Slashdot Mirror
Venezuelan President Survives Drone Assassination Attempt (cnn.com)
The Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro, has survived an apparent assassination attempt involving drones that exploded close to him while he was speaking at an event in Caracas. State television showed Maduro abruptly cutting short his speech during a celebration of the National Guard's 81st anniversary. From a report: In a tweet, the president of Venezuela's National Assembly, Diosdado Cabello, called the incident at the military parade a "terrorist attack against the president and the high military command blaming the opposition for the violence." Venezuela's international government broadcaster, TeleSUR, said on Twitter that the Venezuelan government confirmed an attempted attack on Maduro. Venezuela's vice president for communications, Jorge Rodriguez, later addressed the nation on live TV at the request of Maduro. He said people heard explosions that corresponded to drones and heard drones detonate near a parade for the occasion.
If it was an actual assassination attempt against the Venezuelan President is dubious, given there were at least two explosions and he was healthy enough to appear on live TV a couple hours later. How far away the explosions were from him was only vaguely referenced, but apparently was close enough to the parade that he thought they were fireworks. He was on a stage, which was presumably to the side of the parade's path. A few people supposedly responsible were arrested, so it's not like an anonymous attacker was controlling the drones (or they were, but a convenient patsy was arrested). That said, no evidence was given that drones were involved.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
I'll wager dollars to doughnuts that this is a hoax, staged to make Maduro into a sympathetic figure. The rate of inflation is approaching a million percent a year; they've just lopped five zeroes off the value of the currency. The Venezuelan people are fleeing across the border as fast as they can.
Anybody who could afford a drone has already left, and the first world nations don't care enough about South America to bother to assassinate him. Therefore: Probable hoax. He'll use this as a pretext to consolidate power and steal all the rest of the money.
>"The rate of inflation is approaching a million percent a year; they've just lopped five zeroes off the value of the currency. The Venezuelan people are fleeing across the border as fast as they can."
That utpoic Socialism conversion isn't working out so great for them. But one more central-planning initiative is sure to fix it...
Venezuelaian fire departments are saying it was a gas explosion in an apartment.
Iâ(TM)m going to wait for more data.
Note 7 being used as tv camera.
"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina..." - Bernie Sanders
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
The drone in this case could have been a consumer-level device carrying an IED. There's no indication that it was a multi-million dollar Reaper or similar 'first-world' aircraft.
Considering he didn't offer any evidence of the attempt, I think you're correct this is a hoax.
It's funny how people just associate socialism and communism to any government not working out.
They are a democratic presidential republic like the US.... a failed one you can say that fell into dictatorship.... but that doesn't make them commies....
Democracies are not unfailable.... look at the US at the moment... look awefully close.... but I'm sure US will elect someone saner and things will be back to normal after the next election given the deeply ingrained democratic culture and education. That said if a few more populist elections happen .... US could go the way of Argentina...
in Venezuela and so I'm sure there's plenty of people with the means to carry out a hit. Also, a cheap drone and substandard security procedures could make anyone a target.
And if we're going to engage in conspiracy theories I wouldn't put it past the American CIA to arrange a hit. We've been attacking them economically for some time now (yeah, yeah, authoritarian regime and all that, talk to me about it when we stop doing business with the Chinese and the Saudis) so an overt attack wouldn't be out of character. Lord knows we do that sort of crap all the time.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
His point was that 3 "Banana Republics" had more equally distributed wealth than what is ostensibly the Greatest Nation on Earth. He was right to point that out, but like all popular politicians fighting against the American oligarchy he's got to be careful how he says things least people take quotes out of context to smear him.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
This is what is called a tipping point, prior to this no exploding assassination drones, after this, oh yeah, nearly everyone can play the exploding assassination drone game. Only Cunts Idiots and Arseholes are stupid enough to trigger this kind of idiotic game, good luck. Real attempt, Fidel Castro, would definitely agree, who, well it was a fucked up mission so, definitely Cunts Idiots and Arseholes. Going to fake an assassination, you do what is recognised and what will sell, the sniper shot or coup, not exploding drones. Thanks to Cunts Idiots and Arseholes, likely just to be the first of many, thanks morons, there always has to be the first, to trigger the copycats, they can do it better and some will. This will come back to haunt the US of A lots of drones, lots of explosives an lots of radicalised idiots.
One idiot faction in the US deep state is still pushing a Venezuelan take over because it serves their financial interests, even when the US government most definitely does not want any Venezuelan oil on the market, to drive up the price of oil, so the US can sell those 2 decades of fracking production followed by 2 centuries of worsening pollution, for the highest fuck everyone else profit margins.
Somebody always has to be first, thanks arseholes.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Yeah... If the CIA wants someone dead, they probably wouldn't have missed. Besides, they are way more crafty in their ways of killing people... they would have made it look he died of food poisoning or a lone psychopath took him out.
Anyone who "sees parallels" between the deregulation and push for expanded trade and employment in the US relative to the nationalization, currency controls, and Government-economic-stranglehold of Venezuela is simply insane. The economic policies put forth by the Trump Administration are pretty much diametrically opposed to those of Maduro.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Some of what Trump has done is good, but we should not pretend that he is some great proponent of the free market. For example, his penchant for tariffs and trade wars is outright idiotic and will only hurt the American economy in the long run. That Trump looks good on economic policy is more as a result of Maduro being batshit crazy than Trump being intelligent.
Matsudo is another despicable power pig making outlandish claims like Chavez visits him in form of a bird. Perhaps the drone was Chavez telling Marduro to knock of the Bird shit.
Obvious false flag is obvious.
Nice economy, stupid.
it wouldn't be a lot of resources. Give a few guys some training and some cheap drones and some explosives. Pretty good RIA actually if it ends up toppling the country's leader and we get to replace him with one friendly to our interests (e.g. that lets us take the oil money).
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
No, you are disgusting. You worship psychopaths and mass murderers.
Keep in mind that Trump is not promoting tariffs and trade wars--he is simply reacting to tariffs in other countries. The media conveniently forgets to mention that Trump has said he will sign a trade agreement tomorrow with any country that agrees to sign a bilateral agreement where both sides agree to lower tariffs to zero. That's his definition of free market. I disagree with him on a lot of things, but I agree with him on that.
Dolphins are still the preferred choice for bomb-carrying tasks. Far more reliable than drones, Teslas and Samsung phones that all tend to explode prematurely.
"It's funny how people just associate socialism and communism to any government not working out."
That's because socialist and communist governments NEVER work out. Your pattern recognition abilities aren't too good, are they?
That gives way too much credit to the CIA. When they wanted Bin Ladin dead, they sent the Seals. The CIA is a bunch of screwups.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Anyone who can't come up with their own original thoughts is just a parrot and not worth listening to. Copycats are dumb and make me roll my eyes. You can do better.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
he is simply reacting to tariffs in other countries. ... I don't see a big difference.
The EU has tariffs on US products in the range of 6%, the US has tariffs on EU products in the range of 4%
Jumping up and putting tariffs in the range of 20% on selected EU products makes no sense IMHO.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
The bombing might be fake. ...
The news is not
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
The Soviet Union showed that a planned economy is workable.....it just doesn't grow as quickly.
Laughable. The Soviet Union ended up dirt poor after decades of lying to each other about what was actually being accomplished. Lost the cold war simply by running out of money. Classic quote from the era: "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." What definition of "workable" is that?
Never mind the police state.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
The drone in this case was most likely a propaganda-level device carrying a sympathy bomb.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
50% higher tariffs aren't a big difference?
Maybe you should go back to school.
Yeah, it's not even alliterative. At least go for crooked Clinton. No, wait, it's ambiguous who you mean with that. Hateful Hillary?
I'll just share this fine catalogue of CIA competence:
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyl...
I think it was actually worse than that. The Soviet Union managed to miss educating its people for the current world's economy. That's why it is still centered on exploitation of mineral wealth. They still produce world class academics, but have no real way to get them into the economic life of the country. The West and Orient have figured out how via startup companies...well, China is rather using a sledgehammer here with their state owned companies, but they are not very efficient nor resourceful.
However, the worst thing the Soviet Union did to their people was make them reliant on the State. Putin needs to keep this charade up or he leads nothing. Too many of their people are susceptible to Kremlin propaganda. With no initiative of their own, they are also prey to the few oligarchs who have transitioned from state ownership to "private" ownership.
Laughable. The Soviet Union ended up dirt poor ... What definition of "workable" is that?
Read some history. Or even just the Wikipedia page. While it ended up a mess, the Soviet had impressive economic success at first.
Beginning in 1928, the course of the Soviet Union's economy was guided by a series of five-year plans. By the 1950s, during the preceding few decades the Soviet Union had rapidly evolved from a mainly agrarian society into a major industrial power.[15] Its transformative capacity—what the White House National Security Council of the United States described as a "proven ability to carry backward countries speedily through the crisis of modernization and industrialization"—meant communism consistently appealed to the intellectuals of developing countries in Asia.[16] Impressive growth rates during the first three five-year plans (1928–1940) are particularly notable given that this period is nearly congruent with the Great Depression.[17] During this period, the Soviet Union encountered a rapid industrial growth while other regions were suffering from crisis.[18]
It's funny how people just associate socialism and communism to any government not working out.
Perhaps because the socialists and commies, including Bernie Sanders, praised Venezuela back when oil prices were high, and only fell back on the standard lack-of-purity excuse when Venezuela ran out of OPM and the failure became obvious.
Socialism Flowchart
The example of Venezuela doesn't show the failure of central planning. A trained hamster could do a better job with central planning than Maduro does.
This is the with the right leader it would work! argument and it is complete bullshit.
"His name was James Damore."
"We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us" is funny hyperbole.
It was not hyperbole in the slightest. Saw it with my own eyes.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
"Simply by running out of money"? They had to match the military budget of the whole NATO - an organisation created by wealthy and summarily far more populous countries.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Like they haven't missed with Castro?
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Had nothing to do with that - otherwise the majority of the former soviet republics wouldn't have even less freedom nowadays than they had back then.
The state of the economy coupled with nationalist uprisings - that later became outright wars - were the factors that brought the USSR down.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
It wasn't an attack, it was just a DJI drone doing what it does best. Going down in flames.
No, let them keep doing it. It makes it clear that they're aren't interested in any sort of intelligent response lets everyone know to ignore them.
The soviet Republics could have been kept down if Gorbachev had more of a taste for violence, but I've talked to protesters who were there, and although the Soviet system was comfortable, they wanted freedom.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I prefer to improve their conversation skill, then I have interesting people to talk to.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Oh yeah?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
...and the first world nations don't care enough about South America to bother to assassinate him
Translation: "I don't know enough about geopolitics - who does? - to really have any fucking clue who would or wouldn't want Maduro dead... but damn it sure is easy to send bold declarations like the above ripping forth from my asshole...
Other than the one stupid line, though, you're probably right about it being a hoax; this would be right out of Erdo's playbook.
No, it is the "Venezuela provably has the wrong leader" argument and if you can't see the difference, you are bullshit.
Better planners would only delay the inevitable coming collapse and prolong the Venezuelan people's suffering.
The problem with collectivist systems is base human nature. Collectivist systems must overcome base human nature to succeed, capitalist systems leverage & harness that same base human nature towards constructive ends.
All collectivist forms of government like socialism and communism are authoritarian by their very nature. The State tells people where they'll live, where they'll work, what work they'll do, how much money they will earn/receive, what sort and how much education they receive, what level medical care they will get, etc etc etc.
Anytime you put people in authority over others without unavoidable and direct consequences for abusing that authority, those people placed in authority will generally become increasingly authoritarian, capricious, corrupt, and cruel the longer the situation exists as was shown by Milgram's experiment.
Socialism and communism provide people with food, shelter, medical care, and work. We have an institution here in the US that provides the same things, but very few are willing to participate voluntarily.
We call it the prison system.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
And you were the one to write Art of the Deal. So it should make sense to you.
Just like the DPRK. Everyone voted for the beloved leader. He just happened to be related to the old leader. What a coincidence!
Let's see.... USSR, Vietnam, N Korea, Laos, Cambodia, the whole Eastern Bloc, Zimbabwe, pre WW2 Germany China before they turned semi capitalistic. and now Venereal. He's right! They all worked out great and didn't kill, starve, and torture tens of millions of their own.
Technically correct, factually irrelevant - due to the tiny difference between 4% and 6%.
What might be relevant is the amount of subsidies each 'nation' pays to their producers.
Got any stats on that?
^^^^ Found the snowflake!
And yet all you're going to get is "Trump is doing great. Hillary would have been worse" no matter how improved their conversation skills are. That doesn't make for an interesting conversation.
Sounds that may be explosions were heard during his speech. That much cannot be disputed.
Maduro says right wing plot, Colombia president, yadda yadda ...
However, fire fighters on the scene said it is a gas tank explosion inside an apartment near where the speech was.
Neither side gave more details, and in this climate and culture of conspiracies, it is hard to get to the real facts.
Long version of the above on the BBC.
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
Ok, so which planner made Hong Kong into an ultra rich city? Singapore?
I don't know about Hong Kong, but in Singapore it was Lee Kuan Yew.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
After they learn alliteration we'll work on their data collection skills.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
What you are saying sounds more likely as there were pictures on Twitter of an apartment on fire.
The fact that no-one was killed and that a drone explosion would have been far away from a building if it was trying to get close to the president means that an apartment explosion makes way more sense.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Anybody who could afford a drone has already left, and the first world nations don't care enough about South America to bother to assassinate him. Therefore: Probable hoax. He'll use this as a pretext to consolidate power and steal all the rest of the money.
That is, unfortunately, not true. I have a good friend whose parents refuse to leave because they support Maduro even though things get worse and worse. The kids have all left the country, and the parents are getting by just fine, but the country is getting more and more dangerous as time goes on
Actually, Trump has pushed for diminished trading(notice how he wants to cut off foreign nations), reduced employment(he's put people's jobs on the line for not kowtowing to the national anthem), and decreased freedom and security.
Add in his desire to work up a cult of personality and declare enemies at a whim, and he's entirely comfortable with selling out national assets to his cronies, and well, you'll find he's just a tinpot dictator at heart.
But hey, at least the national debt is skyrocketing.
You = TDS.
If it only takes 10 seconds of googling you should have done that instead of spewing the standard fact free I-hate-trump-just-because-trump nonsense.
This is true. The Chinese import technology, not products. As soon as they have the technology they don't need your products anymore. Access to markets in China is abysmal at best. Though, the US is not the only country facing this issue with China, and the US is not in a trade war "just" with China. All of the free market countries that would have unilaterally agreed with us going after China are now more likely to side with China in this war.
US, and us against the world is not a strategy. If Trump wanted to go after all of these trade deficits, then the oldest simplest strategy is to divide and conquer. First go after China with European help, and then deal with Europe. China's ability to hold out is completely dependent on their markets outside the US, if we had worked with our other partners to cut them off, this would have been much simpler. What Trump is doing is bound to hurt the US more than the outside world in the long run because either our ex-trading partners will find other suppliers or our suppliers will move overseas to meet the demand. The US does not have the ability to artificially support all of our own exporters that will be hurt by this. In the end it's a crap shoot whether or not we lose more in lost markets for US producers than we gain in lowered tariffs on products that China may or may not import at all.
once more into the breach
Even if not a deliberate fraud, accidental explosions can be turned into causes for war.
"Remember" the Maine" was a political response to an apparently accidental explosion on the USS Maine that helped trigger the Spanish Amercican War. The Reichstag fire in 1933 was used by the Nazi party to blame the Communist party in Germany, a vital part of their rise to power. The history of the modern Middle East is filled with the political results of bombings and _accusations_ of bombings and murders, some of them entirely fake.
The quaint age of this expression is betrayed by the inflation charts...
And to allow him to properly crack down on what's left of the opposition...
This implies, there is some money left to be stolen. Unfortunately, Socialism is so bad, even the most equal comrades are still fairly poor compared to those suffering under KKKapitalism.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Maduro says it was an assassination attempt by drones, BUT firefighters say a gas tank in an apartment exploded.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/04/venezuelan-president-nicolasmaduro-cuts-short-speech-panic-amid/
The difference is even smaller when it comes to the tariffs that US exporters actually paid in 2015 — a weighted average of 1.4 per cent on non-agricultural goods sold in the EU, and 2.1 per cent on non-agricultural exports to Canada. EU exporters to the US paid an average weighted tariff of 1.6 per cent; Canadian exporters 1.3 per cent.
The lucidity of your vocabulary, its sheer magnitude astounds me.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Killing Maduro today isn't going to fix Venezuela's agricultural self-sabotage and failure to diversify the economy from oil exports years ago under Chavez.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
better luck next time to rid the earth if this scum
Missed him by that much! We'll try again.
Dammit, I already need more shoe fax paper.
The only real leverage the US has with other Governments - other than military might - is economic. So far, President Trump seems to be quite successful in bringing pressure to bear to open up markets (level the playing field) and get bullies to come to the table (sanctions). I'd much rather him use tariffs and trade negotiations to grow the economy and push for fair trade, than either give away hundreds of billions of dollars in cash or start another war.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
"That utpoic Socialism conversion isn't working out so great for them. But one more central-planning initiative is sure to fix it..."
It wasn't working for Chavez either, he just had better control by paying party members a stipend.The key word here is "work", which the majority of the Venezuelans don't. 1/3 of the of people earn their livings by thievery. They can't produce their own food and you have currency now that is so worthless that the largest domination bills aren't counted for trade, they're weighed. Hungry people do radical things, that place is a powder keg ready to explode.
But they still can fill their tanks for less than a pint of water costs. They've sold the sole to Russia so there will be stabilization in the future, but it's not going to be pretty for quite a while.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Ask, for example, the Turkmens again about their freedom.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
I just refer to them as "Billery".
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
"Trump has done nothing good,"
Spoken like someone who doesn't have and IRA/401k.
And lets face it, a video of him doing a porn star in the Oval could be released today and if The Street is happy, he's reelected. We don't give a fuck about appearance anymore (listen to him:-) we care about results. He'll keep the bear market rocking and will be reelected and voted for by the people who whine about him.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
"bear market rocking"-- the BULL market.. my bad.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
They screwed up their academic class too; pushing Lysenkoism as the state sanctioned "science" set back their biology research by decades (and nicely fucked up their agricultural sector too). Imprisoning and executing academics who were bright and courageous enough to push back against the dogma didn't help any, either.
There were certainly some world-class academics coming out of the USSR/Russia, but not nearly as many as there should have been.
As a former eastern bloc citizen, I've never seen anybody starving here in my country; torture did exist, of course, but it wasn't any different than that made in, for instance, Guantanamo.
I know places like Cambodia were a whole different story, but comparing that to countries like Hungary, Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia is like putting Switzerland and Somalia inside the same "free market countries" bag.
Steel-fisted Stalinism*, particularly after the purges and consolidation of power, can prove effective for a medium length duration.
(*'Stalin' literally translates as 'steel.' Yes. A guy who adopted the name Joe Steel was in charge)
they would if you would stop the coporations from hiding their money in tax shelters, just like the US wasn't powerful enough to shut down ZTE in under a week? ...... methinks you give the chinese too much credit
i live in Canada, and for a fact we charge the fuck out of your imports, it's why i pay a local TAX and IMPORT DUTY when i order something from BH Photo in New York, these are the same companies telling you it would be "too" difficult to collect taxes in the US, whereas they can calculate them for us, and we have 3 levels of taxation plus import duties and coordination with Customs ..... so i think you're full of shit, on a 500$ order i usually pay about 80-90$ import duty and taxes on a GPU for example and thats only if the GPU is nafta qualified for export (encryption and such) ....
was basically destroyed by two World Wars, where as America made it out almost completely unscathed. They didn't have fuel to bring their tanks home for Christ's sake.
And there's always lots of make work jobs in a post industrial world (and more everyday). The different between the USSR and America is we use out military to create make work jobs so it's not so damn obvious. The downside to that is that much military power sitting around constantly destabilizes the world.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
If she's so crooked then why hasn't the DoJ, headed by Sessions who was appointed by Trump, investigated her yet?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Poor analysis.
The US benefits from low oil prices; cheap oil hurts the enemies of the West. Putinist Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Venezuela badly, because these countries' governments need high oil prices to buy off their populations.
If anybody would benefit from chaos in Venezuela, it's the Maduro regime in order to consolidate this death grip on the country, or perhaps Vladimir Putin, who needs lots of money to continue spreading his evil and chaos around the world.
The US loves cheap oil for transport. Its domestic shale industry is technologically advanced, and improving daily. The Saudis tried an oil-price cunt act to try and strangle US tight oil/shale ; they only ended up getting stronger, effectively capping the price of oil forever.
If the CIA wants someone dead, they probably wouldn't have missed.
[laughs in Cuban]
We call it the prison system.
I've actually heard many people react with indignation that prisoners get medical care, meals, education and more.
They only want rock breaking and torture.
Soviet economy was growing, and rather quick by today standards
https://nintil.com/2016/03/26/...
Actually, it's a difficult and interesting question - why the USSR fell. Still unanswered.
The betrayal of soviet elites played a big role in that, I think
This troll was masterfully executed. I give you points for the following: - blaming the US for Chavez' brutal mismanagement - repeated grammatical errors - simultaneously embracing Islamophobia and Islamic terrorism - your "woke" denunciation of the mass media Next time, add some Unicode to annoy everyone, and refer to your detractors as "sheeple." But otherwise, this was a terrific effort.
I am not an economist by any means, so my thoughts here might be just do much drivel. However, I'm not convinced that claimed impressive economic success of the Soviets can be attributed to their political philosophy, at least not in a humanitarian way. The quick conversion of a society from a less efficient to a more efficient means of production can have many losers and a few winners. One way to achieve a rapid change is to change heartlessly. Overall, it may be classified as a good (like ripping a bandaid off quickly), but it is not necessarily in keeping with a humane philosophy except in an extreme view of what is humane. The impressive growth rates during the first three five year plans could be explained by the rapid increase in productivity brought about by industrialization, not by any particular benefit of central planning, similar to the way that the introduction of the Internet into mainstream use in the US brought about a big leap of productivity. In the end, a particular method of management should be evaluated by how well it works over the long term, and it appears to me by that measure that the Soviet approach was not successful.
Starving, referring to the Ukrainian famine of the 1930 and China's Great Leap Foward of the 70's
Even if Maduro died tomorrow, the Army is controlled by the Chavistas, and those generals have a vested interest in making sure the regime stays afloat (they're as corrupt as hell and a new government would almost certainly lock them up). Killing Maduro would probably makes things worse since the Chavistas would both be able to blame the US and simultaneously lock up opposition leaders. The best that can happen is a revolution coupled with a colonels revolt or coup. At that point the Chavistas would probably flee the country with suitcases filled with gold and US currency.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Except it's not a socialist regime. It's a much more mundane kleptocracy.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
On the other hand are the subsidies that America has. How much government money is given to farmers? Now they are overproducing and want to dump their products on other markets. How much government money is given to companies like Walmart in the form of help for their employees like food stamps so they can pay wages below the cost of living? How much pork is given out? How much money does the USA borrow every year to subsidize businesses with low taxes?
Then there the weird tariffs that America imposes on their trading partners, chickens that include imported trucks, softwood lumber that are repeatedly shot down in the international courts as being unfair, but they raise prefits for American companies on the back of home buyers.
There's also all the profitable services that America sells and then doesn't count in the trade balance.
With America it's like the playing field is never tilted enough in their favour. Its economy could be doing excellent but as all the profits are sucked up by the upper class, the average person is left out and open to blaming whomever the rich point at.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Maybe if America didn't subsidize so much, they could have fairer trade, but instead it is borrow and borrow and give money to their various business friends. Then there becomes the need to dump your products on other countries. Socialism for the rich.
Look at your sig, you want no taxes yet are willing to elect governments that spend like shit and borrow how many trillions?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Considering that in the end VAT is added, no, not a big difference.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
And CNN said it was a can of gas in an apartment.
So which countries subsidize less than the US? And as far as spending goes - I personally would LOVE a constitutional amendment that mandated a balanced budget at the Federal level, and that receipts collected above the spending limits are to be dedicated to retiring the national debt, until such time the debt is eliminated - and the excess funds are returned to taxpayers at the same rate at which they paid. I believe most of our big issues result from Federal over-reach, and that is only possible by the vast tax-and-spend powers currently enjoyed.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Any success of Soviets is caused by Lenin promoting greater meritocracy than before him. Since Bolsheviks didn't discriminate on basis of belonging to "nobility" or whatever more leaders and other skilled cadres were available to them. They even were taking old imperial soldiers and government workers. While white movement apparently caught in old prejudices suffered lack of skilled people. Stalin later dismantled this system out of pure paranoia and ignorance. Similar processes played out for Napoleonic France, Muslim Caliphate and probably in many more cases.
Funny how fans of socialism always proclaim "that wasn't socialism" every time it fails.
-- Will program for bandwidth
I tried saying "widely-known enemy if the working people, influence peddler, bribe solicitor, anti-freedom extremist, and paid agent of the Chinese intelligence services Hillary"... But it just didn't have the same ring to it.
Despicable behaviour! Respectable ousted dictators of the Chicago school would never stoop to things like that.
They'd have already wired it to Switzerland like Friedman taught them.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
that was a large part of what made America successful. Rebuilding (West) Germany & Japan allowed us to pry money out of the hands of our ruling class and put it in the hands of the working class. It kept our post war economy going. In the absence of fear and war the ruling class will claim all the money and resources for themselves only seldom doling them out in exchange for power. When that happens you get a Dark Age. Progress stops in favor of right wing conservatism because the ruling class, who already have the best of everything civilization has to offer, work to prevent anything that threatens their cushy lives.
Eisenhower knew this was coming and oversaw the creation of the Military Industrial Complex to stop it. Go watch some youtube videos from Norm Chromsky or read Eisenhower's memoirs where he laments the creation of the MIC (having decided the damage caused by basing the most powerful country's economy on a war machine outweighed the benefits of prying money from the hands of the rich). This is all well verified history.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
"At first". Then the reality of slavery by any other name set in.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Wow, what is the bigger part of that story: Venezuela still has fire departments... Or The apartments still have gas...
like every good socialist - except of course that your typical Marxist always expects to be in a group of elites who are "more equal" than everybody else.
There has NEVER been a Marxist regime in human history where people ended up equal; the "leaders" ALWAYS end up with more and their friends and supporters ALWAYS end up as a richer elite with special estates and other wealth and privileges. It's quite simply IMPOSSIBLE to erase human nature. Marxists ALWAYS rise to power by promising lots of "free stuff" to masses of poor people with economic plans powered by unicorn farts and fairy dust, but they really only end up with economics powered by theft and enslavement and deprivation because unicorn farts and fairy dust do not exist in the REAL WORLD.
There's NOTHING in that about Bernie that was out of context - the FULL CONTEXT is that the man is a self-admitted Marxist who honeymooned in the Soviet Union during the Cold War and is using the same tired shtick all Marxist agitators use - Oh and he also happens to be rich (with multiple homes) despite so many years in the Senate where his annual salary is a tiny fraction of the money needed to get elected.
now, you can't have _excessive_ wealth for all. Excessive wealth is when it ceases to be material wealth and becomes _power_. It's when you can control access to food, shelter, medicine, education and transportation such that you begin to decide who lives and who dies. We have that in America today. 45,000 people die of completely preventable diseases every year.
The fear that comes from knowing that could be you is a big part of how our ruling class keeps the working class divided among themselves. You fight against single payer healthcare because you're afraid if the other guy has healthcare you won't get it. Only fear can make that work because it's been demonstrated multiple times that single payer healthcare works (Canada, Germany, France, all of Scandinavia, I could go on...).
Money is not necessarily power. It only becomes power when you can force someone to do something they otherwise would never consider doing. That's not fixing your plumbing. That's going to Afghanistan to fight for an oil pipeline we didn't need.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Remind us again how well Venezuela's doing?
>Never mind the police state.
It actually started to crumble when it started to be less of a police state.
Stalin actually created a healthy scale of socialist pay: people who work on stuff that matters were swimming in luxury.
Partocracy dismantled this system together with Stalin's "personal responsibility" principle by creating a "nomenclature" class of infallible "industry" leaders that were just transferred after they screwed up in one sector of economy.
By the end of Brezhnev times, the trolleybus driver was payed 380 roubles a month, a salary that exceeded at least twice the salary of the college professor.
Economy does not work with equal pay for _everything_. It simply does not work and it will never will.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
>It was not hyperbole in the slightest. Saw it with my own eyes.
Exactly. Screw the dumbass Western socialist idiots who have never experienced the idiocy of equalizing pay yet propose it with the foam in their mouths.
There are no formerly Soviet socialists. None left. The ones that left are either professionals or senile.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Trump has said he will sign a trade agreement tomorrow with any country that agrees to sign a bilateral agreement where both sides agree to lower tariffs to zero. That's his definition of free market. I disagree with him on a lot of things, but I agree with him on that.
Except global trade is a lot more complicated that that. Besides tariffs there is the issue of subsidies, both hidden and open, regulatory differences, royalty structures, etc.
Trump's definition is what the world expects from a simpleton but the world does not, and will not ever, work that way.
Because they have a _lot_ of dirt on each other. Specifically the DNC and RNC could end each other.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The Chinese import technology, not products.
https://qz.com/1249984/as-dona...
It's better.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Funny how fans of socialism always proclaim "that wasn't socialism" every time it fails.
Depends on your definition of 'socialism' and 'fails', or if you are capable of a granular conversation. "Socialistic' countries make up the top of the highest quality of life, health, education, equality etc.
Funny stuff indeed...
What definition of "workable" is that?
Never mind the police state.
Dude they own your president. That is as workable as anything gets....
So when the noise is heard, the camera showing the parade shows a *lot* of what look like soldiers fleeing the scene. Isn't it their job to run towards the battle?
If I was president of a tinpot dictatorship like Venezuela or America (boom! boom!) anyone fleeing would face the firing squad.
Actually, it comes close to that sometimes. For a prototype/engineering development headphone I did in May, I paid exactly $0 on a $7800 import price from South Korea (Model Solutions is a great source for rapid one-off prototyping of an entire system). I checked it out, then forwarded it - with the EXACT same classification as it was received in - to my client in France. Who was immediately hit with a 2800 Euro import duty, even though it was clearly marked as a prototype. The shipment was reversed (for $1100 US) and then re-shipped with a declared value (and insurance) of $7800 as originally done, but as $950 - and was not subjected to any duties.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
I build full in-ear headphones (which qualify for Made in the USA, given the sourcing of amount of materials in the US and the fact all assembly is done in the US), and Canadian clients always pay import duties on them. Even though NAFTA.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
On the other hand are the subsidies that America has. How much government money is given to farmers?
US farmers received about $172 billion in 2010. The EU is considering cutting its subsidies down, by 2027, to $438 billion. Right now, it's about 3 times the US farm subsidies - and may "only" be 2.5 times that amount, in another 9 years.
With America it's like the playing field is never tilted enough in their favour.
Because it usually isn't. Your own request about farm subsidies shows as much.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
And yet all you're going to get is "Trump is doing great. Hillary would have been worse" no matter how improved their conversation skills are. That doesn't make for an interesting conversation.
To be fair, that's an accurate statement. Especially since she wanted to shoot russians in syria, because they were in syria. And her previous brilliant plan was to reneg on an agreement with Qaddafi, and destabilize most of northern africa. Which of course has now led to the open-air slave markets, and NGO's acting as criminal organizations that go fishing for illegals to bring to Europe. Try to remember that many of those NGO's also directly coordinate with the smugglers to boot.
Om, nomnomnom...
"They are a democratic presidential republic like the US.... a failed one you can say that fell into dictatorship...."
C'mon, Trump just wants to be a dictator. The US isn't a failed republic (yet).
It's interesting how numbers come up. According to the EU's 2010 budget, PDF downloadable from https://publications.europa.eu... subsidies are 43.8 billion Euros, your Wiki article claims 57 billion. Perhaps Reuters is counting how much individual countries spend as well. Does the US numbers include State spending?
Anyways, your country is applying tariffs on Canada and Mexico due to their high agriculture tariffs that don't seem to exist excepting Canada having some on dairy to prevent the subsidized Americans from dumping. Mexico seems to have about 1.3 Billion in subsides that due to corruption goes to drug lords and large businesses and Canada has about $80 million.
Mexico is a sad story as NAFTA allowed massive dumping of corn and such, putting many Mexican farmers out of business and leaving them little choice but to try to sneak into the States for survival. Mixture of a shitty trade deal and shitty government there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Yeah, NAFTA sucks. It was a terrible deal. it's great that President Trump is trying to redo the whole thing...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
So which countries subsidize less than the US?
Canada for one, as near as I can find, about 80 million for agriculture, perhaps a bit more including the Provinces. Multiply by 10 for comparison as the US has about 10x the population.
There's also still some supply side management in dairy along with tariffs to prevent subsidized American farmers dumping their products.
As for the amendment forcing a balanced budget always, there's times when borrowing may be needed. Might be better to be balanced over a 4 year length or such. Unluckily America is so used to the borrow and spend ways that it might break your country to go so severely over to austerity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Well America did pretty well out of it, especially before Mexico joined. Of course then your businesses went to China, which fucked the common worker.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Are we talking about Germany in WW II? They had a totalitarian government that partnered with private corporations and picked the winners (who favored the government in return), and went on a made dash to take over the world with military might. Personally, I think that was fascism -- but whatever "ism" you might think it was, their government and way of ruling didn't FAIL -- they were beaten militarily by about half the planet.
And it was damn hard at that. If they had only chosen the USSR or Europe and not both, they probably would have won -- Europe and the USA being the easier of the two.
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
The US has been nickel and dimed by it's trading partners since WW2. Why is it fair for the EU to impose 6% while the US is only imposing 4%?
Dude they own your president. That is as workable as anything gets....
Dude, read my post again and notice I that that it is about the Soviets. Russia 2 is about the mob and the corrupt kleptocracy. It's a do-over of the old Soviet police state apparatus, with mafia instead of communists this time. It does work somewhat better economically but is still terribly inefficient.
To distract the long suffering Russian citiizenry from their miserable economic state, Putin sets out on his foreign adventures. Yes, they did manage to put their man into the office of the presidency of the United States. That's a remarkable achievement. technically, much like a string of serial murders might be an impressive achievement, but is not to be admired except perhaps by another serial murderer. This was just one of a string of horrific achievements by Russia 2, which must not go unpunished.
Compare the Chinese economic miracle to Russia's stagnation. China is also a police state, but it is not run by the mob, it is run by the police. This has proved to work pretty well, growing faster than America or Europe or any other major industrialized power for many years. Because the Chinese government recognized that the capitalist system inherently outperforms a planned economy and they simply legalized it, that's all they had do do, along with mechanisms to regulate foreign exchange, capital flow, things like that. They had the bright idea that maybe capitalism is not incompatible with a centralized police state too. So far they are right.
Russia does not have a capitalist system, they just have a massive state sponsored racketeering operation. I will step out here and say, this is not as unworkable as the old dead Soviet system, but is still unworkable. We shall see.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
I can immediately think of a much bigger pre-Trump tariff on EU-made products, the 25% "chicken tax" on light trucks (utility vehicles like vans and pickups) imposed in the early 60s as a response to when France and West Germany accused the U.S of dumping chicken on their markets at below cost.
"Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
What's even funnier is when systems like those of Norway, Scandinavia and much of western Europe that people actually use as an example of a socialist system done right are brought up, people like you claim they're somehow not socialist enough and thus don't count.
As hard as it may be to understand, socialism is fundamentally a pretty vague concept and can be be implemented in a lot of different ways without the state control of the economy that has messed things up so badly in Venezuela.
"Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
you REALLY need to read more about the venezuelan government before commenting nonsense.
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
Could be. Or it could be yet another CIA's failed assassination attempt. CIA has a long history of amateurish failed assassination attempts of Venezuelan leaders. This one matches the pattern.
Another point that lies forgotten is that Maduro still enjoys firm support of around half of his people. Something that is commonly ignored by Western media entirely.
The other way around. Failure tends to associate with socialist and communist government. It's cause and effect. If you focus on redistributing resources too much, productive people start to lack drive to produce resources so they can be distributed.
The opposite end of this is about as bad. When there's little redistribution, you get utter shitholes in third world, where people can literally buy other people because life of someone born into poverty is utterly hopeless and no amount of merit can uplift them.
That makes literally every single "Trump is bad" poster so far irrelevant, and this entire thread pointless. You can do better than argue that you're arguing in a pointless thread, as that makes you the dumbest of the lot. Not only do you "understand that this thread is not worth listening to" but you also "actively wasted time not just reading through it, but replying".
At least you're using your own words, good job.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Not much of a compliment, being smarter than someone who doubles down on his admission of being the dumbest man in the thread that is filled with various trolls.
Except that the EU trade deal is already a done deal, so evidently his strategy is working just fine with many nations. Canada and Mexico are also talking bilateral deals.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/25/donald-trump-strikes-trade-deal-eu/
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
Not much of a compliment
It's a huge compliment. Look how few people manage to do it.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Well, i would not be surprised if thete is a Trump II.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Saskatchewan alone reaps nearly $370 million annually in farm subsidies. Quite a bit more than your claim? At least that's what I found in the Canadian media.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Yep - China should have had it's favored/"emerging market" classification yanked a good decade ago. Good thing President Trump is actively pushing China via tariffs and other trade pressure - hopefully the rest of the world will follow on and start treating China as a 1st world trading partner, not a 3rd world emerging market.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Essentially everyone here, including APK, creimer and even most of ACs?
Interesting, part of having swung so far right I guess. I understand Alberta also has some subsidies that they can't afford.
It's the problem of figuring out subsidies in federal systems, whether Provinces, States or in the case of the EU, countries.
In the case of Saskatchewan, seems those subsidies should be gone as they're unneeded.
In the general case, food security is important for any sovereign country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Yeah, it's funny, especially when they openly label themselves as socialist. And I agree we need to look close at the US: I keep trying to find the empty grocery shelves--has anyone seen them? Finally, 'strawman' much? No one claimed infallibility for democracies, but they are the least worst of all forms of government, else you wouldn't be living here.
"World Trade Organization data show that goods shipped from the European Union to the United States are charged an average tariff of 1.4%. It's 1.9% for goods going the other way." See: https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/... And then there are tariffs on services, for which i believe the US has larger tariffs.
Actually we have another such system that is frequently lauded and praised, indeed people volunteer for it all the time, the military.
Too late...the fake news already ginned up support for the president. Mission accomplished.
I didn't know where to step into this, but your comment feels in pretty good sync... Afterthought: Unless you're snarking. Are you snarking? If so, sorry! *grin*
Back circa 2008 I was told I would possibly be moving "real South" of the border so I started following news down there. Part of that follow includes something called Inca Kola News (IKN) in Peru.
He had some interesting observations that included noting the wife seemed almost smiley and that there appeared to be a remarkably short recovery time between the attack and press releases, case solvation, yada-etc..
The Nicolás Maduro "assassination attempt" in Venezuela today looks like a false flag set-up
Devil's Advocate-wise relative to the recovery time... Violence of that type is somewhat the way of that geographical area so it could possibly be easier to step back up into the speed of Life faster in the aftermath of something that violent....
Maybe.
?. :)
I comment, therefore I am (procrastinating elsewhere)..
However, in times of greater oppression, in days early after revolution, during rule of Stalinism and especially WWII and early Cold War, feedback loops were still in place and socialist economy was concurrent with, or even outperforming capitalist one.
That's not even remotely true. Before the war, Stalin imported US engineers and had them build modern factories based on the latest US designs. He paid for this by selling wheat while his own people were starving, and with gold from the mines run by slave labour. Even once they had the factories, there were huge quality problems. The equipment in the factories was first rate, the problems were due to lack of worker training and motivation: Soviet management made the classic blunder of emphasizing meeting quotas over quality - a problem that would continue through the Cold War - and they were very dependent on imports from overseas during WW2.
For example, Soviet made-aircraft during WW2 had serious problems with window quality. For this reason, you'll see pictures from the war of Soviet pilots flying with canopy open for better visibility, in the Soviet Union, in the winter! Under these circumstances, the cold temperatures would have severely impaired pilot efficiency. One Soviet squadron actually refused to switch from their American-made P-39's to Soviet made equipment because the quality problems were so bad with the Soviet equipment - and Soviet units would operate P-39's (a pre-war design) until the end of war (even operating them from the Autobahn in Germany). The long period of Soviet use of this aircraft is the main reason the P-39 ended up having the record for more enemy kills than any other US made aircraft - despite being effectively obsolete in the West and the Pacific by the start of 1943 (see any of the several books on the P-39 for more information).
The Soviets also had serious problems with producing electronics: all US and British tanks and aircraft had radios, but only 1 in 9 or so of their Soviet equivalents did for much of the war. This effectively turned a lot of their vehicles into little more than targets, because they couldn't coordinate effectively without radios. Battlefields are noisy, smoky confusing places - and that's on the ground, air coordination is even harder! It's no accident that the majority of German Luftwaffe losses - especially combat losses - happened in the West. The lack of radios is a big part of the reason the Soviets took such enormous losses, especially in the air - one of the reasons Soviet pilots liked the Lend-Lease aircraft was they came with good quality radios installed.
You'll also see pictures of Soviet tanks leaving the factory with an extra transmission strapped on the back - this was done to provide a spare, because the main unit would fail so quickly due to quality control issues. The quality control problems were so bad at the start of the war that many of their units never made it to the battleground - they broke down before they got there. Things did get better over the course of the war, but quality control was something the Soviet state never fully mastered. Steven Zaloga has a nice discussion of some of these details in his book "Armored Champion: The Top Tanks of World War II".
Individual soviet engineers could be, on occasion, creative and capable - especially in the face of the ever-present threat that their families would be sent to the work camps if they didn't perform. The T-34 and Il-2 designs provide some good examples of this. Even the Soviet system as a whole could be responsive in some ways to real events - witness the improvements made to the T-34 design as a response to the pre-war fighting against the Japanese in Khalkhin Gol, and the improvements made in tank design in response to German developments during the war.
But, overall, this was in no sense a case of a socialist economy outperforming or even equalling a capitalist one. The Soviet state had to import critical resources in huge quantities from the
Nope. Everyone one of those countries have market based economies and the businesses are neither government nor worker controlled.
Definition of socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
-- Will program for bandwidth
You can't redefine a word to make it fit your twisted reality. Its definition is not vague as you claim.
Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Did you even read the oxford dictionary definition you quoted? Because it talks about production, distribution and exchange being owned or regulated by the community as a whole. In other words even your own definition makes it clear that collective ownership is not necessary and a socialist can easily be just that by having things like proper labor protections, proper consumer safety and up-to-speed financial regulations.
Hell, with your definition you could even make the argument that the U.S is socialist because authorities like the FDA, SEC, NHTSA and various labor boards exist...
"Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
Nope. Everyone one of those countries have market based economies and the businesses are neither government nor worker controlled.
Definition of socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
As I already said, it depends on your definition. There are millions of pages on this subject that describe it better than the over-simplification given above.
Here's some more elaborate definitions that other people use that may help with your confusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
If you want a local example take your local garbage collection. It is owned and regulated by the public via government administration. Schools, Hospitals, Fire services, and Military are other socialist services (ie owned and regulated publicly) that work better than any market driven model.
Based on this, the happiest and highest quality of life countries all have a strong mix of market based and socialistic models for delivering services. Not everything can be reduced to black and white.
I'm old.....
When I started using that analogy, doughnuts were about 15 cents. Now, of course, they're OVER a buck here in California, and fancy ones are closer to $1.50.