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Russian Shipwreck Allegedly Carrying $130 Billion In Gold Has Been Rediscovered (popularmechanics.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Popular Mechanics: A salvage company has located the remains of a Russian warship lost during the the Russo-Japanese War. The battle-damaged cruiser Dmitrii Donskoi was scuttled off the coast of Korea in 1905, reportedly carrying a cargo of gold worth an estimated $130 billion in today's dollars. An international consortium of companies plans to salvage the gold.
According to the Telegraph, the Donskoi was found less than a mile off the coast of Ulleung island, at a depth of 1,423 feet in the Sea of Japan. A submersible descended to the wreck and captured an image of the ship's name on the stern in the Cyrillic alphabet. The South Korean Shinil Group, which discovered the wreck, plans to recover the gold sometime later this year with help from companies in China, Canada, and the U.K. At the time of her sinking Donskoi was reportedly carrying 5,500 boxes of gold bars and 200 tons of gold coins with a street value today of $130 billion. That's more than twice Russia's 2017 defense budget, which was $61 billion. If the treasure does materialize, the Russian government will receive half of the recovered amount. The money that's not going to Russia will reportedly be invested in a railroad line linking North Korea, South Korea, and Russia. A small percentage (10%) will also be invested in tourism projects on Ulleungdo Island, including a museum dedicated to the vessel.
According to the Telegraph, the Donskoi was found less than a mile off the coast of Ulleung island, at a depth of 1,423 feet in the Sea of Japan. A submersible descended to the wreck and captured an image of the ship's name on the stern in the Cyrillic alphabet. The South Korean Shinil Group, which discovered the wreck, plans to recover the gold sometime later this year with help from companies in China, Canada, and the U.K. At the time of her sinking Donskoi was reportedly carrying 5,500 boxes of gold bars and 200 tons of gold coins with a street value today of $130 billion. That's more than twice Russia's 2017 defense budget, which was $61 billion. If the treasure does materialize, the Russian government will receive half of the recovered amount. The money that's not going to Russia will reportedly be invested in a railroad line linking North Korea, South Korea, and Russia. A small percentage (10%) will also be invested in tourism projects on Ulleungdo Island, including a museum dedicated to the vessel.
I bet $13 billion buys you one hell of a museum.
Wonder how many dudes on that ship grabbed a crate or a few bars or whatever before abandoning ship. There will still be a fuckton of gold, but I bet not all of it.
good job to whoever spent a shitload of money looking for this and eventually succeeded
But did you find the gold?
Why send a ship into battle carrying so much gold?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
If the gold does exist and is recovered, what will so much gold coming onto the market do to the price of gold?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Typical cargo tonnage of a warship around 1900 is in excess of thousands of metric tons.
The current value of gold is approximately $39969 per kilogram.
$130e+9 (130 billion) / $39969 = ~3252520.7
3252520.7 kilograms / 1000 kilograms (metric ton) = ~3252.52 ton.
It is entirely possible that a ship of the era could carry 3k ton of gold without being fully loaded.
Right. It totally makes sense to load a warship with 3,000 tons of gold and send it into battle. And then scuttle it when it gets damaged. Thanks for the math.
The value of 200 tons of gold is about $13 billion not $130 billion, still a metric shitload of money.
If the ship was actually carrying that much gold, it would have been discovered years ago. I'm pretty sure Russia would like to have it back and would have started searching in 1905. And from TFA: 'Although the Shinil Group claims it saw what it thinks was a “treasure box” among the wreckage, there appears to be no confirmation the Donskoi really was carrying the reported treasure'
Why would aliens be interested in gold? It's extremely heavy and probably not common enough to be useful. More likely than not, they'd just strip mine uninhabited planets which are probably closer to them than we are. Or, perhaps just make it out of lead which is probably more sensible than expending the necessary amount of resources to come over here and take ours.
Russia has to pay in full for its all its energy use to get from Russia to Japan. A lot of nations on the way would not sell the needed supplies. Russia had to think about having an accepted method to pay along the way.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
They have among the most outrageous ad policies. You can't browse their site with an ad blocker, at all.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
The "battle" was far, far away from Russian and the location of the Russian fleet. The many ships Russian sent to would need to buy what they needed on the way.
The "war" did not work out the way Russian planed for and it had many reasons to "scuttle".
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
yep, given the ship was basically left behind by the fleet and scuttled I would seriously doubt the gold exists. No way they would have left them behind in such a situation, nor are they likely to have put everything in one ship like that, especially a warship that would be targeted by the enemy.
Good point. They might have needed 5,500 boxes of gold and 200 tons of gold coins to buy some coal to fuel the ships. They should have taken a credit card instead or used Paypal.
That makes sense. It definitely makes sense to take all that gold along in case you need to buy something. You never know what the price of sushi might be on the way to Japan for instance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The reason why so much coal was needed, the reason why the distances got longer.
"with difficulty obtaining coal for refuelling – as the warships could not legally enter the ports of neutral nations"
"The Russians needed 500,000 short tons (450,000 t) of coal and 30 to 40 re-coaling sessions to reach Cam Ranh Bay."
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Good point. You would need 5,500 boxes of gold and 200 tons of gold coins to pay for all of that coal.
What I don't see is why Russia would let others keep half?
I mean, for one billion they could send navy ships there and say "no" and then what?
The CEO of Amazon is worth several times the defense budget of Russia, a global military super power.
It was not just coal from any port along the way. Coal was not getting provided to Russian in any way, for any reason at all the easy to use ports.
That left the few nations able to support the Russian fleet with a way to "set" the price.
Russian could not wait and look for a better price. Russian needed a lot of coal. Russia had to pay.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
The Russian Government is very generous.
Thatâ(TM)s more than twice Russiaâ(TM)s 2017 defense budget, which was $61 billion. If the treasure does materialize, the Russian government will GRAB ALL of the recovered amount.
Good thing they had 5,500 boxes of gold and 200 tons of gold coins to pay for 500,000 tons of coal. If they had ordered it from Amazon they would have been able to get a better deal though, with free shipping.
It's in Japanese waters.
We kind of have a military base or two nearby.
totally on it :)
[($)]
Who said anything about intentionally sending a cargo ship to battle? Attacking cargo vessels known to carry valuable cargo (gold, fuel, rations, industrial supplies, ammunition) is a mainstay of warfare at sea and elsewhere.
Not to mention attempting to destroy the escorts and capture said cargo vessels... which would require the crew to scuttle the ship if it were exceptionally valuable to the enemy.
Perhaps you might learn something if you were to bother to research the source of the cargo, its escort, the type and number of the attacking force and the ship's intended destination before commenting.
However likely you think the cargo may be; I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.
Should have been enough to buy a couple of countries on their way from SpB to Japan...
It wasn't a cargo ship. According to these people it was carrying about 4700 tons of gold. 4700 tons of gold. In 1905. How much mined gold do you think existed on the planet in 1905? Apparently a lot of it was on this ship.
I called it first. Its mine.
Re 'What I don't see is why Russia would let others keep half?"
To not be Spain. Better to get something on good terms than go full Spain in a court over a transfer of the treasure.
Any salvage company, other nations will then be happy to work with Russian on any new project in the future.
Should Russian need something around the other side of the world in the future a skilled salvage company will remember events like this.
A salvage company will contrast that with what Spain can do.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
The only reason it was reported to be carrying that much gold is for reporting to the insurance company. The actual amount is 1â (1/1000) of what is believed to be on the ship. Not worth the salvage for Russia but 50% is still free money.
The ship contained cargo. Ergo it was a cargo ship.
You didnâ(TM)t watch âoeBattlefield Earthâ did you?
You think any insurance company would have been able to insure 3 metric tons of gold ? I doubt it. Itâ(TM)s a lot even by todayâ(TM)s standards.
How much does the 'salvage company' get if Russia receives 50%, tourism 10% and "money that's not going to Russia will reportedly be invested in a railroad line"?
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You do realize how much 4 tons of gold is ? Itâ(TM)s huge. The US federal reserve is currently double that amount - and that is currently the biggest gold reserve in the world. Mind you, gold is immune to inflation, so the same amount of gold would buy you the same quantity of coal today as in 1900 (probably even cheaper because coal was more abundant then).
far far away from Russia? you mean really really close to Russia, perhaps you might want to look at a map some time. hint Vladivostok was a major port.
it wasn't a cargo ship, it wasn't travelling between ports. It was on patrol with the fleet and was damaged in the initial battle and then left the fleet to head back to port in Vladivostok which isn't far. It really makes no sense whatsoever to have that much gold on a patrolling warship.
Yeah, but Russia has the pee tape, so who do you think is gonna stop them from collecting their gold?
You are welcome on my lawn.
Gold is not immune to inflation. The price of gold has been going down under inflationary pressure lately. Gold, silver and platinum have been dipping since the GOP tax cut bill went into effect. And judging by the volatility, nobody's looking to start buying any time soon.
Gold is basically 19th century Bitcoin.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Why does Russia get anything? It's not even the same country that lost the gold. The USSR was between then, and if Russia does get the gold, were any former soviet republics also part of the old Russia, and therefore should also get some.
Why would a single warship be carrying that much gold?
I don't know, maybe to deny the enemy its use in the event of invasion, or to pay someone for materiel? The UK moved huge amounts of gold and other valuables to Canada in warships during World War 2, e.g. Operation Fish. None were sunk but if attacked would have fought.
Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
What I don't see is why Russia would let others keep half?
I mean, for one billion they could send navy ships there and say "no" and then what?
I think it may have something to do with international waters and salvage rights. It may also be an act of diplomacy on the part of the Koreans if the ship was in their waters. Despite having full salvage rights this way they still get a pay day and not piss Russia off, plus a railway, plus a way to ease relations with the other half of their country.
Sounds to me like a win for everyone - good on them.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Based upon this graph from Wikipedia you can see purported worldwide gold production was approximately 500 tons per year by 1905. In order to accumulate 5000 tons it would require at least ten years... while the accumulation of gold has been ongoing for thousands of years.
Unfortunately estimates of worldwide total gold vary and accurate information is simply nonexistent. That however does not lend any remote credibility to your hypothesis that it is unlikely for Russia to have the capability to accumulate such an amount of gold by the year 1905.
Information about the ship makes it seem unlikely it had a cargo capacity in excess of 2kton with room left for fuel. Most likely there is an order-of-magnitude error somewhere in the reporting. 200 ton of gold seems far more realistic where (13e+9 / 39969) / 1000 = ~325.252 ton, (7.9938e+9 / 39969) / 1000 = 200 ton. The numbers provided in available reports and data do not add up. That said this is pure speculation and pointless without verifiable sources of information.
By the way the amount of gold that existed on the planet in 1905 was slightly more than exists now.
We've sent a bit to Mars and other planets in the solar system and a bit is even further headed out toward what we expect is the Oort cloud.
Insert head bureaucrat: "You are technically correct; the best kind of correct."
I'm not 100% certain but I believe we've also converted a bit via fission into heavier elements. Whether you'd consider that to still exist as gold or not is another question.
No. It was a warship. Warships are designed and built to be warships. Warships sometimes carry cargo, gold was sometimes used in the payment of debts between nations. Warships were used for the security of the shipment. Gold would also be regularly carried to buy goods or services in foreign ports. It might also be used for fleet payroll in foreign ports.
Back in this era there was a devastating earthquake in Italy. The US sent gold to Italy for disaster relief and other humanitarian efforts. Guess how it was shipped, using a warship.
Cargo ships are designed and built to carry cargo. In times of war they may mount a gun on them for self defense but that does not make them warships. Just as cargo does not make a warship a cargo ship.
So much gold can buy a lot of weapons for your army, or an ally/soldiers for hire. Nobody would supply Russia in 1917, unless they put money on the table first. And gold, because their currency was not worth much. They apparently had gold though.
the amount suggested here is something like 10% of the entire mined amount of gold in the world at the time, it would have been enough to buy many of the countries and remembering this battle was very close to Russian territory so their was no possible reason to have the entire nations gold floating around in enemy territory. you are basically suggesting that Russia would have put their entire countries gold in a single warship and then sent it out to patrol with the fleet and then when damaged sent it back to the closest port unescorted.
> Why does Russia get anything?
Because anybody trying to fetch that gold w/o russian permit would get torpedoed or nuked. Being a military superpower means you cannot be ignored, even if the state finances and the economy are weak.
perhaps if you bothered to research you might learn something. The ship wasn't being escorted, it WAS the escort on a patrol, it really makes little to no sense at all for them to be patrolling with what would probably be the entire countries gold supplies onboard and then even less sense for that ship to then leave the fleet unescorted to head back to port. Every piece of information about its travels and what it was doing makes it highly unlikely that it was carrying any sort of cargo let alone an entire countries gold supply. but we will know soon enough, I suspect they will find very little on the boat but happy to be proven wrong.
What does maritime law say about ownership? The ship was lost in a war with Japan (scuttled after a fight with Japanese ships) in Korean waters. Korea was at the time an independent country and the wreck is today off a South Korean island.
Is it clear that Russia retains ownership?
He said far far away from Russian. He left out the actual thing. A Russian hat, perhaps?
Or perhaps he meant a Russian. Pretty unlikely, I'd expect there to be at least one in the crew.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
This. The only parallel I can think of from my personal experience is playing Eve online (I know, a keyboard warrior playing an internet spaceship game is not really comparable to actually risking lives in wartime etc) . Heading out on patrol where you may well be in combat with unneccesary valuables in cargo in any kind of vessel (warship OR cargo/supply ship) is quite frankly an insane practice. There's some cliche about never risking anything in battle that you can't afford to lose.
Probably. The yanks who voted him in are morons, after all.
But religion and guns and stuff! Wooo. Yee haw.
I'm unclear as to why anyone in the Russian admiralty would have loaded tons of gold onto a second-rate warship sailing straight into a battle? And where was it supposed to be carrying the gold *to*?
HMS Edinburgh. Sunk 1942. 4.5 tons of Gold.
There must be an in-soviet-russie joke somewhere.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Why on earth would a cruiser knowing it's going to go into a battle be carrying a metric shit ton of gold?
The island is reportedly getting a 'small percentage' worth $13 billion. Any thoughts on how I may get residency there?
It was travellelling from Latvia (then part of russia) to Vladivostok (Russian coast nearest Japan). Completely different ends of russia. At that time sending money by sending gold does make sense as it predates modern banking. If you were sending gold that far by sea during wartime wouldn't you want to protect it in a warship? As for scuttling it you certainly wouldn't want your enemy capturing that amount of gold - that would double the harm to your side as you'd be losing the gold either way.
$13 billion is a lot of money!
Math is hard, 0.1% of 1200$ is 1$, not 10$.
Good point. You would need 5,500 boxes of gold and 200 tons of gold coins to pay for all of that coal.
Obviously the coal sellers were using surge pricing :-)
WTF? it was just a couple of days out of Vladivostok and it had literally just left the fleet to sail back there after sustaining some minor damage in a battle. Perhaps as someone else suggested you might want to check a map and read some history of the fleets movements around that time.
NATO should blow up those salvage ships to keep the gold at the bottom of the ocean.
No reason to make a multi-billion dollar present to Putin and his murdering army of thugs in Syria and Ukraine.
The pack of lies known as Wikipedia says the displacement of the ship was roughly 5600 tons. It doesn't seem possible it could carry roughly 3500 tons of gold. Where did they put the coal to fuel the engines? What about the guns?
and by comparison the amount sent to Canada in multiple ships with battleships as escorts is less than 1% of what is being claimed by people here that the Russians had on board a single ship that was unprotected that was actively involved in escort duties. sound plausible to you?
So, when they don't use this 'pee tape' for billions and billions in gold, are you going to stop using the purported existence of said 'tape' to troll this forum?
Who am I kidding?!?
The only ultimate 'losers' are a bunch of US servicemen who will eventually lose their 'gravy deployment' to South Korea to continue the US occuption, after improved relations lead to Korean unification. There's always Germany, I suppose, though things are changing there as well.
You're correct PopeRatzo, not only did a bunch of fools spend their lives hunting gold, there were at least three banking panics related to issues with Gold.
'Far away from the Russian Dressing on the salad bar' should be sufficient to tone down the TDS hysteria.
Who am I kidding; everyone knows our vital bodily fluids are at stake!
The best way to steal a bunch of gold and get away with it is to make everyone think it was sunk.
Now we'll have a new mystery to solve.
Until someone finds a way to make gold from, say, sea water, gold is one of the rare thing that represents a tangible value - it has its highs and lows but it survives wars and economic crisis.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
It's more likely that you'll die chained to a wall in one of the secret dungeons being constructed at taxpayer expense at Mar-a-Lago. Don't worry, you be in excellent company with Steven Colbert, John Stewart, and Bobby DeNiro. I hear Dick Cheney will be in charge of "enhanced interrogation"...
In 1905 the annual world production of gold was around 500 tonnes.
In 2006 there was 158,000 tonnes of gold above ground, and we're pulling about 3000 tonnes a year at the moment.
Let's say from 1900 through 1970 we averaged 1000 tonnes a year mined (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Gold_Production_1900-2014.png) and 2200ish tonnes a year for the next 40 years.
While gold is recycled, so yearly consumption can happily exceed yearly production, in that 110 years we've pulled 180,000ish tonnes out of the ground. So yeah, it does appear that a decent percentage of the world's above ground gold in 1905 was on that ship if it did have 4700 tonnes of gold on it.
In Soviet Russia they'll fry your nipples and send you to the gulag?
*rimshot*
There will be no shortage of postings for US troops as long as Putin continues threatening and invading his neighbors.
A cubic metre of gold is 19.3 tonnes, so 200 tonnes of gold coins is only ten 1000 litre boxes of gold coins. That's physically not very large.
So, when they don't use this 'pee tape' for billions and billions in gold
i mean, if it exists and is effective then it is worth a lot more than that.
Getting the US to leave NATO removes the equivalence of 580 billion/year from NATO defenses.
That is only one of the benefits they get from Trump.
Also, whatever they have on Trump is a bit more incriminating than just a couple of hookers peeing on a bed.
The Stormy Daniels thing is on the same level and Trump survived that ordeal.
If there is a tape it at least involves Trump penetrating pre-teens, otherwise it wouldn't be much to hold over his head.
"D'ye think we have enough gold on board, cap'n? It's not only the coal but the men'll be wanting three meals a day and what if we need to buy more shells for the guns or a new rudder?"
Typically, the salvage award is approximately 10-25% of the total value of property that the salvor recovers. However, in certain circumstances the percentage of the value awarded to the salvor may be as high as 50% of the total value of property recovered.
Sounds like the reward is based on effort and safety. Seeing that it's going to turn into a multinational effort, my guess is it's a large mix of the two. I assume this is the reason why the reward is so high.
When I saw this story about a Russian ship loaded with $130 million in gold my first thought was: "They've found Putin's lifeboat".
I'm curious as to why you believe this claim. Is it simply because it paints someone you don't like in a negative way?
Exactly. If the gold did exist and it was on the ship then it's a safe bet that it wasn't on the ship when it was scuttled. Maybe it was a cunning plan to distribute the gold among fleet officers. They report back that the ship was lost and unrecoverable and go on to quietly enjoy their windfall.
Now a century later the wreck has been discovered. Lots of people jump in with a claim on the gold and when none is found, who do they blame?
If that much gold were released into the market, surely the price/weight would decrease, right?
I'm in tears... Mostly because I got hot grits in my eyes.
Maybe they're waiting for the Russian shipwreck full of platinum?
Because of risk. Salvagers were looking for the ship because it was reported to be carrying a large sum of gold. It may have been. it may have been carrying a lesser sum of gold. It may not have been carrying any gold. The salvagers have only found the wreck of the warship, and by maritime law, couldn't act on it without Russia's permission. Additionally, because of the reported gold on board it's highly probable that the individuals who located the wreck did not give Russia the location of the wreck but just provided evidence that they had found it.
The only improvement to Russia's situation with regard to the ship is that they would know the wreck is intact. They still wouldn't know how much gold is on it or where the ship is located. Russia would need to fund expeditions to locate the wreck and the fund the salvage operation. This would all be done under the assumption of a payout worth $130bn. Russia did the right move. They get half the recovered salvage to a tune $65bn without having to pay anything and if the gold doesn't materialize or the take is considerably less than 130bn then Russia still comes out ahead.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
I said "mined gold" not gold. So I am both semantically and correct correct.
It's pretty straightforward to make gold from sea water. According to Nature, it currently costs about 5x the market value of the gold. On the other hand, you could likely get a bunch of other valuable things at the same time, so that might bring costs down a bit.
Gold's value is it's rarity. It has a bit of intrinsic value for certain industrial uses, but mostly it's because it's shiny.
Even though coal is a prime item it's marked as a 4-5 day delivery :(
And the wiki page claims: "In another Operation Fish convoy on 5 July 1940 five ships loaded with $1.7 billion (US$ 29.70 billion in 2018), the largest movement of wealth in history." So a convoy of ships moving $30 billion is the "largest movement of wealth in history" but the Russians load more than four times that amount onto a random coaler headed into a war zone? Just doesn't seem plausible.
Enigma
Dude, it was a war. They stole the gold. That's why it's on a warship.
Trump Derangement Syndrome strikes again!
Not only its rarity, its properties also.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
Dat projection tho.
FYI, Dick Cheney is on YOUR side, not Trump's. Though he hasn't really commented much in public as he is at least smart enough to know that he is toxic waste, the Bushes, McCain, and all the other crazy old cuckservatives are all NeverTrumpers. Just like you. And they want moar war in the Middle East and with Russia, just like you.
What's it like to have literally been "Duck Season, Wabbit Seasoned"?
But what about one that only displaces 6,000 tons?? And is presumably a long way from home so is having to take on large loads of coal, food, water etc. when it does stop in port as well as lugging ammunition for it's guns? You may well be correct, I know nothing on the subject, but it seems a lot of extra weight over and above what would be needed just to keep a warship sailing and fighting far from home..
Re 'What I don't see is why Russia would let others keep half?"
To not be Spain. Better to get something on good terms than go full Spain in a court over a transfer of the treasure.
Any salvage company, other nations will then be happy to work with Russian on any new project in the future.
Should Russian need something around the other side of the world in the future a skilled salvage company will remember events like this.
No. That is definitely not the reason. You are making the classic mistake of applying western reasoning to a government that does not view the world in those terms. I can assure you that Putin and his government have no real long term vision beyond maybe a couple of years, so that's definitely not it.
Much more likely reasons are:
1) Russia knows the odds are really good that the gold isn't there any more (it may have been secretly salvaged by somebody a long time ago) or maybe never was, so they don't want to waste time looking for nothing. But appearing to cooperate allows them to get great positive publicity at what might be literally zero cost to them.
2) The gold exists and they have decided that the railroad project offers them so much benefit that their real motivation is to get the railroad project done at little or not real cost to them. Shipping goods from South Korea via railroad into Russia instead of by ship might be useful to Russia.
Hillary please run again.
Other than shininess, those properties are the "certain industrial uses." But industrial use doesn't drive the price of gold currently. If people got tired of the shiny, then the price would fall to a level that was driven by actual intrinsic value.
Diamond is a good example of this, because you can't just melt down small crappy diamonds to make big nice ones. Industrial diamonds are pretty cheap, while big gem quality diamonds are orders of magnitude more expensive.
Russia is somewhat larger than the UK. If they wanted to stop invaders from getting something simply moving it to the other end of the country would be more than adequate.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Gold to be converted into fuel to power their starships. Duh!
Not if they're the Cybermen from Doctor Who; they're allergic to it.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Other than shininess
resistance to oxidation
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Typical cargo tonnage of most warships at any point in history is close to bugger all. You cram every inch that isn't guns or engines with ammo and fuel. Fortunately half the crew are working at any given time because there isn't room for them all to even sit down at once, let alone sleep.
According to TFA this here Donuts Donaldski was a cruiser. Given that WW2 cruisers were typically under 10,000 tons the thing probably weighed half that *in total*.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yeah, and imagine if there was a tape of Trump being the second gunman on the grassy knoll!
Captcha: delusion
if true!
To get an idea of just how big a pile of BS this story is, the Donskoi was a pre-dreadnaught armoured cruiser, with one tenth the displacement of an actual battleship (Iowa class), and less than a modern (Arleigh Burke) destroyer. The amount of gold in Fort Knox is about the same order of magnitude as what's claimed in the story (depending on how much you believe is in there and what it's currently worth per ounce and what the story is actually claming was on the Donskoi, handwaving a bit here to avoid a huge long debate and calling it "same order of magnitude").
So we have to believe that Imperial Russia loaded a Fort Knox' worth of gold that they didn't have into a (modern) destroyer-class ship, equipped it with early Tardis technology to handle the volume and mass involved, and sent it to the other side of the world, only to scuttle it when Japanese ships came near.
Someone's running a significant salvage scam here...
brainwashed!!
Let's see "Russian" gold discovered.... railway connecting an advanced economy through 2 sanctioned countries.....
Smells like money laundering, looks like money laundering...
Usually insurance doesnt apply in wartime or war events
*Actually, we can't, as it was sold to the Chinese.
Have gnu, will travel.
Spraypaint's not for "recreational use," dude.
That's like saying if the Earth was made of cheese, then the price of food would fall to a level that was driven by actual intrinsic value.
A multi-millenia track record indicates that people aren't going to get tired of the shiny. Jewelry value isn't going to go away and leave only "industrial use" value.
I can assure you that Putin and his government have no real long term vision beyond maybe a couple of years, so that's definitely not it.
I disagree with this assessment. I argue that countries like China, Russia, and North Korea tend to look more long term then our representatives, who seem to only care about the time between now and the next election cycle. Here in the U.S. we do have the Supreme Court Justices who I believe do consider the long term ramifications but you're selling these other countries short to assume they only care about the short term.
If you have not seen it, I recommend watching "Rules for Rulers" by CGPGray. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
It's based on a book, "The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics" https://www.amazon.com/Dictato...
These have helped me not get so angry at politics in general and has given me a much better understanding as to why different leaders do what they do.
Nah, jewelry cleaners are pretty inexpensive. I think the owners of expensive jewelry actually enjoy cleaning it from time to time anyway.
I don't recall saying that it would. The operative word in my sentence, which you quoted, is *if*.
However, the fact that the value of gold is extrinsic does mean that it might not respond to supply and demand as might be expected. If some space mining company dropped a megaton of gold on the market the value would drop, but gold's rarity would also be severely reduced. Everyone could walk around wearing as much gold as they wanted. The price might fall more than otherwise expected due to the loss of cachet. Again, diamonds are a good example (except in reverse) where DeBeers specifically limited the supply of gem quality diamonds in order to keep the value very high, while at the same time providing an unrestricted supply of industrial diamond.
Also note that a "multi-millenia track record" doesn't mean much in the face of new technology or supplies. Glass was once extremely highly valued (for jewelry). Once we figured out how to make it nobody valued it very much for it's shiny decorative properties. Likewise, aluminum was far more valuable than gold and used for jewelry, but now that we can make as much as we want nobody wears it much.
Whatever the outcome of this ship salvage, I really hope that railway project gets built. The one peaceful way to demolish North Korea and unify the peninsula would be wide-open free trade. Once the NK common folk see what they have been missing all these years, North Korea will dissolve faster than East Germany.
Also note that a "multi-millenia track record" doesn't mean much in the face of new technology or supplies.
And my point was that "assume a spherical cow" is a terrible argument when discussing behavioral economics. Adding more spherical cows does not improve it.
The aliens agreed not to return until all people were of one race. Some people took that to mean that they are waiting on one race to conquer the others (Germans, Zionists, etc) but they are really waiting until we have all interbred to the point where no geographically distinguishing features exist. It is going to be a while.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
No. No. No. If we need to get through your country with our oil you can count yourself fucked as well.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
And then the salvage specialists say "Fuck you" and sail away and the treasure stays on the bottom.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Other than shininess
resistance to oxidation
That's another way to say "shininess". ;-)
Why would a single warship be carrying that much gold?
The "gold" is actually just a cover story.
Dirk Pitt and Al Giordino are actually looking for the secret stash of byzanium that is rumoured to be on board.
The good thing about people that manage to get themselves into power for life is that they have to think longer term. The problem, of course, is that they think long term about THEIR own interest rather than their nations in a lot of cases. The way for more democratic countries where the are limited terms is to give people a bonus (something big, millions of dollars level) that they (or their descendents) can cash a couple decades after the term finishes.
And clearly the lack of a railway is what's preventing that. They like totally want to do a customs union and all that, but it just can't possibly work with roads & trucks.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
If an oil tanker has a sack of letters on it does that make it a mail boat?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Spherical cows and cheese... maybe you have some local diary product brand with gold in the name? I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
It is mono-atomic and uncorruptable. Most likely the aliens just convert it to powder and eat it.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Se...
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
According to standard media protocol in regard to politicians they would never run such a story. The consensus is to avoid personal stories about politicians. For example, if they discovered that a politician had a drug/alcohol problem they would not report on it...especially if they were in a treatment program. I was surprised to learn about this long ago.
I can see a Gawker type running with it though none of the other major outlets would back them with a follow up.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Look at it another way. HMS Dreadnought was launched soon after and was the biggest baddest battleship in the world at that point. Normal load, 18,120 tons, 20,730 long tons at deep load giving 2,610 to play with.
I can't find a definition of normal load but let's assume it includes optional little luxuries like fuel, booze, crew, ammunition and more booze. You'd still need two of the buggers to carry that much.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Dude...I'm about to take out a loan and jet there myself...what do you mean: "don't want to waste time." It is over 1400 ft deep. Not a trivial recovery. Lots of professionals and equipment required and people could still die.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Great...I can see you have a handle on the US point of view...now carefully turn your gaze and consider the other.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Given that the Soviets expropriated foreign owned property, rejected the claims of bond holders against the Imperial Russian government, and can be argued to owe the victims of their invasions in Eastern Europe billions, one can hope that it will be tied up in court indefinitely. Sadly I suspect this won't happen.
No, thatâ(TM)s the conversation rate of gold relative to other currencies. The purchasing power of gold is remarkably stable. An ounce of gold will buy you the same value of goods and services as it did 100 years ago, regardless of how those prices are represented in other currencies.
I just tested your hypothesis and tried to buy a MacBook Pro with gold bars. They laughed me out of the Apple Store.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Are you suggesting Donald Trump should be in treatment for his pee problem?
I'm not really sure what "media protocol" has to do with a foreign government having compromising dirt on a US president for the purpose of blackmail.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Is this the ship full of gold from the movie Black Sea, or the one from the book Cryptonomicon?
Um...I call bull shit on Wikipedia. Hell, the money Apple moves around is more than that. Maybe as far as gold is concerned....
Creimer affiliate links. Mod down.
Russia is the successor state to the Soviet Union, and the ship being a naval vessel rather than a private merchant ship continues to belong to them even after it is sunk. These are both well-established concepts in international law (and also the basis for the Spanish case relating to that galleon).
It could if only [takes off shoes & socks] 2100 tons of the ship was iron & steel.
This would also explain why it sank.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Actually it's probably be easier to make gold out of technitium, with maybe a pinch of hydrogen just to round out the flavour.
Do you prefer Cherry or Watermelon flavor for your Hatorade?
you are applying western reasoning and indoctrination. Sadly countries like Russia and China actually think far more towards the future unlike our own governments. They are happy to make sacrifices now for the benefits they will reap in the future.
Who did?
Ken
Dude...I'm about to take out a loan and jet there myself...what do you mean: "don't want to waste time." It is over 1400 ft deep. Not a trivial recovery. Lots of professionals and equipment required and people could still die.
If you're a US citizen, you might not be able to keep it once you've done the difficult, dangerous, and potentially deadly work required to find and recover the treasure. Go read up on the Odyssey Marine Exploration / Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes case.
In a free country, one has a right to expect to keep the lion's share of any lost treasure one finds - and as all rights one can reasonable expect to have in a free country are fundamental rights, this right is protected under the 9th Amendment as one of the rights "retained by" the people, and also protected under the 10th Amendment as a right "reserved to" the people.
No treaty can take away such a right, by definition, or there would be no rights retained by or reserved to the people - a contradiction and hence unethical practice of law.
This right is not only a fundamental right in it's own regard, it's also an implication of the right of ethical government. Few things stress government integrity more than the opportunity to take a large sum of money away from one party and give it to another. Even the appearance that government is doing this must be avoided under the right to ethical government.
Hence, the legal professionals hired by Spain, the federal judges involved, and the police officers involved in the Odyssey Marine Exploration case were all engaging in illegal actions that violated the Bill of Rights. Those people violated their oaths to uphold the law - and the Constitutional requirement of 'good behaviour' and gave away the results of somebody else's hard (and dangerous) work, destroying the results of years of labour.
The Nuremberg Precedent comes into US law under the 9th Amendment - it doesn't matter what one's superior's in the government say (including more senior judges), people are supposed to do the right thing. That didn't happen. Even just bringing this case to court was a violation of fundamental rights, such as the right to ethical practice of law - by creating an artificial demand for the services of legal professionals in a situation where there should have been no such demand.
This case was theft, plain and simple.
The conduct of the government officials and the plaintiff's lawyers involved in this case was a violation of fundamental rights "under the colour of law" - and hence not just a violation of their oaths, but also criminal conduct under long-standing federal law.
But that sort of criminal conduct by government officials and the legal profession has become very common, and it almost never results in the good guys winning. The corruption is just too deeply entrenched, and there are too many special interest groups (not the least of which being the US legal profession, which is terrified the public might remember it has 9th and 10th Amendment rights and so seldom argues them).
Land of the Free? Hardly. You're clearly free to be corrupt or to violate your oaths, if you are a government official - but that's not the freedom most people have in mind when they think of that phrase. In one form of another, this sort of contempt for fundamental rights is an everyday occurrence. The US legal profession is mostly unethical, the US political system is mostly corrupt. Time for America to wake up, or eventually things will come to breaking point where a reboot will be required.
Putin will be killed by Real Russians soon.
They don't look long term but by your reasoning, look long term. Yes. Very good. Carry on.