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US Lawmakers Say AI Deepfakes 'Have the Potential To Disrupt Every Facet of Our Society' (theverge.com)

Yesterday, several lawmakers sent a letter to the Director of National Intelligence, Dan Coats, asking him to assess the threat posed to national security by deepfakes -- a new type of AI-assisted video editing that creates realistic results with minimal effort. The Verge reports: The letter says "hyper-realistic digital forgeries" showing "convincing depictions of individuals doing or saying things they never did" could be used for blackmail and misinformation. "As deep fake technology becomes more advanced and more accessible, it could pose a threat to United States public discourse and national security," say the letter's signatories, House representatives Adam Schiff (D-CA), Stephanie Murphy (D-FL), and Carlos Curbelo (R-FL). The trio want the intelligence community to produce a report that includes descriptions of when "confirmed or suspected" deepfakes have been produced by foreign individuals (there are no current examples of this), and to suggest potential countermeasures. In a press statement, Curbelo said: "Deep fakes have the potential to disrupt every facet of our society and trigger dangerous international and domestic consequences [...] As with any threat, our Intelligence Community must be prepared to combat deep fakes, be vigilant against them, and stand ready to protect our nation and the American people."

198 comments

  1. Something big is coming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why else would the start to push these headlines

  2. Re:TRUMP by Mal-2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This Congress? Nothing except verbally distance themselves from him (if they even do that) while lining their pockets with his policies. The next Congress though -- that's a whole different matter.

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  3. They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They're obviously lying. Politicians are gonna love the proliferation of deepfakes. That way, the next time they say something stupid in an interview, they can say the clip is a deepfake. They're just starting to blame them as an upcoming problem now so they can start using it as an excuse ASAP.

    1. Re:They're lying (They're politicians) by quantaman · · Score: 0

      They're obviously lying. Politicians are gonna love the proliferation of deepfakes. That way, the next time they say something stupid in an interview, they can say the clip is a deepfake. They're just starting to blame them as an upcoming problem now so they can start using it as an excuse ASAP.

      It also means there will be countless fake videos of them doing and saying all sorts of horrible things. Do you really want the internet to be filled with videos of yourself raping children while yelling the N word?

      --
      I stole this Sig
    2. Re:They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jurassic Park had a $63 million budget.
      Within that budget they manually added the face of an actress on top of the stunt doubles body in a scene and that was 25 years ago.

      For national level politics faking videos has been on the table for a long time. Hiring a couple of lookalikes and editing the video to make make it look real isn't that expensive.

      The difference here is that it can now be done by assholes on the city level. You no longer need to make profits in the $100 million range to make it worth it.
      With a trained AI you can do it for the lulz.

    3. Re:They're lying (They're politicians) by Z00L00K · · Score: 0

      For anyone that did watch the TV series "Max Headroom" along with watching a lot of faked memes this with Deepfakes isn't even a concern.

      People are getting immune to that shit, the only problem is that people don't trust politicians at all these days. And only the snowflakes cares about whatever Trump says, the rest of us look at the others around him. Especially Mattis is one to watch to see where the wind is blowing, but then you'd have to watch for very subtle hints instead.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    4. Re: They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They really ought to rename this stuff. When I see AI and deepfake together I just think of the massive fraud and fakery that is the whole 'artificial intelligence' industry in general.

    5. Re: They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here. People have been faking visual media for centuries, 'AI', my ass. There are only algorithms. I'm more concerned about unethical humans. Also, it's trivial to detect manipulation in photos, the same can be said of this, tools will be developed. Omniscient and infallible technology is a millennial's post-pubescent fantasy, nothing more. The only thing to truly concern one's self with is a human being's willingness to cling to stupidity, self-righteousness, and ignorance in the face of blatant deception.

    6. Re:They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For national level politics faking videos has been on the table for a long time. Hiring a couple of lookalikes and editing the video to make make it look real isn't that expensive.

      Bullshit. It isn't just a matter of cost, it's a matter of keeping it secret. It used to be that producing a deepfake involved too many people to keep it a secret. Now, not so much.

    7. Re: They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We aren't getting immune, we were always immune.
      How did people keep up with everything before the internet?
      We fucking didn't and still don't, it's a non-issue.

      So what we have to go back to using our own judgement. We did fine for thousands upon thousands of years. We'll just have to go back to assuming all politics are tricks and lies and keep our votes to ourselves. It's not a big deal.

    8. Re: They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so, the majority of 'merkins. hows that working for them so far.

    9. Re:They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like the fake alqueda videos produced in Texas....

    10. Re: They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Bell Curve is going to make you and all of modern society itâ(TM)s bitch

      Your self-righteous willful ignorance only makes you a useful idiot

    11. Re: They're lying (They're politicians) by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      See how the turkeys jump when it's something that affects them (in an election). Oh the outrage when somone other than a politician injects themselves into an election or creates hit piece videos.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    12. Re: They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who says the us people will be the targets of the deep fakes? This tech can be used to round up support for all sorts of nasty militia in remote places on a tight budget. The first you find out that it happened could be after the shit has gone down.

    13. Re: They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never did believe everything I saw on TV...never treated the internet any different.

      Stop giving support. Screw them all. Wait for real, verified news like we did before every newspaper went digital. It wasn't that long ago that the nation couldn't be swayed overnight by rumors. Just quit being a manipulatable bitch. Sorry, there's just no other word. If you change your opinion over rumors you are easy to use and therefore a bitch.

    14. Re:They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't stop it. This is not a particular app that you can just ban. It's the way deep learning works at a fundamental level.

    15. Re:They're lying (They're politicians) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We have your confession on tape." - Police

  4. Re: TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You already tired of winning, snowflake?

  5. Same as it ever was by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Informative

    Photos use to be considered "strong evidence", then Photoshop etc. came along to make doctoring cheap and common, and people stopped trusting photos. The same will happen to audio and video once they see enough fudged examples.

    1. Re:Same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Security footage can be digitally signed as soon as it is produced, in order to give it more credibility.

      Tape storage of video footage could possibly under go a physical tagging process with logged vault access, to similarly boost credibility.

    2. Re:Same as it ever was by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      True, but then the analysis falls to believing experts arguing over whether or not there was tampering

    3. Re:Same as it ever was by joe_frisch · · Score: 2

      Agreed. The problem is that with photos, video and voice all untrustable, what is left? How can someone come to an independent conclusion about anything?

      Politicians will just deny saying things that were caught on video....oh wait....

      It really is a serious issue.

    4. Re:Same as it ever was by kiminator · · Score: 1

      I think the difference with photos is that only limited information can be gleaned from a photo. The information which might be gleaned from a video is far, far more detailed. In particular, if they could effectively fake a voice, then the potential implications are pretty tremendous.

      Personally, I suspect we're a long way off from reasonably-convincing fakes. And even when we do have such fakes, it's going to be far more difficult to make a fake which withstands careful scrutiny.

    5. Re:Same as it ever was by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      Photos use to be considered "strong evidence", then Photoshop etc. came along to make doctoring cheap and common, and people stopped trusting photos. The same will happen to audio and video once they see enough fudged examples.

      Is that really true, though? Yes, Photoshop has made photo doctoring easy, but the digital age makes it easy enough to detect and debunk. AFAIK, it is extremely difficult to doctor a photo well enough that simple forensic analysis can not determine that it was manipulated, and even without that, if someone can show the original undoctored image, the fake is easily debunked.

      And really, how often is this an issue? The last time I can recall a doctored photo even being noted in the news is a year or so ago when someone posted a doctored photo of Whoopi Goldberg wearing a t-shirt depicting Trump blowing his brains out (caption: Make America Great Again). It was quickly debunked, just by providing the original photo. I can't even recall any other recent example of a doctored image being a newsworthy item. If that's as significant a case as we've seen, is it really a huge problem?

      From that perspective, the hue and cry over "deepfake" video seems way overblown to me.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    6. Re:Same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sort of thing goes on all the time already. Business as usual.

    7. Re:Same as it ever was by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Agreed. If nothing else, we'll train an AI to spot the fakes. I mean, apparently AI can do anything these days, right?

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    8. Re:Same as it ever was by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      If nothing else, we'll train an AI to spot the fakes

      Yes, that is exactly how it works. Train one DNN to generate fakes, and train another to detect the fakes. Set them up as adversarial networks.

      The generating network, and the detecting network continue to improve as each fights to defeat the other. Eventually the generator creates an image or video so good that it passes as "real". That is a "deep fake".

    9. Re:Same as it ever was by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      In a way we're back to the problem thats plagued philosophers since time immemorial. Can we trust what we percieve? Do we go back to Hume and trust nothing, or back off a little and say Well we aren't entirely sure, but we do have this fantastic cognitive ability to sort through it and hopefully come to the right conclusions, while accepting we kinda see what we wanna see.

      No good answers here, other than this really isn't as new as we think. We've always had to contend with untruths.

      The difference is, for most of out history most of what we knew was kind of nonsense anyway. We didn't understand health, science, most people had little idea how things worked in the Capital or the Kings court, and for the most part knew how to get food, drive a horse, and die at 50 of some ridiculous plague we think was caused by miasmas.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    10. Re:Same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AI doesn't just create these things by itself without human input dipshit Bill, you have no idea how this works.

    11. Re: Same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lookup: unsupervised learning

      Alphago Zero is the crown example, but no silver bullet.

    12. Re:Same as it ever was by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Agreed. The problem is that with photos, video and voice all untrustable, what is left?

      For the most part photos, videos and voice are only untrustable to the common person. To expert opinion identifying a doctored item is usually very straight forward.

    13. Re:Same as it ever was by BeanThere · · Score: 2

      Sure, but in a typical court case, the defense and the prosecution will both put forth 'experts', one assuring everyone a video is fake, the other assuring everyone that video is real, and the jury (who have absolutely no clue how to tell which expert is reliable) will have to go off various internal biases.

      Investigators, prosecutors, judges - none of these people have the knowledge to distinguish real videos from fake videos, and they also don't have the knowledge to distinguish real experts from bullsh-tters.

      I was involved with an actual case where investigators and prosecution decided not to proceed with the case literally because the video footage evidence was from someone who theoretically had the know-how to fake such footage, and they knew it would 'stalemate' on whether the footage was real, as they basically had no forensic capacity to determine the reliability of the footage.

    14. Re:Same as it ever was by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      "Yes, Photoshop has made photo doctoring easy, but the digital age makes it easy enough to detect and debunk"

      Considering how many people I've seen boldly declaring something 'obviously fake' on the basis of dumb crap like JPEG artifacts or H.264/H.265 encoding artifacts, I'm very wary of anyone who thinks it thinks it's "easy" to detect and debunk fakes - actually, I've been doctoring photos in Photoshop for over 10 years, and the bottom line is that while badly-done fakes are easy to spot, most well-done fakes are 'difficult to impossible' to detect. Yes, at a certain quality level of work, it is currently impossible to distinguish a well-done fake from a legitimate image - this will remain true until we have digital signing built in to cameras and then end-to-end in the workflow (which currently seems like that will never happen). There are many people with the skills to create well-done fakes - you think it's easy to spot fakes because you look on reddit or whatever and readily spot thousands of crappy fakes, but that's an example of selection bias - the fakes you didn't spot were those that were well done.

      Photoshop isn't the only way to create fakes either - e.g. one can hire a few actors and create a fake scene, say, supposedly showing injured children in Gaza or something, and take quite "legitimate" photos (of the acted-out scene), "legitimate" in the sense that they need no Photoshop, and distribute those as propaganda too.

    15. Re:Same as it ever was by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      "Agreed. If nothing else, we'll train an AI to spot the fakes. I mean, apparently AI can do anything these days, right?"

      So you'll train the AI to spot fakes based on what, real-world training data for which you can't reliably determine they're fakes? Or you'll create your own fakes as training data? This doesn't make much sense; since it's impossible for a human to distinguish a very well-done fake from a legitimate image, you're basically just going to train your AI to at best determine badly-done fakes - the very ones that a human can easily spot anyway.

    16. Re:Same as it ever was by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      This still doesn't make sense. You cannot reliably determine the best 'faked images', and there's a reason for that - the only way we can know a well-faked image is fake is if there are things that *semantically* don't make sense in an image - e.g. say it's supposedly a photo of a ball, but the lighting doesn't make sense for a ball as there's a shading anomaly on the surface of the ball - the human can say, OK, that's supposed to be round but it's not, that must be fake - but if the AI 'fake detector' doesn't know that's supposed to be a ball, and if the lighting is correct for the shading anomaly if it were a dimple on the ball, then the "fake" IS NOT ACTUALLY A FAKE - it's just a photo of a ball with a dimple, with correct lighting. (If the lighting is *inherently wrong*, e.g. we can see the scene is lit from the left but there's a shadow falling the wrong way - then sure, we can tell something is fake - but a well-done fake incorporates correct applied scene lighting.)

      Now image this fake is not a ball, but the super-imposition of one face, over another face - e.g. we take a photo of an actor doing something, then super-impose Trump's face over it - AS LONG AS WE GET THE LIGHTING RIGHT for Trump's face, then there is no way to tell the image is "fake" (unless we know via some other means, that Trump was not in that location at that time) - a pixel is a pixel is a pixel, whether that pixel came from Photoshop or not.

      Of course there are other little things like image grain, but that's trivial to apply, as long as we look at the granularity profile of the original we can simulate granularity on the faked parts (I have done this many times).

      Your generator is creating 100% fake images, so a *true* reliable detector would detect 100% of the images generated by that generator.

    17. Re:Same as it ever was by swb · · Score: 1

      What's funny is that most photos are more detailed and higher resolution than most videos. The video captures motion, but is usually lower (often much) lower pixel density, worse color quality, and often suffers from poor image stabilization.

    18. Re:Same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Photos use to be considered "strong evidence", then Photoshop etc. came along to make doctoring cheap and common, and people stopped trusting photos. The same will happen to audio and video once they see enough fudged examples.

      The more obvious concern is how long will that take to disrupt our legal system. Will we condemn innocent victims for years before people stop trusting video surveillance footage and judges stop accepting it as evidence?

    19. Re:Same as it ever was by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Well that's fundamentally the way ANY court process works about anything. The goal of the jury is to decide what information to trust. There's nothing deepfake about this, it's the way it's been done since the 1800s.

    20. Re:Same as it ever was by caseih · · Score: 1

      Reading the book The Truth Machine right now, which touches on this issue. The solution mentioned in the book is digital certification and notarization of images and video. Security camera footage, for example, is all digitally signed (by whom, I don't know). Any modification of the footage breaks the signature and is thus inadmissible in a court, or easily detectable. Trusted services that can notarize images and video make a lot of money in this universe. The mechanics of how this all would happen is not explored.

      Of course all of this is turned on its head in the book with the introduction to society of the Truth Machine, which makes it all unnecessary.

    21. Re:Same as it ever was by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      what is left?

      Multiple kinds of evidence: witnesses, forensics, detective work. It's not cheap, but it never has been.

    22. Re:Same as it ever was by denzacar · · Score: 1

      That's not how embedded encrypted hashes work.

      It's not a problem to tag videos or any kind of a digital recording with invisible but readable watermarks based on the content of the video.
      Hell... Kids today love blockchains.
      Put a blockchain in it and tag it all the way from the lens to the eyeball. OK... CCD/CMOS to LCD.

      The problem is backwards compatibility and the cost of upgrades.
      There's still video out there that is captured with outdated analog devices, particularly of the security kind.
      And that's not even talking about EVERYTHING ELSE. CCD/CMOS to LCD.
      Or about a security protocol (as in agreement, not as in software) to coordinate that on a global scale.
      Which would have to go R&D to consumer.

      We're talking pan-global standards and cooperation and trillions of dollars and decades of implementation.
      On the other hand, that's trillions of dollars and decades of sales for the side that comes up with a globally viable standards first. And easiest to implement.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    23. Re:Same as it ever was by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      You understand that. I mostly understand that. The problem is explaining it to someone who doesn't have any technical education. Maybe if society gains experience with the reliability of the system, but that will take a long time and a few high profile exceptions will kill that belief for the whole proces.

    24. Re: Same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is about creating new video and the court of public opinion. Massively broader than just tampering "security" footage. Even for that narrow case, can make a whole new footage with any timestamp you want. And replace original or not. Proof doesn't matter. Birth certificates, vaccines, climate change denier a prove that.

    25. Re:Same as it ever was by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      Back to analog for forensic evidence? Those are harder to fake.

      If there is a video footage of something it may not stand as a proof on its own. Other bits of evidence from multiple sources and in different forms will have to align with what the video shows to form a consistent view.

    26. Re:Same as it ever was by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the sarcasm implied in my post. But given recent AI hype, I could see how that might be taken seriously. That being said...

      So you'll train the AI to spot fakes based on what, real-world training data for which you can't reliably determine they're fakes?

      Yes. It's not like you can't find a bunch of training material which you know are fakes to train your algorithm on. I can't tell most visual effects in movies are fake, but I know they are. Same principle.

      Also, note that it's *humans* that can't reliably tell if they're fakes. The whole point is that computers have much deeper powers of analysis than humans do - they tend to be good at that. Our brains fill in a lot of missing information, which is how psycho-accoustic audio encoding or video compression works. There's a possibility that deepfake generation algorithms leave telltale clues that are perceptibly lossless to humans, but would stand out with rigorous analysis.

      Obviously, I have to allow for the possibility that deepfakes can't be algorithmically detected either, but I wouldn't be surprised if some researcher or tech firm takes up the challenge. Someone like Facebook is perhaps already researching this, as they seemed determined to play Arbiter-of-Truth in their sandbox.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    27. Re: Same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in 1985, I knew a music student who could create audio dialogue on his Apple ][ or Apple //e that sounded exactly like his victim. Digital analysis would confirm that it was the target.

      It took about six months to set up the sounds for one person, but once done, the mimicry was perfect.

      So no, duplicating what the politician sounds like is long solved problem.

    28. Re:Same as it ever was by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Given the poor quality, and the lack of provenance or ability to verify a chain of custody, of most video and audio evidence, it's not certain at all that more sophisticated doctoring will be apparent. An analyst with good tools can often deduce a great deal about the recording tools and the details of the original recording. But it takes time and effort that is often not of interest to a prosecutor.

    29. Re:Same as it ever was by HiThere · · Score: 1

      We have already got a legal system that has for (at least) decades trusted the honesty of the prosecutor handling the evidence, so this is a very small increment in reasonable distrust.

      Possibly I should have said centuries, but I'm not sure how long the current prosecutor/defense attorney system has been in place, and analogs have been in place back to the Classical Greeks. (I.e., the Romans had an analog, but I'm not sure how the Greeks managed things, or whether they all did it the same way.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    30. Re: Same as it ever was by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure it's the same. Yes, photos can be edited with Photoshop - quite realistically if the operator is skilled. But, as I understand it, manipulation by Photoshop can be detected by various means. What we're talking about here is manipulation by artificial intelligence, not by a human working with keyboard and mouse. The implication is that as AI becomes increasingly more sophisticated, AI generated fakes will also become more sophisticated, perhaps to the point where humans can no longer tell the difference.

    31. Re:Same as it ever was by GrandCow · · Score: 1

      "If this file is changed in any way, even the slightest individual frame, the hash won't be the same. It's the same as an evidence bag with an indicator that shows that it has already been opened."

      Pretty damn simple.

      --
      "Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
    32. Re:Same as it ever was by fafalone · · Score: 1

      The jury must decide what to trust sure, but shouldn't be deciding whether a scientific process is valid, and allowing in junk science is a major problem. Bad science shouldn't be put in front of a jury of laypeople; look at all the false convictions bad science like bite marks lead to. And it's *supposed* to be excluded, but unfortunately the Daubert standard for challenging expert testimony goes in front of judges who can't be bothered to do their job, and winds up being 'has any other judge allowed this?'.
      And if you want one more item to add to the list of 'horrible Trump administration actions', the Obama Justice Department had set up a commission on forensic science that, despite some issues like having more lawyers and forensic scientists than actual scientists, basically worked to establish reliable standards for valid techniques, and pushed to stop using useless frauds like bite marks and hair comparison. So of course Sessions shut the whole thing down, defended the use of scientifically invalid methods, and put a single prosecutor answerable only to him in charge of declaring what prosecutors can use. Unsurprisingly the only president who could make Dubya look good managed to pick an AG so awful he makes Ashcroft look good... ugh.

    33. Re:Same as it ever was by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The jury must decide what to trust sure, but shouldn't be deciding whether a scientific process is valid, and allowing in junk science is a major problem.

      They aren't deciding on whether a scientific process is valid, they are deciding on the explanation offered by experts, trust in the people. I agree bad science shouldn't be put in front of the jury, but that's an idealistic view of a court system which has that amazing airtight defence that will force out the truth: putting you hand on a book and pinky swearing.

      But I think we're fundamentally in agreement anyway. This isn't about deep fakes doctoring videos. It's about a process that has flaws and has had them for centuries.

    34. Re:Same as it ever was by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      There's no need to verify chain of custody if doctoring becomes apparent through simple statistical techniques. I think you're well over estimating the time and effort required. Often a simple JPEG error level analysis can determine what was doctored in an image, to say nothing of the fact that most outright lies (meaning composite images where someone has been doctored out or doctored in) are easy to identify.

      For the common case we are well and truly in the realm of good enough. Now if you're prosecuting e.g. russian spies on evidence then you may wish to put more effort it, and I'm betting the prosecutor will be happy to do just that.

    35. Re:Same as it ever was by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Running those "simple statistical techniques" is technologically feasible. Is it feasible fiscally? How much does it cost to run this analysis? Is this going to become more difficult and complex to detect as the doctoring tools improve?

      Prosecutors are _not_ happy to have to spend more time and effort validating evidence. Neither are defense attorneys. It costs time and effort.

    36. Re:Same as it ever was by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      What's funny is that most photos are more detailed and higher resolution than most videos. The video captures motion, but is usually lower (often much) lower pixel density, worse color quality, and often suffers from poor image stabilization.

      In spite of that, you can often make out details on video that don't show up well in a photograph, like flat reflective surfaces which can be difficult to identify in stills. Ideally, you'd have both of them. Also, blur.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    37. Re:Same as it ever was by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Running those "simple statistical techniques" is technologically feasible. Is it feasible fiscally? How much does it cost to run this analysis?

      Well for a basic first pass you can upload the picture to any ELA online website. Though for courts they may want to do something more trustable like download free code from Github, or maybe even use one of the several open source forensic tools which are available. The same technique used for images works for video too though I'm not sure as many open source programs are around for it at this point.

      The point is, it's not as hard as you make out, and the level of effort / expense is proportional to the crime being prosecuted, and as I said for the common idiot who ends up in court you're likely to find the quality of their handywork matches https://photoshoptroll.com/

    38. Re:Same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're basing your analysis on something that has nothing to do with how these things work.

    39. Re:Same as it ever was by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course,. that just shifts the trust to the signature. Anyone can create a fake, sign it with a random key and claim it to be a signed video. The problem becomes one of trusting both the validity of the key and making sure the key is not available to someone with an interest in producing a fake video.

      So if the police present a signed dashcam video showing that the citizen shot first, we still have to ask if the police had access to the signing key. If yes, then the signature means nothing.

      Just to further muddy the water, thanks to the NSA, there are a lot of signing keys out there that are a LOT less secure than was thought at the time they were generated.

    40. Re:Same as it ever was by sjames · · Score: 1

      Most of the cost isn't the code, it's the expert that runs the code, interprets the results for lay people, and testifies that the code actually performs a valid analysis.

    41. Re:Same as it ever was by denzacar · · Score: 1

      So if the police present a signed dashcam video showing that the citizen shot first, we still have to ask if the police had access to the signing key. If yes, then the signature means nothing.

      That is not how asymmetric encryption works.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    42. Re:Same as it ever was by sjames · · Score: 1

      That is exactly how it works. If you gain access to the signing key (the secret key) then you can sign things yourself.

  6. Pee video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When it comes out you know Trump's going to say it's a deepfake, but the truth is he's not that deep. And he probably did get pissed on by the whores, the dumb traitor fuck lol he has no idea what he's doing. Get a rope, drain swamp time.

    1. Re:Pee video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it comes out you know Trump's going to say it's a deepfake, but the truth is he's not that deep. And he probably did get pissed on by the whores, the dumb traitor fuck lol he has no idea what he's doing. Get a rope, drain swamp time.

      Hell, I'm a patriot...I'll gladly piss on Trump.

    2. Re:Pee video by HiThere · · Score: 1

      What's really weird about people is that with all the things Trump has done, so many people are fixated on whether he's into golden showers. That's really, really, trivial. Contributing to a huge death toll in Puerto Rico is nearly ignored.

      The only significant thing about the pee tape is that if it's true it's another thing Putin has as a hold over Trump, but it's my guess that his real hold is that Trump's a physical (at least) coward, and Putin threatened to have something physical done to him if he didn't obey. I really don't think that Mr. "Grab-em by the pussy" would be obeying to avoid embarrassment.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    3. Re:Pee video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He has successfully moved the Overton Window far enough to make us dismiss a hypothetical Russian pee tape as just another day in the life of our President. That in itself is an interesting strategy for dealing with blackmail.

  7. Authentication by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    something something pgp signing ...

    1. Re:Authentication by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wibble wibble blockchains ...

  8. To Bad For Them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dan Coats is actually in the Bahamas collecting a free pay check. He answers all of Congress by video deep fake AI produced political jargon. The report says "no significant threat posed".

  9. Shit ton of Russians on this thread by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Means the Russians are very interested in this

  10. In other words by Leuf · · Score: 1

    This is a potential problem that directly affects congress critters and famous people and really nobody else, so clearly it has the potential to destroy civilization and we must prioritize dealing with it.

  11. gubbermint is eevil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " ... individuals doing or saying things they never did"

    Yeah, it's deep-fakes, not fake news that causes that.

    ... pose a threat to United States public discourse ...

    Ditto.

    ... the potential to disrupt every facet of our society ...

    We already see fake news and a 'gubbermint is eevil' mindset (created by fake news), allow the rich to manipulate voters into asinine decisions that damage those same voters.

    ... Intelligence Community must be prepared ...

    This is 'Mission impossible' territory, where imposters assume the place of military and intelligence personnel.

  12. OH NOES by Jarwulf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We're headed back to that horrible time a few decades ago without pervasive reliable audio and visual surveillance. Quick! Let's pass more laws curtailing freedom of expression and individual liberty!

    1. Re:OH NOES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. It's a bit frustrating but you gotta do what you gotta do.

  13. Re: TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/14/manafort-plea-mueller-probe-825753 Manafort got tired of winning...

  14. Preempive damage control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is just preemptive damage control in case the videos of him from comet ping pong happen to surface.

  15. Re:TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He's disrupting every facet of our society. What is congress going to do about him?

    -

    Congress is going to feed you to negroes in a maximum-security prison. By the end of the first night, you will never again have a solid turd.

  16. Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by steveha · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Robert A. Heinlein imagined this problem, and in his novel Stranger in a Strange Land he described a new profession: "Fair Witness"

    A Fair Witness is a person who is trained to observe and remember without jumping to any conclusions. A Fair Witness should be able to describe in court what he/she saw, and only that. As an example, a Fair Witness would say something like "I observed a house, and the side I saw appeared white" rather than "I observed a white house." It's possible that other sides of the house, not seen by the Fair Witness, could be a different color; and it's possible the house was repainted after the Fair Witness saw it... the Fair Witness keeps such things in mind.

    Surprisingly, Wikipedia doesn't seem to think that the idea of "Fair Witness" is notable. I Google searched for a reference, and I found a reference that claims to be quoting Wikipedia, but I can't find it on Wikipedia now.

    http://dlkphotography.com/fair-witness/stranger-in-a-strange-land

    I found the "Fair Witness" idea to be one of the most interesting things in the book, and I have long wondered if we would one day see that profession in real life.

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    1. Re:Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Douglas Adams imagined a truly fair witness in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. He was also http://www.thedailyzen.org/2015/05/27/the-ruler-of-the-universe/the ruler of the universe.

      It's both a ridiculous character and a fair critique of the "fair witness". Saying merely "I observed a house" is still loaded with jumped conclusions. Heck, even "I feel I have have a strong memory of being under the distinct impression that what I observed included something that appeared to be a house" isn't free of jumped conclusions that could be relevant to establishing the facts of a case.

    2. Re:Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In my "Intro to Psychology" class we learned about experiments that were performed that involved staging an event in front of a room full of people, including people who were trained as observers. Then, quizzing them on the details.

      Everyone performed badly, including the trained observers. Especially prominent were racial biases, skewing their memory of who did what.

      The notion of "fair witness" is too high a bar for humans to hit. We cannot avoid jumping to conclusions, infusing our biases, etc. And our memories are not nearly as accurate as they feel.

    3. Re:Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by mnemotronic · · Score: 1

      ... And our memories are not nearly as accurate as they feel

      Reminds me of this witness memory demo on youtube. IMHO, the problem of synthesized eyewitness videos will, to paraphrase JBS Haldane or Arthur Eddington, eventually lead to trouble that will not be just worse than we imagine, but worse than we can imagine.

      --
      The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
    4. Re:Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      OK, but how did the average go?

      Is the collective recollection biased or is it just noisy?
      With proper filtering it might still be possible to reconstruct what really happened.

    5. Re:Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Japan eliminated juries in the WWII period. Rather than a "Fair Witness", they assumed a panel of trained judges could determine the honesty of any witness. This makes more sense because the witness must be present at the vent, and no "Fair Witness" can be certain to do that.

      [https://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/litigationnews/trial_skills/practice-points-japan-jury-system-criminal.html]

    6. Re: Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check it the Star Trek TNG episode called A Matter of Perspective. They took all the witnesses testimony and only used that which agreed across the board. It's one of my favorite episodes

    7. Re:Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Search for the experiment about the man in the gorilla suit, or about the stabbing murder with a banana. Average recollection isn't more reliable. People tend to see what they expect to see.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re:Heinlein's "Fair Witness" by steveha · · Score: 1

      staging an event in front of a room full of people, including people who were trained as observers. Then, quizzing them on the details.

      Everyone performed badly, including the trained observers.

      I once participated in an exercise along those lines. Our group was shown a video in which a man with a revolver robbed a bank or something and fired the revolver. The group was asked how many shots the man fired.

      Some of the group thought he fired 7 times. From his revolver.[1]

      I actually got the count perfect, but that's because he fired a few shots, then there was a beat, then he fired more shots; I remembered the cadence of the shooting, like a little song played on a musical instrument that only goes "BANG", and I played the little song back in my head and counted the shots. I knew that in a more chaotic scene there was no way I would have kept track of how many shots were being fired.

      The point of the exercise was to emphasize how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be.

      But a Fair Witness is better than a possibly doctored video. Ideally, you should have a Fair Witness saying the same thing that the video shows, and then you can have more confidence in the video.

      [1] Actually, I've seen a 9 shot .22 revolver, but the video showed a revolver that obviously was bigger than .22. In recent years a couple of 7-shot revolvers have been made, but back when this exercise was done it was seriously unlikely a bank robber would have had anything beyond a 6-shooter.

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  17. Don't trust any one source by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2

    Simple solution: don't trust any one source. Even if they're supposedly impeccable. Look for corroboration from multiple independent sources (and make sure they're really independent and not all getting their information from the same source). For instance if you have a video of someone checking into a hotel with a compromising companion, look for corroboration from the hotel's records, hotel staff who should have interacted with them, and the person's credit-card records. This is what we used to do before people got lazy and started believing everything they were told without question.

    1. Re:Don't trust any one source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This just in: Toclol Xnanr (ISASI) was seen checking into a hotel with a mistress.

      ---
      This post brought to you by the ASCII deep fakes training bot. Upvote to improve the quality of the fakes.

    2. Re:Don't trust any one source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what we used to do before people got lazy and started believing everything they were told without question.

      The big problem is that our current media don't even bother to do this anymore. There's little hope for everyone else.

    3. Re: Don't trust any one source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This! It used to be that Journalists would only accept news as newsworthy when confirmed by multiple sources. These days not so much.

    4. Re:Don't trust any one source by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      You're solving the wrong problem. People in power want to throw poor people in jail with video evidence. They also want to be able to afford expensive lawyers to plant doubt that a video shows the objective truth.

      When politics gets involved with tech, it is all about self preservation and persecution.

    5. Re:Don't trust any one source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple solution: don't trust any one source. Even if they're supposedly impeccable. Look for corroboration from multiple independent sources (and make sure they're really independent and not all getting their information from the same source).

      What's stopping a single AI bot from creating multiple sources?

    6. Re:Don't trust any one source by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      Simple solution: don't trust any one source. Even if they're supposedly impeccable. Look for corroboration from multiple independent sources (and make sure they're really independent and not all getting their information from the same source). For instance if you have a video of someone checking into a hotel with a compromising companion, look for corroboration from the hotel's records, hotel staff who should have interacted with them, and the person's credit-card records. This is what we used to do before people got lazy and started believing everything they were told without question.

      Indeed.

      Deuteronomy 17:6

      On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

  18. US Lawmakers by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 4, Insightful

    are simply afraid of the competition.

    The US ( and everyone else ) has been altering both modern and historical facts to suit their own agendas since the very beginning.
    I'm curious why the sudden concern :|

    Pot. . . meet kettle.

    1. Re:US Lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Faking history, images and video coincides with rising authoritarianism, at least outside of US. Our former President under the watchful eye of the Russians and their buddies, some of which are still alive, had his birth steam sauna forged into images, as the original building had been torn down long ago.

        If the US lawmakers want to find the current examples deep fake equivalent material, they only have to see how Trump's filtered (but not altered) communications seem like aboard. Nobody wouldn't want to say such embarrassing things in real life, would they?

  19. Deep Fakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I suppose the solution is to create AI's that can quickly detect fakes and remove them from any website that posts them. Otherwise no video or photo can ever be trusted. That would be catastrophic. Maybe all videos and photos will need to be authenticated and stamped in some way so that no alteration is possible.

    1. Re:Deep Fakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BLOCKCHAIN

    2. Re: Deep Fakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Just PGP. It doesn't need to be public. Just signed.

    3. Re: Deep Fakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blockchains donâ(TM)t need to be public either. In this case, they just represent a way to organise a stream of hashes into a final proof of authenticity attested to by the hardware and verifiable by anyone (who has access to the chain), content frame by frame (or prob something like each key frame) by a simple hash of the data.

    4. Re:Deep Fakes by HiThere · · Score: 1

      What magic method is the AI supposed to use to determine that a particular video is fake? If it's "the eyes aren't properly blinking" the faker can then learn to blink the eyes. Etc.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    5. Re:Deep Fakes by Megane · · Score: 1

      It can tell from the pixels, and from having seen deepfakes before.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  20. Lawmakers don't have many facets by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    Lawmakers don't have many facets, maybe as few as two: graft and porn. I can see how they might project that onto society in general.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  21. Deepfakes aren't even needed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The shallow fakes worked just fine. The half-scrupulous aren't even a target.

  22. Just imagine the new Porn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that this will be able to create

  23. That's hammered into private investigators by raymorris · · Score: 2

    That's something that was said over and over again in my private investigator and security officer training.

    You DON'T tell the client "yes I caught your spouse cheating on you with his ex". You write notes as its happening if possible saying "I observed a white sedan park near 124 Oak Street". It's possible that the car isn't the subject's car, it only looks similar. It's possible that the suspected companion doesn't currently live at that address. It's possible that the subject went there to meet with his ex-brother-in-law about a business deal. You report only what you directly observe.

  24. What you can do and can't do by Dwedit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What could be possible:

    * Cryptographic signatures on raw data leaving a camera, or Cryptographic signatures on the default recording app as the videos/photos are taken

    Probably won't help that much though, but might help to identify unedited footage.

    * Give images/videos timestamps signed by a third party immediately as they are taken

    This can prove that a piece of information existed no earlier than that time.

    None of these can thwart recording a video screen playing back pre-edited video.

    1. Re:What you can do and can't do by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Trusted third parties are expensive and usually unworkable. Cameras signing things will not provide any security at all, as they are easily hacked.

      We will just have to learn to deal with this. There really is no other way.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:What you can do and can't do by Z80a · · Score: 1

      Compress your videos with Mpeg or similar.
      If someone overlay something over your video, even if it's a "deepfake" you still can, as it's done with pictures check for differences on the compression artifacts.

    3. Re:What you can do and can't do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compress your videos with Mpeg or similar.
      If someone overlay something over your video, even if it's a "deepfake" you still can, as it's done with pictures check for differences on the compression artifacts.

      Only works if the video editing software isn't specifically tuned to create/mask the artifacts.
      It will essentially be an arms race between faking and detecting fakes.

    4. Re:What you can do and can't do by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Trusted third parties are expensive and usually unworkable. Cameras signing things will not provide any security at all, as they are easily hacked.

      So there will need to be some kind of hacking detection built into cameras. A write-only store which keeps track of changes to the internal flash, for example. In order to prove the validity of a video you'll have to produce both the video and the camera. This should be useful at least in keeping the police from tampering with body cam footage.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:What you can do and can't do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is actually a decent use for blockchain. Register signed/checksummed videos on the chain. This way you could prove at least which videos were created in which sequence. Though you can't prove that the original was not manipulated.

    6. Re:What you can do and can't do by gweihir · · Score: 1

      That has all been tied before. The only hardware in existence that offers a reasonable protection and could do the functionality you describe is a full HSM (Hardware Security Module) at something like $50'000 and upwards. All other approaches have been hacked successfully, and I have a nagging suspicion that HSMs have not only because they are to expensive for hackers to get their hands on as you would probably have to burn 3-4 for a successful hack. They are also not sold to the general public.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:What you can do and can't do by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Trusted third parties are expensive and usually unworkable. Cameras signing things will not provide any security at all, as they are easily hacked.

      I don't think you understand what he's talking about. We already have certificate authorities working just fine, some of them for free (e.g. Let's Encrypt). His notion isn't much different than what we already have with SSL/TLS, and hacking the camera wouldn't actually get you much of anything.

      Hacking the camera wouldn't allow you to change the file, since doing so would invalidate the cryptographic signature on the file. Hacking the camera wouldn't destroy copies of the file that had already been exported. Hacking the camera wouldn't destroy an investigator's ability to link a copy of the file to that camera. In fact, other than perhaps allowing you to delete the file before it's ever shared (good luck with that, since how's a hacker supposed to know to delete a file that hasn't yet been shared?), hacking the camera wouldn't really do much of anything at all, other than leave behind a trail of obvious evidence that someone had tried to alter things after the fact.

      If someone had hacked the camera in advance, it'd be possible for them to change its key to mimic someone else's, but that's why those keys are kept private and only exist in silicon. We've had implementations that address that problem in a secure fashion and on a mass market basis, and we've had them for the better part of a decade at this point (e.g. Apple's Secure Enclave silicon in every iPhone), so this isn't anything novel we're talking about here.

      These aren't difficult problems. They're already solved, in fact. It's just that we haven't applied our solutions to these workflows yet.

    8. Re:What you can do and can't do by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, all the nativity of those that have no clue what they are talking about and think security is easy. Have a look into the relevant literature and then come back. Here is a starting point: The public x.509 certificate system is badly broken, and you can even get EV certificates for a fake or wrong identity with minimal effort.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:What you can do and can't do by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      You have yet to actually suggest what a harmful attack would even accomplish, let alone the means to accomplish it. While I touched on some of the means by which we could do this stuff, the overarching point I was making was that the concern you raised doesn’t allow for a bad actor to actually do anything harmful enough to warrant your claims that it’s unworkable and gets us nothing in terms of security.

      Discussing flaws in a hypothetical device is pointless when the flaws don’t even expose a means to cause harm.

    10. Re:What you can do and can't do by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Bla, bla, bla. Seriously?

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  25. Docoring photos is as old as photos themselves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They were never "strong evidence".
    I think everyone knows the pictures in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonperson that show how Stalin made people "nonperson". (The inspiration for the unperson of "1984".)

    In fact, the entire legal system uses nothing but scientifically invalid "proof". Real science knows that all we have, is statistically significant observation of a pattern. Most of the time, we do not even have that, but merely anecdotal evidence of that statistically significant observation (in a paper) and anecdotal evidence of other peers having statistically significant observation too (=peer review).
    Our legal system doesn't even remotely adhere to that. Basically, it's all bullshit. All of it. Every type of "proof" they have. None of that would ever stand up in a scientific community.

    1. Re:Docoring photos is as old as photos themselves by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In fact, the entire legal system uses nothing but scientifically invalid "proof"... Our legal system doesn't even remotely adhere to that.

      The threshold for legal conviction in the US (and a few other countries) is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "absolute proof" for good reason. If you demand 100% proof, you would almost never convict anyone, and that wouldn't serve justice either. The legal system has to carefully balance the ability to obtain a conviction when warranted versus protection against false accusations. Real life tends to be a bit messier than a peer-reviewed scientific paper, and rarely deals in absolutes.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:Docoring photos is as old as photos themselves by HiThere · · Score: 1

      That's the official standard all right. But it doesn't have much to do with how verdicts are often related. Do you really find it difficult to believe that the prosecutor intentionally fudged some evidence and withheld other evidence? It happens all the time, and has frequently been proven, admittedly often years after the conviction.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  26. That only shifts the problem. It stays the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who watches the watchdogs? ... The answer is: No matter how long you make the chain of watchdogs watching watchdogs ... In the end, it still requires YOU, personally, to verify anything. Even if it is only the reliability and trustworthiness of that watchdog.

    In this case, for example, you're forgetting, that digital signatures either require a CA ... (Which is an "argument from authority" fallacy. Or simpler: Who watches the CA?) ... or a web of trust (like PGP), with a flawless chain between you and that signature.

    Otherwise, digital signatures are security theater, and actually more dangerous than not having any verification at all.

  27. Pictures don't lie. by grep+-v+'.*'+* · · Score: 2

    Way back when, when we first had cameras, that was the saying. Because it was really hard to make a convincing "wrong" photo. (Early: One, Two, Three, Four.

    And then came along tape, and audio editing, and auto-tune and computerized voice editing. And Hatsune Miku, who not only doesn't exist, her VOICE doesn't even exist: She was created by taking vocal samples [which] all contain a single Japanese phonic that, when strung together, creates full lyrics and phrases. Video. The people with glowing green sticks, though, are real.

    And now with movies have placed people's heads on other's bodies, never mind body-doubles. The trick is that's it's becoming better, cheaper and more widespread to create. (And I *SWEAR* that people are more gullible now-a-days than they used to be. Or maybe it's because things just move so much faster.) So we're back to a century or so ago: just because there's an audio/video of it, doesn't mean it's HAS to be true.

    No worries though, since you're innocent until proven guilty, which has worked so well with MeToo and everything else in the last few years. We'll all just have to have a 2-way shoulder mounted camera that does a real-time blockchain video feed to verify where we are all of the time and that it's really is US in the video.

    Now if blockchain would only run at Visa-level transaction speeds instead of a slow 8mm Movie Motion Picture Camera. Oh, and that's 7 BitCoin transactions system-wide and not just per camera. The limit for Litecoin is 56 TPS and the limit for Bitcoin is 7. Visa: 24,000 TPS (Link. And far be it your mounted camera loses WiFi/Cell connection or runs out of power.

    --
    If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
    1. Re:Pictures don't lie. by jittles · · Score: 1

      Way back when, when we first had cameras, that was the saying. Because it was really hard to make a convincing "wrong" photo.

      This is not true. In Germany, the cinema is very popular. I've seen all of Ned Nederlander's films... including when he was known as "Little Neddy Knickers." It was this man who inspired me to learn the art of the quick draw. I looked up to this man. I studied his every move. It was my dream to be as fast as Ned Nederlander. I practiced every day for hours and hours. He was a god to me. Then I found out about movie tricks. Trick photography. I was crushed.

  28. This has nothing to do with surveillance by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    it's the ability to create a doctored video that makes it look like your opponent said something they did not. You could litter the net with these and destroy the political career of anyone. A person who would do such a thing would be inherently dishonest and evil. Left unchecked this will drive out the few remaining honest people in politics. I'm sure the folks who are left in politics will support a surveillance state.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:This has nothing to do with surveillance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's the ability to create a doctored video that makes...the...political...Left...support a surveillance state.

      People have been doing this for a long time.

      Nearly every piece of news about Trump quotes him without video or quotation marks. Soon they can drop that pretense too.

    2. Re:This has nothing to do with surveillance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You meant to say "left unchecked nobody will believe video of politicians any more"

  29. We figured out stuff before video existed ... by drnb · · Score: 2

    Agreed. The problem is that with photos, video and voice all untrustable, what is left? How can someone come to an independent conclusion about anything?

    The same way we did before the proliferation of movie/video cameras and audio recorders. These are only very recent inventions.

    1. Re:We figured out stuff before video existed ... by InPursuitOfTruth · · Score: 1

      Eye witness testimony? Great. It is a good thing we never had a problem with false accusers and poor perception.

    2. Re:We figured out stuff before video existed ... by joe_frisch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We used to have sources that the majority of people believed in. Professors. Clergy, civic leaders. Not saying the trust was deserved, but at least people mostly agreed on facts. (even if they were wrong)

    3. Re: We figured out stuff before video existed ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NPM is based on mistrust and control, so not anymore.

    4. Re:We figured out stuff before video existed ... by drnb · · Score: 2

      Eye witness testimony? Great. It is a good thing we never had a problem with false accusers and poor perception.

      Right because ...
      (1) We had nothing other than eye witness testimony, never that stuff called evidence.
      (2) And video eliminated false accusers and perception because actions are never subject to interpretation and the camera/mic catches all, its not like what happened before the video started or after it ended, what is happening out of frame, what beyond mic detection fills in unknown gaps.

      Videos gets faked all the time for political purposes and people are largely gullible and believe them. Few have the knowledge relevant to interpret a situation, not unlike eyewitness testimony.

    5. Re:We figured out stuff before video existed ... by drnb · · Score: 1

      We used to have sources that the majority of people believed in. Professors. Clergy, civic leaders. Not saying the trust was deserved, but at least people mostly agreed on facts. (even if they were wrong)

      The world is full of evidence beyond video. There is no need to resort to leaders, clergy and professors who are offering opinions rather than evidence based conclusions.

    6. Re:We figured out stuff before video existed ... by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      It's far worse than that. How, exactly, do eye witnesses tend to share their experiences with people? Through videos. Which can be faked.

      So now not only do we have the problem of video fakes of politicians and politicians claiming real video is fake, we have the problem of eye witnesses being faked on video, and video of eye witnesses being called fakes.

      On the flip side, maybe print journalism will have a resurgence, as we're headed back to the reputation of an individual who talked to eye witnesses being the only reliable way to spread that news.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  30. This is laughable by Mr.+Dollar+Ton · · Score: 0

    The deepfakes that the US intelligence produces have destroyed every faced of many societies across the globe, and the "US lawmakers", that is, the corrupt bunch that orchestrated these didn't even care.

    All they care about is losing the monopoly to making deepfakes.

    1. Re:This is laughable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone Repugnican got very butthurt.

  31. Stalker decoys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a citizen of WA state, when I tune in to the local evening news, & see newscasters & reporters dressed like cheap whores from chinatown, I know somethin's not right. Perhaps this AI deepfake shit is behind it? The only reasonable explanation I can fathom is that they're 'stalker' decoys.

  32. They are just pushing for more power by gweihir · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And what gives them power? Laws criminalizing things. There is no way in this universe they can stop this. But they can profit from it and they are certainly trying to.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  33. when politicians panic... by Kwirl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    its usually because something has come out that they haven't figured out how to manipulate or abuse. when this technology has fallen out of the news, you will know that at least some political bodies are abusing it for their benefit.

  34. The best defense is a strong offense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The best defense is a strong offense. Our law makers are focusing on the effect of deep fake AI technology toward our own society, but the same technology can be applied toward our adversaries, showing Putin and Xi Jinping in compromising positions doing things that ruin their reputations and weaken their standing in their own countries. Deep fakes can further be used to play our adversaries off against each other. Law makers should be funding deep fake AI research rather than curbing it.

  35. There is only one solution by petes_PoV · · Score: 1
    We will just have to start raising a generation of politicians who have reputations for telling the truth. Politicians who ordinary people will believe, who have integrity and the trust of the population. Leaders who don't commit criminal acts, shag anything that moves or accept illegal payments from all and sundry.

    Ones who don't try to weasel out of situations with denials, false claims (I was not told about .... ), redefinition of meaning or refusing to answer questions.

    And if they can be seen not to be corrupt or self-serving then when they are confronted by "deepfakes" of them acting as normal politicians do now, we will know that they are the victims, not the criminals.
    [ File under: fantasy land ]

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:There is only one solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The insistence that our politicians be absolutely and completely honest means that the only people who become politicians are those willing to lie about how honest they are.

  36. evidence to what by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there is no such thing as objective truth anyway. truth is whatever the person left standing says it is after the dust settles.
    we may as well get comfortable with the idea that the only real authority is violence, whether monopolized by the state or
    meted out by whoever is best equipped to rise to the top of the pecking order.

  37. Re: TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are suggesting Trump is real. I'd like to suggest he has always been a computer generated image. That will make him all that much easier to dethrone. Er, to uninstall...

  38. 30 years late by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    I work with a lot of people from different backgrounds. They watch things like movies all the time and they see things like science fiction and see it as purely Hollywood and not simply forseeing the ambitions of many creative people around them.

    I have a habit of writing documents describing technology that I would implement myself given the time, budget and drive. Examples of this would be RAID systems capable of online live healing and automated scaling with almost zero risk for loss due to transactional strip databases across asymmetric disk sizes with additional attention placed on "intelligent" wear leveling. Another would be a means of employing statistical human behavioral analysis and prerendering technologies based on MPEG spatial and temporal scaling to within MPEG transport streams delivered over HTTP to optimize bitrate based on predicted and perceived areas of interest while watermarking ingress video in such a manor that would survive multiple generations of reencoding.

    I release these papers to the public domain which don't tend to take me more than a few hours to write and then companies like Netflix and storage vendors invest in formalizing my theories and implementing the technology to great financial gain to themselves. And the result is that I get to use or buy the technology which I envisioned would benefit me.

    This is no different than watching a science fiction film. People making these films are releasing their ideas publicly for all to see. Even today, individuals and military funded organizations work towards implementing many ideas from comic books (bullet proof fabrics for example), Marvel movies (search for Iron Man suit), and science fiction (EMP drive is an example).

    We need to stop attempting to assess threats and regulate at a government level after decades of R&D have occurred after someone in the cinema makes some cool technology a kind of holy grail for engineers and scientists.

    I work on full body scanners as a hobby. I love the idea of employing three dimensional covnets to 3d sonograms provided by full body airport security scanners to identify medical conditions such as high blood pressures, tumors, damaged tissues, dental anomalies etc... I believe very strongly many of the worlds illnesses are related to severe shortcomings in doctors and more specifically general practitioners. They need to be replaced as soon as possible by machines since a machine can perform a full body scan multiple times a week that is far more thorough and accurate than these fools in their offices who wait until lumps are big enough to see or feel before treating them.

    Consider how much money the governments of the world would save on medical treatment of their people if we knew that a cancerous tumor was beginning to form within days of it starting as opposed to waiting a year or two before symptoms became visible. Most cancers would be treatable with little more than a pill or even a focused laser. Instead we have these idiot GPs with their blood pressure devices and thermometers and idiotic blood tests.

    Will the stuff I'm working on happen... yes it will. But when will the governments eventually get on board and consider what it means at a federal level? When big pharm is pissed that their poisons for Chemo aren't selling, when universities like Harvard can't find jobs for their medical graduates, etc... they don't focus on that now.

    And to be honest... police complain about encryption causing them problems. Tough shit... adapt. Police and lawyers will complain that videos that are perfect fakes are making more or less all video evidence insubmissible... tough shit.. adapt. People like Jennifer Lawrence and Emma Watson are really upset that first people try to steal their nudie pictures from their phones... now they complain that instead of trying to get their hands on real videos and pictures, people are making deep fakes of them... deal.

    Here's the thing... there are pervs everywhere. Hell I'll admit to being a perv at least at the

  39. Re: TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like he's about to turn on Podesta.

  40. easy! by ooloorie · · Score: 1

    Just make it illegal! That always fixes every problem!

  41. Seeing Isn't Believing by kenwd0elq · · Score: 1

    Anything electronic can be faked, and so we need to start encouraging people to UNDERSTAND that "Seeing Isn't Believing". Just because you saw it on a screen doesn't mean it's true.

    It's all phony.

  42. Re:TRUMP by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    the next congress will line their pockets also

  43. No they don't. by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People will currently believe absolutely anything provided you get the narrative right and appeal to their emotions. There's no need to even doctor videos anymore. You just have to tell them.

    1. Re:No they don't. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      If only our mainstream media hadn't flushed their credibility down the toilet by openly supporting the most openly corrupt candidate to ever run for president, we might have had a chance. But no. They aren't impartial truth tellers, they are political activists. It sure sucks they decided to do this, but I suppose we'll come out stronger in the end. When random people on YouTube have better analysis and more accurate reporting, why turn on the TV?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:No they don't. by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Our mainstream media didn't flush anything. As said people will believe absolutely anything. One of those things they are told to believe is that the mainstream media has no credibility, and they are told this by the highest authority of one of the world's most powerful nations.

    3. Re:No they don't. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DRONALDGBM DTRUZMFFF!!!

    4. Re:No they don't. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Which election are you thinking about, and which media. There isn't one in which all the media were on the same side, and there isn't one in which the most corrupt politician didn't get a lot of support. This is certainly true all the way back to Jackson, and possibly further.

      The media used to be less powerful, because the politicians used to directly talk to people. This gave us high-toned political campaigns featuring competing slogans like:
      "Ma, ma, where's my pa?
        Gone to the white house ha ha ha!"
      and
      "Blaine, Blaine, James G. Blaine,
        Continental liar from the state of Main"

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    5. Re:No they don't. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      You joking? The media came out as full on partisans for Hillary Clinton. They made it very clear who we must vote for, a corrupt piece of shit.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re:No they don't. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Having a partisan agenda does not affect the credibility of the media. There's a big difference between selective reporting and actively making shit up.
      And again, the media didn't flush anything. There has been political bias in the mainstream media since the days of kids selling newspapers for a nickel on the streetside.

      But it is quite fascinating that you lump "mainstream media" and then point to supporting only one political party. I take it you have some bias of your own, where supporters of the "other" side are no longer mainstream?

      Physician heal thyself.

    7. Re:No they don't. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1
      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    8. Re:No they don't. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      So you pick one news outlet and posted a lot of examples of them not actually lying about anything?

      I'm not sure you're trying to prove your point, but you've successfully succeed in proving mine.

    9. Re:No they don't. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      CNN deceptively edited a rioter's speech. What she did was call for the rioters to move their rioting.

      > Burnin down shit ain't going to help nothin! Y'all burnin' down shit we need in our community. Take that shit to the suburbs. Burn that shit down! We need our shit! We need our weaves. I don't wear it. But we need it.

      Citation: https://twitter.com/DeeconX/st...
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-8Cn6boqcA

      CNN apology:

      > We shorthanded sister's quote. Unintentionally gave the impression she was calling for peace everywhere.

      Unintentionally my ass.

      CNN Cuts Live Interview When Facts About Refugees Are Brought Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      Fake protest staged by CNN film crew at London Bridge terrorist attack scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      CNN gets caught red-handed telling their focus group what to say https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      CNN conducts fake interview in parking lot https://www.theatlantic.com/na...

      Top 10 Times CNN Reported Fake News https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      CNN reporter's response when asked why CNN hadn't corrected false gun article: "not playing your game man." http://thefederalist.com/2017/...

      CNN threatens man into silence with threats of doxxing https://i.redd.it/jyw161j3wntz...

      CNN on family leave before and after Trump backed it https://imgoat.com/thumb/e296a...

      Media shows why it's so mistrusted after falsified Trump fish-feeding 'story' http://thehill.com/opinion/whi...
      CNN: Trump feeds fish, winds up pouring entire box of food into koi pond

      The CNN example includes edited video that zooms in on Trump to only show his face and prevents the viewer from seeing what Japanese Prime Minister Abe was doing at a key point of the short event.

      Why was Abe edited out? Perhaps because he took his entire box of fish food and dumped it into the pond. Trump followed Abe's lead and did the same seconds later.

      But with the zoom edit cutting Abe out, the viewer or reader - with an assist from the caption Â-- is led to believe only Trump dumped his box. The media was not only blatantly overt, but intentional in its deception.

      The greatest danger to our nation comes from a free press that chooses sides in the political process. And that has openly and unapologetically taken place.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    10. Re:No they don't. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol you lying queef.

    11. Re:No they don't. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Still gunning for one media outlet. *golfclap*

    12. Re:No they don't. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd think that, given everyone watches video that's 99% fake *all the time* on TV and at the movies, we shouldn't need to be having this conversation. It's been more than 20 years since CGI has been poor enough to be easily spotted. Last year we recorded some video for my son's school project. It involved using a smartphone to mix 3 video streams and green-screen him in realtime while recording him. A *smartphone*.

  44. Solution by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · · Score: 2

    The cat is out of the bag, now learn to live this way.

    1. Re:Solution by miekal · · Score: 2

      If I were in a position to worry about deep fakes I would pre-emptively release a deluge of preposterous fakes to amuse and inform (and promote). Like you suggest - adapt

  45. Problem was already solved in USSR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In USSR and Latvia the video recordings were not usable as evidence in court. I don't know how about photos and audio recordings, but in early 2000's one man I know was set free because only evidence was video recording of him doing criminal act. The criminal case was dismissed due to lack of evidence. It means that there was a criminal act, but he was not found guilty because insufficient evidence.

    I think society as a whole should treat all video, audio recordings as well as all forms of pictures as fakes. No expert can dismiss forgery, because state-sponsored forgers know what forensic expert will look for in forgery and create perfect fakes that pass scrutiny of forensic experts. Deepfakes are just a technological progress.

  46. Complete Nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This another example of government blaming technology. We already have tools to create fakes. AI is just another tool.

    1. Re:Complete Nonsense by HiThere · · Score: 1

      "Deep fakes" can reputedly be created a lot more cheaply and consistently than can a hand edited video stream.

      Calling the process that does it AI is technically correct, but currently it's far from a general AI and doesn't understand the objective context of the pixels it is editing. That will come eventually, however. So worrying about future developments is proper.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  47. "lemme face this for you" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    all "famous" people, the publicity craving time-wasters, are probably rubbing their hands in glee:
    soon we will see the likes of kim kardashian as the face of the president, elon musk, kim young and what not.

    even the clubberment critters going on record denoucing the demon nature of fake photons will most probably will be possessed by one of the demons infecting the media landscape ...
    link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  48. Re:R A Y M O R R I S I S A L Y I N G F A G G O T N by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, asshole: snitches get stitches.

  49. If and when we finally see by mark_reh · · Score: 0

    the pee-pee tape, Trump will call it a deep fake and his followers will believe him.

    We've been heating plastics in microwave ovens for at least 2 generations now, and all the "reproductive harm" caused by the BPA is causing us to get dumber and dumber.

  50. Politiicans say they Must stand vilagant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because some one may acutally post a deep fake of of one of our genuine perversions.

  51. The expert should explain it, not proclaim it by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > And the jury (who have absolutely no clue how to tell which expert is reliable)

    The best experts will explain to the jury how they can look at the evidence and draw conclusions, rarher than just proclaiming a conclusion.

    As one example, a blood spatter expert can demonstrate, either live or on video, that slinging a wet sponge at high speed leaves a pattern of very small droplets, while carrying it or slinging it slowly let's much larger drops form. The jury can then see for themselves whether the crime scene has tiny droplets (high speed) or large drops (low speed). Thr expert can show that at low speed the drops make circles on the surface, at high speed they streak as the impact the surface.

    If the experts show and and explain, rather than tell, the jury can see for for themselves how things actually work.

    1. Re:The expert should explain it, not proclaim it by HiThere · · Score: 1

      For "best" I think you should substitute "most convincing". A lot of the traditionally accepted forensic tests have never been properly validated. Some which were recently tested failed attempts to validate. (IIRC one that failed was correlating scars on a bullet and the barrel it was fired through...and that one *ought* to have worked.) But this doesn't mean that the technique that has failed validation won't be used in some other case, or that cases where it was used as "convincing evidence" will now be thrown out.

      And often evidence that is sent off to a lab for a perfectly valid test will return the answer desired by the prosecution (the usual submitter) even though a repeat test by someone who doesn't know what answer was desired won't find the same answer. Your guess about the reason for this is as well founded as mine, but it makes me quite dubious about most forensic tests. I suspect corruption at some point of the system, but just where the evidence doesn't usually reveal.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  52. They should be glad by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    When the next video comes out, showing them saying Nazi/racist/whatever stuff, they can just claim:
    Deepfake news!

  53. Re: TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whoosh

  54. Just like photoshop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just like photoshop changed how trusted photos could be.

    Realistic video can show exactly what President Clinton and "that woman" did. It can also show what President Trump and all-those-50-women did.

    It might even show what that SCOTUS nominee is alleged to have done in 1982.

    Nothing can show the despicable things that GOP and DNC leaders have done, but we get to live that daily with all the govt abuses.

    So basically, nothing has really changed, except ugly people can be the stand-ins for these movies since famous people's faces will be overlayed.

  55. Nothing will change by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    They can already get away with blatant lying and fool 51% of voters. We are seeing just how extreme 1 side can go with it already.

    Profound affects on everybody's lives are already happening. It's so fast that the majority are aware of the shift; but as it becomes the new normal it'll be hardly any different over time than the gradual slide we've had since WW2; when weaponized psychology became widespread.

    It'll probably take another horrific shameful war before "Lying Press" becomes a taboo phrase in this culture like it did in Germany. They know what that helped create; people here do not-- hell, we named our unified federal police Fatherland Security - some neo-nazi must feel great having slipped that one bye everybody.

    1. Re:Nothing will change by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

      They can already get away with blatant lying and fool 51% of voters. We are seeing just how extreme 1 side can go with it already.

      Profound affects on everybody's lives are already happening. It's so fast that the majority are aware of the shift; but as it becomes the new normal it'll be hardly any different over time than the gradual slide we've had since WW2; when weaponized psychology became widespread.

      It'll probably take another horrific shameful war before "Lying Press" becomes a taboo phrase in this culture like it did in Germany. They know what that helped create; people here do not-- hell, we named our unified federal police Fatherland Security - some neo-nazi must feel great having slipped that one bye everybody.

      I don't know that they fooled 51%. Thanks to voter rolls purges, gerrymandering, denying rights to vote to people who do certain things that a populace presumed to vote a particular way get caught and successfully prosecuted for WAY disproportionately creates a situation that can only be called a democracy (or a republic) sarcastically. HOWEVER, I think even among those who DID vote for the End of Civilization As We Know It, (if I can borrow a turn of phrase, from whom specifically I regrettably cannot recall,) a lot were probably NOT fooled. They knew who and WHAT, more to the point, they were voting for, and I think of THOSE people, some portion were looking for payback for all those who voted for or supported Barrack Obama, for America having had a black President.

      I think some of them looked at the options, and said via their votes, "oh YEAH? well, I'll see your black," (he was half white too*,) "Muslim," (he wasn't, not that that does or even should matter,) "foreign-born," (again, he wasn't, but you can't force knowledge into a closed mind,) "President, and raise you a crazy, stupid, incompetent, Russian-Mafia-backed/controlled 'president'! HA! Now what, huh?!?"

      The rest of the ones who supported him and weren't fooled, (I'm sure some WERE absolutely fooled, but again, some were not,) knew who and more to the point, again, WHAT they were voting for, and didn't care... they just wanted to heave a giant, stupid, orange BRICK through the window of American politics, and honestly, it's hard for me to blame them at least for WANTING to do that. They saw the system as wrong, as rigged, as being only a sad caricature of a democracy or representative republic or whatever you wanna call it, and they wanted to give the people who have been rigging the system and ripping them off and expecting their loyalty a big, fat, orange middle finger. That's Donald Trump, I think, to some of them, (note THEM, not US; I didn't vote for that pathetic fucker,) Trump was their big, fat, fully extended, lone middle finger. Again, I can totally sympathize with the DESIRE even if I disapprove of the action. The system certainly seemed to NEED a brick heaved through its window, and for ME, that brick was an independent (or so I believed him to be,) Senator from the Great State of Vermont. A brick that would not only have broken the window, but then CLEANED FUCKING HOUSE. Instead the so-called "Democratic" (hahaha) party tried to shove Hilariously Rotten Clinton, (who can't be TOO upset with how things turned out, after all, it's not like all those people who paid her legalized-bribes had to be repaid, so she got to keep all those nice "speaking" fees... from Gold Man Sacks and whoever all else paid her whatever other money she took, to screw us over if she managed to slither her way into the White House,) down our throats, and we, many of us, refused.

      (I voted instead for the only person running in the 2016 US General Election who had any qualifications for the office at all, even if I disagreed with him on a lot of things, and was embarrassed by how he'd apparently not bothered to keep up with current events he might be asked about. I WANTED to vote for Jill Stein, but unfortunately I can read, and I take the responsibility that comes

      --
      Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
    2. Re:Nothing will change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. Because your 49% are immune to magical thinking and only believe the facts.

    3. Re:Nothing will change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah because it could not possibly be due to a reasoned argument. It has to be race.

      Allow me to clear that up for you.

      I voted for Obama the first time around because I wanted to give a black guy a chance. Is that racism? Sure it's "reverse racism".

      I then watched what he did and didn't vote for him the second time around.

      I watched Mr Trumps speeches and he said a bunch of things that are true: many Americans are being adversely impacted by China and by illegal immigrants.

      So I voted for Mr Trump. And yes, I know he is an asshole.

    4. Re:Nothing will change by bussdriver · · Score: 1

      Trump was NOT a middle finger. Aside from the immature childish behavior of an FU vote (which is fitting given Trump's a man-child;) a middle finger is a huge understatement. Voting for Trump in protest is like a teenage girl running away out of spite with the 1st man who hits on her and ending up gang raped and thrown in some ditch. Yeah, that sure showed them...

      Or the cattle/sheep escaping from their farmer for using and looking down on them; escaping to the butcher who reminds them of a pig so he must be one of them...

      Every election game is rigged on multiple levels; with the "undecided" idiots in the middle swaying it either way... and on a bigger level the 2 choices are filtered so the established elite are untouchable.

      DN: Honestly, I've not been to DN for years now. It is too depressing and I listened to it daily since 2000. If the news was competent, they'd all be like that and the masses would have risen up and fixed things. It's proof at just how dangerously powerful the news is when it no longer exists.

    5. Re:Nothing will change by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

      Trump was NOT a middle finger. Aside from the immature childish behavior of an FU vote (which is fitting given Trump's a man-child;) a middle finger is a huge understatement. Voting for Trump in protest is like a teenage girl running away out of spite with the 1st man who hits on her and ending up gang raped and thrown in some ditch. Yeah, that sure showed them...

      Or the cattle/sheep escaping from their farmer for using and looking down on them; escaping to the butcher who reminds them of a pig so he must be one of them...

      Every election game is rigged on multiple levels; with the "undecided" idiots in the middle swaying it either way... and on a bigger level the 2 choices are filtered so the established elite are untouchable.

      DN: Honestly, I've not been to DN for years now. It is too depressing and I listened to it daily since 2000. If the news was competent, they'd all be like that and the masses would have risen up and fixed things. It's proof at just how dangerously powerful the news is when it no longer exists.

      For some voters, voting for Trump, I'll stand by my assessment that it WAS a middle finger. And you of course have a good point. For SOME voters, voting for him was like being your erstwhile rebellious teenage girl, running away from home, and being abducted, drugged, beaten, gang-raped, urinated and defecated upon, then having her internal organs harvested and "waking up alone in a dirty motel room, in a bathtub full of ice," etc.

      I think on-balance, most of the people who voted for him are worse off now, even if they don't realize it, in a lot of ways. But it's not ALL bad news, not for everyone.

      After all, Trump's version of "presiding," if you can call it that, has been good for some. Like all the people he's helping by facilitating various misbehavior, by the rolling back of environmental regulations and allowing some people to do further damage that is ultimately beneficial for them financially, etc. The rich have, I think, by and large, done pretty well and managed to get richer than they were two years ago, (not like they were becoming dangerously impoverished under Obama, but my point here is, it's NOT happening under Trump's, for want of a better word, "administration," either). It's not like they're all broke and homeless now. Odds are they'd do okay whoever got elected, as that's how this system is rigged now. The only meaningful question for THEM, is, can they speculate how MUCH worse or better they'd be doing if someone else got into office?

      I'm not defending anything he's done, apart from managing, (I am obliged out of a sense of honesty to pay him the following sincere, if backhanded compliment,) NOT to get us ALL killed. Yet. Most Americans alive in January 2016 are still alive today. This is FAR better than I'd had the heart to even HOPE for. Seems being a "president" is easier than it looked, OR, having a total fuckup kinda sorta doing the job, when he can be bothered, isn't as dangerous or damaging given all the various guardrails in-place. That's certainly a good sign.

      Of course this does NOT make up for thousands who have died for no reason besides his malice and/or incompetence, the fecklessness and uselessness of his underlings, etc., but the point stands, I say... MOST of us are still here. Even the vast majority, I believe. World War III has NOT happened just yet as of the moment of this writing, though the night is young, and there are years to go, it appears, before we're safe. It does not excuse family separations, kids in cages, outrageous fraud, waste, and abuse throughout the Executive Branch, etc. literally ad nauseam,... but credit must be given where credit is due. He hasn't killed us all yet, and for that, a slow, soft golf-clap is in order, with appropriate amounts of sarcasm for what a low bar he's somehow managed to clear.

      Clap. Clap. Clap.

      It is a pathetically low bar, and one that is far below where it would, could, or even SHOULD be set even for some

      --
      Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
  56. Plausible deniability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That really wasn't me having sex with your mom and sister at the same time.It's a deepfake.

  57. And you don't think that is fucked up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is "reasonable doubt" anyway? The decider's neural triggers causing strong enough emotions that he also *wants* that to be true, which he can "find" to be true?

    The whole thing is silly, and it is obvious to any sane person. We just comfortly cling to this ignorant view that we all always had, because we can't handle actually properly solving this problem.

    (The proper solution is that reality is relative, and right and wrong are too. So there is no legitimate punishment, that is not itself a crime too. The only legitimate and fair thing you can do, is separate the disagreeing parties. But even that might only be fair from my own point of view. A for-profit murderer might see it as harm against him, if he can't murder other people anymore, even if he gets his own island of murderers.)

  58. Oh kid. Digital signing = snake oil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First of all, you can digitally sign your fake photo too.
    And you can take a real signed photo of a fake image/scene.

    But inherently, digital signing always comes down to blindly trusting some CA instead of blindly trusting some image.
    A CA is manipulated way easier, and an argument from authority fallacy anyway.
    (In a PGP web of trust, YOU are the CA, which is good. But you still need to have a chain of trust. Which is as "reliable" as communication via Chinese whispers. So it is still useless.)

    Stop struggling and clinging to the unscientific delusion of absolute truth and absolute right and wrong.
    It is pseudo-science at best. (Even among popular opinion of so-called scientists in the US, sadly.)
    Face the relativity of reality. And that you can't "know" anything for sure, let alone absolutely.

    Otherwise, you support a harmful delusion and are willfully ignorant.

  59. Re: TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    un-whoosh

  60. PhotoProof is an attempt at a solution by daveking · · Score: 1

    See https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/do... for details on the scheme and comments on prior solutions.

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  61. Examples of deep fake tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2-minute papers have several vids on the rapidly growing capability to do this.

    https://youtu.be/GRQuRcpf5Gc

  62. Truth isn't truth? by CaroKann · · Score: 1

    Maybe Giuliani is right when he says "Truth isn't truth".

    When anything and everything, such as photos, videos, audio, facts, etc., become as muddied and confused as a psychotic break, then does "Truth" still matter? When "Truth" becomes unknowable, then it becomes useless. You can only react to what you perceive. Like for a person having a psychotic break, that often means reacting in a chaotic or harmful way.

    I can't imagine what this will do to society. Perhaps society will react to things in ways more fitting to ancient times, when people had no idea how nature really worked, and chalked events up to the gods, fate, or the supernatural.

    1. Re:Truth isn't truth? by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

      Maybe Giuliani is right when he says "Truth isn't truth".

      When anything and everything, such as photos, videos, audio, facts, etc., become as muddied and confused as a psychotic break, then does "Truth" still matter? When "Truth" becomes unknowable, then it becomes useless. You can only react to what you perceive. Like for a person having a psychotic break, that often means reacting in a chaotic or harmful way.

      I can't imagine what this will do to society. Perhaps society will react to things in ways more fitting to ancient times, when people had no idea how nature really worked, and chalked events up to the gods, fate, or the supernatural.

      Was "Truth" unknowable, and hence useless, before the advent of photography and audio recording?

      As I've already mentioned in a previous post, losing these things as reliable and unimpeachable proof of the facts of a case won't demolish society, it will just require reverting to a paradigm of understanding and knowledge and trust, as existed before these technologies. We've done it before, hence, we can do it again. It just means an adjustment, just as the advent of these technologies did. I'll miss them, but it's a blessing in disguise. The use of photographic evidence, or sound recordings, etc., takes a lot of the humanity out of the discussion about what is true and what's not, and who's guilty and who's not, or at least not provably so.

      If you'd rather see 10 innocent men be hanged than risk one guilty man going free, as the saying goes, you might pine for the age of photographic and audio-recorded evidence. If, on the other hand, you'd rather deal with letting 10 guilty men go free than hang one innocent, you'll probably be pleased that we aren't going to have to pretend anymore, that just because you have someone "on-tape," that it means you know for a fact that what that tape seems to allege is true, actually IS. It just about never WAS, and now it definitely ISN'T.

      Incidentally, if anyone's interested in seeing what this technology is capeable of, there's a very entertaining podcast about it from a couple of guys named Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, called "Radiolab". https://www.wnycstudios.org/st... in this podcast, they watch someone put words into other people's mouths, just by feeding in a bunch of recordings, and make them say whatever they want them to, including in a video, etc. Scary stuff, really.

      Deep Fakes didn't destroy the faith we could put in pictures, recordings, and videos, since all could be altered, manipulated, or faked BEFORE that came along. It just makes the manipulation easy, and puts it within reach of most people, rather than letting it be the province of those with a LOT of know-how and a LOT of equipment. It just moved the bar that evidence has to clear way up... it didn't INVENT the bar. The bar was already there.

      Remember the War of the Worlds? It didn't take much to convince a WHOLE lot of people that aliens from another world were invading Earth. Today someone trying that, with that same specific level of sophistication, in today's world, would be LAUGHED at, at least here. We're all much too sophisticated to fall for that now. At least I like to think we are. Deep Fakes are troubling, but not the end of the world. We just will have to become a little more sophisticated, and find another way, a better way, to evaluate the truth or falsity of whatever we're seeing or hearing.

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      Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
  63. audio of Trump speaking Chinese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A couple of his grandchildren speak some Mandarin, but he does not. It was startling when I heard an audio in decent Chinese with Trumps voice. Fake generated from a deep learning ststem trained in Trump voice samples and Mandarin.

  64. The Running Man by TJHook3r · · Score: 1

    The most memorable use in film for me is The Running Man, where an autocracy implementing barbaric (and corrupt) punishments attempts to create footage showing our hero meeting his end. For a slice of 80's schlock it's actually a pretty decent guess at the future!

    1. Re:The Running Man by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

      The most memorable use in film for me is The Running Man, where an autocracy implementing barbaric (and corrupt) punishments attempts to create footage showing our hero meeting his end.
      For a slice of 80's schlock it's actually a pretty decent guess at the future!

      If I hadn't already commented in this thread, you'd get a +1 (Insightful). Then I'd wish for the ability to give you another +1. That's a really good point.

      For what that's worth.

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      Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
  65. clock sync is a huge problem itself by rapjr · · Score: 1

    Making sure the clock is set accurately is a huge problem in itself. Maybe satellite internet connections could solve that, but radio connections are often intermittent and clocks drift when left to run on their own and can be disrupted by electrical events.
    Some types of deep fake problems are only a problem for people whose faces are known and are no problem for everyone else. A fake video showing you proclaiming you are Jesus would elicit a "who cares" from most of the world. If you're well known though, it could be a problem. Other types of deep fakes need to get the details right to be convincing. The sun has to be at the right angle, the location needs to be right, the buildings need to be the right buildings, the flesh tones have to match, etc. See Hany Farid's work on detecting Photoshopping; the same can be done with video to detect deep fakes that combine different elements.
    My guess is it is mainly people who have a known face and are widely known (e.g., politicians) who are the ones concerned about deep fakes, because even if the fake is detectable, that doesn't stop people from thinking (or wishing) it was true. In other words, it will be mostly used to make fun of the famous. Using it to pull off crimes or convince large populations that someone important has done something bad would require a very high bar be met by the fake. One simple solution for the famous might be to continuously track their location using a tamper resistant device so they can prove where they were. If the location track shows them moving, and the fake video shows them standing still...

  66. Meh, not really. by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

    I don't see this as demolishing our society.

    It will simply require that we, as a group, come to realize that video and audio recordings, once seen as the gold-standard in unimpeachable truth-telling about the facts of a case, will be relegated to the same dubious reliability as the "I seed it!" guy.

    "I done seed it, I seed the whole thang! It was like this, right?" ~ I Seed The Whole Thang Guy.

    They once had a saying, "don't believe everything you read," pointing out that people who WRITE things aren't necessarily writing the truth. Sometimes they write things, (specifically, in newspapers, magazines, and books,) that are accidentally not true due to implicit bias, due to the writer having been fooled or tricked, or due to the writer simply not having all the facts. Then some writers are just plain, flat-out, making shit up. Hence, you can't believe every single thing you read.

    We will, as a society, simply have to come to grips with the fact that with the introduction, spread, and ever-widening availability to anyone and proliferation around the interwebz of "AI/DeepFake" technology, anyone can be made, almost trivially, to seem to be saying or doing anything in a sound or video recording. (Seen DOING? Oh, yes. You just take video of ONE person doing something, and plaster someone else's HEAD's image onto it in each frame, correcting for angle, position, movement, etc.) So we simply will have to get used to going back to eyewitnesses as the gold-colored, gold-appearing standard, if you will, because of course that's NEVER been that reliable.

    In a sense, it would be like the power grid going irretrievably down. LOCALLY, you can still make power and all your electrically-powered devices will work, provided you can MAKE sufficient power to run them, with, i.e., solar power, wind power, etc., but you can't really KNOW that when you take your device anywhere with you, (by donkey-drawn cart, for instance,) that in the next village, there will be any way to get it to work. In this instance, when you're looking at footage you shot yourself, or a recording you yourself made, preferably on the device that made it, YOU know that's true, but you show that to anyone you don't know, and they should regard that with suspicion.

    It's going to be a bitter pill to swallow, knowing as a society that video and audio recordings are no longer in any way reliable. Maybe a better analogy will be if it were announced that all processors of all computing devices since the Sperry UNIVAC, even seemingly air-gapped ones, locked in Faraday-cages, in underground vaults with platoons of Marines guarding them can STILL be hacked, and made to divulge any information they've EVER processed, and so the only way to safeguard your data is to take your computer, and the biggest sledgehammer you can wield, and USE ITEM, if you will, to smash the computer into tiny little pieces. The resulting society, in which even the digital CALCULATOR is seen as unsafe, does not "go back to zero". It simply dusts off its old slide-rules, and trig and log tables, and starts printing THEM again.

    Then of course, someone points out that someone has corrupted the log tables, obviously it was printed on one of the haywire computers that wasn't smashed up, since it states plainly, in black & white, that the log to the base 10 of 1000 is 7, which hopefully, every slashdotter knows is totally wrong. It's negative 9. (LOL)

    All kidding aside, we will survive this, but I think it does mean we are at the end of a golden age when you could just point to a recording, video or audio, of a given event or situation, and have your evidence regarded as indisputable. There will be a while, of course, before everyone realizes that video and audio recorded evidence is no longer anymore reliable than hearsay, and probably a lot of bad things will happen as a result before everyone gets it, but some people are still convinced the Earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, and no man has ever walked upon its surfac

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    Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
  67. bet you want strong encryption now by superwiz · · Score: 1

    There is a fairly well-known solution to a potential problem they are describing. Assume it's already happening and act accordingly. And that means encouraging wide use of strong cryptographic signatures of all digital content as the only content to be trusted. But they won't encourage that. They want to look like they are fighting foreign influence, but want to continue peddling the same bullshit that they accuse others of doing.

    For example, what's the difference if it is a foreign power doing this or a nefarious political rival? Well, none really. Both foist a lie on the voting public. But politicians want one of those lies to trusted.

    They could create a new division of the copyright office which would track signatures of verifiable facts (eg. "this set of public signatures belong to a US citizen whose name shall remain unknown", "this set of signatures belong to someone with a medical license", etc.). But that would mean that you can't have verifiable anonymous sources. So you can't make anonymous accusations. Come to think of it, why doesn't everyone who is entitled to being called a "senior White House official" have access to the same 1 private key PGP key? This way any newsource claiming that a statement was made by a senior White House official would have to be able to produce a signature of that statement that can only be produced by senior WH officials. But there is more politicking to be done by making this shit up. So it won't happen.

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    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.