is supported by Libreboot. That gives you a path to install a real OS on it, without having to worry about your install being wiped out by an errant keypress at boot time.

Re:EA Origin

[drinkypoo]

The only Steam games (and I have quite a few) I can't play offline are MMO games. The rest is perfectly playable, once installed...

The "once installed" is the rub. If you don't have Steam installed on your machine already, you can't play any Steam games. You can't install Steam without an internet connection. You can't install a Steam "Backup" without Steam installed, and if the game has Steam DRM, you won't be able to play it until it's phoned home once. So basically, all your Steam "Backups" are "worthless" if you want to do a fresh install when your internet connection is down, or after the eventual and inevitable demise of Steam.

I "have" a massive Steam library, mostly of very deeply discounted games, but I don't fool myself into thinking I own those games, nor even copies of them. If they weren't extraordinarily inexpensive, I wouldn't have bought them. The only Steam game which cost more than a few bucks for which I paid full price was Half-Life 2, and I will never pay more than a few bucks for any Steam DRM-protected title ever again, because of the DRM. I have personally encountered this scenario, and I don't want to encounter it again.

Re:Chromebook, Android

[drinkypoo]

I've got a Android (Samsung Galaxy recent model), and I've never activated an internet connection. I must have one somehow, because it's had me update my software a couple of times, but I never connect, and I haven't given it any permissions on my network. I suspect it's calling over the cell phone lines.

Yep. The telco is free to use the internet functionality for their own purposes. But clearly, your phone does have an internet connection, which means anyone who has owned your telco has also owned you.

Re:Outside of my Roku?

[zifn4b]

You just don't understand the difference between an intranet and the Internet.

Indeed. Mobile phones work just fine in airplane mode though.

Re: Outside of my Roku?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

It seems useful to distinguish between "requires internet access because it relies on handy network capabilities" and "requires internet access because the DRM system says you haven't activated recently".

Yes, it is worth remembering how many "POTS" lines turn into VOIP a short distance from the customer, probably in a little widget with a handful of hours of battery backup at best; but "my phone doesn't work because telecommunications are disrupted" isn't terribly surprising or a conspiracy of deliberate crippling. Other cases are not so architecturally necessary; and the difference between "works" and "deliberately stops working" more dramatic.

Almost all Adobe software

[roger_that]

I currently use Adobe Lightroom, and occasionally Photoshop, but I'm guessing that all of Adobe's big apps work the same way. For LR, you can go 30 days without an internet connection before it loses most of its functionality. After 30 days, all the sliders (think color adjustments, exposure, and a bunch of other functions) no longer work. I haven't tested this, but I believe you can still crop a photo, so it still has SOME functionality, but you won't be using it to edit wedding photos. I haven't checked lately, but I'm guessing that Adobe Reader will still work after 30 days of no internet connection.

Re:Outside of my Roku?

[TheRaven64]

For BT within the UK, at least, it's over separate fibre or separate circuit-switched partitions within fibres that may also carry Internet traffic, but the majority of the phone network, in spite of running IP, is not addressable from the Internet. This is done to guarantee QoS for the voice traffic.

Re:EA Origin

[lordbeejee]

The only Steam games (and I have quite a few) I can't play offline are MMO games. The rest is perfectly playable, once installed...

The "once installed" is the rub. If you don't have Steam installed on your machine already, you can't play any Steam games. You can't install Steam without an internet connection. You can't install a Steam "Backup" without Steam installed, and if the game has Steam DRM, you won't be able to play it until it's phoned home once. So basically, all your Steam "Backups" are "worthless" if you want to do a fresh install when your internet connection is down, or after the eventual and inevitable demise of Steam.

I "have" a massive Steam library, mostly of very deeply discounted games, but I don't fool myself into thinking I own those games, nor even copies of them. If they weren't extraordinarily inexpensive, I wouldn't have bought them. The only Steam game which cost more than a few bucks for which I paid full price was Half-Life 2, and I will never pay more than a few bucks for any Steam DRM-protected title ever again, because of the DRM. I have personally encountered this scenario, and I don't want to encounter it again.

You don't need steam to play your games, just navigate to the install directory and launch the executable. If it's using steam as drm method the game won't launch but the vast majority of my games just start without steam installed.

Google play books

[laymusic]

Other ebook readers download the whole book when you open it, and you can continue reading even without an internet connection, but for some reason Google play books needs to contact the mothership every few pages, or if you want to change the color scheme (which I do twice a day) or the font size.

Re:surprised...

[stealth_finger]

That the apk guy isn't trying to say that his stupid hosts files can fix all this.

He's currently busy using it to cure cancer.

Re: Outside of my Roku?

[Anonymous Coward]

and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were nervous if captain Kirk was around.

Fixed that for you.

Most Smart Homes

[tazan]

Most Smart home hubs want to bounce everything off of their server. Not sure why I need to tell a server in Timbuktu that it's 6:PM, please turn on my porch light.

Private CAs don't cooperate with BYOD

[tepples]

Common for corporations to create their own CAs for managing trust across their Internal networks. Anyone can do it for free with a few lines of OpenSSL commands. Just requires an extra step of installing your CA cert into each systems trusted certificate database.

Good luck walking friends and family through installing a private CA's root certificate onto each phone, tablet, laptop, or handheld video game console that they have brought to your home in order to play the videos stored on your NAS. There were plans at some time to make even the Fullscreen API secure-only, meaning any video played from a NAS over cleartext HTTP would have distracting always-on borders around it.

Re:Private CAs don't cooperate with BYOD

[WaffleMonster]

Good luck walking friends and family through installing a private CA's root certificate onto each phone, tablet, laptop, or handheld video game console that they have brought to your home in order to play the videos stored on your NAS. There were plans at some time to make even the Fullscreen API secure-only, meaning any video played from a NAS over cleartext HTTP would have distracting always-on borders around it.

There seems to be a certain amount of ambiguity in the assumptions.

TFA implied time limited network outage in which case TLS does not have to be affected in the first place rendering parents comments irrelevant. Certs with three year validity periods can easily be purchased for something on the order of $10/year. Those depending on LE might be affected with the 3 month validity period depending on the particulars of outage yet this is a deficiency of LE not TLS. Alternatives to LE are readily available and technology itself (TLS) does not stop working without Internet connectivity. The reality is if you have already purchased a domain for your internal network and run your own DNS that $30 for 3 year DV cert isn't a big deal.

My assumption with respect to parents remarks as I interpreted them were intended for long term alternate reality where Internet does not exist for years or forever. In that case managing PKI manually if you really care to bother with it at all entails a certain management overhead in my view would not be unrealistic given the circumstances. There is software and documentation readily available for managing trusted certificates on most platforms. This is done routinely in corporate environments and isn't that big a deal.

With regards to NAS video on mobiles and consoles the hypothetical with regards to full screen display of videos is not actually valid. Nobody obtains certs or bothers with TLS just to play videos from home file servers. The few that care are probably capable of loading a cert.

Re:Private CAs don't cooperate with BYOD

[tepples]

The reality is if you have already purchased a domain for your internal network

Most homeowners have not.

Nobody obtains certs or bothers with TLS just to play videos from home file servers.

Until web browser publishers stop allowing use of Fullscreen API in cleartext HTTP documents. (See citations in my reply to Anonymous Coward.)

Short answer: Too many

[RogueWarrior65]

The trend seems to be towards more cloud-based apps than platform-specific, local apps. It illustrates a huge disconnect between developers living in Silicon Valley or other major urban centers where blazing fast and totally reliable internet access is practically guaranteed and the rest of the world. Take, for example, mapping apps. Sure, they work great and you can get satellite imagery as long as your internet connection doesn't suck. But when you need to use it for matters of public safety e.g. search & rescue, being able to work offline is crucial. Of course, you'll get a cadre of urban dwellers who will scoff at anyone who live where they don't and believe that nobody should be allowed to live or even roam around outside their precious urban environment. Here's the reality: not everybody thinks like urbanites do and nothing gives them the right to dictate how everyone else should live.

Be careful what you wish for

[Archon]

"I want to see a complete list of software and devices that become completely unusable without a live internet connection."

And I want a pony. The entire list of this would be longer than the OP ever imagined or cared to know. The internet runs on a hierarchy of interrelated software platforms and applications we never even see.

Fullscreen to go HTTPS-only because phishing

[tepples]

Are your family and friends even going to CARE to try to connect to your network if the internet is down.

Yes, because with the Internet down, at least you have some entertainment stored on your NAS that visitors can view together. This could, for example, include a mirror of Wikipedia's best articles (those in GA, A, and FA classes).

There were plans at some time to make even the Fullscreen API secure-only

Of course you could just have plaintext HTTP enabled on your NAS for media access.

That's possible but impractical once browsers make HTTPS mandatory for using the Fullscreen API in documents served from anywhere but localhost. (The LAN is not localhost.) From the Secure Contexts spec, section 4.3 "Risks associated with non-secure contexts":

The ability to manipulate a user agent’s native UI in some way which removes, obscures, or manipulates details relevant to a user’s understanding of their context. [FULLSCREEN] is a good example.

A proof of concept for phishing using the Fullscreen API exists.

Re:EA Origin

[drinkypoo]

You can't install a Steam "Backup" without Steam installed, and if the game has Steam DRM,

any Steam DRM-protected title

You don't need steam to play your games, just navigate to the install directory and launch the executable. If it's using steam as drm method the game won't launch

That was a long-winded and contrary way for you to say "yes, you're right."

Re:Windows 10

[Falos]

That's pretty much what their support would happily tell you, yes.

Re:Chromebook, Android

[HiThere]

Well, if they do all they'll get is a bunch of phone numbers, because to me it's just a phone.

PS/PDF > PCL > shit

[DrYak]

PCL is fine, as an output language. It's often interpreted faster than Postscript, which means you get your print jobs quicker. But it's absolutely mandatory that a printer speak at least PCL if not also Postscript, and not just some bullshit proprietary language for which there's no support.

Yup. In my opinion :

Best option:
- Postscript (and some printer can even accept the specific variant of postscript on which PDF is based)
It's the most widespread and tested.
That's the case of HP and lot of rebadged laser printers.

Best alternative :
- PCL
It very well supported.
(It was the useful fall back on our multifunction Canon)

Then :
- horrible proprietary bullshit. E.g.: UFR-II
(the native bullshit of said multifunction Canon. Canon officially provides some half functional code for Linux consisting of a proprietary blob and the code source of a broken wrapper that can half work if you beat it enough with a compiler).
The weirdest part is that the embed server handles PDF very well for everything else (e.g.: for storing scans), but not for printing. It's either the proprietary bullshit or PCL.

You're much more likely to find the former on network connections (LPD, IPP, sometime even an embed webserver that can accept PDF uploads)
You can find either PS or PCL on parallel ports of laser printers.
You'll most definitely find bullshit format on USB ports, specially on inkjet printers (which anyway won't make any sense economically, once you factor in the price of cartridges, so forget about them)

Very few!

[antdude]

That is why I try free samplers and test without network connections if they are non-Internet softwares. I can understand if the softwares need Internet, but not for the offline ones that do not need Internet. If these non-Internet softwares do not work without Internet, then I try to avoid them. I also block many softwares with the firewall outbound rules. I lock them down! I might allow if they need to be activated online, but I block after! I avoid those online subscriptions and DRM services too! Frak them!

Re:Windows 10

[Opportunist]

Who asks MS support? That's like asking an Apple genius.

Re: Outside of my Roku?

[LifesABeach]

Don't panic.

Xbox One (and I assume, PS4)

[Ezza]

Some time ago my friend bought an xbox one and a few games. I helped her set it up.
1. You can't use it at all before activating online
2. You can't use it at all before downloading and installing a mandatory 5GB+ update.
3. When you put a game in for the first time, you can't play the game until you download a mandatory 5GB update for the game.

So it took over 5 hours from plugging in that MS P.O.S. before we could play a single game, and that was with a half decent ADSL2 internet connection...

I haven't used a PS4 but I guess it's the same. My PS3 and PS2 just work with no net...