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Software Developers Are Now More Valuable To Companies Than Money, Says Survey (cnbc.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from CNBC: As our global economy increasingly comes to run on technology-enabled rails and every company becomes a tech company, demand for high-quality software engineers is at an all-time high. A recent study from Stripe and Harris Poll found that 61 percent of C-suite executives believe access to developer talent is a threat to the success of their business. Perhaps more surprisingly -- as we mark a decade after the financial crisis -- this threat was even ranked above capital constraints. And yet, despite being many corporations' most precious resource, developer talents are all too often squandered. Collectively, companies today lose upward of $300 billion a year paying down "technical debt," as developers pour time into maintaining legacy systems or dealing with the ramifications of bad software. This is especially worrisome, given the outsized impact developers have on companies' chances of success. Software developers don't have a monopoly on good ideas, but their skill set makes them a uniquely deep source of innovation, productivity and new economic connections. When deployed correctly, developers can be economic multipliers -- coefficients that dramatically ratchet up the output of the teams and companies of which they're a part.

96 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. So why not treat them well? by gweihir · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Naa, that would be un-capitalist. Developers must be cheap wage-slaves that do not have a real career-path and are unable to find a job once they hit 50. That will surely not have any impact on whether smart people go into software writing or not, right?

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re: So why not treat them well? by Dannis12345 · · Score: 1

      This is really true. As the fact that the IT leads the world.

    2. Re:So why not treat them well? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't understand this. I am 44, have been doing software development since college. I am already a millionaire (if you include my 401k savings), and am on track to be a multi-millionaire when I retire. I have never worked an 80 hour week, and only had a few 60 hours and one 70 hour week in my entire career.

      It helps that I never married or had kids, and invested wisely. But even so, I hear these horror stories about how software developers are treated and I just have not seen it.

      The city I live in is a tech hub, not a middle-of-nowhere city with no tech jobs. Maybe more people just need to move here.

    3. Re:So why not treat them well? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But even so, I hear these horror stories about how software developers are treated and I just have not seen it.

      Me neither. I have worked for companies that had catered meals, free soda, laundry service, sky diving bonding trips, etc. I have had plenty of opportunities to travel. I have worked some late nights, and done a few death marches, but those only lasted a few weeks, out of a career lasting decades.

      Software developers are likely the most spoiled employees in the history of the world.

      People will alway whine.

    4. Re:So why not treat them well? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      People will alway whine.

      And there you are wrong. I have a pretty good career myself. But I see how many coders are treated and I am not surprised at all that there are by far not enough good ones.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    5. Re: So why not treat them well? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Dude, I will hit 60 next week, and have never had trouble finding an IT job. The market will dictate that valuable people get paid. I know a lot of guys that retire to part time programming, and make more than they did under salary. Just a matter of the will to keep your skills sharp.

    6. Re:So why not treat them well? by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      As much as I'm for better treatment and perks for coders, the issue of "not enough good ones" isn't because of that. There's only so many smart people, dumb people and mediocre people don't make good coders. Some of the above-average ones might make the cut as maintenance coders or some incredibly soul-crushing AGILE environment where they don't actually have to think, but for the most part any programming position of note requires a 150+ IQ to do even moderately well.

    7. Re:So why not treat them well? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      How many 3+ standard deviation people are we supposed to believe you know?

      Same crit as you gave the GP. I doubt you know even one.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:So why not treat them well? by spagthorpe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It won't really have any impact, because young people don't think they'll ever get old. Or it will be different for them.

      Had a 20-something at my last job make a number of comments about some of the older developers there, saying they'd hate to still be working at that age, and that they are probably stuck doing the same work because they can't learn anything new. I don't know why he was telling me this, as I was twice his age at the time, but it's obvious that he doesn't think he'll be in the same position.

      They ultimately did lay off a lot of their senior engineers and replace a lot of the position with 20-somethings, including in project management positions. A number of those projects never saw the light of day after years of re-writes into new frameworks.

      --

      WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
      (Smash amp, burn guitar, take home the groupies)

    9. Re:So why not treat them well? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      The issue is very much that a lot of the few people that could be good at it, see the working conditions and career options and go somewhere else. Also, 150+IQ people basically do not exist. I gather this is some wired non-standard US scale...

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    10. Re:So why not treat them well? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 3, Informative

      Having a measured IQ >150, I can tell you with my excellent two-minute Googling skills there are approximately 300K in the U.S. if you're using the Stanford-Binet scale. For the Wechsler scale, it's more like 140K, which is still a lot of people. Heck, the Prometheus Society's cut-off for membership is 160+. I guess to you, they basically don't exist...

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    11. Re:So why not treat them well? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      ... see the working conditions and career options and go somewhere else.

      Where do they go?

      Doctors, lawyers and investment bankers work longer hours than programmers. Nearly everyone else makes less money.

      Maybe they become underwater welders?

    12. Re:So why not treat them well? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The *only* reason companies are presently treating developers well is because there are not nearly enough good ones to fill the need.

      Look, by contrast, at how badly developers are treated specifically at video-game making companies. Everything that people complain about is true there. Ridiculous hours, low pay, shitty office space, etc. The companies get away with that because most young developers want to do that, so the supply is high enough for them to get away with it.

      And that is exactly what happens every time, at every job, everywhere in the world: employers treat employees exactly as badly as they can get away with.

      During the period after 2000, when the .com bubble popped, employers treated programmers like utter shit. That was because there was a temporary oversupply. That situation corrected itself, and things are a bit better now (except in games development). But should demand drop and/or supply spike, you can bet your bottom dollar that nightmarish abuses will roll right back in.

    13. Re:So why not treat them well? by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd actually love to see a study into this -- how do you walk the fine line of broadening your toolset versus reeling in over-excitable young devs, without seeming like "that old guy who doesn't like to learn new things"?

    14. Re:So why not treat them well? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      I have worked for companies that had catered meals, free soda, laundry service, sky diving bonding trips, etc

      Me too, during the internet bubble, but not in the last ~15 years...have you? I get free coffee and oxygen though.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    15. Re:So why not treat them well? by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      There is more than one IQ scale...you can wiki it. Oh, and they do exist.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    16. Re:So why not treat them well? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      This seems to vary a lot by country. The UK has low wages too, but Ireland pays a decent amount. Lots of EU immigrant workers in Ireland too.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    17. Re:So why not treat them well? by jebrick · · Score: 2

      People will alway whine.

      And there you are wrong. I have a pretty good career myself. But I see how many coders are treated and I am not surprised at all that there are by far not enough good ones.

      I think it depends on the company. I've worked for an established startup that still expected 70+ hours per week of it's coders. The company had all the things you expect for the startup. Free snacks. Break room with gaming consoles, ect. They were most happy with unmarried coders right out of college. If you were married you had better not have kids. If you are married and have kids your wife had better not work. Basically, anything that would take away their coding time is not a good employee. They had a 25-30% turnover but did get bought by a much bigger fish.

      I now work for a company that, while paying slightly less than market, allows for work-life balance.

    18. Re:So why not treat them well? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Did I miss something? Why does software developing require 150+ IQ?

      Most development work can be done by competent craftspeople that are well trained, and somewhat smarter than average.

      Having gone to a major technical institution, that contained many very high IQ individuals, I can attest that the most effective programmers are not always the smartest.

    19. Re:So why not treat them well? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I completely agree with your retort to the 150+ IQ comment. Not all high IQ individuals even make good employees, or programmers. My family has several very high IQ individuals, and mostly it was wasted for one reason or another.

      Good programming takes above average intelligence, desire, good training, hard work, and a keen understanding of Murphy's law. Higher intelligence can help if the other ingredients are there, but I have seen some really shitty programmers with high IQ's.

    20. Re: So why not treat them well? by man2525 · · Score: 1

      If theyâ(TM)re mentored well, maybe. However, I have worked with several managers who had a crippling fear of high IQ people, and would let them rot. Iâ(TM)m going to go out on a limb and guess 115 is probably enough, with 110 being enough for Ops. An engineering mindset and attitude are probably more important. Empathy helps other be more productive as well.

    21. Re:So why not treat them well? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 2

      And actually, that leads to a way to get even cheaper software developers: Hire ones over 50 to do the legacy technical debt stuff.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    22. Re:So why not treat them well? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      This is slashdot, kind of like Lake Woebegone. All are above average here.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    23. Re:So why not treat them well? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      So now YOUR a 3+ standard deviation person? Bullshit on you!

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    24. Re: So why not treat them well? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      real estate

      3 out of 4 real estate agents quit or go inactive within two years of starting. Reason: they are making way less money than they expected.

      I have a real estate license. I do an occasional transaction for friends and family, but am otherwise inactive.

      All have better hours and WAY better pay.

      Absolute hogwash.

    25. Re:So why not treat them well? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      As I said, "wired non-standard US scale". It is basically designed to sell IQ tests and you fell fro the scam. The standard scale goes from 50 to 150 and loses accuracy drastically at something like 135.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    26. Re:So why not treat them well? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      From wikipedia:

      The most commonly used individual IQ test series is the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale for adults and the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children for school-age test-takers. Other commonly used individual IQ tests (some of which do not label their standard scores as "IQ" scores) include the current versions of the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scales, Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities, the Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children, the Cognitive Assessment System, and the Differential Ability Scales.

      and

      American psychologist Lewis Terman at Stanford University revised the Binet-Simon scale, which resulted in the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scales (1916). It became the most popular test in the United States for decades.

      and

      The Stanford-Binet has also been revised several times and is now similar to the Wechsler in several aspects, but the Wechsler continues to be the most popular test in the United States.

      Besides the Wechsler and Standford-Binet tests which I mentioned in my comment, which test are you claiming as being used so much more in the US to be the "standard" which also has your much lower scale?

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    27. Re:So why not treat them well? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Programming doesn't require 150+ IQ. Maybe 115 for an average programmer. An average CS student is in the 120-125 range. I suggest addressing your question as a reply to the comment which said it requires 150+ IQ to find out why he thinks that.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    28. Re:So why not treat them well? by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      Also, 150+IQ people basically do not exist. I gather this is some wired non-standard US scale...

      All the smart people moving to and living in the US doesn't make it a non-standard scale.

    29. Re:So why not treat them well? by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      The thing about things which are real is that you don't have to select for them explicitly for them to be in effect.

    30. Re: So why not treat them well? by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      I seriously doubt there's anyone under 120 doing more than Wordpress, ops tends to be best around 125, business 135, middle management can likely do fine at 110.

    31. Re:So why not treat them well? by ananamouse · · Score: 1

      There is a sailboat meme where the question, "How long does it take the average person to become a sailor?" is retorted with, "The average person will never become a sailor."
      s/sailor/coder/

    32. Re: So why not treat them well? by tigersha · · Score: 1

      Free Oxygen? Do you work on Mars??

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
  2. And yet there's agile by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And open concept offices.

    1. Re:And yet there's agile by Seven+Spirals · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've quit one job and refused two others because of open offices. The two I refused were absolutely flabbergasted by my refusal. They literally could not understand why anyone wouldn't want to be in an open office space surrounded on 3.8 sides by glass-walled manager offices, loud ugly marketing girls, and a bunch of H1B dudes who couldn't be bothered to wear deodorant. That place (MX Logic) had the worst looking office I've ever seen. One of them offered me the job on the spot after the interview and I was already shutting them down and refusing it before they even got started. I told them there is about a zero percent chance of getting anyone really talented to take the gig, because they had this ridiculous noisy slave pit thing going. I nearly left before I even *did* the interview I was so disgusted with the place. The hiring manager was (of course) offended, but he was also clueless. About a year after that interview I had a guy come up to me at the local Maker Space who was one of the "technical resources" for the company during the interview (quiet guy in the back of the room). He told me "My god was I cheering when you refused them over the goddamn open workspace idiocy. My boss was upset over that for weeks. They still talk about it during the hiring process and argue about it."

    2. Re:And yet there's agile by Ocker3 · · Score: 2

      "But I can See everyone and I know that they're working" - Manager If someone doesn't know enough about their direct report's job that they don't know whether they're working or not without seeing them at their desk, there's a problem. Not all jobs are reduced in efficiency by a cubicle farm, but if your job is primarily about mental focus for the time-intensive tasks, then most people will benefit from having their own room. And the employer will probably benefit enough that an actual room is a worthwhile investment. Not everyone can have one of those fancy early-Pixar fancy houses in a big room (I'm pretty sure Pixar doesn't have them these days either), but a cubicle farm reduces focus and productivity.

    3. Re:And yet there's agile by Klaxton · · Score: 2

      It begs the question, why even apply there in the first place.

      So you could see their office environment tucked away behind the job description on the internet?

    4. Re:And yet there's agile by Klaxton · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've worked in the industry for many years, usually with a private office or shared with one person. Recently got a job in an agile "scrum" shop, which went to an open floorplan a few months later. Miserable experience on both counts. Every day you get a Jira work ticket for some "the user wants to see" granule of a thing that you had no part in designing. Zero privacy. It is amazingly de-motivating.

    5. Re:And yet there's agile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, it "raises" the question. Begging the question is a logical fallacy in which the conclusion is assumed as a premise.

      I know, I know, so many people have used it wrong that the wrong definition is now right. That, however, will not prevent me from pointing out that someone is wrong on the Internet.

    6. Re:And yet there's agile by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a real horror show. Safe to say you made the right move.

    7. Re:And yet there's agile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The enormity of that usage makes me nauseous.

    8. Re:And yet there's agile by smi.james.th · · Score: 1

      And me without mod points... Well said, sir!

      --
      One thing I know, and that is that I am ignorant...
    9. Re:And yet there's agile by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 2

      Sounds a bit like my previous job... Thou there the noise was mostly a system test rig with an old, not-currently-in-production-use, version of a system we were in the process of re-engineering running a stability test in case a customer wanted our system on site in an expedited manner running in the "engineer room" with me and 3 co-workers. I tried asking my boss, whose idea it was to have the old system running a 24/7 stability test and to have all the engineers in this room, if this was absolutely necessary and he insisted it was, but refused when I suggested we move it to his personal office or another office used as storage space (until a new marketing guy got hired and we had to empty it out for him).

      The really annoying thing about the test rig, generating a constant hum at about 68db, was that it turned out to be completely pointless as we were able to get the new system production ready by the time the next customer was ready for us to come on-site and install our equipment. The other 3 people weren't even that big of an issue as we all knew it was mostly to save space in a small office as we were running on a shoestring budget until we got external funding, which never came as our parent company had a few years prior been in charge of a pretty badly failed project and ruined it's reputation in the process.

      Thankfully after that employer went belly-up this spring I quickly found a new job where I have better pay and an actual office for myself (thou I had to put up with just a small corner for the first month until we moved to a larger office in the same building). I don't even have enough stuff in my office to fill even half of it and only put together a single shelf as I didn't even have enough stuff to fill that single shelf. Put in a 40" flat screen TV as a monitor for the small git server on the shelf and data visualization when I'm showing off my work to multiple co-workers just to make the room feel less empty (and find use for a TV that had lying in the corner after we emptied an unused office at a nearby site).

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    10. Re:And yet there's agile by DaFallus · · Score: 2

      Office layout and the bathrooms are honestly two of the most accurate indicators of how employees are treated that I've seen. If you interview at a place with a bathroom that looks like a place you're likely to be mugged or raped, or if the toilet paper is empty or so thin that you can see through it, run.

      --
      No one cares what your captcha was

      Houston TX, USA
    11. Re:And yet there's agile by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      For anyone not up to date on xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2039/

    12. Re:And yet there's agile by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      A cubicle farm with a decent pair of noise canceling headphones is head and shoulders over an open floorplan bullpen that everybody walking by can read your monitor.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    13. Re:And yet there's agile by Seven+Spirals · · Score: 1

      Nah, I just accepted a much better job that paid more and gave me an office, and I left the stinky foreigners and ugly women to sort it out on their own. Just FYI since you are hating I figured I'd give you more fuel for your SJW fire. Worst of all, I'm a white male! Oh, the humanity!

  3. Yeah, right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they considered developers more important than money, they'd pay the developers more to keep the skilled ones. Every time a developer leaves a company, a hunk of business knowledge walks out the door with him.

    Companies care about that quarter's finance report, and the C-level execs care only about fleecing the company for all they can stuff into their own pockets. Look at what they do, not what some survey says.

    1. Re:Yeah, right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      LOL. You've massively understated the ageism and the issue of job qualifications.

      First, the ageism problem is associated also with a problem that people aren't allowed to take breaks. After having great success even to the point of being a chief architect on an 80-man program, I quit working for a while and now can't find anyone who will let me start at the bottom.

      But, the job qualification thing is really ridiculous. A good software engineer is a specialist at picking up new domains, languages, frameworks, etc. That really is the job. While working in a major corporation, I would switch projects routinely with no problem. It rarely took more than a couple of weeks to come up to speed on the new group's tools and languages which were always different. To require knowledge specific to the project before entering the project is stupid.

    2. Re:Yeah, right by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Don't know where you live, but in most places I think developers are paid fairly well. We offer straight-out-of-school newbies $80-$90k, and still some turn us down for better offers.

      Most places are not the Bay Area or a few big US cities. In most of the world, new starter salaries in software development are rarely more than 1/3 of that level, and in many places they are much lower.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re:Yeah, right by Ocker3 · · Score: 1

      Your post is probably at zero rep because it was posted AC, but you make good points.

    4. Re:Yeah, right by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 1

      In my experience the kind ageism people talk about these days is mostly to do with people in their 50s and 60s, in the eyes of management at least, just not being worth the extra cost compared to younger workers. Saying that companies are getting rid of or refusing to hire people in those ages in favor of people straight out of college is a typical straw man anti-ageism advocates like to trumpet when in reality in their 30s and 40s are still pretty heavily in demand.

      You can see this demonstrated pretty well in how a lot of big companies like IBM have over the last few years ended up laying off a lot of older workers, only to immediately re-hire them as contractors to do the same job, except with lower pay and worse benefits. This clearly shows that they definitely want to retain their skills and knowledge, but not at the cost of their preexisting contract. It's also been well known for decades that learning new things gets harder and harder the older you get and this kicks in really heavily once people reach their 50s, which doesn't exactly bode well for older workers in a field where tools and techniques change as fast as they do in tech.

      In other words it's not really about ageism, but instead the fact that people in their 50s and 60s have priced themselves out of the field and the well known effects of aging not really being a good fit for a field that changes as fast as tech.

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    5. Re:Yeah, right by Altus · · Score: 2

      So in a discussion of an article that says that software engineering tallent is more valuable than money, your argument is that these people are too expensive?

      Seems to me that this wouldn't be possible if it weren't sufficiently pervasive, keeping wages down for older engineers, otherwise those IBM engineers would just go elsewhere rather than take shittier pay from IBM.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    6. Re:Yeah, right by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the article may in fact be just plain wrong? The whole age discrimination thing suggests just that and the direction this particular discussion is heading in is clearly one of the article just being plain wrong.

      As for the point I'm trying to make; Older engineers too expensive compared to younger engineers and I'm pretty sure we all know that there hasn't actually been a lack of actual engineers (i.e not H1B workers), particularly software ones, ever since the dot.com bubble burst.

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
  4. Re:Step one of the cure... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Microsoft owns javascript? You have things backwards.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  5. Yeah haven't heard that one before by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe it just sounds too much like 40 years of businesses claiming there was a shortage of engineers in the U.S. when what they meant was there was a shortage of engineers that could be treated really badly.

    Or maybe it's the fact that companies only seem to be willing to hire H1Bs that will do anything not to go back to their shitholes, or young kids who are stupid enough to believe managements promises and have no family or social life to distract from putting in 80+ hour weeks ?

    1. Re:Yeah haven't heard that one before by zlives · · Score: 1

      you misread, and i quote
      "developer talent is a threat to the success of their business" thus the hiring of no talent, spot filling h1b. and if they accidentally get a talented h1b... replace and repeat.

  6. FTFY by thevirtualcat · · Score: 4, Funny

    Software Developers Who Are Willing To Work For Uncompetitive Wages And No Benefits Are Now More Valuable To Companies Than Money, Says Survey

    1. Re:FTFY by Seven+Spirals · · Score: 1

      Fucking-A right. Period.

  7. .ORG by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This just tells me that developers need to get organized and start saying no to 80+ work weeks collectively. Otherwise it will be divided they fall, forever.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:.ORG by Ocker3 · · Score: 2

      How do we re-invent Unions without calling them Unions and avoid the very real baggage that the term has in the USA? Guilds?

    2. Re:.ORG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They're called Professional Associations.

      Actual professions like Law, Medicine, Accounting and Engineering have them. Not only are they "unions", but they have a set of standards that members much achieve in order to practise and they enforce a code of ethics that members must abide by.

    3. Re:.ORG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I suggest instead moving to co-ops and employee-owned companies.

      You can't really have an impasse between management and labor when management *is* labor!

    4. Re:.ORG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      80+ hours a week ?!! How do you even write functioning software after 40+ hours in a week ? When your brain is your tool and it is fatigued how can that work ?
      Better work 40 hours a week and write something proper, go home and refill your battery, enjoy life and be fresh the following day. 80+ hours is just 'making hours' not getting actual work done.

    5. Re:.ORG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      or.. you could learn to work smarter not harder. ;) That's why I get paid the big bucks and make it all look so easy.

    6. Re:.ORG by StormReaver · · Score: 2

      ...and start saying no to 80+ work weeks collectively.

      That only works when there aren't a hundred H1B's (or other non-USA-equivalent) from shithole countries waiting to take each job. If all non-shithole-country IS/IT worker joined the union and said no to abusive working conditions, there would be only shithole country workers in IS/IT.

      And no, that wouldn't convince companies to start paying high salaries for highly skilled workers. It would merely convince them to hire more shithole-country workers to fill the void.

  8. In other news... by roboboxcomputer · · Score: 1

    The sun rose today.

  9. Legacy systems are out of control by xack · · Score: 1

    Microsoft has just announced paid extended support for Windows 7 as too many companies are using it. There’s a lot of server 2003 systems out there too, with companies rather risking security exploits than upgrade.

    1. Re:Legacy systems are out of control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So I'm supposed to upgrade the single Windows 2003 system I have, running as a non-networked VM, hosting a proprietary application on a system we need to lookup legacy data that never changes so I can pay to upgrade to a modern system, figure out a way to migrate the data from one proprietary application to a new and different system just so I can have support I don't need on a system that can't realistically be exploited in the first place?

      OR I'm supposed to pay a premium for extended support on the current system so we can safely network the VM all so HR and Accounting don't have to ask me to run a 10 page report MAYBE once a year?

      HR and Accounting declined both options and for good reason.

    2. Re:Legacy systems are out of control by Ocker3 · · Score: 1

      A pity that new features aren't separated from security patches to allow users to keep their old platform secure without feature changes.

    3. Re:Legacy systems are out of control by gweihir · · Score: 2

      That is a different problem. Their new offerings are just really bad. Also, nobody sane used MS crap on server-side.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    4. Re:Legacy systems are out of control by xvan · · Score: 1

      Newer file browsers no longer let you edit the file path, you have to click on everything to get somewhere

      Ctrl+L, no, you don't need to thank me.

  10. Yet us 50+ folks are unemployed by Snotnose · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Forget how long I've been out of work, it's been 2-3 years now since I quit looking.

    1. Re:Yet us 50+ folks are unemployed by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm 57 and got at least 3 calls TODAY offering to submit me for contract software positions. Granted, a lot of recruiters try to low-ball me on the hourly rate, but they change their tune as soon as you call their bluff and tell them you're not interested at that low rate.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Yet us 50+ folks are unemployed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm 57 and got at least 3 calls TODAY offering to submit me for contract software positions. Granted, a lot of recruiters try to low-ball me on the hourly rate, but they change their tune as soon as you call their bluff and tell them you're not interested at that low rate.

      I get recruiters wanting to submit me all the time. Then after a week, I follow up and the "the position is closed." I think recruiters are assholes who got fired from see car lots for ethics violations.

      So, when you get a real job with health insurance, you'll be an outlier.

      Of course, that's assumimg you're not full of shit.

    3. Re:Yet us 50+ folks are unemployed by Locke2005 · · Score: 2

      I agree; I regard recruiters as people that weren't ethical enough to get jobs as used car salesmen. I interviewed for a job once, didn't get any response, so I started another position. A month after the initial interview, the recruiter for the first position offered me $1500 cash in a plain, unmarked envelope to quit the job I'd just started and take the other position instead! (Apparently the cash came out of his commission.) So yes, recruiters know nothing, rely almost entirely on keyword searching in resumes, and will do anything to make a quick buck. But as long as the checks clear, why should I complain?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    4. Re:Yet us 50+ folks are unemployed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I just turned 53 and I get about 10 a day from names I could never pronounce... "Rajesh Rajamanickkam", "Nitish Sharma", "guru prasad", "Tripti Sharma", "Vivek Mishra"

      All with some random company some random Microsoft technology in some random small city..all wanting contact info that is in my resume. All wanting to know if I am authorized to work in the USA so I can go work with a bunch of clueless foreign code monkeys that purchased a masters degree... No thanks.

      IDC Technologies is currently looking to fill urgent full-time permanent job positions as .Net Developer with the client based in Florence, KY location. Please let me know if you are available for the same.

      Please reply me with your updated resume and required details:
      Full Name (As per Legal Docs):
      Contact Number:
      Work authorization/Visa Status:
      Skype ID:
      Current Location:
      Current Compensation:
      Expected annual salary:
      Phone Interview Availability:
      Availability to join project:

  11. So, the old adage? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    Employees are our most valuable asset? I'm pretty sure it's actually still money.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:So, the old adage? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Employees are our most valuable asset? I'm pretty sure it's actually still money.

      Then stationary.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  12. Nonsensical headline... by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

    It's like saying "gold is worth more than money!" - totally meaningless.

    One (gold, developers) is a commodity that IS exchanged, the other (money) is the medium OF exchange.

    Saying that "commodity X" is worth more than "exchange medium Y" makes no sense because a commodity CANNOT be worth "more" or "less" than the medium of exchange used - it can only ever be worth a specified amount of Y.

  13. Talk about not understanding an article / Poll by Harlequin80 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    No where does it say that companies think developers are more important than money.

    The results state that the companies perceive the risk of not being able to find skills as higher than the risks of not being able to access capital.

    This is especially true if you're a cash rich organisation.

    In the current financial climate finding returns on your investments is hard. Interest rates are at historically low levels, bond returns are zero, and so that leaves higher risk investments to get returns. That effectively translates into money moving into the stock market and VC type investments which pushes money further and further up the risk tree making funding generally easy to find.

  14. lots of employees are "worth more than money"... by bkmoore · · Score: 1

    What management school fails to teach young inexperienced executives: If the company's future existence depends on whether or not an employee does the job correctly or not, they are "worth more than money".

  15. Tech debt is a business decision by swm · · Score: 1

    Incurring technical debt is a business decision.
    And it may well be the right decision.
    For example, in a startup, time to market typically trumps software quality.
    And there are a lot of startups in the software field...

  16. Not at my compamy by dccase · · Score: 2

    Not at my company, and certainly not at any other publicly-traded company.
    Maybe at some privately-held company until it gets bought out.

  17. Employees are our Most Valuable Asset by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

    Right behind carbon paper.

  18. Re:False by Klaxton · · Score: 2

    Software developers generally have to do what they are told, and work on whatever the boss thinks is important. You don't get to decide whether it is going to bring in money or not.

  19. And this is why we keep them chained to by Ranger · · Score: 1

    a cubicle.

    --
    "You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
  20. Re:Step one of the cure... by gweihir · · Score: 2

    I was thinking the same thing. Although JavaScript, Java, and the surrounding ecosystems could have come from MS, no doubt.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  21. Domain knowledge NOT valued, fads are by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    they'd pay the developers more to keep the skilled ones. Every time a developer leaves a company, a hunk of business knowledge walks out the door with him.

    I've consistently found that companies do NOT value domain knowledge in developers very much. Many colleagues have agreed with me on this. I'm not sure exactly why, other than perhaps co's would rather have somebody skilled in the latest eye-candy UI's more than an expert on their domain; and somebody who has been in the company for a while may have let their UI "fad" skills slip compared to a hungry grad. It's called "ageism" in other contexts.

    Books are judged by covers: UI fad compliance. Human nature. I've seen PHB's go gaga over "fashionable" and animated UI's, even giving a bastard dev a raise, and completely ignoring the horrid functionality and operational problems that came with it.

    (I can rant all day about the state of UI technology/standards AND human reaction to it. UI issues wag the IT dog.)

    1. Re:Domain knowledge NOT valued, fads are by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has now automated that with PowerBI. Most of those eye candy devs are going to be replaced by their customers soon.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    2. Re:Domain knowledge NOT valued, fads are by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      PowerBI seems more geared toward charts and graphs, and less on the input and CRUD side.

    3. Re:Domain knowledge NOT valued, fads are by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      It is- for now. Dang tool is evolving rather rapidly though, and it's easy enough to create input and crud for it in the C# sdk. Thing is though, it's extremely cloud based. If you are a large enough corporation, you MIGHT be able to get an onsite server, but even if you do, it will constantly be several months out of date. ONLY if you're willing to buy a bunch of seats for your executives to use the desktop app (which does have CRUD and data entry built in) or rent an Azure server, is it really an option so far.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  22. Post-scarcity society. by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    Post-scarcity society. Post-scarcity economy. The worth of money degenerates and disappears - ECB negative interest is almost a standard now and Jeff Bezos wears the same jeans I do and has the same phone. The worth of knowledge however suddenly rises because in a functioning post scarcity society is the only thing left that counts. Hence people are starting to notice the nerd camp who value knowledge above popularity actually on to something.

    Seems very fitting to me. I'm just wasn't expecting that to happen that fast and I'm my lifetime. But then again, nobody did, so that's a pleasant surprise.

    All in all, the consequence is logical. Capitalism has run its course, knowledge and culture are King. We need more of this, and fast, so people stop fighting stupid wars and accruing useless tat.

    My 2 cents. Errrm, "knowledge points". :-)

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  23. Title? by TJHook3r · · Score: 1

    What does the headline even mean? A business quantifies things by ROI... developers should be no different than any other asset. Maybe they just need to work out what the 'R' means.

  24. And yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You fire us and replace us with H-1B drones or outsource to 'dev centers' in third world countries.

    As we age, you push us off onto the shit projects which keeps us from getting experience in new technologies, thus making us unhireable after you lay us off.

    You refuse to train us but expect but demand that anyone you hire has years of experience in your particular tech mix.

    etc., etc., etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't that there's a lack of available tech talent, maybe the problem is that there is a lack of management talent. Used to be that 'managers' actually used to put thought and effort into building a workforce, recognizing it as something of strategic importance to the long-term health of their business. Now, 'managers' just expect things to happen for them.

  25. assets like any other by ole_timer · · Score: 1

    money can be borrowed - mgt thinks so can s/w talent...

    --
    nothing to see here - move along