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Microsoft's Fall Creators Update Already on More Than Half of All Windows 10 PCs (betanews.com)

Wayne Williams, writing for BetaNews: Microsoft releases two big feature updates a year for Windows 10. 2017 saw the arrival of the Creators Update in April, followed by the Fall Creators Update in October. The Creators Update was a slow and at times problematic release. A quarter of Windows 10 users still didn't have it by the time its successor rolled out. Thankfully, Microsoft seems to have learned some important lessons, and the Fall Creators Update is being installed at a much faster rate. According to the latest figures from AdDuplex, a mere two months after it launched, the Fall Creators Update (1709) is already on more than half of the Windows 10 PCs in use -- 53.6 percent to be precise. That's up from 20.5 percent a mere month ago.

74 of 140 comments (clear)

  1. After the last one bricked tons of computers by ckatko · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think I'll wait and let everyone else take the brunt of the damage.

    Microsoft's new strategy: Crowdsourced bug testers!

    1. Re:After the last one bricked tons of computers by ckatko · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, and since every major update, Windows goes out of it's way to UNINSTALL CoreTemp and Win8Gadget (adds windows 7 gadgets back so I can have a CoreTemp gadget), and reset all my security and group policy settings... and Windows Classic Shell... I'm really not looking forward to having to reset all my manual settings.

      I've got clients where their custom IE settings that are required for business apps to run, get reset every creators update and brings the entire system down. Why even have manual settings if you're just going to nuke them? HOURS of paid tech support with the IE team and CRM team, and they couldn't even tell me why it was happening.

    2. Re:After the last one bricked tons of computers by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      and Windows Classic Shell...

      On Windows 8.x I was a hardcore Classic Shell user.

      On Windows 10 it just seems more trouble than it's worth. I still have it, but likely going to uninstall it soon.

    3. Re:After the last one bricked tons of computers by greenwow · · Score: 1

      None of our ~150 Windows 10 machines bricked, but they all took over a week to install the update while the computer was unusably slow. Microsoft cost us a lot of productivity and a couple of customers.

    4. Re:After the last one bricked tons of computers by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      I'm really not looking forward to having to reset all my manual settings.

      I installed a new win 10 machine, disabled the windows update service, unpinned all of the useless ugly abusive crap from my start page, installed iTunes to auto-download my podcasts (the main reason for this system in the first place now that my XP system won't download most of them.) Also installed Calibre for regular newspaper downloads. Left the VNC client connected (the system is headless.)

      A week later I noticed the pods had not updated for a couple of days. The VNC client complained the network connection had broken. I fire it back up and bingo! The new system was sitting at a "Welcome to the Fall Update" page and had not bothered to start the programs I had configured it to. It had reset the sharing so I could no longer access the pods remotely, and put everything back on the start page, including a bunch of new, useless crap. (Not just useless, but actively running and phoning home as active content on my start page, without my permission and despite being removed once.) Also Edge was back on the taskbar, plus some crap about "people" wanting to access my contacts so MS can find out who I know.

      Once I thanked Microsoft profusely for abusing my system and giving me a lot of new crap, the two things I wanted to run started up. And I once again disabled the update service, removed everything from the start page, removed Edge, but was only able to "remove from taskbar" the nosey "people" thing.

      I'm supposed to be able to downgrade a 10 system to 7, but of course without an OS disk and key I cannot. Daily I pray that NK tests it's next nuclear missile on the east side of Seattle. Sorry all the people I like in Seattle, you chose to live close to ground zero.

    5. Re:After the last one bricked tons of computers by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Disable People on the taskbar?

      I already did that, dumbass. Taking it off the taskbar is not the same as disabling it altogether, just as taking Edge off the taskbar does not remove it from the system. I know, it's complicated, isn't it?

  2. So Win 10 is on nearly half of Win 10 PC's? by OffTheLip · · Score: 2

    That is big news.

  3. Creation by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

    Ergo there must be a lot of creating going on

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  4. I couldn't disable it. by BlueCoder · · Score: 3, Informative

    I remember it telling me it was going to update. I spent a half hour trying to figure out where to disable it before turning to the web where I spent another wasted two hours before I just gave up. I feel very violated.

    1. Re:I couldn't disable it. by rogoshen1 · · Score: 2

      If you ever figure this out, please let the rest of know.

      Somewhere along the way MS lost the plot in regards to a user actually owning their computer, and therefore having the right to update it or not at their discretion.

      fuckers.

    2. Re:I couldn't disable it. by jasonharrop · · Score: 1

      To regain control of when my Win 10 laptops reboot, I virtualised them.

      They've been VMs running in VirtualBox (on KDE Neon) for 5 months now, and they seem very happy with things this way. Me too.

      In my VirtualBox settings, I've simply disabled their network adapters. Maybe I could've done that in the original Windows machines, but having a single machine is so much more convenient (and satisfying). Just make sure you don't run out of disk space on the partition containing those images!

    3. Re:I couldn't disable it. by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      a user ?
      an user?

      dude... read what you're suggesting aloud, tell me if it sounds right: (hint, user starts with a consonant sound, so it's "a")

      Also, women apparently don't own computers?

    4. Re:I couldn't disable it. by rastos1 · · Score: 1

      Just disable Windows Update service.

    5. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      "His" is correct, since the subject is singular and of unknown gender.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    6. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Why do you assume the user is a he? Their is a perfectly acceptable term.

    7. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      I don’t.

      Definition of their

      2 : his or her : his, her, its —used with an indefinite third person singular antecedent
      anyone in their senses —W. H. Auden

    8. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      ‘Their’ was already correct and didn’t need fixing.

    9. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Just disable Windows Update service.

      Been there, done that, got the Fall Update shoved down my throat anyway.

    10. Re:I couldn't disable it. by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      What happens if boot from something else and change the permissions on the windows update files?

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    11. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Desler · · Score: 1

      Singular 'they' has been used for centuries and is perfectly correct.

    12. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      'Their' was already correct and didnâ(TM)t need fixing.

      "Their" is plural. Unless every computer is owned by two or more people, "his" is the correct pronoun. "Their" is the half-assed attempt at political correctness, or is it "social correctness", that results from ignorance of one meaning of "his" as "gender unknown third person pronoun". Can't say "his" because ignorant people will attack you for being sexist, "hers" is completely incorrect, so let's use the incorrect "their" and show how socially correct but illiterate we are.

    13. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Desler · · Score: 1

      If you're going play the part of a a grammar Nazi at least be correct. Singular they has been used in English for numerous centuries.

    14. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Singular 'they' has been used for centuries and is perfectly correct.

      There is no singular "they", but there is a genderless, singular "he". The fact that some people choose to abuse the language by using the wrong pronoun doesn't mean it is suddenly the best choice for clear language.

    15. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      And if you don't trust Merriam Webster we can even go to the OED:

      1.1 Belonging to or associated with a person of unspecified sex.
      ‘she heard someone blow their nose loudly’

      Fail much?

    16. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2

      There is no singular "they",

      Poor troll is poor.

      This is an example of what is often referred to as ‘singular they’.

      The grammatical subject—every employee—is singular, as is the verb is expected, but the following pronoun, their, is plural. Hence the name. It happens when they, them, their, and themselves refer back to subjects that are grammatically singular:

      Is it grammatically correct?

      Despite objections, there is a trend to use ‘singular they’. In fact, it is historically long established. It goes back at least to the 16th century, and writers such as Shakespeare, Sidney, Byron, and Ruskin used it:

      https://en.oxforddictionaries....

      But I'm sure you know more than the Oxford English Dictionary, right?

    17. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      Documenting common usage is not documenting correct usage.

    18. Re: I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Slashcode is shit.

    19. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2

      There is no "suddenly" about it. As was pointed out above, Merriam-Webster (which is a pretty credible source when it comes to the meanings of words) lists examples going back as far as Shakespeare.

    20. Re:I couldn't disable it. by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      FFS! Learn something new every day...

      "Somewhere along the way MS lost the plot in regards to USERS actually owning their computerS, and therefore having the right to update or not at their discretion."

      Better?

    21. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      There is no "suddenly" about it.

      Exactly. It's been around in common usage longer than Modern English has even existed. Usages can be found dating back to the late 1400s during the period of Middle English.

    22. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Since "they" has the plural meaning, "he" is still the correct, clearer choice. No, I don't, and did not here.

    23. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      They has a singular meaning as well. Anyone who isn't just a fake Grammar Nazi would know this. It has been used a such since the Middle English period. Go back under your bridge, troll.

    24. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2

      Yes, I noticed you did that.

      Worst comeback ever.

      No, I'm sorry,

      Then why does your English not look like this:

      Forrrihht anan se time comm
          att ure Drihhtin wollde
      ben borenn i iss middellærd
          forr all mannkinne nede
      he chæs himm sone kinnessmenn
          all swillke summ he wollde
      and whær he wollde borenn ben
          he chæs all att hiss wille.

      Oh right, that's because English evolves and changes and is defined by common usage.

      I haven't been alive that long, but I remember when "they" became the "socially correct" replacement for "he" in the late 70's or early 80's. That's hardly 500+ years. (Doest thee protest, thy anger is great!) Now even that abuse is not enough, we're getting "zee" and "zey" thrown into the mix. Apparently "they" doesn't mean what you think, since "they" just wasn't unsexist enough.

      I didn't realize that writers like Early of Chesterfield, John Ruskin and William Shakespeare were only from the 1970s and 80s. Oh did you not know that they used the singular they centuries ago?

    25. Re:I couldn't disable it. by MercTech · · Score: 1

      Because the male gendered designation is the generic. Yes, "man" is the generic case for all mankind. Isn't insisting otherwise making "women" generic and interchangeable? (Yes, I'm hitting a skewed meme for humor value.)

      --
      NRRPT/RCT
    26. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Yeah, William Shakespeare, a prominent user of the singular they in his writing, was well-known for his political correctness. *yawn*

    27. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      That should be the 4th Earl of Chesterfield.

    28. Re:I couldn't disable it. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      One of the reasons I paid extra for the Pro version was so I could schedule upgrades for my convenience. (I knew I couldn't postpone them indefinitely.) Therefore, I got up one day, turned my computer on, and found that it had rebooted (fortunately I never leave work unsaved) overnight, and insisted on not only leaving the machine unusable for some minutes but also inflicting an instructional app to tell me what they've done.

      They at least included one change I found useful: changing the screen colors at night. Of course, if I'd found that really useful, I would have already gotten a third-party fix for the problem.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    29. Re: I couldn't disable it. by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      You expect Unicode quotes to work on /. shitty's code? You must be new here.

      /sarcasm ASCII or bust.

      * U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK
      * U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK
      * U+201C LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK
      * U+201D RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK

      I mean its not like they had a decade or two to fix their code ... oh wait ...

      --
      Hey /. editors -- fix the crappy Unicode support already ...

    30. Re:I couldn't disable it. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      When you cannot prove your point, namecall.

    31. Re:I couldn't disable it. by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      Isn't that just fucking brilliant though? Charge a ~$200 premium for allowing something that was available in every single version going back to XP.

      if i wasn't a nerdy computer gamer, i'd just install mint.

    32. Re:I couldn't disable it. by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      If you ever figure this out, please let the rest of know.

      I'm pretty sure the solution you are looking for begins with the phrase: "Contact your domain's Active Directory administrator..."

    33. Re:I couldn't disable it. by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      windows 10 home.

    34. Re:I couldn't disable it. by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      windows 10 home.

      Sorry, pretty sure the (Microsoft supplied) solution you are looking for begins with the phrase "Have your IT Support upgrade your computer to Windows 10 Enterprise..."

    35. Re:I couldn't disable it. by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      Your nickname is a pretty good description of MS and how they're handling windows 10.

  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. Shit updates by rfengr · · Score: 1

    Seems most major windows 10 updates are pieces of shit that won’t install anyway, without manually flushing the update repository folder and stopping services.

  7. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  8. Is the NVME Bug Fixed by STRICQ · · Score: 1

    Have they fixed the NVME bug that prevents installation on certain machines?

    1. Re:Is the NVME Bug Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't use the Microsoft driver. I use the Samsung Nvme driver for my 950 and it works very well.

  9. Re:Idiotic by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    Scratch the surface even a teensy tiny bit and you find that every computing platform: Windows, MacOS, and Linux - they're all in a total state of disrepair.

    Yeah, it's almost as if writing a bug-free modern, general-use computer operating system wasn't trivial! I mean, it's just a glorified abacus FFS, right? Maybe MS should ask the Chinese for help...oh wait...

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  10. Fall Creator's Update by Dwedit · · Score: 1

    This update is actually a good one, it finally fixes the Diagonal Tearing Problem with Nvidia Optimus Laptops.

  11. How odd by quonset · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When you force people to update their systems, regardless if it destroys their configurations or mangles their programs, machines get the update.

    It's almost as if not giving people a choice whether to upgrade means they're going to get the update.

    1. Re:How odd by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You know, I've never had a surprise update from Apple. The iOS updates have nagged, but they've never just gone ahead and updated my phone. This is indeed an area where Microsoft has surpassed Apple.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  12. Strange Windows 10 behavior by freeze128 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Microsoft add/changes features too often in Windows 10. This has caused some really strange behavior on my Windows 10 machines. Some things it has done:

    - I have specifically set my lock screen background image to "image 1". Sometimes when I boot my machine, the lock screen background has been changed to "image 2". Often, another reboot sets it back to "image 1". What's the point in having a setting if the system doesn't always honor it?
    - When the Creator's Update was installed, I noticed that it looked like one of my desktop icons was missing. Upon further inspection, it just looked like some (but not all) of my desktop icons were moved around a little, and a gap left at the top.
    - I have never joined any of my home machines to a Windows domain or workgroup, but on some reboots, there is an icon on my desktop called HOMEGROUP. It cannot be moved or deleted. Only stopping the "Homegroup Provider" service causes the icon to vanish, and then it stays away until some other random time.

    1. Re:Strange Windows 10 behavior by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      On the reboot after I posted that, all my desktop icons were auto-arranged for me without my consent! I swear Microsoft is reading my posts and just fucking with me now.

  13. Re:Except for my Dell laptop... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    My ego is normal, not a malignant pulsing purple mass like yours.

    Says the bully who picks on retarded kids.

  14. Aptly named by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    The language nazi in me can stay quiet and not go into an "It's Autumn, idiots!" rant.

    Personally I'd have called it the "Crash Update", but Fall Update is close enough.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Aptly named by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      I thought at first it said "Fail Creators Update" and wondered how they could tell the difference.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:Aptly named by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      "It's Autumn, idiots!"

      Spring, even.

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  16. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  17. Who's AdDuplex and why should we trust them? by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

    Who's AdDuplex and why should we trust them?

    Looks like it's an online advertising company and by default those outfits aren't to be trusted unless the opposite is proven.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  18. Exciting by WaffleMonster · · Score: 3, Funny

    It must be wonderful to get a new version of Windows packed with great new features.

    When you have some time in your busy schedule waiting for updates to finish installing, interrupting boot loops, reinstalling software Microsoft doesn't want you to use, dodging regressions and restoring all of your settings (again) send me a postcard of all those amazing new features that makes Windows 10 so much better.

  19. Helpful tip for blocking all Windows updates by nctritech · · Score: 5, Informative

    Microsoft is shady as shit and despite disabling the Windows Update service on my Pro machines I find it re-enables and demanding restarts, even restarting in violation of the "no auto-restart with logged on user" group policy, so here's a solution to blocking Windows 10 updates that works.

    Go to regedit, find HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\services\wuauserv, export that key to a .reg file somewhere, open an admin command prompt and "net stop wuauserv" and then DELETE that key. This disables and deletes the entire Windows Update service from the system. If you want to update, import that .reg file you saved and update. "net stop wuauserv" and delete it again when finished (you don't even need it once the settings panel indicates it needs a restart, the post-update work is done by internal Windows components.)

    Make a .reg file with these contents as a companion to your "install wuauserv.reg" and call it "delete wuauserv.reg":

    Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

    [-HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\wuauserv]


    No, it's not a pretty solution and won't work for your mom and dad, but it keeps Microsoft from shooting update torpedoes up your computer's buttpipes.

    1. Re:Helpful tip for blocking all Windows updates by jimprdx · · Score: 1, Troll

      >> it's not a pretty solution

      It's not even a solution. Seriously, it's nearly 2018 and people are still suggesting disabling Windows Update as a viable solution to anything at all?! If your lack of trust or Microsoft is that deep, then how can you trust your operating system at all? Either use Windows and keep the damn thing updated and out of a botnet that will affect others, or switch to an alternative OS that you do trust.

      If you have the Pro version of Windows 10, you can trivially delay the installation of major updates for up to six months, which is plenty of time for MS to get the bugs ironed out. With Microsoft in general (and Windows 10 in particular), either you're in and constantly-updated, or you're left behind and unsecured. I can understand people not liking that, but that's the way Windows works these days, so forget bad pseudo-solutions and either sign up or log out and move to MacOS, Linux, BSD, Android...

    2. Re:Helpful tip for blocking all Windows updates by nctritech · · Score: 2

      Oh please, another update absolutist.

      Don't waste everyone's time with your "let it update or the AIDS will get you" line. With major yet rare exceptions such as WannaCry, nearly every single security update I've seen for Windows since the XP days has patched some theoretical obscure vulnerability that usually required the person to already be logged into an account on the machine to exploit or it was plugging holes in the Swiss cheese that I don't use called Internet Explorer. Unless the security issue is really big, it's better to force updates to happen when you make the choice to do it than to run the high risk of the unattended updates hosing the machine somehow. I just did three clean Windows 10 reinstalls so far TODAY because of massively bungled updates going wrong and destroying the OS. Save your theoretical security concerns for ignorant people who don't use their computers to get real work done.

      Perhaps you also missed the bit where I mentioned that Windows 10 Pro was ignoring the update group policy settings including the one that stops updating from restarting the computer automatically overnight. It is more important to me that my overnight 4K After Effects render completes than that I am "secure" a couple of days earlier than I care to be but have to start many hours worth of waiting over.

      Forced updates and reboots are not okay. If you don't like that, that's fine; I don't care if you're unhappy over how my computer is set up.

    3. Re:Helpful tip for blocking all Windows updates by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      people are still suggesting disabling Windows Update as a viable solution to anything at all?!

      It's a bad solution, but it's the only solution available.

      If your lack of trust or Microsoft is that deep, then how can you trust your operating system at all?

      You can't.

      or switch to an alternative OS that you do trust.

      I generally do, but unfortunately it's not possible in every circumstance.

      If you have the Pro version of Windows 10, you can trivially delay the installation of major updates for up to six months

      You can? My Windows installation begs to differ. Sure, you can tell it to, but it will ignore you.

      which is plenty of time for MS to get the bugs ironed out.

      What Microsoft considers to be a bug and what I consider to be a bug are very often different things.

      either you're in and constantly-updated, or you're left behind and unsecured.

      Which is a problem Microsoft made (intentionally) all by themselves by combining security updates with other sorts of updates. If the result of that is that people dodge security updates in order to avoid the other updates, the blame falls on Microsoft, not on the users.

    4. Re:Helpful tip for blocking all Windows updates by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Actually, this is the main reason I bought the Pro version. It didn't stop Microsoft from deciding my laptop needed to reboot on Microsoft's schedule, and wait until I actually wanted to use the thing to finish the update.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  20. Re:Suckers by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    come 2019 it will go to a subscription model. Pay up or they brick your computer...

    This doesn't sound so bad given current malware as a service model Microsoft has adopted for Windows 10.

  21. Re:Just saw a friend's laptop install this by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    I suspect it's the truth, based on my own experience.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  22. Re:Suckers by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

    come 2019 it will go to a subscription model. Pay up or they brick your computer...

    I am seven days away from Cisco bricking a gigabit switch I thought I bought but apparently only rented, because I am not going to pay a surprise maintenance fee to keep it working. "That's some nice PoE switch you've got there, t'd be a terrible thing if somethin' happened to it..." After a year of no mention of a maintenance fee, suddenly I get a "pay up or we turn it off" demand, every few days for the last two months.

    The maintenance fee is large enough that I can buy 8 Netgear switches that do the same thing. My Netgear switch can fail seven times over the next three years and I'll come out even, and Netgear has never threatened to brick something I bought from them because I won't pay them more.

    Proudly windows free for 5 years.

    In seven days or less I will be proudly Cisco free.

  23. So it disabled me. by DingerX · · Score: 1

    Nor could I, on my (Home Version) Asus ultrabook with wifi-only. It eventually forced the update. The update broke the wifi. "Let's cross this one off your list". It was never on MY LIST. HOW CAN YOU PRESUME TO KNOW WHAT'S ON MY LIST?

  24. Re:Just saw a friend's laptop install this by DingerX · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I've seen similar and worse. The updates only break a small percentage of PCs, but those PCs tend to be the most used, in terms of time and features. You remember when tech companies courted "Early Adopters?" Microsoft tries really hard to piss them off.

  25. Re:Suckers by WallyL · · Score: 1

    Please share what model, or is it pretty much any Cisco product?