Slashdot Mirror
Some Students Say Having To Speak in Front of the Class is an Unreasonable Burden For Those With Anxiety and Are Requesting Alternative Options (theatlantic.com)
An anonymous reader shares a report: For many middle and high school students, giving an in-class presentation was a rite of passage. Teachers would call up students, one by one, to present their work in front of the class and, though it was often nerve wracking, many people claim it helped turn them into more confident public speakers. "Coming from somebody with severe anxiety, having somebody force me to do a public presentation was the best idea to happen in my life," one woman recently tweeted. According to a recent survey by the Association of American Colleges and Universities, oral communication is one of the most sought-after skills in the workplace, with over 90 percent of hiring managers saying it's important. Some educators also credit in-class presentations with building essential leadership skills, and increasing students' confidence and understanding of material.
But in the past few years, students have started calling out in-class presentations as discriminatory to those with anxiety, demanding that teachers offer alternative options. This week, a tweet posted by 15-year-old high school student declaring "Stop forcing students to present in front of the class and give them a choice not to" garnered over 130,000 retweets and nearly half a million likes. A similar sentiment tweeted in January also racked up thousands of likes and retweets. And teachers are listening.
But in the past few years, students have started calling out in-class presentations as discriminatory to those with anxiety, demanding that teachers offer alternative options. This week, a tweet posted by 15-year-old high school student declaring "Stop forcing students to present in front of the class and give them a choice not to" garnered over 130,000 retweets and nearly half a million likes. A similar sentiment tweeted in January also racked up thousands of likes and retweets. And teachers are listening.
It scared the crap out of me, but I came out of my shell with encouragement from some kindly teachers.
It's a rite of passage because in life, we have to be brave about many things. Not just big stuff like warfare and hurricanes, but life choices and eventually confronting mortality (put it off as long as you can).
We need to raise people to overcome their disadvantages, not revel in them. We can be compassionate and help them do so, but they need this ability to be brave and we need them to have it.
Alternative Right.
Yeah, I have social anxiety, but I actually found that public speaking is far easier (only after doing it) because you already know what you're going to say, and you have more control over the interaction. Additionally, it's an opportunity for people to get to see a side of you that you that they wouldn't necessarily see in daily interactions.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Ya, in 20 years when you're too afraid to walk out the door, you be demanding that "universal basic income" because you never developed communication or personal skills and it's society's fault -you're just another victim.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Think that life is going to be easy and they will never have to speak in front of people. Man do they have a wake up call coming when they have to get a job. Imagine even having to get thru an interview with the social skills of your typical basement dweller.
What if those great thinkers became the great thinkers they were because they were pushed into uncomfortable situations constantly from a young age?
Had they been allowed to retreat into their shells and play gameboy (or insert era appropriate menial diversion here) would they have amounted to anything?
Struggle is what leads to character, maybe a bit of social anxiety is actually a gift.
Social anxiety is not a terminal diagnosis. If people have severe social anxiety we should help them with treatment so they aren't crushed by it. The only "penalty" would be withholding the skill and experience necessary to help them overcome or at least better cope with their social anxiety.
The operative part of this is "from a young age". It's not really that hard to figure out who's for real and who's bullshitting. I mean, the first time a student's grandma dies, it's one thing. By the third or fourth time, there's something else going on.
You'd be surprised how much can be learned just by observing and simply speaking to a student. After all, it's not just the students that are there to learn.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Just when you thought the snowflake generation couldn't possibly get any softer... they pull some shit like this.
Says every generation as they get older and wiser, looking at their offspring wondering "Why won't they listen?"
Why is it that I keep hearing my parents talk when it's my mouth that's moving? Why is it that the looks on my kids faces seem to mirror the thoughts I had when my parents tried to impart their life knowledge by saying similar things?
Somehow I figure the young will grow up eventually and will be saying the same things to their kids, in about 20 years..
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
It seems to me in middle school and high school we teach everyone a little bit of math, a little bit of science, a little bit of English, a little bit art, etc. Some people enjoy math and are good at it. Some people don't like math and aren't very good at it. People who don't like math shouldn't major in math at a university, but I think it makes sense for everyone to learn a little math, a little English, etc. Everyone should have some basic competency.
Same with making a presentation - not everyone enjoys doing that, and like it's good for everyone to learn a bit of math, it's probably good for everyone to do a couple of presentations and gain a tad bit of very basic competency. Most jobs will require a presentation at some point, every job will require taking a deep breath and and doing something you're not 100% comfortable with. Asking for a raise sure does, at most any job. Some basic competency in doing presenting, and a little bit of experience doing something that isn't easy, seems like a really beneficial thing.
A large part of science and engineering research is being able to convey your findings to other - through written papers and presentations. Why do you think there are so many conferences? Why do you think events like TED talks are so popular?
If you cannot communicate your idea, it doesn't matter if it is the most brilliant thing ever. Being a presenter and writer is an essential part of the job.
Who said anything about liking public speaking? You don't have to like it, you just have to *do* it. One of those life skills that, unless you never have to interview in your life, is going to come in handy no matter how much you hate it.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
I've become accomplished at public speaking, but I understand where these students are coming from. Part of it is that some students are just facing too much stress, and having to speak out in class is just too much especially since some of these students don't really have the skills to deal with the stress.
Yeah, it's a fact of life _later_ in life. But there's no reason to be harsh on everyone who has a fear of it and make them go up right away. How about instead have counsellors for students to help them deal with these issues, and let students speak in class when they are ready. Sometimes, throwing someone in the deep end is actually too much.
"What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
If somebody has trouble in that area, perhaps special classes or work-shops can be provided whereby the student works their way up: speak to progressively bigger groups/crowds for progressively longer times rather than dive into the deep end on Day One.
We all have weak areas that we probably need special classes and/or assistance with.
I've seen no definitive evidence that traumatizing children makes them better adults, and perhaps has a net negative impact. Barring clear evidence for either side of the cowboy-vs-coddle debate, I believe my suggestion is reasonable and common-sense. However, it does require resources that poorer students and/or districts cannot afford.
Table-ized A.I.
No, the students are correct to question and challenge the requirement. "We" should be able to explain to them why it is important, how those who are poor at this can learn to improve, and how/what kind of assistance is available to those who experience extreme discomfort.
Throwing a label at these students only buttresses their suspicion: those adults who claim authority do not know crap.
Any scientist or engineer must be able to clearly and correctly explain things in front of an audience, even if that audience is larger. If somebody has anxiety (a serious mental condition, no argument) then they must find a way to still be able to do presentations to a group and interact with that group during and after the presentation or they will not be able to fulfill the requirements for the qualification they are aiming for. Sorry, no exceptions. You can't do it, you are not qualified.
I am all for helping them finding a solution or a workaround to the anxiety, but the presentation skills are a hard requirement.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Communication of Math is part of doing Math. There can be exceptions for world-exceptional practitioners (think Perelman), but that is it. The rest must develop reasonable communication skills or they are not Mathematicians. Any scientist or engineer can be expected to be able to communicated meaningfully with an audience. Also, getting a degree serves to extend your skills and abilities and, in particular, should allow you to find ways to work around limitations you have (and we all have some). If you are successful at getting there, no matter how (that is up to you but you can ask for help) then you deserve that degree. If not, you do not.
The only other alternative is to start handing out meaningless degrees. This is a slippery slope. Eventually we will have people that cannot read or write getting literature degrees or people that have no understanding of Physics getting engineering degrees. That must not happen. It also would be a huge disservice to these people, because lowering the bar for them does not encourage them to find a way to solve their specific problem. And on the ethics side, if we start allowing people with specific problems to get degrees easier, would we not be obliged to give advanced degrees to stupid people? They cannot help that either and it can be seen as a legitimate disability.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
As someone that was heavily into Math and science in High School, not learning proper public speaking has been an extreme detriment to my career. IT is honestly the difference between a 75k back room support job and a 100k+ consulting position.
"Knowing" is a super important thing for any person. "Demonstrating" that knowledge is often the key to success and if you can't speak publicly, you can't demonstrate.This is why we also teach handwriting and grammar in schools.
Indeed. If we all limited "work" to only things we like, not a lot of it would get done. An academic degree is a sign that you can read and write documents and that you can present things in front of people. For some degrees, that is the most important final job qualification. You must be able to competently do it. You are not required at all to "like" it. And yes, I know what anxiety looks like. You may be tripping sweat and shaking while doing this. You still need to be able to do it and that can only be achieved with practice. If you later go for a career where you have to do this only rarely, not a problem at all.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
The article doesn't appear to be talking about anxiety disorders. These aren't kids with a note from their doctor or something diagnosed. They're near-adults complaining that âoeNobody should be forced to do something that makes them uncomfortable"
Further, isn't âoeExposure therapyâ commonly used as a behavior therapy to help treat anxiety disorder?
Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
While I was going to College one of the best things I ever did for myself was get myself promoted to a supervisor on the front end of the grocery store I worked in. Yeah, it was constant panic attack for me for a while but within an admittedly lengthy period (most people wouldn't have taken as long and I was put on discipline a few times for making mistakes due to my nerves and was literally almost fired) I had that shit nailed and coming out of that I am far more well adjusted. After that experience I intentionally put myself through my rate of panic attacks drop to record lows and nowadays I literally just don't get them. In fact, for some absurd reason people generally regard me as an extrovert nowadays.
Now trust me, it fucking sucked ass initially but honestly I regard that move as equally valuable as the degree I got going to college. Also, don't get me wrong here, there are people that have very legitimate psychological issues well above and beyond what I used to have and my trial by fire experience might even be harmful for those types. Ultimately though, those people really are the minority and most shy people just need to force themselves out of their shells.
Shy people: The simple fact is you'll be far happier forcing yourself out of your shell. It will be awkward hell at first but humans are inherently social creatures. Ultimately, we need social contact to thrive.
Also, your sex life will probably be better in the end.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
I honestly think its the "meds" in a lot of cases causing the issue. There is wide spread psychotropic drug prescribing, and a lot of people that get them don't need them. What do those drugs do to our bodies and offspring let alone or state of mind.
I disagree. The ability to distill knowledge you've learned, then write a presentation on it, then present it and then take questions on it adds an entirely new dimension to your level of understanding. The marks you get for presentation performance are not marking your speaking skills necessarily, but all the other educational tools you used to be able to present a good short lecture. The French system "Le Bac", introduced by Napoleon and still used to day heavily depends on oral presentation
>A meaningless kind of role-playing. ... and you just described 90% of high school. The entire environment is horribly artificial, and generally manages to completely miss the point of even the education. Knowledge rots without usage, and it's a rare class that teaches you the skills to effectively use that knowledge outside of class.
I am sorry nobody challenged you to make your presentations worth the time to listen to, much less prepare. I seriously doubt you had any presentations that were literally regurgitating classroom content, where a little independent research couldn't have added a great deal of additional information and classroom merit (and maybe even improved your grade). I had some teachers early on that made it clear that was the *point* of giving a presentation, and never encountered one in all my years that objected. I was shy and pretty much always hated having to give presentations, but at least I learned early on that the point was to practice conveying information, wish I had caught on earlier that it was also about engaging the audience. If you can engage an initially utterly indifferent classroom audience about an arbitrary topic... that's a skill set that will serve you well whenever you need to convey information or influence decisions. Sort of throwing you into the lion's den on that front, but it's a large enough audience that you can probably interest at least one or two enough to pay attention. Probably help if there were an explicit speech-giving course squeezed in there at some point.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Well, it's real life. If you can't stand in front of your own class and talk, then how do you expect to get through the rest of life? There aren't that many jobs where you can just hide in a corner and not interact with others.
I am not very social around strangers. I can be but it takes some effort. When I was job hunting once I was having trouble. One manager eventually said "we liked you, but you didn't seem interested in the job". First feedback I ever got from an interview. At that point I changed tactics. At the next interview I acted like a different person. When they asked "do you have any questions for us" then instead of saying "no I think I'm good" instead I gave them some questions I came up with beforehand. Things got better at that point and I got a job not long after (not great but it was getting me in the door). After awhile, that way of acting became natural so that it's not really an act anymore. Being engaged with the person you're talking to really makes a huge difference.
Having a mental illness is real life too. Yes, disability means you are unable to do certain things.
I have a disability. It sucks, I wish I didn't, I wish I could do an the stuff I can't do because of it. And the most frustrating thing is when people say stuff like "maybe if you just tried" or "you need to get over it".
I know you mean well but it's not something a person can just push though. Maybe instead of just throwing kids in at the deep end they could have classes helping them understand and maybe overcome their issues, if that's possible for them.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC