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Belgium Declares Video Game Loot Boxes Gambling and Therefore Illegal (arstechnica.com)
The Belgian Gaming Commission has reviewed several big video games and found that randomized loot boxes in at least three of the titles count as "games of chance," and publishers could therefore be subject to fines and prison sentences under the country's gaming legislation. Ars Technica reports: A statement by Belgian Minister of Justice Koen Geens (machine translation) identifies loot boxes in Overwatch, FIFA 18, and Counter Strike: Global Offensive as meeting the criteria for that "game of chance" definition: i.e., "there is a game element [where] a bet can lead to profit or loss and chance has a role in the game." The Commission also looked at Star Wars: Battlefront II and determined that the recent changes EA made to the game means it "no longer technically forms a game of chance." Beyond that simple definition, the Gaming Commission expressed concern over games that draw in players with an "emotional profit forecast" of randomized goods, where players "buy an advantage with real money without knowing what benefit it would be." The fact that these games don't disclose the odds of receiving specific in-game items is also worrisome, the Commission said. The three games noted above must remove their loot boxes or be in criminal violation of the country's gaming legislation, Geens writes. That law carries penalties of up to 800,000EU (~$973,680) and five years in prison, which can be doubled if "minors are involved." But Geens says he wants to start a "dialogue" with loot box providers to "see who should take responsibility where."
absolutely agree, if you can't know what you're getting, it's a gamble. This is the stupidest trend in gaming that needs to end.
As much as I despise loot boxes and the greedy companies that use them, your government arbitrarily deciding, without your input on the subject, what you are and aren't allowed to to, down to the smallest minutia of your life.
Of course it is gambling. You pay real money for a random chance at something. They got sooo greedy and ruined the games in the process. It would be nice if the marketing geniuses would get punished but I kind of doubt it. It started out small and it was like printing money.
But Geens says he wants to start a "dialogue" with loot box providers to "see who should take responsibility where."
The executives that said it was ok to do. Who else? The person who fed their family by doing what they were told?
How long will they get away selling fake crates with fake loot for real money? This is becoming the new business model at the expense of all gamers.
Their waffles aren't bad, but this just makes them look stupid.
As much as this clearly rubs "MUH LIBERTY" the wrong way, this WILL result in less money being squandered. The kids (at least) playing these games are not likely to turn to the race track or casino to scratch a gambling itch. It actually is just about the games.
Here's hoping they include the scum bags at Psyonix (Rocket League).
'cause Lotto Belgium is a game of skill.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Not really.
Who farted?
I hope this spreads all over the world and loot boxes become a thing of the past.
The dog you've been fucking in the ass.
What about monsters that occasionally drop a rare item? What if those monsters occur as part of paid downloadable content? What if the monster is not that hard to kill?
I demand compensation. They can start by giving me all the loot, and maybe a few free chicken dinners.
Does Blizzard (the publisher of Overwatch), Electronic Arts (the publisher of FIFA 18), or Valve (the publisher of Counter Strike: Global Offensive) have a presence in Belgium, or is Belgium trying to regulate companies that are outside its jurisdiction?
This isn't something that you are forced to buy. Nobody is making you gamble. We should not be banning something just because some people might do bad things with. This is a terrible tragedy to freedom for the rest of us and some people doing bad things or being hurt by it is a poor excuse particularly when everything here is a voluntary interaction and anybody who doesn't like it can stop playing. That said if a people want to setup an totalitarian police state thats up to them- but you should never use violence, theft, or coercion to force others to partake as all government routinely do. If the government here is going to insist on controlling the lives of those within its territory it should find some other means to accomplish its mission that doesn't involve trying to hold foreigners who have never even visited the country to its arbitrary standards. There are hundreds of countries and likely millions of different laws when cities, countries, regions, states, and countries are all taken into account. There is simply no possibility one can obey all laws. Particularly when many within even a given city or state conflict with one another and not even a lawyer can confidently tell you how to comply half the time. Its sad that police get a walk when they don't know and routinely violate the law but then go around saying ignorance of the law is no excuse. Well is it orisn't it. If it isn't excusable the police should be held accountable to the same standard.
Anyone know what the status of Kinder Surprise are in Belgium...?
I'm happy and sad. Obviously obvious decision is obvious. Yay. Sad that that derp isn't obvious.
We had a similar problem here in the states, hundreds of millions of dead bodies in the streets because they couldn't afford health insurance (not to mention actual health care)... we got Obamacare as a fix, and now the streets only have living homeless people in them.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
I agree with the first four sentences...then you kinda went on a ramble, but that's ok. If we're supposed to be trusted with "choices" then why are some people excited about eliminating some but not others?
My son buys my daughter loot boxes for her birthday and she opens them in hopes of getting cosmetic enhancements in Overwatch.
I would not be overly upset if the thing she wanted could be outright purchased. I'd even bless it as knowing that she would get what she paid for. But last year, she got loot boxes and every one of them had something she already had. The result being that the money was entirely wasted.
My son and daughter stood by the computer while he prayed his baby sister would get what she'd wanted for so long. And while she was so happy he bought her the loot boxes, he was so disappointed that he wasted his allowance.
Loot boxes are shit. If you want to sell loot boxes, you shouldn't be able to put anything in them you can't outright buy in a store as well.
P.S. - I stopped spending an average of $800 a year on games when these shenanigans came in.
majority catholic : most gambling will be banned although there are always some hard to find exceptions.
majority protestant : more tolerant of gambling allowing the large gambling companies over the years to become more powerful than the local church denom.
majority anglican protestant : gambling is the new religion in close association with alcohol and football they form a new holy trinity. If you do not gamble you are weird.
everything here is a voluntary interaction and anybody who doesn't like it can stop playing.
If that were true, we wouldn't need to regulate gambling at all.
Feckin-A bitchski gamrz ... pure stain no gain. Drag them outa parents cellars and toss their sorry azwholes into the gutter. Smash-face the sad lot, break their neekaps crack their bones and send them packing with injectable HIV to nibberbooland.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to utilize violence, theft, and coercion on free people and I imagine also on those who have a medical condition. Even if what you are saying were true- that you can excuse theft, violence, and coercion because the end justifies the means you could resolve the issue via other avenues. Like setting up a system to restrict gambling not terribly unlike how many people feel a need to restrict driving, alcohol, smoking, drugs, and other activities to younger people. For instance you could pass a law requiring identification and a central database. Limiting gambling would achieve the same effect as banning gambling- at least to the extent that people don't simply flaunt the law anyway. Personally I think that is a terrible idea, but it wouldn't restrict the right of the masses to gamble for the benefit of those with medical issues. I'm also not one to gamble- but I wouldn't vote for someone whose going to force my view of gambling onto others who don't agree. Thats just morally wrong.
But luckily Trump is here to bring back the good old times!
-- Cheers!
Yeah, economy has been doing great with Trump. Awesome President so far, no complaints.
when everything here is a voluntary interaction and anybody who doesn't like it can stop playing.
Unfortunately, that is not true. Loot boxes were designed to create positive reinforcement that a certain percentage of the population gets addicted to and can't just stop.
Loot boxes are slot machines. You put in real money for that 1 in 100,000+ chance of a jackpot. They use flashing lights, streamers, music to create that positive reinforcemt just like the slot machine. They dangle a few free ones in front of you hoping to grab you in so you put down some real cash. They hope to cash in on the Gambler's Fallacy and grab more cash from you. For some, this will become a compulsive behavior they won't be able to stop.
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Hippie Logger Jock
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"Belgium Declares Video Game Loot Boxes Gambling and Therefore Illegal ", no it didn't. It declared loot boxes purchased for money as illegal gambling. You can still have lootboxes you just can't be selling them for random chances at loot.
gambling has been regulated for more than a century. Freedom is nice, but sadly gambling organisations when not regulated have proven to prey upon the weak, feeding and reinforcing their addictions until they get every last drop of blood. Personally I think each person should be free to do whatever they want provided they are not impacting me, but gambling affects EVERYONE associated with those addicts, it drives them to substance abuse, violence and theft and thus impacts me directly or indirectly through the costs to society.
You're a retard. The only people whose economy improved are the CNN pundits watching Trump drown himself in palpable guilt as he saunters off to prison.
I actually did it for RPGs first (D&D 3e+Mechwarrior 3rd Ed+a few others came out and made all my old sourcebooks/character's stats worthless... Oh yeah you can 'port them' y'know, using your own and the DMs judgement. At that point I can save myself the money and just make up rules as we play anyway! RPGs are for consistency of rules and stats. When those go away so does the point of spending money on RPG books, versus just freerolling it, like any good DM can.) Then I started weaning off PC games as online activation became mandatory, then expansion packs that should have been in the game, then DLC, then I jumped to free to play MMOs for a while, because it gave me worlds to explore, even if I couldn't 'win'.) Finally, I just stopped playing commercial games. Spent a while going back to my old library of games, then Dwarf Fortress, Minetest (0.2 to early 0.4), and then Cataclysm-DDA when it got a 2d tile based rendering engine. And y'know what? Even though I don't play games as much as I used to, when I get in the mood for a gaming binge like the old days I find I am not missing anything without all the modern shovelware. Some of them do have awesome unique gameplay elements, but the majority are visually improved iterations of older games with gameplay flaws, pay to win/customize, or abhorrent DRM that ruins the experience.
I wish I could miss gaming like I used to, but after seeing some of the spreadsheets from a leaked MMO's advancement tables, I realized they were farming us like MUDs used to farm players back in the 80s-90s. And it was neither a good thing then, nor a good thing now given the simplicity of gameplay in both spheres of gaming. If it was something that actually improved my mind, reflexes, or knowledge, maybe. But as a mindless grind it isn't even enjoyable anymore one you figure out the gameplay/physics. And unlike when I was 10, with the library of past games' knowledge it has become easy to figure out how most games operate and either 'game them' or figure out they can't be gamed and they are grindy as fuck (referring to that spreadsheet advancement from above.)
Rare is the game worthy of your time. May those of you still playing seek them unerringly and waste your time in a bewildering journey, and not a droll march of boredom.
the axe falls hard on project entropia
This is a terrible tragedy to freedom for the rest of us
If you wanted freedom, perhaps you should move to and live under the laws of a country that purports to be in favor of freedom.
Europe has never been in favor of or make any laws to support this notion of freedom.
Quite the opposite historically as quite a few European nations started out as one form of monarchy or another. Of course this isn't the case in the present time, but this still occasionally shows up as part of the culture.
But the concept of "the individual is there to support the society" has wide support and a very long background, and this is nothing than keeping in line with that idea.
An individual putting themselves and their own pleasures above the good of everyone else can't be allowed as a common or acceptable thing, or their society wouldn't exist in the same form it is today.
Fokking ban that STO-Star Trek Online already !
Probably the inventors of loot boxes, and there people are really hooked and spending a venture on this crap ! =D
You know how in America they tell Polish jokes?
In the Netherlands, they tell Belgium jokes.
Packs of trading cards are random and, until bought, you don't know what you're buying. Somewhere a clear line of demarcation needs to be drawn.
John_Chalisque
Where do you think (if you ever do) those great inflowing resources come from?
That's right: Your and my pockets ... and lives.
But congratulations on siding with your own enemy. It's an amazing mental feat, surpassig even Stockholm syndrome in a rape victim.
I don't know about Belgium or the US, but here in Germany, we have "Geldwerter Vorteil" (non-cash benefits). And our taxing agency is *very* aware of people trying to use that to circumvent taxation since forever.
I bet pretty much any country will have a concept like that. Belgium copies most of its laws from the surrounding countries anyway.
This isn't something that you are forced to buy. Nobody is making you gamble.
You're compelled to buy and gamble, though, through various psychological tricks. Not everyone's resistant to that, as a matter of fact most people aren't resistant to that at all. Also, there might not be an alternative to obtaining certain in-game items, which is also a scummy business model.
We should not be banning something just because some people might do bad things with.
Actually, yes, we should. Maybe you meant "We should not be banning everything just because some people might do bad things with" - to which I agree. But take each "something" separately, look at it, then decide if it needs to be regulated or not.
There is simply no possibility one can obey all laws.
Of course there is. Don't do business in that country.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
I mean, if genetics isn't a game of chance, then what is?
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
Thanks Germany!
Hopefully other countries will follow suit.
Lootbox were never a good thing. Paying ridiculous amount of money in many "small" amount, in the slight hope of getting what you were hoping for... Yeah that's gambling.
That wasn't an excuse at the Nürnberg trials, and it still isn't. Especially in countries that suffered under the Nazis.
Aso there woud be no need for the AA.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
everything here is a voluntary interaction and anybody who doesn't like it can stop playing.
Yes, because gambling addiction (where one's free will is compromised, like any other addiction) doesn't exist.
Glad to see that this gambling is being called out for what it really is. I've had a love/hate relationship with loot boxes in TF2 over the years but I've never once fooled myself into thinking it's not a form of gambling. In my country, all forms of gambling have to be approved by the gaming commission and require you to be of legal gambling age, but they haven't started to crack down on video game loot boxes yet and I hope they start soon.
Fortunately, efficient people can solve several problems, of different magnitude, at once.
Therefore Belgium is stopping it. Have fun over there. I hear you have until 2030, better live it up while you can.
Gambling is not illegal in Belgium, but it is heavy regulated: no access for minors, maximum amount of money that can be spent per time unit, need explicit warnings, ...
So saying that loot boxes are illegal is false. Loot boxes are considered as gambling, and as such the gambling law is applicable. If the game developer fails to comply to the gambling law, he will be subject to a fine
Preventing others to run of with the money Belgian government wanted themselves...
Libertarians get free lifetime vacation to siberia.
IMO a $60 game shouldn't be selling loot boxes for real money period.
If you buy a sandwich it might taste awful or it might taste awesome.
Gambling !!
Now someone owes me a million euros.
I miss the good ole days when I wasn't forced to pay $400 a month for insurance I can't use.
"Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
the Belgium English version will sell put world wide..... hate games that bring this crap
Write "Nuernberg" here in the future, it'll look better.
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