Giant African Baobab Trees Die Suddenly After Thousands of Years (theguardian.com)

Some of Africa's oldest and biggest baobab trees have abruptly died, wholly or in part, in the past decade, according to researchers. From a report: The trees, aged between 1,100 and 2,500 years and in some cases as wide as a bus is long, may have fallen victim to climate change, the team speculated. "We report that nine of the 13 oldest ... individuals have died, or at least their oldest parts/stems have collapsed and died, over the past 12 years," they wrote in the scientific journal Nature Plants, describing "an event of an unprecedented magnitude." "It is definitely shocking and dramatic to experience during our lifetime the demise of so many trees with millennial ages," said the study's co-author Adrian Patrut of the Babes-Bolyai University in Romania. Among the nine were four of the largest African baobabs. While the cause of the die-off remains unclear, the researchers "suspect that the demise of monumental baobabs may be associated at least in part with significant modifications of climate conditions that affect southern Africa in particular." Further research is needed, said the team from Romania, South Africa and the United States, "to support or refute this supposition."

Comments

Well now we know how the cat is doing

[SuperKendall]

Baobob trees were fine for thousands of years... ...until 2005 when researches started examining them, then nearly 70% of the oldest ones die.

HMM.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[oic0]

Nope! definitely climate change. Always climate change.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[thomst]

SuperKendall mused:

Baobob trees were fine for thousands of years... ...until 2005 when researches started examining them, then nearly 70% of the oldest ones die.

HMM.

I highly doubt climate change did them in. It just doesn't work that way.

I suspect a newly-introduced pathogen is responsible, as turned out to be the case with sudden oak death syndrome a few years ago.

Don't get me wrong. I do, indeed, expect climate change to negatively impact baobob trees, and many, many other species (coastal and montane redwoods, anyone?) - eventually. Just not yet, and not this suddenly ...

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[DarkOx]

Makes you wonder. I have a oak that is about a century old on my property. The damn carpenter ants are attacking it. The arborist checked it out recently (I love this giant old tree). He said there is not much you can do. Bugs get oaks eventually its what ultimately kills them all. You take it down or you can just wait and let it fall down when its time comes (it won't hit anything but other trees) is what I was advised.

He also told me trees that age don't recover from shocks as easily as younger trees. Don't limb it anymore, if you want to let it go and see how long she lasts. Only cut obviously dead limbs out. Otherwise leave it alone, look enjoy don't touch. Was the rest of his advice.

A few points
1) Trees like all organisms have a finite life span (maybe these baobab trees are just getting to that age)
2) Trees like all things can only take so much abuse maybe being studied is in someway harmful to them.

Re: Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

They sound like they were blocking someone's views. Probably some copper nails in them too

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Greyfox]

Yeah, we've got the ash borer in Colorado. For 45 years I'd never seen a tree die at any house I lived at, then all of a sudden 3 of them in one year. And the pine beetle was killing the hell out of the pine trees up in the park, too. You'd come around a mountain curve and all the trees on the side of the mountain would be dead. Crazy. Guess it's a bad decade for trees.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Pathogens may themselves be the result of climate change. An organism that previously existed only within some very narrow bounds of tolerance, may find that it can now thrive across a much wider area.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just saying - even if it was a pathogen, that doesn't mean climate change had nothing to do with it.

Yes, it's conjectural, but so is the whole "pathogen" hypothesis.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[blindseer]

Just not yet, and not this suddenly ...

Using "suddenly" and "over 12 years" together does not compute. I'd be interested in seeing some kind of evidence on how these trees fared in the past. It's quite amazing for these trees to have lived for so long but it would seem feasible to me that 1000 years ago we could have seen trees of this type die off then too. The changing of the climate then could have also done them in.

Consider an analogous situation on a human. We see a 150 year old man fall ill and die. Do we blame this on climate change too? Perhaps his diet of only fresh milk and fruit killed him. Maybe it was the pipes he smoked when he was in his 40s, 50s, and 60s. Or maybe it just that he's 150 years old and a person living this long is quite unusual to begin with and it's impossible to tell what the final nail in his coffin was.

A more humorous take on this human analogy... I recall a TV character making fun of another about how he takes such great care to eat healthy, exercise, abstain from alcohol, not smoke, and generally fixate on living for a long time. The punch line was something about looking foolish in his old age, lying in a hospital bed, dying of NOTHING. Everything alive dies sometime, pinning the cause on something specific can be a fool's errand.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Patent Lover]

I was just in Rocky Mountain National park last week. Their paper they give you says that now 65% of the pine trees in the park are dead due to the pine beetles. Sobering and sad.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Luckyo]

Far more common case is that people who study trees carry pathogens that jump cross tree species. Another point is that studying trees involves invasive procedures like drilling holes in them to make assessments of age, and as any arborist worth his salt will tell you, older trees are very bad at recovering from such shocks than young trees.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

There's an old saying that oaks take three hundred years to grow, three hundred years to live, and three hundred years to die.
(mentioned e.g. here)

I'm sorry to hear that yours may not last that long.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

North Carolina used to have oaks so big that the entire floor of a room could be made from a slab cut through the center of it (and some were). In other words, they were larger in diameter than the shortest measure of a typical room. Sadly, none today come close.

Imagine how long those took to grow.

And guess what... there were people there the whole time. It was only when people of European descent invaded that the trees were utilized in a non-sustainable fashion.

Trees fall to disease early today because of the harsher environment they are in.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

"I suspect a newly-introduced pathogen is responsible" - Pathogens are finding new territories worldwide as the climate change makes that possible, in fact. Sudden Oak Death is a perfect example.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Jzanu]

Don't ignore ecology: why are there more ants alive and foraging for food specifically in your area, and in such elevated numbers that they kill century old trees? Elevated temperatures increase the hatching of innumerable insects, shift them to earlier in the year, they then act as food for the ants, etc.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[plover]

This has long been a concern of mine. Our area used to be in agricultural "Zone 2", meaning we'd usually experience a few day snap of -22F winter weather. This killed off a wide variety of non-native pests, such as those that arrived here on trucks and railcars from warmer clones during the summers. After a decade of record warm winters, we've been re-classified as Zone 4 and the transient beasts never die off now. So we've now got emerald ash borers; gypsy moths; new wasps, bees, and ants; and various roaches and snakes we've never had to deal with before, They're killing vast numbers of native trees and plants.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

climate change increasing pathogen range is way beyond the understanding of a closed-minded idiot. A lot of people think the Earth is flat. I mean when you are there, how do you get to second or third-level systems thinking? It's amazing how close-minded people can be, their brain "protecting" them. How... lesser-evolved animal-like of them. Almost like we evolved from, well, lesser animals. Damnit I hate the half of the populace holding the earth down. :( They are the same people that litter, too. Because someone else will pick it up.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[phantomfive]

Makes you wonder. I have a oak that is about a century old on my property. The damn carpenter ants are attacking it. The arborist checked it out recently (I love this giant old tree).

Well get rid of the carpenter ants, anyway.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem also is that people will become desensitized to the scientific notion of 'climate change" when it is used inaccurately to describe natural phenomena that happens for other reasons.

Re: Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how you romanticize the application of cutting and ancient tree for a room. Then lament them being used in unsustainable ways when the evil white man arrived.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Jane Q. Public]

If some of them were even close to 2,000 years old, they have survived both much warmer and much colder conditions than today.

The Medieval Warm Period was 300 years long.

Re: Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

That was my thought too. They probed the trees to radiocarbon their ages, then suddenly the started dying off. That makes you wonder...

It seems more like that their probing creates a new pathway for vectors to attack the tree, that the tree spent a millennia hardening. Perhaps it was a bacteria or some bug that for billions of generations has been unsuccessful at penetrating the tree's exterior until some Romanian "scientists" came by and simply breached the trees defenses for...science.

Re: Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA: Collating data on girth, height, wood volume and age, they noted the "unexpected and intriguing fact" that most of the very oldest and biggest trees died during the study period.

Coincidence? Not very likely. Sure they may have been old and susceptible to pathogens. The very fact that they died during the study period seems to point to the study as the impetus. It's entirely possible that new vectors have arisen due to climate change that the trees have no defenses for. For example, some fuckwits drilling holes in ancient trees in the name of climate change. Whether they plugged the probe holes with some kind of (native?) resin or not, this activity still stresses the tree.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Tablizer]

Dr. Schrodinger examined them.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, if it was common for those men to live to 600 years and they all died suddenly within 2 months.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[thomst]

An Anonymous Coward opined:

Pathogens are finding new territories worldwide as the climate change makes that possible, in fact. Sudden Oak Death is a perfect example.

Yes, pathogens are spreading globally. Whether that's related to climate change depends on the particular pathogen and the circumstances of its appearance in new locations.

I doubt SOD is an example of climate change-mediated pathogen migration. I think it's far more likely that it was imported on the shoes of hikers who had previously visited South Asia. There are lots of Northern Californians who have traveled to Nepal, for instance, or to popular locations in the Himalayan foothills in India, such as Jammu and Kashmir, where SOD is suspected to have originated, who also enjoy hiking in California state and national parks.

It's a fact that researchers themselves were important vectors for SOD in California. (It was, as you might expect, kind of a big deal there - and those researchers were very publicly apologetic once they realized what they'd accidentally done.)

I'm just glad the oaks on our property weren't infected ...

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[thomst]

blindseer commented:

Using "suddenly" and "over 12 years" together does not compute.

I beg to disagree.

When several 1500-2000 year old trees die in the same area over a period of 12 years, for no apparent reason, I'd call that "sudden."

In fact, that's exactly what I did call it. In terms of your analogy, if a half-dozen 150-year-olds die in the same area over a period of 12 months, for no apparent reason, I'd also call that "sudden," because it's the cluster of deaths that would make them stand out. One 150-year-old dying for no apparent reason is just a datum. 3 or more dying in the same area over a short time (relative to the length of their lives) is unusual enough to warrant a search for a common cause, rather than simply saying, "Oh, well. They were old. What can you do?"

Were I living in that area, and approaching my 150th birthday, I'd certainly want answers - and a ticket to somewhere else ... !

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[fatwilbur]

I call BS on this anecdote after reading into it.. most agricultural zone systems have levels separated by multiple degrees (F), and there's no place on earth that's experienced that level of warming over a single decade. The periods like that which I can find (they do exist) were typically in the past and part of random noise in the data; eg. there were always periods of very cold winters to follow. No different from flipping heads 10 times in a row - it does occur in large variable data sets but not common. Even the reference documentation I can find (all climate change advocate sites) note changes to ag zones typically occur over 30 year periods or more.

While local fauna may no doubt have to adapt to new threats in the future, the much, much larger and quicker threat is invasive species introduction by human means.

Oh and know what else that ag zone shift means? The area can support growing much more food, and much more valuable food.

Re: Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Already DEAD ancient trees, you insufferable "VOTER" (read: pseudo-person worse than a moron).

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

... being studied is in someway harmful to them.

Exactly! As we all know, observation causes the wave function to collapse, and clearly too many people have observed these trees.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Maxo-Texas]

It's a bit more than that.

It's like a half dozen people between 40 and 85 all suddenly died in the same area over a period of less than a 6 months.

The trees were between "1,100 and 2,500".

The young 1,100 year old trees contradict the age argument.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[arglebargle_xiv]

The purpose of the study was to learn how these Africans become so enormous

Two words for the scientists: "Chicken Licken".

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Like seasonal flues (and the Spanish flu, and the black plague...), plant pathogens mutate and spread when homeostasis breaks over sudden temperature and humidity changes.

It's why it doesn't really matter if it's global warming or cooling. What matters is that there are rapid changes that are too fast for the crops to adapt to. The bees getting killed by insecticides was such a problem: The direct harm from the poison wasn't so bad but even if just 10% of a hive suddenly end up dead, the likelihood of plagues and food chain contamination increases exponentially. So when applied to almost all the hives in a region, everyone dies.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Also clearing of any land creates a climate change these tree's live in a fragile sub climate,they rely on other tree's to survive,even if they are the biggest.
People do not realize that taking one tree from a forest can affect rainfall and bring cold weather causing the forest the dry out.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Trees like all organisms have a finite life span (maybe these baobab trees are just getting to that age)

I think we can all agree it's unlikely that trees having ~2000 years of age, that happen to be dying all at the same time, were all planted at the same time. Statistically it's highly unlikely that 9 of the 13 oldest trees of a species are from the same decade or so.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't go to the hospitals people dies there! Very good line of reasoning. +5 Interesting. Oh forgot, I am on /. Sigh.

Time line :
1. the trees are getting ill ;
2. researchers start to study the cause because they are sick ;
3. the trees die ;
4. /.tters conclude the cause is the researcher ;
5. ...
6. PROFIT!

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[valnar]

Are you getting in a car to go to work? I'm pretty sure liberals drive just as much.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

over 50 some years my area has gone from a low zone 4 to a mid zone 5... while we haven't been reclassified officially on the maps, the reality is the annual low temperatures aren't getting down to the -30f they used too... they are only getting down to -15F or -10F...

If a region was a high zone 2 they could very reasonable be a zone 4 now...

So I call BS on your call of BS, because I've watched it happen as I've been gardening, but if that's not enough, here is some data from a meteorologist... https://blogs.mprnews.org/updraft/2016/01/thursday-thaw-how-cold-will-minnesota-get-this-winter/

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

You win the argument!

Your opponent does not abide 100% by the ideal standards they are defending,
ergo the only honest intellectual solution is to not care and do nothing.

(FWIW, I don't condone the offensive wording of the GP either)

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[religionofpeas]

Well get rid of the carpenter ants, anyway.

Or ask them to make you a bookshelf, or something. Try to keep them busy with useful stuff instead of eating trees.

Re: Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Holi]

"North Carolina used to have oaks so big that the entire floor of a room could be made from a slab cut through the center of it (and some were). In other words, they were larger in diameter than the shortest measure of a typical room."

I would hardly call this romanticizing. It's just stating a fact.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[drinkypoo]

Yeah, and some of those pathogens and insect Invaders are probably spreading due to climate change. We know for sure that it's happening with insects.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you afraid of being wrong? Why do you let your own biases result in emotional outbursts? Do you really believe you are above the bell-curve median? And that this alone allows you to believe and act and feel the way you do?

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

This has long been a concern of mine. Our area used to be in agricultural "Zone 2", meaning we'd usually experience a few day snap of -22F winter weather. This killed off a wide variety of non-native pests, such as those that arrived here on trucks and railcars from warmer clones during the summers.

We have native parasites where I'm from that are doing better because of the mild winters. Unfortunately that leads to similar problems. Our moose population is down because the mild winters lead to more wood ticks.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[laie_techie]

Don't go to the hospitals people dies there! Very good line of reasoning. +5 Interesting. Oh forgot, I am on /. Sigh.

Time line : 1. the trees are getting ill ; 2. researchers start to study the cause because they are sick ; 3. the trees die ; 4. /.tters conclude the cause is the researcher ; 5. ... 6. PROFIT!

Only we don't know that the trees were getting ill.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[terrycarlino]

You could actually try to find out why the trees are dying rather than propose an hypothesis base on nothing.

It couldn't possibly be due to an unknown pathogen, parasite or chemical/ecological conditions.

You know it's not science if you're just guessing based on your politics.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Citizen of Earth]

If anything kills plants dead, it's CO2!

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

If it aint broken, don't fix it.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Agent0013]

The trees also form a network under the ground. The roots are connected to fungus and they share nutrients and sugars back and forth. If you start killing off some of the other trees it can affect the others nearby, even different species.

A link to a RaidoLab episode if anyone is interested.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Luckyo]

Baobabs tend to grow far away from any major forested areas. Wikipedia has pretty good images of common habitat of them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Luckyo]

Scientists do need to take samples from the tree to establish data for data sets so they can actually do scientific work.

Unfortunately much of such sampling is highly invasive, such as drilling out small parts of the tree.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[cthulhu11]

Hooray for snakes!

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

An 8 degree C increase in minimum temperature is a heck of a lot in 50 years.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, here in California, we have a psyllid that never used to be able to overwinter in our central valley. Basically, it was never a problem North of San Diego/Orange County (Where I live, currently) Well, now they are heading North and it is being tracked and studied by several researchers. It is due to our local weather trends and how they are changing. It just so happens that these insects also carry a bacterial disease that is easily spread and is becoming a big problem for the susceptable crops. An introduced species that is a carrier of a disease these trees have no defense against may be a place to look.

Re: Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Anonymous Coward]

More likely caused by global trade than climate change.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[thomst]

Maxo-Texas pointed out:

It's a bit more than that.

It's like a half dozen people between 40 and 85 all suddenly died in the same area over a period of less than a 6 months.

The trees were between "1,100 and 2,500".

The young 1,100 year old trees contradict the age argument.

Good point.

I'd mod you +1 Insightful, if I could ...

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[thomst]

Jane Q. Public noted:

If some of them were even close to 2,000 years old, they have survived both much warmer and much colder conditions than today.

The Medieval Warm Period was 300 years long.

Good point.

I'd mod you +1 Informative, if I could ...

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Maxo-Texas]

Well I would mark you +1, Nice and Agreeable. :-)

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[thomst]

Maxo-Texas confessed:

Well I would mark you +1, Nice and Agreeable. :-)

While I appreciate and thank you for the compliment, the fact is that scoring points doesn't interest me. I'd much rather participate in and encourage thoughtful, fact-based discussions of this and other subjects. For me, that means awarding mod points on that basis, rather than because the poster agrees or disagrees with me.

I also very much appreciate it when people who respond to my posts point out salient facts that I've overlooked or failed to give sufficient weight.

I try very hard not to view discussions of important issues as zero-sum games ...

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Maxo-Texas]

As I hope you can tell from my post, I prefer fact-based, civil conversation.

Disagreement indicates a potential for learning unless the person disagreeing is irrational.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[plover]

I call BS on this anecdote after reading into it.. most agricultural zone systems have levels separated by multiple degrees (F), and there's no place on earth that's experienced that level of warming over a single decade.

Minnesota has always had pronounced extremes of weather, from -60F (-51C) to +114F (+45C). And this wasn't simply a single ten year rise in averages - the temps have been steadily rising since my childhood (several decades ago), back when we were Zone 2B. I was just noting that the last decade has not only continued the rise; but the old extremes no longer contain the current temperature range. Given that our average annual temperature has been rising by an average of 0.776F per decade, it's not all that surprising.

Also, we should be taking into account that plant hardiness zones aren't defined by the average temperature, but by the coldest minimum temperature experienced during a winter. It's those periods of extremes that kill off the non-hardy plants and animals, and that give the native plants the chance to outlast the invaders.

Re:Well now we know how the cat is doing

[Jane Q. Public]

You know, it's funny.

Slashdot used to be a civilized, high-tech-and-science-oriented place.

But these days, make one simple factual statement that goes against the narrative, and get marked down (as I did).

It's pretty sickening, really. The extent some people will go to push lies.

"Further research is needed"

[Anonymous Coward]

We will never hear anything about this ever again.

Re:"Further research is needed"

[Anonymous Coward]

We will never hear anything about this ever again.

While they would have trouble getting funded in America, these scientists are based out of Romania. As members of an EU nation, their odds are probably higher.

Re:A confession

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump and Russian trolls are working overtime. wow

If that is true, become a whistle blower and actually try to help civilization. But alas, it's not, so why am I even feeding the trolls?

Confirmation Bias

[Tulsa_Time]

Get ready.

Re:Confirmation Bias

[Anonymous Coward]

CONFIRMED!

Re:Confirmation Bias

[Anonymous Coward]

The Apprentice is an American reality television program that judges the business skills of a group of contestants. It has run in various formats across fifteen seasons since January 2004 on NBC.

Life does not thrive

[Anonymous Coward]

...In a roasting oven. It's simply too hot over all.

Re:Life does not thrive

[Anonymous Coward]

We're cooking ourselves and everything, literally!

Re:Life does not thrive

[bane2571]

Except that plant life tends to thrive in a warmer, CO2 rich environment. I'm no Baobab expert but "climate change" IE CO2 increase causing temperature increase, should have a positive impact on the growth of many plants.

Saying climate change killed these plants is pretty farcical without defining an actual mechanism.

from the article: "Between 2005 and 2017, the researchers probed and dated âoepractically all known very large and potentially oldâ ". If we're looking for something that changed, researchers poking and prodding the trees is an interesting possibility that the article doesn't indicate has been eliminated as a cause.

Re:Life does not thrive

[rahvin112]

You aren't any kind of biological expert of any kind. This has nothing to do with CO2 affecting the tree, it's about the change in the climate, in particular in this case changing rainfall patterns in the area of the world where these trees grow.

They are blaming climate change because the trees exist in a part of the world that has seen one of the biggest changes in rainfall in the world over the last 20 years with around a 40% reduction in annual rainfall for over two decades. That change in rainfall amount has a drastic effect on the oldest trees because they are less able to handle changes and need significant amounts of water due to their size.

Re:Life does not thrive

[Anonymous Coward]

Warmer... Depends on the starting point and the plant and water. In Africa it is entirely possible for plants to find themselves in a newly hot, dry climate they are not suited for.

Re:Life does not thrive

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that plant life tends to thrive in a warmer, CO2 rich environment. I'm no Baobab expert but "climate change" IE CO2 increase causing temperature increase, should have a positive impact on the growth of many plants.

I am not a Baobab expert either, but where I live it is typically too cold for some plants. This leaves room for other plants that can handle the cold.
Had it been warmer here the plants you typically find further south would have pushed the plants we currently have out.

Re:Life does not thrive

[Anonymous Coward]

>Except that plant life tends to thrive in a warmer, CO2 rich environment.

I am a Biologist. And for one, I call bullshit. It definitively does not work like that! Every plant species have a range of temperature, humidity, soil hydrometry, soil acidity, CO2 concentration, soil NH4 concentration, ... at which they are able to survive. Outside the range, they die. There is an optimum at which they thrive. Surprisingly (hint: joke), the optimal range is near the range in which they survived for thousands of years (hint: natural selection). Additionally, a lot of trees needs a pollinator in order to reproduce. This pollinator (for example, bees) in turn needs specific concentration of O2 (and CO2) in the air and specific temperatures to survive.

On the scale of the actual climate change, the natural selection have not enough time to do his jobs for the trees (life time centuries).

Re:Life does not thrive

[eaglesrule]

"It is very surprising to visit monumental baobabs, with ages greater than a thousand to two thousand years, which seem to be in a good state of health, and to find them after several years fallen to the ground and dead," Adrian Patrut, a researcher at Babes-Bolyai University, told National Geographic. "Statistically, it is practically impossible that such a high number of large old baobabs die in such a short time frame due to natural causes."--source

These trees are also a type of succulent, like a cactus, that evolved to store water within its trunk in order to be better drought resistant. A few years of reduced rainfall would seem to be a 'natural cause' this researcher would be willing to rule out.

While I'm not arguing that stress from environmental factors could not have caused the complete collapse of these trees, I have to have some cynicism towards the people who were in contact with these trees are also making the claim. If they introduced a pathogen into the tree or the soil due to negligence on their part, that resulted in the death of specimens that were also considered notable landmarks, would they take responsibility for it?

Either way, I want to see more evidence before leaping to the conclusion this is climate change related.

Re:Life does not thrive

[bane2571]

You're right but I never once said that climate change specifically didn't harm the Baobabs, what I did say was that there is no mechanism mentioned only the nebulous "Climate change" which is generally, warmer temps, more CO2. Surely you would agree that for an incredibly heat tolerant, low water species like the Baobab, those two specific factors increasing should at least have no effect and at best be helpful.

You've thrown in a few other red herrings that are not related to my point: "humidity, soil hydrometry, soil acidity, soil NH4 concentration" the article never mentions these as a mechanism for the death of the Baobab so the fact that they could have been, further proves my point. Your pollinator point is flawed because these are not species failing because of lack of reproduction, they are individuals dying.

I want to reiterate that my main point was that there is no claimed process by which climate change killed these trees, only a statement that it did. That just feels dishonest, "Climate Change" should never be seen as some monolithic beast that just makes bad stuff happen, it makes anyone claiming that look simple.

Well, what did they think would happen?

[ScentCone]

You stop using ground-up rhinoceros horn fertilizer on the trees, and look what happens.

Re:Well, what did they think would happen?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are all Trump retards this boring?

Re:Well, what did they think would happen?

[Anonymous Coward]

After almost 2 years of your shit, I'll tell you what's boring.

trumptrumptrumptrumptrumptrumptrumptrumptrumptrump....

Re:Wow

[Fly Swatter]

or at least their oldest parts/stems have collapsed and died

So they still have newer growth that is not dead, so.... Not even dead yet.

As to a political angle, couldn't care less about that.

Re:Segregation is the answer

[vux984]

"Remove all minorities back to their origin"

Quick Mexico! Flood the borders. If you can tilt the scales so that you have the majority, this asshat has just agreed to deport himself and his kind and confine himself to Britain or Holland or whatever.

I mean, that's assuming he's american, and white, and a he... but who is going to be against that here?

I hope most of humanity is next

[l0ungeb0y]

.We are due for a reckoning and frankly if mankind goes extinct, nothing of value will be lost. We live as wasteful parasites on this planet that we rape relentlessly. You have to settle the score sooner or later, it's just how things go. Don't think of me as hateful, just hoping that we can either be humbled, or perish so something better might come later

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Notabadguy]

.We are due for a reckoning and frankly if mankind goes extinct, nothing of value will be lost. We live as wasteful parasites on this planet that we rape relentlessly. You have to settle the score sooner or later, it's just how things go. Don't think of me as hateful, just hoping that we can either be humbled, or perish so something better might come later

I never understood this mindset.

How do you live with yourself? If you're the ultimate parasite that deserved extinction as a wasteful, raping, relentless parasite....and you don't kill yourself, you're immoral.

Don't get me wrong; the world has plenty of immoral people in it...but most of them don't so readily identify themselves as immoral; they think they're justified in what they're doing.

Why haven't followed through with the sentiment of your post?

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you volunteering?

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this where one screams Nooomad?

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

After you.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[ChrisMaple]

nothing of value will be lost.

Of value to whom? In order to reach what goal?

We are human beings, and the proper purpose of all human action is to make things better for humans.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[jwhyche]

No we are not, but you are a idiot. I've tried to take the high road lately but this kind of talk is just imbecile.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

So if that person were to murder everyone and then themselves, that would be moral to you?

Go fuck yourself.

Re: I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why haven't followed through with the sentiment of your post?"
Not same AC, but for those of us who do try to make a small difference in the world by changing our lifestyle, it is depressing to see that progress eroded by others, oftentimes in a position of power, who are clueless or just don't give a fuck

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

No, just themselves. Might have to do it in a state where suicide is legal, so you don't get arrested afterwards!

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Brett Buck]

Classic sociopath.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[iggymanz]

man is the measure, the planet is ours. we don't have to settle any score, we owe no other species anything.

you go ahead and off yourself if you think you're a parasite, nothing of value will be lost. the rest of us can love life, and love mankind.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

You first, cocksucker. Ten stories should do it. Splat, motherfucker!

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

You are wrong. Our only purpose is to reproduce.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like an angsty teenager, but your user id would suggest otherwise.
Humans might not be perfect, but we are the ONLY species that gives a fuck about the survival of other species.
Think about that.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

nothing of value will be lost.

Of value to whom? In order to reach what goal?

We are human beings, and the proper purpose of all human action is to make things better for humans.

Your argument does not hold water even if you are religious, for "God" supposedly put man in charge of all the "creation" [to take care of it].

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

.We are due for a reckoning and frankly if mankind goes extinct, nothing of value will be lost. We live as wasteful parasites on this planet that we rape relentlessly. You have to settle the score sooner or later, it's just how things go. Don't think of me as hateful, just hoping that we can either be humbled, or perish so something better might come later

Whatever value or significance you've assigned to all the other crap growing on this big wet rock, it's all in your head. It's all going to be snuffed out by the Sun, another rock, or something eventually. That's how you play the nothing really matters game.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[omnichad]

A biological imperative is not a purpose.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, try to do it in a way that turns you into a useful fertilizer

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who can't be bothered to grammar properly hasn't taken any hi road.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

No we are not, but you are a idiot. I've tried to take the high road lately but this kind of talk is just imbecile.

I think you wanted "an idiot" instead of "a idiot".

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Provocateur]

Oh. (I know you really are John Wick, posting on /. with a really, really low UID.) John, let us act like civilized me--

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[eaglesrule]

man is the measure, the planet is ours. we don't have to settle any score, we owe no other species anything.

Fools eat their seed corn.

Likewise, biodiversity is a treasure that should not be spent frivolously. We owe it to ourselves and future generations to preserve what cannot be replaced.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[Anonymous Coward]

Biological imperative is all there is. "Purpose" is merely human rationalization.

Re:I hope most of humanity is next

[DamnOregonian]

nothing of value will be lost.

What a ridiculous fucking assertion.
We are raping this place. Ya, we're shitting all over the environment that sustains us. Half of us because we believe the sky fairy wasn't lying when he said that the Earth was unchanging, and that we were its master, and that it'd stay bountiful as long as we kept fucking it and each other. The other half are just greedy parasites.
We don't disagree here.
But nothing of value lost? Get the fuck out of here. You see any other footprints on the moon? We could be, for all we know, the most advanced species in the galaxy, or ever to emerge. We're a deeply flawed animal, but we're also mind blowingly incredible. If you can't see that, you should seek psychiatric help for your depression, or just fucking off yourself.

Or maybe they die of old age?

[Anonymous Coward]

They do realize that trees actually do eventually die of old age right?
Maybe it's climate change, but it's at least as likely that they are just dying off from old age.
Especially if they are all roughly the same age.

Re:Or maybe they die of old age?

[another_twilight]

They do realize that trees actually do eventually die of old age right?

I put it to you that the researchers involved in this study are at least as knowledgeable as you on this topic. That the conclusions you have considered after reading an article based on their research is likely to have occurred to them (it's not especially novel) and the reason it isn't mentioned is that it has been dismissed.

at least as likely

I'd appreciate you sharing the methodology by which you reached that evaluation.

The summary of the original paper is more cautious than the article (linked, above) and calls for more research to prove/disprove the possible link to climate and environmental changes.

Re:Or maybe they die of old age?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I put it to you that the researchers involved in this study are at least as knowledgeable as you on this topic.
Unfounded hypothesis.

> That the conclusions you have considered after reading an article based on their research is likely to have occurred to them (it's not especially novel) and the reason it isn't mentioned is that it has been dismissed.
Speculation.

> I'd appreciate you sharing the methodology by which you reached that evaluation.
An appeal to a standard you do not meet.

> The summary of the original paper is more cautious than the article (linked, above) and calls for more research to prove/disprove the possible link to climate and environmental changes.
So essentially it's an admission that they do not, in fact, know, justifying the original skepticism.

Re:Or maybe they die of old age?

[another_twilight]

Unfounded hypothesis.

Unproven I'll own, but it's not unfounded.

Speculation

True. I'm offering an alternative specualtion to the GPs speculation. In doing so I'm offering what I consider a more likely interpretation than the GP has reached. If you'd like to challenge that assessment, I am interested.

An appeal to a standard you do not meet

Given that I make no evaluation, such as the GPs 'at least as likely', which I took the trouble to quote, I'm not sure what your point is. I'm calling out the GP to explain his assertion. You seem to want me to justify my calling them out.

So essentially it's an admission that they do not, in fact, know, justifying the original skepticism.

I've qualified my criticism of the GP by trying to more accurately report the summary of the researchers. To consider their caution justification for the speculation as to their failure to consider 'old age' is still an overreach and based on ... nothing, except possibly the assumption that the researchers are less knowledgeable or qualified than the GP.

I'm genuinely interested in whether you have a reason or position that supports the 'it's old age' thesis and/or the implication that this has been overlooked by the researchers. My reading suggests that it has been considered, but the timing and numbers led them to suspect that there may be more than this.

Re:Or maybe they die of old age?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the hard yards have not been done. At this stage, they do not know if the trees being studied are a good proxy for the overall population, we don't know how firm the age estimates are, there is no detail on how many tree deaths would have been expected, no statistical analysis, and no mechanisms by which specific local conditions can be the basis of a hypothesis which further research or evidence could test. In addition, the tree lifecycle may be path-dependent, and it's possible that climate change has enabled them to live longer than they would otherwise (and not just prior to today).

"Further evidence is required to support or refute..." is not a strong statement of confidence.

Re:Or maybe they die of old age?

[another_twilight]

"Further evidence is required to support or refute..." is not a strong statement of confidence.

I agree. I think the article that links to the research paper overstates the case for climate being responsible, and doesn't do justice to the caution of the original paper. It's useful and necessary to publish weak, inconclusive or even failed results. And the researchers have. Criticising the lack of a strong conclusion isn't useful. This isn't bad science, it's inconclusive science - and reporting that is useful.

My contention is with armchair commentators who post things like "They do realize that trees actually do eventually die of old age right?"

Not my problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Sucks to be them.

Kendallfaggot denialist on slashdot for years...

[Anonymous Coward]

But we pretend he's actually considering the issue competently, not just being another denialist troll?

Hmm no.

Must be climate change with humans, too.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

In other news: The oldest humans on the planet are dying, or having parts of their bodies fail, MUCH more often than even those a few years younger.

(According to the Social Security administration's Period Life Table for 2015, the probability of death within a year for a person 119 years old is 90%, while at 107 years it's only 50%. Research papers and tables compiled by other insurance operations give similar numbers.)

Baobab tree trunks are not a single stem growing from the roots, but a cluster of them, of varying ages. This looks like a strategy for achieving long life for the overall organism without having to achieve long life for all of its parts: Just grow additional trunk stems. When the older ones get feeble and die off, the younger ones are still there and take over. (Of course sometimes you end up with a lot of old ones, and losing most of them all at once is the end of the show.)

This is not to say that the deaths observed here are NOT caused, in whole or great part, by climate change or some other stress in recent years. But the study seems to be just a recent look, with nothing in the past to compare it to. So while it indicates that, recently, the oldest individuals and oldest chunks of them died off more than the younger instances, it does nothing to distinguish whether this is the normal condition of the trees vs. the result of something recent.

Re:Must be climate change with humans, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

True, it could very well be that the trees, which were already effin' old, were already approaching the end of their lifespans. These things lived for millennia and clearly lived through quite a few climate swings already so they clearly weren't fragile.

Truthiness

[sd4f]

I love it when science doesn't have the answers, but tries to look like it does. The article is a case in point; they don't know what killed the trees, or why they died, but... it was climate change...

Re:Truthiness

[Patent Lover]

It's not the science, it's the article. Two completely different things. This is The Guardian, not the journal Nature.

Re:Truthiness

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the science, it's the article. Two completely different things. This is The Guardian, not the journal Nature.

Did you finish reading the summary?

the researchers "suspect that the demise of monumental baobabs may be associated at least in part with significant modifications of climate conditions that affect southern Africa in particular." Further research is needed, said the team from Romania, South Africa and the United States, "to support or refute this supposition."

It's not science. It's the scientists. No one has to refute the supposition. The null hypothesis is "unknown cause" not "climate change."

Re:Truthiness

[avandesande]

They don't mention obvious stuff like possible local irrigation causing salinity or lowering the water table.

Re:Truthiness

[CaffeinatedBacon]

Local irrigation spread across entire countries...

All were in southern Africa – Zimbabwe, Namibia, South Africa, Botswana, and Zambia

Did you misspell global warming?

Re:Truthiness

[Anonymous Coward]

still it is just 9 (nine) oldest trees

Don't give up on mankind... just yet

[Alwin Henseler]

Maybe you're right, and this planet deserves to get rid of humans. But look at it this way:

In geological / planetary timescales, humans have only been around for the blink of an eye. Yes we're stupid. Careless. Stomping out species wherever we go. Using this planet's resources wasteful. Poisoning its air, soil & waters. And it probably wouldn't hurt the planet's ecosystems if all humans disappeared yesterday.

BUT: we're also learning. Sloooowwwwly, yes, but learning. How to avoid mistakes made in the past. How to make more efficient use of resources. How to curb population growth (again: slooooowwwwly). How to clean up rivers & lakes. And in a few cases, how to revive almost-extinct animal or plant species. Or at least preserve a few living specimens in zoos, gardens and seed banks around the world. Over time, chances are we'll become better stewards of this planet than some of our ancestors were.

Now suppose all humans would disappear in short order. The planet would go through some climate change cycles. Many species would disappear. New species would evolve. And perhaps a few million years from now another 'intelligent' (?) species might evolve. Probably only to make the same mistakes again. Or worse.

So... give us time. Mechanisms are in place to bring humans to a halt should things get out of hand. Like a limit on amount of arable land. Oil running out. Or climate change, turning some population centres into un-liveable areas. One way or another, at some point something will have to give.

When naked survival is at stake, humans can learn quick & become very inventive. If / when we learn, both ourselves and our planet may turn out for the better. And should we spread out over the solar system (or even further out) and take those lessons with us, perhaps not make the same mistakes elsewhere.

So if you care: try and do your bit. Help others do the same. And be patient. We're not done on this planet. And this planet is not done with us. Not yet, anyway... :-)

Re:Don't give up on mankind... just yet

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you're right, and this planet deserves to get rid of humans.

You're both hilarious, anthropomorphizing a planet and guilting yourselves into non-existence. Those two thoughts can't coexist.

Re:FAKE news

[Anonymous Coward]

If only you'd stop posting too.

We all know who to blame

[viperidaenz]

It's the millennials' fault

Re:We all know who to blame

[Daralantan]

Well the article does talk about trees of millennial age!

maybe not climate change

[Anonymous Coward]

it's probably the borer they used for taking age samples was not disinfected properly and so everything became infected

Re:Wow

[gweihir]

You seem to be stupid. How do you think they get to be older on average? By dying more often?

Re:FAKE news

[Anonymous Coward]

on the other hand, they may have fallen victim to aliens. We don't know. Further research will need to be conducted to determine whether to confirm or deny this possibility. Doesn't matter, as long as I get money.

Re:Wow

[NicknameUnavailable]

This isn't even an argument. Baobab trees are extraordinarily common in Africa. Having less than 10 of the oldest ones die over the span of over a decade isn't even close to being statistically significant by any measure beyond saying "things are more likely to die as they get older," well no shit. The only remarkable thing about this is that it is being spun as "omg climate change," that says a lot more about the people pushing "climate change" research than it says about a particular tree (since this same exact thing applies to all known life, if that weren't the obvious point here.)

If they can't handle the heat...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck those trees, they are pussies!

Edit:
CAPTCHA: treefucker

Thank you for proving Tulsa is full of faggots

[Anonymous Coward]

But seriously, kill yourselves en masse, you're dinosaur shit waiting for the asteroid.

Re:Segregation is the answer

[omnichad]

Why don't you go back to your homeland? Where is that, again?

Never waste a good crisis

[Anonymous Coward]

While the cause of the die-off remains unclear (liberal spidy sense kicks in), its climate change

Aluminum from C-H-E-M-T-R-A-I-L-S Killed Them

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, time to look up folks. It's the aluminum from chemtrials killing the trees across the globe, same way you use copper to kill tree roots in pipes and septic systems.

http://www.aboutthesky.com/tree-decline

C H E M T R A I L S Contain Aluminum

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, time to look up folks. It's the aluminum from c h e m t r a i l s ........... killing the trees across the globe, same way you use copper to kill tree roots in pipes and septic systems.

http://www.aboutthesky.com/tree-decline

Re:China sends its love...

[Anonymous Coward]

..and parasites. Because if they have to live in an ecological shithole, so should the rest of the world!

SAD.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense, these things live for thousands of years. They pretty much all died at the same exact time on those timescales. If that happened normally they would never be able to live that long. Use some common sense.

How about a dose of common sense?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but all of them, at the same time, when they usually would still have centuries of life left?

Re:Wow

[bill_mcgonigle]

that it is being spun

The /. editors post "stupid people saying stupid things" stories just to get reacts and ad impressions. Topical comments are what ad farms crave.

Regular ole' pollution?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it too boring to suggest regular ole' pollution from developing African nations, or the Chinese doing who-knows-what in these nations?

Re:Segregation is the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

confine races to their natural habitat and areas of prior evolution.

Alright everyone, out of America, back to where you came from.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

> So they still have newer growth that is not dead, so.... Not even dead yet.

Bring out your dead baobabs! Bring out your baobabs!

who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

this planet is for humans; zoo animals, whales, oversize trees can just get out of the way. Forwards to 10,000,000,000.

Warming? Hardly...

[Anonymous Coward]

These trees are 2000 years old, which means they survived the Medieval Warming period, which was MUCH warmer than our current climate.

If your theory can be disproved by inspection, you need a new theory.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Humans live to about 1/30 of the time these threes live.

So a bunch of trees dying in a decade is about as unlikely as a bunch of humans dying in 1/30 of a decade, or four months.

Ok, maybe there are more humans, so we'd need a bigger bunch, but a LOT of humans die in four months.

Re:Segregation is the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

He also said to confine races to their natural habitats, so that wouldn't work. Those Mexicans would still be returned to Portugal.

"Suddenly"

[kriston]

"Suddenly"

"individuals have died, or at least their oldest parts/stems have collapsed and died, over the past 12 years"

Pick one. It can't be both.

Re:"Suddenly"

[DamonHD]

Why not? Death is not exactly the same for large plants as it is for humans.

And "suddenly" seems entirely justified as a in a very short span relative to their mean age.

Rgds

Damon

When in doubt blame you know what

[Anonymous Coward]

While the cause of the die-off remains unclear, the researchers "suspect that the demise of monumental baobabs may be associated at least in part with significant modifications of climate conditions that affect southern Africa in particular."

When in doubt blame man made climate change. Wouldn't expect anything less that the Progressives at the Guardian.

A Victim of Climate Change?

[Anonymous Coward]

hahahahahahaha

Disingenuous verbiage

[BubbaJonBoy]

How the hell can you say "suddenly" after thousands of years have elapsed?
Suddenly maybe on a geologic scale...

Re:Disingenuous verbiage

[Provocateur]

Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'suddenly' that I wasn't previously aware of.

--- thanks (and apologies) to Douglas Adams

What about the PEOPLE in Africa ?

[micahraleigh]

The people in Africa are being shot and plundered by strongmen (i.e. "governments") from Liberia to Congo and the trees get the headlines?

Don't care. Let the trees go. Save the people.

Water Table

[surfcow]

They are having a genuine water crisis right now in some South African cities.

I recall reading that aggressive farming can suck a water table dry.

Big trees have tap roots that drill down to the water table,
which contains 'fossil water' - old water that does not get replenished
easily or at all.

Climate change? Seriously?!

[fygment]

... end of life maybe? You do know trees don't live forever, right? But hey, "climate change" gets you in the news.

Other spontaneously idiotic possibilities: it was the Russians, Chinese, or North Koreans ... or Trump. So many possibilities.

On the plus side, they WERE NOT CUT DOWN. So yay team humans!