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Why Bigger Planes Mean Cramped Quarters (popsci.com)
An anonymous reader shares a report: The ironic thing about the compressed state of air travel today is that planes are getting larger. The jet I was on, an Airbus A321, stretches nearly 23 feet longer than its predecessor, the A320. More space, more passengers, more profit. These bigger planes are increasingly the most common Âvariants -- both on American Airlines and across all carriers. The current Boeing 737s, the world's most flown craft, are all longer than the original by up to 45 feet. And yet, on the inside, we're getting squeezed.
That's because more space doesn't equal more space in Airline World. It equals more seats -- and typically less room per person. In 2017, for example, word leaked that American was planning to add six economy spots to its A320s, nine to its A321s, and 12 (that's two rows) to its Boeing 737-800s. JetBlue is reportedly ramming 12 extras into its A320s, and Delta's will gain 10. And, come 2020, you'll likely find more seats on every United plane. In Airline World, they call this densification, which is a silly word. Passengers call it arrrgh!
Consumer Reports recently polled 55,000 of its members about air travel. There were complaints about all aspects, from ticketing to agents checking carry-ons at the gate. But 30 percent of coach-class fliers rated their seats as outright uncomfortable, and every airline received extremely low scores on legroom and cushiness in economy. Clearly, things are dismal and seem to be getting even worse. They're so bad, in fact, that last year, nonprofit consumer-advocacy group FlyersRights.org filed a suit against the Federal Aviation Administration, after lobbying the agency to stop the squeeze and standardize seat sizes.
That's because more space doesn't equal more space in Airline World. It equals more seats -- and typically less room per person. In 2017, for example, word leaked that American was planning to add six economy spots to its A320s, nine to its A321s, and 12 (that's two rows) to its Boeing 737-800s. JetBlue is reportedly ramming 12 extras into its A320s, and Delta's will gain 10. And, come 2020, you'll likely find more seats on every United plane. In Airline World, they call this densification, which is a silly word. Passengers call it arrrgh!
Consumer Reports recently polled 55,000 of its members about air travel. There were complaints about all aspects, from ticketing to agents checking carry-ons at the gate. But 30 percent of coach-class fliers rated their seats as outright uncomfortable, and every airline received extremely low scores on legroom and cushiness in economy. Clearly, things are dismal and seem to be getting even worse. They're so bad, in fact, that last year, nonprofit consumer-advocacy group FlyersRights.org filed a suit against the Federal Aviation Administration, after lobbying the agency to stop the squeeze and standardize seat sizes.
...that they didn't complain about ticket prices.
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Go back to live evacuation tests. Require that they use airline CEOs, upper management, and their families as the test subjects... If the plane can't be evac'ed in 90 seconds without injury, increase seat pitch and try again.
If a few airline upper managers get hurt during an evacuation test, maybe they'll realize WHY extremely dense seating is a bad idea.
They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into - I say let em be crushed.
This is why capitalism rarely serves the needs of the consumer, because usually all players in the market have a a common goal that is the exact opposite of what the consumer needs.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I certainly support free market as much as reasonably possible. But it doesn't seem to be working here.
Where is the airline offering more legroom and less crammed cabins? Granted within the airlines there are different cabins, but there's no competition between a $350 coach seat and and a $6000 business class seat.
I think its time for some regulation in seat densities.
Mike @ The Geek Pub. Let's Make Stuff!
...then you get news that "word leaked".
A bunch of fat Americans complaining (I'm a thin American). The airline seats don't bother me, it's the fat guys and gals that can't stop eating that spill over their seats into my seat that bothers me.
immigration nation waking up? we're expanding our fly-fishing for soup & spot the biggest reptilian flying overhead while tobogganing promotions to year round. vacationing further north right away forever seems to be a new theme for the new wave touristers.. we'll keep the northern lights on.. we have generators, lots of soup.. see you there?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Did they probe your anus? I say away from those people like my life depended on it!... Which it probably does...
My first international flight was in 1994 to Brazil (from US). That ticket was around $1,800. I went to Brazil again about 5 years ago for only $1,300.
When you factor inflation into the mix, profits per passenger have to be almost nothing for most seats. What we've received in return is cramped seats, terrible customer service, and frequent issues while flying.
I'm 5'8" so legroom has never been that much of an issue for me. My problem is that my shoulders are too wide for seats. It's extremely uncomfortable if you fly on short notice, get stuck in the middle, and are next to two average sized males.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
All companies ask for client feedback except airlines. Have you ever received a "How was your flight?" feed-back form after your flight? I hever did.
You wanna tell us something new?
Why all this bitching when you damn people keep reelecting the corrupt politicians that make it all happen??? You're a bunch of freaks! Always looking for someone else to blame!
You have the seats and service you want and deserve. STFU!
More legroom, fewer crying kids, what's not to like?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Some people simply "rationalise" that this has something to do with fuel economic for profit. In fact, this is not true for a huge plane : it is never possible to fill up every seat for the jumbo plane fleet.
Bare in mind that, more plane chair chair weight more than 10 kg ~30 kg (depends on the material), an empty payload that burn fuel with no economy return.
Some may argue that flight company base on their historical projection to increase the seat and purposely allow overbook to counter the empty seat issue, however, I am willing to bet that they are not looking into those number.
I call it a good thing. It's absolutely necessary in order to make flying more sustainable (reduce number of flights, decrease carbon footprint. If you don't like feeling cramped, fly less or take a sleeping pill.
It's obvious to assume some form of corporate greed by the airlines as THE singular reason, but there are lots of factors most are not aware of.
The simplest one is that governments (particularly in the US) have allowed too much consolidation both by airlines and by manufacturers. There are really only two major airframe builders (Boeing and Airbus), but there are also too few airlines. This means insufficient competition.
There are then additional issues like too few runways and gates (thank all the NIMBYism) which force the airlines to squeeze people through a bottleneck at each major airport and indirectly forces the planes to need to be stuffed.
But then there are issues the public never is aware of, like FAA regs for the ration of flight attendants to passengers; this has driven the airlines to demand a seat count that exactly lines up with the ratio and has driven them to demand that Boeing, for example, re-design the seating in 737s to squeeze more rows into the cabin than the airframes were originally designed for.
in china, due to the number of people who travel to meet family at chinese new year (85% of a major city's population just... ups and leaves for 2 weeks), they're cramming 1,500 people into the larger planes, with special "half-standing" seats. 71cm legroom? ha, you never had it so guuhhd.... mind you, on the last 5 13-hour flights i've been on (taipei-brussels) i've spent 3 hours standing and walking around, due to persistent deep vein thrombosis. i know the warning signs really well, now...
Face it: in first-world countries, obesity is becoming more and more of a problem, still, but airlines are making the seats closer together? They're shooting themselves in the foot. Of course the obesity problem needs to be solved, but airlines are letting those dollarsigns blind them to reality; if someone can't fit into a seat then it just isn't going to work. Also annoying people isn't good for profits either. I think people would be happier to pay a little more per seat and be comfortable.
Flying is far too cheap wrt to the damages it causes. This is called externalized costs.
Those costs will have to be internalized, and in this process it'll be: more expensive tickets and more "arrrgh". So -- sorry, folks. Move over.
An hour to drive to airport, 90 minutes before departure for security, gate rape by TSA, one more hour from airport to destination, need for a car rental there, additional wait times on the rental shuttle and the rental office....
Flying is simply not worth it for less than 400 miles. Most people already avoid flights, squeezing the profits and revenue of airlines. That leads to more cost cutting and more squeezing of passengers ....
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
And the airlines are so very greedy! For a hypes up buss service with wings.
Slaves ships come to mind. I haven' been on a commercial airline since the Patriot Act and you shouldn't be flying either.
The 321 isn’t a “newer” version of the 320, it is a variant designed to hold more people with better economics.
The people have spoken, and they will squeeze into a smaller seat with less legroom to save $10. I am lucky in that I generally fly business class, but when I can no longer afford that option, there aren’t many options beyond the lowest common denominator. Most premium economy seats don’t make enough of a difference to make it palatable. You pay by the square foot of cabin space essentially.
Everyone complained and yet the election was meh, especially the Senate. So people will keep buying the cheap seats and suffer, just like they suffer trump's childish outbursts and racism, but voted for his candidates.
In 2000, American Airlines rolled out their "more room throughout coach" program, in contrast to United's "Economy Plus" for frequent-fliers only. Did casual fliers flock to American as a result of the increased legroom? No, they did not. Today, American's program is quite similar to United's, plus it's possible to buy the extra legroom under both programs.
Casual fliers seem to want cheap fares above all. If you look at EasyJet or RyanAir in Europe, it seems like fliers relish the prospect of cheap flights above all other contortions to lower the cost of the offering.
Most airlines already offer seating with more legroom. Economy Plus, Comfort Plus, Premium Economy, etc. You pay a little extra (about $50-$100 from what I've seen) and you get a few more inches of legroom (and get to sit closer to the front, which seems to be the more desired section).
So the complainers already have a solution at hand - pay a little more for more space. That they choose the cheaper, cramped seats means they're voting against more space. "Public wants bigger seats" is only true when coupled with "at no extra cost." Which is an economic impossibility.
My thoughts exactly.
Everyone's always willing to complain, but yet they continually want cheaper and cheaper flights
What cheaper flights? In the US, at least, flights are getting more expensive and more cramped and with more extra fees.
What I see happening is sneaky inflation. The base fare stays more or less the same but the ticket is less usable. To get back to where you were you have to pay more. We approaching the point where I may be forced to pay for "premium" economy. This is big problem because those seats are typically 50% more expensive for often less than one inch of extra knee room.
More legroom, fewer crying kids, what's not to like? Porno Maduras
I am 6'7" (2m). I have reach down to open doors, base the law prevents correct heigh door knobs. Toleits are too low. I actauly got suck on one in hospital, had to call the "front desk", to get maintenace to find me, to get orderlies to help me up. No grab bars and the cubile wall tops were actually out of reach. :)
Flying in the late 80's, with every flight O was on, the seat before me, is ALWAYS been stuck in up and locked position for the whole flight. My knees are against the chair rails. I stuck in the seat, normal ask and get window, becuase I cannot get out the chair, so other passengers will be trapped until most all have left the plane, then I climb up and grap the overhead bins and pull myself up.
One trip had little boy keep trying to get this seat to lean back, but wouldn't work. His mother got up and looked over, looked down and then said to her son... "You broke it! Now sit still."
so welcome to my world, of crushed knees and not being able to exit a plane in under 5mins. Maybe I should test exit plan, instead of 5'2" stewards.
Many people, and certainly tall ones, would be happy to pay 10% more for 10% more leg room. That is an extra 3".
But you actually need to pay 100% more to get a slightly bigger seat in Premium Economy.
And that is the point. If Economy was too comfortable, they would not sell many Business class seats.
If I ran an airline, I would remove the padding from Budget Economy seats.
Right now it's on the tighter seating end of the swing. In a year or two the airlines will be advertising how they're taking seats out of planes to make customers more comfortable (just like they did a couple years ago). Nevermind that if they were really so concerned about my comfort and safety they wouldn't have put all those damned seats in the plane in the first place.
Hear this, airlines (and GOP): others may, but I don't forget.
I recently looked up the sizes of most of the airline carriers economy seats, and then did some quick measurements of a few products at the store near me for comparison.
the following product:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...
is a childs folding chair. its seat is approximately 15 inches by 15 inches.
That seat is only 1 inch narrower than the economy seats on American airlines. (at 16 inches)
southwest is giving us 17 inches, American and Delta between 16.5 and 19, the data is a little vague.
and they want to make them smaller.
So what's next, 15 inch seats? actually match that child size play chair? Cram adults into the things for hours at a time? Road trips are starting to look a lot more pleasant.
I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
If Noah could fit two of everything on an Ark, then the airlines are determined to fit the same number of people onto a plane.
So stop bitching, its not for 40 days and 40 nights...
...but had somewhere to go and driving was ill advised for several reasons, so I flew.
Everything that could be annoying was annoying. I'm back, and hopefully there will be no repeat of such special circumstances and will be able to drive wherever I need to go for the rest of my life. I need to go from Virginia to Alaska next year, as well as Virginia to Tucson, Virginia to La Crosse, and hopefully Virginia to Las Vegas depending on how well I do in the poker tournament next year. Drive drive drive. Love it. See the country. Don't get abused by the TSA and airlines.
I travel to China often, for business purposes.
Comparing the seats of airplanes in China (foreign and domestic) vs the seats on China's HST (High Speed Train) is like comparing sitting on a kindergarten chair to that of a relatively comfort, full size seat, with ample leg room, even for a long-leg man like me.
I suspect that is because the seats on airplanes, even those only flying domestic routes, were affixed at the place the planes were made - Europe or America, while the China's HST, including its seats, were made inside China.
Perhaps the maker of airplane seats in America / Europe are using pygmy as their human model, while the Chinese use normal size human as model.
Even if the Chinese use their typical smaller Chinese anatomy as models it is still much larger than the pygmy that the Americans / Europeans are using.
Let's face it, flying is a better value for the money than it used to be, true lowest price means means feeling like a sardine in a can, but it's not like you don't have more comfortable options available. Question is, do you really value your comfort enough to pay extra? For long flights I'd say economy plus is almost always worth it, unless your budget is really stretched. Business, well depends on how deep your pockets are, for most people it's too much. But if you are a frequent flyer then you get business upgrade every now and then for free, which is nice.
I don't mind paying higher prices if it means more comfort in the seats. I know not everyone agrees with that, but I did a 2.5hr flight from Boston to Chicago and it was just downright uncomfortable to sit in the seat. I was in a window seat, and for some reason or another my head was -above- the window, so when I looked out i was actually looking down. I was getting queasy so I closed the window. The seat itself was not nice to sit in at all for that long either. I was so glad to get off that flight. Flying used to be "fun" to me but after that and some other recent flights, it no longer is.
"In Airline World, they call this densification, which is a silly word. Passengers call it arrrgh!"
Why does the author think densification is silly, but passengers grunting arrrgh! isn't?
Instead of desalination, would it be less silly to write "I am water, ARRRGH! I am becoming pure arrgggHHh woohoo!"
The A321 isn't the A320's successor - they didn't stop selling the A320 then begin producing the A321. The A320 is a family of aircraft, all being made concurrently (so the current models being sold are the A318, A319, A320, A321 - numbers smaller than 320 are a shrink and numbers greater than 320 are a stretch of the base A320 model).
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The airlines are doing it because W and O regulations did NOTHING. Simple as that. They need to be sued for being unsafe.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Will you please turn off the smart quotes on your iPhone? It makes reading your comment impossible because Slashdot fucking sucks and still doesn't support Unicode.
Come on, everybody -- let's lighten up.