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Automation: The Exaggerated Threat of Robots (flassbeck-economics.com)
It will take quite a lot of time before robots become cheaper than workers in emerging markets such as Africa, argues Nico Beckert of Flassbeck Economics, a consortium of researchers who aim to provide economics insights with a more realistic basis. From the post: All industrialized countries used low-cost labour to build industries and manufacture mass-produced goods. Today, labour is relatively inexpensive in Africa, and a similar industrialization process might take off accordingly. Some worry that industrial robots will block this development path. The reason is that robots are most useful when doing routine tasks -- precisely the kind of work that is typical of labour-intensive mass production. At the moment, however, robots are much too expensive to replace thousands upon thousands of workers in labour-intensive industries, most of which are in the very early stages of the industrialization process. Robots are currently best used in technologically more demanding fields like the automobile or electronics industry.
Even a rapid drop in robot prices would not lead to the replacement of workers by robots in the short term in Africa where countries lag far behind in terms of fast internet and other information and communications technologies. They also lack well-trained IT experts. Other problems include an unreliable power supply, high energy costs and high financing costs for new technologies. For these reasons, it would be difficult and expensive to integrate robots and other digital technologies into African production lines.
Even a rapid drop in robot prices would not lead to the replacement of workers by robots in the short term in Africa where countries lag far behind in terms of fast internet and other information and communications technologies. They also lack well-trained IT experts. Other problems include an unreliable power supply, high energy costs and high financing costs for new technologies. For these reasons, it would be difficult and expensive to integrate robots and other digital technologies into African production lines.
Msmash is, in fact, an AI/robot, trying to throw us off the trail of their takeover of the world! "Pay no attention to the robots and AIs gaining on you, it's all, uh, well, - not real?" Msmash - you've been outed!
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
People think I am crazy for believing this, but I believe that robots are stealing my luggage.
All the workers who get displaced by automation are going to go to engineering school and build those robots! And the ones who can't do that will go to medical school and become doctors and eliminate the shortage of physicians.
It will take quite a lot of time before robots become cheaper than workers in emerging markets such as Africa,
So what? What does that straw man have to do with anything?
Today, labour is relatively inexpensive in Africa, and a similar industrialization process might take off accordingly. Some worry that industrial robots will block this development path.
I haven't seen one person worry about that. Not a single one. What people are worried about isn't whether Africans will get a job, they're worried whether outsourcing and automation will take jobs that people have now. Africans probably know that there is a good chance that most of the remaining human-based manufacturing jobs will end up in Africa, which is a situation all major corporations in a position to care are working towards.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Tech companies will make up any excuse not to hire skilled talent: robots, AI, outsourcing, H1Bs, internships, summers of code, taking from open source and not giving back.
No one's claiming robots are going to put Africans out of work. No one gives a shit about Africans. Robots are going to put Americans and Europeans out of work.
Ignoring all the international companies working and utilizing technology in the area, cell phones are already used by the local agricultural sectors. The utilization of technology in African economies by the locally owned companies and individuals comes organically, with benefits, efficiencies and opportunities.
The challenge of distances remains, what ever the political conditions might be. "Lets use solar powered robots to maintain the newly build road network we uprooted entire villages and cities for" is not an easy proposition in any country.
The free market exists only on EUrope or America ? O'really ? You are perhaps taking capitalism as some utopian academic idea, and not for the exchange of goods and price-finding system that it is.
Repent you sinners and blasphemers !
It will take a long time for it to be worth it to replace African slave labor with robots...
a consortium of researchers who aim to provide economics insights with a more realistic basis
"More realistic" than what? What is the yardstick or basis of comparison here, and how do they evidence whether they are in fact hitting their mark?
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
All this fucking neoliberals barfing always the same old nonsense.
The problem is -- and has always been -- to regard workforce (i.e. human time) as a ware, subject to the "laws" of supply and demand. Automation reduces demand, slowly lowering the prices in times where everything else goes up (especially real estate, and thus rents).
You won't see the "robots" substituting human labor at a given moment, but you are seeing (you've been seeing now from the 70ies, if you've been paying attention) the less-earning people earning less and less. The whole subprime crisis in the USA can be seen as an "adjustment" in this direction.
And then those lemmings vote for Trump, of all things, the one making money hand over fist with real estate, at the cost... of those very same lemmings. The irony is nearly too good to be true.
The whole upheavals in the middle East? Look up the world market food prices at that time.
We'll see more "adjustments" like that in the next future, and automation is just one element in that whole process.
To begin with, since African labor is currently cheaper than Chinese labor and has been for decades, why aren't all iPhones made in Africa?
Consider:
* it's not just cost of labor but also quality of output by labor (related to training and life experience)
* the need for surrounding physical infrastructure (like reliable electricity)
* the need for surrounding social infrastructure (like a hierarchical work ethic)
* the need for surrounding political infrastructure (like rule of law and low corruption)
* the cost of transportation (including local transportation to and from ports)
* the cost of language barriers
* the cost of cultural barriers
Ultimately, to understand why the premise is wrong of all labor being done in Africa instead of by robots, ask yourself, why do you have a local printer or local copier in your home and office when it would be much cheaper per page to have everything printed and copied in a central print shop ten miles away? The answer is that the cost per page is not as significant to you as other values like convenience, turnaround, transportation, privacy, and security.
Most humans in any location are less and less employable relative to robots and AI because human output is of more variable quality, humans take breaks, humans don't work 24X7, humans get sick, humans file lawsuits about working conditions, humans steal things, and humans require safer climate-controlled workplaces. Those are some of the same reasons almost everyone now drives horseless carriages instead of keeping several horses in a barn.
Humans still have some advantages relative to robots and AI in some situations -- e.g. why Telsa should have set up a human-powered assembly line first and then automated when most of the routine needs were clearer. Long term though AI and robots will outperform human labor in almost all situations. Thus the need for a basic income, a gift economy, improved subsistence production with 3D printers and gardening robots, and/or democratically-planned government projects.
See also: "Humans Need Not Apply"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Ditto for 'AI'. There's no such thing and likely never will be. Automation is actually one of the only honest terms to describe any of it, and it isn't going to kill the human race. I'd be much more concerned about the unethical humans behind the curtain.
"At the moment, however, robots are much too expensive to replace thousands upon thousands of workers in labour-intensive industries, most of which are in the very early stages of the industrialization process. Robots are currently best used in technologically more demanding fields like the automobile or electronics industry. "
In other news, batteries are too expensive to use in cars, there's only a worldwide demand for maybe a dozen computers, and scientists prove that man can never fly!
Look, robots will take a number of unskilled or semi-skilled laborer's jobs, that's a fact. Outsourcing the job(s) to another continent (Africa in this example) for businesses to stay competitive is a constant need as there are cost pressures to a business to continue offering the typical worker the exchange of dollars for time spent working. The argument that we should not automate because it will cost a person's job is a non-starter. Businesses evolve, people evolve, and neither can afford to stand still or take the risk of becoming irrelevant. Just look at the project management triangle (triple constraint) - cost, time, resources - all we're discussing here is access to resources in a timely and cost-effective manner. This is just optimization, nothing sinister.
Are you in this category ? Get out there and re-train for the coming automation, don't sit on your ass and get run over by technological progress. If you stand still, and let your skills languish, you will get demolished. Previous examples include buggy-whip salesmen, VCR manufacturers, musket-producers, blacksmiths, punch-card paper providers, etc, etc. The list of dead technology is quickly replaced by new technology at the front-end of the product life cycle. Find a technology in which your skills can be valuable to the masses and apply them, don't cling to the past. If you're really brave, pick a technology in its infancy and take what you've learned in your career to optimize it. If (when?) the technology takes off you'll have a long stable, lucrative run and *then* you can sit back and relax knowing you're ahead of the curve instead of behind it.
Now, an example to the contrary for semi-skilled labor : truck drivers. Truck drivers are getting more and more sparse. ( example : incentives to drive trucks and dedicated trucking sites like this one : http://www.findatruckingjob.com/ ). In this case you have an industry which is exploding with need, but cannot find enough resource (people) to do the job, so wages are increasing (perhaps not as fast as they should, but that's another point). Of course something needs to fill the gap, let's look at that triangle again : cost, time, resources. Our resources now cost more for the same amount of delivery time. The incentive for the first company to achieve cheaper costs is a lock on the market, and a more stable company to work for as an employee. How is this bad to achieve more worker stability, more $ and technological progress ?
Edit: captcha was "obsolete", how fitting.
The #1 impediment to manufacturing moving itself to Africa is infrastructure. You need reliable transportation/supply channels, raw materials, and human resources to run a factory. Depending on where you go in Africa, you have resource shortages (water being a big one), human capital problems (corruption, poor education, poor public health/sanitation), and transportation problems (again, corruption, along with political instability). Asia worked out as well as it did wherever there were enough "strongman" dictator/autocrats to keep the rabble in line to get stuff done. It is telling that, in decades past, manufacturing was able to move to countries like Bangladesh but not someplace in Africa . . .
You would be insane to push manufacturing into many parts of Africa where there are terrorist organizations, corrupt officials, revolutions, wars, and other trouble. Not worth it!
The long-term trend will be the introduction of automated labor into markets that currently or formerly had exploited cheap labor. Automation will also be a way for "developed" countries to get their manufacturing capacity back when former "emerging markets" like China and India lose their appeal as cheap-labor markets. Nobody in their right mind will build automated factories in Africa, just as they aren't moving "traditional" factories there now.
It goes the other way around:
We've banned child labour and established human rights because as a society as a whole we have decided that these are values worth investing in, especially since we easyly can. There is little point in having 12-year olds working in the mines, since it's way more benefitial to have a few grown men and huge machines do that. And send the children to school, to learn to build and maintain the machines when they grow up.
The benefits far outweight the costs. It will be the same with UBI. Only getting there can be painful.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Even a rapid drop in robot prices would not lead to the replacement of workers by robots in the short term in Africa where countries lag far behind in terms of fast internet and other information and communications technologies. They also lack well-trained IT experts. Other problems include an unreliable power supply, high energy costs and high financing costs for new technologies. For these reasons, it would be difficult and expensive to integrate robots and other digital technologies into African production lines.
The article describes the place as a location nobody sane would want to locate manufacturing. Low cost is important but only as it relates to high productivity. Capitalism depends on the ability of capital to increase production and profit.
You can replace a team of 5 expert doctors, 10 nurses and a group of psychologists per patients just by implementing a software that can do diagnosis better than doctors and a pill of correct medicine. This is possibly, because misdiagnosis causes a lot of work and damage to the patient and when it is avoided, we don't need that many people doing that hard work anymore.
This is just a small example of something that is already happening in Africa and something that can be done without fancy robotics. You just need a normal computer, hell you can even use a cloud and a smart phone.
Africa has problems but those are solvable. E.g. their farming level is from stone age. If they would use modern farming technology, they could increase their harvests a lot. But this would require working infrastructure.
But this problem will be solved within 10 years. Why 10 years? Because after 10 years, we will run out of food. And at that point, especially China will be pouring a lot money into Africa to get food from there to Chinese markets. So they will fix the infra and fix the farming tech and that will give the boost to the whole continent.
Unless global warming make that part of the globe inhabitable.
im just gonna shoot all them robots! yeehaw!!
Robots already have replaced thousands of thousands of workers! ... Probably it dropped ny a factor of 1000, most cdrtainly it is more than a factor of 100!
Or do you realy think a german or swedish car is made by humans?
Sure, there are still a few involved. But compare the number of workers of today with the late 1970s
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Trials in Washington state, uses a vacuum kind of thing to grab the apple. It may not be ready today but the writing is on the wall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
You have a warped view of Africa, 19th century style. it ain't the shanty hut continent. This IS Africa : https://www.123rf.com/photo_71... and there are similar to other countries than Kenya. Yes when you go into rural country you don't see that cityscape, but between major country and capital there is even highway, major electricity production center, major university, major ports etc...
Which also exists in Africa. Or are you purporting African don't have any work ethic... ?
No the real reason many firm are not in Africa, but in China are : 1) rare earth metal is more readily available today in China and combined with 2) China require for some raw material to have the stuff done locally and not export them (or do it in small quantity). They aren't dumb, both combined with cheap labor guarantee they get a lion share of what you cited.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
That's true in terms of labour cost. The agricultural sector seeks to automate it's operations as soon as possible in the industrialized countries. The issue is the technology, since many of these jobs currently requiring "human touch" are not easily automated until soft robotics and such are developed further. Nobody simply wants to do the heavy agriculture work anymore.
Many of those points on regulation and rights are more complex as the political organization is the problem for some countries (China in particular), not the worker rights. Also infrastructure may be from the colonial times with no replacement available until hundreds of people die due to building collapse. There is simply not enough capital yet to make the changes that would improve the working conditions and increase the value add of the production at the local level.
The "analyst" completely misses the point that robots don't care where they work. Sure, you can get stuff from Africa made by cheap labor. Or you can get stuff from 50 miles away made by a robot and pay no shipping or warehousing costs. Robots don't replace workers where workers are, they replace them in part by being in the most convenient possible spot for them to be. Because a robot in China costs neither more nor less than a robot just outside London.
that's the important thing.
So, sure, one may find specific combinations of infrastructure somewhere. For example:
https://sourcingjournal.com/to...
""The next China is not a where, it's a how you do business," he said. "But Africa seems to be the emergence of the next China." Africa today is much like China was in the late 80s and early 90s, McRaith explained. There's little there, but the continent is developing. The first thing to consider, however, McRaith said, is that the sizable continent cannot be discussed as one region and understood as such. Africa is big enough to fit all of the world's major players within it: the United States, China, India, Eastern Europe, Japan, the U.K., Spain, France, Germany and Italy, among others. "Africa is of a scale we've never dealt with," he said."
But it may be harder than you suggest. For your example of Nairobi, consider electrical infrastructure:
http://www.afd.fr/en/reliabili...
"The poor performance of Kenya's energy sector hampers the country's economic development and poverty reduction strategy: per capita electricity consumption is low, the country suffers relatively frequent power cuts, and small proportion of the population has access to electricity, while the average tariff in the last five years was $0.15 per kilowatt hour, one of the highest in sub-Saharan Africa."
And: ..."
https://medium.com/@kyleschutt...
"You will be robbed in Nairobi, inevitably. No one really talks about it because it is a bit awkward, but it should be discussed. You should know what to do. Except for my sister, everyone I know in Nairobi has been robbed, especially if they own a business. After all, the city's nickname is Nairobbery.
And: ... ..."
https://travel.state.gov/conte...
"Terrorist threats remain in Kenya, including those aimed at U.S., Western, and Kenyan interests, within the Nairobi area, along the coast, and within the northeastern region of the country. Terrorist attacks have cumulatively resulted in the death and injury of hundreds of people since 2011. Over the last year, most incidents have occurred in the northeastern border region of the country; there have been no major attacks in Nairobi, Mombasa, or other major cities in the last two years.
CRIME: Crime in Kenya is a regular occurrence and Kenyan authorities have limited capacity to deter and investigate such acts. Violent and sometimes fatal criminal attacks, including home invasions, burglaries, armed carjackings, muggings, and kidnappings can occur at any time.
Can large businesses set up generators (or locate near cheap hydropower perhaps), hire private security (ignoring some of those thefts mentioned were inside jobs), build gated compounds for executives and their families, and so on? Of course, but it all adds to the costs and risks of doing business.
Work ethic is a complex topic -- and note I said "hierarchical" work ethic, meaning people's willingness to submit to a big corporation versus their desire to work for themselves and/or their family, village, or tribe. One study from 2011 comparing Chinese and South African work ethic:
https://www.emeraldinsight.com...
"South Africa is a developing country, and within this context, it is essential to be economically competitive and proactive. Various sources reveal that the national productivity has been traditionally low, and continues to remain low. Within the context of the international arena, this is unacceptable. If South Africa is to become a recognised role player in the internationa
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Why would they install robots in Africa? Manufacturing will move closer to the markets to reduce cost of logistics.
It will take quite a lot of time before robots become cheaper than workers in emerging markets such as Africa...
How long will I have to wait for my burger in the drive through if it's made in Africa?
--- Keep the choice with the user..
This fails completely to understand that a large part of the cost of manufacturing is other than labor costs. To start with shipping averages around 8% of the cost of items sold period, and around twice that for over seas shipping on average. So if you can have hte robots make it for 10% less you have saved money and don't have to worry as much about rising labor costs.
We more or less know this to be what is happening because manufacturing is moving back to the US and using automation. We manufacture more now than ever before there are just no jobs in it anymore.
...you haven't built many automation systems.
Automation, whether software or robotic, is HARD to get right.
Even the stuff called "AI" is difficult and expensive to train, and any time you throw something new at it, you have to start over.
Robots ARE taking over all our most mundane, routine jobs, yes. But they will not be able to take over more complex jobs for a long, long time.
What it comes down to is that I want a robot more than I want a job.
The foolish unions are working hard to prevent robots from being created out of fear that jobs will vanish.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
It's about automation. It's creeping up all around us. Things that let less numbers of employers process the same number of transactions.
Automation is so much more than robots doing stuff humans do. Just associating the word robot to automation limits your thinking.
Trying to say this isn't a serious problem we going to have to face is pretty foolish. We need to tackle the effects of automation now, get in front of it, before it's a problem. If we don't, like climate change, which we failed to get in front of, it will also be a huge problem.
Thanks for your comment, and while those are all good points, I feel they a missing the forest for the trees.
While you are right for one type of gift economy, there are at least two types of gift economy. The first is as you outlined about maintaining social status in a social network (like for some Native American tribes that used the Potlatch ceremony). But there is also another form (or aspect) of gift economy based around volunteering semi-anonymously to give back to the larger community -- like with all the people contributing comments to Slashdot for free, people who work on Wikipedia (for all its flaws), people who write FOSS, and so on. Certainly there can be mixes of the two motivations, so a complex topic. There are poor people now in an exchange-dominant economy and there might be status poor people in a gift economy (even if they get enough to eat).
You use the word "we" in your defense of the exchange economy. And I agree exchange transactions can have various benefits for specific individuals and so indirectly to societies. But the reason to soften the harshness of the exchange economy and all its contracts and so on is precisely because there is no "we" in it. Exchange is about individuals (or organizations) making contracts with each other -- usually ignoring externalities to other individuals (e.g. pollution, meltdown risk, market failure) or leaving many people out of the benefits (unless the government steps in with regulations and taxes and such). With a growing concentration of wealth and a growing rich/poor divide, and also with vast amounts of taxes going towards militarism to protect specific commercial interests (e.g. "War is a Racket"), "we" is a more and more problematical term to use in describing the benefits of a capitalist society. Thus ideas like "Social Credit" by C. H Douglas to overlay the exchange economy with a basic income:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
"Douglas disagreed with classical economists who recognised only three factors of production: land, labour and capital. While Douglas did not deny the role of these factors in production, he considered the âoecultural inheritance of societyâ as the primary factor. He defined cultural inheritance as the knowledge, techniques and processes that have accrued to us incrementally from the origins of civilization (i.e. progress). Consequently, mankind does not have to keep "reinventing the wheel"."
Most 3D printers are fairly limited today. We are still far away from Star Trek replicators. That said, they are getting better every year. And a big advantage of 3D printers, especially ones that print in metal or other durable materials, is that you no longer have to keep an inventory of mass-produced parts around "just in case". You can also make more efficient designs in terms of mass usage when multiple types of parts can be printed together in custom ways. Combine 3D printers with robots and CNC machine and mini forgers and so on in a small shop, and there is a lot of potential for people being able to opt out of a lot of exchange transactions (if maybe not all). Likewise, local knowledge and better sensors make it possible for people to avoid doctors and dentists to some degree (including by eating better or avoiding stresses and exercising more and getting more sleep so on) -- so another way or reducing the need for exchange by subsistence.
Yes there is the bike shed affect for planning in any organization, where less knowledgeable people focus on less important details while glossing over stuff that matters a lot more. But government programs still made it possible for Neil Armstrong to walk on the Moon. And government programs run a weather satellite system predicting storms. And government programs in the 1930s (CCC) built many of the trails and public amenities we still enjoy today in the USA. And government funded research supports many of the fundamental breakthroughs in science and medicine that we all benefit from. And (for g
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Who's going to put up a $1B factory in a place where the corruption/instability is so bad? The few cents you'd save in low labor costs would be eaten up by bribes, replacing stolen equipment, etc. And you'd never see payback. Even if human labor is dirt cheap there, robots will eventually become cheaper, so what's the point?
You took the reply out of my mouth. UBI is not yet another benefit program. UBI is/will be abundance and wealth by robots and automation spread through the population so we don't have a revolt on our hands.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
c6gunner SHOOTS HIMSELF down as your FAKEname's on a post impersonating me https://linux.slashdot.org/com... & worse is you altering /. user's words there.
All because I challenged you to show you do better work and you can't TALKER after you tried to mock me https://linux.slashdot.org/com... .
SEEING YOU DEMAND PROOF OF OTHERS "I've yet to see you provide any evidence of that." by c6gunner on Monday March 15, 2010 @10:02PM (#31490942) I DEMANDED IT OF YOU & YOU FAILED BIGMOUTH, lol!
* You're online FAKENAME trash c6gunner & a childish dishonest punk + a DO-NOTHING "ne'er-do-well" CHATTERING dolt w/ ZERO to show for yourself other than your BLOWHARD bullshit, lol - you LOSE!
APK
P.S.=> You say hosts are shit here https://slashdot.org/comments.... ?
50++ /.ers & security pros + RESULTS SAY DIFFERENTLY loser:
Proof's here from /.ers https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... from SECURITY PROS https://slashdot.org/comments.... & REAL RESULTS w/ hosts working vs. threats https://slashdot.org/comments.... so EAT YOUR WORDS & CHOKE on them... apk
c6gunner SHOOTS HIMSELF down as your FAKEname's on a post impersonating me https://linux.slashdot.org/com... & worse is you altering /. user's words there.
All because I challenged you to show you do better work and you can't TALKER after you tried to mock me https://linux.slashdot.org/com... .
SEEING YOU DEMAND PROOF OF OTHERS "I've yet to see you provide any evidence of that." by c6gunner on Monday March 15, 2010 @10:02PM (#31490942) I DEMANDED IT OF YOU & YOU FAILED BIGMOUTH, lol!
* You're online FAKENAME trash c6gunner & a childish dishonest punk + a DO-NOTHING "ne'er-do-well" CHATTERING dolt w/ ZERO to show for yourself other than your BLOWHARD bullshit, lol - you LOSE!
APK
P.S.=> You say hosts are shit here https://slashdot.org/comments.... ?
50++ /.ers & security pros + RESULTS SAY DIFFERENTLY loser:
Proof's here from /.ers https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... from SECURITY PROS https://slashdot.org/comments.... & REAL RESULTS w/ hosts working vs. threats https://slashdot.org/comments.... so EAT YOUR WORDS & CHOKE on them... apk
c6gunner SHOOTS HIMSELF down w/ his FAKEname on a post impersonating me https://linux.slashdot.org/com... & w/ c6gunner altering /. user's words there.
All since I challenged c6gunner to show better work than mine he did & you can't c6gunner "ne'er-do-well"!
Right after you tried to mock me 1st https://linux.slashdot.org/com... for no good reason & I didn't bug you @ all!
YOU DEMAND PROOF "I've yet to see you provide any evidence of that." by c6gunner on Monday March 15, 2010 @10:02PM (#31490942) ?
I DEMANDED IT OF YOU & YOU FAILED!
* You're FAKENAME trash you childish dishonest punk + YOU are a DO-NOTHING "ne'er-do-well" CHATTERING dolt w/ ZERO to show for yourself!
APK
P.S.=> You say hosts are shit here https://slashdot.org/comments.... ?
50++ /.ers & security pros + RESULTS SAY DIFFERENT:
Proof's here from /.ers https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... from SECURITY PROS https://slashdot.org/comments.... & REAL RESULTS w/ hosts working vs. threats https://slashdot.org/comments.... so EAT YOUR WORDS... apk