Party Is Over For Dirt-Cheap Solar Panels, Says China Executive (reuters.com)

The president of a top-10 maker of solar panels said the global solar power industry is about to lose a major competitive windfall as prices of Chinese-made solar panels begin to recover after a collapse last year. "The party is definitely over," said Eric Luo, president of China's GCL System Integration Technology Co. Reuters reports: Solar panel prices tumbled around 30 percent last year after China, the world's largest producer, cut subsidies to shrink its bloated solar industry, pushing smaller manufacturers to the brink of collapse. To raise cash and stay afloat, manufacturers cleared inventory and diverted sales offshore, sending prices into a downward spiral - offering up a windfall for solar power generators and investors in solar farms.

Luo, speaking to Reuters at the World Economic Forum in the Swiss ski resort of Davos this week, said GCL's vertically integrated business model cushioned it from the downturn in prices as its solar farms benefited from cheaper panels. The pain will mostly be felt by smaller Chinese producers, which lack international supply chains, triggering industry consolidation or forcing them to close, he added. Luo said solar panel prices were already stabilizing and he expected them to rebound by 10 to 15 percent as the Chinese industry consolidates over the next year or two. Luo also said that China was getting to the point where the solar industry could operate without any form of subsidy. Northwest China, where the sun is more plentiful and land is less expensive, has already reached that point, he said.

Comments

low energy density

[js290]

Nicole Foss on renewables http://bit.ly/2rzS5Pq

Re:low energy density

[Anonymous Coward]

And they generate anywhere with sunlight so that's not really a super big issue derp.

Re: low energy density

[aliquis]

Tell that to the people running the machines in the mine in Kiruna.

Re:low energy density

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Yes, because we're running out of roofs and unused fields...

Re: low energy density

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Apparently they might actually be quite happy with solar in summer. It might allow them to do maintenance on any thermal generation equipment they have over there.

Re: low energy density

[Anonymous Coward]

I would but they would not understand.

Re:low energy density

[Maury Markowitz]

She claims EROEI on PV is 3:1. Sure, in 1987 maybe. Current panels have "harmonized EROIs between 8.7 and 34.2".

Re:low energy density

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Sunlight appears to be the most equitably distributed primary power source on the whole planet. Even the worst regions don't seem to be more than 4x or so worse than the best region on the planet (a part of Chile, I suspect?). Any other source, such as wind, coal deposits, oil deposits, uranium ore etc. have vastly higher geographic differences (although admittedly, for some, such as uranium, this might not impact their practicality).

Re:low energy density

[Anonymous Coward]

"Harmonized", as in after you cook the numbers starting from ideal conditions and applying some BS reasoning? It is highly doubtful that solar is viable without relying on fossil energy, and EROI also ignores materials inputs, associated mining, and eventual disposal; if we can rape the environment more efficiently, the number improves. Economical recycling of panels has also not been demonstrated, and those costs are left for future generations.

Re:low energy density

[K. S. Kyosuke]

"Harmonized", as in after you cook the numbers starting from ideal conditions and applying some BS reasoning?

No, as in, when confronted with data from various sources, you try to correct for the methodological differences to put the results in a meta-study on equal footing.

It is highly doubtful that solar is viable without relying on fossil energy

*This* is an actual example of "BS reasoning", seeing as manufacturing of solar equipment is primarily electricity-intensive.

and EROI also ignores materials inputs, associated mining, and eventual disposal

Of course it doesn't, why would it do that? Cradle-to-grave analysis is a thing nowadays.

Re:low energy density

[aliquis]

I've never got how "4x worse" make any mathematical sense without a reference.

If some other region was say 10% away from the best then 4x as much would be 40% away and sure that work.

4x worse than the best one though? What?

You're not the only one who say it like that but it seem completely retarded, why not say 1/4 as good or 3/4 less instead?

Re: low energy density

[aliquis]

Well the point was really that 1) it's above the polar circle so in the winter there are no daylight whatsoever for some time and kinda more importantly though of course not making it impossible 2) the latest(?) level they are mining at is at 1.3+ km depth so not much sun light is getting there ..

Re: low energy density

[Anonymous Coward]

They have the technology to mine 1.3 km into the Earth. But dont have the technology to make a wire to transfer the power?
Not much sun reaches your head when it's stuck up your ass either.

Re: low energy density

[aliquis]

Then again I wouldn't need any with my brilliant mind inside there.

Re:low energy density

[K. S. Kyosuke]

I'm saying it that way because of interference from my mother tongue.

If some other region was say 10% away from the best then 4x as much would be 40% away and sure that work.

I don't understand that part at all.

You're not the only one who say it like that but it seem completely retarded, why not say 1/4 as good or 3/4 less instead?

Because it's an equivalent, and in my mother tongue your suggestions would be completely retarded.

Re:low energy density

[aliquis]

Why is your mother tongue illogical and wrong? What language is it?

Re: low energy density

[K. S. Kyosuke]

It's no more illogical or wrong than English. You know, Englsh, the language that raped the Latin alphabet?

Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free, man

[elrous0]

Why you gotta harsh our vibe, China?

Oh man she is off her rocker

[Crashmarik]

She actually talks about using direct solar heating to replace an immersion heater for heating a cup of water.

Yeah deer no worries, have your tea ready in a trice, let me just sight the Fresnel Lens on the sun and the water will be hot in a jiffy.

Then she complains nuclear doesn't have a sufficient energy profit and we should directly generate and employ motive power from intermittent sources. Yeah be real nice having a band saw directly powered by the wind or hooked up to a Stirling Engine in a concentrating collector.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[Anonymous Coward]

Parabolic heliostat leading to a large thermal mass via waveguide with a mirrored hatch through which cup can be interposed into beam path. Direct heat when sunny, indirect via heat exchanger at other times. Also suitable for kinetic output with turbine (stirling a poor choice for high power).

Direct motive energy from wind to perform non time critical tasks. Flywheel in evacuated enclosure with magnetic bearings to extend availability.

Argument from incredulity rejected. Engineering knowledge and imagination impugned.

Next.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[angel'o'sphere]

Perhaps you should up what "intermittent" actually means.

I'm in Thailand, Isan, since 5,5 month. There were two rainy days and two cloudy days. Sun goes up at 6:30 and sets around 17:30. Absolutely nothing "intermittent" here ... same for the Sahara or Australia.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[Anonymous Coward]

Knew you were a pedophile.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[blackest_k]

That's misrepresenting what she was saying. Simply it is easier to harvest heat from solar rather than electrical energy and it's far more efficient than generating electricity and then using it to heat water.

Googling solar water heaters, a typical home can get a system for around 5 to 6000 before grants. It saves around 800 a year. If you have the money it's a good return and it does work on a cloudy winters day. If you own your own home it's a reasonable option.

Power generation pretty much is too expensive for individual homes, the best way to be green is to be more energy efficient but there is a catch.

http://live.windenergy.ie/ currently shows around 56% of irelands energy needs is being provided by Wind of course that varies a lot. Over capacity is always going to be needed. Although some of this can be via interconnectors The Island of Ireland has 2 interconnectors to the UK and can import or export up to 1000MW For grid stability Wind currently can be up to 65% of demand so being able to increase demand via exporting is a good thing the UK has around 3000MW of interconnectors with france and the netherlands. Sometimes they are importing from france and the netherlands while exporting to Ireland.

There is a bit of an issue with overcapacity in order for power generators to invest in plant they need a return on their capital investment. So they get capacity payments when they are shut down by the grid. This increases the price we pay for electricity. There is always a number of generators either stopped or running at minimum capacity. in ireland demand varies usually between 3000 to 6000 MW in a daily cycle.

Prior to the 2008 crash demand was expected to increase and generators were commissioned to meet that demand, this demand didn't appear so these generators got capacity payments for standing idle, as we were busy trying to cut our power usage, electricity prices rose to compensate for reduced demand.

If there was a sudden uptake in Solar heating and Generation you would be using less from the main suppliers but chances are the price they charge you will rise in order to compensate for you taking less from them. Kind of like apple increasing the price of macs and phones in order to compensate for lost sales.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[Maury Markowitz]

> Yeah be real nice having a band saw directly powered by the wind

You mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6FxG3ll-lw

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[drinkypoo]

Simply it is easier to harvest heat from solar rather than electrical energy and it's far more efficient than generating electricity and then using it to heat water.

It makes plenty of sense to have both thermal and PV systems. However, the thermal systems are grossly more prone to failure, and anything likely to produce return trips to the roof has a cost, albeit a fractional one — in lives. Most of the deaths from solar involve falling off of roofs, and solar installer is a fairly dangerous job as a result.

Power generation pretty much is too expensive for individual homes,

It depends on where those homes are located. PG&E is claiming that they're going to have to significantly increase rates in order to go forward. Most PG&E customers are in regions with good insolation. PG&E doesn't fight you if you want to grid tie. So that's many millions of people for whom PV is going to make good sense.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[DCFusor]

Even if - my large array (Around 4kw peak) runs my home campus even on cloudy days, since it only draws ~ 300w when I'm not running a lathe or welder. All this crap about concentrators is dumb-ass and only for places like deserts or maybe Thailand. The rest of us have lots of cloudy days, and you know what? If there's enough light to see...there's some power coming out, even in diffuse light - from a panel array. Like street racing where there's no substitute for cubic inches - no substitute for plain old area.
Concentrators only work when you don't need them, such a deal I have for you....

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[HiThere]

You're under-rating concentrators...but not as much as some people overrate them. I've seen someone set up on the sidewalk using a concentrator to weld plastic. So they can be used and be useful. But she had to move as the sun moved. Inconvenient, at best.

I think concentrators could be quite useful in places where there's a lot of unshaded space to do something requiring focused moderate heat with someone already present to do the stuff...because someone's going to need to adjust the angles every so often.

Now that's a very limited use case, but it's a real one. Whether they're the best choice in even that circumstance may be dubious, but they don't require any external power, so perhaps.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[ilguido]

I'm in Thailand

That's the problem. To manufacture solar PV cells and an adequate power grid, you need an advanced industry. You can install a small hydroelectric power plant in the middle of Africa, or on the top of Andes and it works and everyone can maintain it for decades with a worker toolbox. The same goes for a diesel or petrol or gas power unit. But solar? You can do maintenance only if you have access to an industrially advanced society: a society that could not sustain itself on solar alone.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[Crashmarik]

What is that thing where the sun is completely unavailable no matter if there is cloud cover or not ?

Oh yeah I think they call it nighttime.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[HiThere]

In Southern California, where there's a lot of air conditioner use, and in the northern central valley (ditto), it does make a lot of sense. The heavy use and the heavy generation happen at the same time. Along the coast, where air conditioner use is minor, it's a lot more problematical, as heavy use tends to happen around 5-7PM, when the sun's not helping much. If the grid couldn't port the electricity generated in midday from the coast inland and to the South, photoelectric would be a horrendous problem. But even as it is, there's a huge requirement for storage and supplemental generation...which means CO2 or nuclear. (There's a small bit of geothermal electricity, but that's a trickle. There's also some wind, which is unpredictably variable.) Now backup generators take some time to come on-line, but the time requirements vary with the kind of generator. IIRC there's a kind of gas powered thermomagnetic generator that's nearly instantaneous...but I've never heard of a large one. So you need to have your backup power running already when you THINK you're going to need it.

I'm no specialist in this area, so I'm sure I left out a lot. But it's not a simple problem, and a few years ago (a decade?) I heard that when alternative power sources (i.e., those not controlled by the utility) get above 10% or 15% the grid becomes unstable. IIRC, this included all wind generators even if the utility owned them, because they could shut down generation unexpectedly.

P.S.: Please note that those who decide to go off the grid need to budget for a large oversupply of battery storage, or to accept that their power will go off occasionally. (With, of course, trade-off positions in intermediate positions with degrees of investment in generation and storage.)

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[dryeo]

On the other hand, https://weather.gc.ca/city/pag... note the sunrise and sunset times, about 11:45-16:30 as well as the cold temperatures.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[Aighearach]

What is that thing where the sun is completely unavailable no matter if there is cloud cover or not ?

Oh yeah I think they call it

... low demand hours!

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[DCFusor]

It's January here. We have maybe 6-8 days this month where a concentrator would work AT ALL. Meanwhile, I like to make my tea every single day without fail, not to mention keep my physics vacuum system pumped down. February will be worse if it's like most years. Summertime? Hell, I can weld all day while someone runs the milling machine. That's reality.
The number of batteries I would need (I already have ~ $9k worth, a couple tons weight) - to use fewer panels but install concentrators which cost nearly the same per sq foot (panels are under $1/watt now if you install yourself) - would cost FAR more than the system I have.
.

Sure, if you live in certain places they are a good deal, just like wind is a good deal in a windy place. In the mountains where it's often cloudy, they are not only useless but they are a hazard in high winds. We don't get enough wind normally to make a windmill worth it either - except in a few mountain peak places. There's this concept - right tool for the job at hand; use the right thing for where you are, OK? It would be more expensive, dangerous, and a waste where I live to use concentrators. But then, I've only been off grid since 1980 or so, so maybe I have more to learn. /s

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[aaarrrgggh]

You are actually better off from an efficiency perspective with PV and a heat pump hot water heater, unless you need higher than 120F water. Running it from the bathroom exhaust in the winter and indoor air in the summer and you are golden.

Logic being that you are decoupling hot water demand from sunshine, so both resources are fully utilized. Off-grid the math is different, as well as when you need 140F water.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[HiThere]

The lady I saw using it wasn't living off the grid. She just wanted to weld plastic where there was sun, but no source of electricity. She wasn't using it as a replacement for grid electricity, but as a specific source for a specific project in a specific place. (OTOH, to justify the investment, she must do it fairly often.)

Like I said, concentrators are usually oversold. But they do have some used.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[angel'o'sphere]

You can do many things with "unreliable solar power" ... or with wind depending on places.
My plan is to use only electric pumps (most are electric anyway), to irrigate the farmland of my wife.
At the moment they use a mobile pump with a gasoline engine and place it whee ever they need it, it has a tank for about 6h, so if you want it to run longer than that you have to drive there and refill it.
Usually you run it 4 days, 2x 6h or so ... depending how busy you are with refilling .... to water one parcel of a rice field. A solar pump I simply put there ... the only fear is some idiot is stealing the panel. So watch out for people putting new panels on the roof :D
And even if the pump takes 5 days for an odd reason ... it still is ok.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[angel'o'sphere]

You can do maintenance only if you have access to an industrially advanced society: a society that could not sustain itself on solar alone.

What has that to do with me living in Thailand? Thailand is an industrial advanced society. Hence they e.g. have faster internet even in the most rural areas than anywhere in the US.

I simply pointed out to the parent, that where I live, during this part for the year, I have reliable 13.5h solar power: every single day. However: our power comes from the grid. And as we only have a fridge, 2 computers, light at night and rarely anything else running: our electricity is free.

Re:Oh man she is off her rocker

[angel'o'sphere]

Most people in Thailand don't need power at night, except for the fridge, and for that they have a thing we call a grid.

Dumbass ....

Re: Oh man she is off her rocker

[Anonymous Coward]

A hydroelectric plant contains many moving parts and needs much more complex maintenance than solar panels, from maintenance of turbines to dredging basins that fill with silt, to the complexity of the initial build. Hydroelectric makes most sense with large projects that dam rivers and require significant grid infrastructure (contrary to your post) whereas solar installations can be more distributed if required, or linked to a grid.

Furthermore, hydroelectric generally requires flooding a river valley, which is where the most fertile land tends to be, and African soil fertility is generally not great. Also if rainfall fails for a while you are out of power with hydroelectric, but it's not really likely to be heavily overcast continually in Africa.

However, to provide a variety of sources combining solar to cover diurnal peaks, and hydroelectric power is not necessarily a bad idea.

Re: Oh man she is off her rocker

[Anonymous Coward]

The main issues with solar thermal are general plumbing issues (not all of which are on the roof, but can be in the heat exchanging tank), and the need to ensure that the working fluid neither boils nor freezes. Definitely there is the potential for more on roof maintenance than PV, and more complexity if you want to add more capacity. It's not that bad, though.

The US wishes it could be *tha* capitalist.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just destroying the free market to gouge people with one's monopoly, but *openly* saying it too!

It's somehow funny, to see China being so capitalist that they make the US businesses look almost social and human-like.

It's your turn, USA! Either become a "capitalist"-but-actually-de-facto-comminist state, ... Or ... double down and reinstall the Rockefeller-time rules. Abolish ALL the rights. USA No #1!! </General Ripper>

Re: The US wishes it could be *tha* capitalist.

[subie]

I say this on behalf of several people when i say "huh?"

Re: The US wishes it could be *tha* capitalist.

[Anonymous Coward]

Grandpa has stopped taking his anti-troll meds again. Someone should alert the orderlies to, at the very least, revoke his internet priviledges until such time as he can either stop typing up posts whilst his upper body is inside the dark confines of his own rectum or he gets over his pompus self and stops flinging poo posts at the other posters.

Good thing I already have mine

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless my roof explodes or something, I'll have to worry about panel prices again just 20-25 years from now. I wonder how prices will be by then.

Bright side

[PopeRatzo]

The good news is there are now at least 23 companies making solar panels in the USA, and their prices are becoming more competitive. It'll get even better once the dumb trade war is over.

Re:Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

How would reducing tariffs on artificially underpriced goods make US goods more competitive? What is less, 3+1 or 5?

And the highest estimate for US solar companies is 14, but many are startups or otherwise have tiny output.

The pope is facing early stages of dementia and finding it hard to cope.

Re:Bright side

[LynnwoodRooster]

You can thank the 30% tariff that President Trump put on Chinese panels for assisting those US manufacturers...

Re:Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly why the trade war was started. China subsidized solar, dumped panels in the US and elsewhere, destroyed many non-Chinese manufacturers, and now that they've succeeded at cornering the market, they're removing subsidies and letting prices rise again. It's these tactics that Trump is targeting.

Re:Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

That didn't assist them, it sunk them, The tariffs affect all the raw components needed to build the panels in the US too.

Re:Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you yanks should mine more rare earth minerals, oh wait...

Re:Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

No. The trade war started because Trump is in the pocket of the US steel industry.

Re: Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_rare_earth_mine

Re:Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

No one is in the pocket of the US steel industry. They don't have enough money to even buy local politicians. They weren't able to stop NAFTA and today they have a fraction of the funds.

There is a reason why it's called the rust belt.

Re:Bright side

[LynnwoodRooster]

Tariff was on the assembled panels, not the parts. If the companies sunk - even with a 30% tariff applied to their competition - then China was dumping panels (meaning that people are buying them below cost - unrealistic costs for solar power) or the companies aren't competitive in the first place.

Re: Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

FYA: Edit In the 1980s, the company began piping wastewater up to 14 miles to evaporation ponds on or near Ivanpah Dry Lake, east of Interstate 15 near Nevada. This pipeline repeatedly ruptured during cleaning operations to remove mineral deposits called scale. The scale is radioactive because of the presence of thorium and radium, which occur naturally in the rare-earth ore. A federal investigation later found that some 60 spills—some unreported—occurred between 1984 and 1998, when the pipeline and chemical processing at the mine were shut down.[12] In all, about 600,000 gallons of radioactive and other hazardous waste flowed onto the desert floor, according to federal authorities. By the end of the 1990s, Unocal was served with a cleanup order and a San Bernardino County district attorney's lawsuit. The company paid more than $1.4 million in fines and settlements. After preparing a cleanup plan and completing an extensive environmental study, Unocal in 2004 won approval of a county permit that allowed the mine to operate for another 30 years. The mine also passed a key county inspection in 2007.[6]

Since 2007, China has restricted exports of REEs and imposed export tariffs, both to conserve resources and to give preference to Chinese manufacturers.[13] In 2009, China supplied more than 96% of the world's REEs. Some outside China are concerned that because rare earths are essential to some high-tech, renewable-energy, and defense-related technologies, the world should not be so reliant on a single supplier country.

On September 22, 2010, China quietly enacted a ban on exports of rare earths to Japan, a move suspected to be in retaliation for the Japanese arrest of a Chinese trawler captain in a territorial dispute. Because Japan and China are the only current sources for rare-earth magnetic material used in the US, a permanent disruption of Chinese rare-earth supply to Japan would leave China as the sole source. Jeff Green, a rare-earth lobbyist, said, "We are going to be 100 percent reliant on the Chinese to make the components for the defense supply chain."[16] The House Committee on Science and Technology scheduled on September 23, 2010, the review of a detailed bill to subsidize the revival of the American rare-earths industry, including the reopening of the Mountain Pass mine.[

Re:Bright side

[K. S. Kyosuke]

The non-Chinese manufacturers were destroyed *years* ago. I don't see how this market development has anything to do with "letting prices rise again". This seems like a pretty normal economic cycle.

Re:Bright side

[PopeRatzo]

And the highest estimate for US solar companies is 14

I didn't say "US solar companies". I said companies making solar panels in the US.

Re:Bright side

[HiThere]

Where do they get their chips, though? I thought all the foundries moved overseas.

Re: Bright side

[jgtg32a]

Yeah lost 2 grand on that one with Molycorp

Re:Bright side

[Aighearach]

The decoder-ring for your statement is "trade war."

That shows that when you say "panel," you only mean final assembly of the parts.

If the trade war continues, expect old chip fabs in the US to be converted to making the whole thing.

Re:Bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that now China has a monopoly since they successfully drove every foreign (for them) manufacturer out of the market.
That's exactly the case where tariffs should be put in place, when there are clear predatory practices.

Re:Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free, m

[PopeRatzo]

The sun is still free, and there are more companies making solar panels in the USA and Canada than ever. Some of their prices are competitive with China, too. One US company is about to open a big plant in Mexico.

Your vibe doesn't have to be harshed.

Remove Banner Google Add!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi there, we know you are a commecial site, but the banner add is so big I can't read you top article on a frikin 1920 x 1080 screen!! Cut it out!!

Good thing Chine does not have any heavy industry.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck running heavy machines or furnaces without any reactive power...

Re:Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free, m

[elrous0]

Good. More jobs for us then.

Obviously Fake News

[Jarwulf]

Every other story here keeps telling me solar and wind are already dirt cheap and exceed every other source of power for every use case in every situation in every way without having to lift a finger or subsidize it in any way and in fact the only thing keeping fossil fuels is massive subsidizing of them and we'd automatically enter a golden age of sun powered space colonies and ufos if people would quit their obsession with losing trillions of dollars and billions of lives a year to keep coal and oil for some reason. So how does this story make any sense that a few factories in china are going to threaten all this?

Re:Obviously Fake News

[Anonymous Coward]

The truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes, as usual.

Re:Obviously Fake News

[Anonymous Coward]

you talk like the choice between renewable and non renewable is price.
I mean, sure, that might work just a little bit longer, but sooner or later perhaps people might wake up and realise that paying less FOR A BIT is probably not a great plan when things go completely to shit when you could have just paid a bit more from the start.

the problem with the world is in fact, everyone wants everything as cheap as possible. Its a flawed philosophy because it assumes resources are infinite.

Do yourselves a favour. Every time you think about buying "the cheaper" option, do a bit of research and work out why its cheaper. Maybe consider "total cost" as a better evaluation.

Re:Obviously Fake News

[K. S. Kyosuke]

But they *are* cheap and getting cheaper still. It's called "technological progress", and it happens to solar and wind generation equipment just like it happened to the efficiency and power-to-weight ratio of steam engines in the past, for example. These fluctuations mentioned in the article, which already happened in the past anyway, are irrelevant for the big picture.

Re:Obviously Fake News

[blackest_k]

The problem with renewable energy is not so much the price to do so but the cost of not running non renewable energy. Power plants are built on the basis that there is going to be a return on investment. Truth is they get paid both to produce and not to produce in order to return that investment.

Taking Ireland as an example, i work in this market, demand can vary between around 3000 MW to 6000MW typically on a daily basis, Sometimes demand can reach higher or lower. So at minimum demand there is at least 3000MW of generation capacity that is off or running at minimum load. This idle generation is paid a capacity payment. When you introduce Wind you have a variable source, the maximum wind generation to date was just short of 4000 MW on a low it can reach as low as 200MW So you need enough standby generation to cover those low days and they are going to get paid if they run or not.
Environmentally it's better to run using renewable energy but you still have to pay the non renewable energy producers anyway. If you didn't then you might not cover peak demand and then we could be sitting in the dark. It's not that hard to destabilize the grid.

It's kind of interesting what tesla is doing in Australia they have huge battery packs which are charged by the wind farms and able to supply the grid at a moments notice. This helps a lot.

Re:Obviously Fake News

[K. S. Kyosuke]

At one point in the future, you will overbuild the generation capacity and control load by intermittently synthesizing ammonia to replace fossil fuels used for the same purpose today. Just the current global consumption of ammonia would necessitate several hundred GW of extra average generation, so there's plenty of room for load management.

Re:Obviously Fake News

[sfcat]

At one point in the future, you will overbuild the generation capacity and control load by intermittently synthesizing ammonia to replace fossil fuels used for the same purpose today. Just the current global consumption of ammonia would necessitate several hundred GW of extra average generation, so there's plenty of room for load management.

There is no way that will ever be economically efficient. Syn fuels are great but not a panacea. They have 2 basic inputs to make them: heat and fuel-stock. The fuel-stock is easier but still you need a lot of it and hopefully we can use plant material instead of coal. The real problem is that the heat needs to be consistent and of a specific temperature (at least 500C to be efficient) and getting that from electricity is very hard/inefficient/expensive. To make it efficient you really need nuclear (specifically MSRs running between 500-700C). Also, you need to make the fuel for cheaper than its currently available from the ground. You just can't do this without a very large source of consistent heat that you can only make economically from fossil fuels or nuclear. Also, for fun, the fuel market is just as big as electricity when measured in units of energy. Remind me again how we do that with solar or wind?

Re:Obviously Fake News

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Setting aside the fallacies in some of your reasoning, what does *anything* of that have to do with ammonia? Ammonia is mostly used for agriculture, then for other chemical purposes. Just the agricultural use alone can take advantage of any generation surpluses.

Re:Obviously Fake News

[grep -v '.*' *]

The problem with renewable energy is not so much the price to do so but the cost of not running non renewable energy.

... you need enough standby generation to cover those low days and they are going to get paid if they run or not.

THIS. I'd upvote you to 6 but I don't have any points, never mind cascading points.

All these guys with renewables forget they're not 100% dependable and unless you want to be in the dark you need a backup source ready to go within seconds, not construction years. And 10x overproduction is great, but at night none of the solar banks are busy. I want an average load-out with peaks, but I've got variable input that ranges from 0-200%. NOT the same thing.

It's kind of interesting what tesla is doing in Australia

THAT. Besides pushing trains or water uphill or spinning wheels or compressing air, that's the only innovation I've heard in a long time. And they're doing it with millisecond quantity, not just supporting a hospital or single neighborhood. (30,000 homes for an hour.)

Informative AND pretty pictures: One, Two, Three, Four, Five.

Re: Obviously Fake News

[Anonymous Coward]

Solar and wind will take over everything. They are all new generation. But utilities are in debt over the last 40 years of coal, nuke, and gas spending so they have to depreciate those assets or strand them. Each 1kw of coal in the US (fleet age 40+ years) still caries about 1000 usd in debt, which is about the cost of a new solar or wind facility... quick technology evolution is a bitch for slow moving industries

Re: Know what else is made in the USA? apk

[subie]

Is the APK host file app thingy compatible with solar panels too?

China is bad for the environment

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember when Obama took a great deal of flak for investing government money into a few solar panel manufacturers that went into bankruptcy? The Chinese government started companies and dumped money into the solar industry to ensure US companies failed.

China did that on purpose to secure a monopoly on solar panels while being the leading installer of neverclean coal power plants. Now that their position as a near-monopoly is secured and their competitors broken, they no longer need to dump subsidies to undercut everyone else.

They made the anvil out of dirty coal-spewing plants putting out more CO2 than all western countries combined causing severe demand and manipulating markets to ensure they are the supply.

Here comes the hammer.

This is a sad day for anyone who isn't a climate change denier and wants solar-power to continue it's downward pricing trend. If only we could collectively come together to fight this and stop China's immoral behavior.

Since when are "jobs" a good thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much everybody hates his job.
What people mean, is that they want an income... to survive.
But they have been shamed into believing they should not get anything and die, unless they work hard and have no joy in life and are happy with that.
Yes, people should not get power to make others work (=money), when they haven't worked themselves!
But first of all, the more we have machines that automate work away and machines that fix them and themselves, the more wealth is generated without anyone having to work for it. Certainly, that wealth is free for everyone. So the need for a job mostly has already fallen away. But ...
Secondly, those who tell us we need jobs to deserve living, are exactly those who did not work for "their" money, but only to avoid work and make us work for them. And the problem is that they still hog all that wealth that should be ours, and use it to completely automate wealth creation away from us!

So we should not demand jobs, like beggars, but take income from automation, like choosers!

Re:Since when are "jobs" a good thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. I have lived my dreams in fields that I loved until I started working in them. I have done many jobs and I have always been miserable eventually. I just want to be left alone and get on with life, I hate this life we have no choice in being part of.

Re:Since when are "jobs" a good thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds a lot like you had bad working conditions and crappy exploitative bosses.

Re:Since when are "jobs" a good thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

And you are different how? Do explain.

Re:Since when are "jobs" a good thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just like your opinion, man. Now get back to work or i find someone else

Re:Since when are "jobs" a good thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should consider your happiness more when selecting jobs. Not like how sweet it would be to be an astronaut and more how happy would I be if my boss doesn't get upset when we miss a few deadlines and is ok with me working from home for a week sometimes.

How the hell did you miss add blockers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you been living behind the moon ... of *Pluto*?

Get yourself uBlock Origin or something!

Advertisement is de-facto fraud and a legalized crime. Kill it with fire (and foxes)!

mod down

[bernywork]

commenting to take away a bad mod

Re:mod down

[mentil]

I modded you up on accident so am posting to undo mod

Re:mod down

[Highdude702]

I didn't mod either of you because I ran out of mod points so I couldn't waste a mod point commenting to unmod a mod. mod.

Re:mod down

[angel'o'sphere]

And I have no mod point to mod you funny, sad, isn't it?

Re:mod down

[ceoyoyo]

It's okay, I did it for you.

Re: mod down

[ceoyoyo]

What? Commenting reverses mods? Damn, didnâ(TM)t know. Iâ(TM)m new here.

Re:Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free, m

[AmiMoJo]

This only had a major effect on big commercial users like solar farms. Residential customers will be buying panels from domestic or Japanese/Korean brands most likely, complete with long warranty periods.

Thanks

[Crashmarik]

Parabolic heliostat leading to a large thermal mass via waveguide with a mirrored hatch through which cup can be interposed into beam path. Direct heat when sunny, indirect via heat exchanger at other times. Also suitable for kinetic output with turbine (stirling a poor choice for high power).

Direct motive energy from wind to perform non time critical tasks. Flywheel in evacuated enclosure with magnetic bearings to extend availability.

Argument from incredulity rejected. Engineering knowledge and imagination impugned.

Next.

That's even funnier than the crazy woman.

30% govt subsidies - not capitalist

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never understood why govt lawmakers don't slowly ramp up subsides and slowly ramp down subsidies for things they want to encourage.
Seems stupid to have a 30% subsidy one day and 0% the next.
With ramping up/down, the fly-by-night people wouldn't be as opportunistic.
This would work for any technology that govt wants to support (EVs) or for any product that govt wants to harm (tobacco).

Re: 30% govt subsidies - not capitalist

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never understood why the government encourages or discourages any business. How the fuck do some government bureaucrats and lifer politicians who have never been in the real world come off thinking they know better than the people actually out here in the real world who have to suffer the consequences or enjoy the benefits of our decisions?

The government making business level economics decisions is the blind leading the sighted people. They should never subsidize or penalize any business outside of war time or other emergency events. Subsidized solar for homes is not an emergency and this article is a perfect example of how government interference has distorted a marketplace to everyones detriment.

Re:Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free, m

[Anonymous Coward]

There is an upper end to how much you can charge for solar panels in solar farms.
At some point the buyer will go for a solution with mirrors and molten salt. instead.

So it will most likely be an issue for solar panel manufacturers in China.
Both residential customers and power plants have other options.

Rent, workers

[AHuxley]

China has a problem. Its skilled workers now want a wage.
Everyone wants rent and their part of an export products profits.
What to do?
Use robots?
Invest in a new factory in Laos? Vietnam? Indonesia?
Stay in China and pay the rent, tax and workers?

Communist party is not going to save the solar quota party.
Communist party only wants the low price energy. Coal is back as they can go lower on the energy price. Real power prices. Without the past solar subsidy.
The subsidies just stopped and the real world price of solar just got discovered.
Solar still has to meet the highest standards. So no cost reductions.

Re:Rent, workers

[Pinky's Brain]

Solar for the patsies, coal for China. China is building as much coal generating capacity as US has in its entirety ... the few PV projects are only value signalling.

Without subsidy levelized cost for solar has to be cheaper than fuel cost for coal plants they have any way. That's less than a $0.01 per kWh, solar is getting close but it's still at least a decade off barring some technological leap AFAICS.

Re:Rent, workers

[Maury Markowitz]

>That's less than a $0.01 per kWh

Huh? "CN: Usage Price: Electricity for Industry: 35 kV & Above" from https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/electricity-price

0.870 RMB/kWh = 13 cents USD/kWh

The US price for industrial power is lower across the board:

https://blsstrategies.com/docs/news/News_181.pdf

20 year solar PPAs are being signed for delivery this year at 1.4 cents/kWh. More realistic numbers for China are between 4 and 6 cents. That is precisely why China announced they were no longer offering any support on PV installs. Yet in spite of removing those incentives, current predictions are for ~45 GWp of installs this year in China alone.

It's not hard to see why: PV can be installed incrementally, one panel at a time. Therefore you can easily ramp up and down with supply-n-demand, labor availability, access to cash, etc. Wind and natural gas are next in line in scalability, the former ~1.5MW per install and the later around 200 kW in most cases. But for something like a reactor, it's 1 GW or nothing. This really skews the financing side toward the renewables.

Re:Rent, workers

[Pinky's Brain]

They have the coal plants any way, as well as the personnel to man it.

The _levelized_ cost of solar has to compete against the _fuel_ cost of coal.

Re:Rent, workers

[Kernel Kurtz]

Solar for the patsies, coal for China. China is building as much coal generating capacity as US has in its entirety ... the few PV projects are only value signalling.

Without subsidy levelized cost for solar has to be cheaper than fuel cost for coal plants they have any way. That's less than a $0.01 per kWh, solar is getting close but it's still at least a decade off barring some technological leap AFAICS.

Exactly.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/j...

Re:Rent, workers

[Aighearach]

No, they have externalized costs that they already consider to be greater than any savings.

And the coal cost is higher than PV. The only reason China uses any coal is for total capacity.

Re:Rent, workers

[AHuxley]

Re "And the coal cost is higher than PV."
Not with the real cost of solar in China to China for solar vs coal.
If coal was more expensive than solar in China then coal would not be considered.
Coal is still been considered now in 2019 so it is still cheaper energy than a new large solar project.

Re:Rent, workers

[AHuxley]

The USA is not China. Coal and solar production have fixed costs in China.
Coal can still be considered vs a new large solar project.
China wants the lowest cost of energy 24/7. So no factory has to pay more for energy at any time of the day/night.
A supported solar project with all its costs still allows coal to be cheaper.
Communists want low cost power to drive jobs and exports.
Coal power just keeps the energy going 24/7 at a fixed price.

Re:Rent, workers

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Coal is "being considered in 2019"? You mean they stopped cancelling tens of gigawatts worth of coal projects?

Re:Rent, workers

[AHuxley]

Every new power generation project will be considered as a real cost.
The lowest cost energy project that can power a factory to make exports 24/7 wins Communist party backing.
A coal, solar project would be considered.
Coal projects can still win on price so they get given approval. No more just doing solar to show solar is getting used more.

Re: Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free,

[Anonymous Coward]

There isn't a single solar panel manufacturing company in Canada. 100% of the solar panels with a Canadian company name are nothing but rebranded Chinese garbage panels.

Oh hell ... Solar City is nothing but rebranded Chinese crap.

Operating solar industry without subsidies?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean the government doesn't need to throw billions of dollars into a renewable energy industry to keep it alive? I didn't know that was possible!

Don't you dare try anything like this in the USA or we'll surround your corporate headquarters with torches and pitchforks!!!

Re:Operating solar industry without subsidies?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you're Obama and want to help cronies at Solyndra, no, you don't need subsidy (anymore, and for a long time now).

Re: Operating solar industry without subsidies?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's rich coming from a supporter of the biggest cronie of them all.

And the other shoe drops.

[Chas]

China pretty much has cornered production on solar panels.

Now they'll start ratcheting up the pricing.

Re:And the other shoe drops.

[Anonymous Coward]

sure, sure and the air in beijing will improve with rising solar panel prices.
if they want normal air and make solar panels unaffordable (in comparison to fossil fuels) then they will have to rephrase
the law on "one couple=one child" to define ONE child as having two legs, or two arms, or two heads ^_^

Re:And the other shoe drops.

[PPH]

Now is the time to buy a house in California before the solar roof prices drive everyone to live in tents in the city parks.

Re:And the other shoe drops.

[Chas]

I wouldn't live in California if you paid me.

The government is insane there.
The regulations there are even MORE insane.
Earthquakes.
Home/property prices are even MORE insane.
Areas like SF are inundated with homeless, drug needles and piles of shit.

Aw hell naw.

Re: Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free,

[PopeRatzo]

There isn't a single solar panel manufacturing company in Canada. 100% of the solar panels with a Canadian company name are nothing but rebranded Chinese garbage panels.

Heliene Solar is based in Ontario and manufactures its panels in Miinnesota.

https://www.heliene.com/

Re:Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free, m

[drinkypoo]

At some point the buyer will go for a solution with mirrors and molten salt. instead.

A PV farm is lick and stick, routine maintenance and panel cleaning aside. A molten salt concentrator array needs all the same kinds of maintenance, and more besides, and if it goes wrong it can also be a serious problem. It's got more moving parts, liquids, etc. and all that has to be inspected on a regular basis.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats weird because from the time I bought my panels two years ago they have gone up in price 30%

Re:Huh?

[HiThere]

IIRC, the last time I investigated solar most of the cost was installation, not materials.

Re:Huh?

[Aighearach]

This story is about the domestic prices in China, not international market prices.

Yup

[WindBourne]

All those subsidies/dumping that China does to steal Western manufacturing is coming home. Solar City is going to have a heyday. They are ramping up production of efficient panels as well as their tiles. Hopefully, the rest of Western solar panels makers will do ok. Also, hopefully trump/europe will impose same same tariffs on any vehicles manufactured by Chinese companies that will attempt to dump on the west

Cheap now, EXPENSIVE later

[p51d007]

Disposal costs, government subsidies etc.

No that's verbatim what she said

[Crashmarik]

That's misrepresenting what she was saying. Simply it is easier to harvest heat from solar rather than electrical energy and it's far more efficient than generating electricity and then using it to heat water.

No that's verbatim what she said, she literally said to use solar thermal to replace a $2 immersion heater. She also literally said to use windmills for direct manufacturing.

Try looking at a real sawmill

[Crashmarik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Not someone's tourist trap

Re: Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free,

[Anonymous Coward]

So he is right. 100% of the solar panels are imported and rebranded.

Re: Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free,

[PopeRatzo]

No, he said 100% of the sloar panels are "rebranded Chinese garbage".

Heliene Solar is a Canadian company that makes its panels in the USA.

Dumping

[mauriceh]

This was simply dumping to dstroy competitors
Funded by China

Re:Dumping

[King_TJ]

Yep! Exactly. They tried to dump substandard quality panels on foreign markets like the USA, hoping they'd put the competition under. But ultimately, it didn't work and China is tired of paying so much to subsidize their manufacture, to keep selling them below their cost. A lot of the companies offering the "no money down solar loans/leases" were using the cheapest panels they could source from China, and people wound up with PV solar installations that degraded, only outputting 60% or so of their rated power production after only a few years of use.

That's one reason I insisted on buying my solar system outright, and paying more for SunPower branded equipment. It was all made in Canada instead of China, and produced at least 10% more power per square foot of panel than the average. That was important for me, because I only had a limited amount of roof space I could use for them. They also don't seem to have degraded much in performance so far. Maybe a few percent over when they were brand new, but hard to determine even that since the amount of sunlight isn't perfectly consistent from year to year.

Oh you people are so funny

[Crashmarik]

Thailand at night from space
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

https://www.google.com/search?...

Tell me how is that treehouse in the yard where you hide from your parents working out ?

Re:Oh you people are so funny

[Aighearach]

Wait, you thought outdoor lighting was the main source of electrical demand?!?! LOL

Well better that

[Crashmarik]

Than thinking people don't use power at night.

Re:Well better that

[Aighearach]

Except when you already know that that is the lowest load part of the day, then it shows that you're merely intellectually dishonest; you don't have an excuse, like the stupid guys do. You're just pure flamebait.

LOL Intellectually dishonest

[Crashmarik]

Coming from the man who said

Wait, you thought outdoor lighting was the main source of electrical demand?!?! LOL

Yeah all that lighting is because that's the only thing going on, and that's exactly what I was saying / sarcasm

Except when you already know that that is the lowest load part of the day, then it shows that you're merely intellectually dishonest; you don't have an excuse, like the stupid guys do. You're just pure flamebait.

What's your excuse ? Pretending that people don't use power at night or that a solar thermal system at your home for heating teais anything other than ridiculous

Face it, you aren't thinking about this. You're a zealot that reacts badly whenever it's pointed out the emperor has no clothes.

Re:LOL Intellectually dishonest

[angel'o'sphere]

Everybody knows that at night there is no sun and a PV panel does not work.
So you are flamebait dumbass, thats all.

As your parent tried to explain you unpolitely: the load curve is at night the lowest. Depending on country 40% of peak, or even 20% of peak: because everyone is sleeping ...

Even a dumbass like you knows that ... so why flaming around? To look smart? You failed.

Price is dictated by the ROI

[Gabest]

If it takes more than 10 years to break even, those solar cells will not sell at all. The price will always depend on the cost of electricity.

steal manufacturing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Declare a national emergency, America can't make enough steel. China stole it all.

America has had high import tarrifs on vehicles for decades, protectionism is nothing new to America. Heck just look at your farmers. It's enough to make the Japanese and French blush.

Re:steal manufacturing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey git. You are Caffeinated Bacon trolling again. Your pretence just is not working.
Did you pull your head out of the Bog? Apparently not. You continue to lie about everything.

Here is World banks simple average and it shows US way down at the bottom for 2017.
Here is Cato showing multiple averages and no matter which way it is done, the Yanks are down at the bottom
Go back to Xi. Your head is been banged so many times against the wall, that it is obvious that you are a bloody idiot.

Says the guy in "Dry Thailand"

[Crashmarik]

https://weather-and-climate.co...

Yeah 6 months without rain in one of the wettest countries on earth

Re:Says the guy in "Dry Thailand"

[angel'o'sphere]

Thailand is a big country.

If you want a weather report about where I live, try Nakhon Phanom or Sakon Nakhon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

"Yeah 6 months without rain in one of the wettest countries on earth" see, how easy you can make na idiot out of your self? What has the last recent 5 - 6 month to do with the other 6 month were we have rain season? Oh, up here the rain season is only 4 month ... dumbass.

That would be the Thailand where it doesn't rain

[Crashmarik]

https://weather-and-climate.co...

Gotta say though I love your ability to look at satellite imagery of your country lit up like a christmas tree and claim nobody is using power

Re:That would be the Thailand where it doesn't rai

[angel'o'sphere]

I never said nobody is using power.
I said in Germany night load, aka base load is around 40%.
And in Thailand it is lower.

So shove your satellite images where no one sees them, as you are obviously to dumb to draw conclusions from them :P

Sure

[Crashmarik]

Most people in Thailand don't need power at night

Must have been that other Angel'o'sphere
So many of you around.

Re:Sure

[angel'o'sphere]

You are mixing up street lights with people.

I'm often coming home late. Around 20:00 most people in my town are in bed ...

No idea about what you want to argue.

Cherry Picking by any other name

[Crashmarik]

Thailand is a big country.

So you picked a small part of a large country that isn't representative of the whole and accused me of making a dumbass of myself ?

Well you may be right, I did think that the fact life goes on after sunset would have been enough to make even the biggest idiot think twice. I had no idea I could be so wrong.

Re:Cherry Picking by any other name

[angel'o'sphere]

No, dumbass. You picked a small part of the country, namely the capital: Bangkok.

And probably you never looked on a map either. I live what is the equivalent of the "mid west" in America. Bangkok is the equivalent of Mami.

No idea why you are so stupid to answer more and more stupid answers to this thread. I'm here since 130 days consecutive since mid October ... since then we had about 3 days with rain. One day where it rained very long, perhaps even 6h. And two ... hm, was it three days? , where it rained less than an hour ... ten minutes after I stepped outside it was all dry again.

But who am I ... living here ... looking out of the window ... seeing what is going on ... versus an internet troll who is to stupid to use the internet.

Are you WindBourne?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be because you clearly didn't read your own links and are a liar.

Re: Are you WindBourne?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go ahead caffeinated Bacon. Call me windy. But you are lying again about those links. Unlike you, those were real data and show that US has lower tariff than even my nation, and much lower than yours.

Quit lying caffeinated.
You need to go back to doing Xi's knob.

Re: Are you WindBourne?

[Anonymous Coward]

Call me Caffeinated Bacon if it makes you feel better. You are just as wrong as Windy, (if you still pretend not to be him) and don't even get my country correct.
Words have meaning in English (maybe you are pretending to be European?). America is not at the bottom, as shown in your links...
Australia and New Zealand are down at the bottom.

EU auto tariffs of 10% and argue that those are much higher than the 2.5% tariffs for car imports to the U.S, but he won’t mention the 25% U.S. tariff on truck imports.

Even your link proves the original statement was correct, America has had high import tarrifs on vehicles for decades, protectionism is nothing new to America.
and

Taking all of these tariff figures into account, it can be hard to come up with a precise ranking, but you can see that New Zealand and Australia are the low tariff leaders. The U.S., EU, Canada, Japan, and Switzerland come next, clustered closely together.

US is in the middle.
Next time "Windy", read your own links and stop pretending they say what you want them to say.

You have actually been to Thailand ?

[Crashmarik]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Thailand's climate is influenced by monsoon winds that have a seasonal character (the southwest and northeast monsoon).[52]:2 The southwest monsoon, which starts from May until October is characterized by movement of warm, moist air from the Indian Ocean to Thailand, causing abundant rain over most of the country.[52]:2 The northeast monsoon, starting from October until February brings cold and dry air from China over most of Thailand.[52]:2 In southern Thailand, the northeast monsoon brings mild weather and abundant rainfall on the eastern coast of that region.[52]:2 Most of Thailand has a "tropical wet and dry or savanna climate" type (Köppen's Tropical savanna climate).[53] The south and the eastern tip of the east have a tropical monsoon climate.

Thailand is divided into three seasons.[52]:2 The first is the rainy or southwest monsoon season (mid–May to mid–October) which prevails over most of the country.[52]:2 This season is characterized by abundant rain with August and September being the wettest period of the year.[52]:2 This can occasionally lead to floods.[52]:4 In addition to rainfall caused by the southwest monsoon, the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ) and tropical cyclones also contribute to producing heavy rainfall during the rainy season.[52]:2 Nonetheless, dry spells commonly occur for 1 to 2 weeks from June to early July.[52]:4 This is due to the northward movement of the Intertropical Convergence Zone to southern China.[52]:4 Winter or the northeast monsoon starts from mid–October until mid–February.[52]:2 Most of Thailand experiences dry weather during this season with mild temperatures.[52]:2:4 The exception is the southern parts of Thailand where it receives abundant rainfall, particularly during October to November.[52]:2 Summer or the pre–monsoon season runs from mid–February until mid–May and is characterized by warmer weather.[52]:3

Re:You have actually been to Thailand ?

[angel'o'sphere]

Unfortunately your wiki article is wrong ...

The northeast monsoon, starting from October until February brings cold and dry air from China over most of Thailand.[52]:2
This actually what we have at the moment :D dry wind ... since october, dumbass.

But it is not called monsoon ... no idea who wrote the article. Monsoon means rain season ... depending on where you are it starts around august and ends around december.

If you would read the stuff you quote, you would clearly see: we are in the dry/cold seasons since october ... hence: no rain since 5 month.

How stupid are you actually? Can not even read the stuff you copy/paste?

Sure they are

[Crashmarik]

The same way you are at quarter past midnight your time engaging in argument on an electrically powered computer, but in the dark of course for you.

Re:Sure they are

[angel'o'sphere]

And a computer as mine, how much power does it use?
Why do you try to prove you are an idiot, I don't get it.

The factory next door with over 1000 workers was closed ... I think the power it drew before dwarfs my computer, but perhaps you know better ...

All the shops are closed ... and at midnight (I was actually sleeping at midnight already) 90% of the Thai in rural Thailand are sleeping, should be a no brainer. But no, it is not, as you like to argue about stuff, you have no clue about.

Everyone but you is wrong

[Crashmarik]

https://www.statravel.co.nz/th...

https://www.weatheronline.co.u...

Re:Everyone but you is wrong

[angel'o'sphere]

What is about those links?
Something wrong? Do they need prove reading?

Re:Everyone but you is wrong

[Crashmarik]

What is about those links?
Something wrong? Do they need prove reading?

Well maybe not, but they do prove proper use of pronouns and prepositions.

If you repeat that often enough you might believe

[Crashmarik]

You might want to try positive affirmations though tell yourself your smart.

It just might work better than saying stupid things

All the shops are closed ... and at midnight (I was actually sleeping at midnight already) 90% of the Thai in rural Thailand are sleeping

When the majority of the Thai population is urban.

So while your factory is shut down the night clubs in Bangkok are going full bore.

But then again keep on replying on your magic computer that doesn't use power, with all the other people who aren't in bed by 8:00 pm ?

Around 20:00 most people in my town are in bed .

LOL do you go around tucking them in

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[angel'o'sphere]

So while your factory is shut down the night clubs in Bangkok are going full bore.
And in comparision to a factory, how much power does a night club use?

LOL do you go around tucking them in
Unfortunately not, my GF/wife does not allow me.
However when we come home from the super market (which closes at 20:00) we pass many many houses.

What is wrong with you? Is your telepathy failing you? You live on the other side of the planet and believe to know more than one who is living at the place you are scrying? Perhaps you should seek mental help instead of googleing weather sites you don't comprehend.

Hint: north to south Thailand is about 2000km long ... east to west about 1100km ... the weather or climate at my place is not the "average" of Thailand. Every region has its specific own climate ... and outside of towns people go up around 6:00 or 5:30 even and go to bed around 20:00 or 22:00

And the sleeping patterns have only a little part to do with energy consumption. If you ever had dug into energy production/consumption you knew that.

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[Crashmarik]

My telepathy ?

I'm not the guy claiming to know the habits, of everyone in the town where I live let alone the entire country.

I am also not the guy who thinks the area where I live represents the entire world

Most of all I am not the guy, who somehow thinks solar isn't an intermittent power source that isn't available more often that it is.

Oh and because I am kind I will answer and earlier question of yours. You wanted to know why you kept coming back to this thread ? It's because you are so horribly wrong on the big question. Hell you were even more wrong than the guy who proposed the vacuum flywheels and parabolic trackers to replace a two dollar immersion heater that would still work better. His stuff was possible if completely impractical. You have an insane need to deny reality

That isn't telepathy that's observation as you have done it in every post you have made here.

Re: Hey man, the sun is like supposed to be free,

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol canadian solar maybe a chinese company but they are a world class tier 1 manufacturer. You are just spouting some racist crap

Re: Good thing Chine does not have any heavy indus

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh i can fabricate it with my cheap chinese power electronics. Good luck with your stagnant 1960s ee education

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[angel'o'sphere]

I am also not the guy who thinks the area where I live represents the entire world
Yes you are.

I pointed out to some GP post that *here* we have since about 5 month sunshine from 6:30 to 18:00 *every day* except 3 or 4.

So his brain dead idea about intermittent sunshine is bollocks.

You jumped in with the the stupid idea that people/countries use at night the same amount of power as they do at day, they don't.

And that is true FOR EVERYWHERE ON THE WORLD.

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[Crashmarik]

I pointed out to some GP post that *here* we have since about 5 month sunshine from 6:30 to 18:00 *every day* except 3 or 4.

Yes that 18:00 to 6:30 doesn't count for you ?

Oh and now are people in bed by 6:00 PM ? Not using the AC, or the Heater, The Television, The Stove , Charging The Electric Car.

Oh wait, not only are those things you that you need constant power sources for, they are things that trying to use solar directly for won't work at all. They are all electric.

Dude, you don't need to argue with me, you need to see a priest and get a religion you actually realize you have.

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[angel'o'sphere]

The point is not what the PEOPLE do but what the COUNTRY does, and as industry and business is closed, the power consumption is roughy half at night.

How dumb are you?

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[Crashmarik]

The point is not what the PEOPLE do but what the COUNTRY does , and as industry and business is closed, the power consumption is roughy half at night.

How dumb are you?

O"rlly ? Tell me oh enlightened wizard of electricity is 2/3rds (the correct answer by the way) greater or less than zero ? And just where does that 2/3rds come from when your non intermittent power source isn't there ? Oh and lets not talk about the months when it isn't clear and the days are shorter.

Once again go see a priest. Get a religion you will at least understand you have instead of one that has you thinking you have none. That way you will at least stop bringing shame on yourself and your family.

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[angel'o'sphere]

At night I don't need solar power, plain and simple ... unless I produce > 50% of my power by solar and can store the excess power ... wich is unlikely.

Go google what a "load curve" is ...

You probably the dumbest hobby electrics expert on the internet.

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[Crashmarik]

At night I don't need solar power, plain and simple ... unless I produce > 50% of my power by solar and can store the excess power ... wich is unlikely.

And you don't need it in winter when the days are shorter and you need more to heat your home, and you don't need it in the rainy season aka the monsoon season in your country, and you don't need at night when you are in the hospital and your factory doesn't need it all day every day.

But really you are right you never need solar, because every country in the world has built their power grids around always available dispatchable power not intermittent sources. Go figure.

Get thee to a nunnery

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[angel'o'sphere]

We talked about Thailand, especially the place where I live, Isan.

So: no we don't have in winter significantly shorter days. The rainy season has most of the time extremely fixed time periods during wich it is raining. So if it rains today from 16:00 till 18:30, it will do "the same" tomorrow.

because every country in the world has built their power grids around always available dispatchable power not intermittent sources.
No, they have not.
Examples:
UK, Denmark, Iceland and Germany ... perhaps you missed the news.

Modern grids are completely the opposite you claim. They are constructed around intermittent sources, because those you can't control ... pretty dumb of you. Probably you wanted to say something like that but are full with hate that you by accident reversed your words.

So, did you meanwhile google the "load profile" of your "control area" of "your grid"? You know during which time of the day you have peaks and what the difference between peak load and base load is, in rough percentages?

Bother me again, when you have figured those basics.

Ah, regarding your previous post (not relevant for the difference between peak and base load): here no one has AC. Does not make sense. The only days where AC would be helpful are perhaps 30 - 45 days when we switch from hot season to rainy season. The hot season is not hot enough, not humid enough, and the cold season/dry season is: fucking cold at night, and nearly never tops 31C around 13:00 .... Stoves ... at night? Yeah, Thai people eat all the time, that is true. But they don't cook all night. And not on electric stoves anyway.

If you want to argue about electricity: get a clue, stop dreaming. Or better stop it ... you don't look like one who is interested in getting a clue.

Re:If you repeat that often enough you might belie

[Crashmarik]

We talked about Thailand, especially the place where I live, Isan.

No you specifically talked about that. I talked about the world in general

UK, Denmark, Iceland and Germany ... perhaps you missed the news.

UK gets 21 % of it's power from nuclear
http://www.world-nuclear.org/i...
Iceland gets most of it's power from geothermal. (Not solar Not intermittent and Dispatchable)
Denmark and Germany import electricity from other countries and still have the highest electric rates in Europe likely the world at 41 cents per KWH last I looked.

Not even bothering to read the rest of your rant
You're a religious maniac and you don't even understand it. Get thee to a nunnery