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What Happens When Restaurants Go Cashless (usatoday.com)

There's a new trend starting: restaurants that won't accept cash. USA Today reports: Restaurant owners say ordering is faster from customers who slap down plastic instead of dollars, cutting a few seconds out of the process. But most of the benefits appear to accrue to the restaurants: less time taken counting bills, reduced pilferage, no armored-car fees or fear of stickups. It's a risky strategy. For starters, upscale Millennials -- among the most coveted of diners because of their youth and affluence -- prefer to pay in cash, according to Bankrate.com data. Also, more than a third of Americans between the ages of 18 and 37 do not have a credit card. For customers, patronizing restaurants that don't take cash means one less payment option when they need a quick meal during an all-too-short lunch hour. Plus, it raises questions about whether it discriminates against cardless teens and the poor... A committee in Chicago is weighing Alderman Edward Burke's proposed requirement that merchants accept cash. Massachusetts has had a Discrimination Against Cash Buyers rule on the books since 1978... Lana Swartz, co-editor of the book Paid: Tales of Dongles, Checks, and Other Money Stuff, says "One of the cornerstones of American capitalism is everyone's money is equal."
Meanwhile, the Associated Press reports: Many business owners would rather be cashless. Cash actually costs money -- banks charge fees for cash deposits and to handle coins... And counting and checking cash and preparing it for deposit takes up time a manager could spend with staff or customers... Millions of consumers use little or no cash. In a survey released last month by the financial services company Capital One, only 21 percent of 2,000 people questioned said cash was their most common way to pay for things. But going cashless isn't a slam-dunk. Some customers who want to use cash point to a statement on paper money: "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private." However, the Federal Reserve says on its website that private companies can make their own policies about cash unless there is a state law saying otherwise.
One Houston restauranteur changed his mind about going cashless, saying "You can't compete if you think you're going to create a whole set of rules and expect people to follow them." One Chicago restauranteur admits that "it has generated the most negative pushback of anything we've ever done," estimating revenue fell 2% just from angry cash customers who never returned.

But he persisted because his eight restaurants had experienced six burglaries, break-ins or armed robberies over the last eight years -- and got "dozens and dozens" of counterfeit bills from customers -- while by going cashless, he no longer has to pay for bank fees and armored car pickups.

471 comments

  1. Lower prices right? by svendsen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So the cashless restaurants are going to have lower prices and not charge like 12 bucks for a mixed drink?

    1. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, just like slashing the corporate tax rate added savings went directly to employees and will continue to go to employees.

    2. Re:Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new to this planet ;)

    3. Re:Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silly Swede. Bring your own bottle. That's how we do it in Oklahoma. We are poor in cash so cashless it has always been.

    4. Re:Lower prices right? by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      not as long as there are dummies willing to pay that much for a shot of cheap liquor and a cup of fruit juice

    5. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the point was to give extra money to employees, they would have lowered payroll or income taxes. The corporate tax cut is functioning exactly as intended. Most companies, when given a windfall, will immediately hire a bunch of employees and then figure out what they might do with them.

    6. Re:Lower prices right? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So the cashless restaurants are going to have lower prices

      Restaurants are in a very competitive business, with a high failure rate. So cost savings are very likely to be reflected in prices.

      not charge like 12 bucks for a mixed drink?

      More likely they will cut food prices instead. Drinks are less price sensitive. Especially after the first few rounds.

    7. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahahaha!!! Oh wait... were you being serious?

    8. Re:Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll offer them cash. If they refuse it, then I'll walk out.

      Cash is legal tender for all debts public and private. If they don't accept it, then that legally means the meal is on them.

    9. Re: Lower prices right? by ffejie · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Your wanting goods or services are not a debt public or private. They can refuse to sell you something if you don't pay with a credit card, or bitcoin, or acorns, or rare gemstones from some asteroid.

      The clause you're citing is if you owe someone money for something. For instance, if we have a contract that says you owe me $10 every time you post something insane on Slashdot. If you offer me 1000 pennies for this, and I say "no, I only take rare gemstones," then you can consider your debt satisfied in the eyes of the law. You offered legal currency, I refused.

      --
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    10. Re: Lower prices right? by fisted · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you pay upfront when eating in a restaurant?

    11. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the point was to give extra money to employees, they would have lowered payroll or income taxes.

      When the new tax rates went into effect, that is exactly what happened.

      But, full disclosure, I have no idea how to correlate what comes out of every paycheck with what I will owe Uncle Sam at the end of the year. So it's entirely possible that while my take-home increased, my actual taxes remained the same (or even increased).

    12. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you order food and prepay, before you receive meal a debt is not made, ecxept on the restaurants side. If you order food and are expected to pay after the meal, as in a sit down restaurant, a debt is made.

      Businesses can make policy which says they won't accept a boatload of pennies or dollar bills for large debts or large denomination bills for small debts, but if they will not accept currency for your debts, too bad for them.

    13. Re: Lower prices right? by ffejie · · Score: 1

      At the kind of restaurants (grab and go, counter service, fast food) that are described in this article, almost exclusively yes.

      These are the places where you order your food from a person at a register (or a kiosk!) and then pay. You might get a number or a buzzer, and a few minutes later, your food is ready. At the salad chains mentioned in the article, you watch them build your salad as you go down the line and then you pay at the very end right before they give it to you. They simply won't let you transact if you don't have a card.

      --
      Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
    14. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on the type of restaurant. Red Robin, no. Peri Peri, yes.

    15. Re: Lower prices right? by dougdonovan · · Score: 1

      use plastic...duh.

    16. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They serve me food, which incurs the debt, then I pay. It's not difficult to understand how that works.

    17. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there is your source of confusion. Maybe you eat at places like that, but I never would. If I'm going out to eat, then I want food that is better than what I can make at home, not some unhealthy, low class, fast food crap.

      So again if they refuse my cash, then I walk and there is nothing they can do about it.

    18. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can refuse to sell you something

      In which case he can still walk out. I know you thought you were making a point, but you really didn't.

    19. Re:Lower prices right? by uncqual · · Score: 4, Informative

      The key word is "debt". Barring a contract clause to the contrary, a debtor in the US must accept USD cash to satisfy a financial debt.

      However, when you buy a meal at a restaurant, you are not entering into a debtor:creditor relationship (of course assuming you didn't enter into some bizarre contract with the restaurateur indicating that they had loaned you the money for the meal and you, then, were to repay that loan before leaving the restaurant).

      As the Federal Reserve site explains, there is "no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services."

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    20. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you just go on a tangent unrelated to the subject in question. Are you also a sovereign citizen?

    21. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or do stock buybacks. Actually, just that.

    22. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Drinks stay up, apps stay up. Don't mess with the high margin goods.

    23. Re: Lower prices right? by driblio · · Score: 1

      No pay, no get food, no debt. Keep up.

    24. Re: Lower prices right? by driblio · · Score: 1

      Yes, you can walk out. But you won't get any food in the process. You have to pay first- no debt.

    25. Re: Lower prices right? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      These are the places where you order your food from a person at a register (or a kiosk!) and then pay. You might get a number or a buzzer, and a few minutes later, your food is ready. At the salad chains mentioned in the article, you watch them build your salad as you go down the line and then you pay at the very end right before they give it to you. They simply won't let you transact if you don't have a card.

      No, that goes away - because if you're turning down a customer at that point, it's literally a waste of money - the customer has wasted their time and effort and leaves angry. The restaurant now has a meal that is unwanted - and they cannot sell it. No customer further down the line would want something made for someone else (even if they wanted the same thing - if you could have it made in front of you versus already made sitting out for who knows how long, at the same price, which would you go for?). There is no option other than the restaurant to throw it out - they can't even donate it to the food bank. OK, maybe they can give it to the bum in the alleyway behind the store, but it's still a loss to the store.

      If you put the register up front at time of order, then customers may be mildly annoyed (depends on how long the line up is), but it also matters because now it's a voided transaction. Those things are recorded (sometimes people want to know - how much business was turned away).

        I have credit cards, but I never use them for food - using the simple principle of "if I can't see it when I pay the bill, it doesn't belong on the card". I should be able to take my bill, and physically see what was bought - tickets to an event (I have stubs), items, etc. Thus, consumables that will not last until bill day can't go on the credit card.

      All I would demand is a simple sign at the door if someone doesn't take cash. If I know going in you don't take cash, you and I could avoid wasting a lot of time. No, a sign by the register won't cut it, because if I have to wait in line, you better serve me.

    26. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Occasionally yes.

      During lunch hours some restaurants I frequent have a lunch buffet and in those restaurants you pay upfront.
      I don't really eat there but plenty of junk food joints like McDonalds also have you pay upfront.

      Now that I think about it those places that have a high throughput makes you pay upfront.
      When things calm down in the evening they switch over.
      I guess it makes sense in a way.
      During lunch time their income is limited by the number of tables. They want people to eat up and leave rather than sit around waiting for the check.
      Getting a spare table for the next customer will bring in more money than you loitering around.
      In the evening they often have a table or two over anyway so if they can keep you around longer and without having to go through any extra transaction for each item you eat there is a higher chance of you getting some dessert or an extra beer after you're done eating.

    27. Re: Lower prices right? by reanjr · · Score: 1

      You sound like someone who lives in rural America.

    28. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry son, but I live in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. Rural America doesn't have restaurants that are up to my standards. Unlike you, I'm not poor.

    29. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't eat at shitholes that have people pay up front, I only go to good restaurants. Maybe one day you'll earn enough money to be able to do the same, kid.

    30. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, I'll just go to a real restaurant instead of McDonalds. Only low class places have people pay up front.

    31. Re:Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, you don't understand how that works. They serve me food which places me in debt. They either accept the cash or they comp the meal.

    32. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Learn to read, you illiterate fuck. The entire article is about restaurants.

      It's no wonder you can only afford to eat at McDonalds.

    33. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      basement dweller on neetbux confirmed

      nobody boasts about being able to eat out like it's a life achievement

    34. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't eat at restaurants. Maybe one day you'll be able to afford proper house staff including a personal chef like a worthwhile person instead of sharing your servants with the rest of your scummy sub-class.

    35. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol no geez. they file a police report

    36. Re:Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense. When you eat at a restaurant under normal circumstances involved in business activity (ie not a private party put on by the restaurant) you are expected to pay for your meal. This expectation is a debt that is incurred when one receives or consumes a meal. If the Treasury department or the Federal Reserve wants to change the law which requires that all currency is to be regarded as legal tender "FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE", then they will have to change the law requiring this to be printed on it. Neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve has the authority to claim "no Federal Statute exists"..

    37. Re: Lower prices right? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      How do you get the food first when you never leave your parents basement?

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    38. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've finished eating and the waiter brings you a bill, that's a debt. If you offer enough cash (in a form that is legal tender, so a truckload of 1c coins obviously doesn't count) and they absolutely refuse to accept it as payment then they are legally freeing you of the debt, and you may leave without paying.

      Now if you pay upfront when you order instead of after receiving your meal then they can accept whatever they like.

    39. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact US dollarlydoos do have on then in printed "this note is legal tender for all debts public and private"

    40. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe we have found a sovereign citizen.

    41. Re: Lower prices right? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      What an impressively arrogant and ignorant post.

      Rural America has restaurants easily the match of the city ones. You're clearly just too full of yourself to try them. Your loss.

    42. Re: Lower prices right? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      That's going to be a comical police report. "The customer offered us legal tender and we refused to take his money. Please arrest him for failing to pay."

      The only uncertainty here is whether they'll be prosecuted for wasting police time or whether they'll be allowed to reach court and get done for wasting court time instead.

    43. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on the restaurant. Some, like McDonald's do require payment upfront.

    44. Re:Lower prices right? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      So the cashless restaurants are going to have lower prices and not charge like 12 bucks for a mixed drink?

      Or maybe they still charge 12 bucks for a mixed drink but pay their staff a living wage.

    45. Re:Lower prices right? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Cash is legal tender for all debts public and private

      The number of situations where you end up with what is classified as a debt in a typical lifetime can be normally counted on one hand. The bank *must* accept cash, the government must accept cash, and that's about where it ends.

    46. Re: Lower prices right? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Do you pay upfront when eating in a restaurant?

      Not paying up front doesn't mean you have debt. It just means you have a contractual obligation to pay for the service you received. Contracts do not automatically create debt. Debt with its proper finance definition (such as the one used by the federal reserve) is the amount of money borrowed from another party.

      You don't borrow money off someone when they serve you food but rather you enter into a stock standard buyer seller relationship.

      You're also not in debt in the supermarket while you're physically holding that box of cereal but haven't paid for it yet.

    47. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Harumph! Well, not at the restaurants I go too!
      Then those aren't real restaurants!
      shut the fuck up.

    48. Re: Lower prices right? by Xenocrates · · Score: 1

      I owe money for the meal. I offer cash. You say "No, I only take the finest paypal electrons." I can now consider it satisfied in the eyes of the law, as I offered legal currency, and you refused.

      I get your point, but your explanation needs work.

    49. Re:Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every bit as much as the gas stations that make you watch commercials have lower gas prices.

    50. Re: Lower prices right? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Is a 1000 pennies legal tender in the States? Here in Canada, pennies are/were only legal tender up to 25 cents with other coins having similar limits of 20-25 coins so even paying a $100 bill with toonies ($2 coin) can be refused.
      It gets even weirder with various commemorative/special issue coins such as the Olympic $5 & $10 coins I own where they are only legal tender for one.
      There is also a rule that people don't have to accept bills if they don't trust them for whatever reason, which is why it is legal for stores to refuse to cash a fifty or hundred.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    51. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dine and dash is a pretty common police report

    52. Re: Lower prices right? by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 0

      What butt-hurt post.

      All this crowing about how the ignored and disregarded people in the rural states electing the idiot in the oval office in retaliation is only going to make the pendulum swing harder the other way.
      Now they'll be ignored and disregarded HARDER after the cities get the vote out. Does he represent you? You MUST be ignorant.

      "you're arrogant and too full of yourself"

      Yea we also don't live in the fucking middle of nowhere, where there's nothing interesting to do. Church, hoe-downs, and methamphetamine do not for a fun weekend make. Crackerbarrel doesn't quite measure up.

      --
      "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
    53. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      McDonald's is not a restaurant.

    54. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't you try getting a job and moving out of your mother's house?

    55. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rural America are a bunch of rednecks with no money. You all think places like "Red Lobster" is fancy.

    56. Re: Lower prices right? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I don't even fucking live in America. I just happen to travel and experience things.

      You should give it a go, if you can pull your head out of your intestines.

    57. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those "rednecks with no money" are the reason trump got in. Maybe if the wealthy non-rednecks had treated them better they would have voted for Hillary.

    58. Re: Lower prices right? by ffejie · · Score: 1
      Not sure what you mean by "No, that goes away." I understand the rest of your post. I agree it's wasted goods for the store, but they're not going to turn around and give it to you for free because you tell them you don't have a card.

      While I can't speak to all of these places, the one cashless place that I frequent actually has it on the door on the way you walk in, and on the "sneeze guard" divider where you start your order. It's readily apparent for someone paying attention. I would not be surprised if they have to turn away one or fewer people per day.

      I have credit cards, but I never use them for food - using the simple principle of "if I can't see it when I pay the bill, it doesn't belong on the card". I should be able to take my bill, and physically see what was bought - tickets to an event (I have stubs), items, etc. Thus, consumables that will not last until bill day can't go on the credit card.

      I find this interesting, but totally arbitrary. Why create this division? What if you go to a theme park? What if you stay at a hotel? Are these cash or credit expenses? You can't see the good - both are experiences (and both generally would be pretty good candidates to have on a credit card). You'll have receipts, but nothing stops you from saving your receipt from the burrito you bought for lunch either. As someone who uses a credit card in most places, I don't really understand why someone would prefer cash unless it's for spending control/budgetary reasons.

      --
      Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
    59. Re: Lower prices right? by ffejie · · Score: 1

      Snopes seems to indicate that per the coinage act of 1965, coins are legal tender in this regard.

      --
      Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
    60. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those are not restatirants, thouse are snack/fast food places

    61. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fishing, camping, boating, 4x4ing, hiking, mountain biking, skiing...though i suppose your view is that you can do that from the local starbucks wifi because "there's an app for that".

    62. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dude your whole point is that you're such a tightwad that you're trying to skip out on the bill and eat for free because you can't afford a credit card or any kind of electronic payment.

    63. Re:Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe it depends on pay up front or pay after the meal. If it's after the meal, you owe them a debt. Think about it from a legal perspective. You've had your meal, the bill comes, you slap down cash and they refuse it, what are they going to do? They can't have you arrested, they can't sue you, it's not like you skipped out on the meal. Now, if it's before hand, you go to pay in cash, they can say "we don't accept cash" and refuse to give you a meal.

    64. Re:Lower prices right? by uncqual · · Score: 1

      I'm skeptical that is a "debt" legally. Assuming the policy of "No Cash" is posted, you agreed to those terms when you ordered.

      If you are in a Walmart and eat a candy bar while in the store and intentionally walk out without paying for it, what is that? It sounds like theft to me. If you think it's just a "debt", what about if you put the candy bar in your pocket and intentionally walk out without paying for it, what is that? It sounds like theft to me rather than owing a "debt". What if you are in a Walmart and intentionally walk out with a television set without paying for it, what is that? It sounds like theft to me rather than owing a debt. Intent may matter here though -- if you were unaware of the contract terms (didn't notice the sign), it's probably not a criminal matter.

      I would think in the case where the diner has eaten the meal and then doesn't have a credit or debit card to pay for it or simply refuses to use a card, it would be a civil issue that the restaurant could pursue in court and it might become a "debt" when a judgement against the diner is entered. In practice, they will probably take the cash and advise the diner that next time they can't pay via cash. If the diner repeats this behavior, the restaurant might again take cash but then inform the diner they are no longer welcome at the establishment and that they will be trespassing and the police will be called to arrest them if they return and don't leave upon request.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    65. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The federal reserve can define whatever it wants however it wants. In this case, the only definition that matters is the one a *court* would use.

    66. Re:Lower prices right? by castrox · · Score: 1

      Don't count on lowered prices. Here in Sweden the tax for food in restaurants was halved to 12.5% a few years ago. That had zero effect on prices and restaurants profits simply increased.

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    67. Re:Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It truly depends.

      If you pay up front, a la fast food, then yes you can easily refuse to accept cash.

      If its a sit down type restaurant then they bring you the food, and you settle the bill afterwards. That is a debt, you own for the food and service you enjoyed. Its a bit late to tell the customer, oh sorry we don't accept cash.

    68. Re: Lower prices right? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      While I can't speak to all of these places, the one cashless place that I frequent actually has it on the door on the way you walk in, and on the "sneeze guard" divider where you start your order. It's readily apparent for someone paying attention. I would not be surprised if they have to turn away one or fewer people per day.

      That is good. Because it means there's plenty of warning that I shouldn't line up at the place. So yes, they probably have only one or two declined customers per day - if you tell people you don't take cash with plenty of notice, then those who choose to pay in cash will automatically not enter. Only those who are oblivious enough to not see the signs would get caught.

      I find this interesting, but totally arbitrary. Why create this division? What if you go to a theme park? What if you stay at a hotel? Are these cash or credit expenses? You can't see the good - both are experiences (and both generally would be pretty good candidates to have on a credit card). You'll have receipts, but nothing stops you from saving your receipt from the burrito you bought for lunch either. As someone who uses a credit card in most places, I don't really understand why someone would prefer cash unless it's for spending control/budgetary reasons.

      It's actually a "responsible use of credit" thing. You put onto credit things that will last until you pay the bill (helps remind you why you spent so much money). If it was going to theme parks, you'd have stubs and souvenirs of the tickets, shows and crap you bought. But common meals, well, I can't tell you what I had for lunch on Friday (well, actually I can, but still).

      Plus, things like vacations and trips, you usually pay a good chunk of them ahead of time, so when you pay the bill, you still have the air tickets and such. It does break down if say, you need to go somewhere tomorrow at the very last minute, but hey, in general that's the rule.

    69. Re:Lower prices right? by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      Are you just playing silly games, or are you not thinking?

      1 - You can post what you want, you can put up signs saying 'no gays accepted in our restaurant' but the law says otherwise, posting signs does NOT change the law, and the law says that you can use your cash to pay a debt.

      2 - Walmart does NOT allow you to eat the candy bar before you pay for it, therefore that is the point you did something wrong - absolutely nothing to do with payment - they just may decide to accept a settlement (in effect) when you pay for it. As to the 'walk out with a televison set' you are just being intentionally stupid there.

      3 - It would be quite simply, in the court the diner would say "I offered legal tender to satisfy the debt then, and I offer it now, it is right here, will the restaurant still not accept my payment?' and the judge will laugh at the restaurant, and quite probably award costs.

      You last 'point' is getting closer to reality. If a restuarant want so negotiate a contract BEFORE the meal (hello, welcome to out restaurant, do you accept that we do not take cash for payment, and agree to use a debit or credit card to settle the debit?) then they have negotiated a contract and given you the chance to accept or negotiate back, THEN they would have standing.

    70. Re: Lower prices right? by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      As someone who uses a credit card in most places, I don't really understand why someone would prefer cash

      1) It's quicker for me. Unlike some of the dipsticks being complained about here and by the restauranteurs, I generally know what I need to pay and get my cash ready while in the queue for the cashier or walking towards them. I carry an assortment of denominations and very often give the right amount straight off, or requiring only a penny change for those 4.99 type prices. I am talking about the smaller purchases here.

      2) Again for smaller amounts it's cheaper for the shopkeeper. As I understand it in the UK at least, there is a minimum fee the shopkeeper pays to the credit card company. At least that's what a second-hand bookshop owner told a guy in front of me once in no uncertain terms when he offered a card for a book costing 3 pounds. They said the fee left them with no profit out of it.

      3) It shortens my card statement by dozens of items so I don't need to spend so much time later checking through against the retained receipts in case someone somewhere has got my card details and is using my account. Perhaps you don't bother doing that.

    71. Re: Lower prices right? by ffejie · · Score: 1

      3) It shortens my card statement by dozens of items so I don't need to spend so much time later checking through against the retained receipts in case someone somewhere has got my card details and is using my account. Perhaps you don't bother doing that.

      This used to be a big deal to me, but not really anymore. I find that I can check my credit card bill in about 3-5 minutes. Maybe I could cut this down to 1-2 minutes if I removed a bunch of transactions like you have. In general, I scan for all the merchants that I frequent, and as long as there's no double charges (or charges on the same day), and it's about what I remember, then I call it good. I am not matching all my receipts against my purchases. I can imagine if you do this, having dozens and dozens of sub $20 charges on your card monthly would be a pretty big hassle. I bet someone could sneak in a few Amazon.com transactions here and there and I'd have no idea if they were small in amount.

      --
      Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
    72. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does that "if I can't see it, it doesn't belong on the card" motto come from?

    73. Re: Lower prices right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Police arrive. Restaurant says you didn't pay... You tell officer I only have cash and here it is... see. Officer says looks like he can pay? Restaurant says we don't accept cash.
      You say they never told me this.

      Your meal is now free as there a zero chance you get arrested for failing to pay as you clearly have cash in your hand

  2. Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seriously, when I don't pay cash, I literally never leave a tip. When the machine ask if I want to leave a tip, I just press Ok on 0.00$ to skip that and go quicker.
    So pay your employees a living wage instead a relying on tips.

    1. Re:Cashless = No tips by ArchieBunker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You must not eat in the same restaurant twice. I can only imagine what's happened to your food...

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    2. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess, and when you pay cash, you round up to the next dollar and tell them to keep the change, as that's faster?

    3. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      err you kinda should if its a sit down restraunt. obviously things like jersey mikes which asks for a tip even though its a pick up place makes no sense but your kinda short changing your server if you dont write down a tip for a sit down...

    4. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah I know it makes me a jerk and an asshole. Sowwy!

    5. Re:Cashless = No tips by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      Yep. Jersey Mike's should tip ME for accepting those terrible excuses for sandwiches, really.

      But come on... no tip at all in a sit-down place? You demand slave labor from your servers then, I take it?

    6. Re:Cashless = No tips by RhettLivingston · · Score: 0, Troll

      If you can't or won't pay the tip (assuming the service is OK), you can't afford the meal. Go somewhere else.

      I can't imagine why you avoid paying the tip when using a card. It seems as though you're being petty and hurting nobody but the lowest paid individual involved.

    7. Re:Cashless = No tips by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      Even a fas food place with all workers behind the counter, I still leave a tip as the people that work there get a lot more impact from whatever I give them than I have by keeping it. At least a few dollars.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    8. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I support your activism.

    9. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As much as I agree that the GP is a complete asshole, the whole point of not paying a tip is precisely to misrepresent the price of the meal. Either that or to hire absolutely terrible servers and then just expect people to not pay them tips. Either way, it's an utter shit system. Honestly, it makes me want to open up a restaurant chain called Quick Licks. The food will be $0.10, but the blowjobs are $100 a pop. I mean, we're paying people for the service, right?

      PS - Yes, I'm obviously being sarcastic, but the whole idea of going to a restaurant with terrible service and paying people with tips is insane. At least with a place where you're actually, you know, paying for service, it'd actually make sense.

    10. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you think that the world should change, but you can't change yourself.

    11. Re:Cashless = No tips by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For me, I simply limit credit card purchases. Never ever buy consumables with a credit card, makes it a whole lot easier to track shonky transactions. So go to cash machine and get cash for all consumable purchases. Credit card or more accurately debit card, just to pay bills to produce an independent record of payment and tech gear or stuff ordered online to enable payments to be contested should they fail to meet required expectations. Out and about, always cash, maintains a level of privacy, less purchases from often somewhat less reliable billers and far fewer transactions to track.

      Never pay a tip, seems pretty tacky, denigrating must be because where I live, they get a living wage and not just fucked over.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    12. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A felony called food tampering?

      Let them try it.

    13. Re:Cashless = No tips by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      So pay your employees a living wage instead a relying on tips.

      Agreed. Restaurants just need to bite the bullet and raise prices by 30% and pass it on to the waitstaff already.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    14. Re:Cashless = No tips by RhettLivingston · · Score: 1

      You may be right, but the proper thing to do if you disagree with the business model is to stop patronizing the model.

    15. Re:Cashless = No tips by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      > the proper thing to do if you disagree with the business model is to stop patronizing the model.

      That's one opinion. Another is to not participate in the model that someone else wishes existed.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    16. Re:Cashless = No tips by preflex · · Score: 1

      But come on... no tip at all in a sit-down place? You demand slave labor from your servers then, I take it?

      No, it's the Restaurant owners that are demanding slave labor from their employees. It's their responsibility to pay them a reasonable wage, not the Customers'.

      If the employees' $2.13/hr wages+tips over the pay period averages less than minimum wage, the employer is obligated to make up the difference.

    17. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Increase price 50% to make up for the decrease in volume from the 30% price hike.

    18. Re: Cashless = No tips by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      A felony called food tampering?

      Let them try it.

      How are you even going to know? Spit doesn't have a distinctive flavor.

      Tipping is stupid, but that is not the fault of some waitress barely getting by.

    19. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Might be from Australia (for example) tips are not expected. And they are right about skipping through to be quicker.

    20. Re:Cashless = No tips by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Another is to not participate in the model that someone else wishes existed.

      Not patronizing at all is more effective, because it affects the people empowered to make the change. Lyft encourages tipping. Uber does not. So use Uber, and Lyft may change their policy. OTOH, Lyft may be able to attract more drivers, since many riders are not cheapskates.

    21. Re: Cashless = No tips by burtosis · · Score: 1

      Not having done it myself, you can take a sample of the food in and have it tested for saliva, fecal matter, various bodily fluids, etc. it's not even super expensive.

    22. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can still pay the tip with cash you know.

    23. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might want to watch one of the recent Xfiles episodes. "Rm9sbG93ZXJz"...

        The future may hold more tipping for everyone...

    24. Re:Cashless = No tips by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You tip *after* you've had the food, so long as you don't return to the same restaurant again you'll be fine.

      That said, the whole idea of expected tipping is quite ridiculous and causes all manner of problems.

      I travel often for business, i need receipts for my food and i get reimbursed, if you give me a receipt which includes the total amount including the tip i can claim back the tip which means i'm likely to be more generous with it. If i'm paying the tip out of my own pocket i'm going to be more stingy not least of all because i'm not eating out by choice - i'm away from home on business and can't prepare food at home like i normally would.

      Not only that but if your working in a restaurant, the restaurant should pay a reasonable wage, not expect you to pay 15% more than the advertised price to pay for the staff. If you need to charge more to pay for the staff then raise prices so the cost is up front, or add a service charge thats displayed on the menu. If you're advertising a price then i'll expect to pay the advertised price.

      You shouldn't be tipping staff simply for doing their job, you should tip them for going above and beyond. If they're simply doing their job to the expected standard then you've already covered the cost in the bill. It's even worse when you actually receive poor service and they still expect a tip!

      Another thing that annoys me is you're expected to tip the waiters, but what about the chef? If you hd a really good meal, wouldn't you rather reward the chef who cooked it? The guy who slaved away over a hot stove to produce a delicious meal, or should you reward the guy who relayed your order to the chef and then carried the order to you? Some restaurants actually replace the ordering part with a tablet located on the table, so the waiter only has to carry your order to you, i wouldn't be surprised to see that automated by a robot at some point too.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    25. Re:Cashless = No tips by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And because the tip is paid *after* the meal, and certain nationalities are known for not tipping, as soon as the waitress hears an australian accent you get terrible service.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    26. Re:Cashless = No tips by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      We neither demand nor expect slave labor, we expect to receive the goods we ordered for the advertised price, and to receive a receipt afterwards which accurately reflects the price we paid.

      If the menu states that a 15% service charge will be added on top of the cost of the individual items then that's fine, it's up front, we know the cost before we order and we have a record of the cost afterwards.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    27. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you can't or won't pay the tip (assuming the service is OK), you can't afford the meal.

      If you can't or won't pay your employees a living wage, you can't afford to run a business.

    28. Re: Cashless = No tips by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      it's not even super expensive.

      But likely more expensive than tipping.

      Also, by the time the testing is done, your food will be cold.

    29. Re:Cashless = No tips by SirSlud · · Score: 1

      If they paid a living wage, your bill would be 15% more. So just pay the 15% more. You're punishing the employee for a situation that isn't is his or her power to change over an amount of money you'd claim you'd pay anyways were it part of their salary. It doesn't paint your reasoning as having anyone's interests other than your own in mind.

      Chefs get paid more. Many places just share the tip totals anyhow. No system is perfect, but you're trying to reason with the world the way you think it should be, not the way it is. That's something most people mature out of at some point.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    30. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't tell if you said it that way in order to incite rage against "omg why my meal cost go up?!??", but just in case you did, allow me to say that I would be totally ok with that.

    31. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OTOH, Lyft may be able to attract more drivers, since many riders are not cheapskates.

      Just like how every fast food restaurant has plenty of staff, businesses that fuck over the workers continue to exist because they're plenty of asshole cheapskates. The more effective solution would be to take the entire bill and give it to the employee and none to the employer. Of course that doesn't work because (1) they'd fire the employee for theft and (2) you'd probably get arrested for failure to pay your bill. Funny that you don't get arrested for failure to pay the worker the "tip" they need to make the nominal minimum wage nor does the employer because waiting staff has a lower minimum wage (thanks to lobbying from restaurants)--because we all know restaurants would all go out of business if they paid their workers more. And by funny, I mean bullshit.

    32. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While you're right that restaurants should pay a living wage to their employees, employees still make a living off their tips and punishing them is not the way to make your point.

    33. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nau, tipc bi fer teh budwaazee.

    34. Re:Cashless = No tips by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      That's something most people mature out of at some point.

      Do you have any evidence to back up the use of most as a qualifier?

    35. Re:Cashless = No tips by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      If the employees' $2.13/hr wages+tips over the pay period averages less than minimum wage, the employer is obligated to make up the difference.

      ..not in the U.S., or at least any place in the U.S. I am familiar with.

      Such a system would be easily abused.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    36. Re:Cashless = No tips by houghi · · Score: 1

      I am not that afraid of tracking. When I pay with a card (and I do that for almost everything or sometimes debit card) I enter my PIN or not even that if I pay wireless.
      The stores will not have my card. I do not store my CC number on online stores, so they should not have it there either. Tjhe CC company will know where I bought something, but will not know WHAT I bought. In Belgium they are even not allowed to analyze that data for marketing (Yes, they do analyze it for fraud prevention. NO, they do not do it for marketing purposes, because they risk their right to do business).
      Next to that they are not allowed to sell that data and if they do, soon they could pay 4% of their global annual revenue or up to 20MM EUR.

      To me it is easier to follow my expenses as there is only one place I need to look: my bank. I can easily see all my income and expenses in one place.

      The places where I still pay cash and related to this article is in restaurants. When I go to some place to eat, I will go with some friends. It is then easier when getting the bill, just to divide it by two, three or four and each will pay that. In pubs paying cashless is not yet common, unfortunately. I would LOVE to have that to be able to order drinks and just pay wireless each time I order.

      We leave tips, but those will be more rounding up so we do not have to bother with change or because it is just easier to calculate. e.g. if the bill is say 163.70 EUR (looking at the last bill), we would pay 165 EUR or 53 EUR each. No, we do not bother the waiter to split the bill.)

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    37. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Getting terrible service for no tipping means people stop going to the restaurant altogether and employees going jobless.

    38. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chefs do not often get paid more, and now they get tipped out (in CA) by law. Prior to the new law it was very rare for back-of-the-house staff to get tips. Wait staff always pays better than cook staff, unless the cook staff are the owners.

    39. Re:Cashless = No tips by MrMr · · Score: 1

      Ok, so it is not gratuity, it is protection money?

    40. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not when you sue them. Is it worth it to them to pay the millions of dollars in settlement, going out of business and every employee losing their job?

      I don't tip. It's not my responsibility, it's the responsibility of the restaurant to pay their employees enough to live on. A tip is an insult. It implies that the person is poor.

    41. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's something most people mature out of at some point.

      You sound really insecure. I'll just leave you with this little tidbit of wisdom.

      “Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
        C.S. Lewis

    42. Re: Cashless = No tips by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      A Pizza Hut franchise near where I used to live made the mistake of doing this to some off-duty police officers. It didn't end well for either the employees responsible or the managers who were supposed to have prevented this.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    43. Re:Cashless = No tips by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Chefs get paid more

      Not universally true. For example, New York has a skills shortage for kitchen staff because they require at least a 6-month vocational training course and then end up making less than unqualified front-of-house staff (and in New York State it is legal to pool tips between front of house staff, but illegal to share tips with kitchen staff). A few of the upmarket restaurants have now started banning tips. This has been popular with their staff, because their income is now much more consistent (prior to that, it could vary hugely when, for example, you got a table of teetotalers or someone who orders the $200 bottle of wine, even if you give precisely the same service).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    44. Re:Cashless = No tips by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      If you can't or won't pay your employees a living wage, you can't afford to run a business.

      If an owner eliminates tips and raises prices to the exact amount required to make up for it, the total cost to the consumer will be higher because the price of food is subject to sales tax but the tip isn't.

      For instance:

      $9.09 burger, with some arbitrary 'base wage'
      $0.90 sales tax
      $2 tip
      -------
      $12 out of the customer's pocket

      $11.09 burger, where $2 goes to higher wages versus above
      $1.11 sales tax
      ------
      $12.20 out of the the customer's pocket.

      In an industry with such awful margins, that's a big deal. It's a strong incentive not to go tip-less..

    45. Re:Cashless = No tips by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

      You must not eat in the same restaurant twice. I can only imagine what's happened to your food...

      Why would you go back to a restaurant not worthy of a tip?

    46. Re:Cashless = No tips by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I pay a tip because I earn four times as much as people working service jobs and I recognise the effort they have to put in for the income they earn.

      If they're young it's a virtuous cycle, they'll get older and get better jobs and tip people. If they're not young then they're probably living financially on the edge so the money will be useful for them anyway.

      The only person that loses out is me. If they don't want the tip, they can always stick it in the charity jar.

    47. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A tip is an insult, but a gratuity is a show of gratitude, you ungrateful fucker.

    48. Re: Cashless = No tips by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      I wish staff were paid better. I always try to tip according to local custom, but when traveling itâ(TM)s difficult. Often guidebooks are unclear and sometimes expectations for visitors at different than for locals. Some places it confuses the staff, sometimes itâ(TM)s an insult.

      So much easier if staff were paid reasonably.

    49. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, who better to decide what my service person should be paid but me? I have worked as a dishwasher, maintenance person, electrician, computer engineer, and division manager. Of all of those jobs, the dishwashing was the one in which I worked the hardest. It should be paid at least as much as the others. I tip pretty well because I know the service personnel are usually working harder than the managers or owners and getting far less because of the prejudices of our society.

    50. Re:Cashless = No tips by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Having travelled to America many times I can categorically say I have never experienced this once.

    51. Re:Cashless = No tips by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      If an owner eliminates tips and raises prices to the exact amount required to make up for it, the total cost to the consumer will be higher because the price of food is subject to sales tax but the tip isn't.

      You just justified not abolishing the shithouse tipping culture to save in 20c worth of taxes. That is the single dumbest thing I've ever heard in the whole tipping debate. You should feel bad for even suggesting that there are people out there who care about this, but I suspect the reason you think that is you're probably the cheapest person alive.

    52. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you should punish the business itself (by not going to the restaurant in the first place) rather than just its workers (by giving them less compensation for their work), and then your efforts might stand some chance of having an impact.

    53. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably the nicest thing you've said or done on slashdot.

    54. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hear hear

    55. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another thing that annoys me is you're expected to tip the waiters, but what about the chef? If you hd a really good meal, wouldn't you rather reward the chef who cooked it? The guy who slaved away over a hot stove to produce a delicious meal, or should you reward the guy who relayed your order to the chef and then carried the order to you? Some restaurants actually replace the ordering part with a tablet located on the table, so the waiter only has to carry your order to you, i wouldn't be surprised to see that automated by a robot at some point too.

      I've always wondered about this myself, other than taking the order and refilling drinks there isn't much work that the waiter really did for you. Someone else actually prepared it and a different person brought it out so why does the waiter get the tip? I doubt that they actually split it with the others.

    56. Re:Cashless = No tips by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      I look at my bill and I give the 15% rounded up to the nearest dollar into the server's hand. I am probably contributing to unpaid taxes on tips. But that is small amounts when you compare the President of the USA not paying Income taxes for years.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    57. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need a pen.

      When you tip (via any means) you use your pen to write the tip and total on the receipt. I also sign and date the edit, as a mark that I am professionally vouching that the amount is valid.

      These receipts go through the reimbursement process with all of my clients and every one of them pay the correct amount, plus a few complement me on how well I do my receipts.

      I always use cash for everything when travelling for work, it makes me more flexible and I can adapt to dynamic situations more easily (public transport, splitting bills, meals at street vendors that don't take plastic, looking after my customers in any way they need (up to and including drugs and hookers), than I could with a card.

      Personally I think cashless is a mistake. There is no reason why the new payment systems can't coexist with cash. Look at all the Facebook privacy BS and how many are surprised by the state of affairs. It will be exactly the same with cashless in 10-15 years.

      Personally, if an establishment goes cashless I won't go there, period, and I don't care how "good" it is supposed to be.

    58. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By whom?

    59. Re:Cashless = No tips by preflex · · Score: 1

      It's federal law in the US.

    60. Re:Cashless = No tips by youngone · · Score: 1
      This is an extremely American article.

      Everywhere else in the western world we have had EFT-POS (or similar) for about thirty years, and we use it.

      On a related note the number of Americans who talk about "checks" like it's still the 1960's amazes me.

      Having the customer pay the restaurant's staff through tips is just another way they can pretend they're all temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

    61. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And punish the wait staff for a system that they have little to no control over? Classy. I bet you eat a lot of other peoples mucus when you eat out.

    62. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least from my days in fast food, unless it's a cash tip, don't bother. Any tips left via credit card went straight to the owner and the employees never saw a penny.

    63. Re: Cashless = No tips by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Receipts which have been modified by hand using a pen attract extra scrutiny from the tax authorities, as it's trivially easy to forge.

      Also if you pay for expenses with cash you effectively lose that money until you get reimbursed, if you pay for it on a card you usually have at least a month interest free before you actually have to pay for it. For insignificant amounts it may not be a problem, for large amounts it certainly can be.

      The exchange rates offered for taking cash are usually worse than those offered when paying card, and you have to prepare in advance by carrying enough cash to cover any eventuality, carrying lots of cash around can often be extremely risky and ending up with lots of small change is annoying.

      Yes offering multiple payment methods is preferable, but each added payment method adds cost for the retailer and cash is one of the most expensive methods to provide.

      --
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    64. Re:Cashless = No tips by mjwx · · Score: 1

      You must not eat in the same restaurant twice. I can only imagine what's happened to your food...

      I live in a civilised country where we pay service staff a liveable wage. I'm polite and friendly to service staff so I cant see a problem. This semi-enforced tipping thing seems like a poor way to disguise a price increase and to be frank, rather arse about (short for "arse about face" meaning "one's posterior is pointing in the direction one should expect one's face to be pointing" or put simply, backwards).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    65. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you give shit service based on someone's accent you don't deserve a tip anyway

    66. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that is small amounts when you compare the President of the USA not paying Income taxes for years.

      As best as we can tell, he pay no taxes, because he failed as a businessman. If you lose more money than you make, you pay no taxes and that is the best theory we have. This is also likely why he doesn't want to release his tax returns. Not because he paid no taxes, he's proud of that, but because they show he's still deducting losses from almost a decade ago.

    67. Re:Cashless = No tips by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Which is not the same thing as saying it's done. Lots of employers violate the law, and just fire anyone who complains about illegal treatment.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    68. Re:Cashless = No tips by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If you don't go to restaurants that expect tips, you avoid the issue (as well as most restaurants in the US). If you go to restaurants that expect tips, and don't tip, you're screwing the staff over. They get a lowered minimum wage out of expectation of tips, and the IRS will assume a certain minimum amount of tipping in their income when they file taxes. You're not bothering the people who have any decision-making power.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    69. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pay a tip because I earn four times as much as people working service jobs and I recognise the effort they have to put in for the income they earn.

      Do you tip at Walmart? The grocery store? When you get an oil change? Every receptionist you deal with? At fast food places? I think you don't. So why are restaurants special? You explanation doesn't hold water.

    70. Re:Cashless = No tips by preflex · · Score: 1

      So, you're making my point. It's not the customers who want slave labor for free, it's the employers.

      Most employers are ignorant of the law. Even more employees are ignorant of the law. And most customers think that servers are getting at least the regular federal minimum wage. The whole system depends on ignorance.

      The $2.13/hr is only there so that taxes can be deducted. When I worked at Chili's, I would often get $0.00 paychecks (Wages - Taxes). I used to keep one of my "goose eggs" taped to the back of my ticket book when I was taking orders. The customers were astonished, and often asked me about it.

      However, customers usually tip reasonably well, and failure to average at least minimum wage of the course of a pay period was never an issue for me. If it had, you can be sure I would have raised a stink about it.

      Refusing to pay, and then firing for complaining about it would be a really expensive idea for employers in my state. They would owe treble damages on the unpaid wages, and also be exposing themselves to a nasty lawsuit for wrongful termination. Go ahead, make my day.

    71. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Restaurants just need to bite the bullet and raise prices by 30% and pass it on to the waitstaff already.

      You clearly don't understand capitalism. If a restaurant raised its prices that dramatically, all the business will instantly go elsewhere and the poor restaurant would go out of business. How does that solve anything?

    72. Re: Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Receipts which have been modified by hand using a pen attract extra scrutiny from the tax authorities, as it's trivially easy to forge."

      Not my problem. I submit my receipts to receive reimbursement from my clients - the tax man is not involved at all.

    73. Re:Cashless = No tips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's the Restaurant owners that are demanding slave labor from their employees. It's their responsibility to pay them a reasonable wage, not the Customers'.

      If the employees' $2.13/hr wages+tips over the pay period averages less than minimum wage, the employer is obligated to make up the difference.

      Nope. Nearly every state has exceptions in their minimum wage laws for tipped labor, so your claim that "the employer is obligated to make up the difference" is false.

      And, unfortunately, "Nope" again. Your use of the words "responsibility" and "reasonable" is wrong. Although most people believe capitalism begins and ends with the retail sales market, the truth is there are lots of different marketplaces in our capitalist system. The stock market, the bond market, the commodities futures market, the real estate market, the marketplace for industrial machinery, and the labor market are all good examples. In the labor market, employers do not have this "responsibility" you're imagining, and there's no definition of "reasonable" beyond peoples' personal opinions.

      Employers are not demanding slave labor, either. They are offering payment of a certain wage in exchange for an hour's work. The reason employers pay that much, however much that is in any certain instance, is because the labor accepted the offer. If the wage isn't high enough, employees are free to get a different job that pays more. If enough of the employees leave and a restaurant owner can't keep the positions filled with the wages he's offering, he is forced to raise his offer in order to stay in business. Again, slavery was abolished in the 19th century and there is no legal market for slave labor. The idea you're selling that employers are "slave drivers" simply isn't true.

      In America everyone is free to do as they please. If you think a wage is too low, don't work for that employer. If your employer thinks you're paid too much, he's free to lay you off and hire someone else who does a better job for the same or less money. The natural consequence of our capitalist marketplace is people naturally gravitate to the career fields and the jobs within them where they make the best possible money for the work they do with the skills and education they have to offer. If you don't have the inclination to find a better job and you prefer to stay where you are, that's completely fine. You have the absolute freedom to make that decision for yourself.

      This is your life and you are responsible for it. If you're unhappy with your life, it's your responsibility to make it better. Instead of whining and complaining about things and calling your employer a slave driver, get off your lazy ass and improve your life.

    74. Re:Cashless = No tips by preflex · · Score: 1

      Nope. Nearly every state has exceptions in their minimum wage laws for tipped labor, so your claim that "the employer is obligated to make up the difference" is false.

      It is true that some states have higher standards than the federal law (which requires that employers make up the difference up to $7.25), but none of them are lower.

      Nothing else you wrote is relevant in any way.

  3. They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I have to disagree with those who assert it is possible to refuse to pay in cash.

    When you go out to eat you are being extended credit paid at the end of the meal prior to leaving.

    By the time you pay your check you are paying off a debt. They can't refuse payment of that debt in cash.

    They can require payment up front in bitcakes or credit corns BEFORE serving you. The second they extend credit in the form of paying after the meal is the second they lose their right not to accept cash.

    1. Re:They lose my business by Misagon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Where I live, the practice is that if the restaurant has a sign by the door that they accept only credit/debit cards and you still enter and order, then that counts as a "preexisting agreement" that you are supposed to pay with card.

      That's legal wrangling for you but does not work with human behaviour. People miss those signs all the time.

      --
      "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
    2. Re: They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, then you walk out and pay later when they come to collect your debt to them in the only substance that is legal tender for all debts. It's on them to establish your debt to them, and fuck 'em if they don't want your money.

    3. Re:They lose my business by gravewax · · Score: 1

      then all they need to do is make it clear that cash attracts a 20% processing fee.

    4. Re:They lose my business by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Where I live, the practice is that if the restaurant has a sign by the door that they accept only credit/debit cards and you still enter and order, then that counts as a "preexisting agreement" that you are supposed to pay with card. That's legal wrangling for you but does not work with human behaviour. People miss those signs all the time.

      As long as they courts are willing to play along, who cares? If they've first established that you're in the wrong, they can act like letting you pay in cash is an act of kindness. Or adds a cash processing fee. If it goes to court they'll just say the agreement was accepted, we made a reasonable attempt at settlement so please slap this person wasting the court's time. It's usually a bad idea to play hardball if you're going to lose...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:They lose my business by EvilSS · · Score: 0

      By the time you pay your check you are paying off a debt. They can't refuse payment of that debt in cash.

      No they call the police and have you arrested for theft of services. Just like if they were a cash only establishment and you went in with just credit cards and refused to pay in cash.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    6. Re:They lose my business by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      Yup. The places that really annoy me are the ones that refuse plastic.
      They tell me I can use the ATM machine with its processing fee. What a ripoff.

      I also see that many of the posters are ignoring the part of the article about the time and cost of money handling, as well as the exposure to theft. All the pot shops have armed guards because all transactions are in cash. Lots of cash. Colorado makes $2 million a month in taxes, all in twenties ;-)

      Can you imagine having to count that by hand?

    7. Re:They lose my business by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      There are cash-counting machines, no one really counts it by hand.

      Also, what's the big deal about carrying a few $20s for places that refuse fake money?

    8. Re: They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cash is legal tender. It HAS to be accepted for all debts.

      I guess if a restaurant chooses to accept only credit cards, the meal is free.

    9. Re:They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fool, these are restaurants where you pay at the register. It's no different from buying a pack of gum at the supermarket. Nobody is saying that Per Se is going cashless.

    10. Re:They lose my business by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      Yea I keep a few hundred hidden in my car for emergencies like this or "woops, forgot my wallet and I'm out of fuel".

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    11. Re:They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is something printed on the money about “legal tender” for all debts public and private. Therefore you order and eat your meal. Now are in debt to them. Offer to pay for it in cash. If they refuse it, then just walk out. If they call the cops, then tell the cop you want to pay, show the cop the statement on the money and then see what happens. If enough people do that, they will soon change their greedy policy.

    12. Re:They lose my business by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Nope. If you make a genuine offer to pay, and they refuse its 100% a CIVIL matter, cops are powerless. Its only criminal if you try to defraud, which is exactly what the law is labeled in most states.

      --
      Good-bye
    13. Re:They lose my business by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      Nope. If you make a genuine offer to pay, and they refuse its 100% a CIVIL matter, cops are powerless. Its only criminal if you try to defraud, which is exactly what the law is labeled in most states.

      You be sure to tell the cops that as they put you in the back of the squad car.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    14. Re:They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder what they'd do when my card doesn't work. I actually had this happen once. I called the credit card company when it was declined they said it wasn't scanned right. Thankfully that restaurant took my cash after it failed a second time.

    15. Re:They lose my business by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So long as they declare up front what method of payment they accept, then they have no obligation to accept cash.
      The fault is yours if you accrue a debt when you know that you'll be unable to repay it.

      It does work the other way round, if the restaurant has a mastercard sign on the door and you present a mastercard to pay for the meal but they tell you their card machine is faulty it's not your responsibility to provide cash. I've had that happen a few times with restaurants where they want to take cash (tor tax evasion purposes) so they claim the card machine is faulty... When you point out that's their problem and you're not carrying any cash it usually magically fixes itself.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    16. Re:They lose my business by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I had a card where the chip wouldn't read in some meters. You couldn't tell whether it would or not without trying it. After a bit of hassling they sent me a new card, but it took a couple of weeks. But the thing is, that time it was predictable, after the first trial. No guarantees that the failure mode will always be that considerate.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    17. Re:They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it is different then buying a pack of gum. The fact that you don't understand that shows you're a moron.

    18. Re:They lose my business by QuantumLeaper · · Score: 1

      I used to go to a place that there was a CA$H discount, 15% if I remember correctly. It wasn't a restaurant. Since it cost them money no matter if it Plastic or cash to process the bill. I believe they are still in business.

    19. Re: They lose my business by TristanWibberley · · Score: 1

      You mean the courts will disregard statutes regarding payment of debts?

    20. Re: They lose my business by TristanWibberley · · Score: 1

      Why would the police disregard statutes regarding tendering of payment for debts which allow you to do this? The requirement to pay a debt without cash isnt agreed even if there's a signpost so you haven't stolen anything.

    21. Re: They lose my business by TristanWibberley · · Score: 1

      If you tell them you tendered payment in accordance with the law and the restaurant owner has involved them in a civil dispute over the form of the tender of payment. Im sure they'll be like "yeah, we dont arrest people over contract disputes because it wastes our very valuable time and we get lawsuits for wrongful improsonment at best and criminal charges against us at worst". Sometimes they might be like "The signpost says you agree to pay by card" and you'd be like "If it's an agreement then it must be a civil matter and anyway the signpost is a lie they are required by law to receive payment in cash of the right denomination so I've paid just now when I offered cash as per the relevant statutes. They have gifted the cash back to me by saying they wont take it in the way the statute describes they may if and only if they wish to gift it to me". Then the police have a tough job saying you stile anything especially since the statutes say the situation is that you were gifted the money back or gifted the services after a successful payment. How could you steal something that was gifted to you or that you have paid for and were gifted back the money.

    22. Re:They lose my business by houghi · · Score: 1

      If it is clearly indicated, then they are in their rights to do so. I wonder where you live and how much cashless is used. I could see that happening in e.g Sweden or so and the problem would then come from tourists.

      The opposite happens as well and perhaps even more. There is no indication that cards are accepted and they still go in with not enough cash and then demand to speak to the manager (you know the hairstyle).

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    23. Re:They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Forgot my wallet" is just code for "I never intended to pay to begin with"

      The wallet isn't some mystery device that is more likely to be forgotten than the smartphone or keys but for some reason only the first one is commonly "forgotten".

    24. Re:They lose my business by houghi · · Score: 1

      I could imagine that would be illegal. So what they can do instead is say that if you pay with card is get a reduction. So instead of the price going from 100.00 USD to 120.00 USD, the price will go from 120.00 USD to 96.00 USD.
      In the US it would even be easier to even the prices out so that it is the same as the sales tax. Then just say "No sales tax to pay if you pay by card". Double wammy as not only people will know what things actually costs, you blame the country for having public services that need to be paid.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    25. Re:They lose my business by houghi · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between falsely saying the machine is broke or the machine being broken. I have been in situations where the machine was actually broken.

      In Belgium if they would try that, I would ask for an official receipt (that they need to give anyway) and that way they have to declare it anyway. Or risk of getting caught even sooner. Not willing ton give that? OK, please call the police. See how that works out. I have not only a right, but am forced, by law, to have that receipt with me and they could ask me for it when I leave and am outside. (Does not really happen any more)

      So now they have a non-paying customer as they are unwilling to do their part of the transaction AND the police and they will be pissed so they will inform the tax authorities who then will comb over the merchant. He will need to pay a big fine and will be on the radar for the next 5 to 10 years.

      Do not try any of this in Belgium if you do not know the law enough to explain t his to the police and/or if you are in a hurry.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    26. Re:They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had that happen a few times with restaurants where they want to take cash (tor tax evasion purposes) so they claim the card machine is faulty... When you point out that's their problem and you're not carrying any cash it usually magically fixes itself.

      Are you comfortable with using your card in an establishment like that?
      If that would happen to me I would probably find that I were carrying cash with me after all.

    27. Re: They lose my business by reanjr · · Score: 1

      Except you are completely wrong and ignorant about the law. The law says you must accept cash if someone owes you. If you do not accept cash, then that person does not owe you anything but a pile of cash. If you refuse to take the cash, you are refusing payment for your services. None of this applies to credit. No one is forcing you to accept credit for payment.

    28. Re: They lose my business by reanjr · · Score: 1

      I don't think you can say "No sales tax" without bumping up against laws about clear pricing. You have to say something like "We pay the sales tax". Because sales tax is still getting paid, the cost basis for that tax would be a lie if it were presented as "no sales tax".

    29. Re: They lose my business by reanjr · · Score: 1

      There is no processing fee for paying "all debts public and private" with "legal tender". This isn't business, this is monetary policy. Businesses don't just get to make up their own monetary policies.

    30. Re: They lose my business by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The term of the debt was that it was for a very short period and that it would be settled with a card. You may be able to argue that they are legally required to accept cash in payment for the debt, but if you are also not agreeing to the terms of the contract then they are free to add additional processing charges and may even simply refer you to a debt collection agency that can handle the cash payment.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    31. Re:They lose my business by Cederic · · Score: 1

      You don't know my friend. He can forget his keys, his phone and his wallet, or any combination thereof, and irrespective of whether he placed them last in his house, on a restaurant table, in someone else's car or anywhere else.

      He's a total fuckwit, yes.

    32. Re:They lose my business by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Hang on. I'm having dinner in Belgium on Wednesday and you're telling me it'll be illegal for me to leave the restaurant without the receipt?

      What fucked up law is that?

    33. Re:They lose my business by west · · Score: 1

      Yes, I've been to a few countries with stores having signs indicating the law that they *must* give you a receipt and if they fail to do so, you *must* ask for one. It's requiring the citizens to do their part in fighting tax evasion.

    34. Re:They lose my business by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Them giving me a receipt has absolutely fuck all to do with whether I pick it up or take it with me.

      Certainly after the coffee I had near Brussels on Tuesday nobody chased me back to my car (or indeed, into Holland) to complain that I'd left the combined bill/receipt on the table.

      Along with the money to pay it.

    35. Re: They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A cash machine with a fee? Never encountered such a thing.

    36. Re:They lose my business by west · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you don't understand.

      The government wants to ensure that businesses report all the income they receive. If everyone gets a receipt, then an agent need only make a few purchases, see that those receipts do indeed show up in the books, and has some level of confidence that the merchant is reporting all their receipts.

      If receipts were only issued occasionally, then it would be very easy to conceal only the income for which no receipt was issued. If the government can create a culture where people expect to get a receipt, then for many fraud-prone businesses, this line of fraud becomes too much work.

      The fact that you don't retain your receipt is immaterial. It's that you must be issued the receipt and the merchant *might* be asked to account for that receipt in his books.

      You were part of the enforcement mechanism the moment you received your receipt.

      And yes, perhaps you could get in trouble for not asking for a receipt. But since most citizens are compliant and don't feel that tax fraud is in their favour, it's highly likely that there's a high enough rate of compliance that no prosecutions for failure to ask for a receipt are necessary.

    37. Re:They lose my business by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I do fucking understand and you're the idiot that didn't read the part to which I was responding:

      forced, by law, to have that receipt with me and they could ask me for it when I leave and am outside

      Good fucking luck Belgian police trying that one on me.

    38. Re:They lose my business by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Somebody rifled my car over the weekend. I found a lot of stuff just dumped on the passenger's seat, and the driver's door not fully closed. The most valuable thing was my snowbrush, but I suspect if I'd kept cash it would have disappeared.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    39. Re:They lose my business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Re: keys, my girlfriend keeps her house keys and car keys on separate rings. Some days she drives to work, other days she buses, so she saves on carrying the car keys on the bus. Other times, we go out together, she's driving, and I lock the house door while she starts the car. Often, she doesn't bring her house keys on those trips.

      Meanwhile, every time I leave the house, I have my a) wallet, b) keys, and c) smartphone in my pockets.

      It's a little funny when I end up driving us home, and then she has to wait for me to park the car and come to the door with my keys :)

    40. Re: They lose my business by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      No, just about 100% no.
      1 - There are no terms, BECAUSE YOU DID NOT ENTER IN TO A DAMN CONTRACT. Them simply having a sign which you may or may not have seen is NOT a contract, and never will be. For it to be a contract they must verify that you have seen and agreed to it.
      2 - They cannot just make up extra parts to this fantasy contract to penalise you further for it.
      3 - It would not be legal anyway, because the law says so. In the same way that they cannot put a sign saying 'no gays allowed in our restaurant!'

    41. Re: They lose my business by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      There are no terms, BECAUSE YOU DID NOT ENTER IN TO A DAMN CONTRACT. Them simply having a sign which you may or may not have seen is NOT a contract, and never will be. For it to be a contract they must verify that you have seen and agreed to it.

      In any common-law jurisdiction, the legal definition of a valid contract simply evidence of 'a meeting of minds'. There is a large body of case law regarding signs, particularly in the case of parking on private property. If there is a sign saying 'parking $5/hour' and you park, then you are assumed by law to have agreed to pay $5 for each hour that you park. From the perspective of a court, a contract has been agreed and if you don't pay then you are legally in breach of contract.

      They cannot just make up extra parts to this fantasy contract to penalise you further for it.

      They don't have to. A contract exists and there is statute law regarding breach of contract if the debt is not settled according to the terms of the contract. The common case would be to simply refer you to a debt collection agency, who will crap on your credit record and charge you the fee and take you to court if you don't pay. Unless you can convince a court that a reasonable person (in legal terminology) would not have seen the sign, then you will lose. If you try to argue that the contract is illegal then the other side's barrister will ask you if you saw the sign and were aware of the terms and entered with the intent to disregard them and then sit down content in the knowledge that you've just agreed to pay his legal fees.

      It would not be legal anyway, because the law says so. In the same way that they cannot put a sign saying 'no gays allowed in our restaurant!'

      The law does not say no. If it did, barter and commodities trading would be illegal. It's perfectly acceptable for me to offer to sell you 5 tons of flax in exchange for 12 tons of wheat. If I deliver you 5 tons of flax and you then say 'oh, actually, I don't have any wheat' then the law says that I am required to accept cash for the settlement of the debt, but it also allows me to take you to court for breach of contract, or allow you to settle out of court for a fee. A contract requiring payment by credit card is exactly the same kind of transaction. If you aren't able to pay in the form defined by the contract, then you are in breach of contract and can either pay a fee to settle out of court, or you can go to court and pay a lot more.

      Putting a sign up saying 'no gays' is only not permitted because of explicit anti-discrimination legislation and has no relevance to a simple breach of contract with legally permitted terms. Putting up a sign saying 'no jeans, no trainers' is completely allowed, for example.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    42. Re: They lose my business by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      There is no law that requires a business to accept any specific form of payment so the rest of your argument is moot. Also you should review those laws you think you know. They are heavily tilted to the business owners.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    43. Re:They lose my business by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      Somebody rifled my car over the weekend. ... I suspect if I'd kept cash it would have disappeared.

      I keep about 25 GBP in my car and would not care much about it if taken by someone who broke in. Have you any idea what it costs to repair a broken car window or door? The 25 GBP is at the noise level in the total. Insurance? - they'll get it back off you somehow.

  4. Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by SmaryJerry · · Score: 3, Informative

    Cash costs money but credit cards take a lot more depending on the size of the purchase.

    1. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cash is still far more expensive for a business, the cost to secure, transport and the insurance costs well and truly exceed credit card costs.

    2. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      cards take less than 5%

      cash you need to pay people to count it, pick it up, do the bookkeeping, account for theft and pay the bank to accept your deposit

    3. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Cash costs money but credit cards take a lot more depending on the size of the purchase.

      Indeed, because they add a lot of services into that "credit" side of it like for example travel insurance and kickbacks where customers appear to be "saving" money. In Europe there's actually a lot of alternative debit card systems run by the banks, like here in Norway there's "BankAxept". In Germany they have "Girocard". Without all the bells and whistles here in Norway at least they pay roughly $0.02/transaction, which is way below the cost of actually handling cash. So honestly, the only reason businesses accept cash here is because they must. The moment the law changes and they're not required to I imagine very many businesses will go cashless. So if you're thinking cashless won't happen because companies won't accept it, well you're wrong. Really the only compelling argument is that in a real emergency society would collapse if people couldn't pay for basic necessities, so everyone should have a cash reserve. But it's like fire insurance on your house, hopefully you'll never ever need it.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      This is not far-fetched in the US at all. See also, widespread blackouts and telecomm outages in 2012 after Hurricane Sandy. 2003 Northeast blackout. And that's just one decade, in one part of the country.

    5. Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by gravewax · · Score: 1

      costs nothing, what fucking world do you live in? My parents used to pay thousands to accept cash. The armoured vans that did the cash pickup alone cost more than the credit card fees, insurance to have cash on premises was also around 20% premium when they used to run their business. Then you had the loss through teller mistakes/mishandling/theft as well as the cost of someone collecting and accounting for it all. Cash is EXPENSIVE to process.

    6. Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah perhaps you might want to join the real world instead of your moms basement. back in the 90's we actually killed part of our business due to the cost of processing cash and kept just the furniture and carpet parts where we could demand payment only by credit card/cheque/bank transfer. Cash is a pain in the arse and incredibly expensive for any business with a large volume turnover.

    7. Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Cash is also expensive for people. Trips to the bank, having to plan your week in advance so you have sufficient cash, lost and stolen money.

    8. Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Counting. Change. Sure, it doesn't take that much time. But it's an activity that you do over, and over, and over, and over....

      Counting out and tallying drawers. Yes, only once or twice a day, maybe twice per shift at most. But that adds up, shift after shift, after shift.

      Counting and tallying deposits. Again, not all the time, but at the end of every shift, every day, counting it up all by hand, tallying it all, filling out the slip, etc.

      Cash takes up so much staff time, it's really ridiculous. I definitely get how 3% fees for credit cards is a better deal for most businesses.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    9. Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although handling cash is slightly more expensive than credit card merchant fees, the fact that cash is under reported for tax purposes more than makes up for it.

    10. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by houghi · · Score: 0

      There is another HUGE reason stores want cash. They are able not to declare it as income, although that has been a lot harder, in pubs in Belgium it is still a huge deal. Not paying taxes will be better than the cost of handling the money.

      The best way to do this is set a percentage of your cash income to do that. e.g. 50% Not only do you not declare 50% of the money, you also buy 50% of the goods without an official bill. Do not forget anything. e.g. do not forget the cookies you give away with coffee, as they people checking you are not idiots and know they numbers well enough to see if they must look closer. If they do, you are fucked.

      Now the difference between Europe and the US is that in Soviet Europe, companies listen to the government.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    11. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come to Australia,
      All of Chinatown and Vietnamville ONLY accept cash and have a 5% CC card fee.
      Or version if the IRS did raids, and guess what? Income underreporting.

    12. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Squirmy+McPhee · · Score: 1

      Indeed, because they add a lot of services into that "credit" side of it like for example travel insurance and kickbacks where customers appear to be "saving" money. In Europe there's actually a lot of alternative debit card systems run by the banks, like here in Norway there's "BankAxept". In Germany they have "Girocard". Without all the bells and whistles here in Norway at least they pay roughly $0.02/transaction, which is way below the cost of actually handling cash. So honestly, the only reason businesses accept cash here is because they must.

      Perhaps that's true in Norway, but I don't think that generalizes to all of Europe. It certainly has not been my experience in France or (especially) Belgium. In Belgium I always make sure I'm carrying double the cash I think I need and I stop at the ATM every chance I get, because they don't have them on every corner like in some parts of the world. Even many of the businesses that are not cash-only will only accept cards that work on the local Bancontact network, which means that if you don't have cash you have to have a Belgian bank account, and some charge an extra percentage or require a minimum purchase (10€ is common) if you want to pay by card. Up until a few years ago you couldn't even buy a train ticket from an automated kiosk without cash or a Belgian bank card! That's been changing a bit over the last five years, especially in the bigger cities, but I don't know anywhere in Belgium that prefers plastic over cash.

      Big cities in France are not quite so extreme as that, largely because they have so many foreign tourists, I think, but the countryside can be much the same as Belgium. Even in central Paris, though, I always ask what their minimum is before I try to pay by card. Even the big grocery chains have one, though it is usually only 1€.

      Then contrast that with China, where at least in urban areas they've gone from a largely cash-based system to mobile-phone-based payments in a very short time, practically skipping plastic altogether....

    13. Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      A few years ago there was an article on Slashdot that looked at all of the costs. For very small businesses, cash was a clear winner. For large businesses, which are big enough to be paying less than the 3% that you pay for low-volume transaction rates accepting cards, credit cards were a clear winner. The cut-off point where cards were cheaper was much lower than I'd expect, and below the turnover for most shops and restaurants.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    14. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Kjella · · Score: 1

      In Belgium (...) many of the businesses that are not cash-only will only accept cards that work on the local Bancontact network

      Yes, this is the situation in most of Europe today, there's a national system and they let VISA/MasterCard/AmEx etc. deal with foreigners either by forcing you to visit an ATM, just eating the cost because it's a so small part of their business it's not worth bothering with or it's a tourist place with tourist prices where they just factor it into the overhead. Clearly if they wanted to go cashless there would have to be a better way to for foreign visitors to get into the national "eCash" system. Which wouldn't be that hard, just set up a way to issue such cards on international hubs and border crossings that'd be kinda like Visa Electron, online-only debit cards. The government would probably tie them to foreign passports to curb them from being used as anonymous domestic quasi-cash by passing them around, but even if they didn't they'd keep a much better track of the money flow than today.

      Yes, I know many smaller businesses would like cash to pocket a bit of money on the side but I think the big chains, large consumer products and high end market would jump on it. Maybe the burger store on the corner but if you want a burger from McD or Burger King would love cashless, less risk of theft or embezzlement. Same thing with Wal-Mart. Those selling TVs and washing machines probably too, they don't want to sit on the cash from big ticket expenses. I think this would quickly become a snowballing practice, a few stores/shops start encouraging/pressuring consumers to get electronic and then a few more stores and a few more consumers until that is suddenly the norm.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    15. Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pay to accept the deposit? Lol

      Get better banks.

    16. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by skids · · Score: 1

      This does not jive with what some of the mom-and-pop cash-only business owners around here have told me. Merchant fees on CC processing are their main reason for not taking cards. The restaurants surveyed must be pretty friggin high-volume, have accounts at suck-ass banks, and be operating in crime-ridden areas.

      Also making change is often faster than waiting for the transaction delay while processing cards if you are connected by POTS.

    17. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Restaurants are unlikely to be open if the power's out though.

    18. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When your credit card processor, ISP, or telephone company doesn't have power, but your business does, what do you do?

    19. Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go back to the real world where all of those have multiple redundant power supplies, UPSes backup systems, etc.

    20. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are bullshitting you, basically the reason mom and pop stores prefer cash is come tax time under reporting your earnings is much easier to do when it is cash, Credit Cards leave transaction records you just can't hide.

    21. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah NO, that is all gone now, you are not allowed to charge CC fees above what it actually costs anymore. If they are still doing that anywhere in Aus you should be reporting them.

    22. Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too by mjwx · · Score: 1

      cards take less than 5%

      cash you need to pay people to count it, pick it up, do the bookkeeping, account for theft and pay the bank to accept your deposit

      Which costs a lot less than 5%.

      Also, when you've got a business account, deposits are free unless you live in a shonky third world country with no banking regulations. If you're willing to pay for it, you can get it picked up from your business. I owned a business back in the early 00's, cash was simple. I'd count it, I'd stick it in an envelope with the deposit slip and drop it through the deposit box on my way home (back in those days, banks shut at 16:45 on the dot or earlier). It would appear in my account within 24 hours... which was 24-36 hours sooner than credit transactions. This is why maintaining a OPEX reserve is important.

      A large food court near me decided to do this cashless thing. They've lost about 20% of their business since then and it's still declining. Meanwhile, restaurants around them charging in whole pounds (Sterling, you know, Doctor Who money) have been experiencing an uptick in sales.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  5. Just insist on using cash. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you don't have a credit card, what are they going to do, throw you in jail? After eating if you have cash in hand and the place refuses it, then just walk out. The place has established they do not want your money.

  6. What happens? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't eat there.

    1. Re:What happens? by skids · · Score: 2

      Pretty much. I confine my CC transactions as much as feasible to reduce the risk of falling victim to e-fraud. Unless I eat there regularly, I am going to pay cash, and if you don't take it, you won;t get my business.

  7. The real question by king+neckbeard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The real question was never whether or not dealing with cash costs money and causes hassles. It's how those costs compare to merchant fees and securing your POS, and how much leverage is created by a process not dictated by Visa and Mastercard. It's a complex and fragile equation that, in practice, ultimately boils down to accepting any form of payment that still has a decent enough market share ot be worth accepting.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    1. Re:The real question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is that shops are already completely beholden to the government starting but certainly not stopping with the taxman, their bank, suppliers, their accounting company, their payroll company, their payment processor, and oh yeah visa and mastercard too. A few angry customers -- in Entitlement America you'll always have at least a few -- are but a small blip on the radar by comparison. So for them it's just "hope nothing too bad happens", and costs of handling easily outweigh any benefits of cold hard cash in the entrepeneur's mind. "Cash" doesn't even mean the same to an accountant as it does to the rest of the world.

      So if certain parties, be it credit card processors, banks ("nfc"), the government ("war on cash" in certain countries), or whoever else, choose to put the kibosh on cash, shops are relatively easily swayed. The problem is that "consumers" (hate that word) aren't quite as controlled yet, so they'll much easier refrain from losing even more control over their lives. Because if you go completely cashless, they too are now completely beholden to many many many other parties that skim off fees for their services of holding on to your money. Economists love it of course, since no more bankruns, yay "cyprus template", and so on.

      What I want to know is why the millennials stateside prefer cash. What's the thinking? I know why I prefer cash, but I'm not a millennial.

    2. Re:The real question by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      There are lots of merchant banks that allow you to accept cards. For very low volume transactions, you can get a 3% rate. If you're putting a lot through, most will offer you a better deal and they will compete with each other for your business.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  8. Failing electronic system by Sigma+7 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've seen enough stories where the restaurant has a fault with their credit card system, and thus has an extremely long delay in processing them (assuming that they still get processed.)

    If there's any major failure, which will happen when an ice storm causes scattered outages across the city, the restaurant has no way to receive income. Either they accept cash, or they don't get the day's income.

    I've also went into a fast food restaurant which also had a cash register failure. They still did business using pen-and-paper, taking payments in cash, and thus didn't have to close down. Even if slightly slower or less reliable, it's as if the cashiers knew how to handle the situation.

    1. Re:Failing electronic system by mentil · · Score: 1

      They can use something like Square as a stopgap for those situations. There are dedicated cellular modems you can plug into your network to provide redundancy, as well.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    2. Re:Failing electronic system by guruevi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Even though that has been stated many times, VISA and MC both have clear requirements for merchants during outages and downtime. You should be able to take the card as long as your POS system has power - the transaction will process later, you can call their call-centers by phone to process a purchase, you can write the card number on a special form and then process it later (or remember back when they had those slide-things, they still have those for embossed cards).

      The problem is obviously your volume/throughput will suffer if you end up doing that and your employees need training. It's either that or you let your customers walk through with stuff unpaid, if there is a VISA/MC sticker and they don't WANT to process the card, VISA/MC says their customers have the right to treat it just like you wouldn't accept cash and the customers can actually complain to their CC company and they'll get a fine too.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    3. Re:Failing electronic system by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      That's assuming the towers are operational.

    4. Re:Failing electronic system by Sigma+7 · · Score: 2

      Yes, you could also try Google Wallet, Apple Pay, Bitcoin, or any other system. No number of alternative electronic systems protect against major outages. If Visa goes down for an entire country (which did happen), things like Square also stop working. If you have a disaster that destroys all electronic infrastructure as it happened with Puerto Rico, nothing electronic functions as a suitable backup.

      You never want your business to fail from just one point of failure, and in this case, it's the electronic payment network.

    5. Re:Failing electronic system by mentil · · Score: 2

      The point is that these outages are rare enough in certain places that it's cheaper overall to go cashless. Sure, if you live in a country where the electric grid is down 18 hours a day, cashless might not be for you (although if it's completely cellular-based, it might yet be). Where I live, I haven't lost electricity in a few years, and it was only for a few minutes when I did. Remember also that if you have a robbery, that might interrupt service, require you to count new tills before you can take anyone's cash, etc.
      I've seen a till be hung up for an hour while it's counted and recounted in front of a customer who insists they were shortchanged. Cash is no magic bullet with zero viscosity.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    6. Re:Failing electronic system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other day I walked into a store and was informed they could only accept cash at the moment since their internet just went down.

      This befuddled me a bit as I wondered if I even had any cash but also because I remember when stores didn't need the internet to accept credit card payments.

      Can't they just make an imprint of the chip in my card?

    7. Re:Failing electronic system by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      (or remember back when they had those slide-things, they still have those for embossed cards).

      Apparently, they are supposed to still have these and, if the card is embossed, use it if the chip and the mag stripe both fail. https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/... The merchant takes on less liability if they do this instead of just writing out the number.

    8. Re:Failing electronic system by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      Can't they just make an imprint of the chip in my card?

      No they can't "imprint the chip" but there are procedures for handling this. https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/... Start reading around page 25

    9. Re:Failing electronic system by houghi · · Score: 1

      Embossed cards are on their way out in Belgium. Some look like this hereThere is nothing embossed and not even a way to swipe. I have not seen a slider here in decades.

      And no, even if there is a VISA/MC you are NOT allowed to walk out with the store if they are unable or even unwilling to accept your card for whatever reason. That would be theft and will put you in jail.

      Not even talking about the fact that it might not be them who placed the sticker there, but e.g. you or a previous owner. There are two things that are working at the same time:
      1) The contract between the store owner and Visa/MC (or most likely a third party as Visa/MC seldom handle the transaction themselves). That one can be revoked if they do not accept their part of the contract. e.g. accepting people who want to pay with a card.
      2) The law. Where it is between you and the store where, if you buy an item, you must pay.

      I have gone into a store once (in 20 or so years) and when I wanted to pay, it did not work due to technical issues on side of the store. They told me before I walked out and I had to put back my items or pay cash. If you are in a restaurant and they do not inform you and suddenly the machine does not work anymore, it will depend form situation to situation.
      There are several things they can do and all these depend on the reason. Assume there machine suddenly fell into the sink.
      1) Pay with my bank app. They could accept payment over SEPA. They will have their money 3 days later. They have the risk that I cancel it as soon as I am outside.
      2) Pay with the bank over SEPA with immediate payment. They take the extra charge. Not smart as this only works during banking hours.
      3) Believe me that I will come back with the money. That could mean leaving behind something, like my passport, drivers license or my wife or kids.
      4) Escort me to a teller machine or any other place I could get cash

      As these happen so infrequently, it is not really an issue and will be handled if and when it happens.

      But again: you can not just walk away just because MC/VISA says so. They might not have a (direct) contract with them anyway and more important, they can not change the law. Walking out could get you a night in jail or worse.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    10. Re:Failing electronic system by johnw · · Score: 1

      (or remember back when they had those slide-things, they still have those for embossed cards)

      The last time I bought a new car, I tried to pay for it with my bank debit card. I had pre-authorised the transaction with my bank, as had the car dealership, but the electronic terminal simply refused to put it through.

      In the end they used their old-fashioned slide-thing, which seemed a bit weird but it worked.

    11. Re:Failing electronic system by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I've seen enough stories where the restaurant has a fault with their credit card system, and thus has an extremely long delay in processing them

      And you've seen these stories because they were news: i.e. they were unusual things. How many times have you actually seen it happen? My local shop had this happen a few weeks ago, but it was just after they upgraded their POS system (to one that really is a POS system, in all senses of the term) and it was the first time in a decade I'd seen a technical problem prevent a shop from accepting cards. The same problem also meant that they couldn't easily accept cash, because failure was in their POS system and not the bank network.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    12. Re:Failing electronic system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I had to put back my items or pay cash

      Not sure what you mean by "put back", but unless they are exceptionally kind and/or blameless you can be sure the best they can expect is for the goods the be left at the cash desk for THEM to put back.

      > Believe me that I will come back with the money. That could mean leaving behind something, like my passport, drivers license or my wife or kids.

      They don't have any legal right to keep anything. Sure, if the customer agrees...
      From the one time this happened: They asked everyone to write down their name (though they didn't even ask for any proof of identity, so I guess the only point would have been to give people an incentive to come back) and just hoped they'd come back and pay the next day.
      Admittedly it was a lunch restaurant in an area full of well-paid employees, so that might not work everywhere.
      But I am pretty sure you'd do fine with that strategy in most places (as long as it's a fixed price or the customers some other way can remember what they owe you).

    13. Re:Failing electronic system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some single points of failure are sufficiently rare, and sufficiently expensive enough to mitigate against that it can be better to just take the loss in that instance, or insure against the loss for that point of failure. It is up to the business to do the sums and decide which is the better option.

    14. Re:Failing electronic system by bobbutts · · Score: 1

      If there's any connection to the internet, blockchain based currencies will still work. They don't rely on a centralized service like the CC processors.

    15. Re: Failing electronic system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of those devices work over GSM. A local internet connection is not required.

    16. Re:Failing electronic system by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      How many times have you actually seen it happen?

      As I stated in my original post, I've seen it happen once. The fast food cashiers still knew how to handle cash, and it didn't hit the news because it wasn't newsworthy to actually appear on the news. "Breaking news: Some random fast food location had trouble with its PoS PoS, but was still able to conduct business."

      For major things, like the bank network going down or Puerto Rico suffering from Hurricane Maria, that will hit the news because it has major consequences.

  9. Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If they make that clear before the fact, I walk out.
    If they only make that clear when I'm ready to pay, I tip a penny. In cash.

    Screw businesses that don't care about customers' privacy and anonymity.

    1. Re:Depends... by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      I don't think big brother cares how many times you eat at Burger King and Chipotle. Do you also wear a disguise in public?

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    2. Re:Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't want to live in a society where our location is tracked 24/7/365 whenever we buy food, gas, or other necessities. Cash = the ability for people to go off the grid and maintain their privacy.

      I don't want to do business with anyone who's doing their part to erode that ability. Thus, I'll vote with my cash and pay cash.

      It's not that I personally care about it, but I want to live in a world where people can run away and drop out of sight. It's an important safety valve against authoritarianism.

    3. Re:Depends... by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard

      Murray doesn't know many loan sharks.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re: Depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesnâ(TM)t matter. Once you give up privacy you will never get it back. Are people really this stupid, I mean we have just lived through it for the last two decades. Quit trading privacy for convenience or shiny free stuff.

    5. Re:Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      As far as "Big Brother" caring, what if hellth insurance companies (misspelling deliberate) start buying purchase data from credit card companies and restaurants? Eat at Burger King more than 2x last month? Cha-ching! Cha-ching! "Unhealthy diet surcharge."

      Don't underestimate the ability of the corporatist state to control people's lives. Having all purchases tracked, tabulated, and stuck in a database increases that ability.

    6. Re:Depends... by mentil · · Score: 1

      Screw businesses that don't care about customers' privacy and anonymity.

      You can use only stolen credit cards. Problem solved.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    7. Re:Depends... by mentil · · Score: 1

      Actually, I'd like a Google Maps hack showing everyone nearby who has eaten at Chipotle in the last 3 days (ok who am I kidding, 36 hours) so I can stay way the hell away.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    8. Re:Depends... by ArchieBunker · · Score: 0

      Do you have a cell phone? Are all your utilities paid in cash? Does your employer pay you in cash? Again nobody cares if you buy fast food or strippers with a card.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    9. Re:Depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I guess you don't want to live. You'd have to find an abandoned cabin in the hills or build one without permission on property that isn't yours that is completely off grid, stay there, and make sure nobody sees you for the rest of your life to avoid being tracked today.

    10. Re:Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Where one lives is a matter of public record (property ownership record). Where one goes outside their home or travels to is not, but it will be if cash is done away with.

      As far as a cell phone, I often don't carry mine when I leave the house, or leave it turned off/in airplane mode.

      And yes, there are people (mainly illegal immigrants) that pay rent, get paid, basically do everything in cash. I'm thankful to them for maintaining the cash economy in the US, thus maintaining some small sliver of anonymity and privacy for the rest of us.

    11. Re:Depends... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Says the person with a registered account on Slashdot.

    12. Re:Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Not really. I can go out today without carrying a cell phone and pay cash for virtually anything. My movements outside my home may be filmed, but in the absence of a crime, won't be correlated with an identity. On the other hand, if cash goes away, there will be a hard record that John Q. Smith of 125 Main St. bought lunch at this location, bought gas there, had a drink here after work, buys alcohol 5x per week, frequented this marijuana dispensary, etc. A boon for divorce lawyers, if nothing else.

    13. Re:Depends... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      You can easily find them by their smell, and sometimes by their frequency of hospital ER visits for e. coli infections.

    14. Re:Depends... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      It's not like they check your ID or anything these days.

    15. Re:Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      My choice to set up or delete the account. It's not required to live, unlike food or groceries.

    16. Re: Depends... by dhjdhj · · Score: 1

      Except for the morality police...you know, the religious nuts who consider that they (through their voting) do actually have the right to control what you are allowed to do.

    17. Re:Depends... by Falos · · Score: 1

      I don't think big brother cares
      The device you sent that with is called a computer.

      It isn't limited by feelings.

    18. Re:Depends... by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Or mobsters. It's not personal, it's business....

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    19. Re: Depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you own a cellphone and then not bring it anywhere!? You know, the portable wireless communication device. Just like being a contrarian donâ(TM)t you. Chop your own nose off to prove a point that only makes sense in... youâ(TM)re own head.

    20. Re:Depends... by mentil · · Score: 1

      The merchant agreement actually forbids that. They can only check signatures. Oh wait, they got rid of signatures, too...

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    21. Re:Depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry but that is absolute bullshit in this day and age with CCTV, cell and sat tracking etc etc, paying in cash just makes you stick out and easier to track. If you want to live without being tracked you need to disappear off the map and be self sufficient for everything, cash is makes you just as visible as putting a flashing red light above your head.

    22. Re:Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Not in a city where 10-20% of the residents are illegal immigrants or otherwise unbanked. I fit right in.

    23. Re: Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Because having "disconnected" time to think and enjoy the world is fun. I don't WANT to be reachable 24/7/365 -- I need alone time away from technology and other people.

    24. Re: Depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Millineals have never known a time when they were unreachable. Those of us who are older remember a time when if an important call was expected, you waited by the phone or you hadca hardware stand alone answering machine plugged into your line.

      It is not a disasterous communications breakdown to be unreachable by phone.

    25. Re:Depends... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Merchants can choose whether or not to accept signatures. But yeah, all the security associated with cards is slowly evaporating.

    26. Re:Depends... by cyn1c77 · · Score: 1

      I don't want to live in a society where our location is tracked 24/7/365 whenever we buy food, gas, or other necessities. Cash = the ability for people to go off the grid and maintain their privacy.

      I don't want to do business with anyone who's doing their part to erode that ability. Thus, I'll vote with my cash and pay cash.

      It's not that I personally care about it, but I want to live in a world where people can run away and drop out of sight. It's an important safety valve against authoritarianism.

      How do you get your cash? From a bank ATM? That tracks you?

      If you really want to go incognito, get a fake credit identity and burner phone to start playing with the big boys.

      Using cash and not having a cell phone actually makes you stand out like a sore thumb nowadays.

    27. Re:Depends... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      using the ATM tracks my location once a week or so, not hourly or daily. using cash is remarkably common in a city (thankfully) with quite a few illegal immigrants and a lot of cash only/credit minimum businesses. using cash makes me seem blue collar, doesn't stick out at all.

    28. Re:Depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No-one prevents you from growing your own food if you don't want to take part of society.

      There are even sub-communities that have taken this to the extreme.
      The Amish are a great example of not trusting the rest of society and creating one of their own.
      While they differ in what they allow or not, a common theme is to not be reliant on things they cannot create themselves.
      Some communities have a car and access to the telephone grid, they just make sure that they can survive just fine if those were to break down.

      Literally the libertarians dream world, except that they also want the conveniences of society that the Amish doesn't provide.

    29. Re:Depends... by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      It's not that I personally care about it, but I want to live in a world where people can run away and drop out of sight. It's an important safety valve against authoritarianism.

      I would like that too, but good luck with that. You can't legally work without identifying yourself and your employer sending data about you to the federal government. That ship has sailed.

    30. Re:Depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You dumb-ass. It doesn't matter what the data is. Collecting everything there is to know about you is what Big Brother does. The more information they have about you the better they can target your ads, tattle on you to your employer and your health insurance company, and profile you for the government. Trivializing the importance of any particular datum doesn't progress this conversation or serve any purpose.

      Of course Big Brother cares about where you eat and how often you eat there. That's the very product they sell. It's their bread and butter, and the more of it they have the more money they make off of you without your knowledge or consent. In the world of mass surveillance, it quantity over quality.

      And YES. If you live in a large city with an astronomical number of cameras like London, you may very well enhance your privacy and improve your life by wearing disguises in public.

  10. Reasons... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Other reasons for this: (1) Classism. "We don't want poor or immigrant customers who don't have a credit card or check card. We cater to millennial hipsters only." Good to know. (2) Bribery. There was an article last year about a major credit card company paying businesses $10,000 to go cashless. Good on Chicago for thinking about regulating this and Massachusetts for actually regulating cashfree businesses out of existence. Nice to see that some jurisdictions actually stand up for their constituents' privacy.

    1. Re:Reasons... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      I think you're making up sound bites. reality is that you can buy a major credit card companies gift card for $5 and up and it works like a credit card. oh look, poor people can go cashless too. guess you'll have to go back to twitter for more ideas on something to whine about

    2. Re:Reasons... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Why should you have to go through an additional fuckin step if you're poor or wish to maintain your privacy?

    3. Re:Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should you have to go through an additional fuckin step if you're poor or wish to maintain your privacy?

      That's what being poor means - everything except dying is harder

    4. Re:Reasons... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      It's the same thing as demanding a jacket/classy attire to enter certain restaurants. Yeah, they won't allow homeless people in.

      Also, poor people generally have EBT cards which they can use and if you cater to millennial hipsters, you generally aren't catering to the poor anyway, you're selling $35 rolls of sushi.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re:Reasons... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Exactly why I applaud MA and Chicago for making poor and/or privacy-conscious people's lives slightly easier. Kudos!

    6. Re:Reasons... by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      You seem to be the only person concerned about this. Was your aluminum foil purchased with cash as well?

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    7. Re:Reasons... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Other reasons for this: (1) Classism. "We don't want poor or immigrant customers who don't have a credit card or check card. We cater to millennial hipsters only."

      Except the data shows those "millennial hipsters" prefer paying in cash. I mean, it's right in the summary.

      "For starters, upscale Millennials -- among the most coveted of diners because of their youth and affluence -- prefer to pay in cash, according to Bankrate.com data. "

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re:Reasons... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Prepaid cards often have setup fees and other pitfalls accompanied with them. It's not exactly a 1:1 cash to card transfer, and those fees predominantly hit people who have less money to begin with.

    9. Re:Reasons... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Plenty of people are concerned about the long-term effects of a cashless society... Even the Swedes are getting "red pilled" about the issue.

    10. Re:Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to be the only person shilling against it.

      Unless ArchieBunker is a shared account.

    11. Re:Reasons... by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      Except the data shows those "millennial hipsters" prefer paying in cash. I mean, it's right in the summary.

      I would've assumed it would be aging Boomers and Gen-X'ers who would be clinging to their cash. It's so bizarre that the most digitally connected generation, is using the most archaic form of payment.

      Though, I guess I can't be too shocked - I still get cashiers looking at me like I'm using voodoo magic when I use Apple pay.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    12. Re:Reasons... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Don't know -- a lot of millennials came of age during the credit/foreclosure bust of 2007-2010. Might have been a hard lesson to see their parents lose their home due to credit over-extension.

    13. Re:Reasons... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      I would've assumed it would be aging Boomers and Gen-X'ers who would be clinging to their cash. It's so bizarre that the most digitally connected generation, is using the most archaic form of payment.

      Though, I guess I can't be too shocked - I still get cashiers looking at me like I'm using voodoo magic when I use Apple pay.

      Technology is a means to an end not an end on to itself.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
      rm -rf AS32934

    14. Re:Reasons... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      They also have requirements for identification at point of purchase. I don't know whether those are enforced or not, though.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    15. Re: Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hardly hear anything about Apple Pay anymore. Didn't it go out of business like iAds, or has it just not been long enough yet?

    16. Re:Reasons... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I would've assumed it would be aging Boomers and Gen-X'ers who would be clinging to their cash.

      Instead they are drowning in their credit card debt.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    17. Re:Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your name ArchieBunker makes me suppose you are just trolling and pretending to be ignorant, but on the off chance you actually believe that b0s0z0ku is the only person concerned about this:

      b0s0z0ku is not the only person concerned about this. I also don't want a cashless society and wouldn't eat in a cashless restaurant. And of course there are many others who also don't like the idea.

    18. Re:Reasons... by houghi · · Score: 1

      Where I live, the poor immigrant can and will have a bank account and thus a debit card. Could be that he is not allowed to use it if there is no money on the account. I know rich people who have that enabled on their card as well.
      As far as I know each country in Europe has at least one financial institution that can not refuse to open a bank account, no matter how poor they are. That does not mean they are allowed any credit, just that they are allowed to have a bank account, so they can pay bills. In Belgium that would be at the post office.

      So income is not an issue. It is a choice.

      So the problem seems to be is that those people are unable (not unwilling) to get a card. Why not solve that problem. You can still refuse cashless when it comes to people who are unwilling, regardless if they are poor or rich, immigrant or not.

      Next to that is the privacy issue. In Belgium the CC company is not allowed to analyze the expenditure and a lot more rules concerning privacy.

      What you might be referring to would be the illegal immigrant. That is a whole different situation.

      So why not address the real issue: the lack of privacy. That would solve a lot more problems than just the "cashless or not" issue as that does not seem to be the problem.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    19. Re:Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA where it says quite clearly that millennials are among those least likely to have a card.

    20. Re:Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other reasons for this:
      (1) Classism. "We don't want poor or immigrant customers who don't have a credit card or check card. We cater to millennial hipsters only." Good to know.

      You think a immigrant worker have worse economy than a millennial?
      A gen X-er might have a credit card that isn't maxed out, but if you want a customer base with actual money you cater to boomers.

    21. Re:Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prepaid cards often have setup fees and other pitfalls accompanied with them. It's not exactly a 1:1 cash to card transfer, and those fees predominantly hit people who have less money to begin with.

      Cash also has fees (check cashing and ATM) and other pitfalls (if you lose it, it's gone; no protection against theft). And the fees and pitfalls are more likely to hit those who have less money to begin with.

    22. Re:Reasons... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      oh, "regular" people get their credit cards easier? having to have proof of income, etc.

      you have no point

    23. Re:Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > As far as I know each country in Europe has at least one financial institution that can not refuse to open a bank account

      That is a relatively new thing though. I believe in Germany ALL banks have to offer a bank account to everyone. There was some discussion around fees etc though, I don't remember what happened to that part.

    24. Re:Reasons... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      nope, you only need cash. I've bought them for coworkers for gifts which is their main use. what purpose does ID serve when the buyer isn't the user?

      really, you're making stuff up that isn't true. let's stick with facts

    25. Re:Reasons... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      When did I talk about requiring ID for cc gift cards? You might be replying to the wrong post, or you're reading things that aren't there.

    26. Re:Reasons... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      no setup fees, you can buy a $25 gift credit card for $25 cash. I've done it.

      losing cash has the same problem as no theft protection. no loss for the poor, quit making up things to whine about, there are none. Twitter SWJ retard mentality doesn't stand up to logic.

    27. Re:Reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So now determining how your purchases are being tracked is being paranoid?
      Please, right now, I want to know everywhere you went this year, and everyone you interacted with. I also want to know your bank account balances.
      why not, if you've got nothing to hide...

  11. Cash is King by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like privacy, people wonâ(TM)t realize how important cash is until they give it up. Once cash is gone, everything you purchase is tracked.

    1. Re: Cash is King by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This almost reads like a propaganda piece. And no mention of bitcoin, if going cashless then why not accept anonymous bitcoin as well?

  12. Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by raymorris · · Score: 1, Insightful

    > They can require payment up front in bitcakes or credit corns BEFORE serving you.

    > By the time you pay your check you are paying off a debt.
    > They can't refuse payment of that debt in cash.

    Exactly. Before giving you the food they can say "we're not going to give you food until you give us a card.". Afterwards, if they don't like your payment offer, what can they do? They could sue you - and you could pay the judgement in cash :) The judge would be annoyed with them, so you'd be sure to countersue for wasting your time with a frivolous suit. The judge would probably enjoy having them pay YOU since they were being dumbasses.

    1. Re:Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Informative

      Afterwards, if they don't like your payment offer, what can they do? They could sue you - and you could pay the judgement in cash :)

      They sue you. You cite the legal tender laws. They lose.

      The law, as I understand it, is this:
        - You agree to a purchase denominated in dollars.
        - They deliver on their side, creating a debt on your side.
        - You offer payment in Federal Reserve Notes.
        - They either:
                1) Accept the payment, settling the debt.
                2) Refuse the payment. The debt is cancelled because they refused to accept payment in Federal Reserve Notes.

      This we settled (with some governmental violence against people who didn't want to accept FRNs) about a century ago, when FRNs were first introduced. Lots of people who expected payment in real gold and silver coins, made of amounts of valuable metal approximating their face value, or paper notes giving a government promise of on-demand exchange for the equivalent value in silver, didn't want to take bank-generated paper money backed by nothing but the government's promise to make people accept it. So the Federal Government had to force a bunch of people to accept it until they gave up and played along.

      The Federal Government has a strong incentive to keep enforcing the rule. Otherwise the system (which lets them skirt constitutional prohibitions and print fiat currency by proxy) falls apart, along with the economy built around it.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    2. Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by dskoll · · Score: 4, Informative

      https://www.federalreserve.gov... A private business does not have to accept cash, unless a State law exists specifying that.

    3. Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why is paying for a resturaunt check "payment for service" and not "offer of payment of debt to a creditor"?

    4. Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.federalreserve.gov...

      A private business does not have to accept cash, unless a State law exists specifying that.

      If you are at a restaurant and have already bought and eaten your meal, that means you are in debt to the restaurant and cash must be a valid method of repayment. The instance in which a private business doesn't have to accept cash is if you have to pay upfront, like you would at fast food or a supermarket. In that case the business can refuse the sale unless you paid in their preferred method of cash/credit/bitcoins/handjobs/kitten memes.

    5. Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes but nothing says cash has to be the cheapest form of payment, the simple method around this for them is Cash attracts a 50% service surcharge.

    6. Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by TristanWibberley · · Score: 1

      No. If you presented the cash the judge would order that you had tendered payment as per the statutes and that the restaurant had gifted the cash back to you.

    7. Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All that this website states is in effect there is "no mandate to accept cash". Since Federal Reserve notes state by law that such notes are "Legal Tender for All Debts Public and Private, the Federal Reserve website is telling you that in such circumstances when a business refuses to accept cash, they are free to waive the debt you owe them. They have no mandate to accept cash, which gives them the right to refuse to payment in cash. However, once offered cash and they refuse to accept it, current law effectively permits you the payer to accept the fact that the restaurant has just agreed to cancel your debt since they are in effect refusing to accept payment. The key word is "ALL" debts. Federal Reserve websites don't get to make laws, just enforce them to the fullest extent of the law. They can't force a restaurant not to give you a free meal if they want to.

    8. Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt that would go with consumer protection laws on price labelling.
      They could mark up all food by 50% and then offer credit card payers a 33% rebate, but that probably wouldn't get them more customers.

    9. Re:Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      They deliver on their side, creating a debt on your side

      False. The financial definition of debt is exclusive to the action of borrowing. Just because you have a contractual obligation to pay created by a sale doesn't mean you're in debt.

      All they can do is go to court and sue you for failure to fulfil your side of the purchasing contract.

  13. If cash were required, I couldn't go there by RhettLivingston · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I hate it when I get cash because I don't have an easy way to get rid of it. I bank with an online bank and have no means of depositing it. I have no cash in my wallet or coins in my pocket and haven't in ages. If forced to take change for some reason, I just tell the cashier to apply it to the next person's bill.

    I've not seen a business that was cash only in years, but if one were, I wouldn't consider patronizing them.

    1. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bank with a community bank/credit union; they'd be happy to take your deposits. Many have deals that allow you to use different banks' ATMs for free, so you can deposit and withdraw as needed.

      Or just spend the cash the next time you buy groceries or whatever, what's the issue. You have to buy food, gas, etc at some point, right?

    2. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      I hate it when I get cash because I don't have an easy way to get rid of it

      You don't have easy access to recycling bins or trash cans where you live?

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    3. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      I hate it when I get cash because I don't have an easy way to get rid of it.

      You'd never know this was a technology site, with all the luddites bellyaching over the possibility of businesses not accepting greenbacks. Personally, I find the inverse far more frustrating: when a business will only accept payment in cash. Though, with the advent of Square and PayPal, a business which truly accepts only cash has become rare indeed.

      Personally, I find cash to be too limiting. You can't spend it online, you have to manually track your purchases, you have to verify that you've been given correct change, it can be easily lost/stolen, and it offers no buyer protection. Unless you're tinfoil-hat-level paranoid about "big brother" tracking you, there's no good reason to use cash.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    4. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by RhettLivingston · · Score: 1

      I guess that's what giving it to the person behind me is, recycling.

    5. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      For offline purchases, cash is great. Unless you're completely innumerate (unlikely in the Slashdot crowd), correct change is easy to verify. You can even pay them in a way that allows change in whole dollars or at least quarters.

      Once the transaction is done, it's done. No entering tip amounts incorrectly by on-purpose accident, so you get billed $20 more on your credit card statement than you intended to pay at the restaurant.

      You also know exactly how much you're spending -- the physical indicator of spending is nice, and spending money hurts a bit. As it should.

    6. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      Unless you're completely innumerate (unlikely in the Slashdot crowd), correct change is easy to verify.

      Would you rather be in a checkout line of people who are going to tap their NFC card/cellphone against a reader, grab their receipt, and leave, or stand there and count their change? Start-to-finish, cash transactions just take longer. It may not inconvenience you, but it might be inconveniencing the people waiting on you.

      so you get billed $20 more on your credit card statement than you intended to pay at the restaurant.

      While I'm not discounting the possibility of that happening, I've personally never experienced it. I have, however, on numerous occasions been shortchanged by servers who weren't paying attention, when paying in cash. If I have the option, I'll use a restaurant's smartphone app to pay the check (which completes the total + tip purchase as a single transaction).

      You also know exactly how much you're spending

      I can log into my bank and know what I'm spending on my debit card. Unless I was keeping a ledger, cash just disappears and I'm left wondering what happened to it. It's far easier to look at my purchase history and think "Gee, perhaps I'm spending a bit too much on sushi", rather than look at my empty wallet and assume "High gas prices. Has to be. There's no way I eat that much sushi!"

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    7. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      It's technically illegal to deface or destroy money.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    8. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I really don't care either way about the line. I'll wait an extra 15 seconds to keep my privacy. If other people can't, they need to chill and toke a J.

      Smartphone app? Restaurant? I don't go to the kind of restaurants that are likely to have an app (national chains).

      For me, it's a lot more painful to pull out cash than sign a check. As it should me. Spending money should hurt.

    9. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was in line behind somebody the other day who had enabled two factor on his card. Couldn't get it to work, but didn't give up for about two minutes. And, my cash transactions have always been faster than when somebody has used a chip card.

    10. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by houghi · · Score: 1

      Do not come to Belgium then, because as a tourist you will not be able to go to many cafe's and that is part of why you should come to Belgium.
      Also not Spain. Many cafe's I have seen do not have anything but cash.
      Glass of wine where I go (Galicia) is around 1 EUR.

      About the coins: the people like getting free money. Just buy something for 1 EUR and give them the smallest money in paper, which is 5 EUR and just walk away. They will be confused, but hardly force the money on you.

      I also bank online. With the opening hours for banks there really is no other way. I even have a bank in another country and have no issues to get the money where I live as I have a debit card and can go to an Automatic ATM Machine.
      There are plenty of ATM's wherever I go to get money from the wall for free. Sometimes, when I am in a different country, I get a warning that I would need to pay a fee. I walk to the next place and get it for free there.

      So the issue seems to be that either your online bank does not give you a debit card or you need to pay if you take money from the ATM.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    11. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by skids · · Score: 1

      Would you rather be in a checkout line of people who are going to tap their NFC card/cellphone against a reader, grab their receipt, and leave

      You forgot the "wait 15-30 seconds while the PoS system does it's thing". Especially the chip cards slow things down. With an experienced cashier and and experienced non-senescent cash customer, cash is actually really fast.

      Now, there might be a clear advantage if they could tie the customer loyalty cards in so we didn't have to wait for the assholes in front of us to type in their phone number because they never carry that card (my gut tells me these must be the very same people who get bent out of shape about 1 extra item in the express lane taking 0.5 seconds extra to scan.) Since the CC-everywhere users obviously do not care for their privacy anyway, that shouldn't be a problem for them.

    12. Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The issue isn't getting cash out of the bank - it's putting cash into the bank. And, I don't like having to carry it. Most who do use an old-fashioned wallet. I just use a small card holder. It will be nice when everything supports my phone or watch and I can get rid of the cardholder too.

  14. I AM Canadian! by camperdave · · Score: 5, Funny

    Restaurant owners say ordering is faster from customers who slap down plastic instead of dollars...

    I am Canadian. When I slap down money, it IS plastic.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:I AM Canadian! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, this article is almost confusing. As a Canadian I don't think it's actually a legal option to go cashless, but I can say with certainty that restaurants are handling substantially less cash today than several years ago, while making as much or more money. I almost always pay by debit, and damn near everyone younger than me uses debit for meals. Drinks are a bit different as they are often paying per drink, not running a tab for the evening, and the servers don't each have their own machines. Many drinking establishments have VLTs which only accept cash right now as well. That'll be changing in the next couple of years though in all probability.

    2. Re:I AM Canadian! by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Your Loonies and Toonies, too, eh?

    3. Re:I AM Canadian! by dohzer · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the polymer note club, Canada! ;)
      Do you guys have a tipping system like the US?

    4. Re:I AM Canadian! by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Your Loonies and Toonies, too, eh?

      I honestly cant see why not in the future. The main reasons we stick with metals is that they're harder to forge (as in both metallurgy and fraud) and tradition (we've always had metal coins). However introducing a wireless induction induction loop with a chip could be a better anti-fraud system. We'd probably still coat them in a metallic coating for aesthetics.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  15. So what's the plan by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 4, Interesting

    when dinner is finished, you hand your card to the wait staff and it's denied ?

    I'm sorry, I don't have another card. Do you take cash ?

    I prefer to use cash because every card compromise I've ever had ( including the latest chip cards ) have been wait staff at restaurants who simply copied what they needed from my card.

    ( They do it with gift cards too so use low denomination varieties so it gets used up in one go )

    I don't have these issues with cash.

    1. Re:So what's the plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What happens if the bill is more than the cash in your wallet? Same argument.

    2. Re:So what's the plan by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Using my watch for payment has kind of changed how I look at small transactions with the credit card. No pesky need to sign anything. I just hope the US catches up on contactless/ApplePay ubiquity like the rest of the world.

      For businesses, just keep one cash drawer active rather than two or three. Good contingency.

    3. Re:So what's the plan by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      when dinner is finished, you hand your card to the wait staff and it's denied ?

      You run out of the restaurant as fast as you can. Then you get your broke ass to Walmart and buy a box of ramen, because your finances are seriously screwed if you're dining out with a maxed out credit card.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    4. Re:So what's the plan by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Depends what's going on with the card -- it could be "maxed out" due to fraud or other issues.

    5. Re:So what's the plan by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      it could be "maxed out" due to fraud or other issues.

      I'd imagine most reputable banks will try to call if they suspect unusual activity on the card. I actually experienced this the first time I went on a business trip with a new AmEx card. My phone started ringing even before the waiter came back to tell me the card was declined. Told 'em the transaction was authorized, and told the waiter to go ahead and run it again.

      I suppose without a cell phone that would've been a frustrating experience, but anyone living without a cell phone in an era devoid of payphones probably is used to being on the path of most resistance, by now.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    6. Re:So what's the plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That your system involves handing over your single factor auth token to a below-minimum wage server is probably part of the problem.

      A proper chip+pin system never has the card leave your hand, and ensures that 2FA is used for anything >£30. If you are foolish enough to lose your card (which admittedly I do on the reg), someone could use it to make an online purchase (which of course can't use 2FA), but increasingly merchants are employing "Verified By VISA/MC/Bank" systems to defeat that. It isn't universal though, so letting someone else have your card is still a terrible plan.

      Interestingly a lot of casual food places (bars, cafes etc) require payment up front these days, with more formal restaurants still using the "pay on exit" model. I much prefer pay up front, as it saves time, especially with a big group (you just each order what you want and boop your card; no arguing about who had a starter or whatever).

      I carry cash for the odd independent shop/market stall that don't take cash, charity donations and paying individuals small sums (e.g. I ask Jane to grab my a coffee when she goes out at lunch); everything else uses cards. I do wish that traders didn't get taken for such a high percentage by processors, but my low-level misgivings about VISA+co's rent-seeking are outweighed by my moderate desire not to have to deal with change.

    7. Re:So what's the plan by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Translation: I'm too Kentishly lazy to be arsed to deal with change, and screw the small merchants/traders.

    8. Re:So what's the plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what's the plan when dinner is finished, you hand your card to the wait staff and it's denied ?
      I'm sorry, I don't have another card. Do you take cash ?

      That's different from what's being changed.

      In your example, providing food and service in advance of payment, that is called a "debt"
      This is the bit on the cash mentioned in the summary. Cash must be accepted for any and all debts.

      Legally speaking, they don't have to accept cash for a debt, but upon rejection of the cash payment, the debt is now paid in full and you owe nothing further.

      But the discussion is on not accepting cash for a service in advance.
      Think fast food, where you make your payment and then they serve your food.

      Requiring payment in advance is NOT a debt, it is something you agree to as terms of payment.
      In this case one doesn't legally need to accept cash. If the payment terms are not made (payment in whatever non-cash form, presumably a credit card) then there is no contract made, and they simply don't provide what you haven't agreed to pay for.

      The part about the federal reserve rules in the summary also specifically refers to contracts and not debt. One can make a contract requiring all sorts of silly things, strictly speaking anything that isn't actually illegal, and can refuse you service if you don't agree.

      They can refuse cash on Thursdays except for nickles, and refuse credit cards on Saturdays, require you to bring a cat with you, and that you wear a polka dotted shirt before providing service, and all of that is legal.

      But verbally agreeing to provide service in advance of payment, without a written contract otherwise (which I've never heard of a restaurant requiring) is placing you in debt to them.
      Offering cash to pay that debt can not be refused. They either must accept the cash for that debt, or else there is no longer a debt and they just don't get paid at all.

    9. Re:So what's the plan by houghi · · Score: 1

      That will be 99.99999% of the cases and that is rounded down. The indication on the screen will not always give you the correct reason why it has been declined. Sometimes it will not be an issue and can be solved somehow. You know, like adults.
      That is unless you start yelling and insisting and what not. Then, most likely, the police will come and they will often side with the owner. You took goods, you must pay and we do not trust you to leave the store and come back, so you come with us for the night and we solve this tomorrow. In most cases suddenly a solution will present itself.

      I once had an issue where I pumped gas, went in to pay and neither my VISA, nor MC nor debit card worked. Debit was times wrong PIN. CC was an issue with my bank. Easily solved. I left my ID there and went back a few hours later when the issue with all my cards was solved.

      The problem was on my side. Could have been solved the same way if it where on their side. Being polite and understanding for each other solved this. I even went out of the line when another person came and not stress out the employee and others by standing in front of him and forcing him to deal with my situation and for him that would mean calling the police, so they can deal with it and he can handle the other customers.

      Sometimes it is nice to pretend to be human.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    10. Re:So what's the plan by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      The dollar shall be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private, right?

      So if your credit card fails and they refuse to take cash as a payment, they are not entitled to any payment, and your meal is free?

    11. Re:So what's the plan by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I prefer to use cash because every card compromise I've ever had ( including the latest chip cards ) have been wait staff at restaurants who simply copied what they needed from my card.

      You could just join the 21st century. There's no reason to hand your card to the staff. There's also very little they can do without your pin number or your password (online banking payment verification systems).

    12. Re:So what's the plan by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      So, you think when you make an online purchase withing a creditcard you need more than the card number, the 3 digit verification numberon the back, and the name printed on the card?

      Internesting.. Because thats all I use.

      Never ever EVER let someone take away your card.Why would you, too lazy to stand up? Too 'important'? hmmmm.....

    13. Re:So what's the plan by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I don't think. I know. I use my credit card online all the time. Doing so redirects to a Mastercard site which then requries me to enter a verification password (either a passphrase I chose, or 2FA).

      Also it's interesting that you say it's an issue of lazyness. I don't think I've eaten anywhere in the past 2 years where the credit card machine wasn't brought to me. I have considered wireless machines basically standard since turn of the century with the old ones starting to be phased out some 20 years ago.

  16. New fees for credit cards by n0w0rries · · Score: 1

    Take away the banks fees for dealing with cash, and they'll just raise other fees to compensate.

    It's all about tracking your every expense and earning.

  17. Nope by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    I shouldn't have to go through a credit card company to make purchases.

    1. Re:Nope by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Do you shop online at all?

  18. when the system goes down you just bill servers by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1, Insightful

    when the system goes down you just bill the servers for the free food or do you lock in diners for hours waiting for the card system to go back up?

  19. make the server pay for it! by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    make the server pay for it!

  20. Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

    Probably go back to the old imprint-type credit card machines. Cha-chunk. Cha-chunk. Sign at the X. And you hope everyone's card turns out to be valid after the system comes back up.

  21. good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the only by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the only place to get health coverage for some.

  22. Receipts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A lot of these places don't print receipts. They either want to email you the receipt or not give you one at all. I don't want to give my email to another business, but I do want my receipt.

    1. Re:Receipts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      A lot of these places don't print receipts. They either want to email you the receipt or not give you one at all. I don't want to give my email to another business, but I do want my receipt.

      Do what I do - Get an email service that does Catchall addresses.
      Then when you go to Bob's Fine Eatery, give them the email address Bob'sFineEatery@yourdomain.com.
      The address you set up to receive all anonymous emails will get that receipt, as well as any spam generated.
      Why bother? Because when you get spam from Bob'sFineEatery@yourdomain.com, you know EXACTLY which asshole sold your email address to the spammers.

    2. Re: Receipts by TristanWibberley · · Score: 0

      I'd be tempted to tender payment for my debt in any form that the law of the land states is a legal tender. If the restaurant refuses then my debt is already paid and the refused money is returned to me as a gift. This is true regardless of any signposts in the restaurant or of any false legal advice given by the waiting staff or manager.

    3. Re: Receipts by reanjr · · Score: 1

      I'd pretty much go to one of these restaurants every day if any of them were dumb enough to open in my neighborhood.

    4. Re: Receipts by NormalVisual · · Score: 2

      I'd be tempted to tender payment for my debt in any form that the law of the land states is a legal tender. If the restaurant refuses then my debt is already paid and the refused money is returned to me as a gift.

      I'd suggest you research that idea a bit more before you find yourself having a problem.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    5. Re:Receipts by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Good suggestion, except don't use Bob'sFineEatery as the username. As Bruce Schneier said, if you give him schneier@example.com, he can probably guess the email that you use for Amazon. Instead, generate either a random ID and store who you've given it to, or use some term that's easy to map back to the original name but isn't obviously tied to it.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re: Receipts by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      You aren't making the distinction between merchandise/services and debt. When you go to the grocery store and the store refuses to accept your cash, then you simply walk out without your merchandise and the store keeps your merchandise for the next customer. With the typical restaurant model, when you eat your food and then pay at the end, you have created a debt. If the restaurant refuses your cash payment, you can't walk out of there without the food (at least not in a way that would allow them to serve it to the next customer). In that case, you have created a debt. If the restaurant refused your cash payment, then you could very well walk out not owing anything, regardless of any signs they may have posted.

      Of course, the way for the restaurant to deal with this is to simply have the customer pay up front. You order your food, pay at that time. Then they cook the order and serve your food. At the end they can bring your your receipt for you to write in your tip (I'd be curious if the cashless restaurant would refuse a cash tip). If you want to add to your order, I'm unsure if the system allows them to charge more than the additional authorized amount. Behind the scenes, I don't know how the auth/payment mechanisms work. Clearly a restaurant can add in the tip as they currently do. I'm not sure if that mechanism is designed purely for tips (and thus they would have to lie and say the additional amount was a tip instead of extra food) or if it can be used to add additional food. Of course the could also take the gas station method of authorizing a higher amount up front and then adjusting to your actual purchase amount.

    7. Re: Receipts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A tip is considered a payment to the worker/waiter and not to the restaurant so the business would have no sway over that part of the transaction and very few workers would turn away a tip of any kind.

    8. Re: Receipts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but would they be able to provide change?

    9. Re: Receipts by orlanz · · Score: 1

      I would argue that if there was clear signage, you entered into a good faith contract when you sat down and ordered. The expectation is that you had means to pay when you ordered.

      You can't just change the terms of the contract after the fact. Imagine if you changed the good faith contract's implied timely terms."I will come back and pay you next week?" won't work.

      Also, since you changed the terms, the restaurant can too. Can they not Uber your cash payment to their bank and charge you the service cost?

    10. Re: Receipts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What terms? What contracts?

    11. Re:Receipts by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      I use the + feature of email addresses on a secondary email account, like someguy+bobsfineats@example.com. The trick is to have a rule that anything *without* a plus gets discarded. You get your receipt, and when your email is re-sold to a mailing list you either know exactly who did it (since the + will still be there) and can optionally add a new filter, or if they stripped the + out, you never even see the unsolicited mail.

    12. Re: Receipts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I would gladly pay you Tuesday, for a hamburger today."

      - Wimpy

    13. Re:Receipts by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      when you go to Bob's Fine Eatery, give them the email address Bob'sFineEatery@yourdomain.com

      That's a bit of a givaway. Any spammer who knows his salt will know that anything@yourdomain.com will also get to you.

  23. I worked at a restaurant being targeted by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    by crooks. Lobby was Open 24 hours. I never did get robbed, but I knew people who had been. The owner of that restaurant? Started closing the lobby only after the police threatened to hold her criminally liable if anyone got hurt. They knew the robberies were happening, but they were sporadic enough that the profits from keeping the lobby open were > what was stolen.

    Being cashless is a big plus for the employees at 24 hour restaurants.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:I worked at a restaurant being targeted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Police should be paying the restaurant owner. Free honeypot for criminals.

  24. Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers by hjf · · Score: 2

    you can do offline transactions with handheld POS machines. you slide the card and do the transaction manually, then it prints the receipt with a longer blank area, place it above the card and rub something so the thermal paper picks up the embossed numbers.
    some debit cards, like most of the ones here in Argentina, don't have raised numbers. they very explicitly say, on the front of the card, ELECTRONIC USE ONLY. So if the system is down, it's done. You can't use the card.

  25. No worry about restaurants that don't take cash. by sehlat · · Score: 1

    1. If the power fails, any burden falls on them to handle it.

    2. Servers will always accept a cash tip. And unless they've screwed up royally, my tip is as close to 20% as I can manage.

  26. Some Card, Some Cash by DERoss · · Score: 3

    When I eat in a restaurant, I usually pay for my meal with a credit card. However, I never charge a tip. Instead, I always leave a cash tip.

    Why? There are several reasons.

    Some restaurants divide charged tips, giving some of it to the non-service employees such as cooks and dishwashers. That way, the owner does not have to pay everyone the legal minimum wage. This practice was prohibited by the Obama administration but reinstated by Trump. I give a cash tip in an attempt to provide my server the full amount and also to force the owner to pay non-service employees properly.

    When a restaurant submits my charge to its bank, there is a fee deducted from what is credited to the restaurant. Some restaurants reduce charged tips proportionally. I want the server to get the full amount, not a discounted amount.

    If the total amount of a purchase is less than $10, I pay with cash, not a credit card. Whatever happened to "The customer is always right."? If they do not want my cash, I do not want their product or service.

    1. Re:Some Card, Some Cash by houghi · · Score: 1

      I never leave a tip where I live. People get paid a living wage.

      When I went to the US, I obviously went with the quaint ways of the country as I do wherever I go. I found the whole situation extremely confusing.

      In Europe, at the end of the meal I finish the wine I have and might even order some more. Once in while they might look if I want to order more and sometimes I do. I then show my card, so they know I want to pay and that I pay by card. They come with the machine (sometimes I need to go to the counter) put my card in the machine, enter my code and get the receipt. The card never leaves me.

      In the US at the end of my meal, with half a bottle, they ask me if I want anything else (Not right now, thank you.) and I get the bill on the table that I did not yet ask for. After 5 minutes or so they get back and I hand them my card. They then leave and come back with two papers and the card and a pen. I never see any waiter after that, no matter that I sit there for another 30 minutes. (No, the restaurants where not full, nor was it near t o closing time and it happened in ALL places I went to.)
      So now I am here with three papers and need to figure out which one I need to sign and write the tip on and then leave that behind and take two with me.

      I know one place took the details of my card and copied them as it was blocked after a while. No idea which one. Could be any of the places where I _by accident_ took the wrong papers with me. I know this as I came home I had three where my signature was on the paper as well as the 15% or so tip I wrote on it.

      What I found interesting was how much Americans still use cash as there is no other way to deal with it in places where I would not expect it.
      Parking garages. In many places there was no machine to take money or a card. In fact at one place when we left, the person was not even there (perhaps gone to pee or whatever) and left the gate open with a sign "Be right back" so we left. Saved us 30 USD right there. Looking at the sign, that was not the first time.
      Another place is toll roads. You do not even have the option to pay other than cash. To me that is just weird as it takes so much time and therefore money.

      In Europe when it is less than 25EUR I pay contactless. Otherwise I use my PIN. I also think "The customers is always right." is absolute and utter bullshit. The example you give has nothing to do with it. It is a choice and both you have a choice to accept the transaction as well as the store. You did not come to an agreement concerning the transaction, so there is no transaction. That has nothing to do with "Being right".

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  27. Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Only problem with that is that it's (slowly) becoming a thing for companies to issue non-embossed cards.

    Not to mention I imagine most businesses don't even have them on hand. I've asked that very question before when the "system went down" at a McDonald's I patronized last year. The manager just looked at me like I was speaking another language. I could have sworn it was required by most credit card processors that their clients have them for backup, but maybe that's not actually a rule.

  28. This note is legal tender for all debts ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I go into a restaurant place an order or sit down and eat and they refuse my cash at the end of the transaction, I will assume I am no longer in debt to them and just walk out. If i offered my cash and they refused it id like to see what cop will arrest you or judge will hold up that arrest in court because they would not take the cash.

  29. Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Could you have a machine that captures a photo of the card or the magstripe data and phones/Internets it back to the company when the connection goes back up? Basically a modern equivalent of the old ka-chunkers.

  30. Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cash or check only line. Itâ(TM)s probably going to be slower, but the # of them can be demand sized and higher speed customers donâ(TM)t have to wait. I would do this if it were my business, I donâ(TM)t want to turn paying customers away, but I donâ(TM)t mind penalizing the slower ones a bit.

  31. a losing business strategy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I'm sorry sir, but I can't accept this form of payment unless all of your bills are oriented in the same direction."

    Very few businesses find success by refusing customers who are willing to pay, regardless of the method. That is just bad business.

  32. 666-Mark of the cashless society. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah this is wonderful! Soon we'll have that chip in our forehead, or hand that will be the ONLY way we can do commerce.

  33. bank fees? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if your bank charges your small business or franchise location fees to take cash deposits... find a different bank (better ones often spell that as "credit union").

    we don't take cards, nor do we don't pay fees to deposit currency or coin at our bank. we would rather have the expense of 'handling' cash. which is minimal.. compared to the ridiculous fees charged on merchant accounts to take plastic.

    until fees decrease, substantially, and merchant banks, processors and issuing banks and cards protect customer data, and quit selling it.. we'll keep taking cash.. and only cash, or check, or for established customers, net30 terms.

  34. prep cooks & dishwashers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how do they pay their illegal immigrant staff? with no cash, you can only use illegals that have stolen identities.

  35. Re:good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the on by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    ACA? Sure, it stands for now, but GOP is doing its level best to shoot it down.

  36. Sigh. Millennials. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They aren't going to. Get out of uour bubble once in awhile. That makes the andwer to your question: 'Nothing. Absolutely nothing.'. Yiu cannot force anyone to adopt your pet projects against their will, and it's that simple.

  37. Post it clearly by amiga3D · · Score: 2

    As long as they clearly indicate that they don't take cash it's not a problem. I just don't want any surprises. I use my card occasionally at restaurants if the bill is over 50 dollars or so. But mostly I prefer cash for small purchases, certainly any in the 20-30 dollar range. As long as I know their policy though I can avoid them. Not likely to be a problem for me in the near future as there are plenty of place to eat that don't treat their customers like shit.

  38. I notice most comments are not getting modded by retroworks · · Score: 1

    How is the /. business model going to do with out tips?

    --
    Gently reply
  39. Know who really hates this? by EvilSS · · Score: 1

    Waitstaff. In the US IRS rules assume you make 10% of your sales in tips. You are requires to report the actual amount, but that's the minimum the IRS will accept. Needless to say, most tips go under-reported. With credit cards, however, when the tip is left on the card it goes into the resturant's POS system and your actual charged tips get reported.

    Of course the IRS loves the idea I'm sure.

    --
    I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    1. Re:Know who really hates this? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Of course, you can tip exactly 10% on a card, then slip the waiter/ress another 8-10% as cash so they can pocket it.

    2. Re:Know who really hates this? by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      You can. But then you might as well tip them all in cash. Comes out the same.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    3. Re:Know who really hates this? by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      Most tipped positions fall under IRS exemptions for reporting actual tips. If you have worked for tips at multiple places and are unaware of this, it is probably because your State has laws incompatible with IRS methodology on the matter.

      The IRS has multiple ways to get this exemption, but perhaps the most common is TRDA (as the employer knows it) aka TEPA (as the employee will know it.) Under TEPA the IRS has a low-balled estimate of your tipped income and taxes you on that estimate regardless of how much you actually have received in tips.

      Additionally, some industries have their own laws in place, for instance GITCA for the gaming industry. This one is very favorable for both the tipped employee and the employer as they are provided complete safe harbor against audits related to tipped income and as with TEPA the rate is set based on a low-balled estimate of your tipped income.

      My guess is you live in California, where State law makes being under any of these an onerous burden on the employer.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    4. Re:Know who really hates this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yo dawg. Herd you like tips. So we put a gratuity in your gratuity so you can tip while you tip.

  40. Cash is not slower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone who has spent any sort of time at a bar will see the difference in transaction times between cash and card. The card has to be swiped, receipt printed, receipt signed and tip left.

    Cash you walk up and order hand exact cash and tip and walk away. even if you have to break a larger bill it is still typically faster than dealing with a credit card machine.

    A bartender can probably handle multiple cash transactions in the time it takes to do a single card transaction.

    I have infact seen separate cash/card lines at busy events because the card transactions slow down the process so much. Lets the cash payers have a faster line and usually shorter line since so many carry little cash or refuse to carry cash period. or events that refuse to deal with cards at all and just have an ATM at the event that charges a bend over and rape me fee to use it. You'll see lines at the concessions/bars be nice and short while that ATM line is a mile long.

    The only way it is "slower" is the establishment needing to count the till at the end of the day, where as a cashless system will just keep a running total.

    1. Re:Cash is not slower by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Card is also bad in a bar (for customers) because they'll often take it and start a tab. Meaning that "friends'" drinks sometimes end up added to said bar tab. Cash is better since you can control the amount of the tab as it increases -- I'm scroogey that way.

    2. Re:Cash is not slower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True!! and a tab left open with a card is probably the only way a card transaction is faster at a bar, since the card is only delt with at the end of the tab. in between the bar tender is just tracking the tab in the POS, or old fashioned way I still see many bars doing is a notepad. Paperclip the card and ID to the notepad page track the drinks on the front of the page and at the end of the tab rip off the page and enter it all in the register/POS

  41. private debt? by superdave80 · · Score: 1

    This note is legal tender for all debts public and private.

    So, if I order a meal, sit down eat it, and then go to pay in cash... what does the restaurant do? If I hand them cash that covers the bill, haven't I paid my 'debt'?

    1. Re:private debt? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Probably just reject it as if you'd paid them in Canadian dollars

    2. Re:private debt? by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Except we aren't in Canada.

    3. Re:private debt? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Exactly, so they wouldn't accept it

    4. Re:private debt? by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Accept what?

    5. Re:private debt? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Cash

    6. Re:private debt? by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Which 'cash'?

    7. Re:private debt? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Any cash - they'd only accept cards

  42. Fuck all such restaurants, end of story. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll be damned if I am going to cater to a place when I am the CUSTOMER.

    Fuck all businesses who refuse cash, they will never make money from me.

  43. I live in the midwest. by waspleg · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've never seen a place that won't take cash. But I know several cash only businesses.

    Why? Because the CC companies charge fees in the form of percentages of your purchase. I know several others who will charge you more for using a card too.

    The online equivalent, I've seen places put the charge for using something like Paypal back on your bill too.

    Usually the cash only places are awesome too, small businesses with no equivalent elsewhere, like a German meat market owned by an immigrant master meat maker.

    1. Re: I live in the midwest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never seen a place that won't take cash. But I know several cash only businesses.

      Why? Because the CC companies charge fees in the form of percentages of your purchase. I know several others who will charge you more for using a card too.

      The cash-only businesses I know/use do so because they avoid records the IRS can check.

    2. Re:I live in the midwest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in the midwest, too, and cashless places have been infecting my town: I know 1 restaurant, a coffee shop, and 3 specialty shops new in the last couple years which have POS systems which only takes cards - and can't print receipts.

      A$$holes.

      And at least 1 cash-only restaurant. I prefer to go there.

    3. Re:I live in the midwest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Sweden.
      It has been many years since I saw a cash only business.
      But I know several places that won't take cash. And they are increasing in number.

      Handling cash costs money, often more than the fees for using cards.
      Going cash less also cuts down the risk of robberies.

      Refusing to accept cash is not good for the consumers, but it is good for the businesses.

  44. Come on people! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want to pay with cc/dc then then you walk in, if you dont simply turn around a restaurant that accept cash! (Like I do)

  45. Discrimination.. by Bert64 · · Score: 2

    It's not discriminatory providing cards are available to everyone without having to pay fees... Providing there are prepaid cards widely available, anyone can go to a convenience store and exchange their cash for a prepaid card.

    However, by using cards we're handing too much power to the card issuers.. Cash is issued by the government, but cards are entirely commercial so the companies wouldnt think twice about cranking up the costs once you're locked in and cashless becomes the norm.

    There's also the issue of standardisation... Visa and Mastercard are pretty universal and work almost anywhere, but there's also various local payment schemes. Many customers of restaurants are tourists, so if they're accepting a payment method that's only open to local residents you're cutting out these foreign tourists.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  46. Non Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Anyone who doesn't know why - has never owned a restaurant.
    Cash business is not a problem - it's a solution

  47. Yard sales still take cash by tepples · · Score: 1

    Though, with the advent of Square and PayPal, a business which truly accepts only cash has become rare indeed.

    Do you visit a lot of yard sales or garage sales? I do, and most homeowners running them haven't upgraded to Square or PayPal. Yard sale transactions are typically so small (very often below $5) that the 30 cent transaction fee is a far larger fraction of the total than the 3% rake.

    1. Re:Yard sales still take cash by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      Do you visit a lot of yard sales or garage sales?

      TFA is about businesses going cashless, not random folks selling stuff out of their front yard, or on Craigslist. Yes, cash is still king for small, person-to-person transactions.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    2. Re:Yard sales still take cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost everyone has an email account. My bank has a service that can send anyone a payment by email. No need for Square or Paypal. I've used it many times for Craigslist payments.

    3. Re:Yard sales still take cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does that work? How do they turn an email into cash in their hand?

  48. PayPal by tepples · · Score: 1

    When I shop online other than on Amazon, I prefer to pay with PayPal. PayPal can be set to draw from a checking account instead of a credit card.

    1. Re: PayPal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a seperate checking/debit account with a separate bank that is registered with PayPal and Amazon. I siphon in $300 at a time from an ATM withdrawl from the main account for all online purchases. I'm sure many other people operate like this as well.

  49. Upscale Millennials by ffejie · · Score: 2

    "For starters, upscale Millennials -- among the most coveted of diners because of their youth and affluence -- prefer to pay in cash, according to Bankrate.com data."

    I'm sorry, what? I'd love to meet these people. I'm in this demographic and there's 0 people I know who prefer cash. It seems like every time we go out, everyone is trying to throw down a card, occasionally there's a flurry of Venmo payments, but it's almost never cash. Upscale millennials are not unbanked, nor are they without access to technology or credit cards. Why would any one of them prefer cash?

    --
    Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
    1. Re:Upscale Millennials by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Upscale millennials are not unbanked, nor are they without access to technology or credit cards. Why would any one of them prefer cash?

      Maybe it's like the vinyl thing in some circles?

  50. fat chance by aepervius · · Score: 1

    "where our location is tracked 24/7/365" so you don't have a mobile phone, or take the time to switch it off when not making a call, and never receive call ? Because if you do , you are tracked 24/7/365 much MUCH better than if you were paying cashless.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:fat chance by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Pretty much. It's often in flight mode or sitting at home unless I feel like checking messages.

  51. what about bank card by aepervius · · Score: 1

    Here in Europe we have bank card (e.g. called giro card - they are not CC, maybe you call them debit card?), they are accepted *everywhere* (they obey a standard) and they use chip and pin and cannot be copied by the staff. All your problem can be pointed back to your own reluctance as a country to adopt modern banking practice.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:what about bank card by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Swedes call them bankkort or kontokort. The usual English term is "debit card", yes.

  52. Plastic costs money too. by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

    > Cash actually costs money ...

    I love how bits like this pretend that credit card processing is free. It isn't, and far from it. It's going to cost an average restaurant a couple of percent of the check plus a per-check fee plus a couple hundred bucks for a terminal plus a dedicated land line for the terminal (because we apparently live in the 1980's) plus chargebacks plus merchant account fees.

    Neither Paper nor Plastic is free.

  53. Actually YOU probably lose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In state not requiring to accept cash payment, because by the moment they warned you they accept card only, YOU were the one knowing you would not be able to fulfill that, you are the one having committed fraud : the serving was bound to you accepting the cashless condition, which you accepted by ordering, and then you suddenly refuse the condition. Any judge worth their salt would point that out and you would lose. Fraud is not funny so I would advise strongly you don't take legal advise from a slashdotter (not from me either, but all those "they have to accept cash" no they don't in some state and this is clearly indicated by the reserve web site that in state where they may they can have their own policy, and you breaking that policy willingly is fraud).

  54. The first thing restaurants should have done. by will_die · · Score: 1

    Instead of this how about restaurants start charging enough to pay their employees in the cost of the product instead of me having to figure out how much I feel like paying them..
    BTW to the "journalist" who wrote that article, credit card cost money, more than you are going to spend on handling the cash.

  55. You WANT to eat where they don't accept Cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since the US currncy has printed on it the words "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private", if the restaurant doesn't accept your cash after you have attempted to use it to pay for your meal, you are legally free to walk out of the restaurant without paying. Any restaurant that has such a policy is saying that eating there is free once they decline your cash.

    1. Re:You WANT to eat where they don't accept Cash by optikos · · Score: 0

      This! The restaurant is unlikely to win in court (small claims or otherwise), because of that notice on Federal Reserve Notes. Take a video of the restaurant staff refusing FRNs to play back in court.

    2. Re:You WANT to eat where they don't accept Cash by driblio · · Score: 1

      No, once they refuse your cash, you have no food.

      You are free to walk out, hungry.

    3. Re:You WANT to eat where they don't accept Cash by NormalVisual · · Score: 3, Informative

      This! The restaurant is unlikely to win in court (small claims or otherwise), because of that notice on Federal Reserve Notes. Take a video of the restaurant staff refusing FRNs to play back in court.

      And then the restaurant is going to point out that there's no federal law requiring payment in currency or coins to a private business, and the judge is going to agree unless there's a state law to the contrary, and then it'll be up to you to prove otherwise. Text on the currency itself does not mean a thing, and there have been countless cases lost where someone did something stupid like trying to pay with thousands of pennies.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    4. Re:You WANT to eat where they don't accept Cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The restaurant would have no ground to stand on. A debt was incurred and they refused payment.

    5. Re:You WANT to eat where they don't accept Cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have to pay until AFTER you eat. Or at least you don't at an actual restaurant.

      Maybe you should try going to one some time instead of the hot dog stands and fast food places you frequent. You'll probably need to get a job first though. Or you can have your mommy and daddy pay for it.

  56. I always use cash in case of power outages by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/sdut-widespread-power-outages-across-san-diego-county-2011sep08-htmlstory.html

    The power went out in the San Diego are for over 6 hours. It was pure chaos. People that relied on credit cards could not pay for their lunches (businesses lost revenue by people walking out), buy gas (stranded cars at stations), or even use the ATM to get cash.

    Until be have a rock-solid electrical infrastructure that can guarantee at minimum 100% uptime (which they never will) I will not stop using cash.

    Relying solely on a credit card is pure stupidity. You deserve what you get.

    FYI: I was able to pay for my lunch which the restaurant was grateful for. They ended up losing a days worth of revenue that day.

  57. millennial here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remove cash, I stop going there. Simple.

  58. Re: good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the o by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The personal mandate has been removed. The IRS can no longer fine us for not having health insurance. The whole scheme should now start tumbling down.

  59. Re: good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the o by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Until states put a similar mandate in place. Besides, many people WANT insurance -- better than begging for expensive treatment on GoFundMe and hoping people like you enough to pay for you not to croak.

  60. Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, you're not going to be able to do that much longer. The new cards I've been getting are flat. No impression is possible.

  61. They don't have to give you the food. DEBT by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Right, they don't have to give you the food, if you offer them cash. They do not have to accept cash and THEN give you something for it.

    AFTER you've eaten the food, they say you owe them the money. That's a debt. "For all debts, both public and private" means that once you owe them money (you've already gotten the food), you can pay that debt in cash. They can't force you to go get a credit card. They CAN ask you not to come back again with cash.

    1. Re:They don't have to give you the food. DEBT by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      AFTER you've eaten the food, they say you owe them the money. That's a debt.

      No it's not. That's a sales contract that has been fulfilled by one party but not the other. You can only incur debt (as per the financial definition) by borrowing money from someone.

  62. So what do you do with all that privacy? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    I honestly stopped caring years ago. The folks who want to oppress me have much, much better ways to do it than keep track of where I buy gas & food (and no, they don't know what you're buying, that much data isn't collected by the businesses).

    Everytime I hear about privacy I think if this xkcd comic. I'm not saying we shouldn't work to stop oppression, I'm saying there's better places to spend your time and effort. For example, show up to your primary so you can get some candidates that aren't corporate sell outs.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:So what do you do with all that privacy? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Every bit of push back against oppressive technology makes it just a bit harder to build the infrastructure for surveillance. Doing my part.

      It's not only a question of government surveillance. It's a question of employers, spouses, etc, etc, etc knowing where employees and spouses are at a given time. There needs to be a safety valve. An ability to white-lie, to go to an interview while calling in sick, to meet with your less couth friends at a seedy dive bar while being "at work."

      People shouldn't be forced to be pious and perfect by technology -- it's against human nature. Everyone is entitled to their secrets and privacy.

    2. Re:So what do you do with all that privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I honestly stopped caring years ago."
      -Then why should we read any further?

  63. Name one state (there isn't one, by C. 8 & 10) by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Try to name one single state that attempts to override federal law, Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 (the Coinage Act) by saying any debt whatsoever can't be paid in cash.

    After you've searched for a while, you can read Section 10 of the US Constitution:
    No state shall ... make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;

    Which pairs with Section 8:
    The Congress shall have power to ... To coin money, regulate the value thereof

    The US Congress, and Congress alone, has the power to determine what is valid payment of a debt. The exercised that power in 31 U.S.C. 5103. It would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL under section 10 of the Constitution for any state to purport to set any other method of payment.

  64. Re: good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the o by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Until states put a similar mandate in place. Besides, many people WANT insurance -- better than begging for expensive treatment on GoFundMe and hoping people like you enough to pay for you not to croak.

    I'm pretty okay with that, the one health insurance company left in my area is one I know is going to make me do that anyway--last time I was stuck with them, they actually were willing to spend money on hurrying that along. Either that, or they don't like any of their customers enough to ensure that their staff has the basic training for understanding the whole idea of "Not everybody can take the same medications." I'd settle for them not attempting to practice medicine or pharmacology sans license or--since they'd be doing it as employees of the insurance company--the company itself being liable for all such practices. (Either it's with their approval/knowledge and therefore they're doing it as agents of the company, or they're failing in their obligation to properly monitor their employees.)

  65. Funny story by cyn1c77 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Last time I was at a cash only restaurant, I only had 3 bills in the denominations of $5, $50, and $100 dollars. My bill was $15.

    So I try to pay (at the register) with my credit card and they say "cash only". At that point I am excited, because I actually have cash, which I rarely bother to carry. So I pull out the $50 and they would not take it because of fear of counterfeit dollars. They said they won't take any bill higher than $20.

    I was like "uh, your sign says 'cash only', it doesn't say 'cash only in bills less than $50'. If you don't take credit cards, you actually have to accept the cash".

    Long story short, they let me have my meal for free because they were afraid to lose money by making change with a possible counterfeit $50. I eventually went back later and repaid them because I felt bad, but it highlights the issues that they're facing: Afraid to take cash, afraid to pay the credit card fees.

    It also highlights how fucked up the money situation has become in the US. Some places won't take ANY cash. Some places won't take bills over a certain amount. Some places won't take credit cards. And if you are going somewhere new YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT THEY WILL TAKE! You used to be able to just leave the house with a $50 bill and be good to go. Now you have to have a bunch of $20s, your credit card, your ID (in case they check), and maybe your phone to pay with that. Things seem to be getting harder, not easier.

    1. Re:Funny story by fred6666 · · Score: 1

      It also highlights how fucked up the money situation has become in the US.

      I agree. As a tourist, I was surprised to see that tolls on I-95 didn't accept credit cards. Instead, they hire a lot of people just to count cash and give back change while this could easily be automated. And no, tourists won't get ez-pass and car rental companies charge WAY too much to use theirs.

  66. Re: Name one state (there isn't one, by C. 8 & by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You might think you are right, but the existence of sanctuary states and recreational MJ states indicates that although the law might be on your side, the courts interpreting the law are not on your side.

  67. Same articles say states regulate marijuana by raymorris · · Score: 1

    The same articles of the Constitution that say the feds set the money and states can't, also say that the feds CANNOT do anything other than the listed powers and all other powers are reserved to the states. So Constitutionally the states, not the feds, regulate possession of marijuana.

    The feds Constitutionally regulate *interstate commerce* - in marijuana and other things. Try getting caught selling weed across state lines and see how that goes.

    Section 8 of the Constitution also assigns to the federal government the establishment of uniform immigration law. It does not, however, compel states to use their police forces to enforce immigration law.

  68. Give a discount for cashless by DrXym · · Score: 1

    If its such a hassle to take cash, take 5% off the cost when people don't. Otherwise GTFO.

  69. Banks.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just got a huge tax cut. So shut up about it costing money to handle money..

  70. The real question by reanjr · · Score: 1

    Why do affluent millennials prefer cash at restaurants? Are affluent millennials too poor to rotate tabs? Are they too luddite to pay each other with Square? I'm really confused by this fact. I don't use cash for anything legal.

  71. legal tender by matushorvath · · Score: 1

    Will someone knowledgeable please explain, what does "legal tender" mean if it does not mean they have to accept cash to settle my debt?

  72. Cashless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A cashless society is a disaster waiting to happen.

  73. Merchant bonus for credit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder how much of this is really the merchant wanting to know WHO their customers are so they can track better and target the regulars with coupons or other offers when they haven't been in for awhile or stop coming to their restaurant. It's your surrender of privacy that the merchant may want.

    I have had lunch in local restaurants from 5 to 7 days a week and dinner 3 to 5 days a week for decades. Many local restaurants personnel recognize me but I have always paid cash. I don't want any of them pestering me to come back when I choose other restaurants most of the time.

    If any of my favorite restaurants stop taking cash, they will never see my business again.

  74. Stupid Chicago Politicians by Notabadguy · · Score: 1

    Apparently the ones trying to mandate restaurants accepting cash because plastic discriminates against credit-card-less people don't realize that plastic also comes in the form of pre-paid credit cards (same as cash), gift cards (lesser, but as good as cash).

    They still accept cash, but your cash needs to be loaded on a piece of plastic.

    Or you can eat elsewhere.

  75. under 18 can have debit cards by fred6666 · · Score: 1

    as well as pre-paid "credit" cards. So there is no discrimination when going cash less.

    Here in Canada, debit card is the preferred option by restaurants (and most merchants), since they avoid the high fees of credit cards and the hassle of cash.

  76. barter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not far-fetched in the US at all.

    See also, widespread blackouts and telecomm outages in 2012 after Hurricane Sandy. 2003 Northeast blackout. And that's just one decade, in one part of the country.

    That's why I have a pile of squirrel pelts that I plan to use for bartering when things collapse.

  77. Cashless costs too by gabrieltss · · Score: 1

    Every time you swipe your Credit Card the business is charged merchant fees and transaction fees. Oh wait, but they will just pass those costs on to YOU! SO your food, your drinks will end up costing you MORE than if you paid cash!

    We have some restaurants near me that we used to go to all the time. They wet to "cashless" only. We stopped going to those restaurants. So not only is that restaurant losing our business, the waitresses are losing out on much needed tips (which we ALWAYS do in cash). Taking away the cash option - is a lose-lose for the restaurants. The ones that do will probably long term close up or change back.

    --
    The Truth is a Virus!!!
  78. Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next tim by guruevi · · Score: 1

    Which is illegal after you have already racked up the debt. You have to sign off on that kind of understanding and even then it might be considered usury.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  79. Cash needs no cell data plan by tepples · · Score: 1

    My bank has a service that can send anyone a payment by email.

    Many banks offer that, and it works wherever you have Internet access. But when you're at a garage sale, you're often in range of neither your home LAN nor a public hotspot. How much do you pay per 12 months for a cellular Internet connection in order to be able to email money while out of Wi-Fi range?

    1. Re:Cash needs no cell data plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disregarding the fact that many places in the world have very good & cheap mobile internet so in most cases that's a non-issue, in the particular edge case you mention you're in range of the seller's wireless network, so it may be in his/her best interest to provide a guest SSID for whoever needs it to make a payment.

  80. Bullshit and Horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bullshit: 'Upscale millennials prefer to pay in cash'

    The exact opposite is true.

    Horseshit: The entire pretense of this story.

    The fact is that merchants(restaurants or otherwise) will accept whatever payment their customers demand. The goal is to make transferring money form suckers(customers) to merchants as frictionless as possible. If the masses want to pay in Bitcoin(LOL) then the merchants will accept it and roll any incurred costs into the product price.

    Not many years ago, fast food restaurants didn't take credit cards at all. None of them wanted to because the transaction costs were such a large percentage of their small ~$3-10 transactions. But, their customers wanted to pay with credit, whether it was for convenience or because they had to finance their food, and today they take plastic. The cost of the food has risen to cover the transaction costs. And, Slashdot is posting articles about cashless.

    If a meaningful sized group wants to pay with cash, or Bitcoin, or used anal beads(assuming they have value), the merchants' greed will compel them accept whatever payment it is. Even the Chicago restauranteur that went cashless in the summary isn't happy about the 2%(LOL) loss after going cashless. I guarantee you that at loss levels of around 6%, he'll take cash and if the supposed "upscale millennials prefer to pay in cash" it'll be a lot more than 6% of his business.

    This story is horseshit and was probably commissioned by a credit card company propagandizing the utopian(to them) cashless society.

  81. Excuses by aglider · · Score: 0

    Cash is for those who need to hide something.

    --
    Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
  82. A) Debt is owed, for reason, B) law, not finance by raymorris · · Score: 1

    A) In finance, if you owe an money, that's debt. It doesn't have to be money - because you borrowed money. If an airline has 50 planes delivered and hasn't paid for them yet, that's included in debt load. Compare liabilities, which can be non-money things owed.

    B) We're talking about law, not finance. Let's look at the preeminent law dictionary, Black's Law Dictionary:
    --
      A debt is a sum of money due by contract. It is most frequently due by a certain...
    ---

    > That's a sales contract that has been fulfilled by one party and not the other ...

    Which is almost EXACTLY the legal definition of debt, when a contract says money is due and it hasn't yet been paid. :)

  83. Globalist Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a globalist push to surveil many aspects of a person's life in order to establish a one-world corporate totalitarian government. This requires knowing every single financial transaction which can only be done through a digital log. The article may be one of their propaganda pieces to drum up support of a cashless society.

  84. Well..... by MerlTurkin · · Score: 1

    I'll eat elsewhere. Fortunately I'm not too lazy to cook my own food and VERY rarely eat out. I hate eating out.

  85. I won't eat there. Not risk using CC for $12 meal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I won't eat there. Not risk using CC for $12 meal.
    For anything under $25, I use cash.

    If you want to have a private club, which is illegal in many places, fine. I won't be a member.

    When the terminal is down, how does the business remain open?

    Guess he never read the laws about "legal tender"?

  86. Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers by jrumney · · Score: 1

    That seems to be what some systems do now. I had a paywave transaction timeout yesterday. The cashier then tried inserting the card into the slot, but the machine told him to swipe it, which never happens these days but I guess it makes sense - all the chip communication is encrypted, so the only way to store and forward is to take the data from the magstripe. It then had him reinsert the card and present it to me for PIN entry, so there was still some sort of challenge-response handshake to verify the transation, and after that it had another attempt at putting through an online transaction, this time printing the usual slip after the timeout. I imagine the delays between timeouts could cause a significant slowdown in a busy restaurant, or worse - a supermarket, though once they know the system is down, they can limit it to one timeout by not attempting the paywave transaction first.

  87. Does cash cost more than cards? by sabbede · · Score: 1
    I didn't know banks charged for cash deposits (ridiculous), but I do know that the likes of Visa and Mastercard charge transaction fees. That's why your local convenience store probably doesn't accept cards for purchases under $3.

    And while I realize it's easier for someone to point a gun at you and take your cash than it is to steal credit card transactions, how often does that really happen to the average restaurateur?

  88. This note is legal tender by SunTzuWarmaster · · Score: 1

    I used to have more cash on hand because I operated a small laundromat. People would refuse things like "$20 in unrolled quarters" to pay for gas (back when you paid after you pumped) with reasonable frequency.

    Here is how not to be refused cash payment:
    "Here is your payment."
    "I'm sorry sir, we do not accept cash."
    "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private. It says as such on its face."
    "I'm sorry sir, we do not accept this as payment for your private debt at this establishment."
    "That is a real shame. I tell you what - I'm going to leave this cash here in exact change and walk out. You may call the police or press charges for theft if you wish."

    No one ever called the police or pressed charges. I *think* it is legally ambiguous if you take items and leave money (is this theft? you actually paid...). It could be settled via small claims court (if the judge rules against the cash customer), I suppose, but both parties would have to show up. Further - the business would have to prove that you "stole" with video evidence... of you pumping gas, going inside, leaving cash, and leaving.

    1. Re:This note is legal tender by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      It's legal tender, which is to say, it's a valid *offer* of payment. They don't have to take it, but they can't accuse you of fraud for trying to pay with it.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  89. Better tipping leads to better service by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 1

    That said, the whole idea of expected tipping is quite ridiculous and causes all manner of problems.

    Yeah, right. Tipping well at a place you regularly visit is how you get better service, including complimentary items. I paid for exactly 0 of my drinks at the bar I ate at this past weekend. Heck, some places will even give you free lodging if you're a good customer.

    No one's forcing you to leave a tip.

    1. Re:Better tipping leads to better service by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      Ah, so you are what some places would call 'a high roller' and others would call 'a moron?'

      The only reason they would do this is that you are an easy mark and they are making nice big fat piles of money off you.
      They wont be doing this for normal tips - for a start, why would the company (the ones paying for your free whatevers) care about their staff getting tips.

      BS.

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