Slashdot Mirror


Sexual Harassment In Tech Is As Old As the Computer Age (ieee.org)

Tekla Perry writes: Historian Marie Hicks, speaking at the Computer History Museum talks about how women computer operators and programmers were driven out of the industry, gives examples of sexual harassment dating back to the days of the Colossus era, and previews her next research. "It's all a matter of power, Hicks pointed out -- and women have never had their share of it," reports IEEE Spectrum. "Women dominated computer programming in its early days because the field wasn't seen as a career, just a something someone could do without a lot of training and would do for only a short period of time. Computer jobs had no room for advancement, so having women 'retire' in their 20s was not seen as a bad thing. And since women, of course, could never supervise men, Hicks said, women who were good at computing ended up training the men who ended up as their managers. But when it became clear that computers -- and computer work -- were important, women were suddenly pushed out of the field."

Hicks has also started looking at the bias baked into algorithms, specifically at when it first crossed from human to computer. The first example she turned up had "something to do with transgender people and the government's main pension computer." She says that when humans were in the loop, petitions to change gender on national insurance cards generally went through, but when the computer came in, the system was "specifically designed to no longer accommodate them, instead, to literally cause an error code to kick out of the processing chain any account of a 'known transsexual.'"

439 comments

  1. Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When you redefine sexual harassment as any unwanted attempt to connect then sexual harassment is quite common indeed, and I have been sexually harassed by a number of women as well by that definition.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    1. Re:Nothing changed but the language by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, we are under the curse of Babel.

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    2. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With no statute of limitation either. I'd like to think that everything I did when I was young wasn't applicable to now since I might have "grown" some since.

    3. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Yep. And there is going to be backlash on that. Already is, as we're seeing the rise of Trump and the alt-right - forces that exist as a counter to the continuing destruction of society and language by those on the left.

      It's becoming impossible to be a man and work with women without being accused of harassment of some form. Flirting? That's now harassment. Ignoring women? Well, that's sexism. Trying to get them involved? No, that's harassment. It's a game that's impossible to win.

      As more and more men realize that there's no winning on the new SJW rules, they're going to be joining the fight against them. The SJWs pushed too far, and it's going to end up biting them in the ass.

    4. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      When you redefine sexual harassment as any unwanted attempt to connect then sexual harassment is quite common indeed, and I have been sexually harassed by a number of women as well by that definition.

      Ah yes, the attempt to downplay and dismiss the concerns of sexual harassment. After all, if they are at fault, then who even needs to worry about any of their complaints?

    5. Re:Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1, Insightful

      When you redefine sexual harassment as any unwanted attempt to connect then sexual harassment is quite common indeed, and I have been sexually harassed by a number of women as well by that definition.

      I mean sure, and if wishes were horses every beggar would ride.

      But why play games with silly redefinitions? The only people to use that definition are people complaining on internet comment boards, so it has no relation to real life.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    6. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nobody is saying that Trump is great and I can grab pussies with impunity now because a few women are vocal about their sexual repression. Trump and Moore were sick well before all this, and those of us who are well will continue to show respect while simultaneously appreciating the female form. Anyone who uses this as an excuse to justify bad behavior is doing exactly that ... seeking to justify bad behavior they were going to exhibit either way.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    7. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You might want to watch the news sometime.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    8. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      With no statute of limitation either.

      This is one thing that is horribly wrong about sexual harassment.

      Putting a limit on this would help to remove the stigma and political blowback that often comes with reporting it. It would also get rid of people coming forward with ancient sexual harassment claims that are often viewed as relevant as dragging 90-year old men into courtrooms for World War II war crimes.

    9. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Those of us who are well will continue to show respect while simultaneously appreciating the female form"

      We got a nice guy here!

    10. Re:Nothing changed but the language by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is more complex then that.
      Sexual harassment is about using your gender as a way to to pull power from someone else of a different gender.
      It isn’t about just trying to connect to a person.
      It’s a statement of I am so powerful that I can do things to you and there isn’t anything you can do to stop it.

      There isn’t a well defined line but a gray area where things can be considered differently.
      Normally the rule of thumb is if you have the authority to make someone’s life difficult from retribution of your advances then you are in the gray area. Hence why a lot of people with good guy reputations have been called out recently. Because who are they going to believe?

      As a straight male, it is sometimes tough if there is an attractive woman that you are working with, but it is important to keep your professional and personal life separate and not use your authority as a driver.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    11. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Biting them in the ass? That's sexual assault.

    12. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      First off, there's no evidence that Trump or Moore ever did the things they've been accused of. You've fallen for fake news.

      But beyond that, it hardly matters. The problem is when you try and move things too far in one direction, the backlash will often move too far in the other direction to try and compensate. Yes, there are some bad behaviors that people are willing to put up with if it means that lesser behaviors are also allowed. Being far too loose in their definition of "sexual harassment", those on the left are causing the rise of a movement that is far too limited in its definition. It's what happens when you try and clamp down on something - "the more you tighten your grip, the more will slip through your fingers."

    13. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Nobody is downplaying Moore or Trump' s sexual harassment but the dotards. That doesn't mean that the characterization of every unwanted comment as sexual harassment is right either. If the woman indicate that they did not appreciate the comment and the man (or woman) apologizes and ceases the behavior it isn't harassment, it is a single incedent.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    14. Re:Nothing changed but the language by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you are too stupid to know when you are getting in the gray zone where harassment could be considered then you really should stay out of society. Just because that woman is friendly doesn’t mean there is anything more from it. It isn’t like in the work environment we are hugging and touching the other guys or rating their sexual assets. We can focus on work. We can have friendly relations with employees without crossing that line.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    15. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sexual harassment is about using your gender as a way to to pull power from someone else of a different gender.

      No, its mostly just an inappropriate attempt to get laid.

    16. Re: Nothing changed but the language by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 2

      the dotards
      or, you know, anyone who sees the pattern in the witch hunt

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    17. Re:Nothing changed but the language by swb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ah yes, the attempt to downplay and dismiss the concerns of sexual harassment. After all, if they are at fault, then who even needs to worry about any of their complaints?

      It's not that any of the headline-grabbing complaints of sexual harassment aren't all legitimate harassment if they're true as described.

      But it does seem like there are a lot of women who make a big deal about "being looked at" or other similar non-contact/non-verbal behavior as some kind of harassment. I don't think that challenging "being looked at" as an arbitrary and excessive definition of harassment is the same as denying sexual harassment exists.

      Humans are sexual animals and reproduction is principal drive. Mate selection is driven significantly by visually identifiable physical attributes -- hips, bust, and so on, for example. It's just not realistic to expect that the human reproduction system is going to be switched off like a light switch.

      In some ways, women are right -- certain "looks" by men really do amount to a kind of instinctive evaluation of women's suitability as a reproductive partner, but much of this isn't really anything remotely like a conscious choice to harass a woman. A lot of it is a reflexive response to a physical stimulus, such as the prominence and definition of breasts and hips/bottom in a woman's dress.

      I realize this can be framed as "blaming women for how they dress" but in some ways that's exactly what it boils down to. Women's fashions aren't designed by women looking to minimize male reproductive instincts, they're designed by people who often look to maximize women's body characteristics, including busts and hips. Ask yourself why so many lesbians dress "like men" -- there maybe some kind of political choice in wanting to look like a mechanic, but there's definitely an aspect where they are explicitly choosing not to define their appearance in terms of reproductive appeal.

      And the issue is further blurred by a certain narcissism inherent in many women -- they *want* to "look pretty", aka be visually appealing. I mean, if you're trying to be visually appealing and you choose the apparel that does so by highlighting your physical attributes which also highlight your reproductive advantages, why exactly were you expecting a man to never look at you in any way that suggested they recognized those same physical attributes?

      I shouldn't have to end this little screed with this, but I will for the reactionaries anyway -- NONE of this justifies coercive or any kind of unwanted physical contact. I am ONLY explaining and critiquing the common and fairly narrow cases of women who complain that "being looked at" is a kind of harassment.

    18. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Xyrus · · Score: 1

      You're the only one redefining it that way. There's a rather large difference between chatting someone up and having them eventually say "Sorry, I'm not interested in you that way," and you going on your merry way, and grabbing someone tits/ass/pussy, masturbating in front of them after locking the door so they can't get out, and trying to force them into some sex act or lose their job.

      Take a hint. No means no. If a woman has made it clear she is not interested in you, that doesn't mean start sending her pictures of your junk.

      --
      ~X~
    19. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      With no statute of limitation either.

      This is one thing that is horribly wrong about sexual harassment.

      Putting a limit on this would help to remove the stigma and political blowback that often comes with reporting it.

      Nope. It would do absolutely nothing to remove the stigma and blowback that comes with reporting it. There's still people who insist that the only legitimate rape is something that somehow prevents pregnancy.

      Sorry, but there's a lot of things that are HORRIBLY WRONG about sexual harassment. It's a long list.

      It would also get rid of people coming forward with ancient sexual harassment claims that are often viewed as relevant as dragging 90-year old men into courtrooms for World War II war crimes.

      Been there, done that.

      And we'll do it again until the last Nazi is dead, and even then, they'll still be anathema.

      And we'll also declare the falsely accused to be innocent.

      Don't like it? Tough.

    20. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      First off, there's no evidence that Trump or Moore ever did the things they've been accused of. You've fallen for fake news.

      Thank you komrade, your attempt at deflection has been noted and you can go away now.

      PGOTUS confessed. We have it on tape. We've all heard it and BillyBob Bush has confirmed its authenticity.

      As far as Moore is concerned, IMO where there's smoke, there's fire. By your standard, there's no evidence that Franken did any of the things he has been accused of either. But we'll wait for the trials just the same.

    21. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ok? and that is not alright either.

      unless this is just more whiny virtue signaling from the right

    22. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Harassment no, Discrimination Yes. No different from Japanese flower girls who are expected to marry or leave.These days there is another discrimination against whities and greybeards, much better to be Indian on a visa,

      I wanted to be a facilitator in an Agile role. I notice ALL those roles are now good looking women with a penchant for ponytails and 6 point Excel spreadsheets and are fast at multitasking and whipping off IM's and sms between team members who have forgotten how to talk or interact. They are glued to their mobiles, and network very fast. They also fail to bill for overtime.

      Personally I think those women are smarter: they know programming is a career gutter, and jockey for easy harassment money.

    23. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the woman indicate that they did not appreciate the comment and the man (or woman) apologizes and ceases the behavior it isn't harassment, it is a single incedent.

      And if the man does it 10 times a week, to a different woman each time, it's 10 single incidents.
      And if the woman gets 10 unwanted comments a week, from a different man each time, its 10 single incidents.

      And if 10 men do it, and 1 woman does it, that means it's okay for everyone to do it.
      Also, its especially okay for men in positions of power, who are able to retaliate, to make such advances on their subordinates.

    24. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody is downplaying Moore or Trump' s sexual harassment but the dotards.

      While I cannot disagree that Moore and Trump can qualify as dotards at the moment, their own personal histories reflect a long-standing pattern of character that began in their youth, so I cannot ascribe the mere onset of senility to their current state of character.

      And like it or not, their supporters are a widespread group that ranges from ages and backgrounds, they can't simply rely on ignorance and miseducation, many of them have made a willful choice for their malignant behavior.

      Sorry. Your choice of words is poor. It doesn't reflect on the situation with sufficient illumination.

      That doesn't mean that the characterization of every unwanted comment as sexual harassment is right either.

      You've wrung your hands over that already, and rather than resolve any valid complaints you might have, due to the adoption of it by the aforementioned as their own defense, now you have a problem to deal with.

      Namely, that you will be taken as dismissive, so enjoy the path you have to walk.

      If the woman indicate that they did not appreciate the comment and the man (or woman) apologizes and ceases the behavior it isn't harassment, it is a single incedent.

      And if that happened, it would be fine, but what if the man(or woman) festers in resentment at the temerity of the complimented to reject the approach? Then that colors their whole view to what? Ignoring complaints that didn't fit their stringent standards, or even blaming the most misbegotten victims?

      This happens too. You really should make a show of your consideration of that side to the problem.

      For all your frustration, there are other people who you frustrate as well.

    25. Re:Nothing changed but the language by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Then it is your fault for being stupid for not realizing you are in the wrong environment for such actions. However I expect that is why we often have two side of the story where both are telling the truth.
      But for physical violence cases the argument I didn’t mean for that punch to kill, doesn’t make the person who punched the other guy innocent of wrongdoing.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    26. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, Trump openly talking about his sexually abusive behavior started a "witch hunt".

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    27. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You should probably read the article and get back to us. The author claims a single untoward comment qualifies.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    28. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not only "alright", it is literally why we are alive today. If our parents made no unwanted advances they never would have found the wanted ones.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    29. Re: Nothing changed but the language by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      This should be a criteria for judging whether or not something is sexual harassment.
      If, given the same context, the victims' wanted partner acted the same way, would it have also been unwanted?
      If it would; it's sexual harassment, otherwise it would have just been a failed attempt at flirtation; perhaps unwanted but not illegal or bad in any way.
      (Obviously; being a husband is a different context than being a stranger).

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    30. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      First off, there's no evidence that Trump or Moore ever did the things they've been accused of...

      You can easily claim that the people are lying. You can easily claim that there is a vast conspiracy. However, human testimony is clearly evidence and there are plenty of independent people who have separately claimed that both Trump and Moor indulged in illegal assults. There is, in other words, plenty of evidence. That you state there is none just shows that you have a conclusion you wish to reach and you will adjust the evidence until it matches your wishes. Association with your ilk is one of the best cases against Trump and Moore's innocence.

    31. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you redefine sexual harassment as any unwanted attempt to connect then sexual harassment is quite common indeed

      I suggest that sexual harassment laws should be repealed. These laws didn't even exist until the 1980's or 1990's. Anything that is truly harassing can be prosecuted under ordinary (non-sexual) harassment law.

    32. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      PGOTUS confessed. We have it on tape.

      Confessed to what? Consensual relations? Why do you care. There's no evidence that he ever did what he was talking about, they would have been consensual anyway (that's what "let you do it" means), and besides, it was just typical locker room bragging.

      By your standard, there's no evidence that Franken did any of the things he has been accused of either.

      There are literally photos of it. He took photos of himself groping sleeping women. It doesn't get much more clear-cut than that.

      There is absolutely no evidence of Trump or Moore ever doing anything wrong. Ever.

    33. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And if you're not sure what her intentions are and ask, then it's sexual harassment if you're wrong and a date if you're right.

    34. Re: Nothing changed but the language by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1

      You're an insane person.

      First, he was recorded behind closed doors.
      Secondly, he was speaking about women who are paid for sexual service and are therefore willing.

      So there is no abuse.

      Yeah why don't you go down to the strip club and tell those women that they are being abused and to call the police.

      It's an absolute witch hunt. There is NO EVIDENCE. Do you not get that? That's the characterizing feature. NO EVIDENCE, ONLY HEARSAY. By God you're a stupid animal.

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    35. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but no. Most of us have already suffered lifetimes under oppression of these alpha males. Not going to cry one drop of tear over their demise.
      This goes beyond gender, and is about oppression, but just about gender inequality.
      It's just that nobody listened (those who could were alphas themselves), so it's going to go full retard onwards and nobody can stop it.
      But for us, it's been retarded already, so we've got nothing to lose.
      Just bringing the popcorn. We're way beyond caring at this point.

      Captcha: unguided

    36. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm saying Trump is great.

    37. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember CNN is fake news. I repeat: CNN is fake news. Deal with it!

    38. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Confessed to what? Consensual relations? Why do you care. There's no evidence that he ever did what he was talking about, they would have been consensual anyway (that's what "let you do it" means), and besides, it was just typical locker room bragging.

      Seriously? Forcing yourself on another person is now consensual?

      “I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn’t get there. And she was married.”

      “I did try and f--k her. She was married.”

      By your standard, there's no evidence that Franken did any of the things he has been accused of either.

      There are literally photos of it. He took photos of himself groping sleeping women.

      That's patently absurd. You can clearly see that his hands aren't touching her and you damn well know it.

      There is absolutely no evidence of Trump or Moore ever doing anything wrong. Ever.

      I won't presume to insult your intelligence by suggesting that you actually believe what you just wrote but either way, you just admitted that you put party before everything and that you bring zero integrity to this discussion.

    39. Re:Nothing changed but the language by gweihir · · Score: 0

      Indeed. I am sick and tired of all these pseudo-stories where basically some women did not object to the act but to who was doing it. If you behave and dress like you want male attention then then of course you can reject those that do not fit your target criteria, but you _cannot_ claim "sexual harassment" if some that do not fit you criteria try. No man can know in advance what you are looking for. And if some man goes a bit to far, the slap to the face is a tried-and-true way to get your rejection across. It seems women are turning into children that cannot fend for themselves at all these days. Have some backbone and stop blaming the world for things you do not like.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    40. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. And there is going to be backlash on that. Already is, as we're seeing the rise of Trump and the alt-right - forces that exist as a counter to the continuing destruction of society and language by those on the left.

      Bullshit.
      No-one is supporting Trump because of that. If that was the reasons there would have been plenty of other choices.
      The reason people support Trump specifically is because he promised to throw out Muslims and Mexicans. (And that his supporters are dumb enough to think that someone who has been known for being a liar for decades suddenly would start keeping his promises.)

    41. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it's a free market and you have no right to work.

      Get it or get lost.

    42. Re:Nothing changed but the language by lucm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We can have friendly relations with employees without crossing that line.

      Unfortunately that's no longer for you to decide where the line is. Most people know that pulling out your dick in front of your intern is unacceptable, but what about touching the bare skin on the back when you take a group selfie? or what about complimenting a coworker on their outfit? or what about walking around in your bathing suit at a company pool party? It depends.

      Just like male teachers cannot afford to be alone with a student (female or not), it has become somewhat a gamble to be alone with a female coworker. It's even now risky to have sex with someone you met in a bar while both are drunks, because consent is becoming subjective.

      What's left? Only meet women while witnesses you both trust are present, only engage in relationships under a clear contract, and never drink. Looks like ISIS is onto something.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    43. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if they're asking for it...

    44. Re:Nothing changed but the language by sls1j · · Score: 1

      If you make it a point not to include sex as part of a relationship until after your married then you don't have to worry about that. You make it clear that you want to know the person as a person, no sexual pressure, no harassment.

    45. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      âoeIt's becoming impossible to be a man and work with womenâ

      Overstate much? As a man who has spent the past 25 years working in an organization that is over 50% female (including 4/5ths of senior management), I call bullshit. Neither I nor any of my male colleagues have ever been accused of sexual harassment. It is extremely possible to work with women if you arenâ(TM)t an asshole.

    46. Re:Nothing changed but the language by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are trying to make a blanket statement to characterize every claim of sexual harassment and are implicitly placing guilt on men for every objection that the fundamentally and increasingly irrational feminist social justice warriors bring up.

      The problem with the honest (but misguided) sexual harassment accusers is that the "gray zone" is that it is constantly being expanded with double standards. The concept creep is rampant.

      The real problem is the dishonest or externally misguided accusers who take advantage of the fact that there is absolutely no check or balance against claims of abuse. These matters are being judged emotionally and not objectively.
      The only "evidence" submitted in almost every case is the testimony of the accuser herself, with no corroboration for that specific alleged event.
      Multiple accusers are not necessarily credible either as almost all of the time they still have no corroboration for the specific alleged event they are purporting.

      The most tired excuse is "well the male predator only strikes when they're alone together, so how are we supposed to get them into trouble unless our mere accusations are empowered by the mob and/or the courts?" Sorry, you have no proper recourse whatsoever nor do you deserve any. You can't make a mockery of justice because you have poor judgement. Don't be alone with a man you don't want an advance from. This has been the rule for all time. In every case, even if you are alone in a room with a man for some business purpose, there are other people nearby so you could not be said to be alone with this man.

      Stop blaming other people for your inability to function in the real world. If some one comes too near you, back away or otherwise use body language to repudiate. If they still come toward you, leave to go to an area with many people and tell some of them about it. There is no reason to, and you have no right to, go to a public platform and accuse this person of some wrongdoing. They have done nothing morally or ethically wrong. They have expressed their desire, and if that is wrong by social convention the scope of recourse is by right limited to the social situation in which it occurred.
      If you prevent an unwanted advance, you have not been attacked. You have no right to feel attacked. And you have no right to a platform to speak to the public about the event.
      We cannot let common social interactions become arbitrated by mob and then legislated by government. It robs our society of its strength, it props it up when it has no strength of its own.

      There is no excuse not to stand up for yourself. Unless you want the social validation of all that attention on you. Which is no doubt what motivates many of these accusers.

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    47. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newsflash: People will use whatever advantage they have against whatever disadvantage their competition has have to get ahead in life.

      It's not new, and you can't change it. It's in our nature, and you'd better adapt to it or you're going to get steamrolled.

    48. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By you definition quite a lot of aspies should stay out of society. My first "relationship" ended when the woman in question told me she would get a restraining order if I wouldn't stay away. Until then our "relationship" had in my mind been quite one-sided, but I had chalked it up as human courting behavior and her playing hard to get.

      I have had more successful (even multi-year) relationships since then, and I now realize that my knowledge was (and still is) sorely lacking.

    49. Re:Nothing changed but the language by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      You make it clear that you want to know the person as a person

      Sex is part of being a person.

    50. Re: Nothing changed but the language by BronsCon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And if the man does it 10 times a week, to a different woman each time, it's 10 single incidents.
      And if the woman gets 10 unwanted comments a week, from a different man each time, its 10 single incidents.

      Correct, though I know that was just a lame attempt at reductio ad absurdum. If a woman isn't interested in one man, that's no indication that she's not interested in another. What you wrote works in the other direction, as well. Yes, women can (and do) harass men; and men do, in fact, get hit on at school and in the workplace.

      Going back a few years, to 1999, I was being harassed nearly daily by a girl at school. Every day during lunch she would make advances in front of over a dozen other kids sitting at our table and every day I would make it clear I had no interest. After a couple months of this, she decided she would get back at me for rejecting her by flipping it around and claiming I had harassed her. It did not go well for me; and the experience has made it difficult for me to take a woman's claim of harassment at face value. Yes it happens, yes it's awful, but underhanded shit like what happened to me also happens. In the end, there was justice and it went much worse for her, but it's still not an experience anyone should ever have.

      Basically, what happened is that I was called into the office and there was the principal, counselor, and a cop waiting for me. They read through a list of things she had said to me (that she claimed I had said to her -- and some of them were very obviously said by her as they were things a girl might do to a boy or might ask a boy do to do her, worded as the girl would have said them) and asked what I had to say about it. My response was to ask for a pen and paper, telling them I had a written statement to offer. I then wrote the names of everyone who sat at the same lunch table as us on a regular basis, handed it to them, and told them those people would be able to back up her story if it was true.

      Wording it that way was my only mistake, as they took it as an admission of guilt and suspended me. Home life was, let's just say, not good during the following 3 days before they decided they should maybe actually interview some of the kids on my list. They interviewed a total of three before they had heard enough; one of those three was a nerdy little shit (who I'd never really paid attention to by then, but who later became one of my best friends) who carried a tape recorder around and had a habit of recording things for no particular reason. He, of course, recorded lunches, which meant he recorded what actually happened, proof that she was the one who said the things she claimed I had said, and proof that I had tried to put a stop to it.

      In the end, I got a shitty apology from the school that did nothing to make up for the trauma I suffered at home (not the girl's fault, I blame my father for his reaction) but she got expelled. Not for the harassment, mind you, but for the false claim.

      And that's how it should be, really; the punishment for falsely claiming someone harmed you should be much worse than the punishment for what you're claiming. And I mean provably false, as in there is some actual proof that things didn't happen the way it is claimed they happened; of course, the accused simply being found innocent shouldn't be enough to trigger false charges prosecution. Presumption of innocence and all that, you know?

      And if 10 men do it, and 1 woman does it, that means it's okay for everyone to do it.

      Now this is a fine example of reductio ad absurdum against "whataboutism", good for you. I mean, you think you're arguing against natural and respectful interaction between males and females, wherein one backs down when it is made clear the other has no interest in them, but whataboutism is wrong and needs to be put to an end, so thank you for arguing against it, even if you think you're doing something else.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    51. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "As a straight male, it is sometimes tough if there is an attractive woman that you are working with, but it is important to keep your professional and personal life separate and not use your authority as a driver."

      Oh dear. Where do I start?

      My serious civilian work career began in 1976, servicing office machines. I was at a bench for two years, and finally sent out into the field for some specialized work. I had little interaction with the users. But after four years I began servicing some equipment at the client's site, and while these were mostly attorneys and doctors, I dealt with their secretaries, receptionists, and wives. I learned quickly to treat these women with respect and even deference. Or else I would find my work much more difficult, and less profitable. This business decision served me well when I began servicing typewriters. Then I was working directly with women, as the users, and proper manners were critical.

      This also meant that in the city I was in, where the population wasn't quite large enough to hide from everyone, I encountered clients regularly in nightclubs. For other reasons, this was frequently the case.

      I did not make any attempt to establish personal relationships with clients, at any level. Ever. For 30 years.

      I knew several other men working in the field that didn't take that approach. Most had no obvious trouble, but some did. And I sometimes went into their clients' businesses to take over because they were persona non grata. Lost jobs and deeply hurt feelings were in their wakes. Unnecessary. I wasn't celibate, I just chose to separate work and personal life, and in that field (later to encompass word processors, personal computers, and networking) a man would work closely with women in the office, with the inevitable tensions that developed. Avoiding that could only aid your career. Succumbing to temptation or even normal attraction could not be counted on to enhance your work. No point for me.

      Now, 40 years after beginning my work, I recognize so many signs of the strained relationships between men and women in the workplace.

      - I never noticed how some women literally cowered in the corner of the elevator until I finished a rape and sexual assault class. A shock.
      - Some women in offices were deathly afraid of leaving work. They had men in their lives, exes etc., who would wait for them.
      - Working closely with anyone forms a bond. For men, this is fairly well understood. For women working with men, not so much. Many a mistake made because the project was completed and the thrill of success lead to the lust for validation.
      - Divorce has, among other things, left women in vulnerable positions, having children as a single parent can lead them to accept men they would not normally take into their lives. Divorce has also led some men to believe they have carte blanche to treat divorced women as their rightful prey.
      - Men are, by nature, aggressive, and treating women as prey isn't new. Men in power tend to dominate in all parts of their lives. Women dealing with powerful men should be counseled to take care they are not seen as legitimate targets. And yes, this means working for a powerful man is a hazard for a woman. Just like working around dangerous machinery, and for the same reasons. You can't blame the machine for doing what it is designed to do. Same for the powerful, irresponsible man. He is designed wrong. Fix the design, or leave it to those who can handle the danger.
      - Working with women teaches you a different ethic as a man than you would have working just with men. It's a good thing. Having a woman as a leader has for me been incredibly good. I work for a corporation that now has about 60% of more women in middle management, and about 50% in senior management. While my immediate team is all men, we serve multiple teams that are dominated by women, both higher and lower levels of the organization. We also have a variety of races (at least six I can count quickly) and nationalities (eight certainly, and probable elev

    52. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. I agree completely. One way to solve these problems would be to set very specific rules about how a women advertises her availability, and about what sort of sexual advances are allowed if a woman is advertising her availability. Legally, the act of advertising availability would give consent to be approached.

      The problem is that feminists refuse to accept such standards. I suggest that we should ignore the feminists, and set the standards anyway.

    53. Re: Nothing changed but the language by sphealey · · Score: 1, Informative

      - - - - - https://www.usmagazine.com/cel...
      Several former Miss Teen USA contestants alleged to BuzzFeed News that Donald Trump walked in on them while they were changing.

      Four women who competed in the annual event in 1997 claimed that the real estate tycoon — who had partial ownership of the Miss Universe, Miss USA and Miss Teen USA pageants from 1996 until 2015 — barged in uninvited while the contestants (some as young as 15) were not fully dressed.

      “I remember putting on my dress really quick because I was like, Oh, my god, there’s a man in here,” former Miss Teen USA Vermont Mariah Billado recounted.

      According to Billado, the Republican presidential nominee, now 70, said something along the lines of “Don’t worry ladies, I’ve seen it all before.”

    54. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Stop Making shit up. He was talking about no such thing. That doesn't even make sense. "Hey guys ... Here is something I bet you didn't know. Prostitutes will let you grab them by the pussy if you pay them!" What a stupid thing to make up about the story.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    55. Re: Nothing changed but the language by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      For all your frustration, there are other people who you frustrate as well.

      If we're being real here, and let's please be real here, the frustration on all sides is ultimately sourced from those (men and women) who harass and those (also men and women) who make false accusations of harassment. The frustration just happens to be aimed in every direction because that's what intensely frustrated people do when they don't know who to direct their frustration at; and we're all intensely frustrated.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    56. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      .... you are posting as AC, so there is that.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    57. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you are too stupid to know when you are getting in the gray zone where harassment could be considered then you really should stay out of society. Just because that woman is friendly doesnâ(TM)t mean there is anything more from it.

      Just because that woman is friendly doesn't mean there isn't anything more to it either. Unfortunately, I'm seeing a lot of cases where it's considered OK if a woman wants the attention, harassment if she doesn't. You cannot define what is/isn't OK based on how someone's reaction after the event has been precipitated.

      Certain things, mostly involving touching, are obviously crossing the line. But when it comes to non-physical behavior, the rules need to be clearly set beforehand and on both sides. That is, not only do the rules need to define what is sexual harassment, they also need to define what isn't sexual harassment. What am I allowed to do and be assured I will not be accused of sexual harassment? I don't see the latter being done; and in fact I frequently see sexual harassment literature state that anything could be considered harassment if it's unwanted attention (i.e. definition based on someone's reaction after the fact). Well, if you define harassment that way, the only option if you want to be completely safe from harassment charges is to avoid interacting with women at all. Which means excluding them from your work. Except then you're be raked across the coals for discriminating against women.

      The rules as they currently exist in some places are set up so it's impossible to comply with them.

      It isnâ(TM)t like in the work environment we are hugging and touching the other guys or rating their sexual assets.

      Well duh. Two men having sexual relations doesn't propagate the species. It's not done because it's not necessary for the survival of the human race.

      Men and women having sexual relations is necessary for the survival of the human race. Consequently, some form of sexual communication (be it innuendo, or just asking for a date) is required. You cannot retroactively define that as being sexual harassment if it turns out the woman isn't interested in a date. To do so is to orchestrate the end of the human race.

      The fundamental problem here is that it's traditionally the man's role to make the first move - to be the one who makes his interest known to the woman. If all women would agree to dump that tradition, then there would be no problem. The introductory behavior between men and women would be symmetrical, and we could set down a clear set of rules of what is and isn't acceptable behavior. Unfortunately, a large fraction of women (maybe even a majority) want to keep with that tradition, and expect the man to be the one to make the first move. As long as that expectation exists, men will express their interest to women. And just by chance alone they will sometimes express their interest to women who aren't interested. You can't have one without the other. (Alternatively, you could just define verbally expressing one's interest the first time as not-sexual harassment. Then there's a clear avenue for men to express their interest without running afoul of harassment guidelines. And if the woman rejects him, then no more advances are to be made by the man.*)

      And yes I know you're not supposed to enter a relationship with someone at work. While that's a nice guideline for avoiding lots of potential problems, the unfortunate reality is that it happens, and pretty often too based on the number of married couples I know who somehow met through their work.

      * Likewise, a large number of the married couples I know are together because the man persisted even after the woman rejected his initial advances. i.e. He harassed her until she eventually grew to like him and ended up marrying him. There'

    58. Re:Nothing changed but the language by arth1 · · Score: 2

      Sexual pressure is always there. It's part of being a man.
      Our gonads and genes do tell us to pursue any low-risk avenue of copulation. We do not follow our urges because not adhering to the societal norms would be counter-productive, but we always have them.

      A man will inherently seek (a) pair bonding: have offspring being able to take over his legacy, and (b) promiscuity: to have as many viable offspring as possible Men are drawn to youth and health in sexual partners because any woman can only produce and raise a small number of offspring.
      A woman will inherently seek: (a) pair bonding: seek a man who will help raise her children, and (c) infidelity: affairs with the "best" men available, because her children does not have to be his. A woman will be very picky in choosing the best available partners, but looks for the most power, status and health for her lovers. For women, age is not a concern for trysts, only for pair bondings.
      (b) and (c) are different, in that promiscuity hurts a female partner far less than infidelity hurts a male partner. Raising another man's children and be barred for some time from producing heirs is a huge detriment for a man. While a man being unfaithful has very little impact on the female, unless it threatens her family by the man forming new bonds.

      These behaviors are inherent, because they make sense from an evolutionary point of view for species that live in large groups not ruled by a single bull. We share these traits with several species of birds, for example.
      That does not mean that the traits are desirable from a human perspective. Especially not after availability of contraceptives have given humans more control over their reproductive choices. But it is not unexpected that we see people who cannot overcome their baser instincts. Whether it's married women having an affair with a more powerful man than her husband, or men who lust after (almost invariably) young women.
      Most of us adhere to the norms of the society we live in, because that's ultimately what gives us the best opportunities. But it's a struggle with small rewards.

    59. Re:Nothing changed but the language by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What you say is absolutely true, but changing cultural norms also play a role in the "epidemic" behavior we're seeing.

      I'm a horology geek, so I recently pulled up the movie Thunderball on Netflix to check out the exact details of the famous (among watch geeks) "Bond strap". Rather than search through the movie I decided to simply watch the whole thing. Now I grew up in the 60s, and I've seen this movie several times, but it's been maybe 30 years since the last time. Watching this time, all I could think was, "holy cow, Bond is rape-y."

      The thing is it wasn't so long ago that unchaperoned young women were tacitly assumed to be looking for or at least open to sex. That assumption was never so strict here in the US as in places like Italy, which is why so many American women travelling there were surprised to be mobbed on the street by grabbing men. But even here every woman was taught by her mother never to be alone with a man, and if she did she had to be prepared to slap him, which was usually effective but sometimes a dangerous escalation.

      The reason that Bond's behavior when he forces himself on his physiotherapist wasn't immediately perceived by audiences as reprehensible was because as a woman in a job that sometimes required working with men she'd have been perceived as fair game for aggressive sexual overtures when she was alone with one.

      That doesn't work when half the women in the workforce are women. If every occasion a man and a woman had to work together was sexually charged it'd be chaos. So the norms (which were never very kind to working women) had to change. The thing is with change is that we're all in different places in that change depending on how old we are, where we live, and the kinds of organizations we've worked for.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    60. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Cederic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can't get _into_ a relationship without risking accusations of sexual harassment.

      "Want to grab a coffee?" "STOP HARASSING ME!!!"

    61. Re:Nothing changed but the language by MorePower · · Score: 1

      But sexual compatibility is a key aspect of determining whether someone would be a suitable spouse.
      Two virgins couldn't possibly asses how sexually compatible they are. They couldn't know what they themselves need, nor what they would be willing and able to do for their partner.

    62. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Cederic · · Score: 4, Informative

      It isnâ(TM)t like in the work environment we are hugging and touching the other guys

      Now that's just utter bollocks. I've been hugged by many men and women in the workplace, touched on the arms, back, shoulders and head by a lot and touched on the leg by a couple.

      Physical contact in the workplace is commonplace, for men and women.

      rating their sexual assets

      I've sat with women discussing which man from the call centre they'd like a tumble with.
      I've sat with a man that's been pointing out the male construction workers across the canal he'd like to fuck.

      Sex is part of life, and it does happen in the workplace.

      We can have friendly relations with employees without crossing that line.

      Some people can't. I've been accused of sexual harassment for holding the door open for someone; I mentioned this a few years later and someone else said they'd been reported to HR for exactly the same thing. Some women are so fucking paranoid about harassment that basic courtesies are being misinterpreted.

      If you are too stupid to know when you are getting in the gray zone where harassment could be considered then you really should stay out of society.

      Given all that, no. Society should fucking well fix itself so that the grey zone gains some clarity, because right now it's a fucking mess that's impossible to navigate.

    63. Re: Nothing changed but the language by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1

      About what story, you mental defective?
      Notice how you think and speak in negatives and don't provide an alternative positive?
      What WAS he talking about? Establish the context.

      But oh wait, you don't care about fact, because instead of acting like a human being, you act as a conduit for virtue signalling.

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    64. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your comparison of sexual harassment claims and WW2 war criminals is extraordinarily stupid.

    65. Re: Nothing changed but the language by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1

      Okay, and what does this have to do with the claim that Donald Trump declared his entitlement to commit sexual assault?

      Four women, out of how many in the room? How can you establish that he was uninvited? "Something along the lines of"? This is tabloid "journalism".

      Neat, but the context isn't established, you're cutting due process short due to your motivations and bias, you know, like they did in the witch hunts.
      You don't care about the other side of the story, therefore you do not care about justice, therefore you are a liability to civilization, besides being an insufferable annoyance to anyone with a sense of rationality.

      Seriously, these people cannot function in society, we have to form enclaves and keep these crazy bastards out and let them rot in their world of their own choosing and making.

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    66. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I can't agree with this statement. It doesn't matter if you didn't have sex, it matters if you reasonably could have had sex or could be trying to initiate sex. With the modern leftist definition of sexual harassment, which is extremely liberal with the words used, an "unwanted sexual advance" could be as little as asking a co-worker out for coffee.

    67. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Cederic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      - I never noticed how some women literally cowered in the corner of the elevator until I finished a rape and sexual assault class. A shock.

      I have, I just didn't put it down to rape or sexual assault. I also tend to give them space and show courtesy, much as I would anybody else. If they're a paranoid muppet that fears me then there's not a lot I can do about that; they can take the stairs if it's that important to them.

      - Some women in offices were deathly afraid of leaving work. They had men in their lives, exes etc., who would wait for them.

      If only there were things they could do to address this. Get help from colleagues, their management, the police, others. Oh, wait..

      Many a mistake made because the project was completed and the thrill of success lead to the lust for validation.

      And many a marriage has been started during those late nights crunching to finish. Most of us just build friendships though.

      Divorce has, among other things, left women in vulnerable positions, having children as a single parent can lead them to accept men they would not normally take into their lives

      Which fuckwit told you that? Women have full control over which men they let into their lives. I meet a lot of single mothers and they're all very choosy, and many of them are very careful about their partners and their children. Hell, I had a three month relationship with one and never met her kids (which suited me just fine).

      Meanwhile the fathers are frequently lacking contact with those kids while being forced to hand over vast sums of money to the mother. Divorce does not leave women in a vulnerable position at all, just check the fucking suicide rates and homelessness statistics post divorce by gender.

      Divorce has also led some men to believe they have carte blanche to treat divorced women as their rightful prey.

      That's possible but also hyperbolic. By 'some men' do you mean that more than three exist? Probably.

      My experience is that divorced women are much the same as any other woman, and some of them are very sexually aggressive. Others are not.

      Same for the powerful, irresponsible man. He is designed wrong. Fix the design, or leave it to those who can handle the danger.

      You really don't believe in personally responsibility. First you're telling us that women have no control, now you're telling us men have no self-control. This is no help to anybody; a manager that will use their position to take sexual advantage of their workers is dangerous even if some of those workers are able to say no.

      It shouldn't be tough if there is an attractive woman that you are working with... First, recognize it isn't about the woman being 'attractive'. It's about you being responsible, honest with yourself, and respectful. There is a way to engage a woman at work in a personal relationship, but it's difficult. And it should be. Relationships are difficult, and the effort must be balanced against the reward.

      When the attractive woman sends you IMs telling you she wants to smother you with cuddles, it gets very fucking difficult. Especially when she's much more junior, you give her work to do and HR's guidance is, "It's all down to how this makes you feel"

      That guidance is no fucking use at all when a response building a relationship could lead to being sacked for sexual harassment two hours later, but a failure to reply and respond would be reported to your manager as "doesn't support female members of staff".

      I've been in that situation. It's a fucking minefield even if you aren't trying to start a relationship.

      And, sir, you will not know if you've offended her even if you ask

      Some women can't not be offended. I've worked with a couple, and the only response is to get the fuck out of there. They're toxic and they destroy teams.

    68. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Cederic · · Score: 2

      There was no rapey input. You're being stupid.

    69. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      > Sexual harassment is about using your gender as a way to to pull power from someone else of a different gender.

      Please, review your terms. Not only do I beg to differ, I can find no example of a dictionary that agrees with this definition. Sexual harassment is not gender specific. Treating one gender differently from aanother in unjustified ways _is_ gender discrimination. If you're convinced that sexual harassment is defined by distinct genders, then I'd encourage you to review the history of same sex sexual harassment by Catholic priests recently, and by prison guards throughout history.

      In case you are being confused by some political analysis that merges those two abusive activities, there is a recent article in Scientific American at https://www.scientificamerican.... According to CDC statistics cited there, men are *more* likely to be sexually harassed, especially rape. Much of that reported rape is by women. And for both men and women who are in prison, same-sex rape is commonplace, mostly by other inmates.

    70. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Cederic · · Score: 1

      the slap to the face

      Do not assault people. The correct response to the slap to the face is a punch to the nose; do not initiate one without expecting the other.

    71. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Nice troll name for your Slashdot login. The only problem is ... You suck at trolling.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    72. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      There is nothing illegal in flirting with women.
      For a feminist any such advance is a rape, yes, but they are a sicko tribe, next to some Stone Age Saudis that keep their women in burlap bags for life.

    73. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could easily avoid all this by keeping women out of the workplace.

    74. Re:Nothing changed but the language by squiggleslash · · Score: 2

      Interesting. So because my wife thinks I'm hot, anything she allows me to do with her she must also allow Roger Ailes to do to her?

      Yes, women get to pick who touches them. Just like men do. You are not entitled to violate other people's space, and while it may be unfair you're not as "attractive" as someone who a specific woman consents to have sex with, take that up with the universe, rather than a woman who finds you threatening.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    75. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is a point in such a society where you should always always be afraid of this or that gray zone? Is it really a free society?

    76. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself, everyone supports trump because he is a man, including most women that vote for him. No woman likes nice guys.

    77. Re: Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You might want to watch the news sometime.

      Is that also some funny redefintion of "news", becuase it doesn't match reality.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    78. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution is simple. Never go to work.

    79. Re:Nothing changed but the language by hey! · · Score: 1

      Or to be entirely fair, men.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    80. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      She was just playing hard to get. You should look her up on Facebook. I'm sure 500 messages will get you into her pants. Be persistent, you were born to be together, always remember that!

    81. Re:Nothing changed but the language by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Clearly the logical solution is a socially acceptable 'wanna fuck?' gesture. I suggest the Vulcan 'peace sign', whatever the fuck it's called.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    82. Re: Nothing changed but the language by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Trump owned a modeling agency. He didn't have to pay them directly. They give sex, he gives advancement.

      It's the only reason any straight man has ever owned a modeling agency. Ever.

      They don't want to know they are 'Johns'. IIRC some rich fucks employ 'pussy coordinators', to pay the whores while maintaining the delusion they are players.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    83. Re:Nothing changed but the language by slashedteddy · · Score: 1

      You don't know where any single female person draw the line 10, 20, 30 years from now..and _then_ you'll get famous for what you did today. Maybe saying "Hi" to somebody that didn't want to hear that word from you will be counted as harrasment at that time (if it isn't already).

      Not to mention, if you and a female are alone for more than a few seconds and later on (maybe years later) you'll get on her wrong side, know that you can be accused for doing just about anything in that time..and you won't be able to prove that you're innocent.

      It wouldn't be the first time, and certainly not the last time something like that happened.

    84. Re: Nothing changed but the language by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      If you had only known about light switches and total darkness, it could have gone so much better.

      Unless of course she had stank puss. Darkness can't fix that.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    85. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I shouldn't have to end this little screed with this, but I will for the reactionaries anyway -- NONE of this justifies coercive or any kind of unwanted physical contact. I am ONLY explaining and critiquing the common and fairly narrow cases of women who complain that "being looked at" is a kind of harassment.

      Interesting that you end your post with a disclaimer where you blame potential critics for making it necessary for you to emphasize what you would find it very difficult to defend. Perhaps you might have considered a less defensive and hostile approach, like "And let me emphasize so I'm not misunderstood" instead? Or did you not realize how what you were saying would look from another perspective?

      Or perhaps, and this will take a lot of work, you might have spoken more onto the other side of things, or demonstrated a willingness to attempt to understand it by seeking some clarification yourself? Or perhaps you might have mentioned the issues of a certain narcissism possessed by many men? They want women to appreciate them, and that includes women making an effort to be sexually appealing to them? Which in turn, might lead to women thinking, what?

      I appreciate that you want to believe you have thought deeply on this subject, and you're not giving a shallow view by any means, but I think there are depths you have not plumbed as fully as you might. Then again, that's true of me, but that's purposeful, as I'm not going through your post more directly, but focusing a bit more cursory in a deliberate attempt on my part to try a more gentle approach to encourage you to shift your views on your own.

      Sorry for taking so many hours though, had things to do today.

    86. Re: Nothing changed but the language by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      Yeah, nail the crazy bitch. Great idea. That way instead of just accusing you of harassment after you piss her off, she can accuse you of rape instead. Genius!

    87. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true at all. Simply complementing a woman on her outfit can qualify as sexual harassment.

      As unpopular a notion as this is, it is true (and a matter of common experience among men in social situations): women feel flattered when attractive men complement them, and they feel insulted when unattractive men complement them. I have had young women explain this to me directly and frankly: when a man who a woman considers to be beneath her league starts flirting with her, she feels as if he is saying that she is unattractive enough to be down at his level. This is an emotional reaction, which results in her feeling harassed, which in turn can result in accusations (including legal action) from her.

      The "no sex until marriage" approach does not protect against this at all, and in fact it can make it worse. Men who take the "no sex until marriage" attitude are often seen as lacking in confidence and/or afraid of intimacy. This automatically makes them less attractive to the majority of women. It only works in a deeply religious context where ALL the men and ALL the women present already have this attitude. Only then is the playing-field level enough that the attitude is not in-and-of-itself a risk factor.

    88. Re:Nothing changed but the language by ranton · · Score: 2

      what about touching the bare skin on the back when you take a group selfie? or what about complimenting a coworker on their outfit? or what about walking around in your bathing suit at a company pool party?

      Where are these stories of people being accused of sexual harassment by touching a coworkers bare shoulder during a group picture? Or occasionally complimenting an outfit? Or wearing a conservative bathing suit at a company pool party? I haven't heard of these. Perhaps there are cases of people caressing a coworker's bare skin during a photo, or routinely complementing the outfit choices of a coworker they have repeatedly asked out, or wearing a speedo to a pool party and rubbing up against people, but these are far different than what you mentioned.

      It really isn't hard for most people who function around the opposite sex without being creepy. I'll admit there are some people who are just socially awkward, and they probably shouldn't try to read signals at work. But most of us know the difference between a touch and caressing. We know the difference between dancing at an after-hours party and grinding against someone. This really isn't rocket science.

      The only thing changing is people are talking about the horrible things men have been doing to women since probably forever, although it is now more common in the workplace since more women are working. Just be respectful and you will be fine. You are probably more likely of being killed by a drunk driver than being accused of sexual harassment when not doing anything wrong.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    89. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Everything you wrote is a fantasy nerds who live in their mother's basement have about how the world works. Models are models. Just like secretaries, waitresses, and stock brokers might sleep with someone to get ahead so too might models. Get a frigging life.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    90. Re: Nothing changed but the language by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      You didn't stop to think there was a reason I wasn't interested, did you?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    91. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Flirting is not harrassment. Have you seen any of the people coming forward lately complaining about harassment saying "he complimented my dress, it was awful!" Women are not complaining about being winked at.

      Having someone meet you in your hotel room and you turn out to be naked is not called flirting. Trying to force a kiss is not called flirting. Copping a feel from your wheelchair is not called flirting. Posting a picture of your congressional wiener is not called flirting.

    92. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normal people have a very hard time properly understanding the division of blame.

      The default conceptual model is that whenever something bad happens, there is only so much blame to go around, so the more blame one person has the less blame the other person has. Furthermore, the less blame one has, the more justified a person is.

      This model makes no sense. It is a terrible analogy of blame-as-substance. But it is very common.

      For example: the classic victim-blaming scenario of a woman who dresses provocatively and enters an environment full of alcohol and scoundrels, and playfully interacts with them, and then gets raped. People respond by saying "don't blame her one bit! She is allowed to do everything she did and she didn't do anything wrong and she didn't bring anything on herself at all!"

      But...here is the heart of my point....even if we say "her unwise actions brought this on herself," we can also still say: "the rapist is 100% guilty of rape." The degree to which the situation is her fault does not diminish the rapist's guilt at all. It certainly does not justify the rape. Not even a little bit.

      And that's the huge defensive reaction. People think that if the woman receives any blame at all, we are making excuses for the man. Like he was maybe a little bit justified and maybe deserves a lighter sentence because "she was asking for it." And that isn't the case at all; it only seems that way to people who think of blame as a finite quantity which is being divided between the two....which it absolutely is not.

      But....it's a lost battle. It is made worse by the large group of women who believe that it is the responsibility of "the world" to protect them from the consequences of their unwise decisions, such that they should all be able to dress provocatively and party wildly with dangerous men and have a perfectly reasonable expectation of complete safety. I am not sure why this attitude seems to thrive even into adulthood....but then again, much about human behavior remains a mystery to me.

    93. Re:Nothing changed but the language by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      In current events, it becomes even more odd... back-porting standards for harassment 20, 30 years. Certain things may be easy to distinguish as inappropriate, but what happens when you go back to the 60's and 70's?

      Even the jackass politician masturbating in front of the lobbyist in the bathroom at a co-ed bachelor party... I can imagine how that might have not seemed that off to him at the time in a drunken state. Don't condone it, very poor judgement, but a whole lot of one night stands also involve very poor judgement (and/or misreading of signs).

      The other thing that is an issue is there is no defense.

    94. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Not true. If you ask to go out to the movies and she says no, it's not harassment. If you don't get the hint and do this every single day, then it's crossing the line.

      Let's flip it around. Bob from accounting comes by and says "hey, you've got a nice ass", he gets beat up in the storeroom for being gay. But if a guy says this to a woman and she walks away, the response is often "What's her problem? Must be frigid."

      Rule number one. Don't go looking for nookie at work. If sparks start flying anyway, then that's fine. But be sure those are sparks and not just forced politeness.

    95. Re:Nothing changed but the language by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      With no statute of limitation either.

      The decades old accusations are mainly happening to politicians. Even there, it is mostly the hypocrisy rather than the acts themselves that have harmed them. Roy Moore positioned himself as an ultra-moral God-fearing family values conservative, so revelations that he pursued underage girls were especially damaging.

      Likewise with Al Franken. Most of his accusers said that they came forward when they heard his holier-than-thou denunciations of other abusers, when they knew he had done the same to them.

      Old accusations have also brought down some show biz people, like Bill Cosby, but I can't think of any incidents where non-public figures have been held accountable for behavior over a decade old.

    96. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no rapey, you're the rapey

    97. Re:Nothing changed but the language by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      That was the definition 5-10 years ago. It has morphed into much more; there doesn't need to be a reporting structure for it to be harassment.

    98. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      If you're in a single's club, or on tinder, and a woman seems interested, then reciprocate and show some interest back. But if your'e at work and a woman is polite, this is almost certainly because the woman is being polite. It's not difficult to just mentally mark your workplace as off-limits, especially if you seem somewhat uncertain about the complicated rules that involve social interaction.

      Everyone talks about not being able to say hello without being accused of harassment. Those are called jokes and exaggerations.

    99. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Certainly the news is full of rather extreme actions of attempting to connect, all of which are clearly harassment. However the news has not shown that "any" unwanted attempt is harassment. Celebrities and politicians have not been accused of attempting to connect by merely asking if someone wants to go for a drink or see a movie. Instead the news has been about dick pics, groping, trying to force a kiss, abuses of positions of power, and so forth.

    100. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your post is a blatant strawman fallacy! Seriously, let's break it down:

      gweihir never posted "anything your wife allows you to do to her she must allow Roger Ailes to do to her." Nor is that the logical conclusion of what he did post. He said "If you behave and dress like you want male attention, then of course you can reject those that do not fit your target criteria."

      So, the statement begins with an action on the part of the woman. Dressing and behaving like she wants male attention. If your wife goes out and dresses and behaves like she wants male attention.......(quote) "then of course she can reject those that do not fit her target criteria.

      Do you understand what that means? It means that she is still not obligated to put up with anything!. At no point did anything gweihir said imply that women are obligated (socially or legally) to accept anything at all from men. Let alone the kinds of things that such women accept from their husbands.

      Seriously, you are part of the problem. You put words into the post that were not there and twisted it into something extreme, totally failing to even acknowledge what the post actually said. And you did this on purpose.

      What point did gweihir actually make? "you cannot claim sexual harassment if some men actually try." Remember...since it has been quite a long time...that this is in the context of a woman who is deliberately inviting male attention. And then receiving it. He is saying that when a woman invites male attention, and receives male attention, she cannot then turn around and cry "sexual harassment."

      And before you go apeshit let me re-introduce obviousness: the word "try" in this context (when men try to approach a woman) does not automatically include grabbing a woman's genitalia, or feeling up her breasts, or forcing sex upon her, or kissing her. I should not have to point this out, but when talking with word-twisters like you I have no choice.

      gweihir is complaining about women who cry "sexual harassment" when men ask them out on a date, or complement them on their outfit, or use words to make a sexual innuendo. If a man continues to do this sort of thing after being rejected, then he has overstepped his bounds. But when a man responds this way (words, not ass-grabbing) to a woman who is consciously inviting it...he is not doing anything wrong.

      But people like you insist that he is. And you are wrong.

    101. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . Looks like ISIS is onto something.

      Only if you buy into the idea that the tyranny of 'infinite safety' is good for society.

    102. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh my brother - the purge is on!

    103. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you keep sucking up to the genocidaires? They will treat you as subhuman no matter how much ass you publicly kiss

    104. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      That is incorrect. He "forced a kiss", which means he kissed her and rather than pulling away she allowed it and then decided years later to object when it became de rigueur.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    105. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Reverend+Green · · Score: 0

      Sharia law is the ultimate expression of feminism.

    106. Re: Nothing changed but the language by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I assumed 'fat and ugly'.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    107. Re: Nothing changed but the language by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Mostly just not there. What's one thing you should never stick in crazy?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    108. Re: Nothing changed but the language by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Not all there, I meant. I'm not sure if autocorrect deleted it or I just didn't type it.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    109. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By your standard, there's no evidence that Franken did any of the things he has been accused of either. But we'll wait for the trials just the same.

      WAIT WAIT WAIT. I'm confused. A --PICTURE-- doesn't qualify as evidence?

    110. Re: Nothing changed but the language by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Your deluded. Straight men own modeling agencies for one reason.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    111. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people, men and women, are not critical-thinkers. That's why we have this mess.

      On the one hand, there really are men in the world who believe that it is ok for them to feel-up and blatantly harass women whenever and where ever they want. Not all men are like this. In my experience, this is a very small percentage of men. But of course they get all the attention and invite unjustified generalizations.

      On the other hand, there really are women who dress and act in an obviously inviting way; respond very positively to men at first, and then accuse them of harassment later on when their mood changes (not because the men went too far, but because the women now regret what they already willfully participated in). Again, this is a small percentage of women, but they get all the attention.

      Men who presume are wrong. Women who say yes and then change their answer to no after the fact are wrong. And while the extreme examples on both sides are small percentages...the continuum of gray area between these extremes still dominates the social and professional world.

      There are other problems too. Like, if a woman plays hard-to-get because she wants a man with a strong interest who won't take no for an answer...she will wind up with a man who has a strong interest and won't take no for an answer. Of course, eventually, that is going to be a problem for her...when she says no to him and means it (vs saying no to him wanting him to try harder), and he does what she previously rewarded him for doing (refuses to take no for an answer). She failed to think critically when she chose her selection criteria....but so did he. A man who chases after such women puts himself in a position to be accused...and found guilty.

      These problems won't be solved by some public agreement of rules. They are fundamentally problems of thoughtlessness on both sides. The answer is simple: test others for thoughtfulness (not interest), and only call friends those who demonstrate their ability to reflect on their actions. The dating pool will be quite small, and for some empty. But that is better than a prison cell and public humiliation.

    112. Re:Nothing changed but the language by jedidiah · · Score: 0

      > Your comparison of sexual harassment claims and WW2 war criminals is extraordinarily stupid.

      They both suffer from the same exact problems of provability. That's why we have statutes of limitations. It doesn't matter how trivial or horrible the crime is. After 40 years, each is equally unprovable.

      You also have the same problem of why bother? Why bother punishing someone that's not long for this world any ways. The perpetrator has already gotten away with it for all practical purposes.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    113. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People need to take it easier, including women. Nice tits btw.

    114. Re: Nothing changed but the language by sphealey · · Score: 1

      = = = https://www.cbsnews.com/news/d...
      "My people are so smart -- and you know what else they say about my people? The polls?" Trump asked a crowd at a Sioux Center, Iowa, rally Saturday. "I have the most loyal people -- did you ever see that?"

      "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" he said, referring to the major street in New York City that cuts through Manhattan's large commercial district. "It's, like, incredible."

    115. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They know, they just play the edge cuz they are creeps.

    116. Re: Nothing changed but the language by MorePower · · Score: 1

      Um, care to quote what you are talking about? I read the article and didn't see any such thing. There were two examples given, one where a guy suggested to a group of women they should take their tops off and one women who got her ass pinched while giving a sales pitch to a government guy. Both of those are clearly way over the line behavior and not simply innocent attempts to ask a woman out.

    117. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Where are these stories of people being accused of sexual harassment by touching a coworkers bare shoulder during a group picture?

      Garrison Keillor, the "Prairie Home Companion" guy, just got fired for the same amount of contact.

      Key paragraph:

      “I put my hand on a woman’s bare back,” he wrote. “I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it.”

      Thanks to feminism, women are now untouchables. No amount of empathy or emotional connection is permitted. You'll see more and more men adopt the "Pence rule" as the only way to avoid lawsuits.

    118. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      The first thing you listed was a single untoward comment. Are you intellectually challenged?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    119. Re:Nothing changed but the language by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We can have friendly relations with employees without crossing that line.

      Unfortunately that's no longer for you to decide where the line is.

      Wait, what? I think you misspelled fortunately there. In fact, the problem is that it has long been for the person in the position of power to decide where the line was. The standard is rightly that the recipient of attention decides what is unwanted, and the law determines what is lawful. The law states that contact which is both unnecessary and unwanted is unlawful, and this always should have been the standard for all types of physical contact in all situations. There is a grey area in parenting, where the parent is given a certain amount of leeway to decide what is necessary, but that amount is also somewhat strictly proscribed by law.

      Just like male teachers cannot afford to be alone with a student (female or not), it has become somewhat a gamble to be alone with a female coworker.

      Classic societal overcorrection — but make no mistake, it is an overcorrection, not simply coming out of nowhere. The current state is a direct result of how risky it has been for women to be alone with a male coworker all along.

      What's left? Only meet women while witnesses you both trust are present, only engage in relationships under a clear contract, and never drink. Looks like ISIS is onto something.

      Life is uncertain. You can choose not to live if you want to, though.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    120. Re: Nothing changed but the language by MorePower · · Score: 1

      Ok "technically" true, the first example was a comment. But in the context of the discussion we were talking about asking a women out and getting a " no, not interested", with you commenting back that even one comment (presumed to be a comment about asking a woman out) qualifies as harassment. The example given in the article was an obviously unacceptable comment directed at a group of women, well outside the norms of social behavior.

    121. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that also some funny redefintion of "news", becuase it doesn't match reality.

      Ah, I see you're familiar with Fox News, Breitbart, and Russia Today.

    122. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But....it's a lost battle. It is made worse by the large group of women who believe that it is the responsibility of "the world" to protect them from the consequences of their unwise decisions, such that they should all be able to dress provocatively and party wildly with dangerous men and have a perfectly reasonable expectation of complete safety.

      Interesting that you don't mention the large group of men who have their own beliefs about "the world" such that they should be free to take such actions as they want without being challenged or criticized at all and who resent anybody who tries to make them responsible as somebody who is just ruining their life Perhaps that's why your attempts don't work, you're not making sufficient effort to realize the problem, but letting a certain amount of bias appear in your words?

      I am not sure why this attitude seems to thrive even into adulthood....but then again, much about human behavior remains a mystery to me.

      Maybe you're just manufacturing an attitude in order to justify dismissing them? That's not a mysterious element of behavior at all.

    123. Re:Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      In fairness it wasn't harassment first time you asked.

      At the 250th, the trip to HR was well deserved.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    124. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Mr307 · · Score: 1

      Well said thank you, your comment pretty much covers my opinion as well.

      It could be said that more people need to read some Camille Paglia:

      "The idea that feminism is the first group that has ever denounced rape is a gross libel to men. Throughout history, rape has been condemned by honorable men. Honorable men do not murder; honorable men do not steal; honorable men do not rape. It goes all the way back through history. Tarquin’s rape of Lucretia caused the fall of the tyrants and the beginning of the Roman Republic. The idea that somehow suddenly feminism miraculously found out that women were being exploited and raped throughout history is ridiculous. "

      This one is particularly biting:

      "A male student makes vulgar remarks about your breasts? Don't slink off to whimper with the campus shrinking violets. Deal with it. On the spot. Say, "Shut up, you jerk! And crawl back to the barnyard where you belong!" In general, women who project this take-charge attitude towards life get harassed less often. I see too many dopey, immature, self-pitying young women walking around like melting sticks of butter. "

    125. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For all your frustration, there are other people who you frustrate as well.

      If we're being real here, and let's please be real here, the frustration on all sides is ultimately sourced from those (men and women) who harass and those (also men and women) who make false accusations of harassment.

      I would not say that they're the source of frustration, the frustration comes in from a different direction, it's a different sentiment that's more secondary, while what you're talking about would be more of a primary. I mean, you can say that the frustration, such as it is, would not exist, without a cause, but I think that's mistaking the origins of the irritation in a way that is more of a hindrance.

      The frustration just happens to be aimed in every direction because that's what intensely frustrated people do when they don't know who to direct their frustration at; and we're all intensely frustrated.

      I wouldn't say it's aimed in every direction, so much as pervasive to the point of finding it hard to source it, but I will agree that people don't know how to address the problem properly so as to resolve it.

    126. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well... there was Bush(who was in wheelchair) in photo with someone, who said that he was groping... though, to be honest I would be offended if some alpha female was standing in group photo with her genitals in the same level as my face. If she did not wanted to be groped, there were two options: 1) Bush should have grown longer hands, so he could hug her somewhere around shoulder area, or... she could... 2) just sit down, like normal people are doing in group photo. Bush is old and she is young and moron, who don't understand that old people are old(and she is going to be old, too - eventually) and they sit in wheelchair for a reason... I probably had to think, that there is a crowd of people who were interested in me sexually, because they inadvertently hit their hands in my crotch area...

      However this article says nothing about harassment, where males are acting inappropriate towards women, but that women are not programmers, but that it is nowadays mainly profession of men. Though, it said nothing about male sexual harassment(!), when programming jobs were female occupation... it is rather confusing, don't you think?

    127. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      I disagree. You probably don't know many woman. I know plenty that smile, flirt, and sometimes take off their top. You should probably get out more. It is not the case that all woman hate men and are sexually repressed.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    128. Re:Nothing changed but the language by malkavian · · Score: 1

      Except, as statistics show, a large number of people meet their partners at work (as that's where you spend the large part of your time). It sounds as though you're saying "you have to go to these clubs or a pay for dating app to get interest", well, huge amounts of people hate that and would never use that.. They prefer to meet at work, in a bar, out hiking etc., which means they're right back at standing the risk of being accused of sexual harrassment as the parent post to your explained very well.

    129. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Informative

      Holy shit. Go work in corporate for a year or two, you'll see this everywhere. On the other side, if a women commits sexual harassment? You're likely still going to be working with her. And if your company really hates you for bringing up a women committing such, they're going to do their best to make sure you're both working early hours and alone. Oh that'll also happen at the behest of HR, which is 99.9% women.

      Hell go work in a government office where it's all women, you think men are sexually aggressive? Please. Once they forget you're there, you'll hear the stories about how they're trying to commit pregnancy by deception, backstabbing against whoever, and so on. My own examples when I was working as a cadet for a police service, where I'd work bars, parades, and so on? I'd get groped by women 50-70 times a night. Male police officers keep track of this, but you're expected to brush it off and not make a scene. The constable I worked with was once groped 137 times by women in a 5hr shift in a club.

      Oh and have you never ever in your entire life worked in a female dominated environment? HR? Short-line assembly? Accounting? Boy oh boy are you in for on hell of a lesson on the double standards that currently exist. Here's the thing with sexual harassment. If a women accuses a man, his life is effectively over. Full stop. That's it. Even if he's proven innocent in the court, even if the accuser retracts and says she lied, it doesn't matter. He will always have that stigma, he will be turned down for future education, jobs, friends and family will abandon him. The very worst cases? You see them all the time where the guy simply kills himself. There is near-to-zero punishment for false allegations by women against men. The times where there are punishments are when the women has committed dozens of fraudulent complaints, and she might, maybe, possibly get 2 years less a day--that means no federal time, which would be around 10 years for men.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    130. Re: Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      Fox News seems to be big on conspiracy theories these days. Remember when AntiFa were about to rise up, behead white guys and overthrow the president?

      That's what passes for news these days.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    131. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Well, yes. People with reasonable social skills have figured out how to get find a romantic interest at work without offending the other person.

    132. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Regarding your IM example, have you every thought of just asking her to stop? Just say you think it is inappropriate because you are her superior. If she doesn't stop, report it to HR.

      You are overthinking this.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    133. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sexual compatibility is the stupidest concept ever invented. (It was invented by men to talk women into the sack, truthfully.) Figuring out if you have similar goals in life, both are of good character, whether your belief systems (religions) agree, whether your politics agree, whether you are both reasonable people, etc., are far more important to determining your ability to stay together and be happy. None of them involve hopping into the sack.

      >Two virgins couldn't possibly asses...
      Nice Freudian slip there...I think you meant "assess".

    134. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      There is nothing wrong with making the first "move", as long as that move is benign. Don't ask your subordinates out, don't keep asking if they say no. It's really not hard at all.

      The human race isn't going to die out because of this.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    135. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Back then Bond was just following a model where it was assumed that if a woman resisted she actually wanted it and was just playing hard to get. If the guy worked for it, in Bond's case by pinning her to the ground with his body, he had proved himself and she would give in.

      Thing is, even modern Bond does this. In the last film he forced himself on a widow whose husband's funeral she had just attended. It's like, he's Bond, every woman must want him.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    136. Re:Nothing changed but the language by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You seem to be functionally illiterate. That is most decidedly not what I wrote. The problem is women crying "sexual harassment" when men look or try to talk to them.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    137. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a trans Amy ain't ya? No one I see asking you out don't even dream on it

    138. Re:Nothing changed but the language by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Thanks. You analysis is spot-on. Of course, since squiggleslash has no honor and is willing to blatantly lie to support his messed-up agenda, this will not do much for him. But your analysis does confirm that it is actually not hard to understand what I wrote.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    139. Re:Nothing changed but the language by gweihir · · Score: 1

      This one is particularly biting:

      "A male student makes vulgar remarks about your breasts? Don't slink off to whimper with the campus shrinking violets. Deal with it. On the spot. Say, "Shut up, you jerk! And crawl back to the barnyard where you belong!" In general, women who project this take-charge attitude towards life get harassed less often. I see too many dopey, immature, self-pitying young women walking around like melting sticks of butter. "

      Or in other words, style yourself as a victim and as a result become one. And that works even if there are no "predators" around, as people must judge what is acceptable by the reaction of others. It does not work any other way. Incidentally, it works like that in all human interaction and apparently, women can do this to others just as well. The problem though, and that is unfortunate, is with the victim. It cannot be solved from any other position as that would mean abandoning human interaction or extremely formalizing it (which is not much better).

      Now, I am not saying that is nice or good, I am saying that is how it is. Ignoring reality does not solve problems, it makes them worse for everybody. And that is the only thing the SJW faction of feminism has actually accomplished: Making the problem worse for everybody.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    140. Re: Nothing changed but the language by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      The news is full of people being outed as harassers, and usually suffering the consequences. I'm struggling, however, to think of a single instance where the definition of harassment is as all encompassing as the one you're using. From Roger Ailes to Kevin Spacey the acts were genuinely threatening to those who suffered them.

      I'm tired of reading paranoid Slashdotters who think that people are being fired for asking co-workers out or accidentally brushing against a clothed bottom. That's not happening.

      Hell, if you'd followed the news this year, you'd know that not only is it not happening, but getting an HR department to take acts of the severity we've seen from Ailes/Weinstein takes more than just a complaint: worse still, most of the time, the HR department will help the aggressor. It takes a large group of those victimized talking to journalists at a respected newspaper to companies to act.

      I'm baffled as to why you'd think "You might want to watch the news sometime" would confirm your view of the world. The news is showing the extreme opposite of what you claim.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    141. Re:Nothing changed but the language by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe. Of curse such things are tricky to get right.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    142. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Especially room for advancement. Computer jobs still have little to no room for advancement, no matter what sex, gender, or sexual orientation somebody is.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    143. Re:Nothing changed but the language by microbox · · Score: 1

      No just internet comment boards, the concept creep on sexual harassment is an intentional power grab by our moral betters to dictate the terms of their new Utopian socially just society. Problem is, (1) they're not grounded in reality, and (2) they don't understand the golden rule. What could go wrong?

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    144. Re:Nothing changed but the language by microbox · · Score: 1

      That's a good definition of sexual harassment, but we all know that in this day and age, it's just a matter of what a woman thinks, or how she feels about something. She could be batsh*t insane, but no matter.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    145. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an exert from one of her recent tweets "I'm concerned the automated blocking tools I use might be going haywire"
      This lady fully admits to building an echo chamber. She has my account blocked and I never knew she existed until 10 minutes ago and currently have 8 tweets.

    146. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't work when half the women in the workforce are women.

      Uh, what exactly are the other half the women in the workforce? I hope it's like They Live and they're aliens about to be busted up by Rowdy Roddy Piper! He's all out of bubblegum, after all.

    147. Re:Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      >> You make it clear that you want to know the person as a person

      > Sex is part of being a person.

      You want to have sex with everyone you know?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    148. Re:Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 0

      Thanks to feminism, women are now untouchables.

      In that you can no longer get away with touching them whenever you feel like it regardless of their wishes, yes.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    149. Re:Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Except, as statistics show, a large number of people meet their partners at work (as that's where you spend the large part of your time).

      Yep, those people have a reasonable enough understanding of things to be able to navigate those situations just fine.

      If you're the kind of person ranting about how saying "hello" gets you a trip to HR, then you're clearly not able to navigate those things and youhave to suck it up. The world isn't your personal playground, and it doesn't matter how much you hate bars, clubs or dating apps. If you're not socially smart enough to deal with trickier situations, you're still ill advised to try.

       

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    150. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      Classic societal overcorrection — but make no mistake, it is an overcorrection, not simply coming out of nowhere. The current state is a direct result of how risky it has been for women to be alone with a male coworker all along.

      Every time I think you and the other /. SJWs can't possibly get any more deluded and disconnected from reality you prove me wrong. You sound exactly like the breathless and hysterical way klansmen talk about black men being a threat to white women.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    151. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've read the latest surveys of Millennials, 40% believe that asking someone to the movies ONCE counts as sexual harassment. Definitions have changed and now any non-work related conversation may be viewed as harassment by a not insubstantial proportion of the population.

    152. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      First of all Spacey's case would be pedophelia, and any of the cases where there was forced sex would be rape. Sexual harassment involved harassment. While rape can be a single incident harassment must occur over a period of time by definition.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    153. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Cederic · · Score: 1

      "Stop" is a harsh response to someone still finding her way in the workplace. It's also - stupid as this sounds - not certain that she was coming on to me; she may actually have been merely being friendly. I have Aspergers, I can't fucking tell.

      At the time I continued the IM conversation relating to something else we'd been discussing and didn't otherwise response to the cuddles comment. She took the hint.

      I've since left that company but she and I are still friends, although she's still with the boyfriend that she met while I was still working there.

      You are overthinking this.

      Oh? Had I expressed a preference to smother her with cuddles (or indeed, my female boss), I'd have been disciplined by the end of the day.

      Had I responded to her with 'Great, what are you doing on Friday' I'd have had a strong risk of disciplinary action and/or damaging that relationship.

      Had I cut off contact with her I'd have broken the working relationship, damaged team dynamics _and_ faced censure for failing to support junior female staff.

      Welcome to the complex minefield of modern office sexual politics. The man can't fucking win.

    154. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has your application for membership in the Junior Anti-Sex League been approved yet?

    155. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      So you are certain that if you had said it you would have been disciplined. Yet you are not sure it is appropriate to ask her to stop saying it.

      It seems fairly logical to me.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    156. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Logic doesn't come into it. Double-standards in employment practices based on gender are the factor here.

      I've been working long enough that I'm used to it now, I'm bloody good at navigating it and I don't let it stop me mentoring and supporting young female members of staff. I do though know other men that try to avoid any one-on-one meetings or situations.

      Most people interact well, build teams, support each other, get things done. It's the others that cause the problems, and it only takes one of them to fuck over your job.

    157. Re: Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      They probably mean Fox News, the Daily Mail or Infowars. They keep up the conspiracy theory narrative about straight white guys being oppressed and at risk of some SJW destroying them over some bullshit. That's before the soy turns you gay, of course.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    158. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      Sounds fishy, I mean how do you go from patting someone on the back to oops my hand accidentally ran six inches under her shirt? That's his whole hand to there.

      Patting is a sideways motion. It's really hard to imagine how this could have happened. Also, we only have his side of the story.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    159. Re:Nothing changed but the language by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Classic societal overcorrection â" but make no mistake, it is an overcorrection, not simply coming out of nowhere. The current state is a direct result of how risky it has been for women to be alone with a male coworker all along.

      Every time I think you and the other /. SJWs can't possibly get any more deluded and disconnected from reality you prove me wrong. You sound exactly like the breathless and hysterical way klansmen talk about black men being a threat to white women.

      Point to the part you disagree with instead of whining, and I'll provide a citation.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    160. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      You know what I'm going to say. It's the same thing I always say when you make these bold claims of

      You are alleging a grand conspiracy to manufacture sexual harassment claims. That's gonna need some proof.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    161. Re:Nothing changed but the language by swb · · Score: 1

      The disclaimer was just to avoid the usual critics who rather than critiquing the argument (which I'd welcome) would chose to falsely extend to support for physical assault, coercive sexual encounters, and so on. Looks and looks alone was the actual subject matter, so I wanted it make perfectly clear there no was no justification for other types of more obvious sexual harassment.

      More broadly, I'm trying to build the foundation for defining a certain amount of female agency, free will and responsibility for their own actions that explains how and why women experience certain situations that make them uncomfortable.

      Too much of this #metoo movement seems to give women the ability to act however they want in the gendered sexual dynamic without regard to whether their behavior catalyzes men, other women, or contributes to the situation's dynamics in some way.

      I don't really think women are all that innocent, that naive or should be that free of any consequences for their own behavior. They no more live in a single-gender vacuum than men do, yet it seems to me that women are being given a pass to that says no matter what they do, say, how the dress or act can be held against them.

      That's exactly how we *used* to treat women centuries ago (and still do in some cultures) but it came along with the idea that women were somehow intellectually and emotionally deficient, unable to really control their behavior, lacked an awareness of their behavior and needed protection from themselves and men. We gender segregated them into their own worlds where their were no inter-gender relationships and they were literally free of the consequences of their actions in mixed genders because they weren't allowed to be those situations.

    162. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It takes a while for kids to learn not to just take things from other kids or hit them when they get upset. They have natural instincts that drive them to behave that way, and because they are kids we tolerate it to a much greater degree than we do in adults. When little Johnny steals a cookie from the jar, we don't usually call the cops.

      So "it's human nature" is no excuse.

      Also, you are wrong about women seeking infidelity. The most effective way for them to ensure the survival of their genes is to have a stable relationship with a provider that frees them up to look after the children. Many animals adopt this pattern too, pairing for life or at least until the children are old enough to look after themselves. Infidelity risks losing important resources and putting all your offspring at risk, and as you point out women can only have so many kids per lifetime.

      That's one reason why many women want to be independent, and while some men are afraid of that happening as they think they will become irrelevant or infidelity will increase.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    163. Re: Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In a social situation someone can be open to advances and still reject yours. I guess you could say that was "unwanted", but that term is usually used in the context of "in a situation where they don't want any advances", like a business meeting that they have no choice over attending.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    164. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      But it does seem like there are a lot of women who make a big deal about "being looked at" or other similar non-contact/non-verbal behavior as some kind of harassment.

      I've only ever heard those complaints along side ones of more serious harassment, e.g. where the looking was part of leering and wolf whistling as they walked down the street, or where it was clearly inappropriate e.g. staring at her chest while talking to her at work.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    165. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > First of all Spacey's case would be pedophelia

      You need to look up the definition of pedophilia.

    166. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      Oh I'm sure some gender studies department somewhere has fabricated whatever data you could want, after all the truth never mattered to people like Dr. Koss who've fabricated results >70% of their own respondents rejected or manufactured such contrived and twisted operationalizations that they successfully erase 50% of rape victims.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    167. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      There is no cut and dry black and white to any of this. I know of people who are married with children who met in that environment. Love is not scientific and it doesn't follow rules. Every time you try to lay out rules that apply you will necessarily fail. Many bosses have met and married their employees for example. It's not the scenario it's the people. Women have also warned to men they initially wouldn't consider, and gone cold on men they were totally into. Life doesn't work by rules.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    168. Re: Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying that if you are the boss you should think hard about pursuing someone you employ. If it goes sour, if they reject you right away, if they don't feel able to say no at first...

      We meet lots of people we shouldn't pursue. Already married/with someone etc. That's just life.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    169. Re: Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      "forced a kiss", which means he kissed her and rather than pulling away she allowed it and then decided years later to object when it became de rigueur.

      You have absolutely no evidence of that.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    170. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      My point is people are trying to say it is automatically sexual harassment, but again, harassment is a pattern not an incident. The idea that "people feel they can't say no" and that is the problem of the pursuer rather than the pursued is ludicrous. Even prostitutes can say no.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    171. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Do me a favor. The next time you see a post from me just keep moving. You've wasted enough of my time with your asinine posts.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    172. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Do you think MRA's have suddenly started to come into existence from a vacuum? How about MGTOW? Those types of movements didn't "happen" because of nothing at all. How about you got hit those Title IX complaints in the US where universities operated kangaroo courts that specifically went after male students, openly punished them, and refused any evidence that proved innocence. How about you go look at the current witchhunt going on with #metoo and all those people being accused based on ... nothing at all, only a claim in many cases with no evidence. How about from your own backyard? Plenty of cases, pick the guardian as a source for all you want you'll find them there. Right beside the mass-coverups of child rape, sexual exploitation, and child prostitution gangs run by "asians" in multiple cities.

      Then again, as seen in the past when evidence is dropped before you, you ignore it. Hey how about this, go become friends with a constable who works the club districts, shouldn't be too hard for you. You'll find out how endemic it is even in the UK.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    173. Re: Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I disagree. You probably don't know many woman. I know plenty that smile, flirt, and sometimes take off their top.

      This is slashdot. Letters to penthouse is over that way --->

      Unless of course you're being techincally accurate by referring to a jumper which is technically a top.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    174. Re:Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Sexual pressure is always there.

      First rule of biology: no matter how complex you think it is, you are wrong. It is far more complex.

      A corollary of that is that if you think you can sum up half of human sexuality in 5 words, your statement is so simplistic so as to qualify as "not even wrong" .

      These behaviors are inherent, because they make sense from an evolutionary point of view

      Just-so storeis about evolution simple speculation. Having something merely not be instantly ruled out at a first glance by a scientific theory does not make it actually correct.

      Your analysis is about on the level of this:

      http://www.smbc-comics.com/com...

      Seriously, go and speak to a research biologist, and an evolutionary one if you can. Until you've looked at, it's hard to realise how insanely tangled and complex it is.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    175. Re:Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      atting is a sideways motion. It's really hard to imagine how this could have happened. Also, we only have his side of the story.

      It's about as credible as "well I was just taking a photo of this very important and urgent work document because my scanner broke and my dick accidently slipped out and I sent the photo before I noticed".

      It could happen to anyone really.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    176. Re: Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Do me a favor.

      Why?

      The next time you see a post from me just keep moving. You've wasted enough of my time with your asinine posts.

      You mean then next time you post unsubstantiated BS, I should let it slide because you can't deal?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    177. Re:Nothing changed but the language by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Have you read or watched the news AT ALL in the last two months?

      The common theme is not "Some woman made a complaint about something innocent and that ruined a man", it's "Some men harassed, and often assaulted, women, and sometimes men, over a period of decades, and HR assisted those men and covered it up."

      Even if he's proven innocent in the court, even if the accuser retracts and says she lied, it doesn't matter. He will always have that stigma, he will be turned down for future education, jobs, friends and family will abandon him.

      It virtually never goes to court. And until a few months ago, men could be pretty openly accused of virtually everything under the sun, and remain influential. The complaints against Roger Ailes, Keven Spacey, Bill O'Reilly and the yet to be touched director of certain X Men films, went on for decades, often leaking into the public, and nothing, NOTHING, was done.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    178. Re:Nothing changed but the language by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Also, you are wrong about women seeking infidelity. The most effective way for them to ensure the survival of their genes is to have a stable relationship with a provider that frees them up to look after the children.

      Another effective way of ensuring the survival of her genes is to match them with the genes of the most successful men. Her husband is very useful for bringing up her children, which don't have to be his.
      Studies after genetic testing became available show that more than ten percent of Western children have a biological father that does not match the man who thinks he's the biological father. The lower the social status of the man, the higher the risk of his raising cucklings. As long as he does not know, the benefit to the mother's genes is great - her sons inherit more successful and attractive genes than if they were from her husband. The risk to the woman is in being found out.
      As long as the husband is none the wiser, there is no conflict between having a stable relationship with a provider and picking the best genes for her children.

    179. Re: Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You should probably read the article and get back to us. The author claims a single untoward comment qualifies.

      Rater depends on the comment, doesn't it?

      A single "oi show us yer tits!" is very likely to wind up with a trip to the job centre, even if it is technically only a "single untoward comment".

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    180. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      And yet it isn't sexual harassment unless, as was my original point, you change the definition of harassment. As always, you are a fucking idiot.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    181. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your comment won't age well.

    182. Re: Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      And yet it isn't sexual harassment unless, as was my original point, you change the definition of harassment.

      Ah so you're engaging in mindless pedantry over a word definition?

      Would you care if a "single untoward comment" would get you fired if it were bad enough?

      Now, before you answer note that not all definitions of harassment requires it to be repeated. Go actually look at some dictionaries. Some definitions involve repetition others do not.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    183. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      All harassment is, by definition, repetitive. All correct definitions of the word require the behavior to be repetitive. It is literally the definition of the word. Again, claiming a single incident can qualify is an attempt to redefine the word. It would be like if I called you intelligent; I would be attempting to use it to mean moron, but I would be using the word incorrectly. You would continue to be a moron.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    184. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do yourself a favor by ignoring ZK. He's just a big baby.

    185. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      Nobody is saying that Trump is great and I can grab pussies with impunity now because a few women are vocal about their sexual repression.

      I certainly imagine not. In fact, something quite opposite might be happening.

      and those of us who are well will continue to show respect while simultaneously appreciating the female form.

      I went through an early version of sexual harassment training in a college environment. I might note that the first directive and metric was that "Anything a woman feels is sexual harassment is by default sexual harassment." That is not scare quotes - it is a statement from the sexual harassment counselor.

      The results? In a workplace with a lot of career driven men, many decided that our careers were more important than any interaction with women. So an intense chill descended. Having a chat with the boss that might necessitate closed doors would not be done with a female. Interactions between men and women became minimal, just enough to assign or get assignments, and the unwritten rule was never ever be in a situation where there were no witnesses. You would see a man exit the elevator on the wrong floor if a woman stepped into it.

      Meanwhile this self protection strategy really pissed off 99 percent of the women, who claimed some version of "I didn't want any of this disaster!"

      When in fact, those 99 percent of women could point out every asshole who was harassing them.

      When in fact, those assholes didn't miss a stride. They just kept on doing what they always did.

      The small minority of women who saw sexual harassment as a smile and a hello, and the gender studies majors who simply hated all men were happy.

      It didn't cure the problem - it made it much much worse. The touchy feely jackasses continued, and normal guys were ghosting. Fortunately, after the horrid results of the first efforts, sane people who understood human nature took over, and noting a woman's nice new hairstyle was not grounds fo rgetting fired.

      Now what we have is a total breakdown of due process, where the accusation is enough, where there is no questioning the accuser, her word is above reproach. If she say you did it, there is no defense - you did it.

      Well, it will be back to the future, where normal men will protect their careers by avoiding those things that will destroy it, and those creeps? They'll still do what they always do. I might question that, but I already lived through it years ago.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    186. Re: Nothing changed but the language by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      All harassment is, by definition, repetitive.

      Go.

      Read.

      The.

      Dictionary.

      All correct definitions of the word require the behavior to be repetitive.

      In other news, Zero__Kelvin is right and all the dictionary makers are wrong.

      It is literally the definition of the word.

      According to you, not apparently enoug oter people to influence dictionaries.

      Let's take Mirriam-Webster (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harass):

      b (1) : to annoy persistently

              was harassing his younger brother

      (2) : to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

      See b2? No requirement of repetition. From Collins https://www.collinsdictionary....

      Harassment is behaviour which is intended to trouble or annoy someone, for example repeated attacks on them or attempts to cause them problems.

      The repetition is only in the example, not the definition.

      The free dictionary https://www.thefreedictionary....

      1. To subject (another) to hostile or prejudicial remarks or actions; pressure or intimidate.

      Meaning 1 of the 3 listed does not require persistence.

      And that's before we get on to the legal defintion of things which are quite specific and not 100% wat you expect.

      Either way, not everyone, including respectable dictionaries (go on argue that you're a more authoratative source than Collins or Mirriam Webster) do not agree with your very narrow defintion.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    187. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      If you are too stupid to know when you are getting in the gray zone where harassment could be considered then you really should stay out of society. Just because that woman is friendly doesn’t mean there is anything more from it.

      I was told that you could get fired for telling a woman her earrings were nice. It that a gray enough area for you?

      It isn't like in the work environment we are hugging and touching the other guys or rating their sexual assets. We can focus on work. We can have friendly relations with employees without crossing that line.

      You do know that women do that all of the time, don't you? I've been working in areas and listened to women rather analytically compare the lenght of mans penises, and one noting that men with really big dicks hardly know what to do with them - just stick it in, and he thing's you're siupposed to cum just because it's so big. How horney they were when the y were [pregnant, and guessing the dick size of various guys in the office. Sorry, but it isn't like women are these saintly pure mental veigens who will swoon if the "s" word is mentioned.

      And actually, the guys I worked with never mentioned much about sex, because if we were overheard, we could be fired.

      We live in a world where one wrong word, one accidental brushing against a woman can result in you getting fired. And there is no due process, and no statute of limitations.

      So whether you like or not, a chilling is going to happen, I lived through an earlier version of it. It's pretty simple. In a reasoned analysis, there are two genders in a workplace. One of them holds a very powerful trump card, and can destroy you. And since that particular gender is human, that gender has all of the frailties that men do. If a man can be wrong or dissemble, it is naive to believe that a female is incaplble of inaccuracies.

      If you don't believe that, ask a judge if females always tell the truth because they are female.

      Anyhow, prudent men taking an avoidance approach isn't harassing women, so it would seem a good thing, yes no? It doesn't actually solve it because the actual harassers don't stop. Maybe going after them instead of all of us would work better.

      The ladies know who these people are. The trick, as my wife notes through personal experience - is immediate reportage. You don't wait until the now apparently defunct statute of limitations has passed, you take care of the problem, and you do it when it happens.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    188. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      what about touching the bare skin on the back when you take a group selfie? or what about complimenting a coworker on their outfit? or what about walking around in your bathing suit at a company pool party?

      Where are these stories of people being accused of sexual harassment by touching a coworkers bare shoulder during a group picture?

      We had a department head who was disciplined - as in forced to retire, when he employed a new staff assistant and asked her to get him a cup of coffee. His offense was sexual harassment, The rule at that time - mid 80's - was anything a woman thinks is sexual harassment - is sexual harassment.

      Or occasionally complimenting an outfit?

      We were told by our sexual harassment counseler that this was not allowed, because it could be interpreted as wanting to have sex with the woman.

      Or wearing a conservative bathing suit at a company pool party?

      Company pool party?

      It really isn't hard for most people who function around the opposite sex without being creepy.

      As a lady friend I worked with told me when I asked her what she thought was sexual harassment: "It depends on my mood." This is th problem. She though nothing of pinching my ass on multiple occasions, I guess I have "ice skater's butt" from all of the Ice hockey, but I would never even dare mention her backside. I um, have a suspicion that she was interested in a little more than a work relationship, but I value my career more than any relation, and it wasn't worth the risk in any event.

      But most of us know the difference between a touch and caressing.

      You are getting hung up on words. If a guy is a creeper, and has been annoying a woman, she won't like any touch at all. That only makes sense. The problem is, with a career in the balance, how does a man know if a woman thinks he is a creep. Until our harassment guidelines were changed from the late 1980's insanity where saying hello might be a problem, you don't know. So now are you doing to put your arm around the woman, even if she's wearing a trenchcoat? A prudent, career oriented man certainly won't.

      We know the difference between dancing at an after-hours party and grinding against someone.

      Kinda depends on the dance, eh? Some not-touching dancing can be pretty suggestive.

      This really isn't rocket science.

      No, it really isn't. The problem though, is we have a rules change. There is no due process, an accusation is sufficient. There is no statute of limitations, something from 25 years ago is sufficient. The accusation happens, and you are gone, a perhaps brilliant career finished.

      Just be respectful and you will be fine. You are probably more likely of being killed by a drunk driver than being accused of sexual harassment when not doing anything wrong.

      And yet, people are killed by drunk drivers. You're pretty damn awful, I hope you know - that saying it is okay to be accused of sexual harassment because drunk drivers.

      Well now, I like to be careful to not get killed by drunk drivers too, perhaps you purposefully drive arounf in the wee hours of the weekends . I also am pretty careful to never put myself in any situation where a woman can accuse me of offending her. Don't like it? Than agitate for a law that not being friendly to women is also sexual harassment. In the meantime, I'll just continue being careful.

      Now the big question:

      If a man, or group of men, choose to not associate with or put themselves in possible compromising situations with women at work, is that not accomplishing what the women want? The goal is not being harassed, and that largely achieves that. Isn't that success?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    189. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      You know what I'm going to say. It's the same thing I always say when you make these bold claims of

      You are alleging a grand conspiracy to manufacture sexual harassment claims. That's gonna need some proof.

      Proof? You will accept a woman's accusations without proof. Seems a bit like a double standard to me.

      Anyhow, the ladies at work would chat about their hucband's penis size, how good he was or wasn't in the sack, and sex toys, techniques and all manner of sex related subjects. I have no more proof than any offered by most of the #metoo movement.

      I have been goosed repeatedly - apparently because I have a "skater's butt" and I'm pretty certain that's been mentioned in their chatting.

      Because there are men and there are women. Sex appears to not have been over-represented in one or the other, perhaps the concept of the pure woman and the depraved man is a social construct by the same people who claim all gender differences are social constructs?

      But th epure and innocent meme is the politically acceptable one at the moment.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    190. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Classic societal overcorrection — but make no mistake, it is an overcorrection, not simply coming out of nowhere. The current state is a direct result of how risky it has been for women to be alone with a male coworker all along.

      Every time I think you and the other /. SJWs can't possibly get any more deluded and disconnected from reality you prove me wrong. You sound exactly like the breathless and hysterical way klansmen talk about black men being a threat to white women.

      The incredible thing about the far left third wave feminists is that they now operate from a position that women are too weak to be around men. It is just not possible for a woman to withstand what all men do, soooooo......

      I don't know what to say, but I think following their logic, such as it is, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that women are simultaneously strong independent victims, and as such, they must be separated from men.

      I think that is awful, and it reeks of fundamentalist Islam.

      And I don't know how it happened either. I recall back in the late 1970's, the female engineers and scientists I worked with could go toe to toe with any old fashioned male chauvinist that was stupid enough to challenge them. And heaven help any guy thinking to take liberties with them.

      Then there was a period of insanity in the 80's led by the woman's studies majors (in my workplace at least) it calmed down for a bit as more rational guidelines were put in place, now all it takes is the accusation, no due process. So we're back to looney tunes time again.

      To me it's pretty simple. As long as there are people who have career terminating powers over me, I'm going to make certain I don't invoke their nuclear option.

      This isn't likely to happen, that much is true. But a prudent person evaluates the situation, and the odds, and makes a decision based on that. Since there is no upside, and a huge downside to associating with those who have the career terminating power over you, I'll choose to avoid the issue altogether.

      The weird thing is that this should be celebrated by the victims, as their odds of becoming victims should go way down. If a man doesn't talk to you, he cannot talk suggestively to you. If a man puts a lot of physical distance from you, he cannot physically harass you. Why this would not be considered a complete win is beyond me.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    191. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Classic societal overcorrection â" but make no mistake, it is an overcorrection, not simply coming out of nowhere. The current state is a direct result of how risky it has been for women to be alone with a male coworker all along.

      Every time I think you and the other /. SJWs can't possibly get any more deluded and disconnected from reality you prove me wrong. You sound exactly like the breathless and hysterical way klansmen talk about black men being a threat to white women.

      Point to the part you disagree with instead of whining, and I'll provide a citation.

      A woman is completely safe working alone with me. Well, at least during the time that I would consent to working alone with women. She still would be, but now I do not give consent to that.

      I think that we almost all of us, fall into double standards when dealing with women and men.

      If a woman does not give consent to working alone with a man, does she have that right? Most people would say "Of course!"

      A man who does not give consent to working alone with a woman, does he have that right? I don't know for certain, but I suspect many people would think that is odd or wrong or sexist. While I think Mike Pence is a white haired turd, I support his not wishing to be alone with another woman not his wife is a right of his, while most liberals castigate him for it.

      Consent and choices should be for both male and female, wouldn't you think?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    192. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      This one is particularly biting:

      "A male student makes vulgar remarks about your breasts? Don't slink off to whimper with the campus shrinking violets. Deal with it. On the spot. Say, "Shut up, you jerk! And crawl back to the barnyard where you belong!" In general, women who project this take-charge attitude towards life get harassed less often. I see too many dopey, immature, self-pitying young women walking around like melting sticks of butter. "

      Great Bolshy Yarblockos THIS!

      An actual liberated woman simply won't put up with shit. Today's version of feminism is that women are weak, and must be protected from any and all men. I much prefer my wife's version of feminism in that some guy wants to harass her, the situation is taken care of immediately, just like you noted.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    193. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Incidentally, it works like that in all human interaction and apparently, women can do this to others just as well.

      My wife had much more problem with women than men. From the old school "Must have laid the boss to get her position" to skinny shaming, other women's harassment wasn't about engaging in sex so much, but happened much more often. Some had to go away.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    194. Re:Nothing changed but the language by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Oh I'm sure some gender studies department somewhere has fabricated whatever data you could want,

      You're prevaricating instead of answering the question specifically because you have no answer which is not bullshit. Rather than admit it, or just go away, you're doubling down on your handwaving prickticklery.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    195. Re:Nothing changed but the language by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The incredible thing about the far left third wave feminists is that they now operate from a position that women are too weak to be around men. It is just not possible for a woman to withstand what all men do, soooooo......

      I will readily admit that there is a segment of feminism which insists that all men are to blame for all things, but those people are not the majority simply because they are loud. Don't make the mistake of thinking that they are in charge of the narrative simply because you happen to hear them often.

      I don't know what to say, but I think following their logic, such as it is, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that women are simultaneously strong independent victims, and as such, they must be separated from men.

      That is a spectacularly stupid thing to say when women's groups everywhere are fighting for more inclusion.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    196. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Armies usually record their actions, and in many cases there is plenty of evidence, it's just that it takes time to track down the perpetrator.

      Sex crimes also often leave evidence.

      Isn't it weird that you want both kinds of crimes to not be investigated?

    197. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. I have had to sit through training where the same thing was said.

      Interestingly, first it was called "sexual harassment training" and that led to snickers because it means how to do it right. Then it was renamed to "anti-sexual harassment training" and it's ironically wrong because it means against sex, or maybe against men, whereas it SHOULD be "anti-harassment" training and guess what ... sexual is just one kind of harassment and none of them are ok.

    198. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The disclaimer was just to avoid the usual critics who rather than critiquing the argument (which I'd welcome) would chose to falsely extend to support for physical assault, coercive sexual encounters, and so on.
      Looks and looks alone was the actual subject matter, so I wanted it make perfectly clear there no was no justification for other types of more obvious sexual harassment.

      Your disclaimer was a hostile, defensive approach, and if that wasn't the appearance you wanted to give, you would have chosen a different approach. Instead, you didn't, and even on response you showed no recognition whatsoever of what was said in criticism to your actual post. If you simply wanted to make yourself clear, you could have done so without the characterization, which would have improved your own position, and it really would have helped you to show a great deal more responsiveness in reply.

      I mean, I know I didn't, and I know I'm not, but that's purposeful on my part, I don't want you to get distracted when I believe the improvement necessary to your words will have to come from within. This is an express statement, contrary to yours, where you are conspicuously silent.

      Really, look at the rest of what I said, which you should seriously consider. Really, you might want to look at broadening your foundations, as it seems you're resting all of your focus upon the female, which means your tower will likely fall as there's a whole set of behavior and thinking on the male that you're paying little attention towards, and I might even say there's two more sides, which is to say, the perceptions that are contrary to yours on both genders. Yet by neglecting that, you give appearances you may not wish to present.

      If you had made a more conscientious effort to be even-handed, you could better avoid giving such appearances rather than rely on disclaimers that actually undercut your position.

    199. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, this from the same idiot that tried to argue over and over that harassment does not require repetition.

    200. Re:Nothing changed but the language by swb · · Score: 1

      I hear the complaint made, but informally.

      I think there's something about the very *idea* of being found sexually desirable that is objectionable to a fair number of women, even when it's not weirdly anti-social kinds of "looking".

      It's a odd thing, because it's hard to know what the threshold is between an acceptable "you've caught my eye" attractiveness that might be flattering and "he looked at me" creepiness, because the threshold really varies based on individuals. But it's kind of an accusation made without respect to the variation in thresholds.

      I think it's why some people who make innocent comments like "that dress looks nice on you" and get accused of harassment find themselves feeling defensive and befuddled. Every woman wants (and I suppose deserves) their own standard of personal comfort, but I don't think we can make a broadly enforced rule based on widely varying standards of personal comfort.

      You can't define vandalism as everything from leaving footprints in the dust to burning a building down, depending on how the property owner feels about whether they have been vandalized. Personal feelings about it matter, but can't be used as a functional definition.

      We need a rule that's widely understood and generous enough to not unduly punish truly innocuous or innocent behavior. Which unfortunately means some chunk of the female population will have to put up with having their sensibilities offended by some looks and probably even some kinds of touches, although I would expect the latter to have much more stringent standards.

      The thought that occurred to me about the whole #metoo phenomenon is that I think what could possibly happen is that men treat all women as total strangers at arm's length unless women wind up blatantly offering complete sexual intimacy. Middle ground just won't be possible, so women will find themselves either mostly alienated or be forced to offer intimacy they don't want in order to get something like middle ground.

    201. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sex crimes don't leave evidence that last for long unless there are witnesses. Or the victim dies from the assault

    202. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they just got lucky the other person didn't treat that invitation to coffee as sexual harassment.

    203. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Maybe women wonder why random guys feel the need to comment publicly on their attire. I mean, saying it looks good on them is as much a comment on their body as on the dress.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    204. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I don't know what to say, but I think following their logic, such as it is, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that women are simultaneously strong independent victims, and as such, they must be separated from men.

      That is a spectacularly stupid thing to say when women's groups everywhere are fighting for more inclusion.

      I am indeed spectacularly stupid, of that there can be no doubt - guilty as charged.

      It might be important to remember however, that separation need not be physical. It can take the form of refusal to interact except as required to get the work done, and no socializing, no being alone with. No small talk, no friendship. Nothing other than business. I lived through that cold war scenario during the late 80's, early 90's. Even the people we worked for figured out that they turned a problem into a toxic mess. So they changed it - largely at the direction of the women in the workforce. And this present day avoidance is happening as we speak, many feminists are very concerned about it because it's passive avoidance, which is darned difficult to fight, especially given the tools used so often in the past, like shaming and calling men immature and awful.

      I like my female friends. We get along just fine, I even had them during those dark days, but we'd been friends a log time. But anyone new simply wasn't trusted. And people in the workplace need to trust each other if they are going to do anything other than just the work at hand. Is this passive avoidance not an acceptable solution to the problem? Why not? That inclusion thing is a bit of a problem, but what is the answer to that? Forced friendliness? Firing men because they don't socialize with the women?

      Now just between you, me, and the chachalacas in the back yard, the women where I worked knew exactly who every guy who was annoying them was. Report the assholes, and get them either counseling or a free no expensive paid permanent vacation. As my wife did when she had a bad problem with a guy - she immediately took care of the problem - called the owner the next morning - the owner flies in that day, and the guy gets hammered. There was no questioning her veracity. no silly questions used as excuses for not reporting like "Were you wearing a short dress?".

      That is how you take care of the problem. Immediately - no waiting until the statute of limitations passes. No painting all men as harassers.

      I only give my spectacularly stupid experience, which no doubt is not even wrong. And I think you would have to admit that men are horribly mistreating women, and the liberal solutions have taken that down to zero, amirite? Don't dare try my suggestions, they are spectacularly stupid. All crimes should be accepted on one person's say so no trial needed, and long after the stature of limitations ends that's what the smart people do. Pardon the sarcasm, but seriously, you think the present tack makes good sense and is working?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    205. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      This. I have had to sit through training where the same thing was said.

      Interestingly, first it was called "sexual harassment training" and that led to snickers because it means how to do it right. Then it was renamed to "anti-sexual harassment training" and it's ironically wrong because it means against sex, or maybe against men, whereas it SHOULD be "anti-harassment" training and guess what ... sexual is just one kind of harassment and none of them are ok.

      What we ended up with, was guidelines brought up specifically by the women. They included obvious things like groping, and demanding sex for one thing or another. Another that many of the normal guys never thought of was the "doorway block", where a person would block a doorway, leaving the (usually) woman no choice if she wanted to exit than to brush against him. Well now, that's just fucking creepy.

      Touching was not intrinsically harassment unless you asked them not to touch you, and they repeatedly did, or the touch was obviously related to sex. That even manke sense, as I worked with a few women who were "touchers". I knew what they were about, it was a matter of communication, and their choice.

      A guy was allowed to tell a woman her earrings were nice.

      After the cold war precipitated by the women's studies majors - who were obviously misandrysts, it was a much better situation. #metoo with it's guilt by accusation, destroying men's careers with no due process is merely a step way backwards.

      My eddycayted guess is that just like the misandrysts found out, you can't beat passive avoidance, this is either going to fail, or women will have to put up without much interaction with men in the workplace.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    206. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I guess you didn't see this post: https://slashdot.org/comments....

      Why do you make these ridiculous assumptions about me, that inevitably turn it to be wrong? You are literally never right. You would be more accurate if you took your expectations and assumed the exact opposite.

      So, anyway, instead of trying to deflect, about this manufactured sexual harassment claim conspiracy... It's made up. Exists only in your head. There is zero evidence of collision. The onus is on you to prove otherwise.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    207. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Have you read or watched the news AT ALL in the last two months?

      Have you? You notice how it was how HR assisted those men, but it was the women in HR that went out of their way? Sometimes going even as far as to lure women for whatever reason into those situations?

      And until a few months ago, men could be pretty openly accused of virtually everything under the sun, and remain influential. The complaints against Roger Ailes, Keven Spacey, Bill O'Reilly and the yet to be touched director of certain X Men films, went on for decades, often leaking into the public, and nothing, NOTHING, was done.

      Really? Funny how those people have lost jobs, influence and so on, but in many cases the proof at best has been circumstantial right.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    208. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Let me point this out because I probably didn't make it clear for you in my other post. Those women lured those other women into those situations for two reasons: Because they were also getting something, or because they had something against the other women and could use it as their own leverage as well. Nearly every single case you're seeing in there, are cases of other women doing this.

      Seriously, stop being an idiot. Have you never, ever, ever, heard the phrase: "Hell hast no fury like a woman scorned." It's ~400 years old, there's greek and roman sayings that are similar. Hell dust off your history books boys because we can go damned deep into this one.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    209. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen several studies that used that definition when tracking down where some of the insane rape statistics quoted in press articles came from.
      And the particular branch of social 'science' which deals with this issue largely (camile paglia and christine hoffsteder are two notable opposing voices but oppositino to that definition seems to be the minority opinion in that circle) seems to accept that definition as ok.

    210. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you might want to relisten to that entire conversation

      the gist of the conversation was trump going
      "I' m famous, I'm rich, so I have groupies, and groupies are insane thy alllow you to get away with pretty much anything. the pussy grabing comment was him attempting to give an example of something insane they allowed"

      Groupies allowing crazy shit, is not sexual harresment. It's just groupies having a completely warped perspective at the time.

      And yes much like drunk people, I Imagine a lot of groupies start asking themselves 'what the hell was I thinking' in hindsight. That doesn't make it sexual harassment

    211. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Rande · · Score: 1

      Some are : https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Stare%20Rape

    212. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In _most_ cases it's hyperbole
      In a smaller number of cases its reality

      Given
      - the general lack of due process when someone gets accused of sexual harrasment often with only the word of the accuser as proof.
      - the very likely livedestroying consequences of getting accused

      It's quite frankely completely rational to to check the fuck out of that game.
      Hence why we get discussions about 'man deserts', ' men on strike', 'the need to man up and get married' , etc.

    213. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're deemed sufficiently undesirable by the women you ask (for whatever subjective reason).
      The trip to HR will be the 1st time you ask, and yes they will count it as sexual harassment and give you an official warning that goes into your file

    214. Re:Nothing changed but the language by swb · · Score: 1

      The paradox of course being that women invest a great amount of effort into their personal appearance, outspending men by substantial amounts to the point of creating an entire industry devoted to female personal appearance -- hair stylists, cosmetics, fragrances and apparel.

      With all that money, time and personal effort into their appearance it remains a mystery how and why men would notice their appearance? Isn't the entire purpose of all that effort to develop their visual presentation to be noticed?

      And is it truly surprising when at least the clothing choices and fragrances are almost sure to result in what economists would call signaling of their sexual appeal?

    215. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, as much as I despise Rump and his behavior, "they let you do it" pretty much = consent

    216. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Nothing wrong with noticing, but you have to appreciate that many women like to look good for their own self confidence and to feel good. They are not necessarily trying to attract complements or a mate at work, they just like wearing fashionable clothes and fashionable hair.

      That's why women don't abandon such efforts once they are married. Getting attention is very far down the list of reasons to dress nicely at work.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    217. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then there won't ever be a marriage.

    218. Re:Nothing changed but the language by swb · · Score: 1

      Yes, but their personal intent doesn't eliminate the public effects of their behavior.

      If I'm entirely secure in my personal self image and decide that my choices in personal grooming and dress are driven entirely by own desire for comfort and convenience, should I act surprised when my coworkers complain that my slovenly appearance is a distraction?

    219. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Shifting the goal posts a bit there. We were talking about complementing attire, specifically with words to the effect of "it looks good on /you/" so that it also comments on their body too.

      Obviously if it is a serious distraction that's quite different.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    220. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only one group gets things done.

    221. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but their personal intent doesn't eliminate the public effects of their behavior.

      That's a two-way street you know.

      If I'm entirely secure in my personal self image and decide that my choices in personal grooming and dress are driven entirely by own desire for comfort and convenience, should I act surprised when my coworkers complain that my slovenly appearance is a distraction?

      You want to know how many anecdotes I've been told about this? They range from "Don't underestimate the guy dressing down!" to "How dare such a peasant disturb me with their filth!" though if you want to consider the latter, there's actually a number of movies and stories about that one.

      Many of which end up invalidating their point by succumbing to Hollywood's own desires to make a swan, but that's another problem.

    222. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go white-knight somewhere else like reddit or tumblr.

    223. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the problem is some women have raised complaints even about first time requests like that. If that wasn't the case, above posters wouldn't be complaining. They are clearly in the reasonable camp, whereas you are not. A trip to HR is waranted much before 250 requests.

    224. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the goal is to get all the benefits of working with the men and not deal with any of the reality that it's a bunch of men. They want men to accommodate them. If they didn't want that, they would just start their own companies and hire only women and not be bothered by men in any way.

    225. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      What happened with Franken shows that all politicians, when confronted with sexual abuse accusations, should deny everything. They should not apologize. They should call the accusers liars and try to destroy their reputation. We've seen what happens if you try acknowledging and apologizing.

      I'm going to guess this isn't the exact outcome that the people denouncing him wanted.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    226. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Go work in corporate for a year or two, you'll see this everywhere.

      Done that. Been there. Talked a lot with women. Never had a problem. Never saw someone else have a problem that wasn't their fault.

      If you keep getting in trouble with HR, you might want to rethink what you're doing.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    227. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      MRAs started popping up for the same reason Christians claim persecution: the crybabies can't do what they want any more. It can be pathetic watching members of a formerly dominant group as they lose their asshole licenses.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    228. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Let's get real. The average man is considerably larger and stronger than the average woman. The average man is also more likely to be in a position of power, having power or influence over the woman's job or other affairs. (That second one is going away, fortunately.) FWIW, the average man currently has more fighting experience and training.

      That means that, when a man is alone with a woman, who can't get away, the man can overcome physical resistance and do what he likes. A few men will do that, not many, but enough that women can't automatically assume a man is harmless. A few men with power will sexually harass women and implicitly suggest that their job prospects depend on what they do. Women know from general experience that they will be expected to accept a certain amount of harassment, so complaints are very likely not to do any good.

      The female engineers you knew were capable of giving as good as they got provided the man did not get physically aggressive. There was one occasion on which I stayed in a room with a man and a woman, pretending to read the bulletin board and ignoring them. She was doing perfectly well telling him off, and didn't need any help there. On the other hand, the man had occasionally talked about violence against women in a somewhat favorable way, and he could have wiped the floor with her. I stayed to provide a deterrent and, if things went bad, physical intervention.

      It's biology mixed with sociology. Given an unknown man, a woman doesn't know what might set the man off enough to be violent. Very probably, nothing will, but men have started violence enough times to make betting on that iffy.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    229. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That's not safe to do in a secluded location. The woman already knows the man is an asshole, and doesn't know if he might be a violent asshole.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    230. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I have to ask this. What planet are you living on?

      I've been in software for over forty years, working with men and women. I have never, repeat never, seen a man get into trouble because of a false accusation of sexual harassment. (Actually, I've never seen actual sexual harassment either.) I have never worried about saying something innocently and getting called out on it. I've talked freely to men and women and become friendly. It's not like I have social skills worth mentioning either.

      Now, it could be that my superior spiritual state causes people to behave themselves within a hundred meters of me. It could be that I'm not very observant. It could be that all you women feeling harassed should move to the Twin Cities in Minnesota. There's all sorts of possible reasons. However, it feels downright weird to read about all the problems you guys claim to have. It's like people were talking about occasionally being bitten by levitating sharks - I've never seen it.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    231. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      As one of your moral betters, I have to tell you that you've got our agenda all wrong. Sheesh.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    232. Re: Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Harassment can be a single incident. You seem to have this delusion that it has to be a pattern.

      Prostitutes can say "no". They also face a significant risk of violence if they do so very often. Subordinates can say "no", and will wonder ever after if they missed out on that promotion or got a lesser raise or a less desirable assignment because of it.

      It's the job of the pursuer to make sure the pursued feels free to say "no". Otherwise, it's coercion.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    233. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good job on writing pages about the disclaimer and not address the main point. You must be the person who would have derailed this without the disclaimer too. +1 troll points for you! Rest of us got his point just fine.

    234. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      No, it is not the job of the pursuer to make sure the pursued takes responsibility for their own actions. This obviously only applies to adults. Furthermore, again, a single incident is *not* harassment. Only when a woman (or other) person exercises their right to say no and the person continues does it qualify as harassment.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    235. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      I seem to remember Skyfall having a pretty awkward scene. Hell even the Honest Trailer for the movie called it out as glamorizing rape.

    236. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The words "persistently" , "remarks" (note the plural) and "actions" (note the plural) in the definitions YOU posted are indicating very explicitly MORE THAN ONCE. The reading comprehension failure is yours alone.

    237. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's weird, I followed your Collins link and saw this:

      "HarassmentÂisÂbehaviour which isÂintendedÂtoÂtrouble orÂannoyÂsomeone, forÂexampleÂrepeatedÂattacks on them orÂattemptsÂto cause themÂproblems."

      I wonder why it's hard to find an example of harassment that was a single, isolated comment or action?

    238. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      serviscope_minor and AmiMoJo are known trolls around here. Just mark them as enemy's and move on. Let the red dot let you know there is nothing of value in the comment.

    239. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shifting the goal posts a bit there.

      How so? I see his point as saying - and this is what you tell conservatives when conservative face backlash from liberals - freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom from consequences

      You're free to wear what you want as an expression. The rest of the world is free to comment on what you wear.

      A conservative may tell a woman she looks good (both the shirt, and her body)

      Meanwhile, a liberal will tell you you're hateful person committing thoughtcrime and should take it off if you're wearing a MAGA hat https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    240. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      They're the majority because they're the majority, and because they have all the institutional power and control over feminism and a disturbing amount of society at large.

      The reason they have that kind of power and influence is because of "useful idiots" like you using exactly the tired old apologia you're using right now to meatshield and whitewash.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    241. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      That's not safe to do in a secluded location. The woman already knows the man is an asshole, and doesn't know if he might be a violent asshole.

      And yet I catch a lot of crap when I suggest that men purposely avoid these situations.

      What is it with you male misandrysts? And don't deny it, because your the man is an asshole is proof. As time goes on, it seems that you misandrysts just want random men destroyed for something.

      Come up with a better solution than passive avoidance. I'll wait.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    242. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I have to ask this. What planet are you living on?

      This one, and I'll respond to that in response to your next sentence

      Here you go my misandryst compadre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... A North Carolina man's daughter lied when she accused him of raping her.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new... A man's wife falsely accused him of molesting his daughter.

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/trav... A woman accused a man of sexually molesting his daughter, while they were on an airplane flight, because she thought his skin was too dark ? I guess she just knew that he was pimping her out or something.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new... A social worker accuses a man of molesting his daughter - again, falsely, Apparently mens fault she did that

      http://www.latimes.com/local/l... Man falsely accused of molesting a child. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/man-... Man falsely accused of sexual assault by teenage girl. NOw on the the never occuring false accusations of sexual harassment in the workplace.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new... Yup, woman accuses a man of sexual harassment, ruins him.

      Here's one that should make you happy a man falsely accused of rape. He hung himself, ismn't that what men deserve? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men...''

      https://www.dailywire.com/news... et us not forget The Rolling Stone's shining moment, when what you probably were partying about, when the Rolling stone and "Jacie" a victim of gang rape by the patriarcial members of a Fraternity this was the real dirt on all men ar pigs, and rapid justice was needed. THere was just one little teeny weenie problem.

      It was completely false, as in a lie. Don't worry though, after all of the trouble for th eUniversity and th eFraternity, Jackie was never charge - and that is the important thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Perhaps you agree that the problem is so awful that innocent men must be destroyed to get rid of this probelm - after all you wrote in another pose that all men are assholse. Here is a link to re-affirm your cognitive dissonance.https://www.dailywire.com/news/23892/teen-vogue-columnist-claims-shes-not-concerned-if-emily-zanotti

      So anyhow - no, it is not likely that men will be falsely accused of sexual harassment. That much is true. Most women just want to get along in life and find love and friends, and happiness, and to avoid being abused. I suspect you disagree based on some of your remarks, but the same is true of most men.

      But there is a fair non zero chance of being falsely accused of something that will end your career without any chance of response, and that might get you sent to jail, and have to register as a sex offender.

      And society and the legal system is on her side, not yours. Even if you are eventually exonerated, you

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    243. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I once worked tech support in a large department of a public university.

      One of the other techs got in trouble for hugging a grad student who didn't appreciate it. Turns out she was a Mormon. Now, to be fair, this tech had something of a reputation as a horndog who hit on anything that moved, but it was just an unwelcome hug.

      He got written up. She wanted him to be fired.

    244. Re:Nothing changed but the language by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it was ambiguous at best. A former child prostitute, Bond comes into her shower unexpectedly... In real life most people would be freaked out, even if they did like the guy. In the end their association gets her shot in the head.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    245. Re: Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It is the job of the pursuer not to overstep, and not to coerce, even accidentally. The pursuer is the one driving the situation, and has responsibilities. Also, a sufficiently egregious single incident is harassment. As an example, a manager telling a subordinate that promotions might be based on how friendly she is is sexual harassment. Of course, a lot of egregious cases are better considered sexual assault.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    246. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Look, what I'm saying is that I have never seen a case where a woman unjustly accused a man of sexual harassment, despite how common other people seem to find it. Your assignment of motives to me is puerile and inaccurate.

      Do you have a cite for me saying all men are assholes? I don't remember saying that, and it's not something I'd say. It's conceivable that I said it in sarcasm or irony, although I still don't remember. Some men are assholes, and some women are also, but that's not the same thing.

      I do note that most of your cites are of false accusations not in the workplace, which is what we're talking about. Some people seem afraid to deal with women at work, and the concept is foreign to me, after something like forty-plus years in the tech business with employment or long-term contract work at nine different enterprises.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    247. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Some men are assholes. Got a problem with that? Some male assholes are violent male assholes. I think that's also obvious. A man harassing a woman is likely an asshole, and has the potential to be a violent asshole. This means that, if a man harasses a woman where there's nobody else around, the woman has to consider how not to get into a violent situation, and survival takes precedence.

      Of course, given a man and a woman in a secluded situation, if the man isn't harassing the woman, no problem. And, yes, men should avoid harassing women in secluded places, or non-secluded places for that matter.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    248. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Sounds like it worked out. The tech should not have hugged a woman without some sign that she wanted it (I tend to hold my arms out as if to hug, unless I know the woman), and got written up for it. Got a problem with that?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    249. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      It is the job of the pursuer to be perfect and read minds? You sure you don't want to re-think that? What about when a woman clearly flirts to get you to ask her out when she just wants the self esteem boost and then cries "creep" to her friends? It really sounds like you never interacted with any women frankly.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    250. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Look, what I'm saying is that I have never seen a case where a woman unjustly accused a man of sexual harassment, despite how common other people seem to find it. Your assignment of motives to me is puerile and inaccurate.

      Sorry, but I am not assigning motives. I am making statements of fact.

      You haven't seen a case, most likely because it is not common. However, you assign your not seeing a case as if it is the metric by which all cases must be judged. If it hasn't happened to you - that's very good. Hasn't happened to me either. However, my expeience does not lead me to pronounce other people's experience as invalid.

      Tell me, you say I am inaccurate. Are you crying fake news? Are the links I sent lies? It happens, no matter how it does not fit the narrative, it happens. As for puerile, well, hey to each his own. I don't believe in trickle down economics either, and the people who support it think I'm being stupd and unrealistic. But I digress.

      Do you have a cite for me saying all men are assholes? I don't remember saying that, and it's not something I'd say. It's conceivable that I said it in sarcasm or irony, although I still don't remember. Some men are assholes, and some women are also, but that's not the same thing.

      "That's not safe to do in a secluded location. The woman already knows the man is an asshole, and doesn't know if he might be a violent asshole." https://tech.slashdot.org/comm...

      Do you sense a trap?

      I do note that most of your cites are of false accusations not in the workplace, which is what we're talking about. Some people seem afraid to deal with women at work, and the concept is foreign to me, after something like forty-plus years in the tech business with employment or long-term contract work at nine different enterprises.

      So what is your point? The workplace somehow has an honesty press where not a lie can be told? It doesn't matter

      My point is this.

      A person can have their career destroyed simply by an accusation. No evidence, no due process, just an accusation.

      It makes sense in such an environment that someone wishing to avoid having their career destroyed, avoid the source of the accusations.

      Since all humans are capable of dissembling, it is important to be careful, and to reduce the risk. Avoidance of any situation that entails that risk is a sensible approach.

      Does any of that make sense to you? This seems like logic 101 to me. Risk avoidance based on an assessment of risk/reward. I play Ice Hockey. It's a lot riskier than my chances of being accused of sexual harassment. But its a hella good cardiovascular exercise, and great fun to be on a team. As Captain, I can help shape our success. Risk yes, but very high reward.

      As an example more related, I'm not at all likely to get into a serious automobile accident. But I wear a seatbelt regardless, because analysis shows that wearing a seatbelt is prudent, and can save your life. Not much reward in not wearing a seatbelt, and a big risk avoidance by wearning one.

      Avoiding the issue by minimal interaction with a person or persons who can destroy you would seem to accomplish women's objectives in reducing harassment. Not that I would, I'm at work to do science, not get laid or whatever the hell people who are harassing women are trying to accomplish. You might not like that, but no woman is harmed or annoyed, or even slightly inconvenienced. It's a win, and the more women who are not harassed, the better.

      What might bear some introspection is why my personal solution bothers you.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    251. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Some men are assholes. Got a problem with that? Some male assholes are violent male assholes. I think that's also obvious. A man harassing a woman is likely an asshole, and has the potential to be a violent asshole. This means that, if a man harasses a woman where there's nobody else around, the woman has to consider how not to get into a violent situation, and survival takes precedence.

      Noted that in another post, you denied what you jiust replied to. Seriously.

      Hey, tell me, why have I enraged you? I merely advocate for a very effective cure to the problem of men harassing women. When you find the source of your anger, you can start on the path of losing that anger. p.s. now's the time that you start calling me names. Always effective and wins the argument.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    252. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I got a problem with that - a hug is hardly a firing offense, no matter how unwanted.

      The point is that from his point of view, it was perfectly acceptable behavior and from hers it was over the line. You can't possibly make a generally applicable rule with that kind of subjective gulf between people. Call it a culture clash.

      Incidentally, there was nothing in the department's sexual harassment policy about hugging. The tech was not in a position of power over the student, and she didn't tell him his action was unwanted. He had no clue until she went to our HR manager.

    253. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      So, you're willing for me to do anything to you as long as it's perfectly acceptable from my point of view?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    254. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Noted that in another post, you denied what you jiust replied to. Seriously.

      That's rather vague for me to review what I said and explain what's wrong (probably your interpretation).

      Hey, tell me, why have I enraged you?

      You haven't. You have said things that I strongly disagree with, but that doesn't trigger rage in me. I will admit to feeling a bit grumpy recently, but I'm not angry at you. Maybe you should talk to someone to see why you're impelled to project feelings on others. When you find that out, you might be able to make better arguments.

      I merely advocate for a very effective cure to the problem of men harassing women.

      Here's another effective cure: arm all women, and teach them to shoot men who harass them. Very effective, I think you'll agree, so by that measure it's just as good as your proposal.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    255. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good job on writing pages about the disclaimer and not address the main point.

      Actually, I just didn't want to overly distract you, swb, but wanted to focus on the hostility inherent in your choice of a defensive disclaimer that presumed an attack by those you deplored.

      You must be the person who would have derailed this without the disclaimer too. +1 troll points for you! Rest of us got his point just fine.

      Too bad you ignored my point about your disclaimer indicating your own hostility as well the message I gave you about balancing your messaging in itself, swb, it'd be much more indicative of actually being capable of reason and thoughtfulness, but instead you resort to shallow attacks that are demonstrating your lack of authenticity.

      Not terribly surprising mind you, swb, but you could try something more than the feigned hand-wringing over trolling. Reality shows that, swb, I was seeking to get you to improve your own message.

    256. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but I am not assigning motives. I am making statements of fact.

      Okay, now let's look at some copy-and-paste quotes from your post that I replied to:

      Here's one that should make you happy a man falsely accused of rape.

      et us not forget The Rolling Stone's shining moment, when what you probably were partying about, when the Rolling stone and

      Not exactly a motive, but

      Perhaps you agree that the problem is so awful that innocent men must be destroyed to get rid of this probelm

      At least that one had "perhaps". Then again, perhaps you're being paid by some subsidiary of the Koch brothers. Perhaps you just haven't taken your anti-psychotics in too long. "Perhaps" is not, in normal conversation, a neutral and non-accusatory term.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    257. Re: Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The situation exists because of the pursuer. The situation is what it is because of the pursuer. The action is the pursuer's, and so are the consequences. The pursued will react based on what (typically) she perceives the situation to be, including the possible dangers if she says something the pursuer doesn't like. The pursuer is acting, and the pursued is reacting based on the pursuer's actions. Where is the responsibility supposed to reside, with the person who drives the situation or the person who has no reason to believe that she'll get out fully intact if she just says "no" too forcefully?

      Obviously, the pursuer is going to make mistakes, and they may well be honest mistakes. We all screw up now and then. However, the fact that people screw up sometimes with things they're responsible for doesn't mean the responsibility doesn't exist.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    258. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course not. But of all the things you can do to me, hugging is pretty innocuous. Nevertheless, if I tell you not to, I expect you not to. I wouldn't ignore it then try to get you fired.

      FFS, we live in a society now that is afraid to be hugged. What does that say about our culture?

    259. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      The situation exists because of humanity. Also, I've got news for you. If a woman wants to be pursued and you dont that can get you in trouble as well. It is painfully evident that you have a theory, but no experience at all.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    260. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      At least that one had "perhaps". Then again, perhaps you're being paid by some subsidiary of the Koch brothers. Perhaps you just haven't taken your anti-psychotics in too long. "Perhaps" is not, in normal conversation, a neutral and non-accusatory term.

      Finally, the end results of every conversation with either libertarians or some others here. You resort to your secret weapons. You get personal.

      Good work.

      I must admit, I get the anti-psychotics insult. The Koch Brothers bit is a little perplexing, if you've read any of my other posts. But hey. Your ideology has withstood the test.

      Although, you never did tell me what your solution was. Anyhow, good day sir,

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    261. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shifting the goal posts a bit there.

      How so? I see his point as saying - and this is what you tell conservatives when conservative face backlash from liberals - freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom from consequences

      And others of us see the point of distinction between believing somebody is doing something to appear sexually attractive and appearing repugnant.

      You're free to wear what you want as an expression. The rest of the world is free to comment on what you wear.

      Neither of these is exactly true. In fact, they deceive and misrepresentation the situation.

      A conservative may tell a woman she looks good (both the shirt, and her body)

      Meanwhile, a liberal will tell you you're hateful person committing thoughtcrime and should take it off if you're wearing a MAGA hat https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      You're also an idiot wearing cheap mind-control products.

      Oh wait, I'm sorry, they're overpriced and exploitative. Sorry swb. You got ripped off.

    262. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      You haven't. You have said things that I strongly disagree with, but that doesn't trigger rage in me. I will admit to feeling a bit grumpy recently, but I'm not angry at you. Maybe you should talk to someone to see why you're impelled to project feelings on others. When you find that out, you might be able to make better arguments

      I certainly am not projecting. I merely ask questions. I have noted in life, that questions often incite upset in people - ;perhaps I erred in using the word rage, because that word itself incites..... but I digress. No, I'm not a terribly angry person. I have my moments, as we all do. but I usually have to be triggered - and I'll even confess her what triggers me - it's fundamentalist Christians. That's based on growing up in a family of Extremely conservative catholics with extreme Fundamentalist Christian Grandparents.

      Dealing with workplace sexual harassment hardly registers on the trigger scale. I'm inherently an analytical person, and I do a lot of risk/benefit analysis on every thing I do. Projection might be in action if I was agitating to putting women out of the workplace because of a bunch of stupid old sexist memes about them and men - where I cannot handle being around them because I fear I'm going to lose control over myself. It just doesn't fit.

      I merely advocate for a very effective cure to the problem of men harassing women.

      Here's another effective cure: arm all women, and teach them to shoot men who harass them. Very effective, I think you'll agree, so by that measure it's just as good as your proposal.

      Jeeze David, at least be a little funny with your second amendment solution sarcasm.

      Or were you serious? In that case - no, it wouldn't work. sidearms are a bad solution to alomst any human interaction problem. Poeple should not use htem except under extreme life threatening duress. We already see too many people killing someone, then killing themselves.

      Have any non-sarcastic solutions? I mean, it is pretty simple.:

      Men are harassing women.

      Men need to leave women alone.

      So as a man, you leave them alone.

      That would seem to be the goal, yet for some reason, for some people, it must be done in a different manner? But never explained, never a solution. With the new found power of accusation and destruction, there nees to be some solution.

      Otherwise it resembles just glee by some onlookers are some women's bad experiences, a sort of voyeristic experience, where no actual solution is desired, because it's so much fun for a guy to be destroyed, whether it's true or not

      . I mean, unless you are just having fun arguing and now starting to dip into insults, I'd love to reset the conversation, and have rational discussion on what is wrong with the concept, and different solutions as offered up by the more "progressive" (or insert what you want to be called) people.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    263. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Men are harassing women.

      #notallmen

    264. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Men are harassing women.

      #notallmen

      You hit on the exact problem. NAMALT and NAWALT.

      But some are. And our problem is that while men generally do not identify as a gender based group, women do. And I think that this creates a problem.

      Which is that men are quite capable of identifying groups, and make risk/reward decisions on almost everything in life. When men see the results of the latest hunt, where there is no necessity for anything other than an accusation to destroy their career, ordinary men who would never think of bothering any woman will do that assessment and come to the conclusion that there is no upside to associating with a group of people who have such power.

      Now let's eliminate gender from the equation. If a person considering association with a violent gang does a risk/reward assessment, and comes to the conclusion that associating with a particular gang has very little upside, and they might get killed or arrested, then making that decision not to associate with the gang, most people would say - "Good prudent decision. You have chosen to remove yourself from a dangerous situation. Very smart!"

      However, when applying this to a group that can destroy your life in a different way, the mere mention of not associating with that gender based group elicts howls of outrage. Especially odd, since the decision to not associate goes a long way toward eliminating a problem that is so severe that they consider destroying a man's career is a suitable punishment for an accusation. Seems like a plausible goal on their part,

      And to the concept of Not all men are like that, not all women are like that - ypou cannot tell by looking at any particular person what is in their mind. So avoiding association with a group that has no upside, and a serious downside makes sense.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    265. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not what'cha say, but how ya say it.

    266. Re: Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The situation exists because of humanity.

      In other words, you're denying all moral responsibility for your actions with women? If you're not responsible for your actions because humanity, who is?

      I fail to see the trouble you can get into not pursuing a woman, unless you're worried about false accusations.

      My romantic experience is limited in variety, but I have quite a few years in married to a wonderful woman.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    267. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Um, I get personal? I quote what you wrote, which is personal insults, and I'm getting personal? Should I refrain from quoting you in the future, lest you take it personally?

      Solution? I said I never saw a problem, which is a true statement, covering over forty years of regular employment and reasonably long-term contract work at nine different places. Other people say they saw the problem all over the place. I noted that I find that puzzling.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    268. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      False accusations abound in the real world. Prisons are full of men who wronged a woman, or the woman perceived a wrong, and she fabricated a story of assault or worse. I myself had a woman claim I assaulted her (and I never met her before; it was I over a parking space). Luckily her testimony contradicted the laws of physics. It's good you found a good woman. Plenty of those exist too, and I am not saying their aren't plenty of legitimate cases either. But the world of male / female interaction isn't as simple as you think it is I'm afraid.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    269. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The Second Amendment solution is hardly realistic (although in the case of one man I know, it could solve some problems), but you were talking about your solution as effective and not pushing it otherwise. The firepower solution would be effective, and has pretty much nothing else going for it.

      You are proposing to isolate women. This will hurt workplace function and hurt women's careers - and I'm talking all women, not just problem ones, not even ones who have any tolerance for fake sexual harassment claims. It has a strong passive-aggressive smell, and it takes drastic action on the basis of stereotypes of women that do not in general apply. It is not a route to a real solution.

      I'd really like to know the extent of the problem. I know a lot of people here are worried, but I've never seen it happen, and I've been around a while.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    270. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Of course it's not all men. That doesn't really help. A few percent is enough to make a big problem. If a woman interacts with a hundred different men and one harasses her, she's still been harassed. (This works in reverse also. One catcall can be ignored, and you can't fault a man too much for one. Sixty different men, each with one catcall, is like running a gauntlet, and, I'm told, very disturbing.)

      Similarly, there are very few women who'd even think of filing a false harassment charge. (There are probably considerably more who file accusations based on what they perceive as harassment and the man involved doesn't.) The feminists I know would be disgusted at a fake accusation. Proposing to ostracize all women is about as fair as ignoring all harassment.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    271. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Hiu David, I thought you might enjoy this.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com... Now I don't know if the guy was guilty or not, but I suspect that some people are very pleased with his death.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    272. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      You are proposing to isolate women.

      No I am not. I am proposing to isolate men from women. There is a big difference.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    273. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      No I am not. I am proposing to isolate men from women. There is a big difference.

      OK, I'm curious. What's the difference between isolating women from men and men from women? In either case, we're talking very restricted contact between men and women.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    274. Re: Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You seem to have drifted topic between "The idea that "people feel they can't say no" and that is the problem of the pursuer rather than the pursued is ludicrous." and now. I'm arguing that a pursuer (probably a man) cannot set up responsibility for a pursued (probably a woman) without previous agreement.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    275. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      I can't even parse what you wrote.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    276. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      No I am not. I am proposing to isolate men from women. There is a big difference.

      OK, I'm curious. What's the difference between isolating women from men and men from women? In either case, we're talking very restricted contact between men and women.

      A woman can do as she pleases. A male without a chaperone is not allowed around her. No allowing a man and woman to be alone in a rom as company policy. Either a chaperone, or the man must leave, or be in violation of company policy (or the law). The woman by default is considered the victim. Tne man is by default the transgressor.

      If you haven't figured out yet, I agree that the contact would be very restricted. That would be sad. My point, seemingly lost in this back and forth, is that men by and large, make risk/reward analysis decisions on almost every thing they do. I do it every day. I play hockey, which is fraught with risk, but breings me great rewards.

      https://vote.net/2017/12/12/wo... a part of interest in the article:

      Female staffers and lobbyists who returned to the Capitol last week for pre-session meetings, discovered many male legislators will no longer meet with them privately. Accustomed to Tallahassee’s Southern culture, where men and women casually and routinely greet each other with hugs, legislators are doing an awkward dance to replace a hug with a handshake. And the fear of retaliation — against women who brought forward allegations or those who may in the future — is as raw as the fear that legislators’ political enemies could turn sexual harassment claims into new political weapons.

      “I had a senator say, ‘I need my aide here in the room because I need a chaperone,’ ” said Jennifer Green, a veteran lobbyist, after meeting with a senator in his Capitol office to discuss a client’s issue. “I said, ‘Senator, why do you need a chaperone? I don’t feel uncomfortable around you, do you feel uncomfortable around me? ‘Well,’ he said, ‘anyone can say anything with the door shut.’ “

      Is this wrong that he does this? Is this harming the woman in any way shape or form, excepting that she notes that he does not trust her? He will have a witness to the fact that he never harassed or abused the woman in any way. The woman will be safe from harassment. That has to be rather uncomfortable, no?

      Trust is not something you can legislate. And there is no law that says that anyone in the workplace must be friendly towards anyone else.

      Having lived through several years of this exact response to draconian sexual harassment rules ( the rule was anything a woman considered as sexual harassment was by definition, sexual harassment, and was a fireable offense. ) what is happening right now is exactly what happened then.

      It is a result of unintended consequences. The concept was that men and women would carry on like great friends, no differences at all, if only just the men who were harassing the women would stop. That sounds good, but when faced with vague rules, like today's often decades old accusations with no proof needed, or my old experience of "Whatever she thinks is harassment is harassment", the target will almost certainly take defensive measures when a hug held a second too long is sexual assault. The answer is not time the hug, it is to not hug.

      The sad part? All of the creeps will just continue being creeps. So its a double whammy for women. Decent men will protect themselves, and the jerks will just go on being jerks. It not only doesn't cure the problem, it makes things worse. A Pyrrhic victory at best.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    277. Re: Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Let's go back.

      The idea that "people feel they can't say no" and that is the problem of the pursuer rather than the pursued is ludicrous.

      No, it is not the job of the pursuer to make sure the pursued takes responsibility for their own actions.

      I'm disagreeing with those statements. Your latest post (before this one) was discussing false accusations, which is a separate matter. You also claimed that male-female interaction isn't as simple as I think it is, without bothering to find out how simple I think it is.

      Let me use an example. Andrew wants to do something sexual with Betty, and expresses this, although Betty doesn't want to do that. Ideally, Betty would say she didn't want it, and that would be that. However, there are men who will react to such a refusal violently or vengefully. This means that Betty has reason to fear that honesty might end badly for her. If she refuses Andrew, there's a chance that Andrew will insult her and do something sexual anyway. There's a chance that Andrew will make her life unpleasant, particularly if they have some connection (classmates or colleagues or something). If Andrew has some sort of influence over Betty's job evaluations or promotions, Betty might fear that her career was at risk. If some of these cases might happen, Betty might feel that she doesn't dare refuse Andrew. There really is a continuum of risk from "he might do it by force" to "he'll kill my baby if I don't", and nobody would expect Betty to refuse Andrew as you get to a certain point on the continuum.

      Betty doesn't have the responsibility to be honest with Andrew despite it being risky. Andrew needs to make sure that what he wants to do is OK with Betty.

      There will be misunderstandings. People aren't perfect. People will make mistakes and do wrong things. That doesn't affect the basic morality.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    278. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      They are the same subject. I cannot be responsible for another person's perceptions of actions. I cannot offend you; if you are offended you choose to be offended. You have the responsibility bass ackwards.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    279. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It looks like the alternative, for women, is to be sexually harassed or to be semi-ostracized, the way you put it. When people either disbelieved accusations of harassment or didn't do anything about it, they got sexually harassed. When people started believing the claims and doing something, women got shunted aside. There is nothing even vaguely fair about this for women in general. Once more, men come out on top. This is the sort of crap that has women talking about the patriarchy, because it's a case of heads creepy men win and women lose, tails women lose, so it's impossible for women to win. You've even said that paying attention to what women say made things worse, so, as it typically has been the case, women are punished for speaking up.

      In the meantime, it takes credible accusations of raping teenagers and the fact of being watched in malls because of stalking teenagers to barely defeat a Senate candidate, and Trump remains President. There's little substantive happening to stop real harassers.

      The problem is real, and you remain a part of it.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    280. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It looks like the alternative, for women, is to be sexually harassed or to be semi-ostracized, the way you put it.

      No, it is not, and you are possibly reading into what I say from the persepctive of your own narrative. Upon the first occasion of harassment, the woman needs to report it immediately first to HR, with a tacit understanding that law enforcement is next. My wife was the victim of some pretty egregious harassment, and rather than wait 20 years, she told me about it, and reported it to the owner the next morning. Reaction was swift, merciless, and very effective. She was never disbelieved, there was none of the meme of "Well, what were you wearing?" or "were you flirting with him?"

      If your house was broken into and robbed, would you wait years to report it?

      If someone stole your identity online would you allow it to go on for 25 years?

      If someone rear-ended your car, would you wait to report it to your insurance company until decades later?

      I don't for a second believe that women should accept sexual harassment at work, and would prefer you not accuse me of it. Avoid that, and I will avoid calling you a person who believes that innocent men who are destroyed is an acceptable situation because all men deserve being punished as a group. Let's be intellectually honest, David.

      The problem is real, and you remain a part of it.

      Actually, if you support waiting until the statute of limitations expires to report sexual harassment, you are a metric shiiutload more a part of the problem than I ever could be. Not that I go around cavilierly throwing around insults like what appears to fit your narrative. So anyhow, please tell me how my stand of immediate reportage and immediate justice is being a part oif the problem? Ever have a loved one be severely sexually harassed?

      You are operating from a digital narrative where you either are a sexual harasser and support monsters like Trump and Moore, or you support every and all accuasations and suppoprt an end to the rule of law, because people like Ol Olsoc do not agree with your narrative.

      For what I personally believe? I believe Moore is a pedophile and likes underage women who are past puberty but not yet able to give consent. I believe that Weinstien is a creepy pig who any normal woman would never consent to having sex with. I believe that the present occupant has a nasty issue as well, and the legal settlements would indicate that is true. But here's the rub, at least one of the women who accused Moore of getting her pregnant was making a false accusation. She was a political plant from Project Veritas, Run by conservative activist James O'Keefe. https://www.politico.com/story... The aim was to discredit the Washington Post by a false plant in order to discredit all of their Roy Moore reporting. That is the weaponized version of #metoo.

      Ever spend time with Judges? They can tell you that people lie all the time, and the person's gender does not make that more or less likely. Men can lie, and women can lie. And that's why we have courts and judges. Because usually someone is lying. Maybe it's the man, maybe its the woman. Maybe some people care, maybe some don't care. Which are you?

      Rather than be a part of the problem as you suggest, I am part of wanting truth to prevail. Judging from your wanting to paint me with a brush dipped in the paint of your narrative, it appears that you are not concerned with the truth at all. But there is a great way to ascertain truth, or at least get as close to it as can reasonably be hoped. The courts.

      In these cases, a quick accusation has a lot more veracity than a 20 year wait. In my wife's case, the approach was simple. a little over 12 hours went by - Next morning... "This happened, and do we want to take care of it here and now, or do you want to contact your l

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    281. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      And suddenly I'm accusing you of being in favor of harassment? You talked about delays in reporting it, but requiring a chaperone isn't about old cases of harassment. It's about a woman reporting it (correctly or maliciously) pretty much immediately. I'm also glad that your wife complained about harassment and got results, but it's rather beside the point.

      Let me try to lay out what I'm thinking more plainly.

      A few years ago, complaints of sexual harassment were typically ignored, except sometimes in business settings. If a celebrity harassed a woman, tough. We heard complaints about Bill Cosby before the big revelation. Who was harassing who in the movie business was known inside the business, and nothing was done. It took something extremely flagrant to hurt a politician (and Gary Hart telling reporters to follow him and leading them straight to his mistress wasn't really about harassment). A man who talked about harassing women who had a lot of very credible complaints against him was voted to be the Republican nominee for President, then elected. Pretty much the best a woman could hope for was not to get further harassed and not have her future career damaged.

      I think we can agree that this was bad.

      The reason women shut up about it until now is that publicly talking about it The reason we're seeing them complain about old harassment is that they feel less endangered in reporting it, and they feel like revealing it might have some practical effect. This has the disadvantage that it's really hard to verify a 10-year-old accusation, and very hard to react to it. A group of accusations makes a quite plausible case. This made some men nervous, I'd suspect the ones with the dirty consciences being more nervous in general.

      As a reaction, some men started interacting with women only under restricted conditions. Clearly this isn't because some guy harassed someone back in '98. If she wants to bring that up, she will. This is about not being accused of harassment now. This is the current situation, and it isn't good for women (or men, for that matter) either.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    282. Re: Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You are responsible for not sexually harassing (or worse) women. It's up to you to figure out how not to. You do need to make sure the woman doesn't feel intimidated into not objecting before assuming there's no objection.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    283. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Again, one doesn't have to harass to be accused of harassment.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    284. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      And suddenly I'm accusing you of being in favor of harassment?

      You indeed wrote that I was a part of the problem did you not?

      You talked about delays in reporting it, but requiring a chaperone isn't about old cases of harassment. It's about a woman reporting it (correctly or maliciously) pretty much immediately. I'm also glad that your wife complained about harassment and got results, but it's rather beside the point.

      Sorry David, it is exactly 100 percent the point

      It simply does not fit in with your narrative. Immediate reportage lends veracity to the accusation. It is very easy to see how upset a victim is or isn't, and the accused is often shocked to find out they have been nabbed. In my wife's case, it happened while being alone, but there wasn't one question as to whether she was telling the truth or not. That does not fit in with your narrative either. I believe that we have pretty much reached the end of any useful discourse, Even with offering insights based on having a spouse that is a survivor of some rather extreme sexual harassment, you simply reject my stance. To the point where you feel that calling me a part of the problem is somehow justifiable. You are perhaps not as wonderful a person as you think you are. Any I use the words perhaps because I prefer to be civilized.

      Good for you. Your faith has withstood an experience based opinion that does not fit with your narrative.

      Let me close with this though. Shame on you. Peace out.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    285. Re:Nothing changed but the language by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Just another reply, and I'll stop.Yesterday Brother Stair, a kook preacher in South Carolina, was arrested on several charges related to sexual assault of a teenage girl. These occured this summer, and the young lady reported the infractions happened over this summer, and reported them, investigators believed her and after evidence gathering. Arrested the man. https://www.postandcourier.com...

      This is especially interesting in that this occured in a cult-like atmosphere, considered very difficult to get accusations out of victims at all, much less timely ones. Almost certain that this creep will spend the rest of his life in jail.

      Justice delayed is justice denied. Which doesn't fit in your narrative.

      Respectfully submitted from a part of the problem, Ol Olsoc.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    286. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go murder a reporter.

    287. Re: Nothing changed but the language by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0

      Yay, my childish little stalker is back! I missed your inane and repetitive little posts that show what a little douchebag coward you are! Welcome back!

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    288. Re: Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      True. It's also possible to harass someone unintentionally.

      Unlike a large number of Democratic Senators, I'm not out to purge the world of people who aren't perfect in their personal conduct. I'm in favor of establishing responsibility on the understanding that we all screw up sometimes.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    289. Re:Nothing changed but the language by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      My point was that if you're going to avoid interacting with women because people are taking accusations seriously, you're continuing to mess up women's lives, and therefore part of the overall problem. Being in favor of sexual harassment would also make you part of the problem.

      And of course prompt reporting is best. (I really don't know much about this "narrative" you seem to think I have.) There are very good reasons why lots of women didn't report anything at the time, and are coming out now that they think someone will actually listen to them, but nothing you do now will make you immune to those accusations. It's great that your wife spoke out, great that she was heard, great in that action was taken. The second and third are not a given. It looks like justice was done despite the fact that there wasn't another witness. This is good.

      However, this doesn't explain why you're going to try to protect yourself from immediate accusations, if they can be judged fairly.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  2. alternatively by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "specifically designed to no longer accommodate them, instead, to literally cause an error code to kick out of the processing"

    Perhaps because the process as it currently exists can't handle input for individuals who have previously been recorded as both sexes having been coded to expect each record to have male or female. In which case kicking it out manually probably expedites the solution.

    1. Re:alternatively by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, that was my first thought as well. They're trying to make it out like some malicious conspiracy to keep people down, when really it was likely due to someone not considering it a possibility, either in general or simply specifically to their system. Coming from the medical field, if our data showed a gender change I would consider that an error, even though IRL my feelings are "you do you". Because we deal not with how someone wants to be referred as, but with the actual organs a person has inside them.

      But maybe even in my field there are cases that should not be considered an error, at which point a human can try to work through the problem. Because when a human encounters something unexpected, it can try to figure out a solution. But when a simple computer program does, all it can do is shout "I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THIS!".

  3. Wait! Stop! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    I'm all out of popcorn and have to go to the shops to get some.

    Could you all hold off for half an hour?

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
    1. Re:Wait! Stop! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your popcorn comes with an agenda that has been proven repeatedly to be false and on the wrong side of history despite its popularity at the moment. Fuck off.

    2. Re:Wait! Stop! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Your popcorn comes with an agenda

      No, I can assure you I usually have my popcord unflavoured. If it's freshly popped just the taste of the corn alone is delicious.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:Wait! Stop! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your popcorn comes with an agenda

      No, I can assure you I usually have my popcord unflavoured. If it's freshly popped just the taste of the corn alone is delicious.

      That's what he's talking about. Meritocracy and the illusion of "flavour neutrality". Claiming that it's possible to choose popcorn on the grounds of freshness when actually it's clear discrimination against industrially produced highly "flavoured" popcorn.

  4. unexpected defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "It's all a matter of power, Hicks pointed out -- and women have never had their share of it,"

    It's a fair argument, but rednecks would be one of the last groups I'd expect to stand up for women's rights.

    1. Re:unexpected defense by kenh · · Score: 1

      It's a fair argument, but rednecks would be one of the last groups I'd expect to stand up for women's rights.

      Your ignorance is showing - southerners, AKA "rednecks" are polite to women in the south, put them on a pedestal - it is the northerners that treat women as crappy as they treat men in a quest for "equality".

      --
      Ken
    2. Re:unexpected defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True that. I'm a European, I don't know better. What's a better synonym for hick then?

  5. Oh really by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "It's all a matter of power, Hicks pointed out -- and women have never had their share of it,"

    Here is some blatant Marxist propaganda, and very false at that.
    Rich versus poor, Higher class versus lower class, oppressor versus oppressed, winner versus loser, fit versus unfit, selected by nature for life versus selected by nature for death....and then they project this pattern, to which I could concede to an honest Marxist that there is at least some truth, onto something to which there is absolutely no truth: left ear versus right ear, left eye versus right eye, left hand versus right hand, left brain versus right brain, man versus women.
    First they begin by greatly (and most often disingenuously and falsely) characterizing the tradition wealth disparity.
    Then when you're worked up about that they slide in a similar image trying to get you to look on something entirely different with the same eyes. There are critical differences that you're more likely to ignore in an emotional state. They build up this emotion in the culture day after day, year after year, generation after generation until there is enough of this capital of human irrationality to slice a civilization in halves like a hatchet would split a bone lengthwise, and then they consume the marrow.
    Men and woman are complementary forces with distinct tendencies in behavior, many of which seem opposite for a given situation. I'm not going to go on about this, but that Damore Memo doesn't go nearly far enough. This is supposed by the Marxists to be "sexist". Sorry, but by your definition nature itself is "sexist", "wrong" and "evil".
    When a human tribe encounters a problem, men and women (are supposed to) attend to their different domains in order to cover all the aspects of the situation.

    This fool featured in the article goes on to attribute the necessities of economic forces to the ill will of "the patriarchy" with absolutely no logical argument.
    The simplest observation flips his narrative upside down to show its yellow belly: the industrialists don't care how the work gets done, they just want more work to get done. They don't see their slaves, so why would they care what they look like? They only care how to extract more labor from the population, which is why they drive wedges between us with the media, schools, and universities, which, of course, they own nearly all of. In this way they open up more shafts in their huge mine through unstable areas of the earth, getting at the gold they never could have reached before.

    So really, all that is going on right now is that some rich people are telling you that certain other rich people are bad so they can take their wealth and create even more disparity all the while giving you a tiny sliver of it and using technology to distract you from the overall astronomical growth of wealth of humanity.

    Conspiracy theory you say?
    This easy rejection of anything you don't want to hear is a canker, so I'll give a brief rebuttal. In short, look at the stock market. Everyone is invested in everyone else's business. So a collective interest forms. When you have a great deal of wealth you can afford to invest in everyone who shows promise, and so you profit greatly from the vast majority of successes and so gain influence over every success, many to a great degree. If you don't end up controlling a given success, odds are you know some one who does and has a significant stake in one of your own investments.
    And so the birthing grounds for conspiracy take form.

    --
    My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    1. Re:Oh really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > When you have a great deal of wealth you can afford to invest in everyone who shows promise, and so you profit greatly from the vast majority of successes and so gain influence over every success,

      Only because many of those very wealthy are shielded from the consequences of failure. Take a good look at Donald Trump's series of bankruptcies. He, and investors like him, are sheltered from having to pay for the losses of their risk taking.

    2. Re:Oh really by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1

      You found a way to mention Donald Trump, very good!

      But the thing is: how are you asserting that their failures outweigh their successes?
      I don't disagree, but I think it's important to understand the mechanisms and to keep things straight as to when a given thing is a failure or a success and to not cast judgement were it is not due.

      >Only because many of those very wealthy are shielded from the consequences of failure. Take a good look at Donald Trump's series of bankruptcies. He, and investors like him, are sheltered from having to pay for the losses of their risk taking.
      Unless of course those bankruptcies were just cannibalization of investments that were projected to outlive their purpose soon. What if they served a purpose and were a net gain and were just scuttled before they became a net loss?

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    3. Re: Oh really by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      That's a big load of crazy nonsense, but If the alt-right wants to address income inequality, the left should consider working with them in achieving this goal. It's the most damaging form of inequality of our time.

      (And afterwards we can get back to slowly steamrolling them on social justice issues ;-) ).

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    4. Re: Oh really by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 0

      How typical, you declare yourself a winner based on the actions of those who you commend but have nothing to do with, and refuse to provide an argument or do any work yourself.
      Yep, that's leftism.

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    5. Re:Oh really by kenh · · Score: 1

      He, and investors like him, are sheltered from having to pay for the losses of their risk taking.

      By spending Other People's Money, he avoided risking his own, and gave his investors the opportunity to profit along with him. If they didn't, it was an unsuccessful investment, nothing more.

      --
      Ken
    6. Re: Oh really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You probably don't know bankruptcy means you can't pay the bills. If there is a net gain in that situation it is fraud.

  6. Programming or operating ? by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Women dominated computer programming in its early days

    Reading the articles about it, it sounds more like they dominated operating the machines, not designing the actual software (or hardware).

    1. Re:Programming or operating ? by darthsilun · · Score: 0

      So let me get this straight. Because many of them were just operators, therefore we should relegate all of them to the dustbin of history, right?

      There have been a lot of male operators too. Shall we apply the same standard for them?

    2. Re:Programming or operating ? by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because many of them were just operators, therefore we should relegate all of them to the dustbin of history, right?

      No, we should just refer to them as operators, not programmers.

      There have been a lot of male operators too. Shall we apply the same standard for them?

      Why not ? Are you a sexist ?

    3. Re:Programming or operating ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of them learned to program. And taught other women. This happened. Learn. History is a wonderful thing.

    4. Re:Programming or operating ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are unfamiliar with the meme of the male systems operator, considered the lackey who changes the paper in the printers, clicks the same button over and over, and has no real concept of what is going on? And is happy do so that they can go home and light up a blunt and bask in sub-mediocrity?

      Wow, not actually in the business are you?

    5. Re:Programming or operating ? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Some of them learned to program. And taught other women. This happened. Learn. History is a wonderful thing.

      Sure. But that's different than claiming they "dominated" the field.

    6. Re:Programming or operating ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem really upset about that.

    7. Re:Programming or operating ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Treat operators badly? Certainly seems to happen to operators where I work. Latest is that they're doing 12 hour shifts 4 days on 4 days off like emergency service workers, just to minimize staffing costs.

    8. Re:Programming or operating ? by hey! · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, I'm old enough to have met a number of these women, so I can clear a few things up.

      First of all, in the very earliest electronic computers there wasn't really such a strong division between operating a computer and programming it. You had to rewire the computers for each new problem. Second, there wasn't always such a strong division between operations and programming even in stored program computers; that division was sharper in business data processing than it was in scientific and technical computing. Third, yes, there were lots and lots of women who absolutely were what we'd consider "programmers" today.

      You have to understand a few things. First, computers really took off in WW2, and a shortage of men on the homefront opened up a lot of jobs for women. I knew a woman (passed away now) who got a degree in math from an Ivy League university; her expected career path was marriage, but instead she went to work programming on a number of early computers, from Harvard's Mark 1 (1944) through MIT's Whirlwind (early to mid 50s). However interesting these jobs were, they were always viewed as temporary. At first it was only until the soldier came back from the war, and then she was expected to marry at any time and retire. Since the pay was low and there were no other jobs for math geek women other than school teacher, that's what she ended up doing.

      I remember as late as the late 70s there were still many data processing departments with almost entirely female staff and a male supervisor (i.e., no career advancement path). In the early 80s my wife was a member of the first class in her graduate school to be half female; yet the data processing department was staffed with young women who were expected to marry and retire. In addition to operations they did many of the programming tasks you'd give to a student these days, since back then even graduate students wouldn't have had much computer experience). The faculty called the information processing staff -- and I am NOT making this up -- "data dollies".

      There was another path to programming that would be surprising to younger people. Most men before 1980 didn't know how to operate a keyboard. Rather than *learn* how, it was customary to hand off handwritten programs to a low-paid typist or (in the case of punch cards) a keypuncher, who was invariably a woman. Naturally the clever one figured this programming thing out, and in the 80s it was still common to meet women who'd learned programming this way. Their role in computing was largely as cheap temporary labor, but by then some of them were starting to be viewed as career women.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    9. Re:Programming or operating ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quit picking on Creimer.

    10. Re:Programming or operating ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, I can't find any stats indicating that women ever made up more than about 1/3 of programmers, let alone > 50%.

      https://computinged.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/programmer-numbers.png

    11. Re:Programming or operating ? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm old enough to have met a number of these women, so I can clear a few things up.

      First of all, in the very earliest electronic computers...

      Aside from the good points you make on this thread, I shall look forward to when you post some old stories from those times. I find the oral histories are often richer because of the different focus.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  7. Re:No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The PGOTUS and a bunch of Congress Critters too, to the tune of $17M in payouts that you and I – the taxpayers – paid for.

    Not good value for my tax dollars.

    I'm currently out of mod points or I'd mod you back up. The Nazis don't like the truth.

  8. Government Bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when humans were in the loop, petitions to change gender on national insurance cards generally went through, but when the computer came in, the system was "specifically designed to no longer accommodate them, instead, to literally cause an error code

    That sounds like a requirements fault. Maybe somebody should fix systems that fail to adapt the legislative changes relevant to them? Or even audit and sign off the requirements before they are used to implement systems? Noo, that would be impossible since we are not building a house here.

  9. Women in management? by darthsilun · · Score: 1, Interesting

    That's funny, in my 35 year career as a software engineer I've had my share; perhaps 40% of my managers have been women. And they were generally pretty good too. I can't say the same for the men managers I've had. There were one or two who were atrocious.

    And yes, I'm male.

    1. Re:Women in management? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until that number is up to 50%, we must keep up the fight and must keep accusing you timid code monkeys of sexual harassment until you cower before our vaginas!

    2. Re:Women in management? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's funny, in my 35 year career as a software engineer I've had my share; perhaps 40% of my managers have been women. And they were generally pretty good too. I can't say the same for the men managers I've had. There were one or two who were atrocious.

      And yes, I'm male.

      I've had two men and two women managers. I can't actually say I have a preference. The one woman manager listened well when I complained about the lead being useless, but ultimately my performance review looked pretty average, and she did bring up what was likely my leads complaints about not understanding architecture. (Isn't it ironic that people in power often bitch about the things they are deficient in. Projection is rampant. I'm sorry, but building everything from scratch in a low level language without libraries is insane.) Either way, she listened well to that rant as well, but as far as taking action, I've not seen it. I'm guessing I got at least two or three times as much done as my lead, but it certainly isn't reflected in that review.

      The one man who was my manager was technically knowledgeable. He was also far too busy to use that knowledge, which made it more dangerous. Still, his most irritating personally quirk was his pushing people to promise more than they can deliver. I refused, and basically got shunted to the side with a junior colleague assigned over me. The junior colleague got a promotion to my level recently. I'm not sure about his current work, but I know when we worked together my work actually worked correctly and did the task assigned, whereas his crashed a lot, with him blaming the crashes on other peoples code.

      My other managers have kind of been a wash. I might even end up working indirectly for the man again next year, but if I did I'll have a decent team lead this time, which will get rid of most of the issues. I applied to another group as well in the hopes of a promotion, since they need those a grade higher.

    3. Re:Women in management? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's funny, in my 20+ year career as a software developer I've had about a 35/65 split of female to male managers and the only time I've ever had an issue was with one of my female managers (incompetent and defensive about it to the point of backstabbing people she thought knew her secret). See? Aren't random anecdotes fun?

  10. Zero emprical evidence by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But plenty of totally unverifiable anecdotes!
    Sounds like a good basis to instigate social change!

    --
    My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
  11. Just harassment. In tech, in everything. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've been harassed by men. I've been harassed by women. in my case anyway, none of it has ever been sexual. Just because it's between a man and a woman doesn't automatically make it sexual harassment.

    1. Re: Just harassment. In tech, in everything. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've only worked with maybe a dozen women, hundreds of men, as a software developer. Every case of harrassment has been from men, directed at men. Some of those cases directed at me. Left one job as an intern due to it. 10 years later it happened again, but I was prepared, with zero tolerance for bs.. After some minor fireworks the aggressor quit. Admittedly was close to bailing myself, it dragged on for some time. Point is if I was female, it would have been all too easy to put it down to gender. When instead, they were just socially maladjusted pricks.

  12. A lot of the problem with "harassment" by DeplorableCodeMonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is that so many young women today are utterly deluded about their attractiveness. I have seen plenty of women who, all made up and ready for a night on the town, are no better than a "6" who seriously believe they're hot stuff. Like really believe they're hawwwwt and normal men should count themselves lucky to even buy them coffee. It's really bad with the college-educated set who also often scoff at the idea of blue collar men, even if they make more money than the average man in their social circle.

    This is why our grandmothers' generation often cannot believe what they're hearing when they drill down into what a lot of "harassment" is. It's because they're thinking "honey, you ain't the prettiest girl in the office, you keep acting like a stuck up bitch to guys who are an even match for you and you're liable to end up a cat herder in your 50s."

    1. Re:A lot of the problem with "harassment" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have to admit I don't see the connection with this one... Yeah, having people delude themselves and acting like assholes isn't harassment, it's being an asshole. Harassment would be if they WERE being hit on places, particularly if they didn't want to be and their signals/statements were being ignored.

    2. Re:A lot of the problem with "harassment" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      I have seen plenty of women who, all made up and ready for a night on the town, are no better than a "6" who seriously believe they're hot stuff.

      You really are a deplorable little code monkey.

      This is why our grandmothers' generation often cannot believe what they're hearing when they drill down into what a lot of "harassment" is. It's because they're thinking "honey, you ain't the prettiest girl in the office, you keep acting like a stuck up bitch to guys who are an even match for you and you're liable to end up a cat herder in your 50s."

      If that's what your grandmother is like then I guess it goes a long way in explaining how you turned out how you did.
      I hope you realise how ironic it is that you're complaining about being rejected by girls that you think you're too good for.

    3. Re:A lot of the problem with "harassment" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If that's what your grandmother is like then I guess it goes a long way in explaining how you turned out how you did.

      The good thing about your guesswork is that you can guess whatever you like for any reason. I guess you're a 4.

    4. Re:A lot of the problem with "harassment" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You, sir, are the problem.

    5. Re:A lot of the problem with "harassment" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This provides insight to your poor relationships with women. It does little to explain sexual harassment.

    6. Re:A lot of the problem with "harassment" by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      'I've never had a ten, but I've had five twos.' Carlin

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    7. Re:A lot of the problem with "harassment" by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Is that so many young women today are utterly deluded about their attractiveness. I have seen plenty of women who, all made up and ready for a night on the town, are no better than a "6" who seriously believe they're hot stuff. Like really believe they're hawwwwt and normal men should count themselves lucky to even buy them coffee.

      Soz, bruv, but you don't have a right to their time just coz you think they're uggos.

      You know you're almost certainly not as good as hiding your thoughts as you think and they can almost certainly feel the waves of entitled hatred flowing off you.

      It's really bad with the college-educated set who also often scoff at the idea of blue collar men, even if they make more money than the average man in their social circle.

      A hot 6 uggo from college once turned me down and they're all so awful and ugly wat with being only 6s and WHY WON'T THEY HAVE SEX WITH ME????

      . It's because they're thinking "honey, you ain't the prettiest girl in the office, you keep acting like a stuck up bitch to guys who are an even match for you and you're liable to end up a cat herder in your 50s."

      Welp, they can take that attitude ans spin on it as far as I'm concerned!

      Thankfully many women now have better career options than "housewife" so they don't have to get a guy just to not be skint.

      Sucks for you because now you have to actually offer something that will enrich the life of a prospective date. Here's a free clue: complaining about 6s is not it.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  13. And when the wolf whistling stops by DeplorableCodeMonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The feminists find they miss it because it means men either don't find them attractive anymore or are at least just flat out ignoring them.

    I have to admit I don't see the connection with this one... Yeah, having people delude themselves and acting like assholes isn't harassment, it's being an asshole.

    A normal man who flirts with a normal woman isn't being an asshole, even if he doesn't immediately stop. Plenty of women who end up in happy LTRs will laugh and say "his persistence is what got me" or something to that effect. Women usually don't respect men who obediently go away the moment she says "not interested."

    Granted, there may be a cultural difference here. I'm a southerner working in a big metropolitan region in the south. I have never seen ANY of the sort of in-your-face behavior in our offices that one would believe is par for the course on the West Coast. So my assumption is normal flirting and push-pull, not "hey babe, wanna fuck in the bathroom?" to a female colleague.

    1. Re:And when the wolf whistling stops by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Can't say I've seen much of it myself, but I imagine most inappropriate behavior would happen when there's nobody else around. I mean if you're engaging in behavior most people would find objectionable it's pretty stupid to do it in front of witnesses. As for flirting and persistence most people have a pretty good idea what's acceptable at any stage of a courting process. Like, you don't start by grabbing her tits and ass or pulling your dick out. If she doesn't fancy you keep trying, but if you're clearly being rejected then stop.

      Most of the stories I read either start out bad or they sound like "when in trouble, double" like if she's refusing your initial advances, try even harder. And I don't mean like serenades, candy and flowers harder but like start grabbing her and implying that she's the one provoking it or secretly likes it or wants it or is playing hard to get or that she will enjoy it. That's not persistence, that's ignoring the facts and replacing them with your fantasy that she's actually into you. Basically the light version of a stalker.

      I don't think work should be a totally sterile environment where all non-professional activity should be on Tinder. At the same time, I feel work should be a place you can go to do a job and nothing more. Which IMHO makes it the wrong place for persistence because you can't tell your boss or coworkers to really go away or walk away without losing your job. That can make sexual remarks and advances something you endure, whereas at a bar you'd tell the guy trying for the second or third time to get lost or walk out on him.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:And when the wolf whistling stops by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Pro tip: Basing your argument on a quote from Breitbart marks you as a right-wing idiot not worth taking seriously. Particularly when you're maligning a group that Breitbart maligns.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  14. Who kmnew nerds were desperate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go figure. Probably would have helped if they had any social skills or tact.

  15. Just wanted substantiation on a claim by wisebabo · · Score: 2

    Please note, I fully support just about everything that Ms. Hicks says in her article, I invite you to click on the link provided and see more details. However there is one claim that she makes (in the original article) that I wish was substantiated:

    "The British computing industry, both governmental and private sector, hemorrhaged talent, she says—and essentially lost its lead in tech because of it."

    I'm sure the British computing industry DID hemorrhage talent because of this pervasive bigotry (like against gays, R.I.P. Alan Turing) but did it "lose its lead" because of it? Doesn't that imply that conditions were better in other, competing countries? I'm sure they were in some, I've heard that the Soviet Union valued women much more equally than the West; however I'm assuming she's referring to the U.S. Were conditions in America that much better? (Maybe they were, I didn't see the movie "Hidden Figures"; how did that portray Minority(!) women doing high level STEM work? Was it accurate?)

    As far as I'm concerned women make excellent programmers, the top coder in our company that has exceptional talent (numerous winners of national mathematics/programming awards) is a woman. To that end, we've actually designed the facility to make sexual harassment more difficult (like glass doors to all non-rest rooms so that nobody thinks they can make a move on someone without possibly being seen).

    1. Re:Just wanted substantiation on a claim by stephanruby · · Score: 0

      To that end, we've actually designed the facility to make sexual harassment more difficult (like glass doors to all non-rest rooms so that nobody thinks they can make a move on someone without possibly being seen).

      You mean I can stare at my female co-workers all day from the comfort of my own desk? And there is no way for them to use blinds or curtains to block my view? That sounds neat. Where do I sign up?

    2. Re:Just wanted substantiation on a claim by kenh · · Score: 0

      I'm sure the British computing industry DID hemorrhage talent because of this pervasive bigotry (like against gays, R.I.P. Alan Turing)

      Turing admitted to violating british laws, not bigotry against his orientation in the workplace.

      Stop trying to bend history to support your modern views.

      --
      Ken
    3. Re:Just wanted substantiation on a claim by drewlake2000 · · Score: 1

      It was bigotry against his orientation in society. His existence was breaking the law.

  16. I've no interest in the article by Baron_Yam · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...when the summary adequately communicates the size of the chip on the author's shoulders.

    I don't doubt women still get sexually harassed, or that it was more common and accepted in the past. I ALSO don't doubt this 'historian' is so biased she sees sexual abuse in men saying 'good morning' to her and has no sense of humor at all.

    When I talk about why I have a problem with feminists because people like this represent the movement (never mind that the movement itself is sexist because it's only interested in women - give me egalitarianism any day), THIS is the kind of person who is the velvet glove over the iron fist of the man-hating feminists.

    Oddly enough, as a man, I have a huge issue with people who assume I'm a woman-abusing monster because I have a penis.

    1. Re:I've no interest in the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sure. I don't like being under that kind of suspicion either. But the fault isn't with most women. It is with what most women in STEM have had to experience. Like my daughter being in not just one, but several computer science classes with packs of "bros" being openly racist and mysoginistic and egging each other on. It may not be the same everywhere. Yet I know now that I was fairly naive and optimistic about this being a thing of the past, until I found out what my daughter had to put up with.

    2. Re:I've no interest in the article by kenh · · Score: 0

      Holding the door for a woman is declaring them too weak to do it themselves! Harassment!

      --
      Ken
    3. Re:I've no interest in the article by malkavian · · Score: 1

      And my nieces have none of that.. One is up to her PhD now, and has had to have lots of computing classes to do that. 2 have their masters degrees (one maths, one biology), and the youngest has a firm interest in computing and enjoys spending time with the guys in her class.. None of that behaviour.. Yes, it can occur. No, it's not endemic to the subject.

    4. Re:I've no interest in the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure. I don't like being under that kind of suspicion either. But the fault isn't with most women. It is with what most women in STEM have had to experience. Like my daughter being in not just one, but several computer science classes with packs of "bros" being openly racist and mysoginistic and egging each other on. It may not be the same everywhere. Yet I know now that I was fairly naive and optimistic about this being a thing of the past, until I found out what my daughter had to put up with.

      Yes, as a young man in physical science/tech in the '80s, I assumed the problems had been fixed years earlier. But, since there were hardly any women, it was impossible to tell. Only now, with more women entering these fields, is the scale of the problem becoming apparent. And while the problem is probably down to a minority of men, the harmful ones present a huge problem and the rest of us must not turn a blind eye to it or deny it.

    5. Re:I've no interest in the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holding the door for a woman is declaring them too weak to do it themselves! Harassment!

      BS; I hold doors for people regardless of their gender and I appreciate it when people do it for me. I've yet to meet anyone who would take it as an insult.

    6. Re:I've no interest in the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the movement itself is sexist because it's only interested in women

      On this point: two days ago, at an office Christmas party, my boss's boss grabbed me by the wrist and tried to drag me onto the dance floor. I pulled myself loose, and he grabbed me by the upper arm and tried to do the same again. I pulled myself loose again - which took some effort - and told him, politely, that I didn't want to dance. A minute later, I was by the wall, reading a poster - and, from outside my peripheral vision, he grabbed me by the arm again, and I had to pull myself away.

      Of course, I was quite uncomfortable with all this, but you know what? I'm an adult: I can handle that. What really grinds my gears is the double standard. There is no chance - not a chance in hell - that he, or anyone in the office, would have acted that way toward a woman at this party. And yet we have ardent feminists - of which he himself is one - going on about how terrible it is that such things (supposedly) happen to women, without a word about them happening to men.

  17. Look at what sells, how women are portrayed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing is wrong with self confidence. Of course if they're constantly interjecting and broadcasting this that's a different story...

    But anyway it seems shallow if the self confidence they get comes from copying the terrible role models they have on TV and ads on the internet, as well as online catalogs, which is probably where all the makeup and clothes ideas come from.

    That and it's hard for a woman to buy clothes that are properly cut and don't have a deep V neck or ride up on the stomach, or lately those ridiculous pleats in the middle of the chest that make it look like the shirt is tight. Even in games, women like that are heavily featured. Games like Skyrim don't feature fat people, Lara Croft manages to be shaved and groomed even though deep in the jungle, everyone in Uncharted is a love interest, the women of Overwatch are all made to be attractive, and anime is a huge offender there too.

    Unfortunately TV shows and clothes designers are all contributing to this mentality.

  18. The shortest, most accurate response to this: by chapstercni · · Score: 1

    *yawn

  19. Accusations without evidence... by Karmashock · · Score: 0

    ... Nearly all of it is merely an accusation. Someone complains... someone says X or Y...

    Tell you what, you're all pedophile alien vampires from the wizard dimension.

    Listen and believe.

    Here someone will say "but bad things can happen if we require evidence before burning people at the stake."

    Which is why its a good thing we caught your pedophile alien vampire ass from the wizard dimention... you know... before you got up to something freaky.

    Whilst bad things can happen if you don't just burn anyone that a finger is pointed at, a society where "that" constitutes grounds for destruction is a society where people are going to have to find elaborate ways to defend themselves from social predators that exploit that power to extort people.

    What is more, the most socially sophisticated people will use this power to dominate the less socially sophisticated. There will be less freedom, less fairness, less regard for the weak... it will be increasingly backstabby and ruthless.

    And that's okay.

    What we saw from Al Franken the other day was the perfect summation of what is going on here.

    Franken says "all women must be listened to."

    Franken says "all the women that said I did bad things are liars or are confused."

    Franken says "It is silly that I be removed from the Senate on this basis"

    Franken says "It is absurd that that Pedophile in Alabama be allowed to stay and the sexual predator in the white house be allowed to stay."

    See... its a double edged sword that some people are too dumb to understand cuts both ways. Some people in our society are trying to wield this weapon. And it is ripping them apart. What they want is a double standard. Where they can use this weapon to annihilate anyone simply by making an accusation without having it blow back upon themselves.

    They will accomplish nothing. They will sacrifice to the flame one after the other in the foolish belief that eventually they'll be able to land a telling blow upon some ideological enemy that will be worth the sacrifice.

    Sadly, they don't understand that it is a weapon that only effects those that believe in it. If their own belief were more cynical they could cow some of their opposition into submission with it at an economical rate. But if they believe in it and their opposition does things like "ask for evidence"... then the progressives cut themselves up trying to use a weapon that they don't understand.

    What is more, and all the more tragically... even IF they were able to totally annihilate their opposition with this weapon... it would destroy the rest of society if only because it would not stop.

    This is how witch trials work. You make an accusation that you saw someone dancing around the fires summoning demons as a witch... and then in the morning light... your little church group goes over there to hang the person by the neck until dead.

    Once you've stripped out all the incidents that are hearsay... what is left?

    Some will disagree... That is okay... the flames dance for us all and they don't care which of us gets hip checked into the blaze. What higher justice than to be burned in the flame of your own kindling?

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:Accusations without evidence... by kenh · · Score: 1

      Democrats are trying to validate the concept of "resignation after accusation" and denying "innocent until proven guilty" in hopes of finally finding a way to remove Trump from office.

      The basic argument is going to be "We kicked out all the democrats without proof, why won't you kick the president out without proof?"

      --
      Ken
  20. More Russian fake news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wish we could block all this fake news

  21. I think it is sad... by Sla$hPot · · Score: 0

    ..that whoman have to complain all the time.
    They have the right to do what ever they like.
    Complaining is just one thing.
    But it seems to take up an awful lot of time and space.
    Why?

  22. Just shows... by BlytheBowman · · Score: 1

    That "Brogrammer" culture goes back to when programming was usually done with pen and paper and then punched onto cards to be submitted as part of a batch job to be fed into a room-sized mainframe computer." This is about as much news as the sun rising in the morning,

    1. Re:Just shows... by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      I'm in Canada. The sun doesn't rise in the morning. It rises at 15:38 and sets at 16:41.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
  23. lol, quoting Breitbart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Can't believe this was modded up. I guess nerds are really assholes through and through.

    1. Re:lol, quoting Breitbart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      /. is infested with alt-right whiney boy-men who hate women. I've been here a *long* time (stopped posting logged in due to stalker types several years ago). Every year it gets worse, if it wasn't for a few occasional quality technical threads I'd give up.

  24. women among first computer programmers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some human computers were retread as computer programmers, prettymuch as depicted innthe Hidden Figures movie. Non-blacks too.

  25. The good news? by boudie2 · · Score: 1

    Most areas have friendly neighborhood prostitutes who you can harass for very reasonable rates, perhaps $25 to $150. The more things change the more they stay the same.

  26. Stop harassing me! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I haven't harassed a woman in my life, but you keep talking about my profession like it's a cesspool of harassment, which is not true. You're incessantly damaging my well-being and reputation. Stop it!

  27. Guess you didn't rtfa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    None of those examples are just attempts to connect

    1. Re: Guess you didn't rtfa by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      And none of these come even close to being sexual harassment.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  28. Re:sexual harassment is as old as humanity by arth1 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    We used to have established societal expectations that helped to minimize the suffering of the weaker members.

    Where the societal expectation was that the most powerful men would have almost all the women, and where most men's options were limited to prostitutes, rape or taking the shilling to increase the opportunity for either.

  29. Re:No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A politician "said so", so it must be true, right?! I mean, everything he says is a lie if it looks like it puts him in a good light, but if it puts him in a negative view, it must be true!

  30. Grace Hopper by JBMcB · · Score: 2

    Grace Hopper *was* a developer. Did amazing work. Wrote one of the first compilers. Remington Rand made her director of programming languages for the UNIVAC project. She made rank of Captain in the Navy, then honorary rank of Commodore (then Rear Admiral.) They named a ship after her.

    But nobody seems to talk about her that much these days. Weird.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    1. Re:Grace Hopper by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      But nobody seems to talk about her that much these days. Weird.

      I don't think it's weird at all. There have been thousands of pioneers in the field, and 99.9% of them are forgotten.

    2. Re:Grace Hopper by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Nobody talks much about Dijkstra either, or even people like Von Neumann.

    3. Re:Grace Hopper by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      WTF are you talking about?

      The only three 'computer pioneers' _ever_ mentioned in popular media are Grace Hopper, Ada Lovelace and Alan Turing.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:Grace Hopper by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. And in the case of Ada, it is rather questionable whether she should be in this line-up. It seems ignoring quite a bit of historical evidence is needed to make that work.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  31. Transgender? by PPH · · Score: 1

    when humans were in the loop, petitions to change gender on national insurance cards generally went through, but when the computer came in, the system was "specifically designed to no longer accommodate them

    I'm going to have to call BS on this one. Back in the days before automation, a request to change gender (particularly in Britain) would get you a trip to the local police department, much like Alan Turing. Once computers were brought in, the lack of a change process (without extraordinary circumstances) just carried forward from manual methods of recordkeeping.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Transgender? by kenh · · Score: 1

      That's not quite the context of Alan Turing's dilemma, he admitted to engaging in what were at the time illegal activities. I know of no case of anyone going to prison because they asked someone to change an entry on a piece of paper - if anyone was going to be punished for such a "crime" it would be the person that changed the gender, not the person asking for the change.

      Asking for something isn't a crime, how you ask may be.

      --
      Ken
    2. Re:Transgender? by PPH · · Score: 1

      because they asked someone to change an entry on a piece of paper

      If it was a change to correct a clerical error, no problem. But if it was as a result of someone having their todger removed, there would have been consequences. Both for the person requesting the change as well as the person performing the surgery. Likewise, some guy slipping into a skirt and requesting a records change (sans surgery) would have raised an alarm.

      Asking for something isn't a crime,

      No, its not. But back in those days, it could get you institutionalized.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  32. Forgotten by JBMcB · · Score: 1

    But she wasn't forgotten. There was a 60 minutes piece about her in the 1980's. Back when people in the computer industry didn't often make the news. Reagan making her Commodore made the news and the papers. Everyone in the industry knew her, and a lot of people outside of the industry did, too.

    But nowadays when people mention women in the computer industry they talk about Ada Lovelace... and that's pretty much it.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    1. Re:Forgotten by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      But she wasn't forgotten. There was a 60 minutes piece about her in the 1980's

      Well, then she got more attention than most of the other pioneers.

      when people mention women in the computer industry they talk about Ada Lovelace... and that's pretty much it.

      And how many men can they name, besides Alan Turing ?

    2. Re:Forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She was on Late Night with David Letterman fer chrissakes! If that's not mainstream media, what is?

  33. Here's the first-ever sexual harassment quote by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

    Hello, there. Want to see my bit?

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
    1. Re:Here's the first-ever sexual harassment quote by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Well, it is the size of a 1 or 0.

    2. Re:Here's the first-ever sexual harassment quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I heard you know C++. Come on back to my desk, and I'll show you my member functions!"

  34. Good one by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

    Then you woke up.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
  35. only hire white men by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and your problems are solved.

  36. Perhaps more dialog is needed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Madam, may I kiss you forcibly?

    Do you need a hug?

    Please advise me if you are ever in need of sexual assault.

    Captcha: undress

  37. You need this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://www.aspergerstestsite.... Where do you fall on the spectrum?

  38. Chris Rock once said by Thundercat007 · · Score: 1

    Sexual harassment is basically an ugly guy trying to get some. If it were her crush, she'd see him as taking the lead

    1. Re:Chris Rock once said by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Sexual harassment is basically an ugly guy trying to get some. If it were her crush, she'd see him as taking the lead

      This explains why men in tech have such problems with sexual harassment.

      Being ugly does not excuse mistreating women. Knock it off.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Chris Rock once said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, so if an attractive man harasses a woman, it's ok because he's attractive?

      You finally went off the deep end, Ratzo.

    3. Re:Chris Rock once said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Being ugly does not excuse mistreating women. Knock it off.

      You miss the point: in many women's eyes, a man being attractive *does* excuse his mistreatment of women.

  39. In which world? by ruddk · · Score: 1

    At work, most of the project managers, team leaders, service delivery managers and what else, are women.The people they are managing are all men.
    A lot of things were different 60 years ago.

  40. Criminalizing flirting by DeplorableCodeMonkey · · Score: 1

    Can't say I've seen much of it myself, but I imagine most inappropriate behavior would happen when there's nobody else around. I mean if you're engaging in behavior most people would find objectionable it's pretty stupid to do it in front of witnesses. As for flirting and persistence most people have a pretty good idea what's acceptable at any stage of a courting process. Like, you don't start by grabbing her tits and ass or pulling your dick out. If she doesn't fancy you keep trying, but if you're clearly being rejected then stop.

    Again, maybe it's a cultural thing, but a lot of the boorish behavior making the news is just not something you hear about in "fly over country" and the south in the workplace. Where I live, you whip your dick out in front of a colleague you've got a greater than 90% chance of getting fired with cause the moment she utters the words "he showed me his dick." Management won't even ask if consent was involved; whip your dick out and it's security has you by the arm, you're getting a gentle push toward your car. If you just grabbed your colleague's boobs, it'd probably involve asking "do you want us to call the police too?"

    Fact is, Weinstein and Lauer would probably be under criminal investigation in most of the deep south. The shit these men pulled on women would not fly before corporate counsel or a court of law around here.

  41. Short-term career by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Women dominated computer programming in its early days because the field wasn't seen as a career, just a something someone could do...for only a short period of time. Computer jobs had no room for advancement, so having women 'retire' in their 20s was not seen as a bad thing.

    The field is still this way. Agism is rampant and fingers often wear out. The "proper" goal is to somehow slip into management.

  42. This needs to stop. by DMJC · · Score: 0

    I work in ICT, I'm male, 32 years old. My boss is ~65 years old and is a sexist pig. It's pretty fucking simple. I have an older sister. I'd hate for her to be treated the way people in my company treat women. It's not ok, and it's not just "boys being boys". We're adults, not fucking 13 year olds. None of our corporate clients would tolerate the shit that goes on in our office. There needs to be a cultural shift and it needs to hurry up.

    1. Re:This needs to stop. by kenh · · Score: 1

      And yet you stay in that job... Interesting.

      --
      Ken
    2. Re:This needs to stop. by iggymanz · · Score: 0

      because he's another ball-less whiner

  43. Von Neumann by JBMcB · · Score: 1

    Von Neumann has an early computer architecture named after him. Everyone who takes a computer architecture class knows who he is. One of my professors brought up the "Goto Considered Harmful" paper as well.

    In the general populace, not so much, but the article in question is talking about the computer industry specifically.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
  44. Don't be stupid... by kenh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the system was "specifically designed to no longer accommodate them, instead, to literally cause an error code to kick out of the processing chain any account of a 'known transsexual.'

    Seriously? The system wasn't "specifically designed" to "cause an error code" - it was programmed to process male or female, nothing more than that. The "human" system let the worker take an eraser and change an "F" to an "M" under gender as the person requested.

    The system was designed to accommodate an "F" or "M" in the gender position, it's no more nefarious than that. That a computer system is now designed to accommodate any Unicode character for gender doesn't mean it "supports" transgender rights.

    This is like arguing that older COBOL programs were designed assuming the world would end before the year 2000, so they didn't allow for "century" in date fields, optiong instead for only a two-digit number to represent year.

    --
    Ken
  45. Fuck women by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't give a flying fuck about women in tech anymore. Everything makes women feel sexually harassed these days. One day I'll be thrown in jail for saying hi to them when they didn't ask for it.

    If they're too weak for the environment, then they better ship the fuck out. Better yet, segregate men and women in the work place, this shit isn't working out.

  46. Tired of political correctness and agendas by BlueCoder · · Score: 1

    Because of all this social agenda s*** I have to redefine words in my mind until I have evidence to the contrary.

    Sexual Harassment = A man that had the balls to make a pass at a woman or ask to go out on a date.

    Sexual Offender = Someone that got drunk and pissed on a tree.

    Amber Alert = A disgruntled man that temporarily takes his own child because of a child custody case/situation.

    As to the article/subject itself... men and women are different.(Why is that so hard to believe?) They have different but overlapping bell curves for aggressiveness. Compound that by a subject matter that attracts solitary people that generally have slight to moderate autistic anti-social issues.

    1. Re:Tired of political correctness and agendas by malkavian · · Score: 1

      Sexual offender can be almost nothing.. Friend of mine managed to get himself on the sex offenders register.
      When he was 20, he met a pretty gal at a nightclub.. She latched on to him, and they ended up going out.. After a while, she started staying over at his place at weekends, and things were good.. She looked young and fresh faced, so always got ID'd, but always pulled out her ID and all was good..
      Then eventually he got to meet her folks, and over dinner he said approximately that he knew where she got the cooking skills from now, because she made fantastic breakfasts for him when she stopped over.
      That's when conversation pretty much stopped.. He got worried about having made a social faut pas, and left pretty early.
      Next day, the police came round to his place and arrested him for rape. Turns out the gal was 15, with false id (age of consent is 16 in UK), and her nights out she was saying she was spending at friends houses studying.
      When the court case came around, he was told that ignorance of her age was no defence, and the fact she'd been lying to him and telling him she was 18 and working was no defence.
      End result, he did time, and was put on the sex offenders register. He's a nice chap, and thoroughly decent.. Not the sharpest, but damn honourable..
      And thoroughly screwed because a gal lied to him. She had no consequence apart from her folks scolding her for lying about being at her friends' houses.

  47. Here is the bottom line by gerald.edward.butler · · Score: 0

    If you support Trump and Moore you are a worthless piece of shit! I will make it my mission in life to see you removed from the gene pool. You are anti-American, sleeze-bag. On the other hand, if you think that women are "forced" out of Tech, you are a fucking liar. Get a fucking grip.

    1. Re:Here is the bottom line by sproketboy · · Score: 1

      Roger Moore? What did he do that's so bad? Also, fuck you fascist.

  48. the key word is survived by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You will not survive oppression of an low woman like hilly. Unlike alpha males they kniw no biological bounds to the conflict.

  49. no gray zone by Goldsmith · · Score: 0

    There is no gray zone in sexual harassment. If you think you're in a gray zone, you've fucked up already. This has been covered in sexual harassment training for at least a generation now. Let's actually try to get it right this time.

    There is one way, and only one way to act at work, and that is professional. If you're being "friendly" with co-workers, you're doing this wrong. (Customer oriented "friendliness" is good... do we need to go over why there's a difference?)

    If you're a man, you are seen as powerful whether you are or not. Figure your shit out, and get more friends outside of work if you need to. If you're a woman, it's a good idea to start thinking along these lines. If men are going to adopt stricter professionalism, acting differently will get you labeled "unprofessional."

    In general, this is not going to make advancement easier for women. There are different social rules being emphasized, and this is going to bias men towards trusting other men. There's a new value signalling language being developed right now. It's being developed by the people in power, and if you don't learn it fast, you're not going to be joining them.

    If you're hearing things like "people need to fit into the company culture," know that that is a dog-whistle for lawyers to come sue your company. That is the old language. This is a big change and quickly moving. "Company culture" is a real thing, and is actually important to the success of a business. It is also understood to be the excuse in the last 15 years for a lot of behavior that isn't actually legal. I don't know what's going to replace "culture" as the watchword for whether work groups are well run, but I suspect it's going to be something around professionalism.

    1. Re:no gray zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no gray zone in sexual harassment.

      Oh yes there is, in that the same behavior a woman will tolerate from a man she finds attractive, she will scream bloody murder if it's from a man she finds 'creepy.'

      The whole topic is permeated with subjectivity. Ask any woman if she's ever been sexually harassed by an attractive man, the answer's always no.

    2. Re:no gray zone by ThurstonMoore · · Score: 1

      Things are always grey. One of the problems with society now is that everyone sees everything in black and white. Only the sith deal in absolutes.

    3. Re:no gray zone by malkavian · · Score: 1

      That's just so much rubbish. Companies are where groups of _people_ meet and do an activity. You don't leave your humanity at the door in the name of 'being professional'.
      The sexual harrassment training is a tick box for companies so they don't get sued as an entity when someone complains. What the most successful companies have is enough flexibility that people can be people, while having recourse so that the real problematic people can be deal with appropriately.
      The big problem with "grey area" is that it's now being used to have punishments given out, depending on someone's whim _after the fact_. So if a guy approaches the woman, and she decides she likes him and decides to be receptive, happy days. If she decides she really doesn't like him, she can get to call sexual harrassment by the regulations.. And it's always for the protection of women, not men..
      I've asked female friends what they'd think of a hypothetical situation where a man was to get into the bed of a woman who wasn't interested in her and proceed to grope her.. Every single one said "He should go to court and be charged with sexual assault". Now I've had a couple of women do exactly that to me, and I've asked them what they thought of that, and every single one said "You must have thought it was a good night.". No, I didn't.. It was awkward, embarrassing, and really made living around them hell. When I explained that, they still said, "well, it's different for you, your're a guy.. It's not that bad"..
      That's what really aggravates me.. Most of these vocal women want a world where they can do what they want without consequence, but they want to deny those freedoms to men, and by and large, the law supports that. Then they accuse men of entitlement syndromes?

    4. Re:no gray zone by gweihir · · Score: 1

      There always is a gray zone in human interaction, no exceptions. It is critically needed for calibration. Without it it becomes impossible to find out what is still acceptable without doing something unacceptable, no matter how careful you are.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  50. Easy solution that can be easily made complicated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just separate the genders. Give them their own part of the building so we can please focus on getting the job done. This is getting out of hand. I understand both points of view but at this point both sides need a timeout until there can be some kind of reasonable solution we can come to.

    It's almost 2018 and we're having these kinds of problems?!

  51. Just tech? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Sexual Harrassment in Movies is as old as the Studios.
    Sexual Harrassment in Politics is as old as the Government.
    Sexual Harrassment in Business is as old as Business.
    Sexual Harrassment in {Insert anything} is as old as {anything}.

    Basically, it's a demonstration that power corrupts, and often that corruption takes the form of sexual harrassment. Not just in Tech, but can occur in any environment.

  52. educate that deductive reasoning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We don't need a specious term called "sexual harassment" because we got objective rules against blackmail, extortion, rape, assault, etc. "sexual harassment" is an euphemism for dumb people like when you read in the obituary it says "died of natural causes" well they weren't dead before so obviously something unnatural happened. These type of idiots cannot accept an unknown variable and will literally lock up on the spot. Why is it that any crime perpetrated upon the opposite gender is always deemed "sexual harassment"?

  53. Re:No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're not the brightest guy on /., aren't you?

  54. do sjws conquer all media? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No women in office no sexual harasment.

  55. Historian Marie Hicks by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Hicks has also started looking at the bias baked into algorithms, specifically at when it first crossed from human to computer. The first example she turned up had "something to do with transgender people and the government's main pension computer."

    Historian Marie Hicks doesn't know the difference between a business rule and an algorithm.

    Could the reason be that she's a historian?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  56. Harassment by ThurstonMoore · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure why everyone is just focusing on sexual harassment and not harassment in general. Males and females alike have to endure harassment at the workplace all the time and that's what we need to work toward eliminating. In my experience the same guy that sexual harasses women at work acts like a douche bag to everyone he works with and harasses men too.

  57. hear hear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Also, any woman would interpret any transaction initiated by an unfamiliar man as an attempt to flirting. This includes business interactions as well.

  58. God I miss the 70s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I grew up too late to really experience the loose, carefree nightlife of the 70s, but even as a 12-year-old I got a sense of how liberated people were. They're so uptight now.

    Yes, harassment went on then too. But it wasn't the moral equivalent of rape, you just slapped somebody or chewed them out or shrugged it off.

    Guess what? I've been groped and pinched and kissed against my will. No harm done. People will make you feel bad in lots of ways, and that's what dumfounds me about these latest allegations.

    "Oh, a senator pinched my butt! It made me feel bad!" Yeah, you must be traumatized for life, snowflake. Grow up.

  59. It's as old as... by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

    the tech industry. Sexual harassment is actually as old as the human race, but this article narrowed the focus to "tech" jobs, so I guess by definition you can't go before the beginning of the tech industry.

  60. How should I store gender, as a wchar? by christoofar · · Score: 1

    As far as the transgender issues go I've yet to see a published ISO spec for what a gender field should look like.

    How many chars of storage should be devoted to it? Is there at least a unicode symbol to denote a non-binary agender anteater-kin? Or should the field be stored as a BLOB and always rendered as a memo field? In fact, I just typed "agender" into Firefox and it's not even in Firefox's dictionary. That's highly problematic.

    1. Re:How should I store gender, as a wchar? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Foreign key to a lookup table, same thing as anything else with an arbitrary number of discrete options.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  61. As Old As the Proterozoic Eon by Kludge · · Score: 1

    Sexual Harassment ... Is As Old As the Proterozoic Eon.
    Sex first developed a billion years ago, and since then, males have been giving females lots of attention, wanted or not.
    Ever watched a nature show on PBS? Ever notice that in every species the males pursue and badger the females? Why? Because it is in their DNA and has been for the last billion years.
    If you think humans, who have the same ancestors as those animals, are any different, you are deceiving yourself.

  62. Re:sexual harassment is as old as humanity by synp71 · · Score: 1

    Really? Where? Nowhere in Europe since Christianity took over has polygamy been tolerated. And even in the near east where it was permissible, the vast majority of men had one wife, with polygamy reserved for the very rich and limited to four women apiece. While some men in all society remain unmarried for a variety of reasons, nowhere has this been the norm.

  63. Re:sexual harassment is as old as humanity by arth1 · · Score: 1

    Nowhere in Europe since Christianity took over has polygamy been tolerated

    Adultery has, though. Mistresses have not been uncommon at all. The more powerful the man, the more accepted it has been. Not to mention droit de seigneur. Or bedwarmers. Or serial monogamy.
    Large parts of Europeans can trace their genes back to kings.

  64. A fatuous article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Sexual harassment in metallurgy is as old as the bronze age
    2. Sexual harassment in the building industry is as old as Uruk
    3. Sexual harassment in airline industry is as old as the airline industry
    4. Sexual harassment in the car industry is as old as the first women to drive cars
    5. Sexual harassment during war is as old as war itself
    6. Sexual harassment around an open fire is as old as the invention of fire

  65. This entire situation is founded in huge lies by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter if women are "sexually harassed" or not. It does not matter to anything important at all. If they can't stand up for themselves and function in their job against adversity, they need to stay in the house and exist in their traditional role. We don't need them to work. Men can do everything woman can do in the economy.

    Our society is becoming completely and totally unhinged because of all the double standards. Everyone is going insane. We do not need to adapt the workplace to women. Women need to adapt to the workplace. The weak must adapt to nature. Nature must not adapt to the weak.

    This is all a symptom of the rampant interventionism of the government in every aspect of life. The plutocrats are simply destabilizing every aspect of society they can access with government, education, and media so they can manipulate us into giving up our humanity and becoming worker drones.

    We need to destroy this system and start over or we are all going to be turned into insane brainless slaves who exist for purpose other than work. Humanity is being destroyed and you are letting it happen because "the poor women and minorities can't exist on their own strength in the 'white patriarchy'"

    FUCK the women and FUCK the minorities. If they can't play with the big boys then they can go back to the kitchen and the sandbox. We have no obligation to interrupt our productivity to let them participate. In fact we have an obligation to stop them from participating if they can't roll with the punches.
    We can't breed weakness into our society because some complete losers have hurt feelings. They should feel LUCKY to have nothing more than hurt feelings, because if nature has it's say they would be DEAD.

    --
    My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
  66. Re: sexual harassment is as old as humanity by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    In this day and age, that would quickly lead to somebody a half mile away from the King's motorcade with an army of explosive drones dropping out of the sky.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  67. marxist / feminist thumping by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

    This is just pre-canned marxist / feminist dogma.

    "It's all a matter of power, Hicks pointed out -- and women have never had their share of it,"

    It's all a matter of free wheeling, over-sprawled, flimsy generalizations.

    Why is harassment worse in IT for women? The author doesn't care. It's just thumping marxist / feminist POWER POWER POWER.

  68. Look it up by gerald.edward.butler · · Score: 1

    I think you don't know what the word fascist means.

    1. Re:Look it up by sproketboy · · Score: 1

      Look in the mirror