What Happens When Restaurants Go Cashless (usatoday.com)

There's a new trend starting: restaurants that won't accept cash. USA Today reports: Restaurant owners say ordering is faster from customers who slap down plastic instead of dollars, cutting a few seconds out of the process. But most of the benefits appear to accrue to the restaurants: less time taken counting bills, reduced pilferage, no armored-car fees or fear of stickups. It's a risky strategy. For starters, upscale Millennials -- among the most coveted of diners because of their youth and affluence -- prefer to pay in cash, according to Bankrate.com data. Also, more than a third of Americans between the ages of 18 and 37 do not have a credit card. For customers, patronizing restaurants that don't take cash means one less payment option when they need a quick meal during an all-too-short lunch hour. Plus, it raises questions about whether it discriminates against cardless teens and the poor... A committee in Chicago is weighing Alderman Edward Burke's proposed requirement that merchants accept cash. Massachusetts has had a Discrimination Against Cash Buyers rule on the books since 1978... Lana Swartz, co-editor of the book Paid: Tales of Dongles, Checks, and Other Money Stuff, says "One of the cornerstones of American capitalism is everyone's money is equal."
Meanwhile, the Associated Press reports: Many business owners would rather be cashless. Cash actually costs money -- banks charge fees for cash deposits and to handle coins... And counting and checking cash and preparing it for deposit takes up time a manager could spend with staff or customers... Millions of consumers use little or no cash. In a survey released last month by the financial services company Capital One, only 21 percent of 2,000 people questioned said cash was their most common way to pay for things. But going cashless isn't a slam-dunk. Some customers who want to use cash point to a statement on paper money: "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private." However, the Federal Reserve says on its website that private companies can make their own policies about cash unless there is a state law saying otherwise.
One Houston restauranteur changed his mind about going cashless, saying "You can't compete if you think you're going to create a whole set of rules and expect people to follow them." One Chicago restauranteur admits that "it has generated the most negative pushback of anything we've ever done," estimating revenue fell 2% just from angry cash customers who never returned.

But he persisted because his eight restaurants had experienced six burglaries, break-ins or armed robberies over the last eight years -- and got "dozens and dozens" of counterfeit bills from customers -- while by going cashless, he no longer has to pay for bank fees and armored car pickups.

Comments

Lower prices right?

[svendsen]

So the cashless restaurants are going to have lower prices and not charge like 12 bucks for a mixed drink?

Re:Lower prices right?

[known_coward_69]

not as long as there are dummies willing to pay that much for a shot of cheap liquor and a cup of fruit juice

Re:Lower prices right?

[ShanghaiBill]

So the cashless restaurants are going to have lower prices

Restaurants are in a very competitive business, with a high failure rate. So cost savings are very likely to be reflected in prices.

not charge like 12 bucks for a mixed drink?

More likely they will cut food prices instead. Drinks are less price sensitive. Especially after the first few rounds.

Re: Lower prices right?

[ffejie]

Your wanting goods or services are not a debt public or private. They can refuse to sell you something if you don't pay with a credit card, or bitcoin, or acorns, or rare gemstones from some asteroid.

The clause you're citing is if you owe someone money for something. For instance, if we have a contract that says you owe me $10 every time you post something insane on Slashdot. If you offer me 1000 pennies for this, and I say "no, I only take rare gemstones," then you can consider your debt satisfied in the eyes of the law. You offered legal currency, I refused.

Re: Lower prices right?

[fisted]

Do you pay upfront when eating in a restaurant?

Re: Lower prices right?

[ffejie]

At the kind of restaurants (grab and go, counter service, fast food) that are described in this article, almost exclusively yes.

These are the places where you order your food from a person at a register (or a kiosk!) and then pay. You might get a number or a buzzer, and a few minutes later, your food is ready. At the salad chains mentioned in the article, you watch them build your salad as you go down the line and then you pay at the very end right before they give it to you. They simply won't let you transact if you don't have a card.

Re: Lower prices right?

[dougdonovan]

use plastic...duh.

Re:Lower prices right?

[uncqual]

The key word is "debt". Barring a contract clause to the contrary, a debtor in the US must accept USD cash to satisfy a financial debt.

However, when you buy a meal at a restaurant, you are not entering into a debtor:creditor relationship (of course assuming you didn't enter into some bizarre contract with the restaurateur indicating that they had loaned you the money for the meal and you, then, were to repay that loan before leaving the restaurant).

As the Federal Reserve site explains, there is "no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services."

Re: Lower prices right?

[driblio]

No pay, no get food, no debt. Keep up.

Re: Lower prices right?

[driblio]

Yes, you can walk out. But you won't get any food in the process. You have to pay first- no debt.

Re: Lower prices right?

[tlhIngan]

These are the places where you order your food from a person at a register (or a kiosk!) and then pay. You might get a number or a buzzer, and a few minutes later, your food is ready. At the salad chains mentioned in the article, you watch them build your salad as you go down the line and then you pay at the very end right before they give it to you. They simply won't let you transact if you don't have a card.

No, that goes away - because if you're turning down a customer at that point, it's literally a waste of money - the customer has wasted their time and effort and leaves angry. The restaurant now has a meal that is unwanted - and they cannot sell it. No customer further down the line would want something made for someone else (even if they wanted the same thing - if you could have it made in front of you versus already made sitting out for who knows how long, at the same price, which would you go for?). There is no option other than the restaurant to throw it out - they can't even donate it to the food bank. OK, maybe they can give it to the bum in the alleyway behind the store, but it's still a loss to the store.

If you put the register up front at time of order, then customers may be mildly annoyed (depends on how long the line up is), but it also matters because now it's a voided transaction. Those things are recorded (sometimes people want to know - how much business was turned away).

  I have credit cards, but I never use them for food - using the simple principle of "if I can't see it when I pay the bill, it doesn't belong on the card". I should be able to take my bill, and physically see what was bought - tickets to an event (I have stubs), items, etc. Thus, consumables that will not last until bill day can't go on the credit card.

All I would demand is a simple sign at the door if someone doesn't take cash. If I know going in you don't take cash, you and I could avoid wasting a lot of time. No, a sign by the register won't cut it, because if I have to wait in line, you better serve me.

Re: Lower prices right?

[reanjr]

You sound like someone who lives in rural America.

Re: Lower prices right?

[nitehawk214]

How do you get the food first when you never leave your parents basement?

Re: Lower prices right?

[Cederic]

What an impressively arrogant and ignorant post.

Rural America has restaurants easily the match of the city ones. You're clearly just too full of yourself to try them. Your loss.

Re: Lower prices right?

[Cederic]

That's going to be a comical police report. "The customer offered us legal tender and we refused to take his money. Please arrest him for failing to pay."

The only uncertainty here is whether they'll be prosecuted for wasting police time or whether they'll be allowed to reach court and get done for wasting court time instead.

Re:Lower prices right?

[thegarbz]

So the cashless restaurants are going to have lower prices and not charge like 12 bucks for a mixed drink?

Or maybe they still charge 12 bucks for a mixed drink but pay their staff a living wage.

Re:Lower prices right?

[thegarbz]

Cash is legal tender for all debts public and private

The number of situations where you end up with what is classified as a debt in a typical lifetime can be normally counted on one hand. The bank *must* accept cash, the government must accept cash, and that's about where it ends.

Re: Lower prices right?

[thegarbz]

Do you pay upfront when eating in a restaurant?

Not paying up front doesn't mean you have debt. It just means you have a contractual obligation to pay for the service you received. Contracts do not automatically create debt. Debt with its proper finance definition (such as the one used by the federal reserve) is the amount of money borrowed from another party.

You don't borrow money off someone when they serve you food but rather you enter into a stock standard buyer seller relationship.

You're also not in debt in the supermarket while you're physically holding that box of cereal but haven't paid for it yet.

Re: Lower prices right?

[Xenocrates]

I owe money for the meal. I offer cash. You say "No, I only take the finest paypal electrons." I can now consider it satisfied in the eyes of the law, as I offered legal currency, and you refused.

I get your point, but your explanation needs work.

Re: Lower prices right?

[dryeo]

Is a 1000 pennies legal tender in the States? Here in Canada, pennies are/were only legal tender up to 25 cents with other coins having similar limits of 20-25 coins so even paying a $100 bill with toonies ($2 coin) can be refused.
It gets even weirder with various commemorative/special issue coins such as the Olympic $5 & $10 coins I own where they are only legal tender for one.
There is also a rule that people don't have to accept bills if they don't trust them for whatever reason, which is why it is legal for stores to refuse to cash a fifty or hundred.

Re: Lower prices right?

[Cederic]

I don't even fucking live in America. I just happen to travel and experience things.

You should give it a go, if you can pull your head out of your intestines.

Re: Lower prices right?

[ffejie]

Not sure what you mean by "No, that goes away." I understand the rest of your post. I agree it's wasted goods for the store, but they're not going to turn around and give it to you for free because you tell them you don't have a card.

While I can't speak to all of these places, the one cashless place that I frequent actually has it on the door on the way you walk in, and on the "sneeze guard" divider where you start your order. It's readily apparent for someone paying attention. I would not be surprised if they have to turn away one or fewer people per day.

I have credit cards, but I never use them for food - using the simple principle of "if I can't see it when I pay the bill, it doesn't belong on the card". I should be able to take my bill, and physically see what was bought - tickets to an event (I have stubs), items, etc. Thus, consumables that will not last until bill day can't go on the credit card.

I find this interesting, but totally arbitrary. Why create this division? What if you go to a theme park? What if you stay at a hotel? Are these cash or credit expenses? You can't see the good - both are experiences (and both generally would be pretty good candidates to have on a credit card). You'll have receipts, but nothing stops you from saving your receipt from the burrito you bought for lunch either. As someone who uses a credit card in most places, I don't really understand why someone would prefer cash unless it's for spending control/budgetary reasons.

Re: Lower prices right?

[ffejie]

Snopes seems to indicate that per the coinage act of 1965, coins are legal tender in this regard.

Re:Lower prices right?

[uncqual]

I'm skeptical that is a "debt" legally. Assuming the policy of "No Cash" is posted, you agreed to those terms when you ordered.

If you are in a Walmart and eat a candy bar while in the store and intentionally walk out without paying for it, what is that? It sounds like theft to me. If you think it's just a "debt", what about if you put the candy bar in your pocket and intentionally walk out without paying for it, what is that? It sounds like theft to me rather than owing a "debt". What if you are in a Walmart and intentionally walk out with a television set without paying for it, what is that? It sounds like theft to me rather than owing a debt. Intent may matter here though -- if you were unaware of the contract terms (didn't notice the sign), it's probably not a criminal matter.

I would think in the case where the diner has eaten the meal and then doesn't have a credit or debit card to pay for it or simply refuses to use a card, it would be a civil issue that the restaurant could pursue in court and it might become a "debt" when a judgement against the diner is entered. In practice, they will probably take the cash and advise the diner that next time they can't pay via cash. If the diner repeats this behavior, the restaurant might again take cash but then inform the diner they are no longer welcome at the establishment and that they will be trespassing and the police will be called to arrest them if they return and don't leave upon request.

Re:Lower prices right?

[castrox]

Don't count on lowered prices. Here in Sweden the tax for food in restaurants was halved to 12.5% a few years ago. That had zero effect on prices and restaurants profits simply increased.

Re: Lower prices right?

[tlhIngan]

While I can't speak to all of these places, the one cashless place that I frequent actually has it on the door on the way you walk in, and on the "sneeze guard" divider where you start your order. It's readily apparent for someone paying attention. I would not be surprised if they have to turn away one or fewer people per day.

That is good. Because it means there's plenty of warning that I shouldn't line up at the place. So yes, they probably have only one or two declined customers per day - if you tell people you don't take cash with plenty of notice, then those who choose to pay in cash will automatically not enter. Only those who are oblivious enough to not see the signs would get caught.

I find this interesting, but totally arbitrary. Why create this division? What if you go to a theme park? What if you stay at a hotel? Are these cash or credit expenses? You can't see the good - both are experiences (and both generally would be pretty good candidates to have on a credit card). You'll have receipts, but nothing stops you from saving your receipt from the burrito you bought for lunch either. As someone who uses a credit card in most places, I don't really understand why someone would prefer cash unless it's for spending control/budgetary reasons.

It's actually a "responsible use of credit" thing. You put onto credit things that will last until you pay the bill (helps remind you why you spent so much money). If it was going to theme parks, you'd have stubs and souvenirs of the tickets, shows and crap you bought. But common meals, well, I can't tell you what I had for lunch on Friday (well, actually I can, but still).

Plus, things like vacations and trips, you usually pay a good chunk of them ahead of time, so when you pay the bill, you still have the air tickets and such. It does break down if say, you need to go somewhere tomorrow at the very last minute, but hey, in general that's the rule.

Re:Lower prices right?

[thesupraman]

Are you just playing silly games, or are you not thinking?

1 - You can post what you want, you can put up signs saying 'no gays accepted in our restaurant' but the law says otherwise, posting signs does NOT change the law, and the law says that you can use your cash to pay a debt.

2 - Walmart does NOT allow you to eat the candy bar before you pay for it, therefore that is the point you did something wrong - absolutely nothing to do with payment - they just may decide to accept a settlement (in effect) when you pay for it. As to the 'walk out with a televison set' you are just being intentionally stupid there.

3 - It would be quite simply, in the court the diner would say "I offered legal tender to satisfy the debt then, and I offer it now, it is right here, will the restaurant still not accept my payment?' and the judge will laugh at the restaurant, and quite probably award costs.

You last 'point' is getting closer to reality. If a restuarant want so negotiate a contract BEFORE the meal (hello, welcome to out restaurant, do you accept that we do not take cash for payment, and agree to use a debit or credit card to settle the debit?) then they have negotiated a contract and given you the chance to accept or negotiate back, THEN they would have standing.

Re: Lower prices right?

[nukenerd]

As someone who uses a credit card in most places, I don't really understand why someone would prefer cash

1) It's quicker for me. Unlike some of the dipsticks being complained about here and by the restauranteurs, I generally know what I need to pay and get my cash ready while in the queue for the cashier or walking towards them. I carry an assortment of denominations and very often give the right amount straight off, or requiring only a penny change for those 4.99 type prices. I am talking about the smaller purchases here.

2) Again for smaller amounts it's cheaper for the shopkeeper. As I understand it in the UK at least, there is a minimum fee the shopkeeper pays to the credit card company. At least that's what a second-hand bookshop owner told a guy in front of me once in no uncertain terms when he offered a card for a book costing 3 pounds. They said the fee left them with no profit out of it.

3) It shortens my card statement by dozens of items so I don't need to spend so much time later checking through against the retained receipts in case someone somewhere has got my card details and is using my account. Perhaps you don't bother doing that.

Re: Lower prices right?

[ffejie]

3) It shortens my card statement by dozens of items so I don't need to spend so much time later checking through against the retained receipts in case someone somewhere has got my card details and is using my account. Perhaps you don't bother doing that.

This used to be a big deal to me, but not really anymore. I find that I can check my credit card bill in about 3-5 minutes. Maybe I could cut this down to 1-2 minutes if I removed a bunch of transactions like you have. In general, I scan for all the merchants that I frequent, and as long as there's no double charges (or charges on the same day), and it's about what I remember, then I call it good. I am not matching all my receipts against my purchases. I can imagine if you do this, having dozens and dozens of sub $20 charges on your card monthly would be a pretty big hassle. I bet someone could sneak in a few Amazon.com transactions here and there and I'd have no idea if they were small in amount.

Cashless = No tips

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, when I don't pay cash, I literally never leave a tip. When the machine ask if I want to leave a tip, I just press Ok on 0.00$ to skip that and go quicker.
So pay your employees a living wage instead a relying on tips.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[ArchieBunker]

You must not eat in the same restaurant twice. I can only imagine what's happened to your food...

Re:Cashless = No tips

[King_TJ]

Yep. Jersey Mike's should tip ME for accepting those terrible excuses for sandwiches, really.

But come on... no tip at all in a sit-down place? You demand slave labor from your servers then, I take it?

Re:Cashless = No tips

[SuperKendall]

Even a fas food place with all workers behind the counter, I still leave a tip as the people that work there get a lot more impact from whatever I give them than I have by keeping it. At least a few dollars.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[rtb61]

For me, I simply limit credit card purchases. Never ever buy consumables with a credit card, makes it a whole lot easier to track shonky transactions. So go to cash machine and get cash for all consumable purchases. Credit card or more accurately debit card, just to pay bills to produce an independent record of payment and tech gear or stuff ordered online to enable payments to be contested should they fail to meet required expectations. Out and about, always cash, maintains a level of privacy, less purchases from often somewhat less reliable billers and far fewer transactions to track.

Never pay a tip, seems pretty tacky, denigrating must be because where I live, they get a living wage and not just fucked over.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[EvilSS]

So pay your employees a living wage instead a relying on tips.

Agreed. Restaurants just need to bite the bullet and raise prices by 30% and pass it on to the waitstaff already.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[RhettLivingston]

You may be right, but the proper thing to do if you disagree with the business model is to stop patronizing the model.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Jack9]

> the proper thing to do if you disagree with the business model is to stop patronizing the model.

That's one opinion. Another is to not participate in the model that someone else wishes existed.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[preflex]

But come on... no tip at all in a sit-down place? You demand slave labor from your servers then, I take it?

No, it's the Restaurant owners that are demanding slave labor from their employees. It's their responsibility to pay them a reasonable wage, not the Customers'.

If the employees' $2.13/hr wages+tips over the pay period averages less than minimum wage, the employer is obligated to make up the difference.

Re: Cashless = No tips

[ShanghaiBill]

A felony called food tampering?

Let them try it.

How are you even going to know? Spit doesn't have a distinctive flavor.

Tipping is stupid, but that is not the fault of some waitress barely getting by.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Anonymous Coward]

Might be from Australia (for example) tips are not expected. And they are right about skipping through to be quicker.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[ShanghaiBill]

Another is to not participate in the model that someone else wishes existed.

Not patronizing at all is more effective, because it affects the people empowered to make the change. Lyft encourages tipping. Uber does not. So use Uber, and Lyft may change their policy. OTOH, Lyft may be able to attract more drivers, since many riders are not cheapskates.

Re: Cashless = No tips

[burtosis]

Not having done it myself, you can take a sample of the food in and have it tested for saliva, fecal matter, various bodily fluids, etc. it's not even super expensive.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Bert64]

You tip *after* you've had the food, so long as you don't return to the same restaurant again you'll be fine.

That said, the whole idea of expected tipping is quite ridiculous and causes all manner of problems.

I travel often for business, i need receipts for my food and i get reimbursed, if you give me a receipt which includes the total amount including the tip i can claim back the tip which means i'm likely to be more generous with it. If i'm paying the tip out of my own pocket i'm going to be more stingy not least of all because i'm not eating out by choice - i'm away from home on business and can't prepare food at home like i normally would.

Not only that but if your working in a restaurant, the restaurant should pay a reasonable wage, not expect you to pay 15% more than the advertised price to pay for the staff. If you need to charge more to pay for the staff then raise prices so the cost is up front, or add a service charge thats displayed on the menu. If you're advertising a price then i'll expect to pay the advertised price.

You shouldn't be tipping staff simply for doing their job, you should tip them for going above and beyond. If they're simply doing their job to the expected standard then you've already covered the cost in the bill. It's even worse when you actually receive poor service and they still expect a tip!

Another thing that annoys me is you're expected to tip the waiters, but what about the chef? If you hd a really good meal, wouldn't you rather reward the chef who cooked it? The guy who slaved away over a hot stove to produce a delicious meal, or should you reward the guy who relayed your order to the chef and then carried the order to you? Some restaurants actually replace the ordering part with a tablet located on the table, so the waiter only has to carry your order to you, i wouldn't be surprised to see that automated by a robot at some point too.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Bert64]

And because the tip is paid *after* the meal, and certain nationalities are known for not tipping, as soon as the waitress hears an australian accent you get terrible service.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Bert64]

We neither demand nor expect slave labor, we expect to receive the goods we ordered for the advertised price, and to receive a receipt afterwards which accurately reflects the price we paid.

If the menu states that a 15% service charge will be added on top of the cost of the individual items then that's fine, it's up front, we know the cost before we order and we have a record of the cost afterwards.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can't or won't pay the tip (assuming the service is OK), you can't afford the meal.

If you can't or won't pay your employees a living wage, you can't afford to run a business.

Re: Cashless = No tips

[ShanghaiBill]

it's not even super expensive.

But likely more expensive than tipping.

Also, by the time the testing is done, your food will be cold.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[SirSlud]

If they paid a living wage, your bill would be 15% more. So just pay the 15% more. You're punishing the employee for a situation that isn't is his or her power to change over an amount of money you'd claim you'd pay anyways were it part of their salary. It doesn't paint your reasoning as having anyone's interests other than your own in mind.

Chefs get paid more. Many places just share the tip totals anyhow. No system is perfect, but you're trying to reason with the world the way you think it should be, not the way it is. That's something most people mature out of at some point.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Dog-Cow]

That's something most people mature out of at some point.

Do you have any evidence to back up the use of most as a qualifier?

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Rockoon]

If the employees' $2.13/hr wages+tips over the pay period averages less than minimum wage, the employer is obligated to make up the difference.

..not in the U.S., or at least any place in the U.S. I am familiar with.

Such a system would be easily abused.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[houghi]

I am not that afraid of tracking. When I pay with a card (and I do that for almost everything or sometimes debit card) I enter my PIN or not even that if I pay wireless.
The stores will not have my card. I do not store my CC number on online stores, so they should not have it there either. Tjhe CC company will know where I bought something, but will not know WHAT I bought. In Belgium they are even not allowed to analyze that data for marketing (Yes, they do analyze it for fraud prevention. NO, they do not do it for marketing purposes, because they risk their right to do business).
Next to that they are not allowed to sell that data and if they do, soon they could pay 4% of their global annual revenue or up to 20MM EUR.

To me it is easier to follow my expenses as there is only one place I need to look: my bank. I can easily see all my income and expenses in one place.

The places where I still pay cash and related to this article is in restaurants. When I go to some place to eat, I will go with some friends. It is then easier when getting the bill, just to divide it by two, three or four and each will pay that. In pubs paying cashless is not yet common, unfortunately. I would LOVE to have that to be able to order drinks and just pay wireless each time I order.

We leave tips, but those will be more rounding up so we do not have to bother with change or because it is just easier to calculate. e.g. if the bill is say 163.70 EUR (looking at the last bill), we would pay 165 EUR or 53 EUR each. No, we do not bother the waiter to split the bill.)

Re:Cashless = No tips

[MrMr]

Ok, so it is not gratuity, it is protection money?

Re: Cashless = No tips

[TheRaven64]

A Pizza Hut franchise near where I used to live made the mistake of doing this to some off-duty police officers. It didn't end well for either the employees responsible or the managers who were supposed to have prevented this.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[TheRaven64]

Chefs get paid more

Not universally true. For example, New York has a skills shortage for kitchen staff because they require at least a 6-month vocational training course and then end up making less than unqualified front-of-house staff (and in New York State it is legal to pool tips between front of house staff, but illegal to share tips with kitchen staff). A few of the upmarket restaurants have now started banning tips. This has been popular with their staff, because their income is now much more consistent (prior to that, it could vary hugely when, for example, you got a table of teetotalers or someone who orders the $200 bottle of wine, even if you give precisely the same service).

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Wrath0fb0b]

If you can't or won't pay your employees a living wage, you can't afford to run a business.

If an owner eliminates tips and raises prices to the exact amount required to make up for it, the total cost to the consumer will be higher because the price of food is subject to sales tax but the tip isn't.

For instance:

$9.09 burger, with some arbitrary 'base wage'
$0.90 sales tax
$2 tip
-------
$12 out of the customer's pocket

$11.09 burger, where $2 goes to higher wages versus above
$1.11 sales tax
------
$12.20 out of the the customer's pocket.

In an industry with such awful margins, that's a big deal. It's a strong incentive not to go tip-less..

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Kernel Kurtz]

You must not eat in the same restaurant twice. I can only imagine what's happened to your food...

Why would you go back to a restaurant not worthy of a tip?

Re:Cashless = No tips

[Cederic]

I pay a tip because I earn four times as much as people working service jobs and I recognise the effort they have to put in for the income they earn.

If they're young it's a virtuous cycle, they'll get older and get better jobs and tip people. If they're not young then they're probably living financially on the edge so the money will be useful for them anyway.

The only person that loses out is me. If they don't want the tip, they can always stick it in the charity jar.

Re: Cashless = No tips

[joe_frisch]

I wish staff were paid better. I always try to tip according to local custom, but when traveling itâ(TM)s difficult. Often guidebooks are unclear and sometimes expectations for visitors at different than for locals. Some places it confuses the staff, sometimes itâ(TM)s an insult.

So much easier if staff were paid reasonably.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[thegarbz]

Having travelled to America many times I can categorically say I have never experienced this once.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[thegarbz]

If an owner eliminates tips and raises prices to the exact amount required to make up for it, the total cost to the consumer will be higher because the price of food is subject to sales tax but the tip isn't.

You just justified not abolishing the shithouse tipping culture to save in 20c worth of taxes. That is the single dumbest thing I've ever heard in the whole tipping debate. You should feel bad for even suggesting that there are people out there who care about this, but I suspect the reason you think that is you're probably the cheapest person alive.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[lsatenstein]

I look at my bill and I give the 15% rounded up to the nearest dollar into the server's hand. I am probably contributing to unpaid taxes on tips. But that is small amounts when you compare the President of the USA not paying Income taxes for years.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[preflex]

It's federal law in the US.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[youngone]

This is an extremely American article.

Everywhere else in the western world we have had EFT-POS (or similar) for about thirty years, and we use it.

On a related note the number of Americans who talk about "checks" like it's still the 1960's amazes me.

Having the customer pay the restaurant's staff through tips is just another way they can pretend they're all temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

Re: Cashless = No tips

[Bert64]

Receipts which have been modified by hand using a pen attract extra scrutiny from the tax authorities, as it's trivially easy to forge.

Also if you pay for expenses with cash you effectively lose that money until you get reimbursed, if you pay for it on a card you usually have at least a month interest free before you actually have to pay for it. For insignificant amounts it may not be a problem, for large amounts it certainly can be.

The exchange rates offered for taking cash are usually worse than those offered when paying card, and you have to prepare in advance by carrying enough cash to cover any eventuality, carrying lots of cash around can often be extremely risky and ending up with lots of small change is annoying.

Yes offering multiple payment methods is preferable, but each added payment method adds cost for the retailer and cash is one of the most expensive methods to provide.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[mjwx]

You must not eat in the same restaurant twice. I can only imagine what's happened to your food...

I live in a civilised country where we pay service staff a liveable wage. I'm polite and friendly to service staff so I cant see a problem. This semi-enforced tipping thing seems like a poor way to disguise a price increase and to be frank, rather arse about (short for "arse about face" meaning "one's posterior is pointing in the direction one should expect one's face to be pointing" or put simply, backwards).

Re:Cashless = No tips

[david_thornley]

Which is not the same thing as saying it's done. Lots of employers violate the law, and just fire anyone who complains about illegal treatment.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[david_thornley]

If you don't go to restaurants that expect tips, you avoid the issue (as well as most restaurants in the US). If you go to restaurants that expect tips, and don't tip, you're screwing the staff over. They get a lowered minimum wage out of expectation of tips, and the IRS will assume a certain minimum amount of tipping in their income when they file taxes. You're not bothering the people who have any decision-making power.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[preflex]

So, you're making my point. It's not the customers who want slave labor for free, it's the employers.

Most employers are ignorant of the law. Even more employees are ignorant of the law. And most customers think that servers are getting at least the regular federal minimum wage. The whole system depends on ignorance.

The $2.13/hr is only there so that taxes can be deducted. When I worked at Chili's, I would often get $0.00 paychecks (Wages - Taxes). I used to keep one of my "goose eggs" taped to the back of my ticket book when I was taking orders. The customers were astonished, and often asked me about it.

However, customers usually tip reasonably well, and failure to average at least minimum wage of the course of a pay period was never an issue for me. If it had, you can be sure I would have raised a stink about it.

Refusing to pay, and then firing for complaining about it would be a really expensive idea for employers in my state. They would owe treble damages on the unpaid wages, and also be exposing themselves to a nasty lawsuit for wrongful termination. Go ahead, make my day.

Re:Cashless = No tips

[preflex]

Nope. Nearly every state has exceptions in their minimum wage laws for tipped labor, so your claim that "the employer is obligated to make up the difference" is false.

It is true that some states have higher standards than the federal law (which requires that employers make up the difference up to $7.25), but none of them are lower.

Nothing else you wrote is relevant in any way.

They lose my business

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to disagree with those who assert it is possible to refuse to pay in cash.

When you go out to eat you are being extended credit paid at the end of the meal prior to leaving.

By the time you pay your check you are paying off a debt. They can't refuse payment of that debt in cash.

They can require payment up front in bitcakes or credit corns BEFORE serving you. The second they extend credit in the form of paying after the meal is the second they lose their right not to accept cash.

Re:They lose my business

[Misagon]

Where I live, the practice is that if the restaurant has a sign by the door that they accept only credit/debit cards and you still enter and order, then that counts as a "preexisting agreement" that you are supposed to pay with card.

That's legal wrangling for you but does not work with human behaviour. People miss those signs all the time.

Re:They lose my business

[gravewax]

then all they need to do is make it clear that cash attracts a 20% processing fee.

Re:They lose my business

[Kjella]

Where I live, the practice is that if the restaurant has a sign by the door that they accept only credit/debit cards and you still enter and order, then that counts as a "preexisting agreement" that you are supposed to pay with card. That's legal wrangling for you but does not work with human behaviour. People miss those signs all the time.

As long as they courts are willing to play along, who cares? If they've first established that you're in the wrong, they can act like letting you pay in cash is an act of kindness. Or adds a cash processing fee. If it goes to court they'll just say the agreement was accepted, we made a reasonable attempt at settlement so please slap this person wasting the court's time. It's usually a bad idea to play hardball if you're going to lose...

Re:They lose my business

[minstrelmike]

Yup. The places that really annoy me are the ones that refuse plastic.
They tell me I can use the ATM machine with its processing fee. What a ripoff.

I also see that many of the posters are ignoring the part of the article about the time and cost of money handling, as well as the exposure to theft. All the pot shops have armed guards because all transactions are in cash. Lots of cash. Colorado makes $2 million a month in taxes, all in twenties ;-)

Can you imagine having to count that by hand?

Re:They lose my business

[b0s0z0ku]

There are cash-counting machines, no one really counts it by hand.

Also, what's the big deal about carrying a few $20s for places that refuse fake money?

Re:They lose my business

[EvilSS]

Yea I keep a few hundred hidden in my car for emergencies like this or "woops, forgot my wallet and I'm out of fuel".

Re:They lose my business

[spire3661]

Nope. If you make a genuine offer to pay, and they refuse its 100% a CIVIL matter, cops are powerless. Its only criminal if you try to defraud, which is exactly what the law is labeled in most states.

Re:They lose my business

[EvilSS]

Nope. If you make a genuine offer to pay, and they refuse its 100% a CIVIL matter, cops are powerless. Its only criminal if you try to defraud, which is exactly what the law is labeled in most states.

You be sure to tell the cops that as they put you in the back of the squad car.

Re:They lose my business

[Bert64]

So long as they declare up front what method of payment they accept, then they have no obligation to accept cash.
The fault is yours if you accrue a debt when you know that you'll be unable to repay it.

It does work the other way round, if the restaurant has a mastercard sign on the door and you present a mastercard to pay for the meal but they tell you their card machine is faulty it's not your responsibility to provide cash. I've had that happen a few times with restaurants where they want to take cash (tor tax evasion purposes) so they claim the card machine is faulty... When you point out that's their problem and you're not carrying any cash it usually magically fixes itself.

Re:They lose my business

[HiThere]

I had a card where the chip wouldn't read in some meters. You couldn't tell whether it would or not without trying it. After a bit of hassling they sent me a new card, but it took a couple of weeks. But the thing is, that time it was predictable, after the first trial. No guarantees that the failure mode will always be that considerate.

Re:They lose my business

[QuantumLeaper]

I used to go to a place that there was a CA$H discount, 15% if I remember correctly. It wasn't a restaurant. Since it cost them money no matter if it Plastic or cash to process the bill. I believe they are still in business.

Re: They lose my business

[TristanWibberley]

You mean the courts will disregard statutes regarding payment of debts?

Re: They lose my business

[TristanWibberley]

Why would the police disregard statutes regarding tendering of payment for debts which allow you to do this? The requirement to pay a debt without cash isnt agreed even if there's a signpost so you haven't stolen anything.

Re: They lose my business

[TristanWibberley]

If you tell them you tendered payment in accordance with the law and the restaurant owner has involved them in a civil dispute over the form of the tender of payment. Im sure they'll be like "yeah, we dont arrest people over contract disputes because it wastes our very valuable time and we get lawsuits for wrongful improsonment at best and criminal charges against us at worst". Sometimes they might be like "The signpost says you agree to pay by card" and you'd be like "If it's an agreement then it must be a civil matter and anyway the signpost is a lie they are required by law to receive payment in cash of the right denomination so I've paid just now when I offered cash as per the relevant statutes. They have gifted the cash back to me by saying they wont take it in the way the statute describes they may if and only if they wish to gift it to me". Then the police have a tough job saying you stile anything especially since the statutes say the situation is that you were gifted the money back or gifted the services after a successful payment. How could you steal something that was gifted to you or that you have paid for and were gifted back the money.

Re:They lose my business

[houghi]

If it is clearly indicated, then they are in their rights to do so. I wonder where you live and how much cashless is used. I could see that happening in e.g Sweden or so and the problem would then come from tourists.

The opposite happens as well and perhaps even more. There is no indication that cards are accepted and they still go in with not enough cash and then demand to speak to the manager (you know the hairstyle).

Re:They lose my business

[houghi]

I could imagine that would be illegal. So what they can do instead is say that if you pay with card is get a reduction. So instead of the price going from 100.00 USD to 120.00 USD, the price will go from 120.00 USD to 96.00 USD.
In the US it would even be easier to even the prices out so that it is the same as the sales tax. Then just say "No sales tax to pay if you pay by card". Double wammy as not only people will know what things actually costs, you blame the country for having public services that need to be paid.

Re:They lose my business

[houghi]

There is a difference between falsely saying the machine is broke or the machine being broken. I have been in situations where the machine was actually broken.

In Belgium if they would try that, I would ask for an official receipt (that they need to give anyway) and that way they have to declare it anyway. Or risk of getting caught even sooner. Not willing ton give that? OK, please call the police. See how that works out. I have not only a right, but am forced, by law, to have that receipt with me and they could ask me for it when I leave and am outside. (Does not really happen any more)

So now they have a non-paying customer as they are unwilling to do their part of the transaction AND the police and they will be pissed so they will inform the tax authorities who then will comb over the merchant. He will need to pay a big fine and will be on the radar for the next 5 to 10 years.

Do not try any of this in Belgium if you do not know the law enough to explain t his to the police and/or if you are in a hurry.

Re: They lose my business

[reanjr]

Except you are completely wrong and ignorant about the law. The law says you must accept cash if someone owes you. If you do not accept cash, then that person does not owe you anything but a pile of cash. If you refuse to take the cash, you are refusing payment for your services. None of this applies to credit. No one is forcing you to accept credit for payment.

Re: They lose my business

[reanjr]

I don't think you can say "No sales tax" without bumping up against laws about clear pricing. You have to say something like "We pay the sales tax". Because sales tax is still getting paid, the cost basis for that tax would be a lie if it were presented as "no sales tax".

Re: They lose my business

[reanjr]

There is no processing fee for paying "all debts public and private" with "legal tender". This isn't business, this is monetary policy. Businesses don't just get to make up their own monetary policies.

Re: They lose my business

[TheRaven64]

The term of the debt was that it was for a very short period and that it would be settled with a card. You may be able to argue that they are legally required to accept cash in payment for the debt, but if you are also not agreeing to the terms of the contract then they are free to add additional processing charges and may even simply refer you to a debt collection agency that can handle the cash payment.

Re:They lose my business

[Cederic]

You don't know my friend. He can forget his keys, his phone and his wallet, or any combination thereof, and irrespective of whether he placed them last in his house, on a restaurant table, in someone else's car or anywhere else.

He's a total fuckwit, yes.

Re:They lose my business

[Cederic]

Hang on. I'm having dinner in Belgium on Wednesday and you're telling me it'll be illegal for me to leave the restaurant without the receipt?

What fucked up law is that?

Re:They lose my business

[west]

Yes, I've been to a few countries with stores having signs indicating the law that they *must* give you a receipt and if they fail to do so, you *must* ask for one. It's requiring the citizens to do their part in fighting tax evasion.

Re:They lose my business

[Cederic]

Them giving me a receipt has absolutely fuck all to do with whether I pick it up or take it with me.

Certainly after the coffee I had near Brussels on Tuesday nobody chased me back to my car (or indeed, into Holland) to complain that I'd left the combined bill/receipt on the table.

Along with the money to pay it.

Re:They lose my business

[west]

Perhaps you don't understand.

The government wants to ensure that businesses report all the income they receive. If everyone gets a receipt, then an agent need only make a few purchases, see that those receipts do indeed show up in the books, and has some level of confidence that the merchant is reporting all their receipts.

If receipts were only issued occasionally, then it would be very easy to conceal only the income for which no receipt was issued. If the government can create a culture where people expect to get a receipt, then for many fraud-prone businesses, this line of fraud becomes too much work.

The fact that you don't retain your receipt is immaterial. It's that you must be issued the receipt and the merchant *might* be asked to account for that receipt in his books.

You were part of the enforcement mechanism the moment you received your receipt.

And yes, perhaps you could get in trouble for not asking for a receipt. But since most citizens are compliant and don't feel that tax fraud is in their favour, it's highly likely that there's a high enough rate of compliance that no prosecutions for failure to ask for a receipt are necessary.

Re:They lose my business

[Cederic]

Perhaps I do fucking understand and you're the idiot that didn't read the part to which I was responding:

forced, by law, to have that receipt with me and they could ask me for it when I leave and am outside

Good fucking luck Belgian police trying that one on me.

Re:They lose my business

[david_thornley]

Somebody rifled my car over the weekend. I found a lot of stuff just dumped on the passenger's seat, and the driver's door not fully closed. The most valuable thing was my snowbrush, but I suspect if I'd kept cash it would have disappeared.

Re: They lose my business

[thesupraman]

No, just about 100% no.
1 - There are no terms, BECAUSE YOU DID NOT ENTER IN TO A DAMN CONTRACT. Them simply having a sign which you may or may not have seen is NOT a contract, and never will be. For it to be a contract they must verify that you have seen and agreed to it.
2 - They cannot just make up extra parts to this fantasy contract to penalise you further for it.
3 - It would not be legal anyway, because the law says so. In the same way that they cannot put a sign saying 'no gays allowed in our restaurant!'

Re: They lose my business

[TheRaven64]

There are no terms, BECAUSE YOU DID NOT ENTER IN TO A DAMN CONTRACT. Them simply having a sign which you may or may not have seen is NOT a contract, and never will be. For it to be a contract they must verify that you have seen and agreed to it.

In any common-law jurisdiction, the legal definition of a valid contract simply evidence of 'a meeting of minds'. There is a large body of case law regarding signs, particularly in the case of parking on private property. If there is a sign saying 'parking $5/hour' and you park, then you are assumed by law to have agreed to pay $5 for each hour that you park. From the perspective of a court, a contract has been agreed and if you don't pay then you are legally in breach of contract.

They cannot just make up extra parts to this fantasy contract to penalise you further for it.

They don't have to. A contract exists and there is statute law regarding breach of contract if the debt is not settled according to the terms of the contract. The common case would be to simply refer you to a debt collection agency, who will crap on your credit record and charge you the fee and take you to court if you don't pay. Unless you can convince a court that a reasonable person (in legal terminology) would not have seen the sign, then you will lose. If you try to argue that the contract is illegal then the other side's barrister will ask you if you saw the sign and were aware of the terms and entered with the intent to disregard them and then sit down content in the knowledge that you've just agreed to pay his legal fees.

It would not be legal anyway, because the law says so. In the same way that they cannot put a sign saying 'no gays allowed in our restaurant!'

The law does not say no. If it did, barter and commodities trading would be illegal. It's perfectly acceptable for me to offer to sell you 5 tons of flax in exchange for 12 tons of wheat. If I deliver you 5 tons of flax and you then say 'oh, actually, I don't have any wheat' then the law says that I am required to accept cash for the settlement of the debt, but it also allows me to take you to court for breach of contract, or allow you to settle out of court for a fee. A contract requiring payment by credit card is exactly the same kind of transaction. If you aren't able to pay in the form defined by the contract, then you are in breach of contract and can either pay a fee to settle out of court, or you can go to court and pay a lot more.

Putting a sign up saying 'no gays' is only not permitted because of explicit anti-discrimination legislation and has no relevance to a simple breach of contract with legally permitted terms. Putting up a sign saying 'no jeans, no trainers' is completely allowed, for example.

Re: They lose my business

[EvilSS]

There is no law that requires a business to accept any specific form of payment so the rest of your argument is moot. Also you should review those laws you think you know. They are heavily tilted to the business owners.

Re:They lose my business

[nukenerd]

Somebody rifled my car over the weekend. ... I suspect if I'd kept cash it would have disappeared.

I keep about 25 GBP in my car and would not care much about it if taken by someone who broke in. Have you any idea what it costs to repair a broken car window or door? The 25 GBP is at the noise level in the total. Insurance? - they'll get it back off you somehow.

Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[SmaryJerry]

Cash costs money but credit cards take a lot more depending on the size of the purchase.

Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[known_coward_69]

cards take less than 5%

cash you need to pay people to count it, pick it up, do the bookkeeping, account for theft and pay the bank to accept your deposit

Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[Kjella]

Cash costs money but credit cards take a lot more depending on the size of the purchase.

Indeed, because they add a lot of services into that "credit" side of it like for example travel insurance and kickbacks where customers appear to be "saving" money. In Europe there's actually a lot of alternative debit card systems run by the banks, like here in Norway there's "BankAxept". In Germany they have "Girocard". Without all the bells and whistles here in Norway at least they pay roughly $0.02/transaction, which is way below the cost of actually handling cash. So honestly, the only reason businesses accept cash here is because they must. The moment the law changes and they're not required to I imagine very many businesses will go cashless. So if you're thinking cashless won't happen because companies won't accept it, well you're wrong. Really the only compelling argument is that in a real emergency society would collapse if people couldn't pay for basic necessities, so everyone should have a cash reserve. But it's like fire insurance on your house, hopefully you'll never ever need it.

Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[b0s0z0ku]

This is not far-fetched in the US at all. See also, widespread blackouts and telecomm outages in 2012 after Hurricane Sandy. 2003 Northeast blackout. And that's just one decade, in one part of the country.

Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[gravewax]

costs nothing, what fucking world do you live in? My parents used to pay thousands to accept cash. The armoured vans that did the cash pickup alone cost more than the credit card fees, insurance to have cash on premises was also around 20% premium when they used to run their business. Then you had the loss through teller mistakes/mishandling/theft as well as the cost of someone collecting and accounting for it all. Cash is EXPENSIVE to process.

Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[currently_awake]

Cash is also expensive for people. Trips to the bank, having to plan your week in advance so you have sufficient cash, lost and stolen money.

Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[apoc.famine]

Counting. Change. Sure, it doesn't take that much time. But it's an activity that you do over, and over, and over, and over....

Counting out and tallying drawers. Yes, only once or twice a day, maybe twice per shift at most. But that adds up, shift after shift, after shift.

Counting and tallying deposits. Again, not all the time, but at the end of every shift, every day, counting it up all by hand, tallying it all, filling out the slip, etc.

Cash takes up so much staff time, it's really ridiculous. I definitely get how 3% fees for credit cards is a better deal for most businesses.

Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[Squirmy McPhee]

Indeed, because they add a lot of services into that "credit" side of it like for example travel insurance and kickbacks where customers appear to be "saving" money. In Europe there's actually a lot of alternative debit card systems run by the banks, like here in Norway there's "BankAxept". In Germany they have "Girocard". Without all the bells and whistles here in Norway at least they pay roughly $0.02/transaction, which is way below the cost of actually handling cash. So honestly, the only reason businesses accept cash here is because they must.

Perhaps that's true in Norway, but I don't think that generalizes to all of Europe. It certainly has not been my experience in France or (especially) Belgium. In Belgium I always make sure I'm carrying double the cash I think I need and I stop at the ATM every chance I get, because they don't have them on every corner like in some parts of the world. Even many of the businesses that are not cash-only will only accept cards that work on the local Bancontact network, which means that if you don't have cash you have to have a Belgian bank account, and some charge an extra percentage or require a minimum purchase (10€ is common) if you want to pay by card. Up until a few years ago you couldn't even buy a train ticket from an automated kiosk without cash or a Belgian bank card! That's been changing a bit over the last five years, especially in the bigger cities, but I don't know anywhere in Belgium that prefers plastic over cash.

Big cities in France are not quite so extreme as that, largely because they have so many foreign tourists, I think, but the countryside can be much the same as Belgium. Even in central Paris, though, I always ask what their minimum is before I try to pay by card. Even the big grocery chains have one, though it is usually only 1€.

Then contrast that with China, where at least in urban areas they've gone from a largely cash-based system to mobile-phone-based payments in a very short time, practically skipping plastic altogether....

Re: Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[TheRaven64]

A few years ago there was an article on Slashdot that looked at all of the costs. For very small businesses, cash was a clear winner. For large businesses, which are big enough to be paying less than the 3% that you pay for low-volume transaction rates accepting cards, credit cards were a clear winner. The cut-off point where cards were cheaper was much lower than I'd expect, and below the turnover for most shops and restaurants.

Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[Kjella]

In Belgium (...) many of the businesses that are not cash-only will only accept cards that work on the local Bancontact network

Yes, this is the situation in most of Europe today, there's a national system and they let VISA/MasterCard/AmEx etc. deal with foreigners either by forcing you to visit an ATM, just eating the cost because it's a so small part of their business it's not worth bothering with or it's a tourist place with tourist prices where they just factor it into the overhead. Clearly if they wanted to go cashless there would have to be a better way to for foreign visitors to get into the national "eCash" system. Which wouldn't be that hard, just set up a way to issue such cards on international hubs and border crossings that'd be kinda like Visa Electron, online-only debit cards. The government would probably tie them to foreign passports to curb them from being used as anonymous domestic quasi-cash by passing them around, but even if they didn't they'd keep a much better track of the money flow than today.

Yes, I know many smaller businesses would like cash to pocket a bit of money on the side but I think the big chains, large consumer products and high end market would jump on it. Maybe the burger store on the corner but if you want a burger from McD or Burger King would love cashless, less risk of theft or embezzlement. Same thing with Wal-Mart. Those selling TVs and washing machines probably too, they don't want to sit on the cash from big ticket expenses. I think this would quickly become a snowballing practice, a few stores/shops start encouraging/pressuring consumers to get electronic and then a few more stores and a few more consumers until that is suddenly the norm.

Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[skids]

This does not jive with what some of the mom-and-pop cash-only business owners around here have told me. Merchant fees on CC processing are their main reason for not taking cards. The restaurants surveyed must be pretty friggin high-volume, have accounts at suck-ass banks, and be operating in crime-ridden areas.

Also making change is often faster than waiting for the transaction delay while processing cards if you are connected by POTS.

Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[Ksevio]

Restaurants are unlikely to be open if the power's out though.

Re:Credit Cards Charge Fees Too

[mjwx]

cards take less than 5%

cash you need to pay people to count it, pick it up, do the bookkeeping, account for theft and pay the bank to accept your deposit

Which costs a lot less than 5%.

Also, when you've got a business account, deposits are free unless you live in a shonky third world country with no banking regulations. If you're willing to pay for it, you can get it picked up from your business. I owned a business back in the early 00's, cash was simple. I'd count it, I'd stick it in an envelope with the deposit slip and drop it through the deposit box on my way home (back in those days, banks shut at 16:45 on the dot or earlier). It would appear in my account within 24 hours... which was 24-36 hours sooner than credit transactions. This is why maintaining a OPEX reserve is important.

A large food court near me decided to do this cashless thing. They've lost about 20% of their business since then and it's still declining. Meanwhile, restaurants around them charging in whole pounds (Sterling, you know, Doctor Who money) have been experiencing an uptick in sales.

The real question

[king neckbeard]

The real question was never whether or not dealing with cash costs money and causes hassles. It's how those costs compare to merchant fees and securing your POS, and how much leverage is created by a process not dictated by Visa and Mastercard. It's a complex and fragile equation that, in practice, ultimately boils down to accepting any form of payment that still has a decent enough market share ot be worth accepting.

Re:The real question

[TheRaven64]

There are lots of merchant banks that allow you to accept cards. For very low volume transactions, you can get a 3% rate. If you're putting a lot through, most will offer you a better deal and they will compete with each other for your business.

Failing electronic system

[Sigma 7]

I've seen enough stories where the restaurant has a fault with their credit card system, and thus has an extremely long delay in processing them (assuming that they still get processed.)

If there's any major failure, which will happen when an ice storm causes scattered outages across the city, the restaurant has no way to receive income. Either they accept cash, or they don't get the day's income.

I've also went into a fast food restaurant which also had a cash register failure. They still did business using pen-and-paper, taking payments in cash, and thus didn't have to close down. Even if slightly slower or less reliable, it's as if the cashiers knew how to handle the situation.

Re:Failing electronic system

[mentil]

They can use something like Square as a stopgap for those situations. There are dedicated cellular modems you can plug into your network to provide redundancy, as well.

Re:Failing electronic system

[guruevi]

Even though that has been stated many times, VISA and MC both have clear requirements for merchants during outages and downtime. You should be able to take the card as long as your POS system has power - the transaction will process later, you can call their call-centers by phone to process a purchase, you can write the card number on a special form and then process it later (or remember back when they had those slide-things, they still have those for embossed cards).

The problem is obviously your volume/throughput will suffer if you end up doing that and your employees need training. It's either that or you let your customers walk through with stuff unpaid, if there is a VISA/MC sticker and they don't WANT to process the card, VISA/MC says their customers have the right to treat it just like you wouldn't accept cash and the customers can actually complain to their CC company and they'll get a fine too.

Re:Failing electronic system

[jordanjay29]

That's assuming the towers are operational.

Re:Failing electronic system

[Sigma 7]

Yes, you could also try Google Wallet, Apple Pay, Bitcoin, or any other system. No number of alternative electronic systems protect against major outages. If Visa goes down for an entire country (which did happen), things like Square also stop working. If you have a disaster that destroys all electronic infrastructure as it happened with Puerto Rico, nothing electronic functions as a suitable backup.

You never want your business to fail from just one point of failure, and in this case, it's the electronic payment network.

Re:Failing electronic system

[mentil]

The point is that these outages are rare enough in certain places that it's cheaper overall to go cashless. Sure, if you live in a country where the electric grid is down 18 hours a day, cashless might not be for you (although if it's completely cellular-based, it might yet be). Where I live, I haven't lost electricity in a few years, and it was only for a few minutes when I did. Remember also that if you have a robbery, that might interrupt service, require you to count new tills before you can take anyone's cash, etc.
I've seen a till be hung up for an hour while it's counted and recounted in front of a customer who insists they were shortchanged. Cash is no magic bullet with zero viscosity.

Re:Failing electronic system

[edtice1559]

(or remember back when they had those slide-things, they still have those for embossed cards).

Apparently, they are supposed to still have these and, if the card is embossed, use it if the chip and the mag stripe both fail. https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/... The merchant takes on less liability if they do this instead of just writing out the number.

Re:Failing electronic system

[edtice1559]

Can't they just make an imprint of the chip in my card?

No they can't "imprint the chip" but there are procedures for handling this. https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/... Start reading around page 25

Re:Failing electronic system

[houghi]

Embossed cards are on their way out in Belgium. Some look like this hereThere is nothing embossed and not even a way to swipe. I have not seen a slider here in decades.

And no, even if there is a VISA/MC you are NOT allowed to walk out with the store if they are unable or even unwilling to accept your card for whatever reason. That would be theft and will put you in jail.

Not even talking about the fact that it might not be them who placed the sticker there, but e.g. you or a previous owner. There are two things that are working at the same time:
1) The contract between the store owner and Visa/MC (or most likely a third party as Visa/MC seldom handle the transaction themselves). That one can be revoked if they do not accept their part of the contract. e.g. accepting people who want to pay with a card.
2) The law. Where it is between you and the store where, if you buy an item, you must pay.

I have gone into a store once (in 20 or so years) and when I wanted to pay, it did not work due to technical issues on side of the store. They told me before I walked out and I had to put back my items or pay cash. If you are in a restaurant and they do not inform you and suddenly the machine does not work anymore, it will depend form situation to situation.
There are several things they can do and all these depend on the reason. Assume there machine suddenly fell into the sink.
1) Pay with my bank app. They could accept payment over SEPA. They will have their money 3 days later. They have the risk that I cancel it as soon as I am outside.
2) Pay with the bank over SEPA with immediate payment. They take the extra charge. Not smart as this only works during banking hours.
3) Believe me that I will come back with the money. That could mean leaving behind something, like my passport, drivers license or my wife or kids.
4) Escort me to a teller machine or any other place I could get cash

As these happen so infrequently, it is not really an issue and will be handled if and when it happens.

But again: you can not just walk away just because MC/VISA says so. They might not have a (direct) contract with them anyway and more important, they can not change the law. Walking out could get you a night in jail or worse.

Re:Failing electronic system

[johnw]

(or remember back when they had those slide-things, they still have those for embossed cards)

The last time I bought a new car, I tried to pay for it with my bank debit card. I had pre-authorised the transaction with my bank, as had the car dealership, but the electronic terminal simply refused to put it through.

In the end they used their old-fashioned slide-thing, which seemed a bit weird but it worked.

Re:Failing electronic system

[TheRaven64]

I've seen enough stories where the restaurant has a fault with their credit card system, and thus has an extremely long delay in processing them

And you've seen these stories because they were news: i.e. they were unusual things. How many times have you actually seen it happen? My local shop had this happen a few weeks ago, but it was just after they upgraded their POS system (to one that really is a POS system, in all senses of the term) and it was the first time in a decade I'd seen a technical problem prevent a shop from accepting cards. The same problem also meant that they couldn't easily accept cash, because failure was in their POS system and not the bank network.

Re:Failing electronic system

[bobbutts]

If there's any connection to the internet, blockchain based currencies will still work. They don't rely on a centralized service like the CC processors.

Re:Failing electronic system

[Sigma 7]

How many times have you actually seen it happen?

As I stated in my original post, I've seen it happen once. The fast food cashiers still knew how to handle cash, and it didn't hit the news because it wasn't newsworthy to actually appear on the news. "Breaking news: Some random fast food location had trouble with its PoS PoS, but was still able to conduct business."

For major things, like the bank network going down or Puerto Rico suffering from Hurricane Maria, that will hit the news because it has major consequences.

Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

If they make that clear before the fact, I walk out.
If they only make that clear when I'm ready to pay, I tip a penny. In cash.

Screw businesses that don't care about customers' privacy and anonymity.

Re:Depends...

[ArchieBunker]

I don't think big brother cares how many times you eat at Burger King and Chipotle. Do you also wear a disguise in public?

Re:Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

I don't want to live in a society where our location is tracked 24/7/365 whenever we buy food, gas, or other necessities. Cash = the ability for people to go off the grid and maintain their privacy.

I don't want to do business with anyone who's doing their part to erode that ability. Thus, I'll vote with my cash and pay cash.

It's not that I personally care about it, but I want to live in a world where people can run away and drop out of sight. It's an important safety valve against authoritarianism.

Re:Depends...

[camperdave]

Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard

Murray doesn't know many loan sharks.

Re:Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

As far as "Big Brother" caring, what if hellth insurance companies (misspelling deliberate) start buying purchase data from credit card companies and restaurants? Eat at Burger King more than 2x last month? Cha-ching! Cha-ching! "Unhealthy diet surcharge."

Don't underestimate the ability of the corporatist state to control people's lives. Having all purchases tracked, tabulated, and stuck in a database increases that ability.

Re:Depends...

[mentil]

Screw businesses that don't care about customers' privacy and anonymity.

You can use only stolen credit cards. Problem solved.

Re:Depends...

[mentil]

Actually, I'd like a Google Maps hack showing everyone nearby who has eaten at Chipotle in the last 3 days (ok who am I kidding, 36 hours) so I can stay way the hell away.

Re:Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

Where one lives is a matter of public record (property ownership record). Where one goes outside their home or travels to is not, but it will be if cash is done away with.

As far as a cell phone, I often don't carry mine when I leave the house, or leave it turned off/in airplane mode.

And yes, there are people (mainly illegal immigrants) that pay rent, get paid, basically do everything in cash. I'm thankful to them for maintaining the cash economy in the US, thus maintaining some small sliver of anonymity and privacy for the rest of us.

Re:Depends...

[jordanjay29]

Says the person with a registered account on Slashdot.

Re:Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

Not really. I can go out today without carrying a cell phone and pay cash for virtually anything. My movements outside my home may be filmed, but in the absence of a crime, won't be correlated with an identity. On the other hand, if cash goes away, there will be a hard record that John Q. Smith of 125 Main St. bought lunch at this location, bought gas there, had a drink here after work, buys alcohol 5x per week, frequented this marijuana dispensary, etc. A boon for divorce lawyers, if nothing else.

Re:Depends...

[jordanjay29]

You can easily find them by their smell, and sometimes by their frequency of hospital ER visits for e. coli infections.

Re:Depends...

[jordanjay29]

It's not like they check your ID or anything these days.

Re:Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

My choice to set up or delete the account. It's not required to live, unlike food or groceries.

Re: Depends...

[dhjdhj]

Except for the morality police...you know, the religious nuts who consider that they (through their voting) do actually have the right to control what you are allowed to do.

Re:Depends...

[Falos]

I don't think big brother cares
The device you sent that with is called a computer.

It isn't limited by feelings.

Re:Depends...

[apoc.famine]

Or mobsters. It's not personal, it's business....

Re:Depends...

[mentil]

The merchant agreement actually forbids that. They can only check signatures. Oh wait, they got rid of signatures, too...

Re:Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

Not in a city where 10-20% of the residents are illegal immigrants or otherwise unbanked. I fit right in.

Re: Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

Because having "disconnected" time to think and enjoy the world is fun. I don't WANT to be reachable 24/7/365 -- I need alone time away from technology and other people.

Re:Depends...

[jordanjay29]

Merchants can choose whether or not to accept signatures. But yeah, all the security associated with cards is slowly evaporating.

Re:Depends...

[cyn1c77]

I don't want to live in a society where our location is tracked 24/7/365 whenever we buy food, gas, or other necessities. Cash = the ability for people to go off the grid and maintain their privacy.

I don't want to do business with anyone who's doing their part to erode that ability. Thus, I'll vote with my cash and pay cash.

It's not that I personally care about it, but I want to live in a world where people can run away and drop out of sight. It's an important safety valve against authoritarianism.

How do you get your cash? From a bank ATM? That tracks you?

If you really want to go incognito, get a fake credit identity and burner phone to start playing with the big boys.

Using cash and not having a cell phone actually makes you stand out like a sore thumb nowadays.

Re:Depends...

[b0s0z0ku]

using the ATM tracks my location once a week or so, not hourly or daily. using cash is remarkably common in a city (thankfully) with quite a few illegal immigrants and a lot of cash only/credit minimum businesses. using cash makes me seem blue collar, doesn't stick out at all.

Re:Depends...

[cascadingstylesheet]

It's not that I personally care about it, but I want to live in a world where people can run away and drop out of sight. It's an important safety valve against authoritarianism.

I would like that too, but good luck with that. You can't legally work without identifying yourself and your employer sending data about you to the federal government. That ship has sailed.

Reasons...

[b0s0z0ku]

Other reasons for this: (1) Classism. "We don't want poor or immigrant customers who don't have a credit card or check card. We cater to millennial hipsters only." Good to know. (2) Bribery. There was an article last year about a major credit card company paying businesses $10,000 to go cashless. Good on Chicago for thinking about regulating this and Massachusetts for actually regulating cashfree businesses out of existence. Nice to see that some jurisdictions actually stand up for their constituents' privacy.

Re:Reasons...

[iggymanz]

I think you're making up sound bites. reality is that you can buy a major credit card companies gift card for $5 and up and it works like a credit card. oh look, poor people can go cashless too. guess you'll have to go back to twitter for more ideas on something to whine about

Re:Reasons...

[b0s0z0ku]

Why should you have to go through an additional fuckin step if you're poor or wish to maintain your privacy?

Re:Reasons...

[guruevi]

It's the same thing as demanding a jacket/classy attire to enter certain restaurants. Yeah, they won't allow homeless people in.

Also, poor people generally have EBT cards which they can use and if you cater to millennial hipsters, you generally aren't catering to the poor anyway, you're selling $35 rolls of sushi.

Re:Reasons...

[b0s0z0ku]

Exactly why I applaud MA and Chicago for making poor and/or privacy-conscious people's lives slightly easier. Kudos!

Re:Reasons...

[ArchieBunker]

You seem to be the only person concerned about this. Was your aluminum foil purchased with cash as well?

Re:Reasons...

[PopeRatzo]

Other reasons for this: (1) Classism. "We don't want poor or immigrant customers who don't have a credit card or check card. We cater to millennial hipsters only."

Except the data shows those "millennial hipsters" prefer paying in cash. I mean, it's right in the summary.

"For starters, upscale Millennials -- among the most coveted of diners because of their youth and affluence -- prefer to pay in cash, according to Bankrate.com data. "

Re:Reasons...

[jordanjay29]

Prepaid cards often have setup fees and other pitfalls accompanied with them. It's not exactly a 1:1 cash to card transfer, and those fees predominantly hit people who have less money to begin with.

Re:Reasons...

[b0s0z0ku]

Plenty of people are concerned about the long-term effects of a cashless society... Even the Swedes are getting "red pilled" about the issue.

Re:Reasons...

[Powercntrl]

Except the data shows those "millennial hipsters" prefer paying in cash. I mean, it's right in the summary.

I would've assumed it would be aging Boomers and Gen-X'ers who would be clinging to their cash. It's so bizarre that the most digitally connected generation, is using the most archaic form of payment.

Though, I guess I can't be too shocked - I still get cashiers looking at me like I'm using voodoo magic when I use Apple pay.

Re:Reasons...

[b0s0z0ku]

Don't know -- a lot of millennials came of age during the credit/foreclosure bust of 2007-2010. Might have been a hard lesson to see their parents lose their home due to credit over-extension.

Re:Reasons...

[WaffleMonster]

I would've assumed it would be aging Boomers and Gen-X'ers who would be clinging to their cash. It's so bizarre that the most digitally connected generation, is using the most archaic form of payment.

Though, I guess I can't be too shocked - I still get cashiers looking at me like I'm using voodoo magic when I use Apple pay.

Technology is a means to an end not an end on to itself.

--
#DeleteFacebook
rm -rf AS32934

Re:Reasons...

[HiThere]

They also have requirements for identification at point of purchase. I don't know whether those are enforced or not, though.

Re:Reasons...

[Rockoon]

I would've assumed it would be aging Boomers and Gen-X'ers who would be clinging to their cash.

Instead they are drowning in their credit card debt.

Re:Reasons...

[houghi]

Where I live, the poor immigrant can and will have a bank account and thus a debit card. Could be that he is not allowed to use it if there is no money on the account. I know rich people who have that enabled on their card as well.
As far as I know each country in Europe has at least one financial institution that can not refuse to open a bank account, no matter how poor they are. That does not mean they are allowed any credit, just that they are allowed to have a bank account, so they can pay bills. In Belgium that would be at the post office.

So income is not an issue. It is a choice.

So the problem seems to be is that those people are unable (not unwilling) to get a card. Why not solve that problem. You can still refuse cashless when it comes to people who are unwilling, regardless if they are poor or rich, immigrant or not.

Next to that is the privacy issue. In Belgium the CC company is not allowed to analyze the expenditure and a lot more rules concerning privacy.

What you might be referring to would be the illegal immigrant. That is a whole different situation.

So why not address the real issue: the lack of privacy. That would solve a lot more problems than just the "cashless or not" issue as that does not seem to be the problem.

Re:Reasons...

[iggymanz]

oh, "regular" people get their credit cards easier? having to have proof of income, etc.

you have no point

Re:Reasons...

[iggymanz]

nope, you only need cash. I've bought them for coworkers for gifts which is their main use. what purpose does ID serve when the buyer isn't the user?

really, you're making stuff up that isn't true. let's stick with facts

Re:Reasons...

[jordanjay29]

When did I talk about requiring ID for cc gift cards? You might be replying to the wrong post, or you're reading things that aren't there.

Re:Reasons...

[iggymanz]

no setup fees, you can buy a $25 gift credit card for $25 cash. I've done it.

losing cash has the same problem as no theft protection. no loss for the poor, quit making up things to whine about, there are none. Twitter SWJ retard mentality doesn't stand up to logic.

Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time

[raymorris]

> They can require payment up front in bitcakes or credit corns BEFORE serving you.

> By the time you pay your check you are paying off a debt.
> They can't refuse payment of that debt in cash.

Exactly. Before giving you the food they can say "we're not going to give you food until you give us a card.". Afterwards, if they don't like your payment offer, what can they do? They could sue you - and you could pay the judgement in cash :) The judge would be annoyed with them, so you'd be sure to countersue for wasting your time with a frivolous suit. The judge would probably enjoy having them pay YOU since they were being dumbasses.

Re:Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Afterwards, if they don't like your payment offer, what can they do? They could sue you - and you could pay the judgement in cash :)

They sue you. You cite the legal tender laws. They lose.

The law, as I understand it, is this:
  - You agree to a purchase denominated in dollars.
  - They deliver on their side, creating a debt on your side.
  - You offer payment in Federal Reserve Notes.
  - They either:
          1) Accept the payment, settling the debt.
          2) Refuse the payment. The debt is cancelled because they refused to accept payment in Federal Reserve Notes.

This we settled (with some governmental violence against people who didn't want to accept FRNs) about a century ago, when FRNs were first introduced. Lots of people who expected payment in real gold and silver coins, made of amounts of valuable metal approximating their face value, or paper notes giving a government promise of on-demand exchange for the equivalent value in silver, didn't want to take bank-generated paper money backed by nothing but the government's promise to make people accept it. So the Federal Government had to force a bunch of people to accept it until they gave up and played along.

The Federal Government has a strong incentive to keep enforcing the rule. Otherwise the system (which lets them skirt constitutional prohibitions and print fiat currency by proxy) falls apart, along with the economy built around it.

Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time

[dskoll]

https://www.federalreserve.gov... A private business does not have to accept cash, unless a State law exists specifying that.

Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is paying for a resturaunt check "payment for service" and not "offer of payment of debt to a creditor"?

Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time

[TristanWibberley]

No. If you presented the cash the judge would order that you had tendered payment as per the statutes and that the restaurant had gifted the cash back to you.

Re:Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next time

[thegarbz]

They deliver on their side, creating a debt on your side

False. The financial definition of debt is exclusive to the action of borrowing. Just because you have a contractual obligation to pay created by a sale doesn't mean you're in debt.

All they can do is go to court and sue you for failure to fulfil your side of the purchasing contract.

If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[RhettLivingston]

I hate it when I get cash because I don't have an easy way to get rid of it. I bank with an online bank and have no means of depositing it. I have no cash in my wallet or coins in my pocket and haven't in ages. If forced to take change for some reason, I just tell the cashier to apply it to the next person's bill.

I've not seen a business that was cash only in years, but if one were, I wouldn't consider patronizing them.

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[b0s0z0ku]

Bank with a community bank/credit union; they'd be happy to take your deposits. Many have deals that allow you to use different banks' ATMs for free, so you can deposit and withdraw as needed.

Or just spend the cash the next time you buy groceries or whatever, what's the issue. You have to buy food, gas, etc at some point, right?

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[EvilSS]

I hate it when I get cash because I don't have an easy way to get rid of it

You don't have easy access to recycling bins or trash cans where you live?

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[Powercntrl]

I hate it when I get cash because I don't have an easy way to get rid of it.

You'd never know this was a technology site, with all the luddites bellyaching over the possibility of businesses not accepting greenbacks. Personally, I find the inverse far more frustrating: when a business will only accept payment in cash. Though, with the advent of Square and PayPal, a business which truly accepts only cash has become rare indeed.

Personally, I find cash to be too limiting. You can't spend it online, you have to manually track your purchases, you have to verify that you've been given correct change, it can be easily lost/stolen, and it offers no buyer protection. Unless you're tinfoil-hat-level paranoid about "big brother" tracking you, there's no good reason to use cash.

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[RhettLivingston]

I guess that's what giving it to the person behind me is, recycling.

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[b0s0z0ku]

For offline purchases, cash is great. Unless you're completely innumerate (unlikely in the Slashdot crowd), correct change is easy to verify. You can even pay them in a way that allows change in whole dollars or at least quarters.

Once the transaction is done, it's done. No entering tip amounts incorrectly by on-purpose accident, so you get billed $20 more on your credit card statement than you intended to pay at the restaurant.

You also know exactly how much you're spending -- the physical indicator of spending is nice, and spending money hurts a bit. As it should.

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[Powercntrl]

Unless you're completely innumerate (unlikely in the Slashdot crowd), correct change is easy to verify.

Would you rather be in a checkout line of people who are going to tap their NFC card/cellphone against a reader, grab their receipt, and leave, or stand there and count their change? Start-to-finish, cash transactions just take longer. It may not inconvenience you, but it might be inconveniencing the people waiting on you.

so you get billed $20 more on your credit card statement than you intended to pay at the restaurant.

While I'm not discounting the possibility of that happening, I've personally never experienced it. I have, however, on numerous occasions been shortchanged by servers who weren't paying attention, when paying in cash. If I have the option, I'll use a restaurant's smartphone app to pay the check (which completes the total + tip purchase as a single transaction).

You also know exactly how much you're spending

I can log into my bank and know what I'm spending on my debit card. Unless I was keeping a ledger, cash just disappears and I'm left wondering what happened to it. It's far easier to look at my purchase history and think "Gee, perhaps I'm spending a bit too much on sushi", rather than look at my empty wallet and assume "High gas prices. Has to be. There's no way I eat that much sushi!"

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[Dutch Gun]

It's technically illegal to deface or destroy money.

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[b0s0z0ku]

I really don't care either way about the line. I'll wait an extra 15 seconds to keep my privacy. If other people can't, they need to chill and toke a J.

Smartphone app? Restaurant? I don't go to the kind of restaurants that are likely to have an app (national chains).

For me, it's a lot more painful to pull out cash than sign a check. As it should me. Spending money should hurt.

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[houghi]

Do not come to Belgium then, because as a tourist you will not be able to go to many cafe's and that is part of why you should come to Belgium.
Also not Spain. Many cafe's I have seen do not have anything but cash.
Glass of wine where I go (Galicia) is around 1 EUR.

About the coins: the people like getting free money. Just buy something for 1 EUR and give them the smallest money in paper, which is 5 EUR and just walk away. They will be confused, but hardly force the money on you.

I also bank online. With the opening hours for banks there really is no other way. I even have a bank in another country and have no issues to get the money where I live as I have a debit card and can go to an Automatic ATM Machine.
There are plenty of ATM's wherever I go to get money from the wall for free. Sometimes, when I am in a different country, I get a warning that I would need to pay a fee. I walk to the next place and get it for free there.

So the issue seems to be that either your online bank does not give you a debit card or you need to pay if you take money from the ATM.

Re:If cash were required, I couldn't go there

[skids]

Would you rather be in a checkout line of people who are going to tap their NFC card/cellphone against a reader, grab their receipt, and leave

You forgot the "wait 15-30 seconds while the PoS system does it's thing". Especially the chip cards slow things down. With an experienced cashier and and experienced non-senescent cash customer, cash is actually really fast.

Now, there might be a clear advantage if they could tie the customer loyalty cards in so we didn't have to wait for the assholes in front of us to type in their phone number because they never carry that card (my gut tells me these must be the very same people who get bent out of shape about 1 extra item in the express lane taking 0.5 seconds extra to scan.) Since the CC-everywhere users obviously do not care for their privacy anyway, that shouldn't be a problem for them.

I AM Canadian!

[camperdave]

Restaurant owners say ordering is faster from customers who slap down plastic instead of dollars...

I am Canadian. When I slap down money, it IS plastic.

Re:I AM Canadian!

[jordanjay29]

Your Loonies and Toonies, too, eh?

Re:I AM Canadian!

[dohzer]

Welcome to the polymer note club, Canada! ;)
Do you guys have a tipping system like the US?

Re:I AM Canadian!

[mjwx]

Your Loonies and Toonies, too, eh?

I honestly cant see why not in the future. The main reasons we stick with metals is that they're harder to forge (as in both metallurgy and fraud) and tradition (we've always had metal coins). However introducing a wireless induction induction loop with a chip could be a better anti-fraud system. We'd probably still coat them in a metallic coating for aesthetics.

So what's the plan

[nehumanuscrede]

when dinner is finished, you hand your card to the wait staff and it's denied ?

I'm sorry, I don't have another card. Do you take cash ?

I prefer to use cash because every card compromise I've ever had ( including the latest chip cards ) have been wait staff at restaurants who simply copied what they needed from my card.

( They do it with gift cards too so use low denomination varieties so it gets used up in one go )

I don't have these issues with cash.

Re:So what's the plan

[aaarrrgggh]

Using my watch for payment has kind of changed how I look at small transactions with the credit card. No pesky need to sign anything. I just hope the US catches up on contactless/ApplePay ubiquity like the rest of the world.

For businesses, just keep one cash drawer active rather than two or three. Good contingency.

Re:So what's the plan

[Powercntrl]

when dinner is finished, you hand your card to the wait staff and it's denied ?

You run out of the restaurant as fast as you can. Then you get your broke ass to Walmart and buy a box of ramen, because your finances are seriously screwed if you're dining out with a maxed out credit card.

Re:So what's the plan

[b0s0z0ku]

Depends what's going on with the card -- it could be "maxed out" due to fraud or other issues.

Re:So what's the plan

[Powercntrl]

it could be "maxed out" due to fraud or other issues.

I'd imagine most reputable banks will try to call if they suspect unusual activity on the card. I actually experienced this the first time I went on a business trip with a new AmEx card. My phone started ringing even before the waiter came back to tell me the card was declined. Told 'em the transaction was authorized, and told the waiter to go ahead and run it again.

I suppose without a cell phone that would've been a frustrating experience, but anyone living without a cell phone in an era devoid of payphones probably is used to being on the path of most resistance, by now.

Re:So what's the plan

[b0s0z0ku]

Translation: I'm too Kentishly lazy to be arsed to deal with change, and screw the small merchants/traders.

Re:So what's the plan

[houghi]

That will be 99.99999% of the cases and that is rounded down. The indication on the screen will not always give you the correct reason why it has been declined. Sometimes it will not be an issue and can be solved somehow. You know, like adults.
That is unless you start yelling and insisting and what not. Then, most likely, the police will come and they will often side with the owner. You took goods, you must pay and we do not trust you to leave the store and come back, so you come with us for the night and we solve this tomorrow. In most cases suddenly a solution will present itself.

I once had an issue where I pumped gas, went in to pay and neither my VISA, nor MC nor debit card worked. Debit was times wrong PIN. CC was an issue with my bank. Easily solved. I left my ID there and went back a few hours later when the issue with all my cards was solved.

The problem was on my side. Could have been solved the same way if it where on their side. Being polite and understanding for each other solved this. I even went out of the line when another person came and not stress out the employee and others by standing in front of him and forcing him to deal with my situation and for him that would mean calling the police, so they can deal with it and he can handle the other customers.

Sometimes it is nice to pretend to be human.

Re:So what's the plan

[bluegutang]

The dollar shall be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private, right?

So if your credit card fails and they refuse to take cash as a payment, they are not entitled to any payment, and your meal is free?

Re:So what's the plan

[thegarbz]

I prefer to use cash because every card compromise I've ever had ( including the latest chip cards ) have been wait staff at restaurants who simply copied what they needed from my card.

You could just join the 21st century. There's no reason to hand your card to the staff. There's also very little they can do without your pin number or your password (online banking payment verification systems).

Re:So what's the plan

[thesupraman]

So, you think when you make an online purchase withing a creditcard you need more than the card number, the 3 digit verification numberon the back, and the name printed on the card?

Internesting.. Because thats all I use.

Never ever EVER let someone take away your card.Why would you, too lazy to stand up? Too 'important'? hmmmm.....

Re:So what's the plan

[thegarbz]

I don't think. I know. I use my credit card online all the time. Doing so redirects to a Mastercard site which then requries me to enter a verification password (either a passphrase I chose, or 2FA).

Also it's interesting that you say it's an issue of lazyness. I don't think I've eaten anywhere in the past 2 years where the credit card machine wasn't brought to me. I have considered wireless machines basically standard since turn of the century with the old ones starting to be phased out some 20 years ago.

New fees for credit cards

[n0w0rries]

Take away the banks fees for dealing with cash, and they'll just raise other fees to compensate.

It's all about tracking your every expense and earning.

Nope

[AndyKron]

I shouldn't have to go through a credit card company to make purchases.

Re:Nope

[jordanjay29]

Do you shop online at all?

when the system goes down you just bill servers

[Joe_Dragon]

when the system goes down you just bill the servers for the free food or do you lock in diners for hours waiting for the card system to go back up?

make the server pay for it!

[Joe_Dragon]

make the server pay for it!

Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers

[b0s0z0ku]

Probably go back to the old imprint-type credit card machines. Cha-chunk. Cha-chunk. Sign at the X. And you hope everyone's card turns out to be valid after the system comes back up.

good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the only

[Joe_Dragon]

good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the only place to get health coverage for some.

Receipts

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of these places don't print receipts. They either want to email you the receipt or not give you one at all. I don't want to give my email to another business, but I do want my receipt.

Re:Receipts

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of these places don't print receipts. They either want to email you the receipt or not give you one at all. I don't want to give my email to another business, but I do want my receipt.

Do what I do - Get an email service that does Catchall addresses.
Then when you go to Bob's Fine Eatery, give them the email address Bob'sFineEatery@yourdomain.com.
The address you set up to receive all anonymous emails will get that receipt, as well as any spam generated.
Why bother? Because when you get spam from Bob'sFineEatery@yourdomain.com, you know EXACTLY which asshole sold your email address to the spammers.

Re: Receipts

[reanjr]

I'd pretty much go to one of these restaurants every day if any of them were dumb enough to open in my neighborhood.

Re: Receipts

[NormalVisual]

I'd be tempted to tender payment for my debt in any form that the law of the land states is a legal tender. If the restaurant refuses then my debt is already paid and the refused money is returned to me as a gift.

I'd suggest you research that idea a bit more before you find yourself having a problem.

Re:Receipts

[TheRaven64]

Good suggestion, except don't use Bob'sFineEatery as the username. As Bruce Schneier said, if you give him schneier@example.com, he can probably guess the email that you use for Amazon. Instead, generate either a random ID and store who you've given it to, or use some term that's easy to map back to the original name but isn't obviously tied to it.

Re: Receipts

[LordKronos]

You aren't making the distinction between merchandise/services and debt. When you go to the grocery store and the store refuses to accept your cash, then you simply walk out without your merchandise and the store keeps your merchandise for the next customer. With the typical restaurant model, when you eat your food and then pay at the end, you have created a debt. If the restaurant refuses your cash payment, you can't walk out of there without the food (at least not in a way that would allow them to serve it to the next customer). In that case, you have created a debt. If the restaurant refused your cash payment, then you could very well walk out not owing anything, regardless of any signs they may have posted.

Of course, the way for the restaurant to deal with this is to simply have the customer pay up front. You order your food, pay at that time. Then they cook the order and serve your food. At the end they can bring your your receipt for you to write in your tip (I'd be curious if the cashless restaurant would refuse a cash tip). If you want to add to your order, I'm unsure if the system allows them to charge more than the additional authorized amount. Behind the scenes, I don't know how the auth/payment mechanisms work. Clearly a restaurant can add in the tip as they currently do. I'm not sure if that mechanism is designed purely for tips (and thus they would have to lie and say the additional amount was a tip instead of extra food) or if it can be used to add additional food. Of course the could also take the gas station method of authorizing a higher amount up front and then adjusting to your actual purchase amount.

Re: Receipts

[orlanz]

I would argue that if there was clear signage, you entered into a good faith contract when you sat down and ordered. The expectation is that you had means to pay when you ordered.

You can't just change the terms of the contract after the fact. Imagine if you changed the good faith contract's implied timely terms."I will come back and pay you next week?" won't work.

Also, since you changed the terms, the restaurant can too. Can they not Uber your cash payment to their bank and charge you the service cost?

Re:Receipts

[PrimaryConsult]

I use the + feature of email addresses on a secondary email account, like someguy+bobsfineats@example.com. The trick is to have a rule that anything *without* a plus gets discarded. You get your receipt, and when your email is re-sold to a mailing list you either know exactly who did it (since the + will still be there) and can optionally add a new filter, or if they stripped the + out, you never even see the unsolicited mail.

Re:Receipts

[nukenerd]

when you go to Bob's Fine Eatery, give them the email address Bob'sFineEatery@yourdomain.com

That's a bit of a givaway. Any spammer who knows his salt will know that anything@yourdomain.com will also get to you.

I worked at a restaurant being targeted

[rsilvergun]

by crooks. Lobby was Open 24 hours. I never did get robbed, but I knew people who had been. The owner of that restaurant? Started closing the lobby only after the police threatened to hold her criminally liable if anyone got hurt. They knew the robberies were happening, but they were sporadic enough that the profits from keeping the lobby open were > what was stolen.

Being cashless is a big plus for the employees at 24 hour restaurants.

Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers

[hjf]

you can do offline transactions with handheld POS machines. you slide the card and do the transaction manually, then it prints the receipt with a longer blank area, place it above the card and rub something so the thermal paper picks up the embossed numbers.
some debit cards, like most of the ones here in Argentina, don't have raised numbers. they very explicitly say, on the front of the card, ELECTRONIC USE ONLY. So if the system is down, it's done. You can't use the card.

No worry about restaurants that don't take cash.

[sehlat]

1. If the power fails, any burden falls on them to handle it.

2. Servers will always accept a cash tip. And unless they've screwed up royally, my tip is as close to 20% as I can manage.

Some Card, Some Cash

[DERoss]

When I eat in a restaurant, I usually pay for my meal with a credit card. However, I never charge a tip. Instead, I always leave a cash tip.

Why? There are several reasons.

Some restaurants divide charged tips, giving some of it to the non-service employees such as cooks and dishwashers. That way, the owner does not have to pay everyone the legal minimum wage. This practice was prohibited by the Obama administration but reinstated by Trump. I give a cash tip in an attempt to provide my server the full amount and also to force the owner to pay non-service employees properly.

When a restaurant submits my charge to its bank, there is a fee deducted from what is credited to the restaurant. Some restaurants reduce charged tips proportionally. I want the server to get the full amount, not a discounted amount.

If the total amount of a purchase is less than $10, I pay with cash, not a credit card. Whatever happened to "The customer is always right."? If they do not want my cash, I do not want their product or service.

Re:Some Card, Some Cash

[houghi]

I never leave a tip where I live. People get paid a living wage.

When I went to the US, I obviously went with the quaint ways of the country as I do wherever I go. I found the whole situation extremely confusing.

In Europe, at the end of the meal I finish the wine I have and might even order some more. Once in while they might look if I want to order more and sometimes I do. I then show my card, so they know I want to pay and that I pay by card. They come with the machine (sometimes I need to go to the counter) put my card in the machine, enter my code and get the receipt. The card never leaves me.

In the US at the end of my meal, with half a bottle, they ask me if I want anything else (Not right now, thank you.) and I get the bill on the table that I did not yet ask for. After 5 minutes or so they get back and I hand them my card. They then leave and come back with two papers and the card and a pen. I never see any waiter after that, no matter that I sit there for another 30 minutes. (No, the restaurants where not full, nor was it near t o closing time and it happened in ALL places I went to.)
So now I am here with three papers and need to figure out which one I need to sign and write the tip on and then leave that behind and take two with me.

I know one place took the details of my card and copied them as it was blocked after a while. No idea which one. Could be any of the places where I _by accident_ took the wrong papers with me. I know this as I came home I had three where my signature was on the paper as well as the 15% or so tip I wrote on it.

What I found interesting was how much Americans still use cash as there is no other way to deal with it in places where I would not expect it.
Parking garages. In many places there was no machine to take money or a card. In fact at one place when we left, the person was not even there (perhaps gone to pee or whatever) and left the gate open with a sign "Be right back" so we left. Saved us 30 USD right there. Looking at the sign, that was not the first time.
Another place is toll roads. You do not even have the option to pay other than cash. To me that is just weird as it takes so much time and therefore money.

In Europe when it is less than 25EUR I pay contactless. Otherwise I use my PIN. I also think "The customers is always right." is absolute and utter bullshit. The example you give has nothing to do with it. It is a choice and both you have a choice to accept the transaction as well as the store. You did not come to an agreement concerning the transaction, so there is no transaction. That has nothing to do with "Being right".

Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers

[Anonymous Coward]

Only problem with that is that it's (slowly) becoming a thing for companies to issue non-embossed cards.

Not to mention I imagine most businesses don't even have them on hand. I've asked that very question before when the "system went down" at a McDonald's I patronized last year. The manager just looked at me like I was speaking another language. I could have sworn it was required by most credit card processors that their clients have them for backup, but maybe that's not actually a rule.

Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers

[b0s0z0ku]

Could you have a machine that captures a photo of the card or the magstripe data and phones/Internets it back to the company when the connection goes back up? Basically a modern equivalent of the old ka-chunkers.

Re:good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the on

[b0s0z0ku]

ACA? Sure, it stands for now, but GOP is doing its level best to shoot it down.

Post it clearly

[amiga3D]

As long as they clearly indicate that they don't take cash it's not a problem. I just don't want any surprises. I use my card occasionally at restaurants if the bill is over 50 dollars or so. But mostly I prefer cash for small purchases, certainly any in the 20-30 dollar range. As long as I know their policy though I can avoid them. Not likely to be a problem for me in the near future as there are plenty of place to eat that don't treat their customers like shit.

I notice most comments are not getting modded

[retroworks]

How is the /. business model going to do with out tips?

Know who really hates this?

[EvilSS]

Waitstaff. In the US IRS rules assume you make 10% of your sales in tips. You are requires to report the actual amount, but that's the minimum the IRS will accept. Needless to say, most tips go under-reported. With credit cards, however, when the tip is left on the card it goes into the resturant's POS system and your actual charged tips get reported.

Of course the IRS loves the idea I'm sure.

Re:Know who really hates this?

[b0s0z0ku]

Of course, you can tip exactly 10% on a card, then slip the waiter/ress another 8-10% as cash so they can pocket it.

Re:Know who really hates this?

[EvilSS]

You can. But then you might as well tip them all in cash. Comes out the same.

Re:Know who really hates this?

[Rockoon]

Most tipped positions fall under IRS exemptions for reporting actual tips. If you have worked for tips at multiple places and are unaware of this, it is probably because your State has laws incompatible with IRS methodology on the matter.

The IRS has multiple ways to get this exemption, but perhaps the most common is TRDA (as the employer knows it) aka TEPA (as the employee will know it.) Under TEPA the IRS has a low-balled estimate of your tipped income and taxes you on that estimate regardless of how much you actually have received in tips.

Additionally, some industries have their own laws in place, for instance GITCA for the gaming industry. This one is very favorable for both the tipped employee and the employer as they are provided complete safe harbor against audits related to tipped income and as with TEPA the rate is set based on a low-balled estimate of your tipped income.

My guess is you live in California, where State law makes being under any of these an onerous burden on the employer.

private debt?

[superdave80]

This note is legal tender for all debts public and private.

So, if I order a meal, sit down eat it, and then go to pay in cash... what does the restaurant do? If I hand them cash that covers the bill, haven't I paid my 'debt'?

Re:private debt?

[Ksevio]

Probably just reject it as if you'd paid them in Canadian dollars

Re:private debt?

[superdave80]

Except we aren't in Canada.

Re:private debt?

[Ksevio]

Exactly, so they wouldn't accept it

Re:private debt?

[superdave80]

Accept what?

Re:private debt?

[Ksevio]

Cash

Re:private debt?

[superdave80]

Which 'cash'?

Re:private debt?

[Ksevio]

Any cash - they'd only accept cards

Re:Cash is not slower

[b0s0z0ku]

Card is also bad in a bar (for customers) because they'll often take it and start a tab. Meaning that "friends'" drinks sometimes end up added to said bar tab. Cash is better since you can control the amount of the tab as it increases -- I'm scroogey that way.

I live in the midwest.

[waspleg]

I've never seen a place that won't take cash. But I know several cash only businesses.

Why? Because the CC companies charge fees in the form of percentages of your purchase. I know several others who will charge you more for using a card too.

The online equivalent, I've seen places put the charge for using something like Paypal back on your bill too.

Usually the cash only places are awesome too, small businesses with no equivalent elsewhere, like a German meat market owned by an immigrant master meat maker.

Discrimination..

[Bert64]

It's not discriminatory providing cards are available to everyone without having to pay fees... Providing there are prepaid cards widely available, anyone can go to a convenience store and exchange their cash for a prepaid card.

However, by using cards we're handing too much power to the card issuers.. Cash is issued by the government, but cards are entirely commercial so the companies wouldnt think twice about cranking up the costs once you're locked in and cashless becomes the norm.

There's also the issue of standardisation... Visa and Mastercard are pretty universal and work almost anywhere, but there's also various local payment schemes. Many customers of restaurants are tourists, so if they're accepting a payment method that's only open to local residents you're cutting out these foreign tourists.

Non Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who doesn't know why - has never owned a restaurant.
Cash business is not a problem - it's a solution

Yard sales still take cash

[tepples]

Though, with the advent of Square and PayPal, a business which truly accepts only cash has become rare indeed.

Do you visit a lot of yard sales or garage sales? I do, and most homeowners running them haven't upgraded to Square or PayPal. Yard sale transactions are typically so small (very often below $5) that the 30 cent transaction fee is a far larger fraction of the total than the 3% rake.

Re:Yard sales still take cash

[Powercntrl]

Do you visit a lot of yard sales or garage sales?

TFA is about businesses going cashless, not random folks selling stuff out of their front yard, or on Craigslist. Yes, cash is still king for small, person-to-person transactions.

PayPal

[tepples]

When I shop online other than on Amazon, I prefer to pay with PayPal. PayPal can be set to draw from a checking account instead of a credit card.

Upscale Millennials

[ffejie]

"For starters, upscale Millennials -- among the most coveted of diners because of their youth and affluence -- prefer to pay in cash, according to Bankrate.com data."

I'm sorry, what? I'd love to meet these people. I'm in this demographic and there's 0 people I know who prefer cash. It seems like every time we go out, everyone is trying to throw down a card, occasionally there's a flurry of Venmo payments, but it's almost never cash. Upscale millennials are not unbanked, nor are they without access to technology or credit cards. Why would any one of them prefer cash?

fat chance

[aepervius]

"where our location is tracked 24/7/365" so you don't have a mobile phone, or take the time to switch it off when not making a call, and never receive call ? Because if you do , you are tracked 24/7/365 much MUCH better than if you were paying cashless.

Re:fat chance

[b0s0z0ku]

Pretty much. It's often in flight mode or sitting at home unless I feel like checking messages.

what about bank card

[aepervius]

Here in Europe we have bank card (e.g. called giro card - they are not CC, maybe you call them debit card?), they are accepted *everywhere* (they obey a standard) and they use chip and pin and cannot be copied by the staff. All your problem can be pointed back to your own reluctance as a country to adopt modern banking practice.

Plastic costs money too.

[ElizabethGreene]

> Cash actually costs money ...

I love how bits like this pretend that credit card processing is free. It isn't, and far from it. It's going to cost an average restaurant a couple of percent of the check plus a per-check fee plus a couple hundred bucks for a terminal plus a dedicated land line for the terminal (because we apparently live in the 1980's) plus chargebacks plus merchant account fees.

Neither Paper nor Plastic is free.

The first thing restaurants should have done.

[will_die]

Instead of this how about restaurants start charging enough to pay their employees in the cost of the product instead of me having to figure out how much I feel like paying them..
BTW to the "journalist" who wrote that article, credit card cost money, more than you are going to spend on handling the cash.

Re: good thing for the ADC or it's prison as the o

[b0s0z0ku]

Until states put a similar mandate in place. Besides, many people WANT insurance -- better than begging for expensive treatment on GoFundMe and hoping people like you enough to pay for you not to croak.

They don't have to give you the food. DEBT

[raymorris]

Right, they don't have to give you the food, if you offer them cash. They do not have to accept cash and THEN give you something for it.

AFTER you've eaten the food, they say you owe them the money. That's a debt. "For all debts, both public and private" means that once you owe them money (you've already gotten the food), you can pay that debt in cash. They can't force you to go get a credit card. They CAN ask you not to come back again with cash.

Re:They don't have to give you the food. DEBT

[thegarbz]

AFTER you've eaten the food, they say you owe them the money. That's a debt.

No it's not. That's a sales contract that has been fulfilled by one party but not the other. You can only incur debt (as per the financial definition) by borrowing money from someone.

So what do you do with all that privacy?

[rsilvergun]

I honestly stopped caring years ago. The folks who want to oppress me have much, much better ways to do it than keep track of where I buy gas & food (and no, they don't know what you're buying, that much data isn't collected by the businesses).

Everytime I hear about privacy I think if this xkcd comic. I'm not saying we shouldn't work to stop oppression, I'm saying there's better places to spend your time and effort. For example, show up to your primary so you can get some candidates that aren't corporate sell outs.

Re:So what do you do with all that privacy?

[b0s0z0ku]

Every bit of push back against oppressive technology makes it just a bit harder to build the infrastructure for surveillance. Doing my part.

It's not only a question of government surveillance. It's a question of employers, spouses, etc, etc, etc knowing where employees and spouses are at a given time. There needs to be a safety valve. An ability to white-lie, to go to an interview while calling in sick, to meet with your less couth friends at a seedy dive bar while being "at work."

People shouldn't be forced to be pious and perfect by technology -- it's against human nature. Everyone is entitled to their secrets and privacy.

Name one state (there isn't one, by C. 8 & 10)

[raymorris]

Try to name one single state that attempts to override federal law, Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 (the Coinage Act) by saying any debt whatsoever can't be paid in cash.

After you've searched for a while, you can read Section 10 of the US Constitution:
No state shall ... make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;

Which pairs with Section 8:
The Congress shall have power to ... To coin money, regulate the value thereof

The US Congress, and Congress alone, has the power to determine what is valid payment of a debt. The exercised that power in 31 U.S.C. 5103. It would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL under section 10 of the Constitution for any state to purport to set any other method of payment.

Funny story

[cyn1c77]

Last time I was at a cash only restaurant, I only had 3 bills in the denominations of $5, $50, and $100 dollars. My bill was $15.

So I try to pay (at the register) with my credit card and they say "cash only". At that point I am excited, because I actually have cash, which I rarely bother to carry. So I pull out the $50 and they would not take it because of fear of counterfeit dollars. They said they won't take any bill higher than $20.

I was like "uh, your sign says 'cash only', it doesn't say 'cash only in bills less than $50'. If you don't take credit cards, you actually have to accept the cash".

Long story short, they let me have my meal for free because they were afraid to lose money by making change with a possible counterfeit $50. I eventually went back later and repaid them because I felt bad, but it highlights the issues that they're facing: Afraid to take cash, afraid to pay the credit card fees.

It also highlights how fucked up the money situation has become in the US. Some places won't take ANY cash. Some places won't take bills over a certain amount. Some places won't take credit cards. And if you are going somewhere new YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT THEY WILL TAKE! You used to be able to just leave the house with a $50 bill and be good to go. Now you have to have a bunch of $20s, your credit card, your ID (in case they check), and maybe your phone to pay with that. Things seem to be getting harder, not easier.

Re:Funny story

[fred6666]

It also highlights how fucked up the money situation has become in the US.

I agree. As a tourist, I was surprised to see that tolls on I-95 didn't accept credit cards. Instead, they hire a lot of people just to count cash and give back change while this could easily be automated. And no, tourists won't get ez-pass and car rental companies charge WAY too much to use theirs.

Same articles say states regulate marijuana

[raymorris]

The same articles of the Constitution that say the feds set the money and states can't, also say that the feds CANNOT do anything other than the listed powers and all other powers are reserved to the states. So Constitutionally the states, not the feds, regulate possession of marijuana.

The feds Constitutionally regulate *interstate commerce* - in marijuana and other things. Try getting caught selling weed across state lines and see how that goes.

Section 8 of the Constitution also assigns to the federal government the establishment of uniform immigration law. It does not, however, compel states to use their police forces to enforce immigration law.

Give a discount for cashless

[DrXym]

If its such a hassle to take cash, take 5% off the cost when people don't. Otherwise GTFO.

Re:You WANT to eat where they don't accept Cash

[driblio]

No, once they refuse your cash, you have no food.

You are free to walk out, hungry.

The real question

[reanjr]

Why do affluent millennials prefer cash at restaurants? Are affluent millennials too poor to rotate tabs? Are they too luddite to pay each other with Square? I'm really confused by this fact. I don't use cash for anything legal.

Re:You WANT to eat where they don't accept Cash

[NormalVisual]

This! The restaurant is unlikely to win in court (small claims or otherwise), because of that notice on Federal Reserve Notes. Take a video of the restaurant staff refusing FRNs to play back in court.

And then the restaurant is going to point out that there's no federal law requiring payment in currency or coins to a private business, and the judge is going to agree unless there's a state law to the contrary, and then it'll be up to you to prove otherwise. Text on the currency itself does not mean a thing, and there have been countless cases lost where someone did something stupid like trying to pay with thousands of pennies.

legal tender

[matushorvath]

Will someone knowledgeable please explain, what does "legal tender" mean if it does not mean they have to accept cash to settle my debt?

Stupid Chicago Politicians

[Notabadguy]

Apparently the ones trying to mandate restaurants accepting cash because plastic discriminates against credit-card-less people don't realize that plastic also comes in the form of pre-paid credit cards (same as cash), gift cards (lesser, but as good as cash).

They still accept cash, but your cash needs to be loaded on a piece of plastic.

Or you can eat elsewhere.

under 18 can have debit cards

[fred6666]

as well as pre-paid "credit" cards. So there is no discrimination when going cash less.

Here in Canada, debit card is the preferred option by restaurants (and most merchants), since they avoid the high fees of credit cards and the hassle of cash.

Cashless costs too

[gabrieltss]

Every time you swipe your Credit Card the business is charged merchant fees and transaction fees. Oh wait, but they will just pass those costs on to YOU! SO your food, your drinks will end up costing you MORE than if you paid cash!

We have some restaurants near me that we used to go to all the time. They wet to "cashless" only. We stopped going to those restaurants. So not only is that restaurant losing our business, the waitresses are losing out on much needed tips (which we ALWAYS do in cash). Taking away the cash option - is a lose-lose for the restaurants. The ones that do will probably long term close up or change back.

Re: Exactly, after you eat. Could refuse next tim

[guruevi]

Which is illegal after you have already racked up the debt. You have to sign off on that kind of understanding and even then it might be considered usury.

Re:What happens?

[skids]

Pretty much. I confine my CC transactions as much as feasible to reduce the risk of falling victim to e-fraud. Unless I eat there regularly, I am going to pay cash, and if you don't take it, you won;t get my business.

Cash needs no cell data plan

[tepples]

My bank has a service that can send anyone a payment by email.

Many banks offer that, and it works wherever you have Internet access. But when you're at a garage sale, you're often in range of neither your home LAN nor a public hotspot. How much do you pay per 12 months for a cellular Internet connection in order to be able to email money while out of Wi-Fi range?

A) Debt is owed, for reason, B) law, not finance

[raymorris]

A) In finance, if you owe an money, that's debt. It doesn't have to be money - because you borrowed money. If an airline has 50 planes delivered and hasn't paid for them yet, that's included in debt load. Compare liabilities, which can be non-money things owed.

B) We're talking about law, not finance. Let's look at the preeminent law dictionary, Black's Law Dictionary:
--
  A debt is a sum of money due by contract. It is most frequently due by a certain...
---

> That's a sales contract that has been fulfilled by one party and not the other ...

Which is almost EXACTLY the legal definition of debt, when a contract says money is due and it hasn't yet been paid. :)

Well.....

[MerlTurkin]

I'll eat elsewhere. Fortunately I'm not too lazy to cook my own food and VERY rarely eat out. I hate eating out.

Re:when the system goes down you just bill servers

[jrumney]

That seems to be what some systems do now. I had a paywave transaction timeout yesterday. The cashier then tried inserting the card into the slot, but the machine told him to swipe it, which never happens these days but I guess it makes sense - all the chip communication is encrypted, so the only way to store and forward is to take the data from the magstripe. It then had him reinsert the card and present it to me for PIN entry, so there was still some sort of challenge-response handshake to verify the transation, and after that it had another attempt at putting through an online transaction, this time printing the usual slip after the timeout. I imagine the delays between timeouts could cause a significant slowdown in a busy restaurant, or worse - a supermarket, though once they know the system is down, they can limit it to one timeout by not attempting the paywave transaction first.

Does cash cost more than cards?

[sabbede]

I didn't know banks charged for cash deposits (ridiculous), but I do know that the likes of Visa and Mastercard charge transaction fees. That's why your local convenience store probably doesn't accept cards for purchases under $3.

And while I realize it's easier for someone to point a gun at you and take your cash than it is to steal credit card transactions, how often does that really happen to the average restaurateur?

This note is legal tender

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I used to have more cash on hand because I operated a small laundromat. People would refuse things like "$20 in unrolled quarters" to pay for gas (back when you paid after you pumped) with reasonable frequency.

Here is how not to be refused cash payment:
"Here is your payment."
"I'm sorry sir, we do not accept cash."
"This note is legal tender for all debts public and private. It says as such on its face."
"I'm sorry sir, we do not accept this as payment for your private debt at this establishment."
"That is a real shame. I tell you what - I'm going to leave this cash here in exact change and walk out. You may call the police or press charges for theft if you wish."

No one ever called the police or pressed charges. I *think* it is legally ambiguous if you take items and leave money (is this theft? you actually paid...). It could be settled via small claims court (if the judge rules against the cash customer), I suppose, but both parties would have to show up. Further - the business would have to prove that you "stole" with video evidence... of you pumping gas, going inside, leaving cash, and leaving.

Re:This note is legal tender

[SuiteSisterMary]

It's legal tender, which is to say, it's a valid *offer* of payment. They don't have to take it, but they can't accuse you of fraud for trying to pay with it.

Better tipping leads to better service

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

That said, the whole idea of expected tipping is quite ridiculous and causes all manner of problems.

Yeah, right. Tipping well at a place you regularly visit is how you get better service, including complimentary items. I paid for exactly 0 of my drinks at the bar I ate at this past weekend. Heck, some places will even give you free lodging if you're a good customer.

No one's forcing you to leave a tip.

Re:Better tipping leads to better service

[thesupraman]

Ah, so you are what some places would call 'a high roller' and others would call 'a moron?'

The only reason they would do this is that you are an easy mark and they are making nice big fat piles of money off you.
They wont be doing this for normal tips - for a start, why would the company (the ones paying for your free whatevers) care about their staff getting tips.

BS.