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Mercedes Unveils First Tesla Rival In $12 Billion Attack (bloomberg.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: Mercedes-Benz, the world's largest maker of luxury cars, is rolling out its first in a series of battery-powered models, adding to a growing array of high-end brands targeting Tesla. The Mercedes EQC crossover starts production in the first half of next year, part of a plan to develop its EQ electric line, Daimler AG Chief Executive Officer Dieter Zetsche told reporters in Stockholm at the car's world premiere. The company intended to invest $12 billion on the electric-car push, but the spending has become "more than that," he said Tuesday, without specifying figures. "There is no alternative to betting on electric cars, and we're going all in," Zetsche said. "It is starting right now." The new EQC -- roughly the size of the brand's popular GLC SUV -- features a range of more than 280 miles and accelerates to 62 mph in as little as 5.1 seconds. The Model X has a range of 237 miles. Daimler doesn't plan to establish a dedicated electric assembly plant and will instead build the vehicles at the same sites as conventional automobiles to be able to better adjust output, Zetsche said, adding that he expects demand to mainly eat into sales of combustion cars rather than lure new customers.
Oh lord, won’t you buy me an electric Benz, My friends all drive diesels I must make amends
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
5.1 seconds seems substantially slower than any model Tesla.
Are they making a car to compete against Tesla, or the Volt?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If Mercedes is really going to sell electric cars, Tesla will have completion in their niche market, which means Tesla is more rapidly running out of runway. Now they have price competition and less of a differentiator for their products. Their margin for error was always pretty small, but this will only make it smaller.
I think Musk sees this coming, which explains his erratic behavior of late as CEO of Tesla. I hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like he's taking the stress very well.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
from the ./ summary:
The Model X has a range of 237 miles.
from wikipedia
The Tesla Model X 100D has an official EPA rated range of up to 295 mi (475 km).
So the summary incorrectly states that the Mercedes EQC has a greater range (280 miles) than the Tesla Model X, when in fact the Mercedes has the lesser range.
There are different standards for measurement for electrical vehicle range, so it's not clear if the figures are comparable. Nonetheless, the value given appears either outdated or otherwise in error.
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Tesla will be as AMD, while Mercedes will be as Intel.
Still a good thing for consumers.
Game over
Ah, not so fast. Where I don't think this is great news for Tesla, and I agree Tesla has been spinning it's wheels getting manufacturing up to speed, They are far from done. They are rapidly running out of maneuvering room as the majors start to take Tesla seriously enough to market similarly equipped all electrics at similar price points, so they need to get that factory running, w/o any more delays or they will be done. BUT they are not done.
I give Tesla less than a 50% chance of making it long term and I'm worried about how Musk is acting right now. Their problems are stacking up and we are still in the mode where the pile is getting higher as they move forward, but if they can start working the issues faster than they find them, there is still a chance.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
If they use Telsa's supercharger network that's great news for Tesla.
But if they and other manufacturers decide to share their own standard for charging stations (open or otherwise) then Tesla might be in major trouble.
I stole this Sig
BMW says they are selling a new car, basically 6 to 9 months from now, big deal. Tesla always had competition, but never really good competition. The two I think of off the top of my head are the Leaf and the Volt. I know there is more but I am too lazy to list all of them. It is enough to say that right now, it is not a one company market and right now Tesla is controlling it.
Mercedes all said they are just getting start and aren't dedicating a factory because they don't want to over-commit to the market. They are procrastinating other manufacturers and let Tesla own a large market. If they were confident they could sell a large number of their cars they would be preparing long term instead of basically doing a limited production line.
When Tesla is able to actually meet market demand (they don't need a reservation list) what do you think people are going to buy Mercedes or Tesla? That will be interesting but it will be at least another 2 or 3 years before that happens.
The do know how to build a lot of cars, though...
There is no alternative to betting on electric cars
While I tend to be favorable to electric cars (with some caution: where does the electricity comes from?), the "There Is No Alternative" mantra still lit a red light for me.
they will however be able to design an interior that doesn't look like it was designed by a child
love is just extroverted narcissism
Some folks are working on some type of thin film solution for batteries. Interesting thing is these batteries are made using materials that are abundant. Charging batteries in a short amount of time is a major deal breaker. Rules for car manufacturing are known. So all that needs to be done is addressing the issue of designing a 3D Printer that can build the car. This is not a trivial challenge.
Mercedes isn't the paragon of virtue quality wise. They have their own quality issues. My brother is a Mercedes dealer mechanic (among the top 10% in the nation) and he told me that there are a number of models he'd never recommend anybody buy. Their SUV initially had some serious quality issues with the electronics packages and once they fall out of warranty, few folks keep them due to their huge maintenance costs, so they get junked pretty quick.
But you do make a valid point. Tesla needs to get that factory working and stop messing around. They don't have time to mess with any new features, but need to start pushing out cars at a profit. They have to make good and start recouping their investors' money.
Long term, Tesla will face a serious issue with their build costs. That's where the majors will clean their clocks. They know how to run the supply chain, drive costs down on volume and build cars accurately and quickly. Tesla will struggle there too. Their margin for error is very small.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Nah, Mercedes isn't a one shot wonder.
If Mercedes is really going to sell electric cars, Tesla will have completion in their niche market, which means Tesla is more rapidly running out of runway. Now they have price competition and less of a differentiator for their products. Their margin for error was always pretty small, but this will only make it smaller.
I think Musk sees this coming, which explains his erratic behavior of late as CEO of Tesla. I hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like he's taking the stress very well.
Seems like Goldman Sachs agrees. They have stock rates as a sell and think it will drop to $210. Bad news for those hoping they'd recover to the $360 convertible debt strike price by February. With production numbers falling behind recent targets, it is hard to see how the stock can be lifted that much in the next 6 months. With competition coming in their high end niche, and with the apparent struggles to find a way to be profitable off of something in the mid priced range, they have some tough challenges ahead.
Tesla failed to meet production goals again. And musk will soon be getting ass raped in prison for securities fraud.
It was the Ambien and the SEC doesn't send you to the maximum security part of the system where such things happen. Especially in this case. Musk broke the rules by talking when he should have kept quiet. If he didn't tip somebody to what he was going to say and didn't make a personal profit on this, the SEC isn't going to toss him in the pokey. He was just shooting off his mouth in public, about stuff he should have kept quiet about, you don't go to jail for that. They may fine Tesla and/or Musk for his stupid talking out of turn and not though official channels, but I don't think they will go past that.
Unless he tried to lie to the SEC about it or cover it up, he's going to get a fine at most.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
LOL.
Tesla is blowing the doors off all other car makers, according to Munuro.
And it is the 'sleeping giants' that are being schooled.
Sadly, I predict that in another 2-3 years that many, if not most, of them will be begging for gov money.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Actually the 280 range of the EQC is apparently not an EPA standard measurement, so it is not even comparable. The 100D you mention is the "high end" for the tesla, but even the 75D model X has 237 miles or range, when the EQC might not have much more than 200: https://jalopnik.com/the-2020-...
It seems that their range was too short, so they sort of fudged the numbers a bit to make it sound better? Not sure what this NEDC measurement is, but it apparently gives the Tesla Model X 100D a 351 range!
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
I currently own 2 merceders a C200 and an E220D. One of my best mates owns a Tesla S.
The Tesla is really nice. And goes incredibly quick. But for me it doesn't tick the right boxes for me to spend that amount of money on.
I totally get that it is personal taste, but I'm not a fan of the interior of the tesla. It doesn't feel as nice as my E. And while the tesla wieghs more than my E it doesn't have the same solid feel inside. Stupid example is the sound the doors make when you close them. Also, once you get over the geeky "thats so cool" response to the massive screen in the tesla I'm not a fan of it.
Acceleration isn't a thing for me. Cars have never really been about performance, I have motorcycles for that.
One thing that my mate owning a tesla has done is totally remove any range concern about owning an electric I might have had. Sure my E will do over 1000km on a tank. But his tesla has a full tank every morning. The 30km each way commute to the city just isn't a cause for concern. Also our state govt has built a network of charging stations along the primary highway network.
For me an electric car in the same category as the Mercedes E class would be hugely compelling.
For one thing, I wasn't making a play on words. I meant 'lead' as in ahead. As in, I don't want to worry about where I spend a half-hour of my time every 300 miles. For another thing, I was very young when the unleaded switch happened, but I don't remember many problems and I definitely remember a lot more gas stations.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
The actual range (by US standards) is "up to 200 miles." While I think range is over-emphasized with electric cars, that is in fact worse than the X.
It seems to be an electricized version of the GLC, which is a tiny SUV (well, I couldn't fit in one) selling for $40K. The EQC is going to cost twice as much as the GLC, in which case what's the point? Electric cars drive better and cost less to run/maintain, but doubling the cost is too much. It's also within striking range of the price of a Model X, which is a larger and better car.
It's not coming out for two more years, by which time Tesla (and surely a few other companies) will probably have compact SUVs that are better for cheaper.
In short, this car seems like a massive disappointment. Between the etron, the EQC, and the iX3, the German car companies are flopping electric cars and flopping them hard. They're all just over-priced re-workings of compact SUVs selling, to be sold for just $10K less than the clearly superior Tesla X.
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I'm not sure that cars were ever really the focus. I don't think Musk wants to be Henry Ford. He wants to be John D. Rockefeller.
Anyhow, no giants have been sleeping. The time hasn't been right for them, and now they're probably moving a little faster because the right time would be too late.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Is that the gimpy old dude in Fukuoka who can no longer grab a recessed door handle and does "tear downs" of cars and sells the report of what he finds for a lot of money?
several class action lawsuits
Those things take years. Tesla will either be very profitable by then, or sold to a competitor. It won't make a difference either way.
The only people who scream about cutting CO2 are the ones like you. The very same people who continue per person to emit much more than either Europe or China.
Gas stations can just add a charging station or two. Which is a lot cheaper than what Tesla has done.
And how is a 60k+ Mercedes owner going to feel when both spots are filled or (more likely) one or more is broken because they are a side addition to the gas station?
Mixing charging stations into gas stations is a terrible idea because it will serve no-one well at all. Because even rapid charging takes quite a lot longer than a gas tank refill you need way more charging stations than you would pumps, not just one or two - even Tesla owners today run into waits at supercharger stations.
There is no getting around the need to build all new high end charging facilities, especially if you are producing a luxury car. A luxury electric car means charging becomes part of the experience you have to deliver on, since the customer cannot do much themselves beyond very slow wall socket charging.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The breaking is regenerative. If you want to stop fast you need motors that can absorb energy. Breaking at 100km/h (62 mph) will give you far more energy than accelerating from zero. So any electric car that can do decent regenerative breaking at speeds above 100km/h is going to be able to do the reverse and accelerate from 0 to 100 in 5~6 seconds. The 5~6 seconds is really the coefficient of friction of the tires with the road limiting the acceleration.
Currently, yes. However, I am thinking back to when when AMD dragged the x86 processor vendors kicking and screaming to 64-bit architectures. Likewise, Tesla is now dragging car makers to electric.
I think the big car makers are now going to adopt electric, and they are going to catch Tesla. Only time will tell if Tesla can stay ahead. I wish them well, though.
While it would be nice to be able to upgrade to fully autonomous, no Tesla currently produced is every going to be upgraded to fully autonomous, so that's somewhat of a red herring. Sure, I know they're selling it as such, but it's just another in an extremely long line of flat out lies from their marketing team. It is extremely include that they do not have the appropriate sensors to do full autonomy. No amount of software can fix their lack of sensors. These cars can't even properly so blind spot monitoring, and people think they'll be able to drive themselves?
Tesla had one chance to pull through, and it was to replace the loudmouth with a real manager with auto experience years ago, before they spent a fortune building a non-working "automated factory" that they had to write off and rebuild. Oh, and before Musk spent untold billions on bailing out his other fad business instead on making cars.
Too late now, the company has no credibility, no obvious advantage, a mountain of debt, and production numbers that don't indicate it will be able to service it. Those longs who sold at $320 were the lucky ones, Switzerland announcement or no Switzerland announcement.
what's with the fake grille - was that really necessary?
Presumably it is a skeuomorph.
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Long term, Tesla will face a serious issue with their build costs. That's where the majors will clean their clocks. They know how to run the supply chain, drive costs down on volume and build cars accurately and quickly. Tesla will struggle there too. Their margin for error is very small.
On the other hand, Tesla built their own battery factory, and they get all the batteries they need at the lowest possible cost. Battery cost is a huge chunk of the cost of an EV.
The Chevy Bolt is believed to sell at a $9000 loss per car; EV credits make up the difference. Chevy doesn't have a battery factory.
So will the new Mercedes EV be a low-volume car like the Bolt, profitable mainly due to EV credits? For it to really hurt Tesla, Mercedes would have to be able to undercut Tesla on cost while still being profitable. This seems unlikely to me.
Also, it appears that Tesla has smoothed out the problems with the Model 3 factory. I expect them now to build one, or even two, additional factories (first one in China, second one in Europe) to make batteries and cars. If Tesla gets three factories going, building 5000 cars per week at each factory, and making USD$10000 per car... that would be quite a revenue stream. And Tesla can get there faster than Mercedes or any other legacy car maker can.
Tesla could have been strangled in its crib when it was a baby. I think it's too late now and Tesla is going to be huge.
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
you can go 300 miles without a bladder break? You have to change the way you approach "filling up" with EVs. You never let it go to 0 and then charge to 100%. Just plug it in during your bladder/tea breaks so you car is doing something useful rather than sitting in a car park doing nothing.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
The main issues for Tesla now are price and quality. The Model X is an impressive car, but they can't build them consistently. I've never seen one that didn't have poor door alignment or ridiculous panel gaps. Not to mention the amount of service centre visits people are having to make.
For that reason alone the Jaguar iPace and this new Mercedes will be popular with people who want a car built to a high standard. With those brands you know it's going to be perfect, and they won't tell you "sorry 10mm misalignment of the door trim is normal".
The price problem is at the lower end. The Model 3 was supposed to be affordable at $35,000, but they have been beaten to that market segment by Hyundai and Kia, and very soon Nissan. They all make cheaper long range EVs with a higher spec than the base Model 3 will have when it eventually launches. Range in particular is a big deal because the $35k version has a 40% smaller battery than those other cars and yet costs more.
I don't think that's a big issue right now for Tesla, they will just keep serving the $50-70k market, but in the longer term their plan seems to be to go for the super high volume affordable end.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The other big quality issue with Tesla that rarely gets mentioned is beta software.
Because they can do OTA updates they release cars half finished and promise to release basic features later, but then never do. It's as bad as game developers.
For example, take speed sensitive volume control. Very basic feature that has been standard on car stereos for what, 20 years now? Tesla promised it years ago, even got as far as making the check box for it visible but it didn't work properly, and last time I checked that box had gone away again.
And now other manufacturers are getting the same idea. The Jaguar iPace launched with unfinished software and all the fanboys are complaining about early reviews that didn't wait for the promised big update that will fix everything.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Mercedes all said they are just getting start and aren't dedicating a factory because they don't want to over-commit to the market.
They aren't dedicating a factory because they don't need to. They've got an assembly line that's flexible enough to produce two very different vehicles in an arbitrary ratio. This is a superior solution to a dedicated production line.
And they can roll out this flexibility to other assembly lines when those are tooled up for new vehicles, so in a few years they'll be able to do half their total production as EVs. Make no mistake, Mercedes may just be getting started, but this won't be a tentative, small-scale effort. A $12B investment is huge.
Citation
The vehicle will be produced on the same line as the company's C-Class Saloon and Estate, GLC and GLC Coupe. ...
"Our decision to produce electric vehicles on the same line as models with combustion engines enables us to respond flexibly to demand and use plant capacity to best effect.
In case you don't realize, the GLC and C-class are related, but rather different vehicles (completely different body, lots of commonality internally). The $12B figure is from TFA.
All companies fail if you wait long enough. Looking at the bigger picture, I see Tesla as the initiator that shakes up the car industry. It forces others to action by showing it is possible.
Now the others can't say "But that kind of range is not possible with batteries." because the whole world will say "Bullshit!"
And you know that car companies would do that, as they have done it in the past.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Tesla will likely end up on the ash heap of history with Delorian. But there is a chance they make it on their own, a very slim chance. But the odds where always stacked this way for Tesla. My guess is that they won't make it, but it's going to be fun to watch them try. It won't all be a waste, Tesla has advanced the state of the art in ways the majors couldn't and I'm going to bet that whomever snaps them up as they die will get a treasure trove of new things.
My guess is Tesla gets purchased by one of the majors, or hits bankruptcy and pieces get purchased by many of the majors. In the end, Tesla will have advanced the state of the art greatly, and the brand name will live on, but the company will not exist anymore. But that's how the odds where stacked when this whole idea got started.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
A lot of people get confused over this. Back in the 1990's (maybe 80's..), Mercedes Benz was the benchmark for reliability and technology. They made airbags and ABS popular and everyone kept an eye on the S-Class because it was their launchpad for ground breaking technology that would later work it's way down into their cheaper models.
Their diesel engines were especially renowned for longevity and practically every model was over-engineered. Fast forward a decade and they started cutting costs where it matters (engineering, manufacturing, materials). Where they previously used steel or aluminium, they now use plastic. Their doors previously shut like a bank vault, now they sound tinny and hollow. A Mercedes was supposed to last you 10 years+. Now you're lucky if you get 4 before something major breaks.
MB still relies on the myth of their 'hewn from granite' motto from the 80's/90's but that's not been true for a long, long time. I wouldn't trust an EV Mercedes, especially one using an existing platform and just made to be EV at all
Kinda weird that you keep posting the same thing every time Tesla is bought up. I count at least 3 different threads where you've said pretty much the same thing. Almost as if you had an agenda..
Didn't Elon say his goal was to push other car manufacturers to also build electric cars? I bet from his point of view, Mercedes aren't attacking Tesla, they're joining them.
#DeleteFacebook
Yeah, just like that Internet thing.
#DeleteFacebook
What is the margin on wholesale batteries, and what proportion of cost? Owning a battery factory might be a 1% saving on overall vost or 10%.
And Tesla can get there faster than Mercedes or any other legacy car maker can.
The majors have a lot of revenue to throw at it, so it's not a given. And a lot od car building experience. If push came to shove my money would be on the majors. VW just absorbed a huge fine and barely blinked, that's how much power the majors have.
I was very young when the unleaded switch happened, but I don't remember....
yeah, mental issues are one of the side effects of lead poisoning.....
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
I'm not sure what the margin is, but I found a recent article on how much it costs Tesla: about $100 per kWh for cells, and "within two years" they hope to be under $100 per kWh for finished battery packs.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09/100-kwh-tesla-battery-cells-this-year-100-kwh-tesla-battery-packs-in-2020/
I also found a 2017 article where Audi claims to be paying around 100 Euros (about $114) for one kWh of battery cells. This is a much lower price than I expected. And, a year ago? How is Audi doing that?
https://electrek.co/2017/06/28/audi-electric-car-battery-cost/
The majors have a lot of revenue to throw at it
Yeah, but the majors may find that there isn't enough capacity on the market to make mass quantities of battery cells. Tesla's GigaFactory now makes over half of all EV battery cells, and only Tesla gets those.
I think Audi is planning to sell in Model S quantities, not Model 3 quantities.
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
A Tesla is about 75kwH or thereabouts, so Audi's batteries (assuming the same approximate capacity) add an additional $1000 to costs. So assuming $50k retail, it's maybe $30,000 to build (retail being 30k, plus manufacturer's profit, transport cost, dealer's profit), so $1000 is 3%. It's within my really handwavy estimate :). 3% isn't a huge margin for Tesla to have over Audi.
I never said they where doomed, only that they where out of time and room for error. Everything must go right for them now. No more mistakes or missteps can be made.
Promises have been made in the past which have not been kept. Tesla needs to start keeping promises, the factory simply has to start turning out cars at a profit. So far, standing up the factory has been taking longer and costing more than expected with production well under target. But getting production on track will NOT be enough to ensure their success.
Tesla is now starting to face competition in their luxury market space from the Majors. If they prove there is money to be made there, you can bet the majors will jump into the space. I hear that Tesla's has little room to lower prices, because their build costs are high, so the majors can sink them on cost to price if they want to. If there is money to be made, you can bet they will try to sink Tesla and Tesla will be powerless to resist. If that happens, bankruptcy and selling off parts of the company will be forced. If there isn't enough money in the space to interest the majors, Tesla will face starvation if they are too big to be sustained by the cars they can sell.
So, Tesla may make it, but the odds are stacked to make this unlikely. The road to success is very narrow now. There are a million ways they fail, and only a handful where they succeed.
IF they fail, the majors will just buy up the technology from the creditors for pennies on the dollar.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
The majors can out spend them and out design and build them in short order. Tesla needs more production cost reductions or some kind of differentiator that can translate in to profits. Wiz Bang features are nice, but expensive.
The problem for Tesla is the majors can afford to pound them if there is money to be made in Tesla's market. So if Tesla makes too much, they are going to get attacked, if they don't make enough, they will wither and die. The range for success is very narrow.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
You are talking about Sandy Munro of Bloomfield Hills, MI.
I, along with the person I was responding to, are talking about Sayonara Munuro, City of Fukuoko, Fukuoko Prefecture, Japan.
Tesla knows very well they will die if they leave the luxury market. What separates them from all the other EV vendors is the endless hype, controversy, publicity stunts, and (dare I say it) whining. If they made normal cars, then good ol' economic reality rears its ugly head.
Personally, I think this is the real reason the Model 3 is selling for almost double the price they promised, and they're only working on pricier, more luxurious versions before they get cheaper. It was never meant to be a mainstream car.
Thanks AC. I'm not quite sure how you figure me as a shill since I have no shares, financial interest, or products of Tesla or any other company Musk is involved with. I like what Tesla is doing in terms of their products and I guess I am very much in favour of EVs. If that alone makes me a shill, I guess we need to update the definition!
Also, I do kinda like how Elon talks in interviews. It's refreshing. Sure, he says some unconventional stuff and, as a CEO, he really shouldn't be doing drugs and tweeting (is that true? I dunno) but on the whole, I'd rather listen to him talk rather than Jeff Bezos or some other CEO of Ford, GM etc.