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30% of America's Student Loan Borrowers Can't Keep Up After Six Years (cnbc.com)
The IRS recently ruled that under some circumstances employers can link their 401(k) matching contributions to the amount of an employee's student loan repayments -- making it easier for recent graduates to take advantage of this employer benefit. But that's one spot of good news in a sea of bad, according to one anonymous Slashdot reader:
Two new articles criticize America's student loan policies (under both the Obama and Trump administrations). CNBC cites reports that within six years, more than 15% of student borrowers had officially defaulted, while 10% more had stopped making payments and another 4.8% were at least 90 days late. And for-profit colleges fared even worse, where nearly 25% of graduates defaulted, and a total of 44% faced "some form of loan distress."
These trends were masked by Department of Education reports which stopped tracking repayment rates after just three years (reporting defaults rates of just 10%), according to Ben Miller, senior director for post-secondary education at the left-leaning Center for American Progress. "Official statistics present a relatively rosy picture of student debt. But looking at outcomes over more time and in greater detail shows that hundreds of thousands more borrowers from each cohort face troubles repaying."
These trends were masked by Department of Education reports which stopped tracking repayment rates after just three years (reporting defaults rates of just 10%), according to Ben Miller, senior director for post-secondary education at the left-leaning Center for American Progress. "Official statistics present a relatively rosy picture of student debt. But looking at outcomes over more time and in greater detail shows that hundreds of thousands more borrowers from each cohort face troubles repaying."
100% can't keep up.
But MAGA
What we need is a Constitutional Congress to eliminate the prohibition against Debtors Prison and lock these people up for mandatory Life Sentences so that they can be put to use doing menial factory work for free, and ones that show some aptitude for more thought intensive work can be put on the market to serve Corporations as Indentured Servants if the Corporation is willing to pay their bond. This is what making America Great Again means and if you are against it, you are a GODLESS LIBERAL WHO SUPPORTS COMMUNISM AND SATAN! And we all know that after we are done with the Mexicans and the Muslims, we'll be going after "those people" as well
Come on everyone - let's all chip in to cut education funding so a billionaires can get tax cuts they don't need!
Help me out here; people accepted these loans, having access to the terms ahead of time, correct? They were adults, presumably, who made these commitments, right?
Why, then, should we be looking to forgive them for making bad choices? Stupid decisions should be painful, so as to teach people not to do them anymore.
I say this as someone who will be paying off his student loans for at least the next 20 years. I made a remarkably stupid decision and I'll own the consequences.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
I bet a good percent of those holding off on paying are only waiting for college to become "free" (at whose cost?)
maybe those going to collage are not doing a proper ROI (Return on Investment) analysis before making their collage and funding choices.
;)
A collage degree does not guarantee financial success. The entire process needs to be approached and executed with diligence and awareness.
Since it seems to me even public collages have no problem helping students run up huge debts they know won't provide the student with a marketable
skill set to lay a firm foundation for paying back the borrowed money. The collages (public and private) are corrupt and deeply involved in this problem.
Just my 2 cents
The college up the road became a university, spent a lot of money on granite, gyms, rock walls, building upgrades. None of which actually helps with education, but it certainly ups the tuition. No problem, the kids can just borrow more.
Graduates can't afford to pay their loans. Simple calculus.
The previous Dims government made it possible for students to borrow more. Therefore, school fees increased almost unlimited with 0 improvements.
The current Tards government hasn't done anything to improve the situation.
But this is to be expected: Democrats always working to make America worse, Republicans never working to make America better. Down it goes!
There are two huge problems here ... the first is giving large unsecured loans to people who aren't working towards employment, and the second is a growing attitude that it's okay to steal from the lenders. Liberal arts are a crucial part of every education, but the government shouldn't be subsidizing many student loans to people who are getting a degree that is unlikely to pay off. Let those who want to study English pay for it themselves.
And fuck you to all the entitled asshats who borrowed a hundred thousand dollars to party for 5 years, and now feel like they're being imposed on by having to repay the loan, because "student loans are evil." You borrowed money from someone who knew you didn't currently have the ability to repay, got the taxpayers to subsidize it, failed to get the means to repay comfortably, and blame the system instead of their choices.
Yes, I"m old. Get the fuck off my lawn if you're not willing to mow it. And yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I got an engineering degree instead of a history degree, and then when I could afford to fuck around, got the PhD in history.
For-profit colleges should be barred from accepting loan money, if not shut down entirely. On the public and private side, useless majors such as gender and ethnic studies should be eradicated from academia. They provide no benefit at all and are responsible for incidents on numerous college campuses.
no fucking chance. I work K-12. Starting probably as early as elementary the lie that going to college will some how entirely protect you for life dropping you in to a high paying cushy job and all you have to do is plan your vacations is inculcated. This is the result of the shrill EVERYONE MUST GO TO COLLEGE!!! screaming for generations.
Education, like healthcare, should be good, and free, for all. We don't need more aircraft carriers.
This is what you get by insisting on a for-profit higher educational system. I see all sorts of wild data points.
On one hand I get that making people pay for college will cause them to take it more seriously and value it more, but the idea you have to go into debt for life to get higher education is insane. It used to be mostly MDs did that but now it seems to be everyone.
At the same time, major corporations are no longer demanding degrees to grant interviews and award employment. Any degree that isn't strictly professional (medical, law, teacher, engineering) is more likely than not to turn out to be worthless.
China is producing three times the number of engineers the U.S. does (out of a 4x population) and I don't see the citizens there financially ruining themselves to do so. At the same time movement conservatives insist that anyone without a degree is doing so only through bad life choices and don't deserve any financial security in a decent living standard. They will then go on to point out how the Chinese have a great work ethic and we don't and that is why China is "winning" so vote Republican/MAGA.
Our major educational institutions have turned into basically huge investment banking firms accumulating massive assets like crazy, even while they hike their crazy tuition ever higher because of "rising costs." Harvard has endowments more than $35 Billion, and the poorest of the top ten has more than $8.5B. Can you afford to go there without a huge loan or financial assistance? Why not?
I don't know where this is all going or what should be done. Maybe voting socialist (Bernie?) will work because voting MAGA sure as hell won't. I'm just glad that I'm not in the position of having to earn a degree at this point of my life. But the way things there is ruining a generation. Maybe two or more.
A new practice across the West, “porking,” where pranksters place pork products in with the halal meat at their local grocery store, affirming that multiculturalism forces a single standard onto all cultures, “assimilating” them.
This might dismay some of the new arrivals who are, because every ethnic group works in its own interests alone, hoping to assimilate the natives by demanding special treatment in law, attire, and yes, the meat section of your local grocery store.
As of yet, varieties of “porking” have not been found for other cultures, but presumably someone is working on this somewhere, knowing the internet and its canny and wily legions of trolls, recidivists, and malcontents.
In the meantime, activists in the UK and EU are continuing their process of “porking” as a silent and innocent protest against the abuses of multiculturalism.
And its someone else's fault.
If we had just let the market work, the only people that would have been going to college would have been the wealthy, those that actually earned scholarships or those WHOSE STUDY HABITS & MAJOR SELECTION would have shown to a commercial lender that they were a worthwhile risk.
The end result would have been college costs not rising at 3x inflation, no public money wasted on students whose prospects were poor anyway, likely many more engineers and a lot fewer Russian Medieval Literature majors serving coffee at Starbucks.
But no. The social engineers felt it was necessary that everyone go to colleges, with Pell Grants and government backed loans, the result being now a college degree is pretty much a requirement for any job (whether it requires it or not), and students with no serious prospect of decent income are saddled with ridiculous debt.
Nice job, social engineers.
-Styopa
I'm always amazed at the stupidity of socialists and the general population. When you institute guarantee on stuff irrespective of reality you are going to fuck up the free market and that will have seriously negative economic impacts. It doesn't matter if we are talking health care, education, or something else. What has happened with guaranteed education and educational loans is that schools are now free to raise prices irregardless of the populations ability to repay them because governments have guaranteed the loans. The financial benefactors can't lose.
We have similar problems with health care today. Government regulations have been substantially increasing prices. Never mind that. Government regulations have substantially increased prices across the board for all sorts of products and services. Everything from internet access to vehicles cost substantially more because of socialist wealth redistribution programs.
Instituting monopolies for instance on cable or additional safety mechanisms. It is one thing if its impacting the environment and others- but things like seat belts, air bags, and similar? Let the free market decide which if any of these things are important and leave it up to individuals. This is how we can recover from a financial disaster befalling us no thanks to increasingly authoritarian and socialist policies.
The only chance we have is if people who want freedom come together like what is going on with the Free State Project in New Hampshire. A migration of individuals has helped fix major problems with bad supreme court rulings, block or undo many bad laws, and more. However we as a society never new real freedom and so it's going to be a long while before there are a sufficient number of people here to make that happen, but it can. It will. I moved in 2016 and I've seen a lot of good stuff in just the last couple years. From elimination of regulations over crypto currencies to the elimination of permission slips for concealed carry to re-instating warrants for searches that the supreme court recently decided weren't always necessary (many states now will search your home for tax reasons and similar purposes!!!!).
It means that a large part of students do not have access to academic education worth its money. They have basically been ripped off. Now, whenever somebody posts here that college or university is not worth it, I typically strongly disagreed. But if academic education in the US is actually this bad (at least in Europe it is not), then I see their point. A good academic education is still worth all the time and money you invest, but if you cannot get a good one, then the situation is really bad.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
It has nothing to do with Socialism. In most of Europe University if free or costs a token amount. This has not driven quality into the ground. What you actually observe is a market failure where blind trust in capitalism has turned out to be very, very stupid, because capitalism as practiced today is all about short-term profits and no strategic view.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
When I borrowed a quarter million dollars to buy my house as a rather young man, it made me really nervous, but everyone older than me told me it would be great! Housing values always go up! They did go up. Then they crashed in 2008. Shit. Fortunately I had a job and could keep making the payments, or may have had to be underwater, and bankrupt.
Almost all older adults will tell younger adults they have to get a college degree, even if they have to borrow money, and government programs help them do it. It must be OK right? It must be good advice, right?
If some "financial advisor" gave the elderly such good investment advice as we give younger adults regarding housing and college, that "financial advisor" would be in jail.
Um...it has everything to do with socialism. The entire argument is about running the education system as a socialist system or letting it continue to run as a semi capitalistic system. Maybe you need to go to college or if you already have you should pay attention.
Who do you think would win in a fight to the death: a wealth preppy kid who never had to lift a finger or a "helpless little troll" who understands fighting to live? If put in the position of being starved to death, even if by proxy, a large percentage of the population will not respect your property rights and will clearly show you how any rock can readily dislodge your smug brain from your cranium. The main reason for not having outright uprising in any society of this size with this level of inequality is for those near the bottom to know that with sufficient effort they can live. Take that away and you take away our society.
What a horrible combination.
Oh, I thought it said "can't keep it up". Ahem.
Every syate i have lived in has guarantees about which credits transfer from a community college to a state university, will degree programs that transfer 100% of all credit. The guarantee is "if you get an associates degree in any of rhe following majors, all credit will transfer to a bachelor's degree in the same field at the state university".
If you take puppetry, ceramics, and floral design at the community college, those may not transfer toward a bachelor's in chemistry. In orser for the credit to transfer 100%, one needs to plan ahead and take appropriate courses. One easy way to get transfer credit to virtually any school is to take the core general studies courses - English, Math, History. Floral design probably won't transfer, so don't take that course expecting it will count toward your bachelor of science.
Statistically going to college does on average increase your lifetime earnings. It's not necessarily bad advice, it's just not been updated regarding choice of majors, private v public, etc...
Unfortunately, your typical high school graduate has rather limited math skills, so aren't able to figure out that a $50,000 loan to get a job that pays $30,000/year is probably a bad financial decision. The lenders have zero incentive to turn down these loans since they are guaranteed. A future fix is to limit loan amounts based on the degree being pursued. A STEM major can get a bigger loan. A genders studies major is sent back to community college.
-- Will program for bandwidth
what happened is that federal subsidies were cut in the 90s and the cost of college was passed directly onto students. I was in college when it started and the folks at the economics dept predicted these prices and that there'd be loans (guaranteed by the government) to cover them. You can thank Clinton and Bush for this mess (and Obama for not fixing it, but to be fair he had his hands full with the market crash Bush left him and the batch of right wing "establishment Democrats" the voters gave him).
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It's not MY fault that you have a worthless college liberal arts degree, that pays 50k, and, you think living in (insert name of trendy hip city) would be cool until you find out it costs you 100,000.00 per year to live there. THAT'S your fault. Life isn't easy, and it's even easier the quicker you figure that out. Perhaps you'll have to live in (for you shudder) a non hip trendy place that doesn't even have a starbucks for a few years until you get on your feet. Guess what! Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you have to climb the ladder of success. But, I'm sure if you Generation M types cry about it long enough, the mommy/daddy federal government will come along, pat you on the head, say there there now, don't you worry about it. We'll forgive those loans and put them on the back of the rest of America. You go and have a good time at starbucks & the trendy night spots.
I'm always amazed by complete fucking idiots like you who can't understand the reality of what they're blathering about.
The Free State Project is a bunch of cunts who want to take no responsibility for society. They claim that if they'd just get government off their backs,everything would be peachy. To do that, they had to move to a place where SOCIETY had already created everything they needed to survive, and then blew smoke up stupid peoples asses saying "look what we can do".... after not doing a fucking thing.
They're nothing but jokes. If those dickless wonders were so special, they would have started out their little commune in the Dakota's or Wyoming.... 100 miles from the nearest dirt road. They didn't cause they couldn't; they needed SOCIETY to have already created everything for them. All they are are ungrateful little bitches with complete dipshits touting them as something special.
You don't like government regulations? Great....when you start drinking water contaminated with lethal levels of chemical waste from the factory down the road and being happy about it, well then i'll think of you as something more than a complete fucking idiot and hypocrite.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
You're absolutely right. It doesn't have to be that way, either.
I took a long break from college, going back later in life. By that time I had already learned some painful lessons abkut debt, having learned from my own mistakes.
I went to a very inexpensive state university and rather than graduating with a mountain of debt, I graduated with MORE money than the roughly $0 I had when I started school. I chose a degree in a field that's in demand, and a program I which I earned respected industry certifications like Cisco CCNA as part of my degree program. Halfway through school, the certifications and things I had learned allowed me to double my income.
Shortly after graduating, I landed a job making just shy of $100K in Texas (equivalent to $200k on the coasts).
Tuition at WGU is $6,000 / year, minus the $1,500 tax credit, so my total cost of school for four years $18,000. Except halfway through I had those certs which got me a job where my employer paid part, so the total cost to me was about $15,000. No need to graduate with $90,000 in student loans!
The $24,000 (or $15,000) cost of my degree was a great investment to start earning $100,000/year, so perhaps it makes sense for the government to encourage people to study fields that are in demand, via a school that provides good value. The problem is some people's idea of "fairness" means they have the government encouraging people to spend any amount of money to study any ridiculous thing.
If you want to see seven years at $50,000/year studying French History, you can sure do that if you have the $350,000 to spend. If you DON'T have $350,000, it's probably dumb to go $350,000 in debt studying French History at Yale. Perhaps the government shouldn't encourage people to do that.
No. Student loans are not socialism. Grants, maybe. There is a lot more to the story than left vs. right, but you seem determined to go down that path.
Anyone who rants about seat-belts is not to be taken seriously about anything else.
It's all well and good to tout personal financial responsibility. However, the information you need to make a wise decision is often not available - because it is being deliberately withheld but the institutions. There are also a lot of predatory institutions out there which intentionally mislead the students.
The only solution I have been able to come up with is this: Require colleges and universities to purchase all non-performing loans at face value. (Note - this does not forgive the students' debt) If their graduates are unable to find adequately-paying jobs and therefore default on their loans, the college will end up buying a lot of bad debt. Raising their tuition/fees won't help because then they will have even more graduates default. This would put downward pressure on the tuition/fees. Also, this would give institutions incentive to help their graduates find work and make rational choices regarding what degree they plan to pursue, etc... A number of institutions would go bankrupt, but that would be a good thing - weeding out the scam artists.
Obviously you would have to craft such a law in a way to close all the loopholes so that the college/university couldn't get out of it...
It is a good thing. This ensures that all the Gender Studies, Lesbian Dance Theory and Liberal Art graduates will live in poverty and squalor for the rest of their lives, as they should.
Because he the student loan industry federalized so he could use the profits from student loans to pay for Obamacare. That's right, he wants you to go get an advanced degree so he can get money out of you to pay for the healthcare industry.
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
Fuck off. I hope your singing the same tune when you suffer a severe medical issue in your old age and are bankrupt due to your medical bills.
I know for a fact that my daughter's school has a huge influx of Asian students all paying full tuition no questions asked.
Almost all older adults will tell younger adults they have to get a college degree, even if they have to borrow money, and government programs help them do it. It must be OK right? It must be good advice, right?
If some "financial advisor" gave the elderly such good investment advice as we give younger adults regarding housing and college, that "financial advisor" would be in jail.
I tell young people to get the best education they can get for the lowest price possible.
Also consider the job prospects and income potential the education will provide.
I know a lot of defaults are from distance learning and for-profit schools (University of Phoenix, DeVry, etc.) as well as college drop-outs, so what happens when we control for those?
What is the loan risk/default rate is for students who actually graduate from 4-year brick-and-mortar school.
It is apparently legal for a lender to sell of your loan, and not notify you of who the new lender is, and they aren't apparently required to give the up to date info on the address of the person who took the loan. When I was in school, i found myself in default, when the lender kept lying to me and saying I didn't owe anything yet. I kept trying to make payments for 2 years, Turns out they sold the loan, and despite having my current address, etc on file, they provided the original address I took the loan under to the new loan company. I was in default because i couldn't find the owner of the loan to make payments, and the loan organizations didn't make it easy to find. I finally found it, paid off my loans. (It was a Sallie Mae loan). Once I started paying of the loan, it took 10 years to pay it off, but I did it. It's not that the loans are burdensome, sometimes the way things are setup, the person who owes the money can't keep track of where to send the payments, because the loans keep getting sold and moved. My loan was sold 6 times in the course of paying it back, and if I hadn't been very aggressive at making sure I was sending my payments to the right place every month, then I would have likely ended up like so many other students. The way the loan system is setup, it's designed to make it difficult to not go into default on a student loan. It should not be legal for a lender to sell a loan. They were the one's who loaned the money, to me it's breech of contract to sell the loan like that. I took the loan from Company A because I wanted to do business w/ Company A, not so Company A could then sell my loan, after promising they wouldn't to Company B, then Company B sells it to Company C, etc....on and on...
I attended the School of Hard Knocks, & it didn't cost me a cent!
they're kids. Since when is 18 an "adult". Hell, even science says you're brain's not done developing until 25, but ignoring that can we really expect someone in their late teens to fully understand all of the ramifications of a choice that big? And even if they do can they really predict how much a given degree is worth?
But let's ignore all that. Are you a Doctor? How about a mechanical engineer? Or a financial analyst? Are you all of those things? Are you John Galt? If not then at some point you're going to depend on the labor of these students. You're gonna need them to care for you, or build your roads, or manage your 401k. And you're gonna need them working so that 401k grows.
You're directly benefiting from their education. Meanwhile you're blowing them off. You're old enough to know better (you can use a computer after all). Stop being short sighted and selfish. This is a civilization, and your line of thinking is going to see it toppled.
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the problem. College was _always_ this expensive. We haven't done anything radical to colleges. The dorms aren't that nice. There's a few that are and they're for the rich kids. You pay extra to get into them, there's fewer of them and most kids pay for the cheap dorm or off campus living (or with their folks). I'm putting a kid through college right now.
Public Universities are _public_. They don't operate on supply and demand. They don't raise prices just because they can. Again, I'm putting a kid through college and saw this first hand. My kid's program had half as many slots as qualified (GPU > 3.8) applicants. They used interviews, sports and volunteer activities to sort out who got in (no, they did not use skin color). If it was supply & demand they'd have just raised tuition unit they only had the # of applicants for slots. Like you do for a Britney Spears concert or a sports game.
What made the price of college sky rocket was Clinton & Bush slashed federal funding. Again, college was _always_ expensive. You didn't notice because 70-80% of the cost was paid by the federal government. The Mega Corps allowed this because they needed a trained workforce. Now that they've got H1-Bs and outsourcing they don't need us anymore; and they wanted those tax dollars back. So they bought off Congress & the last several presidents for tax cuts and had funding slashed. You and your children have been made obsolete.
Go drag your ass down to your local University and pull up some college newspapers on microfiche from the late 90s/early 2000s. You'll find story after story, all meticulously researched by college economics professors, discussion this and how loans would start cropping up leading to a debt crisis. What you will _not_ find is any discussion of this in the regular newspapers (outside of a few left wing rags). Our mass media is owned by billionaires and they squashed these stories.
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These federally secured loans were instituted on the premise that it would make the American Dream accessible to everyone. The American people loved the idea. Federal government assisting common Americans in their rags-to-riches story. I cannot help but believe that this contributed in no small part to the rapid technological advancement of the past thirty years that we now take for granted. The side effect is that we have a surplus of college degrees, making them less valuable, while a lack of federal regulation of tuition in true socialist fashion allowed said tuition to sky-rocket. So, they almost got it right. Much like Obamacare, it wasn't too much government intervention that messed everything up, but too little. So it is that the libertarian was right about some aspects - no government intervention might have been better than what government intervention there was. And some wonder why people think that capitalism is failing us.,
he was already worried about the ruling elite living too far from the squalor they created to care about it. His entire economic system was predicated on the assumption that the rich would live near the poor and that they wouldn't shit in their own backyard. If he were alive today he'd be a Democratic Socialist.
You're putting the cart before the horse. The loans came after a decade+ of federal funding cuts. College was _always_ expensive. We were subsidizing it. We stopped in the late 90s (thanks, Clinton) and what do you know, tuition went up. Congress was stuffed full of the economic right wing. There was no political will to restore the subsidies (nobody wanted to pay for it) but _plenty_ to back private loans against default (gotta protect those banks from the evil, evil humanities majors, after all).
It's all a narrative you've been fed to keep the gravy train of low taxes and big corporate subsidies going; and you've bought it hook, line, sinker. Get woke friend.
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Which is completely wrong.
So the $10k you thought would go to pay for your loan is actually only $8550 after taxes. And (on average) only $5900 of it goes to pay back the loan principal. Which works out to a 27 year payback. Except extending the length of the loan by that much increases the expected interest from $73k to $132k. Which makes it take even longer to pay back the loan.
At $10k per year pre-tax income set aside for oan repayment and 5% interest, it actually takes more than 30 years to pay off a $160,000 loan. If we taught our kids this stuff in high school, they wouldn't get a $160k loan to pay for college. They'd tell the school asking for $30k per semester in tuition to go take a hike. During the housing crisis, people complained that lenders were preying on naive homebuyers, getting them to sign on to loans which they had no realistic hope of ever repaying. Well, the exact same thing is happening to students with student loans.
Perhaps American students should study at those places in the world where education is free(er) and perhaps even (a lot) better.
Ivy league edutaction is absolutely a good eduction, and it most certainly will guarantee you a job that allows to pay back your student loan. But that is not where most Americans study.
If one procent (close to 6 billion, source wikipedia) of the military budget would go into the education budget, it would make a big impact on eduction. No more student loans needed?
...They used interviews, sports and volunteer activities to sort out who got in (no, they did not use skin color).
Yes they do. If it's white or wheat, you go to the back of the queue.
Some ideas:
1) Have more certificate programs (classes only in the major, and no general education classes required). If I don't have to take an art class, and if an art major student doesn't have to take a programming class, then the other student and I save time and tuition money. If I want to take an art class, fine. But I don't want to have to take it.
2) If a school takes taxpayer money, then it should have to publicly state where it spends its money. Donors (including the government) might say they'll donate to the school, only if the school pays at least 75% of its funds on current teacher salaries (not pensions or non-educational programs).
3) This public breakdown of expenses should be for each of the last 25 years, so that we can see the trend. (For example, 25 years ago, a hypothetical school spent 90% of its funds on current teacher salaries. 10 years ago, it spent 60%. Last year, it spent 40% on current teacher salaries.)
4) Have a variety of ways to get an education: trade schools, 4-year schools, online schools, individual and group study, 30 students get together and hire a teacher.
5) Have a variety of ways to prove your skills. This includes 4-year degrees, certificates, standard tests like the Oracle Java Certification tests, student projects, and student contributions to open source code.
6) Let students take different classes from different schools. Let me take class A from school A, because school A's teacher is good. Let me take class B from school B, because school B charges the least tuition. Let me take class C from school C, because only school C teaches class C. If I do this, I won't get a certificate or degree. But I can prove my skills in tests and in my student projects.
I'm one of the people who posted one of the articles. I SERIOUSLY suggest you read both articles in their entirety. Even your "it's all your fault" argument is addressed complete with a history lesson.
*sigh* I can tell who did and didn't read either article, because it's not "dumb people going to school caused this mess". Some of the people are highly educated, they just chose public service (where the janitor makes more than they do) instead of lucrative industry. For various reasons things didn't work out, and the system failed them (and no I'm not talking about the educational institutions).
I never understood...
That is abundantly clear based on your nonsensical post.
Instead of making shit up in a failed attempt to prove your point, why don't you do a little research first? Start here: https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-...
HS Diploma: $712/week or $37k/yr
Bachelor's Degree: $1173/week, or $61k/yr
Sure, making up a number and choosing $10k/yr more per year makes college not seem worth it. Now redo your math with $24k/yr more. And don't forget to include the difference in unemployment rate and benefits too.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
College was _always_ this expensive.
This is simply wrong. Tuition costs skyrocketed after the government stepped into the student loan business. Colleges and universities saw it as an open invitation and (understandably, given effectively a blank check) raised tuition prices sky-high.
If you want to see tuition rates much lower and far fewer "feminist basket-weaving for transgenders 101" courses and more real education occurring, get the fucking government out of the student loan business!
If you look in the USA vs say, UK.
Approximately 95% of "college" age folks in the USA are enrolled in college courses. (well, "tertiary" education)
In the UK it's about 60%
In the US, about 40% drop out with out finishing meaning, you have a huge debt, and nothing to show.
Several posts in here have said things like "just a trade school"
Most folks I know that put 2-4 years in as a plumber's trainee or electrician, journeyman etc, got PAID "ok" those years, then now are making really good money.
It's hard work, but it puts you in line to own your own business fairly quick, and then train others to do the grunt work.
I am 31337 or something.
I actually totally agree with you. However I also see all of society pressure kids to go to colleges that have become way, way too expensive.
The whole engine of evil that props this up is cheap government student loans. If student loans given out were halved the entire exploding tuition industry would pop like a balloon. Hell, even without that action tuitions are bound for a big drop anyway as more and more people are warned about huge debts and fewer people claim college is the only path.
I was happy with college myself and would love for others to have the same experience I did. But if I were looking today there's no way my logical mind could claim school was worthwhile, too giant an opportunity cost for the amount tuition is taking from you, even when the degree is one like CS where you can pay it back for sure.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
that would be too obvious. If you're kid's tuition went from $900/semester to $9000 the next you'd notice that and be pissed. It was gradually dialed back and replaced with loans.
Outside of community colleges (which run courses that exist only for elective purposes) there are no basket weaving courses, transgender or otherwise.
We gree on one thing: Getting the Government out of student loans. I want college tuition to be free to all. Kids are the future. And I don't mean that in a namby pamby sort of way. I mean we need them to grow the economy for us old folks so we can retire off their earnings. Where the hell do you think the money from a 401k comes from? Leprechauns? Again, we could import trained workers via the H1-B program, lifting the caps entirely so that we don't need to educate local talent, but once you open that Pandora's box it won't be closed, and they'll take your job too. Indentured servants beat regular employees every day of the week.
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unless you're a borderline genius or you just don't need school because you already know the material. 2 years at community college does not prepare you for the work load of even a public University. Doing your undergraduate work a at CC was something you did back in the day when you'd been working in the industry for some time and just needed to bang out a degree to get higher pay or a promotion. Heck, these days most public universities don't have enough space for their own students let alone ones transferring in who are likely to fail....
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I know a lot of teachers and one thing I've _never_ heard anyone say is that they schools have too much money. Hell, I've never heard _anyone_ say their department in _any_ line of work would be better off with less money. Nobody thinks like that.
Let's assume for a minute your post is legit, you do realized the first thing they'll do is cut your pay, right? Then your staff? Especially if they're all really just in it for the money like you imply.
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Make the universities liable for a portion of defaulted loans, and what the problem fix itself almost instantly.
Student: I want to do gender studies
University: You have to pay upfront
Student: that's unfair, I demand an education
University: we only subsidize vocational degrees.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
As someone who doesn't live in New Hampshire, I wouldn't mind them actually taking over the state. If they turn it into a failed state, then it'll serve as an warning to everyone else. If by some miracle they do succeed, we can just copy what they did. It's a win-win situation for those of us not involved.
When Obama took over the student loan program, nearly every conservative in the country warned this would happen. This was both entirely predictable and WAS predicted because it was a basic result of a basic law of economics.
Obama basically made unlimited amounts of money available to an immense number of would-be college kids. The 100% predictable response of all those leftists running the universities and colleges was to raise the prices (to gobble up as much of the newly available cash as possible) and encourage kids to sign up for any oddball major that might tickle a kid's fancy (since you want the would-be student to want to be a student, not dread courses and a major that are difficult). This produced a glut of new grads with hugely inflated college debts and lost of crazy degrees that are not in demand in the marketplace were adults must live.
Interestingly, Obama made no effort to save his supporters from the consequences he KNEW he was setting them up for - indeed he did thing like set the health insurance age to 26 so the "kids" would not feel the downsides of his policies until he was done with his second term.
Also interestingly, all those "liberal" colleges and universities had no qualms at all about teaching kids how great socialism is - but they refused to practice it themselves by sharing the pain with them and lowering their fees and resulting debt. Most of these institutions did not even do the minimally-decent thing and counsel kids to major in things that were likely to result in jobs that paid enough to making paying off the loans easier.
I don't warn liberals anymore when I see them driving off a [figurative] cliff, because I'm tired of being called "mean" and "judgmental" and "closed minded" (and a sexist/racist/homophobe/Islamophobe...) rather than having a rational conversation, and I know they'll do the unwise thing anyway and then still be angry at me later for not helping them dig out of the hole they dug themselves into while cursing at me for warning them to stop digging.
Save the Rich by Garfunkel and Oates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M8fOwHnwg0
A defaulting on debt is *always* painful. But see student load is given a special status among other type of debt. Among other it is the ONLY one you cannot declare bankruptcy for. Look if YOU borrow 10K from a bank spend it all on hooker and blow, at some point YOU can declare bankruptcy. But a student doing it to take part on school but not finding a job, cannot. Care to explain that with your "pain" and stupidity" theory ? Relevant :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Do you find that fair ? No it is not. You can declare bankruptcy for all other type of loan. Ask yourself why not student.
Leftie: "Everyone should go to University! It's a Human Right!"
Normie: "Er, everyone can go to university. What's the problem?"
Leftie: "NOOO! Poor Brown people can't because Poor, Brown, Misogyny, Racism, Patriarchy, NAZIS!"
Normie: "Huh? We have bursary programs. Kids with good grades can fill out a form and get their education paid for. So what's the problem?"
Leftie: "REEEEEEEEEEEE! Everyone should go to University! It's a Human Right! REEEEEEEEEEEE!"
Normie: (sigh) "Ok, assuming you're right, how do you propose to pay for all that. University education is expensive."
Leftie: "Well tax the rich of course! Tax the evillll corporations!"
Normie: "Fuck Off"
Leftie thinks about this for a while rubbing 2 brain cells together then comes back.
Leftie: "I've got it! Why not a student loan program! We can setup yet another government bureaucracy to manage it! Big Government YAY!"
Rightie: "Hmmm, my banker friends would like that. They can profiteer from that. I think we need to ask University Administrators what they think of this."
Universities: "So what you're saying is we can take everyone in and we'll just get paid no matter what? HOLY SHIT THAT'S FANTASTIC!!!!"
Results:
Now Universities are all about asses-on-seats and not about higher learning.
It gets worse. Universities pressure professors and threaten their tenure if they fail too many students. Sorry Quantum Field Theory is hard...
It gets worse. Universities emphasize retardo courses like gender studies, intersectionality, postmodernism, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc..
It gets worse. Kids get saddled with 50000 of debt and useless degrees living at home with mommy and daddy into their 30's.
It gets worse. Now we have a situation where universities can charge whatever they want for tuition fees. 200+% over CPI.
It gets worse. Because courses get dumbed down Industry has trouble finding good candidates and therefore look outside. > 50% PHDs are H1B visas.
Solution: Kill the student loan programs. Whoops not so easy when the Banks, Government and University Administrations all support it.
>> This implies that attending college is a stupid decision.
Attending College in the USA may very well be a stupid decision.
aaaaaaa
I'm always amazed at the stupidity of socialists and the general population.
This is one of the most droolingly stupid posts on this thread. How on earth you can you believe that the loan based system with massive protection only for companies is "socalist"?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
The IRS recently ruled that under some circumstances employers can link their 401(k) matching contributions to the amount of an employee's student loan repayments
You seriously expect me to believe that it was the IRS forbidding employers from contributing to an employees 401k without the employee putting in something that was stopping employers from doing this, and not the fact that the employer is just a greedy bastard?
They're just doing what comes naturally - trying to maximize profit by rent seeking.
AKA being greedy. So they are part of the blame. There's no unintended consequences. They're educated, they know exactly what they're doing, and the consequences. Its all about the money. Take away the incentive to be greedy, and you start solving the problem.
Indeed. Not everyone needs a degree. Tradespeople are needed as much as that k0d3r, or gr33dy bu$iness major. We will always need plumbers/hvac/carpenters etc.
Right for every dollar of federal grants and aid a college receives, tuition increases by about a dollar and forty cents.
For many things in the tech world, people can teach themselves, but it's up to you to consider hiring them.
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
You do realize that comes from right wing think tanks funded by the likes of the Koch Brothers who just don't want to pay for your schools, right? Also, I realize you might not have kids not, and maybe not every (they're not right for everyone) but you're still going to depend on the labor of the next generation.
Anyway, as mentioned above Public University's do _not_ tie tuition to demand. If they did tuition would be much, much higher as they are turning qualified students away left and right. Instead what they do is a balancing act of trying to keep tuition low enough while paying for the facilities and as many teachers as they can find (there continues to be a teacher shortage due to low pay, bad working conditions and that teaching is just plain hard). Colleges are trying to maximize graduation throughput.
Seriously, go down to your local community college and talk to some of the teachers and maybe even a few admins.
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The University idea was a wonderful thing. Then, most of them being run by people of a particular political lean, kept building and making the campuses so opulent that tuition rates kept going up, and the Government kept giving out bigger and bigger student loans. So, perhaps now with the student loan debt bubble about to explode, Universities will scale down the spending stupidity. Back in 93 I was going to the University for a BSEE, got it in 4 years. Our classrooms were in dilapidated basements and trailers, but we still got a great education. The only difference was that we were able to get a 4 year degree and pay about $10,000 total. There was hardly ever a loan, usually a part time job would pay it off. Now either inflation since 93 has been 300% and the govt has lied about it for decades, or the Universities have simply gone mad along with the State Governments! The Universities will go back to trailers and basements with the same teachers/professors, and a 4 year degree might come in around $20K, the way it should be!
Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
College was _always_ this expensive.
No. The classic "1938 cost-of-living" picture shows that 4 years of Harvard cost less than one year's average pay.
Today, you can't even pay for 1 year of Harvard with one year's average pay.
That's a 4x increase, with the correction for inflation built-in. There was some federal aid to students and institutions during 1938, but it was very small - certainly not enough to make up a 4x increase.
I'm not disagreeing with your statement that government has played a negative role here in recent decades, but that's not the whole story. Government corruption is just part of the problem - we have to look at the universities themselves to understand the full scope of the problem.
I believe a large part of the blame has to be placed on the publish-or-perish system - in my many years of college and graduate school, only about 20% of my instructors were doing a decent job teaching, primarily because the others were distracted by research. In one case, I had a professor who had been a fantastic teacher turn completely around and become a terrible teacher - after he discovered the importance of research to his career and stopped putting in the time needed to be a good teacher.
Repeated informal surveys of my peers - many of whom graduated from top ranked US universities - suggests that this is the norm in US higher education. The "good" students figure out that they have to largely teach themselves, because so many of the instructors are so bad.
The reward system in universities creates massive conflicts of interest - individual pay, promotion, prestige, and many opportunities are largely determined by publication - and the rating/ranking of universities (also almost entirely determined by research) makes a bad problem worse.
Universities need a lot more money to operate because so few of their people are doing a competent job at their primary function - and because a lot of the money that does come in gets diverted to research and administration instead of teaching. It's become a lot like the music industry, where very little of the money spent actually goes to the musicians - in universities, relatively little of the money spent actually goes to teaching.
This was probably always a problem, but it has become a much bigger problem in the decades since 1938. WW2 played a role - federal research funding went up considerably during the war, and has stayed relatively high ever since. The available pool of money has gotten a lot larger, and greed has kept pace. Universities have gotten used to being able to take large amounts of money without returning corresponding value, and now see it as their due, as part of the way things "should" be - and are fighting bitterly with propaganda and lobbying to try to keep the system broken in their favour.
The publish-or-perish system poses a major ethics problem - and perhaps a major legal problem, since rights regarding ethics in schools (or any organization receiving government funds) can be asserted under the 9th Amendment. A right to not be subject to fraud can also be asserted under the 9th Amendment - and in many cases that right is being violated. Why are we paying so much in tuition and then having to put up with bad teachers, or even teach ourselves? Seems like fraud to me.
In summary, the ethics problems posed by the public-or-perish system are certainly a big part of the reason the cost of higher education has gone up so much since 1938.
Government needs to stop allowing patents for publicly funded research (or at least change the rules in some major fashion), and to stop funding research for most of the people that are also teaching (an exception might be made for a small percentage of instructors that are teaching research classes for small minority of students) - both of which would remove the ethical conflicts of interest that are currently doing so much harm to US higher education. There may also need to be some rules that govern th
You are absolutely correct. if the GP had bothered to do even 5 minutes of research, he/she would have seen that college prices began climbing the EXACT SAME YEAR THAT STUDENT LOANS WERE INTRODUCED.
But, apparently that's too much work and he/she would rather just talk out of their ass.
The number of people talking about making college "Free" is.. sad.
It's not free and it will never be free. Someone has to pay for it.
You bitch about student loans and then suggest that taxpayers should have to pay for what you don't want to pay for. In effect you want to make EVERYONE pay for your fucking schooling. Then you drag up the "it's beneficial to society" LIE!
If it's so goddamn beneficial to society, then why are a lot of people who graduate with degrees having such a hard time making ends meet? If having a degree is so desirable, then why aren't companies snatching you people up the moment you are holding the sheepskin?
I see news report after news report about people with Bachelor and Master degrees working at Starbucks or McDonald's. Is anyone going to admit that maybe we've saturated the market for degreed workers? I've watched every single state/tax-funded trade school, in my area, disappear. There are massive shortages of workers to fill high paying blue-collar jobs. But everyone has been fed this lie that a degree is a requirement for a successful career.
LIE
A lot of the time it helps.. No argument there. But right now, at this point in time, it doesn't seem to be a requirement. We appear to have hit saturation. Yet we keep cranking out folks with degrees when there are no jobs to take them in.
Then, you get hit with the old double-whammy. Not only can't you get a job that pays well enough to make those loan payments, but a lot of the time you can't even get a shitty job because you are over-qualified and employers know you'll bounce the moment something comes along that pays better. Who the fuck wants to train someone who'll bolt at the first opportunity?
The solution a lot of you keep parroting is the "make college free". Yeah.. that'll help with the saturation.. If you people had taken any economics classes, you'd know that would have the exact opposite effect. You mouth-breathers want to dump even more degreed people on the market and then what? You don't think wages will drop even further for those fields? I mean, for fuck's sake, if you have 1000 applicants (all with Bachelor's degrees) applying for XYZ job, do you think any company is going to offer top dollar? They're all qualified... so how do you reduce the demand? You reduce the wage you are offering..
You find that happy (and natural) balance between wage offered and qualified applicant who will accept said wage. Consensual...
You lefties always going on with your "what two consenting adults do in the bedroom", but you sure change your tune when it's "two consenting adults in the boardroom".
Fucking hypocrites....
And I can't believe I have to say this on a science forum...
The funding got cut. Congress responded (to the crisis they created) by guaranteeing bank loans, which lead to lots of loans (since it was a can't lose proposition). Students Then borrowed the money because a college degree is Necessary to do the job.
bR> Jeez, it's like I'm talking to a wall here.
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Two years attention graduating CS, I imagine you had a job making decent money, or could have a job making decent money. You likely also had some debt payments to make at that point (though not necessarily). In that situation most people would start a flooring installation business and leave their job. What happened?
What have you the courage or desperation to strike out on your own, leaving CS behind? Did you start that as a side gig until it started to make decent money, then quit your day job? I'm curious how that first year went, the transition, how and why you did it.
That should be:
Two years after graduating CS, ...
In that situation most people wouldn't start a flooring installation business
Two mistakes in your basic premises ruin every other argument you try to make.
First - No, colleges were NOT always this expensive. Over the past 20 years, public school tuition and fees have increased 237%. During that same time, inflation only accounted for 50%.
Second, public universities DO set their own tuition, fees, and costs - in every state. The state government can influence these decisions, by offering more state funding in exchange for no tuition hikes, but in no state does the government have 100% control. Take California - The UC system just agreed to stall a 10-year tuition hike plan because the state government agreed to increase funding. But the state did not force the university system to delay the hike; they just bribed them.
Finally, you accusation of funding cuts of false. In the past 20 years, since 1997, public colleges never received more than about 25% of their funding from state governments on average. That's dropped, to 21%. In the meantime, Federal funding has more than doubled, now accounting for 23% of public school funding.
Curiously, the Federal funds doubling in those 20 years (those same Clinton and Bush years) also led to annual tuition increases of 8% or even 10% by those same public schools! Almost as if the amount of funding didn't have much connection with the desire for more money...
I have a bachelor's and master's in business administration. I had to go to trade school for HVAC because I kept getting turned down for being either over- or under-qualified for every job to which I applied and wasn't outright ignored.
HVAC especially, there's no one in the pipe. Our 50-something guys at my company are talking about how few people are behind them. No one wants to do it anymore. There's absolutely superb job security. If you can even half-ass fix a residential furnace or A/C and aren't a thief or treat a customer like total shit to their face, you'll never get fired. Pay scales with experience and job-hopping is easier than I'd imagine other industries are.
the problem. College was _always_ this expensive. We haven't done anything radical to colleges.
The Diversity Staff at the University of Michigan Is Nearly 100 Full-Time Employees
I doubt it was "always like that". In fact, tuition fees drastically rose recently:
“According to the Department of Education data, administrative positions at colleges and universities grew by 60 percent between 1993 and 2009, which Bloomberg reported was 10 times the rate of growth of tenured faculty positions.
Even more strikingly, an analysis by a professor at California Polytechnic University, Pomona, found that, while the total number of full-time faculty members in the C.S.U. system grew from 11,614 to 12,019 between 1975 and 2008, the total number of administrators grew from 3,800 to 12,183 — a 221 percent increase.”
Thanks, that's interesting. I'm glad you're doing well doing something you enjoy.
As you get older or whatever if you want/need a career that is less physically demanding, and you don't want to manage a company doing flooring, remember WGU is pretty liberal with transfer credit and only $4,500/year - no debt. So you ALSO have the option any time of having a degree without debt and without starting over.
Of course you may be able to retire while your body is still going strong if you make $100K and live on $50K, investing $50K / year. Assuming average long-term returns, you only have to do that for about 12 years to retire with over $1 million.
The fight between capital and labor is over. Capital won. Communism is dead. Marx failed. This is the new era of rentier and debt slaves.
Please give a [mandatory] round of applause to your new masters. No matter how hard you work, you will never move out of your class. Every interest payment goes into the pockets of our glorious patriotic oligarchy. Every tax dollar eventually funnels into privatized business interests that offer half the service at twice the price!
Our new God is Money. And failure to worship is treason!