Chinese President Vows To Boost Intellectual Property Protection (afr.com)

hackingbear writes: In the opening of China's first import-themed trade fair, President Xi Jinping promised tougher penalties for intellectual property theft, a key concern of the Trump administration, in front of leaders and executives from 3,600 companies from more than 170 countries. China has been steadily advancing intellectual property protection over the years. In addition to filing twice as many patents as the U.S. in 2017, up nearly 14 folds from 2001, it is also increasingly being selected as a key venue for patent litigation by non-Chinese companies, as litigants feel they are treated fairly as foreign plaintiffs won the majority of their patent cases in 2015 (though that likely attracts patent trolls). China's journey from piracy to protection models the journeys of the U.S. which had blatantly violated intellectual properties in building its modern industry.

Comments

But..

[Errol backfiring]

It's a good thing that there is no such thing as "Intellectual Property".

Re:But..

[Errol backfiring]

There is copyright, patent law, etc. But "intellectual property" is just a term coined by people who want it to be a general system to forbid unpaid thoughts. The more people repeat it, the more people think it actually exists. It does not.

Re:But..

[shentino]

I think the situation is complex enough as it is.

Re:But..

[TuringTest]

The more people repeat it, the more people think it actually exists.

So, how is that any different from regular property?

Re:But..

[Anubis IV]

By that logic, do laws even exist? After all, they're social fabrications that have no physical manifestation in the real world, other than that which we create for them.

My point is, of course these things exist. I'll assent to the notion that "intellectual property" may be a misnomer, since you simply cannot own thoughts in the same way that you can own a physical item, but I've never heard anyone try to use it that way. So far as I've ever heard the term used, "intellectual property" is simply the catch-all phrase used to refer to ideas protected by the sorts of laws you're talking about, be they copyright, trademark, utility/design patent, or some other form of protection. Again, "intellectual property" may not be the best way of referring to those things, but it's the best we've got until a more accurate phrase catches on. Feel free to suggest an alternative.

Now, if people were using the term to argue true ownership over certain thoughts, A) that'd be absurd, and B) I'd agree that we have a problem. Thankfully, so far as I've seen, no one is (yet) making that argument, and I don't think we're on any sort of slippery slope to reaching that point, despite certain aspects of IP law going differently than we would like (e.g. seemingly endless copyright extensions, ambiguous patents, overly aggressive trademark defenses, etc.).

Re:But..

[imgod2u]

"You wouldn't steal a car" - treating Intellectual Property as real property.

Re:But..

[HeckRuler]

By that logic, do laws even exist?

Just like fiat money, they exist to the extent that people believe in them. And most people believe in intellectual property. Authors and artists and clinical-trail-paying medical researchers deserve to get paid.

But US copyright and IP law is pretty fucking atrocious.

#1 thing they need to do

[jonwil]

The #1 thing they need to do if they are serious about combating IP theft is to stamp out all the bootlegging that goes on in their country.

LEGO have recently won a court case against a major Chinese bootlegger but other than a minor fine and possibly a need to redesign or stop selling a few products (out of the many bootleg products they currently make and sell around the world) it wont do a thing to stop the knock-offs.

Enforcement action by the government and its agencies to shut down the bootlegging (of everything from LEGO to designer bags to golf clubs to baby formula) would be the single biggest thing the Chinese government could do to show the world that it is serious about respecting intellectual property rights.

Re: #1 thing they need to do

[Anonymous Coward]

The way I see it, now they have stolen all their technology they want to protect future advancements they make with it.

Re: #1 thing they need to do

[Anonymous Coward]

"The way I see it, now they have stolen all their technology they want to protect future advancements they make with it."

Yes, exactly the same way the US developed itself after stealing european tech back when they were the pirates.

Re:#1 thing they need to do

[Zocalo]

Clearly not even LEGO thinks this since there are several other systems of building block toys out there and readily available. The clue was the use of the term "bootleg product"; that basically implies a knock-off that either pretends to be the official product or is an obvious clone of it. In this specific case it's a rip-off of LEGO's product, right down to replacing the LEGO logo with their own "Lepin" version and replication of the Mini-Fig form, as can be seen in this article. You can quibble over "IP" in the context of imaginary property, but LEGO's case was on the grounds of registered trademark infringment which isn't doesn't get much more black and white than that.

Re:#1 thing they need to do

[jonwil]

There is a big difference between a clone block manufacturer (such as Mega Bloks) producing their own original set designs and securing their own licenses and what the Chinese bootleggers do where they directly copy the design of official LEGO products (often ripping off licensed brands like Star Wars or DC or Marvel or Harry Potter or Ferrari)

There is a BIG difference between something like this Call of Duty helicopter set
https://shop.megabrands.com/en...
produced legally and with full permission of Activision Blizzard as owners of the Call of Duty IP and something like this knock-off Star Wars set
https://lepinstarwars.com/prod...
which is a direct copy of the official LEGO Star Wars Cloud City set and has been produced without permission from LEGO (who own the rights to the design of the set as well as the exclusive rights to produce Star Wars building sets) or Disney/Lucasfilm (as owners of the Star Wars IP)

Re:#1 thing they need to do

[gtall]

We are in luck, China has green-lighted a slew of trademark registrations for Ivanka Trump. Who says they care not about intellectual property...now if she only had some.

Re: #1 thing they need to do

[jabuzz]

The estate of Charles Dickens would like some royalties for all his books that were sold in the USA without a cent going to him would be another example of the top of my head.

The reason that spinning and weaving are often brought up is that in the late 18th early 19th century these where the high tech cutting industrial techniques of the age. They where the equivalent of chip making today.

Not only was IP theft rampant it was state sanctioned, with incentives offered to foreign nations to come to the USA with secrets that where not their own.

Re:#1 thing they need to do

[drinkypoo]

Enforcement action by the government and its agencies to shut down the bootlegging (of everything from LEGO to designer bags to golf clubs to baby formula)

They are literally counterfeiting eggs in China. Trusting anything they say about anything goes down as one of the dumbest possible moves in history.

Re: #1 thing they need to do

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Hong Kong and work in Mainland China from time to time. This argument is made all the time (that the US has contradictory policies, and China is only doing what everyone else has done).

The major flaw with this argument is that it attempts to draw a moral equivalence over 100+ years of human history. For example, does it make sense to exercise criminal justice today the same way we did in the late 1800s? Most would consider that an absurd question. For some reason with IP people tend to not exercise that train of thought.

Intellectual property was not protected anywhere in the world 100 years ago, when the US and European nations were industrializing. A couple of additional key points that differentiate what China is doing from what the US did:

- Everyone was stealing from each other in the late 1800s as IP wasn't protected and nations were industrializing concurrently (e.g., the UK stole textile technology from the Italians, and the US stole from the UK).

- The US never rewrote history to claim they were the original investors of (most) stolen IP. Google The Chinese have brainwashed the average citizen who now walks around with the audacity to tell the world that they invented high-speed rail after standing on decades of research and development from the Germans and the Japanese (the French had the foresight to stay away).

The part in bold is simply not true:
https://www.txpatentattorney.com/blog/the-history-of-intellectual-property/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property#History

The US has claimed plenty of inventions as their own when they were not, a cursory google search will tell you that (btw the first search engine was created by a Canadian).

Re: #1 thing they need to do

[fustakrakich]

Do you have any other examples of stolen tech?

I think something happened in Hollywood

Re: #1 thing they need to do

[Hognoxious]

Intellectual property was not protected anywhere in the world 100 years ago

The oldest known trademark was Bass Brewery, in 1876. Copyright in England started in the reign of Queen Anne, in 1710. And (I admit I had to look this one up) the first patent was granted in 1449.

Re:#1 thing they need to do

[Zocalo]

It's not an acronym but is short for "leg godt", meaning "play well". As for the writing form I don't think it really matters, although there have been heated debates over both the capitalisation and whether the plural should an "s" or not. Grammatically it should be "Lego", but is generally stylised in block caps as "LEGO", which is also how it is trademarked, so that's how most people are used to seeing it written. Finally, while the company name is officially "Lego Systems", they do business as "Lego Group", which they also tend to stylise as "LEGO Group" - so even they seem split over the issue.

Coincidence?

[Anonymous Coward]

Headline in the business section of this morning's newpaper (WaPo, via the Boston Globe): Ivanka Trump awarded 16 Trademarks by the Chinese.

(I know, what's a newspaper.)

Words are cheap.

[Gravis Zero]

I'll believe it when I see them actually enforcing this. Besides, the Chinese government doesn't consider it theft when they take it because they have laws that compel you to comply. Got a factory in China? Yeah, it's at least 51% owned by the Chinese so that (surprise!) they can insist that all IP be handed over.

Nothing is changing here, it's just words. The idea here is to fool Xi's US counterpart.

Re:Words are cheap.

[Mashiki]

Nothing is changing here, it's just words. The idea here is to fool Xi's US counterpart.

No it's not to fool the US counterpart, it's to fool all of the countries and companies that do business in China. Why do you ask? Well for the first time the politburo has stated that "yes they are actually worried about the tariffs, but also countries moving out of china and back to their home countries." Topping this out with the anti-chinese sentiment allowing them to buy up resources/land/etc in other countries for their own use.

The second part, is they've just had 9 repeat quarters of GDP dropoff, and in order to stave off negative GDP growth they want to pump in more debt to bolster it. Problem is, they're burning on empty. They have nearly 1000 large cities that have next to no population and nobody can buy into them. They have hundreds of cities modeled after Canadian and US housing developments...but nobody is buying them. Can't even rent them. They sit there...empty. But all those companies have debts for pay, resources, etc that are starting to come due and there's been a big spike in business failures and asset forfeitures. Now the really interesting thing, banks have been lending on assets(resources, stockpiles, buildings, etc). Then finding out that 3 other banks have done the same, and those assets don't exist.

Ready for the real shitshow to start? If you are, let the tariffs keep going. Japan, Korea, Philippines, Singapore will cheer China hitting serious financial problems.

Re:Words are cheap.

[houghi]

So them not agreeing with copyright is a good thing, right? Or is it bad, because it isn't American.
I am on the "Copyrights and patents are bad, mmkay?" side of things and as it has been proven that giving them a finger, they will take the whole arm (It used to be 14 years, Now it is 'till hell freezes over') I rather have no patents and copyrights.

And the few individuals who jump through the whole process of e.g patenting are either screwed out of it very soon. Others do not even play the game and take their free energy ideas to their grave.

There will be a few who are both great inventors AND great businessmen. They will find a way to make money of their invention either way.

Re:Words are cheap.

[phayes]

Well, I believe that China will be protecting the intellectual property of _Chinese_ patents. They'll continue to force all the barbarians in the world (AKA non Chinese) to hand over their patents and industrial property as the price of having access to the Chinese market though.

Re:Words are cheap.

[Mashiki]

Do you have a link or citation for this? Honestly asking.

Take it right from a chinese newspapers mouth there's been a few articles on the Korean Daily News, on the Japan Times, Mainichi Shinbun as well. article from bloomberg on the politburo wanting to pump more money and debt into the economy to keep it going. Again few articles more on this, check SEA news organizations, WSJ and so on. This is the type of stuff that doesn't get traction in the US/Canada or European media.

Are you sure they would cheer? If China is really such an evil godless commie regime, wouldn't a pressured China be more likely to do something crazy, which would be bad for its neighbors?

Yes, because it would give them the opportunity to kick them square in the teeth over the south china sea and them building military installations there. This has become a big enough problem that the current government in Japan(Abe) has both the political and public support to rewrite the constitution allowing for a pro-active military, instead of the restricted defensive military put into place at the end of WWII. In S/N.Korea's case, there appears to be far more going on as well, including having Kim come to Seoul, an agreement to de-mine sections of the DMZ, more open trade, removal of all military posts on/near disputed islands and so on. Singapore seems to be taking a very active approach to wanting them to reunify as well.

There's also the fact that China is a major if not top trading partner to those countries. So even if China doesn't do something crazy, their neighbors will be affected.

Most already have plans for that, note the increase trade deals between Canada, Japan and S.Korea dealing with milk/milk products, and flash-frozen meat for example.

Re:Words are cheap.

[larryjoe]

I'll believe it when I see them actually enforcing this. Besides, the Chinese government doesn't consider it theft when they take it because they have laws that compel you to comply. Got a factory in China? Yeah, it's at least 51% owned by the Chinese so that (surprise!) they can insist that all IP be handed over.

Nothing is changing here, it's just words. The idea here is to fool Xi's US counterpart.

Exactly. Remember that on paper, China is the world's largest democracy. However, India is usually referred to as the world's largest democracy because democracy in China doesn't exist in reality.

Just as in the US, the court system is the key. Take a look at the East Texas courts for patent law. If judges always rule one way, the strongest laws don't matter. In fact, this could be a good way for China to legitimize IP theft, by leaving the imprimatur of Chinese law on IP that gets stolen and deposited in China. Before, the Chinese government could just leverage foreign greed for the mirage of Chinese markets. Now, they realize that it's better to adjudicate in their own courts and say that they are simply following established legal principles and mechanisms, i.e., IP laundering.

One of the articles in the summary said, "[China] is also increasingly being selected as a key venue for patent litigation by non-Chinese companies, as litigants feel they are treated fairly as foreign plaintiffs won the majority of their patent cases in 2015." However, that article references the Wall Street Journal which actually says, "Western lawyers say that as a result of China’s moves, the country is fairer to outsiders than a few years ago, but still far from a level playing field. Patent infringement remains rampant, and violators aren’t deterred by the small damage awards there, lawyers say. The U.S. State Department said last year that U.S. firms saw “serious obstacles” to protecting their intellectual property in China, including patents, copyrights, trademarks, trade secrets and drug-test results. The good news is China is interested in IP, and the bad news is China is interested in IP,” said Mark Cohen, who leads the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office’s China team."

Re:Words are cheap.

[Zontar The Mindless]

Every time ghost cities are brought up, the poster can never give locations.
Now you claim China has 1000 large ghost cities.
Surely you can list off say 10 out of 1000 so we can verify through satellite imagery of few cars on the streets?

TFTFY.

Re:Words are cheap.

[Gravis Zero]

Wow, what a load of horseshit. China only cares about China and they have stated that fact very clearly on multiple occasions, so if it doesn't benefit China then they won't do it. China has no interest in playing by the rules because that wouldn't benefit them.

Ha, I checked your profile. So, you're part of the 50cent propaganda crew, eh? It's no surprise that I got modded "overrated" twice with chaps like you around.

Re:Words are cheap.

[Gravis Zero]

Yes, China has changed into a dictatorship. They actively abduct Muslims and put them re-education jails until all they can do is spout propaganda. They've created and Orwellian surveillance state to track everyone.

New China is the same as the old China.

Re:Words are cheap.

[Gravis Zero]

Sounds like China has deeply seeded cultural problem and they either have no idea what the solution is or they hate the solution itself.

Re:Words are cheap.

[Gravis Zero]

Every time ghost cities are brought up, the poster can never give locations.

Maybe you should try using google, it took 10 seconds to find:
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda...

Re:Words are cheap.

[Mashiki]

Thanks for the links, but for the second part, I'm still not sure what's there to cheer about.

That depends on your view point. Is having your own country stand on it's own two feed good or bad?

If that's what they want to do and want to cheer about, why not kick them now, before they do something crazy?

For the SEA countries? Yes. China has been a belligerent in that area for years, it's something that isn't covered in western media.

For example, since you speak of Canada... did conservatives cheer in 2015 when they had plans to prepare for Trudeau coming into power?

Yeah, us conservatives told people he wasn't ready then hold onto your asshole because you're gonna get the government you voted for. True to turn at this point, the only upside is he's likely going to be unable to inflict 8 years of problems.

hypocrisy much?

[shentino]

China?

Boost intellectual property protection?

*inhales deeply*

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Re:hypocrisy much?

[cerberusss]

This. And to add to that, President Xi Jinping is well known for saying what everybody wants to hear and then turning around and do exactly the opposite. If you're a company and dare say something about it, expect to get all sorts of weird investigations and licenses retracted for vague and made-up reasons.

In this particular area, things are slowly turning around now that Trump is saying something about it, and not budging. At least, that's what economists like Kees de Kort are saying. I don't think anybody in The Netherlands is a fan of Trump, but the fact that he points out these Chinese hypocracies is well received.

Re:hypocrisy much?

[gweihir]

Joke is on you. It means they have stolen enough and can now continue to grow on their own merit.

This "post" / propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else think this article reads like propaganda? My first thought when I read this is that it might have been written by someone from the Chinese government.

They have a fairly consistent pattern of how they present ideas, including the choice of words used -- anything that China does that's in their favor is their "sovereign right" or "internal affair" and anything that anyone does that's against China's benefit (real or perceived) is "wrong" or "a mistake".

The part that especially got me was the last sentence that basically admits to committing piracy, but defends it in the same breath saying 'Well that's what the US did to build their industry'.

Re:This "post" / propaganda

[e432776]

I have no mod points, but wanted to say that I very much noticed the same. Not ta slashvertisement, slashaganda.

English translation of President Xi's remarks...

[hyades1]

"Profuse thanks to you Westerners. We have now stolen everything we need. So now we will enact legislation to ensure you pay a hefty price if you try to steal any of it back."

basically means the war is lost

[gweihir]

For the US mostly. China now thinks they benefit more from IP protections than from not having them and that simply means they produce more value now from their own IP than from things they copy.

Re:basically means the war is lost

[HeckRuler]

Only if you take his statement at face value and ignore the massive trade war where "Respect our IP laws" is a major demand of the USA. So.... woo. We've successfully extracted lip-service from the leader of China. Talk is cheap.

Did anyone check the brand-name of the Chinese official making this vow? Was it Xi or was it a knock-off ><i brand?

Re:English translation of President Xi's remarks..

[gweihir]

That is how this works. The US does not have any moral high-ground in this regard.

Copyright exists but isn't the same as patent

[tepples]

It's a good thing that there is no such thing as "Intellectual Property".

That means the GPL doesn't exist.

The GNU General Public License exists. It is a license under copyright.

As I understand it, Errol's point is that copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret, and right of publicity are more different than they are alike. In any case, they're more different than would justify an umbrella term like "intellectual property".

Re:Copyright exists but isn't the same as patent

[drinkypoo]

As I understand it, Errol's point is that copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret, and right of publicity are more different than they are alike. In any case, they're more different than would justify an umbrella term like "intellectual property".

Well, he's wrong. They all clearly belong to the same class of "imaginary property created by legal edict". All of these things are wholly created for the purpose of providing a benefit to a few in the hope that this will produce benefit for the many.

Re:English translation of President Xi's remarks..

[houghi]

As you exclude this specific case, I would like to know what cases the US has the moral high-ground. (or almost any other country in the world. )

A lesson learned from the United States

[radarskiy]

In early America History, there was little effort spent on uphold foreign intellectual property claims. For example:
Samuel Slater was granted US patents on textile machinery that he copied from British mills that he had worked in. At the time it was illegal to export those designs from the UK.
Mark Twain was famously a proponent of perpetual copyright, on the premise that intellectual property is property and thus a limited term is a taking of that property, but he took that position only in his later years once he had a significant corpus that might be valuable after he died. When he was younger and consumed more writing than he produced he was quite in favor of cheap books printed in the US that paid no royalties to foreign writers.

Re:A lesson learned from the United States

[gweihir]

So this whole thing has happened before and any moral arguments are basically lies. No surprise.

Re:A lesson learned from the United States

[gweihir]

Well, since "Intellectual Property" is all about might and money and politics, it does not seem to be subject to morality either, by that argument. I do not disagree. I think the only moral issue that arises is when somebody claims to have something invented first and they did not.

To quote Dr. House

[Miser]

Everybody Lies.

Re:English translation of President Xi's remarks..

[gweihir]

You know, I cannot think of any single thing. The US seems to be hard at work remove any shred of moral superiority if may (or may not) ever have had. The exclusion was just to specify the issue under discussion, not to say anything about other things.

Re:English translation of President Xi's remarks..

[stealth_finger]

That is how this works. The US does not have any moral high-ground in this regard.

Or in any regard, really.

China is mirroring America

[jd]

This is precisely the path America took as it moved from copying Europe to competing.

If that pattern continues, China will dominate in new R&D in 20 years time.

America won't win by complaining, only by investing. It needs to put far more into education, research and blue sky science. You win races by being faster, not by trying to make others slower.

Hard to believe when ...

[Micah NC]

... the Chinese government denies all the industrial espionage and military espionage they commission.

I give them credit for the economic growth they've achieved, but they're a long way from the point where I would invest.

Re:English translation of President Xi's remarks..

[gweihir]

You will get no argument on that from me.

Re:English translation of President Xi's remarks..

[hyades1]

You won't find me disagreeing with that.

Re:Admits to STEALING others property

[Zontar The Mindless]

Then want to make the YEN the currency for international trade.

I'm sure the Japanese will be ecstatic over this.

IP is now valuable for them

[sad_]

it means that IP has now become valuable to China, it wasn't in the past so they ignored it.
Ignoring IP allowed them to grow, fast. Now that they're becoming a player they want to avoid somebody else doing what they've done.

"a key concern of the Trump administration" LOL

[Maritz]

The only concern of the Trump administration is Trump, and keeping Trump the fuck out of prison where he belongs. Donnie Jr is the next to go under the bus. He might draw a line at Ivanka - let's see.