Slashdot Mirror


Americans Are Moving Less Than Ever, and It's Bad For the Economy (qz.com)

An anonymous reader writes: The best job for someone is not always in the area where they live. Often times, the job that will pay them most, and make the best use of their skills means moving to another city, state or country. Though making the choice to move can be difficult emotionally, it is extremely good for economic growth. Productive people make productive economies. Unfortunately for the US economy, people don't move they like they used to. According to recently released data from the US Census, only 10.1% of adults moved homes from August 2017 to August 2018. This is the lowest rate of moving since the government began collected data in 1948. The census tracks moves within counties, within states, or across states, and no matter how you look at it, moving rates are way down from just 15 years ago. For example, from 2002 to 2003, 2.8% of Americans moved across state lines. From 2017 to 2018, it was just 1.5%.

346 comments

  1. Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you bought a house in 2014, and need to move, you'll be looking at housing that is 50% more expensive than it was then. That's a hard pill to swallow when CPI-adjusted wages have been going down over the same time.

    1. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Ichijo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, and it's a good thing the home you are selling is also worth 50% more!

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    2. Re:Housing is unaffordable by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0, Troll

      You do realize that's apple and oranges because 50% more depends on the housing market. Which means that the increase in the price of your house does not necessarily off-set the cost of buying a new house. Moron.

    3. Re:Housing is unaffordable by marcle · · Score: 2

      If you bought a house in 2014, and need to move, you'll be looking at housing that is 50% more expensive than it was then. That's a hard pill to swallow when CPI-adjusted wages have been going down over the same time.

      Exactly this. When housing was generally affordable and readily available, it was relatively easy to get established somewhere else. Now, the combination of housing scarcity and expense, coupled with such things as high college debt and low savings, means that it's too much of a hurdle to pull up roots and move for anybody but the most affluent. Especially if you have family/friends in your current location, you'd have to have an extremely attractive job offer, maybe plus moving expenses, before it would make sense to do a geographical.

      Either that, or be so desperate that you're basically bumming around looking for work, not a great situation to be in these days.

    4. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all homes are created equal.

      You're also assuming folks are moving FROM a home where they have equity and not a condo or an apartment.

      If I were to sell my home today and move to another State into a similar sized and age home, it would cost me at least 2x - 4x as much depending on the State.

      No thank you.

    5. Re:Housing is unaffordable by bkmoore · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It costs a lot of money to both sell and buy. The break even point is only if the property that you buy costs less than the one you sold minus the transaction costs on both ends of the deal. In that situation you're throwing away x-dollars in equity that you would have had if you stayed put. Real Estate is not a liquid asset that you can simply push "Sell" on and get your money, despite what many Real Estate "professionals" will tell new buyers.

    6. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that's apple and oranges because 50% more depends on the housing market.

      Not sure what you are saying here. Do you mean that some areas would see a 50% increase while others might've seen only a 10% increase (or even a decrease)?

      Or do you mean that 50% more on a $300,000 house nets you more than 50% more on a $200,000 house?

      If the latter, then I fail to see how that is relevant. Yes the person who bought a $200,000 house in 2014 would not be able to afford a $450,000 ($300,000 plus half of $300,000, aka $150,000) house today. But they couldn't have afforded the same house when it was $300,000 in 2014! A proper comparison would be, can the person who bought a $200,000 in 2014 afford a $300,000 ($200,000 plus half of $200,000, aka $100,000) house today? And it is not clear that the answer is no.

    7. Re:Housing is unaffordable by apoc.famine · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There is nothing wrong with the house prices in the vast majority of the US. Housing is generally affordable and readily available. No, not in the coastal cities, but you can't generalize based on those.

      I don't get why people feel trapped by family, friends, or circumstance to the extent that they are willing to live in places with shitty costs of living, essentially making no money. We live in a giant country with tons of interesting little cities and countless interesting jobs to do. You can live a very happy, prosperous life in a very large number of places in the US. No, you won't end up Unicorn-founder rich, but if that dream is keeping you in silicon valley, you're a dumbass to begin with.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    8. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the transaction costs should come down. Real estate agents do less than they ever have before, yet still collect their traditional fee - that's ripe to come down. Automated appraisals are starting to be accepted, which should help. Other automation, like automating paperwork, should help, too.

    9. Re:Housing is unaffordable by bkmoore · · Score: 1

      .... Automated appraisals are starting to be accepted, which should help.....

      You have to really see a house to accurately appraise it. I'm no expert, but have both bought and sold homes in the past and will pay the money out of pocket to have a home professionally appraised, as a sort of insurance policy. It's the same as having a trusted mechanic check out a used car before pulling the trigger.

    10. Re:Housing is unaffordable by apoc.famine · · Score: 2

      The break even point is only if the property that you buy costs less than the one you sold minus the transaction costs on both ends of the deal.

      That's one of the dumber things I've heard in a long time.

      That assumes that the property you're buying never changes value. But that flies in the face of reality. Yes, real estate isn't a liquid asset, but over time, it's almost always an investment that significantly increases in value. And while you can cherry pick times and places where this is not true, in general, it holds true.

      If your plan is to hold onto real estate for such a short period of time that it doesn't increase in value and the transaction costs are a major component of the transaction, you're just speculating. That's not what 99.9% of people do, because it's risky and stupid.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    11. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Cimexus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep absolutely. I moved to the US from Australia a few years ago and holy hell, housing is cheap here compared to much of the world.

      A very typical, average suburban home is pushing $1 million in most Australian cities. Here, outside a few bubble zones (e.g. Bay Area), you can pick up similar houses for a couple of hundred thousand. I've lived in Asia (Singapore, Japan) and Europe (England, France) as well, and the US is cheaper than all of them.

      Mind you, there is a downside ... and that is property taxes. I pay a pretty hefty property tax bill in the US on my place that would not be an ongoing expense back in Australia, so I supposed I have to factor that in. Still it would take many decades of property taxes to add up to the difference in initial cost.

    12. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That analogy is most analogous to an inspection, not an appraisal. We had this discussion mere days ago.

    13. Re:Housing is unaffordable by cayenne8 · · Score: 0
      Well, plus you have to consider that the house belongs to the peoples parents.....

      I mean, I'm shocked that so many younger people have been and continue to live off their parents past age of 30. What's with that?

      MOVE the fuck out, struggle, live poor until you can make it, that's what the rest of us have done for modern history till now.

      And no, if you want to succeed and build salary and position, it is NOT going to be with the company you are at. Learn to job shop, keep your interview skills up....and be willing to MOVE to where the jobs are.

      It should not be such a tragic and scary experience moving away from Mommy and Daddy, to a new city/state. Be grown ups, be independent.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    14. Re:Housing is unaffordable by goose-incarnated · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, and it's a good thing the home you are selling is also worth 50% more!

      Presumably you're moving from a place with fewer jobs to a place with more jobs, hence the house you are selling will have increased in value much less (or even decreased in value) than the corresponding house at your destination.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    15. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your highly reductive analysis of the housing crisis is inspiring! More people should read this and "Just do it" ... oh wait that's for Nikes.

    16. Re:Housing is unaffordable by TWX · · Score: 1

      Sure, because 40% of the population living in coastal cities is something that should be readily ignored when it comes to talking about numbers.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    17. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you didn't read what was written. This is about selling your home and buying another. Yes your new home will gain value, but guess what? So will the one you sold. So the gain in value of your new home will not magically negate the 5-10% (taken from your equity) you will lose to transaction costs. Not to mention if you are paying a mortgage you reset the clock are are now at the interest-heavy opening section.

    18. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty sure he means the first one. The 50% increase is concentrated in certain areas, namely the ones people want to buy houses in. In places where everyone is selling prices are dropping.

    19. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people were moving for productivity, they'd be moving to those crowded coastal cities, not away. This is how each boom cycle goes. There wasn't a boom in rural/suburban industries. Like any other high-risk investment strategy, those migrating towards work right when the business cycle implodes are the ones often left holding the bag. They experience the cost of moving, the loss of income and opportunity they were counting on, and quite possibly asset price inversion. They don't have the emergency reserves to wait out the low times and benefit from the next cycle going up again.

      That this migration is slowing (again) suggests to me that the drawbridge is going up on this boom cycle. The people contemplating moving in can no longer rationalize the cost of moving and increased cost of living versus the expected increase in income and opportunity. The numbers don't work, or at least not under the risk model they are willing to accept. If the cycle really tanks, I'd expect a reverse migration as people out of work decide that the cost of moving is worth it to escape to an area with lower cost of living where they can attempt to reboot their career (if they assume their employment opportunities are already dead either way).

    20. Re:Housing is unaffordable by rnturn · · Score: 0

      Actually, if you're moving from an area where there are fewer jobs, you can expect the value of the home you're trying to sell to be decreasing. Why the heck would anyone want to buy a home where there aren't many jobs? Those houses are going to be on the market for a longer time and the pressure to be lowering the price to get it sold will be the only thing that's increasing. Only people who love really long commutes or the independently wealthy are going to be interested in moving to an area with few jobs.

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    21. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yup. lemme sell the 2200 sq ft $140k house (with a current mortgage payoff amount of ~$95k) in fargo north dakota so i can move to some shit city out west where 1 month rent of a 0 bedroom studio is like 5x more than existing payment + taxes + insurance. what a great fucking idea. all so i can go from $65k to $90k annually?

      #howaboutnope

    22. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, if you move to a larger city, housing can cost 6-10x or more than what it costs in rural small towns! Affordable housing is not being constructed anywhere, because of the (not necessarily true) idea that affordable housing attracts drug and criminal activity. Also, developers want to make as much money as possible, so only want to build high end houses and apartments! This is why we have some people in the largest tech centers living in campers and motor homes!

    23. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying a house that was 150k and is now 300k won't cover a 2nd 300k house when it's sold keeping the mortgage payment in check... you know it's just easier to say you're wrong. What you're talking about is moving up in the housing market from a starter home, the spread on that has drastically increased and with salaries in the shitter, most folk don't have 50-150k to piss on a bigger house or an extra $1500 a month for mortgage.

    24. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And, the government doesnâ(TM)t want you to move.
      Then, they can just raise taxes all the time.
      Or make an exit tax like Illinois

    25. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1, Informative

      You're also assuming folks are moving FROM a home where they have equity

      Given that the OP was talking about a person who bought a house in 2014, it's safe to assume that they are moving from a home in which they have equity.

      and not a condo or an apartment.

      It sounds like you don't understand how condos work. People buy condos, just like they buy houses. A condo's owner has equity in their condo, the same way that a house's owner has equity in their house. A condo's owner may rent their condo out to someone else, which I'd wager is what's confusing you, but that's just as true of houses as it is condos, so it's incorrect to draw a distinction between the two.

      If I were to sell my home today and move to another State into a similar sized and age home, it would cost me at least 2x - 4x as much depending on the State.

      If that's actually true, yours is an abnormal situation on which we should NOT model expected outcomes. But given what appears to be a lack of awareness on your part with regards to how housing and equity works, I'm inclined to think you're simply unaware of housing prices available elsewhere. I'd love to hear the numbers for your situation and which state you're in.

    26. Re:Housing is unaffordable by jeff4747 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is nothing wrong with the house prices in the vast majority of the US. Housing is generally affordable and readily available. No, not in the coastal cities, but you can't generalize based on those.

      The problem is most of the jobs are in the coastal cities. So cheap prices in middle-of-nowhere Nebraska aren't all that helpful.

      (And before anyone says "work remotely!!" that is frequently not a stable employment situation)

      I don't get why people feel trapped by family, friends, or circumstance to the extent that they are willing to live in places with shitty costs of living, essentially making no money

      I lived in a dying rust-belt city with an incredibly interesting job that paid well and a fairly low cost of living. I moved.

      Why? I had kids. And the thing about cheap places to live is the schools are utterly terrible in a very large portion of them. I'm not going to cripple my children's entire future so that I can gloat about a low cost of living.

    27. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, if you can sell it!

    28. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct. When housing prices reverted to the mean in 2010 it was the best thing that could have possibly happened. Then over the years prices have skyrocketed to insane valuations, which is the worst thing that could have ever happened. So now the economy is in the shitter until house prices revert back to the mean again.

    29. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually you don't have to see a house to appraise it. Almost the entire value of a house can be determined from simple metrics: sq ft, number of rooms, garage, porches, property size, etc, and comparing those values to similar properties and adjusting value for minor differences. With just that you can get withing a few percent of actual appraisal value

    30. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yikes, and I thought it was bad when the house I bought in 2005 had increased about 40% when it was on the market last summer... I was interested in getting it back, but not at that premium, and definitely did not want to get into a bidding war with a bunch of Californians who are moving here to Texas. Guess I'll continue to rent until this bubble bursts and I can get more house for my dollar.

    31. Re:Housing is unaffordable by rogoshen1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      on the flip side.. stay with mom and dad while you get your career off the ground. save up your 20% and buy a house. If you need to move, rent it.

      Case in point, kid I work with is 24 lives with his mom and dad still, but is able to save 80/90% of his net income. That seems vastly better financially in the long run than running out on your own immediately.

    32. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, you're wrong. Inspection looks for damage or code issues. Appraisal is value and quality aesthetics issues. Entirely different, you're wrong.

    33. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Actually you don't have to see a house to appraise it" - wrong.

      "With just that you can get withing a few percent of actual appraisal value" - which you can do just by knowing the address or even just zip code, you idiot.

      Go on, buy a house without seeing it you stupid faggot. I would enjoy watching the result of you being as dumb as Shanghai Bill's fantasies about how homebuying actually works, lol.

    34. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      That sounds great if mom and dad offer you a place to live instead of charging you rent or just kicking you out, and 20% of a house isn't half a decade of 100% of your earnings.

      So yeah, if you have rich generous parents and a good job and live in a cheap area, it's totally easy!

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    35. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet you have little to no equity in your current home, since you have only been living there for four years, making minimum payments on a 30 year mortgage.

    36. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention that the Fed has raised rates so that your buying power has decreased by about 10%. The payments on a loan for $200,000 5 years ago are the same payments as a loan for $180,000 today. When you couple that with declining real income, it's no wonder people aren't moving ... they can't.

    37. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but unlike you, theres little opportunity for the kind of economic growth required to make that struggling worth it.

      Things are not as they were when you made a place for yourself.

    38. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't get why people feel trapped by family, friends

      It's called a soul, my friend. When you are human, you care that your kids get to see their grandparents on a regular basis, get to have sleepovers and grandma and grandpa's house, and you get to keep the circle of friends you've built up over decades. Only a soulless ghoul would just walk away from that for some cash.

    39. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real estate growth can continue long term if people aren't buying homes because they're too expensive, right?

    40. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Most people gladly accept terms that would give them very very little equity in only 4 years.

      People do not typically choose the mortgage that they can afford that has the lowest total long-term cost; they usually choose whatever scheme is still legal that gives them the worst possible terms with the lowest monthly payment. And that means most of your equity comes at the end of a very long loan payback period.

      A condo owner has some equity, but they also pay a lot of rent. But they're not likely to have a lot of equity after 4 years, because if they could afford monthly payments that high they would have just bought a house with a slightly longer mortgage. The reason people buy condos is because they don't want to have take care of house; it is the most ownership you can get with the least responsibilities attached.

      And of course, it all depends where you want to move. You can easily buy land with a house on it for under $2000 in lots of places. About a quarter of the country has prices like that available.

      The reality is, if you're moving to a comparable place, then it is no different than moving across town. And if the new place is more expensive, it means you're trying to move up in the world! If it is less expensive, it means you're downsizing. Both options are broadly available.

    41. Re:Housing is unaffordable by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, let's look at the data:

      Here are the median home prices by State for 2018:

      West Virginia $96,800
      Oklahoma $121,500
      Arkansas $123,600
      Mississippi $124,600
      Alabama $129,000
      Ohio $136,700
      Kansas $137,800
      Indiana $139,000
      Iowa $141,500
      Kentucky $142,900
      Louisiana $147,300
      Michigan $148,100
      Missouri $157,100
      Nebraska $161,500
      South Carolina $163,200
      Tennessee $163,200
      Pennsylvania $171,000
      Illinois $178,000
      North Carolina $179,200
      Georgia $182,200
      Wisconsin $183,400
      South Dakota $184,400
      Texas $190,400
      New Mexico $191,200
      Vermont $201,400
      North Dakota $205,400
      Wyoming $222,300
      Florida $228,700
      Maine $229,700
      Montana $229,900
      Minnesota $230,800
      Delaware $232,500
      Connecticut $241,700
      Idaho $246,200
      Arizona $246,800
      Virginia $254,000
      New Hampshire $271,100
      Rhode Island $277,900
      New York $286,200
      Maryland $286,700
      Nevada $287,400
      Alaska $310,400
      New Jersey $323,400
      Utah $325,400
      Oregon $339,000
      Colorado $370,600
      Washington $377,100
      Massachusetts $402,500
      California $546,100
      Washington D.C. $576,100
      Hawaii $620,100

      Texas is roughly in the middle and homes on my street ( 3/2/2 full brick, ~2k sq ft, 1/4 acre ) are appraising at ~$150k, selling around ~$170k. So, assuming my home is paid for ( and it is ) I can choose pretty much the first dozen or so States on this list without having another mortgage.

      Unfortunately, I have no desire to live in any of those States and the ones I would like to live in, fall near the bottom of the list.
      Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Colorado. ( Hawaii would be nice, but that price is ludicrous ) All of which are easily double the cost of my home.

      So, do I move and spend the next 15-30 years ( depending on the loan ) paying off another mortgage, or do I put that money into retirement accounts instead. . .

      Decisions, decisions . . . .

    42. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      During the .com boom there was a hiring crunch everywhere, including for programmers in small cities.

      For people in small cities it was an even bigger boom than for people in big cities, because with an overheated labor market they were making almost the big-city pay.

      Slashdot didn't come from a big coastal city.

    43. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Live poor.
      Why?
      Why get into hundreds of thousands of debt.

    44. Re:Housing is unaffordable by epine · · Score: 2

      Yes, real estate isn't a liquid asset, but over time, it's almost always an investment that significantly increases in value.

      Historical norms should be taken with a grain of salt. Additionally, certain gambling games always go up, until the black swan comes along and multiplies by zero.

      How many 2008s can the average person soak up in one lifetime?

      Russ Roberts interviews Nassim Nicholas Taleb on rationality, risk, and skin in the game — 5 March 2008

      I find Taleb to be more aggressive than necessary, and I quickly get to the point of "haven't you belaboured this enough, already?" and then I get onto the Internet, and I think "well, maybe not too belaboured in the larger context".

      I tend to regard "almost always" as a dead giveaway that someone is sweeping survival risk under the handy carpet of historical norms.

      There's even a worse theorem here. It's pretty much a law of human nature that if you can convince a large enough group of people to onboard some substantial exposure exclusively because it "almost always" goes well, market insiders will be quick to engineer a shocking reversal on that long-standing historical trend.

      Big Finance can engineer almost any outcome these days, it just needs to be big enough to justify a systemic assault (with enough sheep on the wrong side). This kind of engineering at scale doesn't come cheap, so it tends to be carefully paced (also spacing out due to the undue-regulation minimization sheep-shear spacing theorem).

      Gone are the days where it's safe to make major investments facing backwards in time.

    45. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't understand because you're oblivious to how careers and life have changed for newer generations. Millennials typically graduate with ~$30,000 in debt, and if they're lucky find a job that hasn't kept up with inflation from since 1970. Meanwhile housing prices have gone through the roof, so they can't afford their debt, a house, and the increased cost of living.

    46. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Sure, because 40% of the population living in coastal cities is something that should be readily ignored when it comes to talking about numbers.

      That same 40% created the problem that they experience. Fucking solve your own problems, especially if your voting has created it.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    47. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More than half the people live in coastal or big cities. It is even more foolish to generalize in a way that excludes those areas. Most of us like clean running water, stable electrical service, wired internet, easy access to a variety food sources and, you know, jobs. Those things aren't found in the millions of acres of unoccupied Nevada desert, Alaskan tundra or other wilderness areas.

      If you want to claim land is cheap, you need to price the first quarter acre including water, sewer, power and internet connection hook up before you starting trying to claim you can get 40 acres for ten grand.

    48. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      State averages mean very little unless when you're forced to move to a thriving metropolitan area to be anywhere near the job.

    49. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Some people are so out of touch with modern times.

      I, like others had a good paying job up til the recession brought forth lay offs. The pursuit of interviews revealed i could get the same job position with other companies, but with a drastic pay cut for the same level of work productivity or more. (Basically $20,000 less a year to work harder).

      That's not chump change, that's the $20k a year I would have saved for unexpected financial emergencies, retirement, comprehensive insurance plans, and a down payment on a house. That's all it takes to stagnate someone's financial journey.

      Not to mention, moving requires a large upfront investment and the hope that a better paying job is worth it when comparing the cost of living in said area.

    50. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20% of the house, using my post-tax income, would mean 6 years of saving in my current location.

    51. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an investment, Real Estate under performs vs an S&P500 index fund. That's without even considering maintenance of the property, and property taxes. If you want to expose your investment portfolio to real estate, buy shares in a REIT. Houses are terrible investments for the average person.

    52. Re:Housing is unaffordable by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      While your point is taken, a much larger percentage of these type of kids never learn to fend for themselves because they had helicopter parents who always took care of their every whim, and kept them bubble wrapped away from all the germs and scary people. Kids and young adults need to learn how to deal with adversity when mommy and daddy aren't there to protect them.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    53. Re:Housing is unaffordable by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      I'd argue that "most" people don't, but a large enough number did to help create the housing crisis. Most people who were adults at the time of that crisis now understand the down side of such decisions. Whereas previously, many thought that the housing market would just keep going and going. Yes, we should have jailed every one of those bankers involved in selling risky mortgages, but I'd also argue that the vast majority of people who accepted them were bad at math and play the lotto every week.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    54. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Lanthanide · · Score: 1

      The whole point of rising house prices is that your equity goes up.

      So you buy a house for $400k with a $300k mortgage. After 4 years your mortgage principal is at $270k, but your house value has gone up to $500k.

      Your original equity was $100k, but now it's $230k.

    55. Re:Housing is unaffordable by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      A state by state comparison shows you very little. You're better off comparing major cities/urban areas...or rural/suburban if that's what you're looking for. Most places where you pay more, you also make more. You need to compare the local median incomes. For example, here in VA, I live in Fairfax county where the median income is $115k (https://datausa.io/profile/geo/fairfax-county-va/) and home is $553k. Since you're in TX, I'll pick Houston for comparison (https://datausa.io/profile/geo/fairfax-county-va/?compare=houston-tx) $47k income and 163k housing.

      I moved to this area 36 years ago, and lived poor for a few years. But now that I'm nearing retirement I'll be able to move away to a much lower cost of living area and take the equity I have to buy something outright, or just rent and spend it on vacations until I can't walk anymore...why be house rich and cash poor in retirement?

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    56. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep absolutely. I moved to the US from Australia a few years ago and holy hell, housing is cheap here compared to much of the world.

      Yes, it's amazing what happens when you don't have 50% of your income stolen by the government to provide free for everyone else.

    57. Re:Housing is unaffordable by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      "When housing was generally affordable and readily available......means that it's too much of a hurdle to pull up roots and move for anybody but the most affluent."

      Totally false. You need to look up the meaning of affluent. My kid who was three years out of college and just married to a 24 year old bought a $350k house without any help. Granted they're dual income, but that's the norm these days, and hardly "affluent".

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    58. Re:Housing is unaffordable by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      That 40% is making incomes much higher on average than the other 60%.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    59. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get a feeling it may be you who does not understand how condos work.

      When buying a condo, always remember, in a housing crash, they're always the first to lose value, and the last to gain. Condos are by far and away the most risky form of real estate to purchase.

    60. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Flyingfenix · · Score: 1

      That is, assuming your parents will let you keep living with them at this age, and assuming they'll let you keep all of your earnings (house expenses you know). That said, if they agree, I believe living with parents (but working to start a carreer soundly without too much debt) is a very sensible strategy.

      You do not "waste" tons of money paying rent, full maintenance costs (electricity, etc), do not have to buy/finance lots of appliances and a zillions small things that are needed to fully equip a house, that are cheap when taken individually, but collectivelly they cost a lot.

      I had the luck of being in agreement with my parents about these issues and got to live with them until my late 20s. When I moved, I had saved so much money that the house I purchased was paid almost entirely upfront, and I started with a mortgage that was less than 10% than my earnings at the time (after taxes). Had I chosen to not do some restoration/redecoration work, I would've paid it ALL upfront, no debt at all.

      Also, I believe housing's first and foremost functions is to live within and NOT as an investment. You need a ceiling above your head _before_ you need "investments". Granted, houses _can_ be a nice and sound form of investment, but I think of them first as a place to live and then as investment. The related conclusion is that I'd _never_ compromise or risk the safety of having a place to live because of investment opportunities, nor ever risk it by being so much deep into debt that the loss of a job could push me into a foreclosure or such.

    61. Re: Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're assuming everyone has a house to sell. I'd guess most people move across state lines when they (i) finish high school and (ii) complete a degree or apprenticeship of some sort. These people don't have a valuable home to sell, and can be motivated to stay with their parents or live in a shared appartment with old friends instead of moving to a random place with a better job. The people who have a valuable home to sell are those that are likely to already have settled down and started a family, and they're reluctant to move anyway for social and emotional reasons.

    62. Re:Housing is unaffordable by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      Posting to remove accidental down-moderation on you. Sorry!

    63. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 3, Insightful

      MOVE the fuck out, struggle, live poor until you can make it, that's what the rest of us have done for modern history till now.

      This is the single dumbest thing I've read in a while. IF you get along with your parents, AND they are offering/allowing a sweet deal, it makes significant financial sense to live with them until preconditions are violated. You can put a lot of money away like this. A lot of people have done this through history, and in some other countries this is the norm. I think this became common in the US about 80 years ago many more urban jobs were opening while rural jobs were in massive decline. But things have changed, I see kids living with their parents being much more common for a while.

      And no, if you want to succeed and build salary and position, it is NOT going to be with the company you are at. Learn to job shop, keep your interview skills up....and be willing to MOVE to where the jobs are.

      20 years ago, when I graduated from the university, companies would pay for my move. It was just assumed. I happened to work in a local job for a while that, at the time was an amazing deal . A few years later something better came along that offset not only what I was saving on rent, but then some, in a good area. So I moved, and had quite a lot saved up in the interim.

      These days though, getting your future employer to cover your moving expenses is not obvious. Some simply will not, others require VP approval, and a few of the richest and most successful will cover a fraction, maybe enough to justify the cost.

      The thing to remember is, by the time you move, they may no longer need you. I have seen several people caught in the space of 6 weeks, move across country and then find they had no job afterall. It is a risk to be wary of. 3 years ago I'd have said take the risk. Right now the market is tapering off and I think we'll be hitting a recession in 6 months, it's about the last moment to make this move if you can do it quickly.

      I don't understand the sense of moral obligation we are placing on children to leave the nest. They will want to do so for personal reasons, but it isn't necessarily the smartest choice.

    64. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      I would only charge my kids rent if they were lazy and unemployed. You don't stop being a parent just because your kid turns 18, and, unfortunately for many of us, you don't stop being a kid just because you turn 18. Some people need a bit more time and some encouragement.

      But rich or poor, unless I was barely able to put food on the table while they were growing up, it seems as though my costs wouldn't have increased any to let them stay around until they chose to move out, or I approach retirement. Then they can take care of me. If THAT doesn't motivate them to move out, then there's no problem to solve.

    65. Re:Housing is unaffordable by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Seek help. You need therapy for your wide variety of obvious issues.

    66. Re:Housing is unaffordable by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      The problem is most of the jobs are in the coastal cities. So cheap prices in middle-of-nowhere Nebraska aren't all that helpful.

      If all you think exists in the country are coastal cities and middle-of-nowhere Nebraska, you're speaking from a place of deep ignorance. Go explore a little bit. You'll be really surprised at what you find.

      You are wrong about the job situation. Very, very wrong.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    67. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Micah+NC · · Score: 1

      Three words for you: Raleigh, North Carolina

      bam !! :)

    68. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      You realize that puts them in the top 20 or even 10 percent? There's tons and tons of folks that can't do that, even after 20 years.

      Sorry, but they are today's version of affluent.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    69. Re:Housing is unaffordable by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      adjective. having an abundance of wealth, property, or other material goods; prosperous; rich

      There's a huge difference between affluent and the top 10/20%. I'm in the top ten and nowhere close to affluent. Stop misusing the word.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    70. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      You can be affluent and live pay check to pay check. You still have an abundance of property or other material goods. Note the definition - it's not "and". You don't have to be Gates or Buffet to be affluent.

      Now, if you wanted to say financially independent or wealthy and being better than financially independent, I think that's a different word.

      I personally am somewhere live somewhere between the "ok" to "well-off" category. Not affluent, but only because I like to know I'm not living off of SS when I turn 70 because I burned through everything prior to then. I guarantee you both our financial situations put us in the affluent category by many other's definitions based off what I've seen of your postings to date.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    71. Re:Housing is unaffordable by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Raleigh is considered "Coastal", because it's a coastal state.

      I know, it's pretty arbitrary.

    72. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Be that as it may, how is it relevant or contrary to anything I said?

      We're talking about the period from 2014-2018, during which time there wasn't a housing crash. And even if there had been a crash sufficient to push a loan upside down, that owner's equity wouldn't have disappeared: it would have simply gone negative, much to their chagrin.

      If you own something, you have equity in it. That doesn't magically become false if the thing loses value in a crash, even if the value of the equity you possess may change dramatically.

    73. Re:Housing is unaffordable by irrational_design · · Score: 1

      This. We would love to move, but our monthly mortgage is $1500. It would be at least double that if we were to move.

    74. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sucks to face reality, doesn't it?

    75. Re:Housing is unaffordable by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      If people move, they usually move from places with bad job market and cheap houses to better job market and more expensive houses, so selling the house in Oklahoma won't do much for your house buying potential in California.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    76. Re:Housing is unaffordable by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      I mean, I'm shocked that so many younger people have been and continue to live off their parents past age of 30. What's with that?

      It's in line with tendencies that has been there for a long time

      - from less specialized work to more specialized work require more years of training
      - we need work force less and less with increasing productivity: less and less percentage of people can produce enough goods to fulfill needs of the rest of humanity (that includes automation), so young people are unemployed more and more, unless (see above).

      It's only natural that young will live longer with their parents.

      live poor until you can make it, that's what the rest of us have done for modern history till now.

      Young have much better chances of survival and growth if they spend that time educating themselves to get a better job later, than facing necessity of working full time to make a living while spending remaining time studying.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    77. Re:Housing is unaffordable by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      I have seen several people caught in the space of 6 weeks, move across country and then find they had no job afterall. I

      This sounds preventable by improving legislation.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    78. Re:Housing is unaffordable by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Usually people move when they get significant bump in the salary, at least 10%

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    79. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Micah+NC · · Score: 1

      Yes, but cost of living and other prices are not "coastal".

      So you get the best of everything.

    80. Re:Housing is unaffordable by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but cost of living and other prices are not "coastal".

      COL is quite a bit higher than most of the interior of the country.

    81. Re:Housing is unaffordable by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      If all you think exists in the country are coastal cities and middle-of-nowhere Nebraska, you're speaking from a place of deep ignorance

      If you are unable to understand the concept of "an example", you are speaking from a place of deep ignorance.

      You are wrong about the job situation. Very, very wrong.

      Ok, show me the rural location with 1000 IT jobs posted today. And there will be another 1000 posts tomorrow....and the next....and the next....and the next....

    82. Re:Housing is unaffordable by DethLok · · Score: 1

      Sorry, what?

      The median price is $626k.

      https://www.livingin-australia...

      Note how old that data is, and prices have FALLEN since then as the bubble is collapsing.

      The million dollar houses are in Sydney and Melbourne, but Brisbane, Hobart, Darwin, Adelaide and Perth are much cheaper.

      Sure, most of the population is in Sydney or Melbourne, but your median (sorry, you did say average, ie mean, but...) price is NOT $1 million Australian dollars, certainly not US$1 million!

    83. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      I didn't literal mean 'the average' (or median) home is a million bucks. As you said, the actual average is less than that. I said that a typical, average home (as in, an unexceptional looking home that's not huge, not fancy, etc.) was pushing million bucks, and you could pick up similar homes in the US for a couple of hundred thousand. I was using the word 'average' in the colloquial, rather than mathematical/statistical sense.

      Or to put it another way, I was saying that homes that would cost a couple of hundred grand in the US would be approaching a million in Australia if you tried to buy something equivalent. I know because I've bought in both countries.

      My home market is Canberra and there has been no bubble burst there so far (indeed, prices have continued to modestly increase in the last quarter, even as Sydney and Melbourne have fallen). $626k in Canberra would buy you a fairly ratty old dogbox in dire need of renovation (or, a pretty nice apartment). For a stand-alone house with a yard in decent condition (comparable to a typical American house you could get for $200k in much of the country), it would indeed be close to a million bucks. My Canberra place is a small 3 bed, 1 bath place built in the 1960s, on 690 square metres, nothing exceptional at all, and is valued at approx $930k AUD, to give an example. Whereas my US place in a similar sized city is easily twice the size, with a bigger yard, and only a touch more than half the price, after currency conversion.

    84. Re:Housing is unaffordable by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      What on earth are you talking about. Australia isn't Europe. The overall tax burden in Australia is roughly the same as the US (and I actually pay a little MORE tax in the US, on the same income, than I did in Australia, though the difference isn't massive).

    85. Re:Housing is unaffordable by DethLok · · Score: 1

      Ah, understood, thank you.

      I'm on the other side of the country, we've had people selling that kind of house in Sydney, moving west and buying a nice house in a nice suburb, with a new car and new furniture and wondering what to do with the lefover cash.

  2. Moving? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    If I left NYC, I'd likely leave the US. Most parts of the US are basically unlivable without having to own a car.

    1. Re: Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Portland and Seattle you ride a bike or walk and you can do it without stepping over trash or the smell of urine everywhere

    2. Re: Moving? by greenwow · · Score: 1

      You forgot to mention SF with poop on the sidewalks.

    3. Re: Moving? by atrex · · Score: 1

      Assuming you can snag a job that lets you afford to live in either place.

    4. Re: Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Portland and Seattle you ride a bike or walk and you can do it without stepping over trash or the smell of urine everywhere"

      So the constant rain washes the urine away.

    5. Re: Moving? by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "SF with poop on the sidewalks."

      As a adherent of coprophilia I love Poop Science Fiction.

      "Before Eden" by Arthur C. Clarke

    6. Re:Moving? by Ogive17 · · Score: 0

      Even my small town of 30k people has a taxi service. It requires a call-ahead but it's actually quite cheap and partially funded by the county. It requires a little bit of planning ahead and patience, though.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    7. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't want a car, I don't want to *not* have a car.
      Buy one, try some freedom.
      The secret is to get at least 40 miles outside of any major metro.

    8. Re: Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not the poop though, you need a power washer for that: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/judges-complain-its-unsafe-unsanitary-outside-county-courthouse-in-seattle/

      Of course, one city councilman deemed such an act racist, evocative of police turning fire hoses on civil rights protestors.

    9. Re: Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      no car needed in midtown Atlanta - the new development near Georgia Tech now and over the next few years will make it even better

    10. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention the people. Flyover country is an apt name for large swaths of the US.

    11. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for signalling your virtue. We are all now so relieved to know that you are above using a car or taxi. I know, I for one was up nights stressing over whether b0s0z0ku was willing to purchase and use a car. Now that I know that you are following the correct thinking, I am much better now.

    12. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is very "free" about sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic versus taking a subway and skipping the hassle? Maybe you should try going to a city outside of the boonies for a change? When I went to London last year, I had plenty of freedom because buses came by frquently and you could reach a subway station within minutes to go even longer distances quickly. It was far more freeing than sitting in traffic on an intracity freeway.

    13. Re: Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a car. The sheer cost and maintenance isn't freedom. You seem to have your concepts confused.

    14. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you disabled and unable to drive (in which case I feel for you) or are you just lazy and don't want to (in which case, too bad)?

      I bet it's the latter, but I suppose it could be the former. If it's the former, most medium sized cities have programs for you that will basically solve your problem. And if it's the latter, get a license, it's not hard, and cars are dirt cheap if you learn to do the work yourself.

    15. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can do both. I have a pass for the metro AND a car. I get to enjoy my city AND I get to go visit family in another province any time I please. And if the metro in my city breaks down, I'm the one at work earning my wages unlike the others who are losing a day of holiday or getting chewed out by the boss in another city for not having backup plans.

      As for sitting in traffic, sometimes I'd rather be doing that than standing in a bus with sore feet for 30 minutes, or standing in a packed metro car for an hour watching people pissed off at every station who can't pack in because we're full.

      But whatever floats your boat. I'll enjoy watching your face slide by as the doors open, nobody gets out, and you can't fit in. :P

    16. Re: Moving? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Then you bought the wrong car.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    17. Re:Moving? by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      40 miles outside of a major metro, as specified by parent, is not going to have bumper-to-bumper traffic. That's not to say that a car-centric lifestyle is for everyone, but it does give you a great deal of flexibility.

    18. Re:Moving? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If I left NYC, I'd likely leave the US. Most parts of the US are basically unlivable without having to own a car.

      Well, welcome to America my friend.

      That is the norm, and it seems to work well for the VAST majority of the country.

      But please, do stay in NYC. Please don't come elsewhere in the states and start voting to make them the hell holes I'd perceive living in NYC would be like, with onerous taxation, lots of regulation and pretty much voting to elect politicians that wipe their ass with the 2nd amendment and others.

      Please, if you like the live in NYC, stay there and keep voting that type of life up there.

      Please don't come to where we enjoy more freedoms and more open spaces and try to change it for the worse.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    19. Re: Moving? by shaksys · · Score: 1

      I walked to work for the first time today and there is plenty of homeless people pooping and pissing on the street in reno too.

    20. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never driven on I-35 in Texas between Austin and Dallas have you? It's backed up full of traffic all the time.

    21. Re:Moving? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      People who can afford bumper-to-bumper traffic can afford a nice place to live.
      Afford the extra transport costs everyday? That shows a better wage that can pay for a nice home in a safe, clean area.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    22. Re: Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boulder Colorado, seriously.

    23. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FTFY

      "Most parts of the US are basically unliveable"

    24. Re:Moving? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      It's nice not to need a car (I was in that position a decade ago). But why are you so opposed to owning one? To the point where you'd leave the country to avoid owning one? Much of the USA is a pretty awesome place (the parts I visited anyway), so get a car and move.

      If you come to Europe, you will probably find that unless you live in the center of one of the larger cities - where most people couldn't afford a decent place to live - you still need a car. You will also find that car ownership is 2-3 times as expensive as it is in the US.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    25. Re:Moving? by jeff4747 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is the norm, and it seems to work well for the VAST majority of the country.

      No, it is tolerated by the VAST majority of the country.

    26. Re: Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You either pay for maintenance or depreciation. Freedom isn't free lol.

    27. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yay I love run of the mill propaganda. Stick it to those fake Americans and continue engaging in identity politics!

    28. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. Works well for. Your turn.

    29. Re: Moving? by rfengr · · Score: 1

      The cheapest house in Boulder is ~$1M.

    30. Re:Moving? by ArylAkamov · · Score: 1

      Seconded. The number of transplants I've met who complained about the policies and taxes they fled from, only to vote for the same shit in my state is mind boggling. Bring it up to them and they either get a lifeless look in their eyes or they change the topic agressively to bitch about what they assume your politics are, trying to deflect criticism.

    31. Re:Moving? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      I can afford a decent place to live in any number of Eastern/Central European cities, in a part of a city where I can walk everywhere I need to.

    32. Re:Moving? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I like living where I can walk or take transit 99% of the time. I don't like to be stuck in a God damn car aka a sensory deprivation bubble. There's no serendipity in car-dependent places.

    33. Re: Moving? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      No rail network in Hot-lainta as extensive as Metro-North, LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT ... you can get a lot of places within 100 miles of NYC via public transit. Good luck in Atlanta. Even MARTA sucks, only running every 20 minutes off peak.

    34. Re:Moving? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Also, I can't stand the Puritanism and Whoratio Alger brainwashing in the US. In Czech Republic and some parts of Southern Europe, I'll get a decent level of health care for my taxes and a generally more laid-back, less Puritanical culture. Work to live, not live to work.

    35. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, you're a dumb.

    36. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like living where I can walk or take transit 99% of the time. I don't like to be stuck in a God damn car aka a sensory deprivation bubble. There's no serendipity in car-dependent places.

      And a subway train or bus isn't a deprivation bubble also?

    37. Re:Moving? by tepples · · Score: 1

      It's nice not to need a car (I was in that position a decade ago). But why are you so opposed to owning one? To the point where you'd leave the country to avoid owning one?

      Some people have a disability that prevents them from driving safely.

    38. Re: Moving? by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      New York has beautiful women. Seattle and Portland do not.

    39. Re: Moving? by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      One needn't like Democrat party politics to prefer riding the Subway over driving in rush hour traffic.

    40. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      40 miles outside my metro has bumper-to-bumper traffic, and it's worse than downtown, because downtown has a reasonable public transit modal share. In some cities, you need to be more than 70 miles away to avoid bumper-to-bumper traffic.

    41. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Even my small town of 30k people has a taxi service. It requires a call-ahead but it's actually quite cheap and partially funded by the county. It requires a little bit of planning ahead and patience, though.

      You have clearly never lived in a "real" city if you think the availability of call ahead taxi is a realistic option. If you live in a real/walkable city, you can go for a walk and decide what to do on they way. There WILL be a bookstore, a movie theater, a keycutter, dry cleaner and a decent a pizza/sushi/burger shop whichever direction you pick. If you need to decide what you want to do before you pick the direction you start walking... that's not a really a city in terms of NYC, London, Sydney, etc. much less the mega cities of Asia (if you can speak the language anyway).

      Yes it is absolutely an "elitist" viewpoint, but that doesn't make it untrue. Elitist in the same way that someone who has been shot through the gut knows the difference between that and what someone who has been punched in the gut thinks being shot would feel like.

    42. Re:Moving? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I want to go for a walk in the countryside. Tell me, how do your 'real' cities stand up to that simple expectation?

    43. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me's thinks with how you talk about "puritanism" that you're one of those small town new yorkers. It's odd really, but I've met so many of them. You'd think growing up in such a large city, they'd be worldly, but no. They all think they are, but are completely clueless as to what the world is like outside of their little part of the world.

      Cue the "I've traveled all over the place blahblahblah" defense when in fact he's never been to any of the places he's criticizing.

    44. Re: Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can get a house for about 600K in Boulder. Of course it was built in the 1950s, has newspaper for insulation, single pane windows where the blinds move and the power flickers every time the wind blows (which is constantly for about 6 months of the year) and the sewer lines are tied to the storm drains so every time you get a heavy rain sewage backs up in to your basement.

      Yes, I just described the place I lived in when I lived in Boulder. I'm not sure if the 600K is right though, It was worth 430K about 10 years ago though when I was renting it. It was a shit hole. Also, Boulder is full of a lot of self important assholes. Moved near Boulder since I worked there at the time. Much cheaper, much nicer, people are more friendly. Boulder is a shit hole. The only thing I'll give is it really is faster to bike anywhere than try to drive. Mostly because I'm moderately certain Boulder actively sabotages the roads.

    45. Re: Moving? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      One needn't like Democrat party politics to prefer riding the Subway over driving in rush hour traffic.

      Well, if you like riding the subway so much, stay in the few cities that have them, or need them.

      And most cities don't have rush hour traffic "that" bad....not like you have in LA and the like, the rest of the country is not that bad, nor do you commute that far in most of the US for most jobs.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    46. Re:Moving? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      "tolerated"??? Bullshit, nothing stopping those that want it from moving there.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    47. Re:Moving? by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Bullshit, nothing stopping those that want it from moving there.

      There's a ton of things stopping those that want effective mass transit from moving to New York City. Because there's more than effective mass transit involved in such a decision.

      If you want to see just how much people want effective mass transit, look at how they vote to spend money. In every car-and-suburbia dominated city I have lived in, bonds measures to boost mass transit pass. Frequently by 60/40 or more.

      If people actually thought being dependent on their cars was so wonderful, they wouldn't pay for mass transit improvements. Especially since those improvements are extremely unlikely to help themselves personally - car-and-suburbia dominated cities are too spread out for easy mass transit development.

    48. Re:Moving? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      "tolerated"??? Bullshit, nothing stopping those that want it from moving there.

      House prices for the few places in the US with good transit are through the roof. There's a massive shortage of ToD in the US. The fact that, despite higher building costs, a three bedroom home with a large yard in the suburbs costs $200K, while a two bedroom apartment in a city costs 5-10x that should tell you both that you're wrong about there being "nothing stopping those who want it from moving there" and that the vast majority of people completely reject the accidentophile cartopia the elites have foisted on most of the country.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    49. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For sure. Red staters are moving to more liberal cities in droves, and it almost feels like a concerted effort to make our cities as poor as their entire states are. Who do they think will continue to subsidize them if they ruin the cities?

    50. Re:Moving? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      And a subway train isn't a deprivation bubble also?

      Oh, if only. Grew up in a major metro area, and would have loved to be deprived of the noise and scents on the subway.

    51. Re:Moving? by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      Did you even read the GP's post? It was about the need to own a car just about everywhere outside NYC. It was nothing about the dining options or the entertainment.

      I get it. There isn't as much to do where I live. We don't just get in the car and drive around and think about where should we stop for dinner. With the limited options, we know before we leave. So in that case, calling a taxi 30 minutes before is not a big issue.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    52. Re:Moving? by imrahilj · · Score: 1

      I haven't been in a lot of cities, but Berlin has great parks, Tokyo and Kyoto do as well, and Central Park in NYC isn't terrible.

    53. Re:Moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you even read the GP's post?
      I get it. There isn't as much to do where I live.
      With the limited options, we know before we leave.

      Thanks for making my point for me.

  3. Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've moved over 30 times and lived in 9 countries now, but I still remember being 22 living in the middle of nowhere in the US and most people act like moving to another state is like the end of the world.

    Considering that America was founded by people who risked their entire future going to an unsettled country, it's a shame we've come to this now.

    1. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BS. America was founded by the discarded criminals and rejects (bat shit insane puritans, etc) of Europe. Instead of feeding people in prison for many years, it was cheaper in the long run to just ship them off to a new continent and make them someone else's problem.

    2. Re:Inability to take big risks by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Considering that America was founded by people who risked their entire future going to an unsettled country, it's a shame we've come to this now.

      Yes what a shame it is that we have progressed to stable lifestyles. I would feel more whole if I said goodbye to my family for months to go work in a gold mine.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Packing up all my shit 30 times and moving it around, unpacking it, and getting everything fixed the way I like it just in time to do it again sounds like a pain in the ass.

    4. Re:Inability to take big risks by fluffernutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I doubt a person who moves 30 times has very many belongings that they are attached to.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    5. Re:Inability to take big risks by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      I've never left the country, but I have also moved 30+ times. I'm tired.

      Also, it just gets harder the older you get. Not just age, but more stuff, and after kids ... jeez, it's a lot.

    6. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't know what you're talking about. Puritans were no more insane than the Catholic vs. Protestant gangland wars, and calling them criminals is just ignorant of reality. Many were landless servants. Work on it, Ivan.

    7. Re:Inability to take big risks by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      The key here is "unsettled". I can't just drive to Seattle and grab a lot of unused land for free.

    8. Re:Inability to take big risks by youngone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have only lived in three different countries. Every time I moved I learned something about myself and the world around me.
      It amazes me how timid and frightened of change many Americans seem to be.

    9. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know - moving when you're young is fun, meeting new people / cultures is great, but eventually you realise that people are more or less the same most places (give or take language and food) and moving itself is expensive and unpleasant.

      Maybe you're different but in the end I just realised that (a) I liked where I was and had (b) the pain and expense of packing, looking for a new home, finding a new job and friends etc outweighed any desire for new surroundings.

    10. Re:Inability to take big risks by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You're confusing the terms "found" and "founded". America was "found' by discarded criminals and rejects, but it was "founded" by entrepreneurs and libertarians. Most of the founding fathers were Deists, not Puritans. Deists believe they have control over their own destiny.

    11. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that America was founded by people who risked their entire future going to an unsettled country...

      Most often because they had to, not because they wanted to. If you're being persecuted or suck in a life of poverty with no prospects then moving is going to look pretty attractive, even when you factor in the pain of leaving friends/family/homeland.

    12. Re:Inability to take big risks by supremebob · · Score: 1

      I think that the big problem is that is now costs a small fortune to move in the US if you have to buy and sell a home. Once the realtors, lawyers, state and local governments, mortgage company, and moving company all get their cut, you can easily be out of pocket over $20,000 if you're moving out of state.

      That wouldn't be bad if companies still offered moving bonuses or relocation assistance, but most do not.

    13. Re:Inability to take big risks by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      You would feel whole or not, the mine owners would feel whole. Especially if they can pay you in company scrip good only at the company store..

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    14. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Deists believe they can't commune with God, that God is not concerned with mankind that much, and THEISTS believe they can talk to God. That's the definition.

    15. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      but it was "founded" by entrepreneurs and libertarians.

      BS. This is just historical revisionism. This is as much bullshit as how the modern Republican party tries to claim Lincoln would be on their side when they're the party that all the segregationist Dixiecrats (who share no ideals with Lincoln) moved to after LBJ signed the civil rights acts. Sorry, but the modern Libertarian trying to claim Jefferson as one of their own is insane. The only thing shared between him and a someone who ran libertarian like Ron Paul is their racism.

    16. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean.. how ... the average person today is..a.....(gasp) snowflake?

    17. Re:Inability to take big risks by geek · · Score: 1, Informative

      I have only lived in three different countries. Every time I moved I learned something about myself and the world around me.

      It amazes me how timid and frightened of change many Americans seem to be.

      Timid and frightened of change because we don't want to move to another country? I've lived in 5 different states for various reasons. Never once have I considered the downgrade of moving to another country, and yes it is very much a downgrade to move virtually anywhere else in the world. That's not not timid or frightened, it's me not giving a flying fuck about your country because you have nothing I want.

    18. Re:Inability to take big risks by youngone · · Score: 2

      Or not knowing anything about my country, because why would you?
      Ignorance is bliss.

    19. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moving from one state to another in the US is much the same as country to country in EU. Accent can sound like an entirely different language, what's considered acceptable in one vs the other, many things. Even mileage. We have many states larger than many EU countries.

      And yet, we move around all the time.

    20. Re: Inability to take big risks by illiac_1962 · · Score: 1

      Its still like that. Suggesting that someone move fifty miles to a much better life garners a look as though you just advocated cannibalism.

    21. Re:Inability to take big risks by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      The numbers say that most likely you are from a south east asian country. They are all shit-holes in comparison. Even the best of them.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    22. Re: Inability to take big risks by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Get off my lawn!

    23. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guarantee you can't find a single quality of life index that has the U.S. at the top.

    24. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > it's me not giving a flying fuck about your country because you have nothing I want.

      Feeling's mutual buddy

    25. Re:Inability to take big risks by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      You got me thinking I'm not far behind you. I lived in (in order) Michigan, Mississippi (tech school in the AF), Nebraska, Germany, Michigan (again), Virginia, California, Germany, Maryland, Korea, Germany, Korea (2 places), Maryland, California, Korea (2 places), Virginia (for the last ~24 years...3 places). ~20 moves if I'm not miscounting. In all that time, I visited ~50 countries, and all but one state (Montana, I'll get to you yet!). The experience was well worth the cost. And seeing other cultures up close helps us get over some of our bias.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    26. Re:Inability to take big risks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your reading comprehension needs help. not moving is not an indicator of stability but an indicator of stagnation.

      wise up.

    27. Re:Inability to take big risks by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Yup, it was all good until I got married (the first time), and then the kid came, and suddenly I went from having a small one bedroom apartment's worth of stuff to having three, and then a small house, and then a much bigger house when I remarried. I plan on moving two more times...one when I retire...two when I can't live without constant care...oh, and three when they toss my ashes.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    28. Re:Inability to take big risks by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      As an old white guy, American who's travelled and lived overseas extensively (see earlier post), I'd like to suggest that you're full of shit. Don't get me wrong, I love it here, but there are plenty of things in other countries that are better than what we have. Have a nice day.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    29. Re:Inability to take big risks by youngone · · Score: 1

      The numbers say that most likely you are from a south east asian country. They are all shit-holes in comparison. Even the best of them. --

      Oh yes, numbers. That's how you tell where someone is from.
      South Pacific actually. About as South Pacific as you can get.
      It's not perfect, but I wouldn't call it a shithole.

    30. Re:Inability to take big risks by unixisc · · Score: 1

      That's not the point. The point is that more often than not, moving involves moving to a more expensive place, and that too for a temporary project. Or even if it was permanent, it's for the sake of becoming another cog in the wheel of the company based in that more expensive place, expensive due to its being a major operational hub

      Since more things are getting automated, and more things can be done remotely using a phone or a computer, there's no reason why Billy Joe Blow sitting in Omaha, NE can't get a good job where he is w/o having to sell his house and relocate. That helps keep costs of employment lower for the employer, but still affordable for the employee - a win-win solution.

  4. Maybe we're satisfied with where we are? by WoodstockJeff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, a "better opportunity" may exist, but "good enough" also has its advantages.

    1. Re:Maybe we're satisfied with where we are? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your non existent wealth fetish is un-American!!

    2. Re:Maybe we're satisfied with where we are? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. During the last recession, I discovered I simply don't need to run the rat race. Having paid my house off three years after I got it by not getting more than I needed and living frugally and then later paying cash for my vehicle, I found I could live on less than $10K a year and my savings generate more than enough to cover that. Note that I'm 45 and have never made more than $80K per year or received money from other sources.

      I just recently decided to get a job again because I got bored. I'm a college grad and found it trivial to get a job making $45K per year. It has insurance and the whole income will go into the bank because I don't need it.

      I can't imagine what would drive me to move.

    3. Re:Maybe we're satisfied with where we are? by Jahta · · Score: 1

      Yes, a "better opportunity" may exist, but "good enough" also has its advantages.

      Or maybe people are just happy with the location choices they have already made, and for more than simply work-related reasons; see The Big Sort: Why the Clustering of Like-Minded America is Tearing Us Apart. Explains a lot about the polarized state of the nation.

    4. Re:Maybe we're satisfied with where we are? by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      That's all great, but then I don't want to hear complaining about low standard of living, and needing more government programs to help people who can barely get by!

  5. Well duh. by rlitman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unemployment is low, and good local job opportunities are aplenty, so the costs of moving just don't merit the benefits. But this is a lagging, rather than leading indicator of the economy.

  6. Living with parents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is almost certainly correlated with the increase in young adults living at home for longer periods of time.

    Student debt, cost of living, health insurance, and even changing values probably all play a role in this demographic trend.

  7. Simple things missed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More and more children are living at home because they have a greater struggle than their parents.

    Another interesting tidbit: employee loyalty has dropped. So i dont buy the argument that folks are moving less, just that they cannot afford to even move out of the nest

    1. Re:Simple things missed? by fluffernutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is well known that millennials make less than their parents and education costs more.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Simple things missed? by Jerrry · · Score: 1

      "More and more children are living at home because they have a greater struggle than their parents."

      What utter bunk! Children who are focused and motivated have no problems in this area. My 25-year-old son recently bought a house. In Seattle, which isn't exactly a low-cost housing market, and it did it entirely without any help from his parents.

    3. Re:Simple things missed? by geek · · Score: 0

      It is well known that millennials make less than their parents

      Yes because they are younger than their parents and haven't worked up the employment ladder. Captain fucking obvious is calling

    4. Re:Simple things missed? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      They still make less when adjusted for age.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    5. Re:Simple things missed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't bother arguing with this guy. He's an utter idiot. I'm sorry that you wasted your time both on his drivel and on reading my comment, but I felt it had to be pointed out in case you want to continue.

      All the best.

    6. Re:Simple things missed? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Children who are focused and motivated have no problems in this area.

      Even if autistic?

    7. Re:Simple things missed? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Well it's not just me with these concerns, many people in my local news are asking the same questions. Or you can just ignore the people with concerns and go on your merry way.... ask France how that works out.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    8. Re:Simple things missed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The comparison is that millenials are making less money now compared to what their parents were making when their parents were the same age as them. Captain fucking obvious was missing the point.

  8. Are people not paying attention to savings rate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Nobody has the cash on hand to quit, move, find another job, and pick up where they left off.

    If you don't have a job and a place lined up and solid, you're basically flirting with homelessness just for the chance to live someplace else. Think about that next time you hear someone say "why don't they just move to where the jobs are?"

  9. House Sale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/iC6GrTRH

  10. Two things here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First, not everything is about the economy. This seems like an actual win for quality of life in that people can stay close to their families and form communities

    Second, how has telecommuting been factored into this analysis. It could be that people are now able to mee fuller economic potentials in place

    1. Re:Two things here by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Second, how has telecommuting been factored into this analysis.

      tbh these kinds of jobs are hard to find.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Two things here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their is a basic fundamental problem with telecommuting.
      If you can do it from home, so can someone else someone else ...in another country ...with lower costs of living ...and wages which are a fraction of what you are being paid for the same work

    3. Re:Two things here by dcollins117 · · Score: 1

      If you can do it from home, so can someone else someone else ...in another country ...with lower costs of living ...and wages which are a fraction of what you are being paid for the same work

      Everyone I knows who works remotely has skills that can't be replicated. That's how you get a sweet telecommute gig.

  11. Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Moving for a job is stupid. You can make more money, so what?

    Would you really go in a place where there are no friends, no social life, and on top of that your new 10% higher paying job will be in a 15% higher tax, 300% higher living cost location, and as a free bonus will come with 10000% increase in stress level.

    People are waking up and no longer willing to run on the hamster wheel. Plus not to mention all of the locations offering high pay have issues, like big issues, that are no goes for many people. People are seeing that the attitude of try and fail and try again. rinse repeat ad infinitum does not work optimum for society. Because say 1 of 40 really succeeds and the other 39 and in the gutter if everyone is chasing the absolute top. If they stay where they are, with a slightly lower pay, 32 out of those 40 will have moderately successful lives and the 8 will be in the gutter. Which one is better?

    1. Re:Wrong by owlaf · · Score: 1

      Knowing what the current students have posted online at my alma mater, the social life aspect __seems__ to becoming a more of a concern than before.

  12. California by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Doesn't matter how much you make. California takes it away from you in Taxes and Housing cost.

  13. Moving sucks by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Moving long distance costs around $15K for a family. Not many people are in a position where they have a sure enough deal that they can move and make that much more after considering the new house price, with an assurance they won't have to pack up and move again the next year. Sure I could move to Silicon Valley and make more money but then I would have an hour commute and my mortgage would eat up most of my salary. Furthermore, I'll be back at the bottom of the totem pole again (I'm at the top now) and my job will be much less stable than it is now so I may be looking for another one again.

    This goes very much to companies not giving employees a big a piece of the pie as they used to. People need a lot of motivation to pick up and move and that's not even considering how it impacts extended family.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:Moving sucks by Tempest_2084 · · Score: 1

      No kidding. My wife is originally from California, but moved to Michigan to marry me. She's been wanting to move back for a long time now (she has an aging mother she wants to be near) but the cost of moving across country is insane, even if we get rid of everything but the essentials. Not to mention having to have a job already lined up (I'm in IT, but over 40), find affordable housing somewhere (even outside of SV it's insane), and leave something in savings in case everything goes tits up. As much we'd like to move to where we want to be, we just can't.

    2. Re:Moving sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course you can. You just can't get what you have in Michigan for the same money. There are ways, but moving into a more expensive place = sacrifice.
         

    3. Re:Moving sucks by Tempest_2084 · · Score: 1

      Oh I know that. Buying in CA is a pipe dream, but even renting a modest place is expensive without two incomes (not to mention having to have the job in place first). I was willing to go 'all in' on a move, but my wife won't take that kind of risk (perhaps she's right though, she's the more level headed of the two of us). Unfortunately saving a large enough cushion for something like this without resorting to living like broke college kids in your mid 40's is kind of tough or takes a very long time.

    4. Re:Moving sucks by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      There is a certain amount of sacrifice that is realistic, but it quickly gets stupid.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    5. Re:Moving sucks by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

      The only people I know who have moved any significant distance in the last 5 years did it to take a new job and their new employer paid for the cost of the move.

    6. Re:Moving sucks by Tempest_2084 · · Score: 1

      And unfortunately unless you have some unique or high in demand skills that isn't going to happen.

    7. Re:Moving sucks by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      No kidding. My wife is originally from California, but moved to Michigan to marry me. She's been wanting to move back for a long time now (she has an aging mother she wants to be near) but the cost of moving across country is insane, even if we get rid of everything but the essentials. Not to mention having to have a job already lined up (I'm in IT, but over 40), find affordable housing somewhere (even outside of SV it's insane), and leave something in savings in case everything goes tits up. As much we'd like to move to where we want to be, we just can't.

      You're doing it wrong - it's easier to move the mother to you than to move to the mother. The mother is retired, won't move with kids in tow, probably already got rid of all additional crap that they don't want anymore (many retired people do this) and won't need to look for a job at the destination.

      An added bonus might be that the mother will be spending her retirement nest-egg at a lower CoL place and so will have money for a much longer time than in California.

      My golden rule in life is that under no circumstances will I go unemployed just to be with someone else or to be somewhere else. Employment is my first and foremost concern; everything else comes after it.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    8. Re:Moving sucks by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      You're assuming there are no siblings that are also in California and living with the mother. Should they move too? What if they have jobs of their own and spouses with jobs?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    9. Re:Moving sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're assuming there are no siblings that are also in California and living with the mother. Should they move too? What if they have jobs of their own and spouses with jobs?

      Then they can take care of her mother.

  14. "Americans are lazy, bring in immigrants." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    That's basically what happens when any statistic is generated.

    Americans aren't moving enough? We need more visa workers!

    Americans won't work for low pay? We need more visa workers!

    Americans change jobs too frequently? We need more visa workers!

  15. Future Genealogists will thank us by DalM · · Score: 1

    Do you know how much a pain it is when your g-g-grandfather moved to a new state and you don't know where he was born.

    Geeze. For the sake of your own grandchildren. Stay put.

  16. Healthcare has us terrified by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you have semi functional healthcare that isn't going to kill you or drain your bank account in the next 6 months then your not going anywhere.

    Going to an new State & unknown healthcare system in the USA is a no no, one screw up and we loose everything.

  17. You know what's bad for the economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The spider like entities who absorb cash at the top of the pyramid and don't spend it back into the system.

  18. It costs money to move, lower wages - less moves by diagonti · · Score: 1

    This seems like its a related to the observations from the article going around earlier claiming that millennials are killing businesses because they are to poor to be good consumers. Younger folk are more willing to move, but you can only move if you can afford to move.

  19. Need a support network by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thing about moving around a lot is the loss of a family support network. Raising kids is a challenge but doing so without grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins is more so. There is a non-monetary value to having a good support network.
    This also works in reverse when you become the support for older parents or siblings and their families.

    1. Re:Need a support network by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      This is Slashdot, they don't tend to recognize the family unit; or having kids for that matter.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  20. So buy a car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...and learn how to drive.

    Or does that offend your precious feels?

    1. Re:So buy a car... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I know how to drive, I just don't care to do it on an everyday basis.

    2. Re:So buy a car... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I know how to drive, I just don't care to do it on an everyday basis.

      Have you driven on a daily basis somewhere that isn't a big city?

      I live in a big city and don't own a car. I have no desire to own a car and am glad I can not drive round here on a daily basis. I did also live somewhere where car ownership is very common, but the roads were wide and empty and the other drivers were pretty chilled (NM). It was a quite different experience and not nearly as bad as I thought.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:So buy a car... by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Clearly, leaving the country is the better option...sheesh.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    4. Re:So buy a car... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I don't LIKE many aspects of the USA to begin with. I like public health insurance and having to pay a predictable % of my income for medical care. I don't like the in-your-face religiosity of many parts of the country. I don't like the whole idea that government help and taxes are bad, because you have an 0.0001% chance of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and becoming the next Horatio Alger tale. I don't like the crappy public transit. I like trains, kind of like a little kid. I don't like the small talk, the fake smiles, the fact that "good" is always the proper answer to "how are you?" I don't like the Puritanism and shaming of the human body.

    5. Re:So buy a car... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Can't speak for the OP, but I lived in a city and didn't drive. I now live in the (American) suburbs and drive. I HATE IT. It's an hour and a half of tedium every fucking day. It's not even as if there are "interesting days", if there's something new it's normally in the form of traffic being backed up for a mile or five because of anything from road works to an accident.

      If there was a train stop within five miles, I'd take the train in, at least I'd be able to read or play games or just nap.

      People here get very upset whenever I suggest that it might be a nice thing if cities weren't effectively banned in the US (they are, most states have draconian zoning laws that prevent high density development) and people might be given the option of living in places where public transport was a viable concept, but those people are the minority that think that staring at two white lines for hours a day, preventing yourself from being killed, is a normal thing to want to do. I get it, you like your penismobile and it's a great penis substitute for you. Stop fucking up the rest of the country because you want car driving to be mandatory so that nobody makes comments about BCSDs in reference to you.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    6. Re:So buy a car... by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Great then don't let the door hit ya. Have a nice day.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    7. Re:So buy a car... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Ok fair point. I didn't live in the suburbs, I lived in a small town bracketed by government land and reservations so it couldn't grow. I lived in the town and it was maybe 15 minutes to work by car of traffic was really really heavy. I usually biked or since my SO had further to go.

      The driving was fine. A jaunt to the supermarket was easy. Even the 40 minutes drive to Santa Fe was fine. The suburbs sound awful. No low riders for a start.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    8. Re:So buy a car... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I wasn't completely disagreeing with you, but emphasizing that just because driving in the suburbs isn't as horrifying as in a city, it doesn't change the fact that as a lifestyle it's absolutely terrible.

      American zoning has turned the country into a collection of souless AnytownUSA places (essentially clusters of strip malls - a group of stores that share a parking lot - surrounding, if you're lucky, a city hall and court house, with suburbs built in one square mile blocks interleaving the strip malls), with employers usually 30 to 60 minutes away for most people, and no way to get anywhere except driving. The results include that the cost of living is ridiculously high and the destruction of most opportunities for socialization outside of employment, or maybe parents meeting other parents at school functions.

      I'm baffled it's just accepted here. Indeed, every American except one that I've met that's been to Europe (including the UK) has come back shocked, marveling at how much more pleasant and less stressful life is in the cities, particularly excited by the buses and trains and lack of need to use a car, wishing we had it over here. (The one exception was also impressed but didn't want it here because he's a car fanatic.) Unfortunately, we can't, because we can't have nice things.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  21. "only" by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    , only 10.1% of adults moved homes from August 2017 to August 2018

    Only 10% of adults moved within one year???

    Is it only me to whom that sounds too high, not low?

    1. Re:"only" by unimacs · · Score: 2

      The 10% figure includes people that simply moved into a different home within the same area. The number of people who moved to a different state is less than 2%.

    2. Re:"only" by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      Not really. It suggests that people move, on average, once every ten years, which doesn't seem that crazy. Bear in mind that young folks usually rent, and tend to job hop a lot, which means they have the opportunity to move closer to their next job as soon as their previous lease is up.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:"only" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In France it looks like it's roughly 5% (20% over 4 years)

    4. Re:"only" by Vermonter · · Score: 2

      I agree it seems a bit high, but when you consider how many people rent and chose not to renew their annual lease and moved to a different apartment across town, the number may not be so high.

    5. Re:"only" by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      That means the average adult can expect to move once every 10 years (which is a bad way to look at it because the odds drop as you age), or perhaps more like the average adult can now expect to move about 5 times in their adult lifetime. That doesn't seem all that high to me, but I guess YYMV.

  22. Between custody agreements and two-earner families by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...moving between different states or even metro areas is very difficult. This is compounded by excessive professional licensing. For example, I am an accountant and my wife is a teacher. I could get a very good job in New York state, but, since my wife does not have a masters degree, she could not. So, to move to NYC, I'd need to find a job that overcomes the cost of living difference between NYC and Texas AND overcomes the loss of her income. Plus I would be forced back into family court to hash out a new custody arrangement with my ex-wife. In other words, until my child is an adult and my wife obtains a masters degree (and I am admitted to the bar or board of NYS), I can't move there for anything less than a dream job.

  23. Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time I have moved, it cost me roughly $10K. I no longer have $10K to move. Ergo, I don't move.

  24. No shit, why did you think they were so fat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    -1 Troll mods incoming .....

    1. Re:No shit, why did you think they were so fat? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      I legitimately thought from the headline that this was about exercise.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  25. Moving costs by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    At one time companies would pay moving costs, help you settle in to your new home, etc. These days they have the attitude that people should come to them. They don't really lift a finger to try to attract more people than (whatever they offer) at (wherever they are).

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:Moving costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. My current job wouldn't offer me any help moving, but it was a good opportunity and a fantastic climate (the tropics.) So I sold off 80% of my belongings, left a few boxes of things at my parents', and moved 5000 miles with only two bags to my name. Happy I did it, but definitely not easy nor stress-free. (Much easier that I have no family, but also not footloose and fancy free like my 20s or even early 30s.)

  26. This. by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I moved because I got a huge raise, but it increase my monthly housing costs by well over 50% (small town where I could afford a house to a big city where I couldn't). Now, I more than doubled my pay, so it was economical even with being stuck in an apartment. But I'm no fool, I know I'm not building any wealth, it's just that the jobs in the small town I was in were busy being outsourced and I didn't have a lot of choices.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:This. by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Even if you were paying the same percentage of your salary for everything, you'd also be saving double as well. It's great if you have positive savings, and horrible if you have negative savings.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    2. Re:This. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is the shift from ownership to renting. The 100% boost to his savings might not be more than the equity he was gaining as an owner.

    3. Re:This. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It is almost guaranteed to be more, because ownership has a lot of expenses. Landlords of most residential dwellings do not make very much profit from the rental; it mostly pays maintenance and taxes to preserve the investment for when you sell the property. Renting an apartment, you can rent less property than you would have to buy to buy a house; and buying a condo includes so much rent it isn't an investment at all in most cases. So by living in an apartment and saving more money, you're financially ahead of buying and then selling when the job ends.

      The big advantages of home ownership are control of your personal territory, and an investment that eventually gives you housing security. When you don't know how long you'll live in a city, having control of your territory is worth less because there is less incentive to make expensive personalizations, and if you're going to move when the job ends then you wouldn't expect to want to live in it for housing security; savings would have more value.

    4. Re:This. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      I think a lot of tenants don't realize this. Just my own anecdote here...

      I bought my first place, a townhouse in 1985. A week after I closed on the sale, my company asked me to go work overseas. The experience, and money would be good, so I accepted, and put my new place up for rent....reselling would have cost me thousands just in the transactions, and the whole place was only about $95k in value. I had to hire a property management company (Long & Foster) since I didn't have anyone I trusted living anywhere close. Many tenants and seven years later, I returned to move back in, and found that I was going to have to put thousands into it just to fix up all the shit the tenants ruined. The rent was just about up to the level of the mortgage payments...property values and rents had taken a dive in the late 80s. So, I didn't really make any money on the place, even with the tax write offs. And, I ended up selling about a year later (just before going overseas again) for ~$125k, but much of that "profit" when to pay the real estate costs. Mostly what I got out of it all was a learning experience...I never want to be a landlord again.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  27. bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thatâ(TM)s bullshit, moving is expensive, restanlishing s household in a new location is expensive. I have many things that wouldnâ(TM)t be worth moving and have to sell off reacquire. Being jerked all over the country like a dog on a leash keeps people stuck on the hampster wheel.

  28. Moving is expensive... by atrex · · Score: 1

    Moving for a new job is an expensive proposition. Will someone benefit in the long run? Possibly, maybe even probably. But when most Americans can't even afford a $400 emergency they're not going to be able to afford moving to a different part of the country unless the new employer picks up the entire tab.

  29. it is extremely good for economic growth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who claimed that ? Do they have any proof of it ?

    Home movers ?

  30. Reasons by hackertourist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    1. Unaffordability of housing.
    2. Both partners working. It's one thing to have one partner start a new job. Moving long-distance means the other partner has to find a new job as well.
    3. Most jobs don't come with a long-term contract. It's hard to justify a long-distance move when you may be out of a job after 1 year.

    All of these conspire to create a situation where everybody accepts the commute from Hell rather than moving closer to where they work.

    1. Re:Reasons by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      3... Good point. Contracts seem to be more and more common. I would never move for a contract.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Reasons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4. A lot of employers are allowing people to work from home. I don't know how much this affects the numbers, but I bet it's a non-trivial percentage.

    3. Re:Reasons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3. Most jobs don't come with a long-term contract. It's hard to justify a long-distance move when you may be out of a job after 1 year.

      This paranoia is a big one. I could afford a condo, but I'm afraid we'd hit a downturn and I get laid off right after closing, even though I know my boss is working on getting me ready for a higher level in the company. Being a millenial and having graduated straight into the teeth of the Great Recession-and the associated real estate crash-doesn't help. The image of real estate as the great investment was badly tarnished with the popping of the bubble.

  31. International moving is very difficult by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    Professionals in America - particularly if they are US citizens - are often at a competitive disadvantage in trying to leave the US for a job in another country. Other countries often prioritize for their own citizens, asking their employers to provide documentation on why it is warranted to hire an American. Then on top of that are the costs of actually moving, along with getting the required documents for the move to happen. I have applied to several jobs in Canada - which should be a pretty trivial move - and the employer usually gives up rather than deal with the burden of hiring an American (even though I could drive there, I already have a passport, and I score very high on the immigration tests there).

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:International moving is very difficult by Cimexus · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is true ... but it's also true of the US itself. I've applied for (and been granted) professional work visas for both Canada and the US over the last decade and the process was similar in both, in that you had to prove there was no local person who had the necessary knowledge or background to do the work. You also have to prove you wouldn't be being paid substantially differently than the local for the same work.

      The US is no different in this regard (at least for the L1 type visas typical for professional work). It's always a pain hiring a foreigner in any country because the company takes on the burden of sponsoring them, processing all the immigration paperwork etc.

    2. Re:International moving is very difficult by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      often at a competitive disadvantage in trying to leave the US for a job in another country

      Because you can't actually leave. US government acts like you still belong to them (I thought Lincoln freed the slaves) and keep squeezing foreign banks and employers for financial and other data. Nobody wants a bunch of US spooks rummaging through their proprietary information, so forget hiring them.

      This applies to 'US persons' which include resident immigrants. So you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.

    3. Re:International moving is very difficult by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taxes for an American working abroad are also something of a nightmare, because the USA demands that you pay taxes, no matter where in the world you work. (That's INSANE.)

      Yes, you get to deduct the amount that you paid to the foreign sovereign -- and that's often more than your US tax burden in Europe -- but Jesus, no matter what, you end up doing two sets of taxes.

  32. I disagree with this premise! by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    People were doing a lot of moving when the economy went sour, but that was just the reaction to being unable to stay gainfully employed at the pay-rate you expected to receive.

    I knew people working in construction, for example, who had to move wherever the job opportunities were -- because all of a sudden, they found themselves unable to find steady work doing home repairs or renovations. The fact they lived in a big city, full of homes, suddenly stopped guaranteeing jobs for them. They had to resort to "storm chasing", moving wherever a natural disaster happened, to be sure they were kept busy.

    Even in I.T., I had to move our family from the midwest in order to advance my career. My home town just didn't have enough good-paying corporate I.T. jobs in it. Several large businesses shut down or restructured. leaving a lot of I.T. people out of work and creating more competition for the jobs that remained. And the smaller places were struggling to stay profitable, so couldn't give pay raises.

    When the economy improved, it put a stop to the need to pack up and move around. IMO, that's a good thing. People shouldn't even be buying homes with 30 year mortgages when they're expecting they'll have to resell them and move within only a few years. A home is meant to be a long-term investment. Why wouldn't everybody rent if there was no expectation of staying put in one place for the long haul?

  33. Work/life balance by unimacs · · Score: 1

    Work/life balance factors more into big decisions that Americans make than it did a generation or two ago. Pulling up roots for a different job is something they're are less likely to do.

    I don't see this as a bad thing. It's probably better that people become more invested in their current communities.

  34. Cost oif moving by KitFox · · Score: 2

    Maybe it's a matter of moving being good for the economy because it pumps so much money into moving expenses too?

    In a house, there's the costs of bringing everything up to par to sell, the closing costs for a new mortgage (on both sides), the cost of moving services, inspections, fees, and tons of other one-time costs. Additionally, lenders get interest on the appreciated value of both locations rather than on the prior value.

    For the massive number of people in apartments and other rentals, there's move out fees (usually cleaning and such regardless of how clean the place is left), move-in fees, deposits, etc. Again the cost of moving services (unless you're doing the Pickup Special).

    As another commenter pointed out, moving is really expensive (They quoted $15,000 average for a family). It's also disruptive and stressful and has other costs involved aside from pure monetary costs, such as learning a new area. Fewer people have that much in savings, and fewer people have faith in continuing to have their job in a year or two, making the risk of the move not worth the value.

    --

    @Whee

    1. Re:Cost oif moving by ErichTheRed · · Score: 1

      $15K to move your stuff...don't forget 3-6% of the purchase price of the house, the cost to get a new mortgage, the lawyers' fees, any real estate transfer tax you may need to pay.

      Even if you own your house free and clear, the transaction costs are in the thousands. Most people roll it into their mortgage and pretend they're not paying it, but they are. Doing this over and over again gets REALLY expensive over a lifetime.

    2. Re:Cost oif moving by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      Spending $15k to move is insane. You can re-buy all new furniture at the new location for a lot less. If you're willing to go for yard sales, you'd be able to do it in $5k.

      The most expensive thing I own is my car, which can be driven to the new place for a few hundred in gas & maintenance costs. Next are my computers, which fits in the car. Clothing and shoes fits in a large travel bag and also goes in the car. What else? Personal hygiene products? A sleeping bag and some foam padding to sleep on? A pan and a few dishes? All fit in the car.

      Everything else can be easily purchased new, or if short on cash, held off until enough money is available. The only unavoidable big expense is the deposit, but I can pay part of it with my previous rental's refund.

    3. Re:Cost oif moving by KitFox · · Score: 1

      15k is the "average", for a "family", which usually counts as like "mother, father, and 2.14 kids" or something like that. ;) The average part means that for every family that spends $500 to move, there is one that spends $29,500. Trust me, I've done the scraping by bit before, and it's mind-boggling to think of how much more expensive things can end up being for people.

      In your scenario, the cost of "everything else" that needs to be bought new would be counted as part of the cost of moving, since it is money expenditure directly caused by the move, even if it was not caused immediately. When you take into account "every expense that would not exist if you didn't move", it adds up surprisingly quickly.

      When one is at one end of the spectrum, it can be hard to comprehend how much mass is at the center and the other extreme to make the arithmetic mean what it is. There are people out there who will look at "$5k for furniture at a yard sale" and say "OMG, this guy is super-rich! With $5k at yard sales I could outfit a mansion or four. I furnish for $200."

      --

      @Whee

    4. Re:Cost oif moving by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      The average part means that for every family that spends $500 to move, there is one that spends $29,500.

      Right, though that's more a sign that averages are pointless. The more interesting number is the median. If a few Bill Gates type people move by buying all new $100 million dollar mansions, it really skews the average.

      In your scenario, the cost of "everything else" that needs to be bought new would be counted as part of the cost of moving, since it is money expenditure directly caused by the move, even if it was not caused immediately. When you take into account "every expense that would not exist if you didn't move", it adds up surprisingly quickly.

      When one is at one end of the spectrum, it can be hard to comprehend how much mass is at the center and the other extreme to make the arithmetic mean what it is. There are people out there who will look at "$5k for furniture at a yard sale" and say "OMG, this guy is super-rich! With $5k at yard sales I could outfit a mansion or four. I furnish for $200."

      I'm in the top 5-10% of the US in terms of income, but I'm looking around at my house and I see about $4k worth of furniture. Even for a family of 4, I can't see how that would add up. They aren't going to need 4 50-inch TV's, 4 dining tables, or 4 sets of couches. Things that you do need multiples of, such as beds, desks and chairs, are cheap.

    5. Re:Cost oif moving by KitFox · · Score: 1

      The intended takeaway from my post was speculating that "good for the economy" just really means "It's causing money to change hands, for example into the hands of banks, moving companies, and/or apartment management firms."

      --

      @Whee

  35. In other news, fewer windows are being broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news, fewer windows are being broken.

    Though having your window broken can be difficult emotionally, it is extremely good for economic growth.

  36. Moving is Risky by Notabadguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Moving might be good for the economy, but stability is good for people. Pensions are a word of a prior age, employer training and investment in their employees are less, relocation packages are stingier or often non-existent; loyalty is a nebulous word without meaning in corporate culture today...all of those destabilizing factors make moving and taking a new job a risky affair.

    That doesn't address homes, values, children, schools, or anything else.

    1. Re:Moving is Risky by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      These are some of the reasons why I want to bang my head on my desk every time I read about companies complaining about not being about to attract enough staff. It seems they have both been concentrating their operations in places it is expensive to live, yet not offering any real enticing packages that stand out enough, or giving any sense of stable hiring. Well of course no one is going to take a chance on them in that climate. I'm surprised anyone goes into IT any more.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Moving is Risky by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      All good points. To make matters worse, corporate culture is very homogenized. Within an industry there is less an less to differentiate one company from the next. Most mid-tier companies offer very, very similar salaries (they benchmark against each other based on job titles, rather than pay based on employee value), very similar benefits, very similar vacation, and so forth. Beige boxes were the fashion, now everyone has moved to cheaper and crappier open office BS.

      Basically jobs are a meal ticket and nothing more. You move when the jobs disappear and you have no options. Fewer and fewer companies offer decent moving packages as well. My current shop offers none as a policy, they expect you to be local or move your self for example.

      Given that loyalty is a bridge burned from both ends I understand why work has become so transactional, but the result is that people want a job near where they live, rather than wanting to live where their job is.

    3. Re:Moving is Risky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Worker mobility is a primary indicator of economic health.

      The facts don't care about your feelings, ideals.

    4. Re:Moving is Risky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. I recently had a job offer in California. I'm a very senior engineer and the job looked like it'd be more challenging then where I currently am. Problem is I'm living in a low cost city and the job was in a high cost city. The company wouldn't even meet what I was currently making to say nothing of a simple cost of living adjustment. I had to turn them down. It just wasn't worth the hassle.

  37. Why care about the economy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe it's time for business and the economy to be more flexible instead of dumping it all on the workers. Or at the very least pay more.

  38. Re:Are people not paying attention to savings rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This ^...

    Looking at moving basically half way across the US to be nearer my parents again, and to escape the soul crushing area known as Florida. Hear great things about moving to the cities near home, tons of jobs, more job offers than people able to fill them... Still worry about not having a job lined up before we start packing, still worried about finding a place to live (would prefer to buy rather than rent), oh and trying to save up for the move is a pain when my disposable income keeps shrinking.

  39. Sure, it's great for the economy by mark_reh · · Score: 1

    because it's expensive to move! And it's great for the real estate people who suck up a commission on every transaction if there's a sale of property involved.

    I moved from state to state, house to apartment, apartment to house, several times in a period of about 10 years. It was crazy.

    I used to make CAD models of furniture and the new house/apartment so I could figure out what goes where before we moved in. I also made lists of box contents and numbered the boxes so I could locate things quickly and easily (assuming I could locate a specific box!). I stopped unpacking boxes just because I didn't want to have to pack them again. I still have boxes of crap that haven't been unpacked from the last move, about 5 years ago. I'd throw it all away but my wife would surely need some specific item that's packed away in a box somewhere as soon as I did.

  40. Remote Working for information workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work all over the world, but I haven't moved houses since 1996.

    As a consultant, I'll travel to the client for 2-3 weeks at the start of a project, then return home for the rest of the work. Most projects are 6-9 months. If the client wants, I'll travel back for the "go-live" part of the project. This is usually 1 week and a nice party at the very end.

    No need to move. Chat, video conferences, and conference bridges are how huge companies have worked for 18+ yrs. Only people moving things around physically need to be in a specific location.

    One of my clients arranged for an office in one of their nearby buildings for me. It had some lab facilities setup for the project. Win-win.

    No need to move for information workers.

  41. Moving sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's many things that are "bad for the economy", but good for people in general. "The economy" is normally measured by GDP, which is largely just a measure of how fast the money goes around.

    People getting more divorces, drinking more, smoking more, and needing more health care all increase GDP, and are thus "good for the economy", but actually terrible for people in general.

    I suspect moving is in the same category.

    There's also other ways to interpret the data. People move from bad areas of an economy to good areas. If things are more evenly distributed, less moving. People also move for better schools. If schools are more even, less moving. In the 70s-90s people move because of "white flight" from cities into suburbs. If the suburbs are less attractive, less moving.

    So the article is rather silly in its one sided view of what moving means.

  42. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  43. Home ownership is the reason by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    USA has one of the highest home ownership rates in the world.

    A home is a high illiquid asset, very difficult to sell quickly. For majority of Americans home equity is the single largest component of their net worth. It is not easy to move looking for a job in a new place with that millstone tied to your neck.

    I moved half way across the world seeking better life/job/career. My daughter would not look for a job across the town. I ran the rat race, she would not. She says, "the problem in running the rat race is, even if you win you are still a rat."

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Home ownership is the reason by sgage · · Score: 1

      I believe your daughter is wise.

    2. Re:Home ownership is the reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you didn't beat her with jumper cables enough, tbh.

      Selling a home quickly is stupidly easy. Not losing a fuckton of money in costs while selling and buying repeatedly, however, is not.

      That's why we don't fucking move every three months like some kind of spastic millennial gigster economy caricature. 10.1% of adults moving in August is a catastrophically bad thing, because that number is way too fucking outrageously high.

  44. House flipping and renting. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is a symptom of everyone and their mother feeling like they are house flippers or need some rental properties. If it were up to me single family housing would be regulated to being owned by the people living there. No rich folks buying 50 homes in a city and putting them on airbnb or some other service. People from another country shouldn't be allowed to buy properties as an investment and leave them empty.

    We told people for the past 50 years that "your home is an investment." This attitude has driven home prices out of the reach of way too many people. People with enough money just bought homes low and sold them high. An 1100 sq/ft home near me would cost about $80k to $100k to build including the lot. That house goes on the market for $200k. Then 5 years later it's for sale at $250k.

    The home building/flipping tv shows don't help. They make everyone think they need a $40k+ kitchen even though they are going to eat out nearly every night. Nobody is going to use that kitchen. People are making homes to brag to their friends/family and spending 50% more than they needed on the build.

    When purchasing a home is out of reach of so many people who are working full time there is a fundamental problem. Nobody is moving because they can't afford to move. Home prices are insane and the cost of renting a home or an apartment are so high that it's impossible to save enough money to eventually buy a home. If it takes working for 30 years to save up enough for a down payment on a house what's the point? Might as well just keep renting by that point.

    It's time to take a look at capitalism and draw up some hard regulations to protect consumers that still allows businesses to profit. Everyone deserves to make money from their hard work. Someone worth $150 million buying a bunch of homes to rent out on airbnb and hiring a management agency to take care of all the properties is not doing any work. They are paying other people to work. It's time to stop letting the ultra rich benefit from the poor.

  45. Donald Trump is going to prison for TREASON by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Freedom isn't free.

    Donald Trump is going to prison for treason and his uneducated racist supporters can't do anything about it.

  46. We are incentivized to stay put by Ichijo · · Score: 1

    The mortgage interest deduction incentivizes us to purchase rather than rent. It seemed like a good idea at the time to encourage people to invest in their homes, but we now know that's a very bad idea. Not just because it harms the economy by reducing mobility, but also because it encourages people to oppose new housing in order to protect their investment by restricting supply. They do this by protecting density limits which in turn limits property tax revenue and makes the land tax-inefficient (low tax revenue, high maintenance costs). This not only causes a housing crisis, but we also wonder why our cities keep running out of money!

    The mortgage interest deduction benefits only the middle class and the wealthy, not poor people who don't itemize. One simple way to remove the incentive is to raise the standard deduction higher than most incomes. When you no longer need to collect your tax-advantaged receipts for the year, wouldn't tax time be a lot more pleasant?

    --
    Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
  47. 60-80% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    depending on how you run the numbers. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say we're not satisfied. We just don't know what to do about it.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:60-80% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      stop eating out and buying shit like a new iPhone every/other year

  48. I'd rather have stability by ErichTheRed · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Millenials get all the press, but there comes a time in people's lives where it actually makes sense to stay in one place for a while. For a lot of people, the lifestyle of moving across the country over and over again just to take another job isn't appealing. Either you're a permanent renter, or you end up spending insane amounts of money in real estate transaction costs. It's not just the house price...it's the mortgage origination fees, the legal fees, real estate commissions, transfer tax, the cost to move, etc.

    Moving all over the country made sense back in the good old days of semi-permanent employment. A company would spend a lot of time and effort on you and it was in their best interest to keep you employed. When I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, it was still very common for a company to move an employee to wherever a new promotion opportunity was, all expenses paid. Lots of kids I knew had their parents transferred. Today, IMO that makes little sense. The cost is almost always mostly paid by the employee, and there's no guarantee you'll have a job 6 months after you uproot your family and move.

    And, I know I'm going to get dinged as being old, but there's something to be said about putting down roots and becoming a part of a local community. You don't get that if you're chasing contract positions across the country and never in one place for more than a year or two. Look at military families as an example of what frequent moving around does to a kid's ability to make and maintain friendships.

    1. Re:I'd rather have stability by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's a choice. Stability, or more income. It's everyone's privilege to make this choice. But don't choose to stay put, and then complain about not making enough money, or ask Uncle Sam to help pay you not to move!

  49. I don't think we have stable lifestyles by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    like I said in another thread, 60-80% of us live paycheck to paycheck (it's a wide margin because you can run the numbers either as "has money in the bank but not enough for anything major" or "dead broke").

    Moving is a sign of upward mobility. Literally. The fact that there is less of it is an indication that upward mobility is slowing down or stopping. There are plenty of other indicators for this too (stagnant wages, an increase in low paying jobs, outsourcing of higher paying jobs, etc, etc). This is one more nail in that coffin.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:I don't think we have stable lifestyles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Completely anecdotal, but the people I know who have to move a lot are the ones living paycheck to paycheck, and the people who are financially stable don't move much at all. In fact, in most of the cases where someone I know has gained financial stability the telling sign is that they stop moving around, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

    2. Re:I don't think we have stable lifestyles by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Yeah I don't buy that moving is a sign of upward mobility. Some people move for better jobs, but some move out of necessity or a chance to get *any* job. Furthermore, a society that moves around a lot of automatically weakened because family structures and communities are being broken down.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:I don't think we have stable lifestyles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Moving is a sign of upward mobility. Literally. The fact that there is less of it is an indication that upward mobility is slowing down or stopping. There are plenty of other indicators for this too (stagnant wages, an increase in low paying jobs, outsourcing of higher paying jobs, etc, etc). This is one more nail in that coffin.

      It's worse then you think. The long term historical trend was for poor people to move to the cities (an economic trend going back centuries if not millennia). Even though the cost of living was higher, the increased opportunities made the move a net gain. But that trend has reversed, especially in California: see Lindsey/Teles - The Captured Economy. So a significant chunk of the movement that still exists now actually reflects downward mobility, far more so than in the past.

      It's going to get even worse. Taxes have gotten increasingly regressive over the years, and thanks to the incredibly unethical decision reached in South Dakota v. Wayfair this is only going to get worse. The majority of the court have blatantly violated their oaths to uphold the Bill of Rights, massively infringing the 9th Amendment right to ethical practice of law, by making businesses subject to the laws of every single state (or even local government), no matter where they are located.

      Under the 9th Amendment right to ethical practice of law, even the appearance of conflict of interest must be avoided when alternatives exist - and the 9th Amendment supersedes the authority of government at all levels. Rights retained by the people are by definition retained by the people and can not be taken away by ANY entity of government. There clearly are alternatives here (Congress should be handling the sales tax issue in some incredibly simple way, or we should be moving away from sales taxes entirely), so there is no doubt this decision is completely without any legitimate legal authority.

      The new ruling will create an enormous artificial demand for the services of legal professionals because businesses will have to know the rules in every possible jurisdiction (taxing jurisdictions have all kinds of crazy rules - even the government officials involved can disagree on the exactly what the rules are, so it requires human judgement and not software to determine who pays and how much they pay - and further the location of different local taxing jurisdictions doesn't necessarily correspond to zip codes) - and that in turn will inevitably reduce competition, increase overhead, and make everything cost more.

      Further, sales taxes are highly regressive - like all regressive taxes they effectively constitute a tax break for the rich. Any dollar in a government's budget that comes from a regressive tax is a dollar that doesn't come from a progressive tax - and the progressive tax would affect the rich more than the poor. A government based on sales tax is a government that has sold itself to the rich and betrayed the people it is supposed to serve (which could be considered a Bill of Rights violation in itself).

      It was bad enough that the representatives of South Dakota made false and/or misleading statements to the Supreme Court in their brief - and clearly violated their own oaths to uphold the Bill of Rights - but not only did the court fail to deal with the matter, they actually rewarded them. Absurd!

      The net effect of the new ruling will be even more reduced upward mobility. That's the inevitable consequence of having high regressive taxes, and of having serious legal ethics problems in the law.

      A big part of the problem here is that people usually underestimate the enormous negative impact of the ethics problems in the legal system on their freedom, their future prospects, and the prospects of their children. Just the direct expenditures on tort alone can be equivalent to a 5% extra income tax on every American in some years (and it's about 2-3x what is spent in other developed nations, see Redja/Brand - Risk Management and Insurance),

    4. Re:I don't think we have stable lifestyles by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      Moving is a sign of upward mobility

      Not hardly. I volunteer with an inner city mission, helping low income people who struggle just to get food on the table. These people move ALL THE TIME. Rarely do they stay in the same house or apartment for more than one year. They certainly aren't getting richer or moving up.

  50. People are bad for The Economy by sgage · · Score: 1

    Never mind that people want to live lives of connectedness in a community where they know their neighbors and surroundings and climate. It's bad for The Economy, so screw community!

    People are bad for The Economy. Let's just do away with them and use robots.

    The economy should serve people and their wants and needs, not vice versa. Fuck The Economy.

  51. Wages move closer to minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Businesses do not like paying good wages. No good wages and it ends up being the smarter choice to stay where you are at and not waste money on moving expenses. Show me a job that pays $25-35 an hour and I'll move out of town. Those jobs are not as prolific as they used to be as businesses are becoming more efficient at reducing costs.

  52. I don't want to move every 5 years. by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    And I'm a stoic minimalist that lives in a 35m^2 apartment. I could move all my stuff in 4 hours or less.

    But it takes time and effort to build a social network (a real one) and once I've settled in and found new friends it sucks to move. So the new job better pay, big time and offer interesting perspectives and/or projects. Since it usually doesn't, go screw yourself and quit wasting my time Mr. Recruiter.

    My 2 eurocents.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  53. Millenials are killing the moving industry by T.E.D. · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you read TFA (which you won't do, so I did it for you), they largely put it down to millenials, who are moving significantly less (although still far more than the average over all ages) than young people of previous generations. OTW: This is yet another "Millenials are killing X" headline.

    Of course we've seen pretty much every one of those are really down to that generation being far poorer and more unemployed than similar generations were at that same point in their lives. There just aren't the opportunities there used to be for young people. This ain't their fault, and the headlines really should be blaming the people with power and resources in this society, not the victims.

    1. Re:Millenials are killing the moving industry by geek · · Score: 0

      There just aren't the opportunities there used to be for young people. This ain't their fault, and the headlines really should be blaming the people with power and resources in this society, not the victims.

      Horse shit. They keep voting for it year after year. It's entirely their own fault and it's why they have such a shit reputation.

    2. Re:Millenials are killing the moving industry by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      All the millenials I know have moved quite far. My roommate moved to SF from Seattle where she works in Network Security, my colleagues moved from Seattle to NYC, W Virginia, and South Korea after their postdocs.

      All millenials. All moved.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:Millenials are killing the moving industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The plural of anecdote is not data.

    4. Re:Millenials are killing the moving industry by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      It's more likely older Americans that are impacting this. We've all decided we want to live in vibrant urban centers with university and colleges and arts, and we are getting rid of all of our possessions so there is less need for moving trucks. In fact, many older Americans I know own 2-3 places, in different states/climates, and they move back and forth. When they're out of town, their kids (mostly millenials) use their places, for the most part, and there's not much need to buy new stuff.

      Look, this whole artificial, carbon-intensive concept of moving a lot is based on having lots of stuff. If you don't have lots of stuff, you just load up a few things and take the enjoyable train ride to the other place, either to go skiing for the winter, or to enjoy the summer beach scene. No need for movers, everything is remotely run so you just turn it on low maintenance mode and order the grocery delivery for the new place the day you arrive.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    5. Re:Millenials are killing the moving industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Millenials aren't that bad. The only thing they're really killing is English.

  54. Well, "Duh!" by rnturn · · Score: 1

    American households are mostly two-income households now. If I pursue and take a job in distant city or state, that means our household could see a 50% drop in income. How many have the ability to weather a cash flow decrease like that?

    Seriously... this has been the case with American households since at least the '80s.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  55. Co-parenting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if higher divorce rates and higher rates of separated families co-parenting has any impact. Dads are more likely to be part of their kids lives now than 20 years ago, in a divorce scenario.

  56. People moving up in the world buy nicer houses by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    they move to nicer neighborhoods with better schools. Are you old enough to remember the TV show "The Jeffersons"? If not look up the theme song. Also, God I'm old...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:People moving up in the world buy nicer houses by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Don't feel bad. I remember the Jeffersons.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:People moving up in the world buy nicer houses by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Jeez, it ended in '85. I'd already bought my first home by then. Get off my lawn!

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    3. Re:People moving up in the world buy nicer houses by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I may have been the one on your lawn. :-)

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re:People moving up in the world buy nicer houses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't feel bad. I remember the Jeffersons.

      Movin on up!

  57. Our house is grand and in our means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My six-figure salary allowed me to purchase a grand estate of four large cardboard boxes behind an abandoned Kmart. It's our forever home, until my wife and I die from Tuberculosis.

    1. Re: Our house is grand and in our means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like sanfran, you need seven figure s to upgrade to a closet or shed.

  58. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  59. Mod parent up, basic shit affirmed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're 1000% more intellectually honest than Shanghai Bill, not only for being correct in this instance, but also admitting you're not an expert. Bill, if you read this, take a page of notes you ridiculous faggot assertionist.

  60. Grandfathered low taxes discourage moving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In many counties the property taxes are unfair to new home buyers, and folks that move from out of state. It's another way the older generations are screwing over the younger generations.

  61. primary job markets are $ negative wize move by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Moving from the big city metro area with a good paying job to another of the big city metro areas results in
    a higher cost of living,
    maybe break even on the pay increase,
    net loss on selling my existing home due to commissions and painting
    net loss on paying someone to move a truck of household possesions from city A to city B

    No better chance at job security in city B.

    Doesn't go into what it does for my spouse to also change jobs.

  62. Harder to find out of state opportunities by Toxiz · · Score: 1

    In cities with housing shortages like Boston, LA, NY, etc, companies are less likely to consider people from out of state. It's too expensive to move them. Even if they are willing to move themselves, many give up in tight housing markets once they realize a shack is a half million dollars.

  63. Telll the Amazonians tough by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    It's my house and I'll move when I'm dead.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  64. We're old by Snotnose · · Score: 1

    When you're young you A) don't have much stuff; B) have friends with pickups/vans; C) are, well, young. As you get older you A) accumulate more stuff; B) Friends with pickups/vans wise up and buy cars, and/or develop back problems (or families); C) stuff hurts. You don't have the endurance. Your friends have stuff that hurts and don't have the endurance.

    I remember the days when moving was a 2-3 day job. Pack, move, buy pizza/beer, unpack. Now? Maybe 3 days to pack, hire a mover, waste a day because the mover sucks, file complaints for the dings/lost stuff, unpack, buy pizza/beer you eat drink with your SO or cat, whichever.

    1. Re:We're old by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      When I moved from my first house to my second, the mover had to point out that he had a minimum charge. I was in that house for 2 decades, and when I moved to my current house, I had to get rid of a bleepload of stuff before moving and I still had at least 10X what I did for the previous move.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  65. I got a new job but I didn't need to move by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few years back I got a new job that involves working from home and flying around the country to different sites. I work for a large corporation as a contractor and I have a corporate laptop to use at home and on the road. While at home, I'm plugged into the corporate network and my day involves working on spreadsheets and custom-made mapping programs while attending multiple conference calls for the multiple customers of the large corporation I work for. From time to time I scan a bunch of documents and upload it to the share point. For the most part, I'm on the road, flying around the country and flying back home for the weekend only to fly out to a different city for a different customer. I've NEVER been to the corporate office or even the somewhat nearby branch office that officially assigned to even though my ID badge supposedly would grant me entrance through the front door. It would have sucked if I had to move to another city just for a new job.

    One side effect is that there are many times I'm not really sure where I am. I'm submitting expense reports for last weeks trip to Tulsa (for example) and I'm making travel arrangements for next week's trip to Fort Wayne even though THIS week I'm in the Minneapolis area. There are many times when I'm at home and it feels strange. It really doesn't matter WHERE I live for this job but at least I didn't need to change my residence for the job. I think I'm rather fortunate to have this job.

    1. Re:I got a new job but I didn't need to move by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      I'm submitting expense reports for last weeks trip to Tulsa (for example) and I'm making travel arrangements for next week's trip to Fort Wayne even though THIS week I'm in the Minneapolis area. There are many times when I'm at home and it feels strange.

      The time home really felt strange was when you called your wife by the wrong name.

    2. Re:I got a new job but I didn't need to move by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol, the Minneapolis area in December - what a treat! :)

  66. No company offers relocation package by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That would ease the financial impact, not to mention the anxiety.

  67. Inability to take loss. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Been there, done that. Wising up because when possessions are an obstacle from you doing what you want or need then something has to change. I'm moving as much media as I can into the cloud. The rest is what disc drives are for, or other portable media. Currently reading, The Minimalist Mindset by Danny Dover. Cutting everything down to, do I need it? When I'm done either I can carry it with me, or fit it into the smallest storage locker I can find. Because there will be potentially many moves in a lifetime, not all voluntary, and it pays to be prepared.

  68. h1 visa workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will move wherever their corporate overlords tell them to go, we just need more visas to fix this problem!

  69. Are people not paying attention to family? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    True. Back in the days the social safety net was a strong family. Not just father, mother, brother, sister; but all the rest. So if someone wanted to do something risky like moving they had help, not only in advice, connections, but monetarily.

  70. Fuck capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're so fucking stupid. Liberals are supporters of capitalism. You're probably looking for socialist.
    You also need a definition for capitalism: A system of production where the working class do all the work, and a separate owner class keep all the proceeds.

    Now if people are anti-capitalism, great. Fuck the economy. People need to look out for what's good for their own health.
    Christian cucks need to fuck off and die, so that freedom loving atheists can live without an overbearing parasitic capitalist class, stealing the produce of their labor.

    1. Re:Fuck capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Found the low IQ millenial. Shut the fuck up, you imbecile, the adults are talking.

  71. O the horror... by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Moving companies will have to stop losing peoples' furniture and ripping us off with unannounced extra charges. After all those years of coasting, they will have to work for our business once again.

  72. That doesn't help with Proposition 13ish laws by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    If you bought a house in 2014, and need to move, you'll be looking at housing that is 50% more expensive than it was then. That's a hard pill to swallow when CPI-adjusted wages have been going down over the same time.

    Yes, and it's a good thing the home you are selling is also worth 50% more!

    In California under proposition 13 (and other places with similar laws) you have an additional factor.

    Prop 13 and the like were intended to keep rising housing prices from leading to rising taxes that end up evicting the old owners. So they freeze the assessed value (with a slight inflation creep) to keep the taxes from skyrocketing with a real estate bubble.

    But sell the house and the new owner gets reassessed, and taxed, at the selling price or current market prices, and current tax rates. Then buy a house, even on the other side of the same town, and it happens to you, too.

    Our house has more than tripled in price since we bought it about 20 years ago, and the mortgage will be paid off in less than another year. If we wanted to move to a different one like it, we'd more than triple our taxes - to about where our current mortgage + insurance + tax payments are. And if we sold, then had to come back to work in the same area, even our current payments for a four-room house on an oversized lot wouldn't rent a one-room apartment within commuting distance of the jobs.

    So we stay where we are, until I either strike it seriously rich, I retire and we can move clear out of state, or (fat chance) the law is adjusted so I can carry the Prop 13 tax abatement with me to a new place and (if necessary) back.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:That doesn't help with Proposition 13ish laws by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Note that, thanks to prop 60 and 90, people OVER 55 can, ONCE IN THEIR LIVES, transfer their tax limit benefit to another house in the same county, IF it is the SAME OR LOWER VALUE, and can do the same to another county IF the other county passes a law to allow it.

      So older Calafornians might be able to move, once, to a nearby and cheaper house, and not get zinged. But they can forget about moving up in the world, or moving at all more than once. So they save it for if/when they really need it.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    2. Re:That doesn't help with Proposition 13ish laws by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Also thanks to Prop 13, if the value of your property goes down, your taxes (usually) still go up!

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    3. Re:That doesn't help with Proposition 13ish laws by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Also thanks to Prop 13, if the value of your property goes down, your taxes (usually) still go up!

      Had that happen: The value went 'way down for a bit at one point during the housing crash. The assessor dropped the assessment and the taxes tracked it down.

      Our assessor was good that way. Don't know if the person was conscientious or trying to head off a LOT of work from appeals, but the result of either is the same so I'll assume the first.

      The value bubbled up again nicely once the crash was over. I didn't check to see if the ramp had ratcheted taxes down to a lower starting point or if it jumped back to the old slow ramp-up when things recovered. (Still have all the records so may yet check that - though not in time for this thread.) Even if it jumped back up I was ahead of where I'd have been without the bubble-pop-bigger-bubble so I'm not complaining.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  73. Heavy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The answer is obvious. We keep getting fatter, so we move less!

  74. Itâ(TM)s hard to meet new friends these days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Honestly think so...

  75. Living away from home? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this factor in all the people who maintain homes in other places but are living near their jobs? At least a dozen people at my employer own houses in other states while renting something close to the job.

  76. Economic growth needs people to stop progress? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So if we progress and live slightly comfortable lives we're hurting the economic growth, maybe we're doing it wrong, economic growth seems to need people to stop progressing and live fine, so then why are we keeping feeding this strange monster if at the end is going to eat us?, on the other part we can say economic growth is like a fairy tale, to work it needs a lot of people suffering and keep living unnecessary hardships and at the end only one person will get a happy ending.

  77. Why I can't move by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

    When I bought my first house, all I could afford was a 100 y/o house in a questionable area. Even in that area, the house prices have increased, but the prices in the good areas have increased more and faster. Even with a higher income and more savings, it would be difficult to move out of that area.

    Plus, my mom lives nearby and she's at the age that she needs my help getting to the store, appointments, etc.

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  78. Wages have reduced by around 40% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Over the last 50 years wages have been reduced around 40% no one can afford to move.

  79. Captain obvious is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wages have reduced significantly over the past decades. At the same age and with the same education as your parents, today, you have less than half the buying power your parents did...

    Corporate America have killed the country and now they are crying about it... So boohoo to you captain obvious for being a corporate stooge who doesn't know anything.

  80. Hmm let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm getting older, have a good engineering job that's stable and pays less than it should but still good pay. Why should I want to sell my house and move somewhere else, start over on the work ladder, pay more for probably everything? The answer is I don't. Now I've moved around in my area and owned houses more than hour drive apart but I really don't want to move to another complete state.

  81. Not only expensive, but unwanted by whitroth · · Score: 1

    Now, I realize that some people - mostly rich, on the right, or both, think moving is a nothingburger... but the majority of folks DO NOT WANT TO MOVE. A lot of them *like* their neighborhood, and have friends and family there, and don't actually *want* to leave them behind.

    The lack-of-moving-bad-for-the-economy is true only if you're the scum who think of a house as "investment property", and flip them, rather than someone who buys a *home* to live in.

    And those real estate agents and house flippers, and the hedge funds that have been buying rental property (and jacking up the rents massively) in the last 9 years... I hope you all die, with all of your belongings in a shopping cart, under a bridge.

  82. more people + bad economy = less opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In addition to more expensive and less available house, we have 38 million more people in the US in 2017 than we had in 2002. So more people added to an environment that has fewer opportunities should result in reduced rates of change. That the number of people moving is only down by 5 million should be the surprise, not that it's down at all.

  83. I'd switch careers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...rather than move again. Love the IT life currently, but moving is so painful I'd be willing to work in a warehouse again to avoid the move.

  84. Who can afford to move? by skinfaxi · · Score: 1

    When you have no savings, massive debt, are living with your family or renting a flophouse with friends, and are cobbling together three part-time jobs to survive, how are you going to be able to afford to move? Buying a house is totally out of reach for many people. First & last months' rent + deposit is out of reach for many people. As long as the youngest generation of workers is kept in poverty, there are just going to be more hits on an economy that is predicated on people being able to afford to do things like buy a house or move across the country.