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Researchers Say a Breathalyzer Has Flaws, Casting Doubt On Countless Convictions (zdnet.com)

An anonymous reader writes: The source code behind a police breathalyzer widely used in multiple states -- and millions of drunk driving arrests -- is under fire. It's the latest case of technology and the real world colliding -- one that revolves around source code, calibration of equipment, two researchers and legal maneuvering, state law enforcement agencies, and Draeger, the breathalyzer's manufacturer. This most recent skirmish began a decade ago when Washington state police sought to replace its aging fleet of breathalyzers. When the Washington police opened solicitations, the only bidder, Draeger, a German medical technology maker, won the contract to sell its flagship device, the Alcotest 9510, across the state. But defense attorneys have long believed the breathalyzer is faulty. Jason Lantz, a Washington-based defense lawyer, enlisted a software engineer and a security researcher to examine its source code. The two experts wrote in a preliminary report that they found flaws capable of producing incorrect breath test results. The defense hailed the results as a breakthrough, believing the findings could cast doubt on countless drunk-driving prosecutions.

121 of 170 comments (clear)

  1. ...which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They take blood now, and refusal is an automatic conviction. The breath thing is just to let them know if they need to go to the trouble of calling a phlebotomist to the scene.

    1. Re:...which is why by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      They take blood now, and refusal is an automatic conviction. The breath thing is just to let them know if they need to go to the trouble of calling a phlebotomist to the scene.

      Depends on the the laws of your state, thankfully.

      Sticking a needle into your skin by orders of the "state" is a bit invasive.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:...which is why by rogoshen1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      FYI, if there's even a SHRED of doubt, always opt for the blood test. Especially considering things like mouth wash, or ketones can result in a false positive. As an added bonus, that extra time waiting for the blood draw means your BAC is decreasing.

      Thanks MADD, you co-opted the 5th amendment with your prohibition agenda.

    3. Re:...which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You agree to let them be invasive when you accept your driver's license.

    4. Re: ...which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Also, I would ask for an extra vial be taken for independent analysis (by my lawyer).

      Don't know if you can do that, but frankly, it seems right.

    5. Re: ...which is why by reanjr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not true. They simply revoke your license. You are not required to submit to any needles going in your body.

    6. Re:...which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Thanks MADD, you co-opted the 5th amendment with your prohibition agenda.

      You have no idea how true this is. In New Jersey, when they arrest you, they read this laminated card with a a detailed description of how and why you have no rights, why you must submit to a breathalyzer on the spot or automatically be found guilty as well as face additional (double) penalties for refusing, and how you have no right to consult with a lawyer before deciding. You are also not allowed to ask any questions or clarifications. If you have any questions, they simply repeat the card verbatim.
      In addition to the completely obvious unconstitutionality of it, they see no hypocrisy in how the state's official position is that you "consented" to the test, even though if the test does come up positive, that proves that your consent was given while you are drunk, which in any other part of the legal system means that you did not consent.
      Then of course there is the issue of how haphazardly calibrated these machines are, how wildly inaccurate they are, and so on.
      Even still, even when the prosecution can't prove probable cause, and even if they lose the evidences for 9 months while they jerk you around, with constant continuances, they still end up convicting 100% of the time. No jury BTW, just a judge who is buddies with all the cops.
      Meanwhile, if you are rich, you can just bypass it all as your expensive lawyer winks at the judge and you don't even lose your license.

      Our "justice" system is a complete joke.

    7. Re: ...which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Considering you lose that license for as long if not longer when you submit and get convicted, I'm not sure it's really even a punishment.

      Never agree, lose the license and keep your record clean.

    8. Re:...which is why by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Depends on where.

      In PA the field breathalyzer is about establishing probable cause to take one to the station, but there is a calibrated one at the police station that you cannot refuse and works as evidence in court.

      --
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    9. Re:...which is why by schematix · · Score: 2

      There is a correction factor added to compensate for the time since the traffic stop that considers the gender and size of the person. If your blood tests 0.079 an hour later, you're screwed. You can also be screwed at lower levels. Delaying is not in your favor. If you think you're going to be over the limit, refuse the test. If you think you're gonna be close, refuse the test. Only take it if you know you're going to pass.

      --
      Scott
    10. Re:...which is why by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Informative

      You agree to let them be invasive when you accept your driver's license.

      Not true, again, it depends on the laws of your state.

      It has been awhile since I last reviewed mine, now that I think about it, but from my last look...and after talking to a local lawyer, here are some things if you happen to get pulled over.

      First, do NOT take any field sobriety tests, especially the walking the lines, touching the nose, etc....especially if you think you might be close to the limit. All they are doing there, is collecting evidence against you on camera, that's it.

      Don't help them out.

      Refuse a field breath test.

      Same reason as above, you're only helping them collect evidence against you.

      If you think you are at all close to legal levels, while being polite, do not talk much. Answer few to no questions about where you were, what you've done and for certain do not tell them you have been drinking.

      And face facts, if they DO think you are impaired, nothing you can say or do will keep them from taking you in. If this is your situation, you basically need to just put your hands out for the cuffs and quietly go for a ride, you are doing to do that regardless of any actions you may try, you cannot talk your way out of it, etc.

      Again, do NOT help them gather evidence against you.

      Last I looked, in my state, if this is your first offense, you can and SHOULD refuse all breath and blood tests. The only time they can force you to take a blood test, is if you were in an accident, and someone was hurt/killed, then you can be compelled.

      Otherwise, if this is first offense you can refuse all tests, and you should.

      Then, get a good lawyer, and if you've done your job of not helping them gather evidence against you, he/she will likely get you off at the most with a wreckless driving.

      Of course, this sucks, but it is better than a DWI.

      If a 2nd time happens, and well...you should have learned your lesson the first time....do the same and do not help them gather evidence against you...this time if you refuse the breath test, there are some consequences. They recently passed some new laws and I honestly have not studied them....but to the best of my knowledge, you can at least get a lawyer to talk them into a limited license to get to/from work and such.

      Now....should be you driving and drinking in the first place?

      Well, in this day in age...no. There is uber...it is cheap, plentiful and they can cart your drunk ass anywhere. These days, it just isn't worth it to risk getting caught.

      But I mention it, because, well...shit happens. And with the BAC levels reduced to such stupidly LOW levels (0.08)....you can get very close to the legal limit as a grown man, having only 2-3 glasses of wine with a meal....and they can bust you, yet you may not even be close to impaired.

      So, keep that in mind.

      Again...this varies from state to state. If you drink, you should know way ahead of time, what the laws in YOUR state are, and if possible, talk to a lawyer to know what to do and not to do.

      And really with ANY interaction with the police, the best thing you can do is NOT say anything....your right to keep silent is the best thing going for you, and remember the police, no matter what they say, are NOT there to help you, they are there to try to gather evidence to charge someone (possibly YOU) with a crime.

      Be polite, comply...but don't help them out.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    11. Re:...which is why by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      FYI, if there's even a SHRED of doubt, always opt for the blood test. Especially considering things like mouth wash, or ketones can result in a false positive. As an added bonus, that extra time waiting for the blood draw means your BAC is decreasing.

      Also, ask for an atty present for any fluid draws...this can also stretch the time.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    12. Re:...which is why by spiritplumber · · Score: 1

      Here's the entirety of what you say: "I am happy to cooperate, as soon as my lawyer shows up." For everything else, you no habla Ingles (Or Spanish either).

      --
      Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
    13. Re: ...which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't have to be driving drunk to be pulled over and accused of it.

    14. Re:...which is why by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      at the most with a wreckless driving.

      But what if there is a wreck?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    15. Re:...which is why by The+Good+Reverend · · Score: 1

      You don't just get to delay until you're sober - they have a formula for determining your BAC at the time of your arrest, even if you take the blood test hours later.

    16. Re:...which is why by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But I mention it, because, well...shit happens. And with the BAC levels reduced to such stupidly LOW levels (0.08)....you can get very close to the legal limit as a grown man, having only 2-3 glasses of wine with a meal....and they can bust you, yet you may not even be close to impaired.

      I don't think that is stupidly low at all. I've seen people get visibly impaired on a couple of glasses of wine. Not drunk-drunk, but to a point where it obviously would impair them to a degree. Most people won't be majorly impacted by 2 glasses of wine, but they have to set the levels that low to catch the sizable minority that are.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    17. Re:...which is why by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      I don't think that is stupidly low at all. I've seen people get visibly impaired on a couple of glasses of wine. Not drunk-drunk, but to a point where it obviously would impair them to a degree. Most people won't be majorly impacted by 2 glasses of wine, but they have to set the levels that low to catch the sizable minority that are.

      It shouldn't be the lowest common denominator, that opens up WAY too broad of a dragnet.

      Until they can measure individual levels of true impairment, these levels need to be more reasonable...the 0.1 levels that worked for decades should be re-instated.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    18. Re: ...which is why by CoolDiscoRex · · Score: 1

      Yep, so set up a society where motor vehicle access = access to most everything else ... employment, food shopping, etc. Then, declare driving 'a privilege'. You can impose most anything on them, then. After all, they don't have to have a job. That's a personal choice and they agree to give up things to the government in exhange for one.

    19. Re:...which is why by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      You don't just get to delay until you're sober - they have a formula for determining your BAC at the time of your arrest, even if you take the blood test hours later.

      ANYTHING you can do to help your case, you should do......a lower number after time, you're lawyer can explain/argue much better than a higher number immediately after arriving at the station.

      Formula or not, a good atty can argue more on your behalf the more you give them a chance.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    20. Re:...which is why by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think that is stupidly low at all. I've seen people get visibly impaired on a couple of glasses of wine. Not drunk-drunk, but to a point where it obviously would impair them to a degree. Most people won't be majorly impacted by 2 glasses of wine, but they have to set the levels that low to catch the sizable minority that are.

      It shouldn't be the lowest common denominator, that opens up WAY too broad of a dragnet.

      If it were 1 in 100 that 0.8 was too high to drive; I would agree with you. If it is 1 in 4 then, absolutely, even if 3 can drive safely at that limit- 25% not being able to is a significant number. 0.8 is actually higher than a lot of states in the Union, and higher than a lot of Asian and European countries.

      I have a simple rule. If I have drunk any alcohol; I don't drive. Even though after a couple of beers or a couple glasses of wine, I don't feel impaired, I don't drive if I've drunk anything. It's really not worth it. It's not worth being impaired even if I feel fine; it's not worth getting arrested if my blood alcohol is higher than I think.

      It's not like it's that inconvenient to skip a drink every once in a while if you have to drive.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    21. Re:...which is why by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Having served on a jury for a drunk driving case, I would not convict on breathalyzer alone. In the case, the guy failed around 8-10 roadside sobriety tests in spectacular fashion and was obviously impaired by his speech. (We had a body cam video). The lawyer’s argument was the roadside tests have a 25% false positive rate so there was a 1 in 4 chance his tests were false positive. Unfortunately, she put an engineer and economist on the jury and we pointed out that .25 to the eight is infitessmally small and thus her arguement was bogus. Ultimately, the video did him in, along with his admission to having a few drinks. Moral of the story: Get a good lawyer, don’t argue bogus math if you let on the jury people who understand math and never admit anything during a stop.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    22. Re:...which is why by The+Good+Reverend · · Score: 2

      ANYTHING you can do to help your case, you should do

      I would recommend NOT drinking and driving. There's zero excuse. Of course you could be pulled over or arrested for seeming drunk, but if you're not drinking, you're not going to be busted after the test.

    23. Re:...which is why by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Especially considering things like mouth wash, or ketones can result in a false positive. As an added bonus, that extra time waiting for the blood draw means your BAC is decreasing.

      That's a lovely trap for idiots. In my state if you get pulled over at the booze bus, and request a blood test it'll be done in about a minute. If you blow over the limit you get to sit down for 10-15min before re-blowing precisely to gauge if you're blowing a temporary false positive.

      And if you're relying on something to get you BAC down to pass the cops then behalf of the rest of the road users, fuck you you drink driving fuck.

    24. Re:...which is why by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      he/she will likely get you off at the most with a wreckless driving.

      I sincerely hope that all my driving is wreckless.

      I think you mean "reckless".

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    25. Re:...which is why by sjames · · Score: 1

      In some places they do. In others, the breathalyzer is treated as iron-clad proof with no need for further testing.

    26. Re:...which is why by mark-t · · Score: 1

      There can, in fact, be legitimate reasons why they may not be permitted to take blood from you unless the person doing it is a licensed physician and more advanced immediate medical attention is available in the event of any complications. I know people like this. I don't know the name of the condition, but they have to wear a tag on their arm when they go out just like a person with diabetes.

      And for that matter, I've known a handful of people who completely abstain from alchohol, but will quite consistently blow over the legal limit in a breathalyzer, although blood analysis shows there's no alchohol present.

      Although I don't know anyone with both conditions, I can fairly easily imagine a situation where both circumstances apply to a single person.

    27. Re:...which is why by Falconnan · · Score: 1

      Technically it's not a conviction. It is considered a violation of the terms of licensing. Under US law one cannot be convicted except by a jury (or judge if a jury is declined). In some states refusal is a separate crime, but again, not an automatic conviction.

    28. Re:...which is why by mark-t · · Score: 1

      What would they do if your lawyer was in the car with you?

    29. Re:...which is why by Falconnan · · Score: 1

      This method of avoiding a false positive could be improved by the following:

      1. Two different machines testing
      2. Machines must be from different manufacturers
      3. Keep the delay and re-run mentioned

      Reasonable doubt relies on the notion that we have minimized statistical chances of error. This regimen may be tedious, but we can make sure the innocent are not caught up with the guilty. But yeah, don't be drunk behind the wheel. I have a little sympathy for the person on the very edge of the range, but none beyond.

    30. Re: ...which is why by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Also, I would ask for an extra vial be taken for independent analysis (by my lawyer).

      Smart move. There was a case recently (although I can't find a record of it), where a DUI case was thrown out because the person whose blood was taken was jailed and his possessions were stored, but his blood sample wasn't refrigerated.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    31. Re: ...which is why by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      They simply revoke your license.

      Naive. Don't try this folks. You will forfeit you license under the civil contract you broke with the Department of Transportation. And they *WILL* use that as evidence against you in a criminal case.

      Some people think they are so clever until they are *actually* up against the system.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    32. Re:...which is why by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      The only time they can force you to take a blood test, is if you were in an accident, and someone was hurt/killed, then you can be compelled.

      Driving impaired is a criminal offense. Refuse all you want. If they have probable cause, you can refuse everything, they are going to arrest you and take your blood anyway. There is no clever way to get yourself out of a DUI.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    33. Re: ...which is why by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Doesn't matter if you are guilty or not, ask the police to show a warrant first. If you don't want to defend the rights of all citizens then you stand the chance of losing your own rights.

    34. Re: ...which is why by Wulf2k · · Score: 1

      Circumstantial evidence against you is better than conclusive evidence against you.

      I'm pretty sure every lawyer will recommend you decline the test if there's the slightest chance of it being used against you.

      I'm not saying it's right, but that's the system.

    35. Re: ...which is why by kobaz · · Score: 1

      I would agree to requiring a warrant, that's fine.

      My main point was to respond to the AC "Never agree, lose the license and keep your record clean."

      If you are driving drunk and are stopped, we as a people have every right to have a history of you on record that you are a clear and present danger to society, whether or not you refuse testing.

      Also, if you are driving drunk and are stopped, and the police have reasonable suspicion you are drunk and fail a basic field sobriety test (non-invasive, non-breathalizer), there should be no issue getting a warrant to proceed with intrusive testing.

      --

      The goal of computer science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it.
    36. Re: ...which is why by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      That's not true on the east coast.

      In states around here, refusal to test is as bad as the worst alcohol score AND there is no first offender/pbj program.

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    37. Re: ...which is why by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      They have judges at sobriety check points for just that reason.

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    38. Re: ...which is why by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Refusal to submit is a worse crime with equivalent insurance consequences. It does not keep your record clean.

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    39. Re:...which is why by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      I'm saying this as a moderate (at best drinker) -- the .08 limit is pathetically, laughably low in terms of being an ACTUAL fucking public safety issue.
      Driving before morning coffee, or while tired is almost assuredly more of an impairment.

      It's a political 'thing', and shows us *exactly* what a 'think of the children mindset' results in. I can think of only a few instances where the presumption of innocence and due process for being searched is thrown out the window. DUI checkpoints? What kind of Soviet, GDR type nonsense is that?

      Now, it's true -- you probably shouldn't be driving after even a single drink -- BUT if someone blows a .09, should they have their professional and financial life ruined?

    40. Re:...which is why by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      Modern machines can tell ketones from alcohol. And testing procedure to admit results into court is 2 tests at least 17 minutes apart while monitoring the subject to make sure nothing goes in their mouth. The tests must be in good agreement to be admitted into court. That takes care of things like mouth alcohol.

    41. Re: ...which is why by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Refusal to submit is a worse crime with equivalent insurance consequences. It does not keep your record clean.

      Again, it depends on the state you live in, not all states have laws that are so draconian.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    42. Re:...which is why by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Driving impaired is a criminal offense. Refuse all you want. If they have probable cause, you can refuse everything, they are going to arrest you and take your blood anyway. There is no clever way to get yourself out of a DUI.

      Again, depends on your local STATE laws.

      What you state is NOT the case in every state....

      Just like every state does not require auto inspections, they all work differently with regards to just about all driving laws and regulations.

      Hell, the only reason it is now 21 in all states to drink...wasn't a federal law, but due to the Feds threatening to withhold highway funds, otherwise many states would still have legal drinking age of 18, and non-standard speed limits, etc.

      It is the same way with regards to impaired driving...it is up to the state, there are no federal standards for this.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    43. Re:...which is why by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      So you stopped driving years ago and haven't driven since. Great! That is not the person we are talking about here. It is after the alcohol has left your body you decide to drive again. How much is left to measure at that point.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    44. Re:...which is why by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      As an added bonus, that extra time waiting for the blood draw means your BAC is decreasing.

      Not necessarily. If you gulp down a few beers and quickly go drive, your BAC might be .04% when you get pulled over, and .10% later on.

    45. Re: ...which is why by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure every lawyer will recommend you decline the test if there's the slightest chance of it being used against you.

      Yup - when was the last time you saw a lawyer or judge submit to a roadside breath test?

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    46. Re:...which is why by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Bad figuring. You're only talking about 0.25^8 if the trials are truly independent. If they were all on one breathalyzer, it's reasonably likely that the breathalyzer was bad.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    47. Re:...which is why by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      You'll be cuffed in the back of the car before you finish that sentence.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    48. Re: ...which is why by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      That holds, to carrying degrees around here.

      Basically though, "speech was slurred, smelled alcohol" will pass muster in general. Police eyewitness is good enough evidence, as is a traffic violation in general.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    49. Re:...which is why by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      And what if your license was not issued by that state?
      Your license may be issued by another state, or even in another country. I've frequently rented cars in foreign countries using an international license.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    50. Re: ...which is why by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's worth noting that while simply accepted today, when introduced the need for a license to drive was considered somewhat controversial.

    51. Re:...which is why by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Bad figuring. You're only talking about 0.25^8 if the trials are truly independent. If they were all on one breathalyzer, it's reasonably likely that the breathalyzer was bad.

      Road side sobriety - the walk the line, close eyes touch nose, horizontal and vertical gazing nystagmus, etc. so they were independent tests.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    52. Re:...which is why by sjames · · Score: 1

      If you're going with the LCD, perhaps it should be zero. I see people with zero alcohol in their systems who are less coordinated than most people with 0.08 or higher and they're still allowed to drive.

    53. Re:...which is why by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I'm saying this as a moderate (at best drinker) -- the .08 limit is pathetically, laughably low in terms of being an ACTUAL fucking public safety issue.

      Nope, You're saying this as someone who either is an excellent functioning alcoholic, or as someone who is dangerously unaware of their own dysfunction. I'm betting it's the latter. There are a myriad of people out there who barely cope with the 0.05 limit that most countries have in place. There is a myriad of research that no consumption of alcohol what so ever comes without some form of measurable impairment. And there's daily statistics to show that even without impairment humans are causing enough problems behind the wheel. There's a reason why anyone driving in professional situations has this limit further reduced in many countries to 0.02.

      BUT if someone blows a .09, should they have their professional and financial life ruined?

      No. I agree no one's life should be ruined. But that has zero to do with BAC rules and everything to do with America's prison industrial complex that makes everyone in the country a horrid criminal. Fine people, prevent people from moving on, remove points from their license, but major events should be reserved for those who flout the law continuously, and I say major events because being disqualified from driving is major, but having a criminal conviction is life ruining and there's petty few people who deserve that from drinking alcohol without consequence (by that I mean they don't cause a huge accident or kill someone).

    54. Re:...which is why by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      As long as he wasn't convicted on the basis of bad math, I'm only mildly unhappy about it. I still don't like bad math, being a bit of a math addict.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    55. Re:...which is why by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      As long as he wasn't convicted on the basis of bad math, I'm only mildly unhappy about it. I still don't like bad math, being a bit of a math addict.

      No. It wasn't bad math since each was an independent event, just a bad argument by the lawyer. I had no doubt he was guilty, based on all the facts brought up at trial. It almost seemed as if the cop was giving him a chance to prove he was sober by retesting him repeatedly but the guy kept failing them. I was amazed the lawyer made that argument when she let people on the jury who thought math was fun and would see the fallacy in her argument. Perhaps she hoped she could sway one jury member and get them to hold out; that didn't happen. The good news was it took us a long time to agree on a verdict, no one simply wanted to get it over with but took their responsibility seriously. I later found out from the prosecutor that this wasn't his first time found guilty of DUI either, they just can't bring that up in court.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    56. Re:...which is why by spiritplumber · · Score: 1

      That occasionally happens regardless of whether you've done anything wrong or not, especially if you're black or an immigrant. Like every other unwanted but unavoidable interaction: be polite, be professional.

      --
      Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
    57. Re:...which is why by Takalow · · Score: 1

      More than half of all states have the legal authority to enact no-refusal DUI enforcement initiatives. In my state, if you refuse, it is an automatic conviction and you lose all driving privileges for one year, and then must have an intoxilyzer in your vehicle for a year after that. My sister-in-law attorney advises to never refuse. You have no recourse if you refuse. You can often get the sentence reduced, but never if you refuse.

    58. Re: ...which is why by reanjr · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if you can regularly pass physical roadside sobriety tests even when you blow above the limit, then refusing the breathalyzer - or at the very least, demanding a blood test - can be a smart move.

    59. Re:...which is why by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Continued trials with the same equipment and circumstances aren't independent. The certainty from the Breathalyzer tests was not much over 75%.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    60. Re:...which is why by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Continued trials with the same equipment and circumstances aren't independent. The certainty from the Breathalyzer tests was not much over 75%.

      Except,as I have pointed out, it was not using any equipment, but rather a series of roadside tests such as walk 17 steps in a straight line while counting them, then turn around and walk back... extend arms and touch nose with eyes closed... VGN and HGN, etc. The only thing in common was the condition of the driver and in some cases relating the same test after failing it previously. This wasn't a case where some piece of external equipment was not properly calibrated and failing in the same manner repeatedly; but failures of different tests. Had it been repeated breathalyzer tests then the argument may have been valid. Even if you take out the repeated tests that were failed (repeatedly) the probably of all being false positives and thus him being sober is .00098, small enough not to constitute reasonable doubt in our minds.

      The real question, for me, was why would an attorney chose, as the one point they want jurors to focus on to acquit, is clearly mathematically invalid AND put people on the jury that understand the underlying math? If she was going to make that argument offer something besides math as a reason for a false positive, such as a health or physical condition that generated the results while sober enough to drive. That is especially true when you know the video is going to be played in court and your client seems to think 15 is the number after 12, forgets the directions halfway through the test, and pokes himself in the forehead trying to touch his nose, as some examples of what we saw. The failures weren't borderline.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  2. Not in Europe by Ubi_NL · · Score: 4, Informative

    In .nl at least, these breathalyzers are used by police to do a quick test only. If the result is positive, the suspect is carted to a police station where a much more accurate machine is used to determine the blood alcohol levels. Only that ladt number is used as evidence.

    I was assuming all countries had similar methods.

    --

    If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
    1. Re:Not in Europe by war4peace · · Score: 2

      Same here in Romania.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    2. Re:Not in Europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Same here in Wakanda.

    3. Re:Not in Europe by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      Same here on Mars.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    4. Re:Not in Europe by will_die · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It really depends on the state. One major difference is that in the US taking of blood is consider unreasonable search so police have to show a reason or you have to volunteer to give it. Also in most US states the legal limit is higher than Europe. there are a few states that use the 0.05% limit but that is usually for minors. Everywhere else the limit is 0.08%
      In the majority of states you will require you to blow when stopped(where this machine looks to be used), that reading is worthless except to show that you had alcohol in your system; or you can request a blood test or refuse which means you automatically loose your license. At that point, if positive, you would be arrested. You will then be taken to the police station and required to blow into a more exact system and if below legal limit you are freed otherwise that previous arrest is still in effect and you will probably be prosecuted.
      the defense claim here is that the people were arrested because of faulty equipment and because of that they would of never been taken in for a blood or additional test. Since they should of never been arrested those additional tests were illegally taken and need to be thrown out and any convictions based on those need to be dismissed.

    5. Re:Not in Europe by tempmpi · · Score: 1

      A blood test is also considered a search that requires consent or a warrant in Germany. But there is always a judge on duty for quickly granting a warrant to allow the blood test, even if the suspect does not agree to the test. A positive breathalyzer is considered reason enough to grant a warrant.

      --
      Jan
    6. Re:Not in Europe by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if it's required throughout the US (it varies state by state). However, I think you can request it throughout the US.

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      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    7. Re:Not in Europe by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you automatically loose your license

      Lose.

      they would of never been taken

      would've

      The inability to spell on /. seems to be higher than in my daughter's elementary school class....

      Yeah, yeah, I know. Spelling isn't important. Get off my lawn!

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    8. Re:Not in Europe by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      In the US, you don't get pulled over unless there is reasonable suspicion that some law was violated. I am also not aware of any state that charges someone based only on the results of a roadside breathalizer machine. Those results are usually used in conjunction with other sobriety tests along with visual accounts from the officer.

      I have a hard time believing many, if any, convictions are overturned. My opinion is people who were arrested at DUI checkpoints are the only ones with a case, as there was no other law being broke at the time they were checked.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    9. Re:Not in Europe by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I was assuming all countries had similar methods.

      All civilised countries do.

      It's amazing how many people rant about seeing the source code for breathalysers (in case there's some hidden DWB routine or something) while actually believing in field sobriety tests which are purely subjective and also totally fucking rubbish. Disclaimer: I can't stand on one leg for more than two seconds if I'm stone cold sober two hours & three coffees after waking from the best night's sleep ever.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:Not in Europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Seems like a bogus argument. Basically they want the roadside equipment to be at least as accurate as the "at the station better and more accurate" equipment. Reasonable cause doesn't mean you have slam dunk conviction assured proof. It just means reasonable steps were taken before more legally "invasive" methods are allowed. I'm kind of sick of the law profession making it sound that perfection is both possible and required. All measurements have a certain degree of error. Saying that there is a possibility of error is always true and therefore meaningless. The real questions are how prone to error and what is a reasonable margin.

    11. Re:Not in Europe by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Same here on the Ringworld.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    12. Re:Not in Europe by Pascoea · · Score: 1

      The inability to spell on /. seems to be higher than in my daughter's elementary school class....

      The punctuation around here is horrible as well. Who uses ellipsis when not desiring to omit irrelevant portions of quoted material? And a period after ellipsis? The world we live in today, it's gone right to hell.

    13. Re:Not in Europe by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      It's the same as that in Canada. We use the Alcotest 7410 as a roadside screening device and the Intoxilyzer 7000 to do the actual certified test. I assume most of the worlds works that way, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out the US has an asinine system in place to help the lawyer make a fortune. Already on this thread I'm reading about field sobriety tests and blood tests. It's like they're still living in 1930.

    14. Re:Not in Europe by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      This is about the "Alcotest 9510" it is not a roadside test unit, this is the final verdict machine that is at question.

    15. Re:Not in Europe by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"It's amazing how many people rant about seeing the source code for breathalysers (in case there's some hidden DWB routine or something) while actually believing in field sobriety tests which are purely subjective and also totally fucking rubbish."

      Conversely, even an absolutely precise measure of blood alcohol is ALSO rubbish. It says nothing about how much an individual is or is not impaired.... unless you know THAT PERSON'S EXACT baselines. There are lots of very valid factors that can complicate how impaired someone is- weight, age, base reflexes, brain type, gender, tolerance. One person could be over the limit and barely impaired at all, while someone else could be UNDER the limit and totally wasted.

      Oh, and there are a zillion ways one could be "impaired" (intoxicated) that have nothing to do with alcohol. Illicit drugs, prescription drugs, lack of sleep, medical conditions, etc.

      Those "subjective" tests are actually very useful in quickly determining impairment. In fact, I think it would be great to ditch alcohol tests completely and use some technological device that tests reaction time objectively....

  3. Why on earth is the breathalyzer a final test by Riceballsan · · Score: 1

    For charges so serious, it doesn't make much sense to me. It's a test that in nature seems like it is just made for a quick rough assessment that is fast and easy to do in the field. Great for weeding out who is worth the time to take to the station for a real test.

    1. Re:Why on earth is the breathalyzer a final test by zwarte+piet · · Score: 1

      It isn't! At least in Netherlands where I live they do a blood test at the police station if the breathalyzer shows too much alcohol.

  4. Why does this need to be computerized? by davidwr · · Score: 2

    OK, I get it, the user interface etc. should be computerized for convenience.

    But the part that "holds up in court" should be as close to the raw data as possible, which can and probably should be analog or at the very least a very simple, relatively-easy-to-audit-for-correctness digital system.

    This web site describes a breathalyzer which appears to be analog. It also describes an intoxilyzer, which uses a microprocessor. If the electrical pulse being fed into the microprocessor can be captured for later playback in court, then the defense team's experts can interpret it using their own algorithms if they wish.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Why does this need to be computerized? by hey! · · Score: 4, Informative

      The issue isn't with the software per se, but what the examination of the software revealed about the units as a system. If you used op amps instead of microcontrollers most of those issues would still be there.

      The sensors used are temperature sensitive. The configuration used by the police disabled ambient temperature checks, which I guess you could call a digital issue. The device lacks a breath temperature sensor, which means that people with warmer than average breath could get false positives.

      These devices also should be re-calibrated after a fixed number of uses; instead the state was re-calibrating them on a fixed schedule. While that schedule might work for an *average* device, devices that had been heavily could b e giving spurious readings.

      On the flip side the device uses two different types of sensors to measure alcohol, and rejects readings where the sensors give different answers. This might mitigate some of the defects in how the state used them, but nobody can be sure. All we have is the assurance of the state authorities that the devices "have been tested to meet our business needs," without any specifics about what the test entailed.

      The danger of these things is that they give you a number and it all seems so scientific and precise. You don't get the hemming and hawing that comes with a human opinion, metadata that helps you decide how certain you should be of that opinion. Layman don't understand the limitations of technology, they assume the tech should "just work". I'd trust a sophomore engineering student to devise policy for using these things over a police chief with decades of law enforcement experience.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  5. All about the $$$ by Zorro · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A Drunk Driving conviction is big business in California.

    Of course they would tweak the test to get more and more money.

    You can easily spend $15K if you get one.

    1. Re:All about the $$$ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Same here in Texas. Williamson County makes buck on people whom they arrest for "DUI." Many of those don't take a breath test because they have been told not to, and up until this year (2018) there was no requirement for a blood test. The sad thing for those who are arrested is that it does cost somewhere in the range of 15K to adjudicate. Then there are the required fees, going to court, doing public service, taking alcohol and drug classes. Then, once that is successfully completed, your arrest record is still available, on line, for anyone who wishes to view it. I know people who have lost potential employment and have been harmed in current employment because it is assumed that just because you are arrested, you are guilty.

    2. Re:All about the $$$ by mlw4428 · · Score: 1

      California has an implied consent law which requires those arrested on suspicion of drunk driving to submit to chemical testing to establish BAC. Breathalyzers are generally used to establish cause for arrest. So while the test being inaccurate may throw out a lot of "potential reasoning" for arresting a person, there could be a multitude of other factors. Factors like smelling alcohol on the breath, improper driving, inability to pass a sobriety test, and certain medical indicators (non-responding eye dilation, etc) that might be used instead.

    3. Re:All about the $$$ by Ryn · · Score: 1

      Here's how it happened with my ex few years back in Travis county: she refused breathalyzer test, was taken to station where for whatever reason they did not draw blood.
      This happens before you even get to trial, which took about 6 months.
      The refusal alone suspends the drivers license.
      Then you hire a lawyer to represent you.
      Your lawyer applies for a temporary drivers license for go to/from work and you have to keep a log of your travels.
      While you wait for your temporary license to get approved you may get an itch to drive somewhere like movies/store/etc (this was pre-Uber)...should you get pulled over, you're now driving without license.
      Local cops also then remember what car you're driving and will basically just pull you over every time they see your car on the street, on the off chance you're still without license or not on your way to work/back home.
      You also don't want to tell your auto insurance company about your run in with the law (remember, you still haven't had a trial yet) so you have to go get temporary minimum auto insurance from one of those "minimal insurance with no credit check" places. Costs a few hundred upfront. Then you go to trial and if your lawyer didn't manage to convince every juror of your innocence you either go for mistrial and do it all over or prosecution offers you wreckless driving charge which you'll take.
      This process was not fun to witness. Innocent until proven guilty my ass.

  6. Time to get beyond blood alcohol levels by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The neurological deficits of drinking (and using many other drugs) persist long after blood levels have dropped to zero. So either develop tests that measure actual impairment (and bust a lot more people) or just admit that so many people are impaired but sliding under the limits that we may as well just let them drive.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Time to get beyond blood alcohol levels by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      If we did that we would solve the transportation crisis in one jiffy. Virtually nobody will be able to drive.

      Fortunately, those autonomous cars will be cruising down the pike Real Soon Now and all will be good. That and Amazon 30 minute delivery, virtual reality goggles, Brwando and 'bating.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Time to get beyond blood alcohol levels by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      WTF?

      Bullshit. They've gone way past testing for impairment. They're pushing for 0.05 now...the 'medical definition' of drunk is 0.15. Yes I realize the AMA eventually rolled over, but they made their point first. Your judgement goes to _shit_ at about 0.15, up till there, slower reactions.

      If 0.05 is, by definition, unable to drive, then 70 years old is, by definition, unable to drive.

      And yes, if you're massively hungover, odds are you are still 0.10. Monday morning is actually a fairly big time for DUI accidents/busts. All the serious alchies are going to work with hangovers + 'leftovers'. The really bad ones will have started the day with a hair of the dog.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Time to get beyond blood alcohol levels by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The neurological deficits of drinking (and using many other drugs) persist long after blood levels have dropped to zero.

      Citation please.

    4. Re:Time to get beyond blood alcohol levels by Ryn · · Score: 1

      Or we simply admit that most people shouldn't be allowed to drive in the first place. Quite often alcohol isn't even required for them to make an idiotic decision.

    5. Re:Time to get beyond blood alcohol levels by PPH · · Score: 1

      Virtually nobody will be able to drive.

      That suits me. We are a long way past the point at which we should have been culling bad drivers and using them to create a demand for public transit.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  7. Trust But Verify by crow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So in most cases they use the breathalyzer along with a field sobriety test to determine if they should arrest a driver, after which they normally draw a blood sample for a more precise test. (In most states, drivers can refuse the tests and receive an automatic license suspension, though that's often not as bad as a conviction, but it doesn't preclude a conviction based on the sobriety test alone.)

    So we have lots of cases where there is both breathalyzer test data and blood test data. This gives a huge amount of data that can be correlated. Also, the times of the test should be recorded, so expected declines due to delays between the two tests can be computed. So all we need to do is gather up the data from a few years of use, and then we can see what the reliability of the breathalyzer is in comparison to the blood test.

    We know that any test can fail (equipment failure, cross contamination, operator error, etc.), but this will give solid data on the expected error.

  8. Legal gambling ahead, stop drinking already! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Having worked at Draeger I am somewhat biased but I will also be able to provide a more in-depth description of the company itself. The company manufactures loads of equipment for diving (tanks, breathing apparatus), fire prevention, fire detection, infra-red cameras, alarm systems and more. Everything is obviously thoroughly documented, tested and accounted for due to risk of life. The R&D floor at the office I worked housed proper chemical and electronics labs containing millions of dollars worth of inventory. I find it hard to believe that there are "serious" issues with these breathalysers, especially considering they are sold not just in the US but dozens of other countries.

    The real issue is with police departments not taking proper care of these machines. Not following calibration procedures and using them in out of spec environments (eg. near an air conditioner set to full blast). I know for a fact officers using this equipment can't be bothered to read the "MOUTHPIECES ONLY" sign on the returns barrels as I usually found at least 20 USED needles, condoms, pills and other trash in every barrel.

    Regardless, this is just a bunch of convicted drunk drivers that want to argue numbers to get out of jail and refuse to drive sober. Even if the device was off by 6% (as claimed in the article), zero will still be zero.

    Lets be real, police officers are not fond of paperwork and they will only test you if they have good reason... When they see you swerve all over the road being at least twice over the legal limit, the test itself is just to prove objectively that you are drunk.

    If only these people would invest as much effort making sure people don't drink and drive, drunk drivers wouldn't be the cause of for the vast majority of accidents.

    1. Re:Legal gambling ahead, stop drinking already! by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Lets be real, police officers are not fond of paperwork and they will only test you if they have good reason

      Catching a sufficient number of violators is one way for them to ensure promotions. Which kinda makes sense... after all if Officer X caught 100 bad guys and Officer Y caught 2, it does make Officer X look better at his job (all other things being equal.)

      There are also rumors of quotas.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
  9. I need volunteers by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

    In building a breathalizer to detect wayyyyy too much drinking, one would think the first thing they did was extensively test the happy path.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:I need volunteers by Ken_g6 · · Score: 1

      Wait, I'm confused. Is the happy path the one that involves "happy hour"? Or is the happy path the one that involves not getting a DUI?

      --
      (T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
    2. Re:I need volunteers by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      One of my friends worked for a company which calibrated the units for the local police. He brought some home and we pulled it out at a party. Naturally this turned into a competition with a few people blowing 0.15 and up.

      Well these things have an audit trail in them which raised some eyebrows when the police printed it off when it was returned.

    3. Re:I need volunteers by laurencetux · · Score: 1

      then there was the frat house that THE BUILDING blew "legally drunk" (there was so much in the air that the units registered "drunk" from the ac blowing)

  10. double dumbass on YOU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why did you call him an asshole? He didn't say anything about driving drunk, and it's obviously assumed that everyone is talking about a situation where the driver is sober. But what do you do when a cop wants to test the sobriety? Don't we want to have DWI/DUI laws? If you have these laws, you need some way to investigate suspects. But impaling innocent people (yes, I'm using totally loaded language here, on purpose) is something most of us don't want.

    So a whole game develops in the middle ground of uncertainty. Go too far one way, and you don't really have effective laws against drunk driving. Go too far the other way, and you're poking holes in innocent people to make them bleed. Breathalysers were a great compromise .. if only they hadn't tried to keep the inner workings a secret from the very society that judges the accused, thereby making them bullshit "evidence." FAIL.

    Open up the breathalysers to auditing and maintenance and you'll have a useful technology. Just like we eventually determine with everything else that's important (e.g. the software in your desktop computer). Anything you can't audit, is bullshit.

    1. Re:double dumbass on YOU by Falconnan · · Score: 1

      Why did you call him an asshole? He didn't say anything about driving drunk, and it's obviously assumed that everyone is talking about a situation where the driver is sober. But what do you do when a cop wants to test the sobriety? Don't we want to have DWI/DUI laws? If you have these laws, you need some way to investigate suspects. But impaling innocent people (yes, I'm using totally loaded language here, on purpose) is something most of us don't want.

      So a whole game develops in the middle ground of uncertainty. Go too far one way, and you don't really have effective laws against drunk driving. Go too far the other way, and you're poking holes in innocent people to make them bleed. Breathalysers were a great compromise .. if only they hadn't tried to keep the inner workings a secret from the very society that judges the accused, thereby making them bullshit "evidence." FAIL.

      Open up the breathalysers to auditing and maintenance and you'll have a useful technology. Just like we eventually determine with everything else that's important (e.g. the software in your desktop computer). Anything you can't audit, is bullshit.

      This! So much this!

    2. Re:double dumbass on YOU by Immerman · · Score: 1

      >He didn't say anything about driving drunk

      Sure he did:
      > when you submit and get convicted
      When. Not If. And if the blood test convicts you, then you were driving drunk.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re:double dumbass on YOU by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      I think that was a great reply you made, I just want to mention that breathalyzers work by detecting the 'ethanol' that your blood exudes into your lungs. Lots of people think eating something will help, it won't. If you have alcohol in your system there is no way to keep your body from 'out-gassing' it into your lungs.

      It detects ketones too. So if you are in ketosis, because you skipped you veggies yesterday, you can be stone cold sober and the machine will light up positive.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    4. Re:double dumbass on YOU by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Skipping your veggies doesn't put you in ketosis. Not eating carbs and sugars does. It takes longer than a day to enter ketosis, though as the body has to become fat adapted.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    5. Re:double dumbass on YOU by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Reread the thread - this entire thread, right to the topmost reply to he article, is about blood. Even Reanjr's comment, to which AC posted the "when you get convicted" statement, was specifically about needles.

      I full agree with you about actual competency tests being far preferable. Unfortunately they'd also be far more expensive - at a minimum you'd need a high quality driving simulator available in-cruiser, or get you back to the station for immediate testing there, before you have a chance to sober up.

      And high quality is the watch word - it needs to be a realistic enough scenario so that existing real-life skills translate directly - a screen, or even current VR's peripheral vision blinders, are going to really throw off a lot of people's situational awareness, especially non-gamers.

      We could perhaps design a "game" that (supposedly) tests attention, reaction times, etc., but it's extremely unlikely it would be an accurate assessment, and then we'd be punishing perfectly competent drivers for not being good at learning new games. Just a different version of the existing problem.

      As it is though you're unlikely to be pulled over in the first place unless you're driving erratically (DWI checkpoints and dark skin notwithstanding). And if you have a high BAC, AND are driving erratically near a police officer, then you were almost certainly guilty of at least not paying enough attention to driving given your level of impairment.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re:double dumbass on YOU by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Veggies are carbs, guy. If you don't know that, you aren't going to make it. https://www.ditchthecarbs.com/...

    7. Re:double dumbass on YOU by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      What office are you running for so I can vote for you?

    8. Re:double dumbass on YOU by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Skipping your veggies doesn't put you in ketosis. Not eating carbs and sugars does. It takes longer than a day to enter ketosis, though as the body has to become fat adapted.

      I was speaking glibly. I'm a full time plant matter avoider and know well how to be in and out of ketosis.

      The point is still valid, these devices will peg someone on a ketogenic diet as being drunk.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    9. Re:double dumbass on YOU by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Some are, some aren't. I was keto for the better part of 5 years so I'm well aware of such things. However, the primary drivers for a ketogenic diet are: high-fat, low-carbs, and moderate to low protein. Nowhere on that list you'll notice is "skip vegetables". Non and low carb vegetables: all salad-type greens, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, etc... Here's a couple of lists for you friend:
      https://www.dietdoctor.com/low...
      https://www.healthline.com/nut...

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    10. Re:double dumbass on YOU by losfromla · · Score: 1

      On a forum full of detail-oriented type of people you decided to be sloppy? Good move! ;-)

      As to your point on the sensors detecting ketones, I didn't disagree as you've no doubt noticed. I didn't disagree because I really know nothing about them so I took it as given that you were correct on that point. Which was actually sloppy of me considering that you were wrong on the topic that I did know about, I blame my laziness..

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    11. Re:double dumbass on YOU by sjames · · Score: 1

      Based on what we know about drug testing in Massachusetts, not necessarily.

    12. Re:double dumbass on YOU by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or if you are overdue for your insulin.

    13. Re:double dumbass on YOU by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Yep. That's why I don't eat plants.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    14. Re:double dumbass on YOU by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Ahh, but carnivory is still an option.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  11. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  12. Re:Tinder has the solution. by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

    All the chubby chasers would fail....

  13. the field sobriety tests are what scare me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    first, I'm just a generally clumsy person

    second, I have a bad knee, actually one really bad knee and another knee that isn't great because of decades of compensating for the other one

    those two things together mean that I could be as sober as the proverbial deacon and fail all that mess about walking a straight line toe to heel, standing on one leg, whatever

  14. Has nobody heard of black box testing by Snotnose · · Score: 1

    Jeez, this diverges into rantings about various DUI laws when IMHO the real issue is "Can we prove it's accurate without looking at the source?". IMHO, yeah. You specify the list of requirements, neither knowing nor caring how the magic box does it's magic, and if it passes the tests it's good to go.

    If you have half a brain you automate these tests and retest the things every once in a while, like maybe while your taking the blood/urine sample and booking your suspect into jail.

    And yes, I've written a few fully automated and some semi-automated test suites.

  15. What is the estimated false postive rate? by larryjoe · · Score: 1

    From the article, the findings from the defense experts were scenarios that could result in false positives. But, what's the false positive rate as a function of the reading? That's what's important. Readings are just samples that estimate the true characteristic. The experts found that readings near the legal threshold could be inaccurate. However, that should have been obvious even without examining the system. The real question is what the confidence levels as the readings get near the legal threshold. That crucial information may not be knowable by only examining the software. However, inaccuracy from a measurement device doesn't mean that the device is useless. All measurement devices are inaccurate. The key to practical usage is understanding the expected confidence in the measurements.

  16. If you are taking the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You already failed.

    If you are pulled over for something stupid, and you have the slightest wiff of alcohol on you, you are guilty of DUI in most jurisdictions. The breathalyzer and the limit is just to take subjectivity out of it.

  17. Nothing to see here. by Jason1729 · · Score: 2

    The Alcotest is a roadside screening device. People who fail the road side test are then taken to a station (or mobile truck during RIDE type programs) for a more precise test.

    The roadside screening only has to give the police officer reasonable and probable grounds to arrest the person and continue with the investigation and subsequent test. Even if this result proved 100% that the Alcotest produces a lot of false positives, it casts zero doubt on any convictions or even matters currently going through the courts. The cops would have had RPG on a good-faith basis and every right to have proceeded.

    Going forward, it may be possible to argue that with the alcotest proven unreliable it can no longer be used to establish RPG, but even that won't be automatic because the roadside screening device isn't really required if the cop can say their were sufficient signs of impairment to arrest on impaired driving rather than over 80. The over 80 can then be laid at the station if the person blows over.

    TL;DR nothing to see here.

  18. self driving cars fixes this by MooseTick · · Score: 2

    Yet another thing self driving cars will fix. Once those are standard, there will be no more DUIs. There will also be no more tickets for speeding, running red lights, failure to maintain control, reckless driving, or any other moving violations.

    Sadly, I think cops will hate this. They want to be able to have a reason to pull someone over, especially if they are black (and this is coming from a white male who reeks white privilege). They will also fear this will eliminate a need for a major part of their job. I don't know the number, but suspect a sizable percentage of police activity involves traffic enforcement. If cars are driving themselves, their need will greatly diminish. At some point, municipalities will decide they don't need to pay someone to enforce laws that aren't being broken and there is no longer a threat to society by drunk and reckless drivers. I'm not sure what the final outcome will be, but it doesn't look good for the men in blue.