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How A Mysterious Tech Billionaire Created Two Fortunes -- And a Global Software Sweatshop (forbes.com)
An anonymous reader writes: Forbes magazine has an in-depth piece on Joe Liemandt. As you may be aware, Liemandt was the founder of Trilogy, a startup which has been credited to help put Austin on the tech map. He is also founder of ESW Capital, a private equity firm that is scooping up software startups left and right. Forbes called him "one of the most mysterious and innovative figures in technology."
But the story explores the approach Liemandt and his team took to acquire enterprise software companies, install new leadership, lay off staff and hire significantly cheaper tech labor abroad. And the numbers are compelling -- $15 an hour C++ programmers. Those are Amazon warehouse wages -- and those $15 programming gigs don't come with much for benefits. Plus, they require you to install software to your computer that tracks surfing, keystrokes and even takes screen grabs and photos via your computer's camera -- and this is typically on a gig worker's personal computer, not an employers' machine. The story opens with this: From an office suite on the 26th floor of the iconic Frost Bank Tower in Austin, Texas, a little-known recruiting firm called Crossover is searching the globe for software engineers. Crossover is looking for anyone who can commit to a 40- or 50-hour workweek, but it has no interest in full-time employees. It wants contract workers who are willing to toil from their homes or even in local cafes. "The best people in the world aren't in your Zip code," says Andy Tryba, chief executive of Crossover, in a promotional YouTube video. Which, Tryba emphasizes, also means you don't have to pay them like they are your neighbors. "The world is going to a cloud wage."
Tryba's video has 61,717 views, but he is no random YouTube proselytizer. He worked in sales at Intel for 14 years before serving in the White House as an advisor to President Obama's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness. Since 2014, Tryba has been the right-hand man of Joe Liemandt, one of the most mysterious and innovative figures in technology. In the 1990s Liemandt was the golden boy of enterprise software, a 30 Under 30 wunderkind before there was a Forbes 30 Under 30 list. Like Bill Gates before him, he dropped out of college, in his case Stanford, to start a company, Trilogy, and build his fortune. In 1996, at the age of 27, he made the cover of Forbes, and a few months later he appeared as the youngest self-made member of The Forbes 400, with a $500 million net worth.
But the story explores the approach Liemandt and his team took to acquire enterprise software companies, install new leadership, lay off staff and hire significantly cheaper tech labor abroad. And the numbers are compelling -- $15 an hour C++ programmers. Those are Amazon warehouse wages -- and those $15 programming gigs don't come with much for benefits. Plus, they require you to install software to your computer that tracks surfing, keystrokes and even takes screen grabs and photos via your computer's camera -- and this is typically on a gig worker's personal computer, not an employers' machine. The story opens with this: From an office suite on the 26th floor of the iconic Frost Bank Tower in Austin, Texas, a little-known recruiting firm called Crossover is searching the globe for software engineers. Crossover is looking for anyone who can commit to a 40- or 50-hour workweek, but it has no interest in full-time employees. It wants contract workers who are willing to toil from their homes or even in local cafes. "The best people in the world aren't in your Zip code," says Andy Tryba, chief executive of Crossover, in a promotional YouTube video. Which, Tryba emphasizes, also means you don't have to pay them like they are your neighbors. "The world is going to a cloud wage."
Tryba's video has 61,717 views, but he is no random YouTube proselytizer. He worked in sales at Intel for 14 years before serving in the White House as an advisor to President Obama's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness. Since 2014, Tryba has been the right-hand man of Joe Liemandt, one of the most mysterious and innovative figures in technology. In the 1990s Liemandt was the golden boy of enterprise software, a 30 Under 30 wunderkind before there was a Forbes 30 Under 30 list. Like Bill Gates before him, he dropped out of college, in his case Stanford, to start a company, Trilogy, and build his fortune. In 1996, at the age of 27, he made the cover of Forbes, and a few months later he appeared as the youngest self-made member of The Forbes 400, with a $500 million net worth.
After 25 years in the software industry, I saw that this was becoming the norm. Outsourcing and cost cutting. And people wonder why software has gone to shit these days? The best people walk away from the industry as soon as they can.
But if they are any good they can do better. You aren't going to get the best people at those wages. Also maintenance is going to be a bitch.
C++ programmers at $15/hr? Written at home or in a cafe? What kind of software is it? Where is the demand for that kind of stuff?
In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice they're different. (Yogi Berra & A. Einstein)
I'd love to see some try and propose a tariff on all tech outsourcing efforts.
Want to hire cheap coders in some trash pit somewhere? 25% tariff.
Want to outsource your US teams to some shared services center in Timbuktu? 40%.
It won't happen, but it's good to watch certain types squirm.
JOSEPH
I'm looking forward to the epiphany when Western managers and "entrepreneurs" discover that foreigners can do their work far better too.
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
the white-collar worker said, "you deserve that, you didn't upgrade your skills, your work can be done anywhere, you have to compete or fail!"
No, they didn't. Stupid fucker.
And for $15/hr I'd rather bag groceries.
I bill around $80/hr, a bit less for certain customers. Even so, I'm considered cheap compared to many other contractors in my industry.
ZIP
Say one thing in politics, do the exact opposite when no one is looking. That's why they are good to follow to know where to invest.
All it would take is for people to stop voting for anyone who accepts money from corporate PACs and to vote in their primary election. Hell, if the population of /. would just show up to their primaries with that mindset it would probably be enough. If you think voter turnout's bad in a mid term you ain't seen nothing like a mid term's primary. If you want political power for the working class, that's where it is.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
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Stop whining and start helping you prick!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVXekzwkz10
These guys are fucking scum. Nothing but parasites that drain value from productive people under the guise of "job creators". The 21st century's robber barons and sweat shop owners, except their products are far inferior to that of their late predecessors.
The digital and legal shackles they put on their employees and the slave-like hours they demand "employees" work mean that we're not far off from people being paid in scrip and being forced to buy their goods in the company store, which will probably be Amazon.
Captcha: salaried
Good grief. That is fucking appalling. This Liemandt guy sounds like a complete sociopath.
Obviously, one would (should) get a separate PC and use it *solely* for this work. This also makes it easier to deduct it 100% as a business expense.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
What a horrible working ethic.
Sure, any kid from Cairo can "teach himself to code" by watching Youtube videos. But that doesn't mean they'll produce anything of quality that's actually maintainable. I've seen the quality that comes out of India, and it's atrocious. I'm not the only one, essentially everyone in the industry I've talked to that's experienced outsourced Indian coders has said the same thing. I see no reason it'd be any different from anywhere else where prices are cheap.
This is a typical Forbes article written for Business Boys who think they can just outsource software dev to India for 1/10 the price and expect the same results. Just recycle the same article from 2002, and change a couple details around.
There's certainly been some progress in the last 20 years that this is a fantasy. 20 years ago everyone though there wouldn't be any developers in the US that made any money. People were discouraged from going into software as a career for this very reason. Yet here we are 20 years later, and Software developers are bigger than ever!
Are you reading the same slashdot as I am? Or are you actively trying to filter out those kinds of posts? Just have a looksie in the archives, there certainly is no shortage of them.
No doubt not all, but a lot did say that dummy.
Obviously, one would (should) get a separate PC and use it *solely* for this work.
You're not going to be happy doing that at $15 an hour.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Thanks capitalism
âoe Good grief. That is fucking appalling. This Liemandt guy sounds like a complete sociopath âoe
Corporate surveillance of employees is fairly common. Here, they just call it âoe metrics âoe.
have built for themselves. part of me says why not! But then another part of me says I need to keep doing things the way I have been all along. The price is, I will always be closer to the edge than to comfort. But it is a personal choice that I am happy "I can make".
;)
Just my 2 cents
This piece of shit was taking home $15/hr is he.
This model works best for crappy near-end-of-life "enterprise" software, where all the original developers are long gone, and you're in maintenance mode.
These private-equity types buy up loads of failing enterprise software companies and offshore everything. They fund the purchase by loading up the victim companies with the debt used to purchase them.
It works best with _sticky_ software -- systems which are very, very hard for customers to get rid of. Bend over your customers, fuck them hard on recurring license revenue, do a little "labour cost arbitrage".
The spivs who are doing this are making BANK. The insiders are getting something like 40% return on capital, even accounting for losing bets. Investors are bashing down doors to invest in these equity funds.
I saw this with another notorious (and VERY large) San Francisco-based private equity outfit, who've pulls a similar caper, although not quite as draconian -- they have just opened an enormous development centre in Bucharest instead of pimping out contract developers online. Eventually, they'll wise up after chasing the cheapest competent developers in the world, and implement a digital treadmill, as these amoral worms have.
If you're running or working for an enterprise software company, here's a hard home truth: if you embrace mediocrity or fail outright, this is your fate: you'll be bought out by these vultures, cut up for scrap, and everything you've worked for will be worth ought, while these fat cats walk away laughing.
Nobody gives a fuck. You exchange money for lines of code. Anyone who has seen how people code when they're minimally invested in the overall result can see the problem. It's like the CDO game: developers are aggregated and, through some magic math, somehow a whole lot of worthless coding is turned into tranches of excellent coding, and some lesser coding, and at some point someone will realize that it's actually all shit and then it hits the fan. But as long as these people have extracted heaps of actual money before it all blew up, they're fine and they'll do it again.
You'll probably find that anybody who's got more than a couple of million to their name, probably stepped on a lot of necks to get their wealth. Being a psychopath is almost mandatory in that line of business. You have to not care at all about the suffering and toil of others.
And who's going to pay for all this retraining.
This is where there is a role for the public sector to oversee this process, and help redeploy resources quickly to where they can maximise value for everybody.
The most competitive countries out there see this, and the public and private sectors work hand-in-glove. Markets are generally good, but occasionally fail.
Otherwise, you get the bad situation, where you've got carpet-bagging for-profit colleges bankrupting desperate people for worthless qualifications -- and key worker shortages everywhere.
I mean, what is $15/hour C++ going to look like? The mind boggles.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This also makes it easier to deduct it 100% as a business expense.
Home office deductions are an American, or at least 1st world, concept.
These 3rd world workers are not reporting their income, or even filing tax returns. So they don't need any deductions.
You'll probably find that anybody who's got more than a couple of million to their name, probably stepped on a lot of necks to get their wealth. Being a psychopath is almost mandatory in that line of business. You have to not care at all about the suffering and toil of others.
spot the liberal in 3..2...1
Isn't nice how some people become filthy rich off the backs of others?
Wasn't this the Computer Associates model a decade or two ago? The products usually shrank in market-share after purchase, and CA's reputation eventually caught up with them. I smell another hit-and-run gimmick.
Table-ized A.I.
You see there is a shortage of tech workers And articles like this are not helping attract the next generation of talent
You pretend to pay us, we pretend to work. I can guarantee you he's not getting any good C++ for that $15/hr.
Instead of this pathetic attempt at smart rethoric, why don't you try to offer a counter argument ?
Deduct it as an expense? You mean stick a depreciation schedule on it over a few years?
Back during WWII, a luftwaffe commander once said to his men:
"If I ever find out one of you has shot a parachute, he better not ever show his face here again, because I will shoot him myself. This is something you don't do for the ennemy, you do this for yourself, so you don't completely lose your humanity."
And that commander was a fucking nazi. So what does that make that Liemandt guy ?
It works best with _sticky_ software -- systems which are very, very hard for customers to get rid of. Bend over your customers, fuck them hard on recurring license revenue, do a little "labour cost arbitrage".
In other words, this is the end-game for Salesforce, after they have all your data? SAAS ftw.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Crossover is looking for anyone who can commit to a 40- or 50-hour workweek, but it has no interest in full-time employees.
This right here is one of the major issues facing US workers. Employers want to screw us over at every turn.
And we've been so brainwashed by the 2009 Recession's "effects", ie higher unemployment, stagnant wages, etc.. workers leap at the chance to be ass-raped as a 'independent contractors.' This needs to stop.
Or for that pay. At the very most you are getting mediocre people. If you sell their labor at a steep profit, that will still make you rich, but your customers are getting screwed.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Indeed. Great coders actually spend a lot of time thinking, and little time coding. That does not fit this slave-labor model at all though.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
In the US maybe. It's not legal in most of Europe.
"One of the most mysterious and innovative figures in technology..."
Really? Who says and what new revolutionary break through in software did this guy or his company produce?
I have a different view.
How about you employee people in third world countries and use their labor to destroy the living standards of 1st world countries?
That is one of the tenants of Globalism.
It isn't innovative, and it certain isn't mysterious.
If it seems immoral, it is. Capitalism requires even rules for everyone on both ends, both Capital and Labor.
These people should be paid 1st world country wages, or their should be Tariff's on the labor.
Lets see how innovative and mysterious this guy is when he has to compete on a level playing field with everyone else.
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
If someone is dumb enough to choose being treated as a low-skilled typist or to load spyware on a personal-use computer, they deserve misery. The gig-economy means "you're the boss": Start acting like it and demand normal working conditions. Otherwise, one is just an employee choosing to forsake all employment protections (what little there is in the USA) at minimum wage.
Nah, you're just butthurt that you've discovered your talents are not unique or important.
Price discovery is a bitch.
For months, I've seen a company called Crossover offering salaries of $200,000 - $400,000 a year for Senior Programmers. Yet, the second you begin your application process it seems as if they are milking you for free work.
Any company that makes you complete a work-from-home coding exercise that takes more than 30 minutes of your time (often they take over 8 hours!) is not worth the effort. You won't get the job and even if you do you'll wish you hadn't.
What computer science students get coming out of school is appalling. The american way is to lose all sense of morality and don't care what kind of quality to get the job done. I tell every college student I know not get into computers. It isn't rewarding and fun like it use to be when it was starting out. It is cut throat and no once cares about doing anything properly. If you can talk out of your arse and act like you know what you are talking about you can go far no matter even though the actual work you do gets fixed by people who know what they are doing. If it wasn't for Linux I would not be in the industry.
Just install their crapware on a VM.
Then remember to put a cycling video showing yourself "working" as the input to the webcam et voila.
That is just a repetition of that axiom that "behind every great fortune is a crime" of some sort.
On the downside the taxman pulls out a saw and takes 20% of their laptop as a tax.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
ahahahahahahahahaa, truth hurts so much, ouchie..
Perhaps he's griping about the use of singular "worker" with plural "they".
Though the way he writes it's pretty unlikely he'd notice.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
And again the myth of the self-made man strikes again. To silence the critics that this is yet another plutocrat trying to keep them down, we must pretend that he did it all on his own, from humble beginnings.
Well, if you do some googling, the truth soon comes out: so-called self-made man is just another rich boy. Liemandt's father was none other than the direct subordinate of GE's Jack Welch; another sociopath millionaire. So that's Liemandt: another spoiled rich boy sociopath.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
The counter argument is that most rich people inherited their wealth. For instance, the 10 richest families in medieval Venice still make up the 7 richest families today. And while some people get rich by being a doctor, or by inventing brilliant stuff, or winning the lottery, most people just inherit it and if successful, expand it a bit.
Still, a lot of people who get very wealthy do act like sociopaths.
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Globalization arrived for COBOL developers after Y2K and companies have been screwing their dev teams ever since. I don't know why you think it's just started.
Democrat partisan cyberstalking faggots sure do like gratuitous overuse of the word "faggot".
See subject: I'm so sick & tired of /. BULLIES. You shitweasels have nothing better to do than HARASS, STALK
Hypocrite. You're the most harassing, stalking bully I've ever seen on this site and I've been reading it consistently since about '98.
What kind of retard speak is this?
At the bottom of the
Assuming the code works as promised, foreign developers are not under the same legal framework. This is a huge risk if you don't want someone copying and reselling the software you just paid for. I have seen this happen a few times and always assume either 1. the manager is an idiot or 2. it's a low valued project = low pay.
...and for $300/hour, you can get a C++ programmer that won't try to write a 50-line shell script using 100K lines of C++. :-)
(bignameschool) required installing something like this "virtual proctoring" software. On a personal computer. Which required flash. With no uninstall. From a third-party. Did I mention it also scanned your hard-drive and processes?
Seriously.
Seriously.
Yes it is, if you voluntarily agree to it, as all these contractors do.
(Aurea, an ESW/Crossover sibling, has workers in portugal and england and spain all with this software legally installed and running and mining its data).
I'd never "cry victim" to ne'er-do-wells (TROLLS, not all /.ers) either.
U EVEN HELPED ME https://science.slashdot.org/c... (& then realizing it you quit trying to make me look bad via what you thought were lies on hosts as "ME" IN YOUR IMPERSONATIONS of me e.g. https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... on speculative execution attack: Hosts PREVENT 'EM, joke's on you)
APK
P.S.=> 2nd to last link's KILLING U THAT U HELPED ME & got me to see if hosts stop portsmash/meltdown/spectre & yes - hosts WORK on 'em - U LOSE + FAIL a PORTFILTER TEST https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...