H-1B Visa Lottery Will Now Favor Masters, Doctorate Degree Holders (sfchronicle.com)

McGruber shares a report from The San Francisco Chronicle: The Department of Homeland Security announced a rule change Wednesday that will transform the lottery that decides who gets the 85,000 H-1B visas granted to for-profit companies every year. Previously, an initial lottery granted 20,000 visas only to those holding advanced degrees granted by U.S. institutions -- master's degrees or doctorates -- and then a general lottery granted 65,000 visas to all qualified applicants. The Department of Homeland Security switched the order of these lotteries, it said in a notice of the final rule change, which will bolster the odds for highly educated foreign nationals. The change reduces the likelihood that people with just a bachelor's degree will win in the general lottery, said Lisa Spiegel, an attorney at Duane Morris in San Francisco and head of the firm's immigration group. The program shift could hurt technology staffing companies, also known as outsourcers, who have a reputation for flooding the lottery with applications. Three Indian firms -- Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys and Wipro -- often account for a majority of the H-1B applications, an analysis of government data shows.

Comments

masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[TheGratefulNet]

if its from various overseas countries.

its well-known that many cultures encourage rote memorization and that passes for 'learning'.

is THAT what we really want? have you not seen enough of that from people you work with?

this is bullshit and we all know it.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is America even taking these in instead of training their own?

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

It's absolutely nuts to train the smartest people in the world at the best schools in the world... and then ask them to kindly leave.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[zlives]

but we like the money they bring. because in the end its mostly about cost of education and cost of well educated employees that could afford that education.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

The description above clearly states "those holding advanced degrees granted by U.S. institutions", so not advanced degrees from overseas countries.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[hey!]

Well, you shouldn't be able to get a doctorate from an accredited research university just on rote learning.

You shouldn't be able to get a master's degree or even a bachelor's either, but programs vary in quality. Now I worked on place where management was keen on Indian H-1Bs, often with master's and occasionally PhDs. The impression I got is that a masters' is much more common in India; I believe it is a prerequisite at some Indian universities for PhD candidates. Anyhow, the quality of those people were all over the place, from everything you could wish for, to one guy who was exactly what you're talking about: he had the UML of the entire Gang of Four book memorized and could give a convincing-sounding chalk talk about any of them, but in fact he just had a prodigious memory. There's no way he should have qualified to *enter* an master's program, much less get out with a degree.

I don't blame Indian culture; I've worked with Indians I'd hire again in a heartbeat. I blame certain US universities that have converted the popularity of masters's degrees with Indians into low quality cash-cow programs -- usually not in CS, but in the fuzzier and less mathematically rigorous "IT" field. If someone came to me with an MS/IT I'd automatically treat it the same as a bachelor's, just from my experience with graduates of such programs. The good people coming out of those programs were good going into them.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

It's absolutely not worth the societal cost of driving our education costs up to the moon if we aren't going to retain these people. Either let them in or don't, but don't make our local education market for all into a global market for the elite without realizing some benefit.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[jrumney]

It does say "granted by US institutions", but as far as protecting against the mail-order degree mill industry goes, I don't think that helps as some of the worst offenders are US based.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans aren't smart enough to take in the training and too lazy to do the work.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

For the price of an H1B.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans are smarter than the rest. The problem is, they have to pay for their education in American dollars and companies want cheap graduates....because they turn more profit for them.

The immigrant door needs to be shut until the rest of the world gets their curriencies and standards of living up to or past the US'. Because if it isn't closed, everybody but the company heads gets exploited.

https://youtu.be/LPjzfGChGlE

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[alvinrod]

Why the hell wouldn't you take highly skilled people with advanced degrees? The average American isn't going to earn a Ph.D. and less than half of the population aged 25-29 has a bachelor's degree. The notion that if we just trained everyone that we'd be able to solve all of our problems is nonsense. There are limits to what a person is capable of and not everyone can become an engineer, doctor, lawyer, etc. So if we want more of those job positions, we're going to have to import them.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[DNS-and-BIND]

How are their home countries ever going to get better? If all their good people flee, they're going to stay stuck where they are and never progress. They badly need their educated people and it's a crime for America to rob them like this. America is already bloated and fat with wealth, it can afford it.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Europe's culture and education are far superior than the US. Americans are, quite frankly, not the brightest folks around; and rapidly getting dumber for getting less white.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[chihowa]

I can't tell if you're joking or not, but competition on the supply side results in lower prices. Competition on the demand side drives prices up.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[sg_oneill]

its well-known that many cultures encourage rote memorization and that passes for 'learning'.

1) A PhD or Masters is not a course. Its a research program. There are "Masters by Courseworks", which is slightly different, but generally when someone is doing a Masters or PhD its because they are researchers. And unless someones got a sneaky phoneline to God, theres nothing to "rote" memorize.

2) I hate to break it to you, but US Universities are not generally the highest categories. There are some, but the stats aren't great. 1.7% of US universities fit in the "Top 100", versus UK with 2.5% and Australia with 3.1% I should observe US figures are highly tainted by the proliferation of bogus universities (Liberty University, and other dodgy thinktank feeders). Sure you have things like Caltech or Stanford , but for every Caltech, you've got a hundred busted ass rural universities or "Praeger mail order university where you get a doctorate for declaring the world is flat" type places.

Don't be so arogant, and consider traveling.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Shaitan]

Because they are importing 85,000 people a year to dillute and reduce salaries in the US. It's all about avoiding paying fair wages.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Shaitan]

"Why the hell wouldn't you take highly skilled people with advanced degrees?"

For the most part these workers aren't being brought in for jobs that actually require a Masters or Ph.D. We don't want the most highly educated, we want the brightest and that is not the same thing.

"The average American isn't going to earn a Ph.D. and less than half of the population aged 25-29 has a bachelor's degree. "

Sounds like a great reason to make that possible without taking on tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt just to get a job any bright person could have done.

"The notion that if we just trained everyone that we'd be able to solve all of our problems is nonsense."

Sure. We could just stop laying off the existing workers. We lay off 80-100 thousand tech workers a year and now import 85,000 a year. This isn't rocket science.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

You think a PhD in whatever Indian who was considering living in the US will just throw up his hands and say, "Oh, well!"? He's not going home, even if America kicks him to the curb.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

No. A free market would result in the most efficient market, which in general means lower prices. In this case, we do not have a free market - instead, we have a distorted market where immigration rules, practical limits on movement of people, and direct government subsidy skew things wildly. If it were a simple matter of not getting into Harvard, shrugging, and then attending the University of Delhi, that would be one thing. That's not a practical scenario, so instead you have tons of foreign money and student population coming in and comparatively little flowing out. Worse, the money and students flowing in are high-performing and mostly paying full sticker price - it's not a representative sampling coming in, it's the cream of the crop with elite-level money. No worries, though, the US government will throw thousands in direct subsidy and loan guarantees so that locals can still go, and this in turn will further distort the market.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[quenda]

It's absolutely nuts to train the smartest people in the world at the best schools in the world... and then ask them to kindly leave.

The British have done well by educating many of the next generation of world leaders, for centuries.
It helps develop the economy of their home countries, creates an elite that are sympathetic to western values and interests, and facilitates trade.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[subie]

The world is round and you are wearing blinders.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[quenda]

Oh boy! We can be the next UK!

You already are. But it remains to be seen if the US stays as the foremost global power as long as the UK did, or handles the transition as well.
Though I'm sure the US will do better than Portugal or Russia, post empire.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[AndrewFlagg]

this has been going on for all too long. time for all those fake master's degrees and doctorate degrees that don't stand up to comparison or equivalence scrutiny. time to get out my handy dandy degree certificate maker with foil crimping tool and give myself a few doctorate degrees from schools that cannot be verified.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[larryjoe]

A PhD or Masters is not a course. Its a research program.

For master's programs, it depends. It's possible to obtain an MS degree without a thesis by just passing courses. No research is required for those degrees.

I hate to break it to you, but US Universities are not generally the highest categories. There are some, but the stats aren't great. 1.7% of US universities fit in the "Top 100", versus UK with 2.5% and Australia with 3.1% I should observe US figures are highly tainted by the proliferation of bogus universities (Liberty University, and other dodgy thinktank feeders). Sure you have things like Caltech or Stanford , but for every Caltech, you've got a hundred busted ass rural universities or "Praeger mail order university where you get a doctorate for declaring the world is flat" type places.

Don't be so arogant, and consider traveling.

The percentage of US universities in the "Top 100", whatever that means, is somewhat low due to the large number of universities. It's an advantage of the US system that there are so many universities. In contrast to many other countries, getting into a US university is not that hard but matriculation into a school, whatever reputation it may have, guarantees nothing, and hard work is still required. This proliferation of universities grants opportunities to disadvantaged demographic groups that don't exist in many other countries.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[serviscope_minor]

It's absolutely not worth the societal cost of driving our education costs up to the moon if we aren't going to retain these people.

Yes but, it's entirely possible to retain these people without driving the societal cost up. The loans which people can't escape through bankruptcy essentially serve as a massive source of free money into the system. That's what's driving up the prces incessantly.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[hazardPPP]

if its from various overseas countries.

its well-known that many cultures encourage rote memorization and that passes for 'learning'.

Seems like you "rote memorized" the letters of the alphabet without really learning what they mean...or have not read the article or the summary.

Previously, the first lottery awarded 20,000 visas to people with graduate degrees earned in the US. Then came the general lottery awarding 65,000 visas for which people with just bachelor's degrees, and with any higher degree regardless of where it was earned, could apply.

Now this has been switched around. That means that those 20,000 applicants with American graduate degrees are going to be in the general pool of applicants and many (all?) of them are going to be among the 65,000 "general" H1B visas granted. This will reduce the amount of visas granted to people just holding undergraduate degrees and those educated outside of the US. That is, it is doing exactly what you would like it to do.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[jouassou]

I believe it is a prerequisite at some Indian universities for PhD candidates.

My impression that this is the case everywhere but the US/UK. In Europe, a Master's degree is usually a prerequisite for even applying to a PhD program. We have some integrated Bachelor+Master programs, but few integrated Master+PhD programs.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Highdude702]

I prefer the green PCB. There is always less cut, and it doesn't give you a headache in the morning. The solder traces are more noticeable though.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[AHuxley]

Its stops the people who do to even have the rote memorization skills to get past their own nations exams from getting a US visa.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[DNS-and-BIND]

That's selfish and he should think of the needs of his people. They'll never get any better if their highly educated leave. But you like other countries poor, don't you?

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[houghi]

Whe have to figure out how England and Wales can swap places with Canada.

That way Europe gets Canada (We have experience with muli-lingual politics inside one country) and keep Scotlands and Northern Ireland. And England and Wales get to be state 51 and 52 and can restart using Inches and the like.

That should be make everybody happy. I seriously see no downsides.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[bickerdyke]

The immigrant door needs to be shut until the rest of the world gets their curriencies and standards of living up to or past the US'

You probably meant "living up to the past of the US"...

US has peaked and you're now worried about shutting the "immigration door" cause you're afraid that people now immigrating to US jobs already have "lived up or past" US standards. That is for work visas. But as long as you keep it open for investors visas....

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[bickerdyke]

With the best degree that money can buy.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[bickerdyke]

Any citation for that?

That seems to be a part of the same misconception I see with the CBP-guys at the airport every time I visit. They just seem unable to grasp the idea that people want to go home again after their vacation... Like "going on holiday" was a completely novel concept to them. By now, I usually explain it to them extra slowly.....

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[bickerdyke]

That's probably because at least in Germany, before the Bologna reform, the "Diplom" was the default when going to university.

At about High-School level school system branched into three and you had to finish the most difficult branch (or get 1-3 additional years at school if you finished the lower branches) to get access to university. And at university, you did your 8 or 10 semester to get a university degree. ("Diplom")

Enter the Bologna reforms. To become internationally (both within and outside the EU) universities were urged to switch to Bachelor/Master degrees from the "Diplom" degrees.

So a combined Bachelor+Master program would be nothing more than what would be compared to the old university degree.

I consider myself to be lucky to have finished university before that switch and got one of the old academic titles... People with a Bachelor still get asked why they haven't finished university...

tl;dr:

A joke told by some of my university professors: "He has a Bachelor Degree? You mean he's a certified university dropout?"

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[bickerdyke]

In contrast to many other countries, getting into a US university is not that hard

Basically, it's a matter of money. Which may be part of the whole problem.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

Many indeed do have designs on eventually going home, but few actually do. According to this article, only around 1800 people gave up their US green card or citizenship in 2011... and that doesn't even mean they necessarily "went home", just that for some reason they left the US - presumably for good.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

Yes, we're also giving affluent people the boot. Makes sense...

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

Now I've heard everything - letting individuals travel wherever they please to seek out a better life is "selfish".

Extra points for thinking that highly-educated elites returning to their poor countries will help rather than exploit the poor. They have a gigantic wealth disparity because that's how their wealthy have the system rigged, not because the sons of the rich people are taking tech jobs in America.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

It's not one or the other - both massive foreign competition for spots (demand competition) and government subsidy add to the problem.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Hodr]

iI hate to break it to you, but US Universities are not generally the highest categories. There are some, but the stats aren't great. 1.7% of US universities fit in the "Top 100", versus UK with 2.5% and Australia with 3.1%.

This stat is absolutely meaningless by itself. The only thing it tells you is that all three have universities in the top 100.

A quick google search shows 130 universities in the UK, and 43 in Australia.

The US has 2,618 accredited (non-diploma mill) Universities (per google).

Coincidentally, 1.7% us 2,618 is 44.5, or more than the total number of universities in Australia.

So if you point was that if you go to a random university in one of these places, your chances of getting a "top 100" university are higher...okay sure. The implication here might be that the average university student in one of these locations gets a better education than the average university student in the US, and that's may be true (would have to track much more than just the top 100 schools to determine this answer)

But if the question is which country has the "best schools" (and by implication, which country would have the "best educated" people), that would be the US. At least for now.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[pnutjam]

TFA says it's favoring applicants with degrees from U.S. Universities, so you concerns are unfounded.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

America, by itself doesn't want them, as we have more than enough people, and we have colleges and skills churning out CS majors by the legions.

H-1Bs are wanted by business because of pure money and power. A developer will wind up with a $40k salary, who normally gets 80-100k, and there is also the control aspect. If a H-1B gets fired, they get deported, so they wind up working 100+ hour weeks and putting up with malfeasance that no US citizen/resident would tolerate.

The H-1B program is basically a violation of national sovereignty for business profits.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[bickerdyke]

Well that's at least a number, but probably not comparable. If you're getting a green card or citizenship you usually already have made up your mind that you want to stay in the US permanently.

Yes, for a good job I may be inclined to even move to the US, but it's not the other way round as I think people often think: That I would endure any H1B wage slavery and abuse just to get a chance to live in the US. (But then, I'm from an overall politically and economically stable and prospering country, so it's easy for me to make that joke. But that doesn't make much of a difference if the CBP guy has no clue that something like this exists outside America.)

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[parkinglot777]

Yes but, it's entirely possible to retain these people without driving the societal cost up. The loans which people can't escape through bankruptcy essentially serve as a massive source of free money into the system.

Could you please elaborate the boldface part ("these people")? Who are they? Foreign students or Americans? Also, when you are talking about student loan in America, there are a few way to avoid paying it (some people do). One easiest way is to have multiple SSNs (and I know some people who have them).

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[strikethree]

The description above clearly states "those holding advanced degrees granted by U.S. institutions", so not advanced degrees from overseas countries.

Holy shit! If they earned their degrees in America, why the fuck do they have to go through a lottery at all?! We should be offering those folks residency, not temp visas. WTF is going on here?

We don't need H1-B abuse, but sending away grads just seems... insane? No, it is the chair warmers that should be in the lottery (they shouldn't even be here), not graduates from American univerisites.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[parkinglot777]

That doesn't mean there aren't diploma Mills in the US.

Don't talk about my Devry University where I got my M.S. and University of Phoenix where I got my Ph.D. please!

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[KlomDark]

You don't know what a Jiz SOCk is? ;)

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[parkinglot777]

But that doesn't mean you can't apply for Master+Ph.D. program form EE as the grandparent said. The Master+Ph.D. program seems to be offered by most (if not all) universities in the U.S. You are required to graduate from Master degree program first, and then you would automatically be qualified for Ph.D. program in the field/major you are in without the need to apply for the program again. In other words, it is easier to get into a Master program, and then you need to show the university that you are a good student to be kept on Ph.D. program.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[acceleriter]

Beat me to it. The stuff you've got to watch out for is the blue.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL....hilarious.

America is barely "developing nation" status now.

The only reason anyone from one of the advanced nations would go to work in the US is the same as the reason for them going to work in any other developing nation...outrageous profit.

If you're only talking $200-300k/year...pfffft...why bother ?

It's better to stay in a nation that has advanced healthcare and better standards of living, where you're not rubbing shoulders with 100 million people that are too poor to even go to the dentist.

I can see the appeal for the peasants in India or SE Asia, but for the developed nations going to the US is a significant step down.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[bluefoxlucid]

Rote memorization is the foundation of memory. It's memorization by repeat exposure.

People who study don't simply learn the ins and outs of a system because they didn't memorize it. You learn the ins and outs because you're learning how it works. That exposure repeatedly brings certain facts to mind, which takes way too much memory, and so those facts become readily-accessible by deep association.

In other words: after you've derived the formula for measuring a pyramid 500 times because you know the calculus for the integration of progressively-smaller cross sections, you stop doing all that because your brain sees a pyramid or a cone and immediately says V=bh/3. You can forget the derivation and still remember that, since it's burned into your memory.

The ability to rapidly access this information allows you to do more-complex things. Rote memorization is the basis of strong arithmetic education, for example: by memorizing single-digit addition and multiplication tables, you gain the ability to perform complex multi-digit addition, multiplication, and division in your head--after practicing the correct procedures. Addition eventually becomes full-scope memorization, since each calculation produces a consistent result and you eventually memorize every pair of addends and their sum anyway, allowing you to add numbers faster than you can enter them into a calculator.

In my district, we used to teach addition and subtraction by counting. This resulted in generations of adults who will look at numbers and begin counting on their fingers. 16 + 5 = "17 18 19 20 21". The new method of "Friendly Numbers" invokes a preprocessing stage of 15+5+1 to give 5+5=10 and 20+1, which requires surveying the space first and then computing 6-5 just to begin.

The individual who has the {6,4} pair and {4,1} pair memorized will carry out 5-4=1 and emit 21, although eventually they just see 6+5=11 because they've done that one a thousand times and the pairs here are a two-step pair. This leads to computations like 475 + 915 + 3718 reading immediately as 4+9+7 => 13 + 7 => 20 => 50, 7+1+1 => 9 => 509, 5+5+8 => 10+8 => 18 => 5108. The whole computation is a rote action.

Surgeons need to know the inside of a body like the back of their hand. That's a lot of rote memorization. When something strange happens, they have hundreds of thousands of facts at-hand that they can then rapidly combine to analyze what is going on and how to respond. They don't sit there and begin enumerating the situation and discussing possibilities with staff, breaking out into groups to work on the problem for 10 minutes; they react before they're even aware of what they're doing. They couldn't do that without an enormous cache of rote-memorized knowledge.

This is always the case with foundational knowledge. When you step into what is called "skills", you need to learn the application of knowledge. So, for example, the ability to rapidly compute arithmetic only requires knowing the technique; the ability to investigate algebra requires understanding the mathematical relationships which make the rapid arithmetic technique possible.

When you get to algebra, you can learn to operate the pythagorean theorem and the quadratic equation. We can teach you about conic sections to help you understand how all of this works; however, when you sit down to compute things, you'll need equations.

You can derive these equations from your understanding of conic sections...if you can remember the foundational math that lets you then derive a path to the quadratic equation, or one of the other equations. If you can't, you will fail. Something has to be memorized by rote. Even then, it's quite slow (I know: this is how I did math my whole life).

If, on the other hand, you have rote-memorized all of your equations, you can approach a problem of geometry by citing all the relationships you see--you can cite that something is a con

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Keick]

It's absolutely nuts to train the smartest people in the world at the best schools in the world... and then ask them to kindly leave.

I used to hold that same opinion, but I no longer do. Probably the best way to improve the impoverished of foreign countries, is the overall improvement of their own economies. We can send foreign aid all we want, but it's just a band-aid. But by training and re-injecting their own countryman back into their economy, we are actually helping them more than money could ever. And the better off their economies are, the less likely wars are going to be, and will afford more opportunities to improve trade.

Who.what is more motivated to fix a countries major issues (poverty, curruption, infrastructure)? Millions of dollars in food/equipment, or engineers with a native love for their fellow man?

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

By and large, these guys are elites being trained to do elite stuff. If they go back home, they are likely to remain in the elite class and are not likely to address the systemic issues which plague these developing countries with such high income inequality.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

That would sting a lot more if people weren't lining up to get in here.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

You call me a "libtard" and you are the one trying to use the government to restrict people's movements while micromanaging the economy. Re-examine your so-called "ideology" and reasons you think you hate liberals.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MightyYar]

I work in tech in the US. I'm American by birth. I work with a lot of foreign colleagues. Most have either already gotten their citizenship or are on that path. Some grumble that they would like to eventually go home, but they are "stuck" once they have kids who grow up as Americans and their wives get a taste of working professionally in a country where they aren't expected to keep the home. A handful have gone back... mostly for job opportunities, but sometimes it's for compulsory military service or an elderly parent who has fallen ill, etc.

They would be in roughly the same situation if they had gone to Europe - it's one thing to move when you are young and unattached. Money, wives and kids have a way of anchoring you in a place.

I don't doubt that H1B visas are abused, but it is very hard to find American applicants for tech positions... and no wonder! In engineering school, more than half of the class was foreign. If Americans want to fill tech positions with Americans, then we need to be more enthusiastic about science and technology. Blaming the foreigners is predictable human scapegoating. Without the foreigners I work with, this particular American company would be much less competitive and we'd lose out to our Chinese and Japanese competition.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Because companies refuse to give the time and money for training!

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Marxist Hacker 42]

And Europe's standard of living is half what it is in the United States

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[mapkinase]

Because Americans are en masse stupid lazy entitled pieces of shit.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[thegarbz]

H-1Bs are wanted by business because of pure money and power.

H-1Bs are wanted by CS businesses for pure money and power. In the meantime regardless of what you think there are actually plenty of fields in the USA that have actual worker shortages which can't be fixed in a matter of a couple of months.

The H-1B program is basically a violation of national sovereignty for business profits.

hahahahah. Yeah right. That's why the program is entirely within the control of your supposedly violated sovereign state. I've heard a lot of bullshit about H-1Bs, but this one is truly in a class of it's own.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[dougdonovan]

degrees mean $.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[kenh]

Are we going to now see gaming the system right under the TRump administrations nose?

Right, because the H-1B visa system was never famed under previous administrations.

The fact that an advanced degree isn't comparable to the same advanced degree from a domestic university isn't really important. The quality of domestic degrees are not comparable between domestic universities, and passing college classes by rote memorization isn't a phenomenon unique to foreign students exclusively.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[MooseTick]

"Americans are smarter than the rest."

Where do you get this "fact" that you state as if it were undeniably true? While I agree that higher education in some countries is sub-standard compared to the rest of the world, I'm not even sure how you could prove this. You'd have to define "smarter". Is that more people with degrees, Nobel prizes, inventions, research papers, higher graduation rates (and at what level), winning competitions, speak "English" better, or is smarter something else?

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, if you mean the mean average. America loses in the both the median and mode figure averages though.

9 people making a dollar and one making $491 averages to $50/each. Europe is more like 9 making $30 and one making $130, for an average of $30/ea.

Where would you rather be? Tip: You are not the outlier.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[sg_oneill]

For master's programs, it depends. It's possible to obtain an MS degree without a thesis by just passing courses. No research is required for those degrees.

.....which is what I said a sentence or two later. "Masters by coursework". Your MBA type programs. These aren't really postgraduate per se, and the fact they are also called "Masters" is I suspect an artefact of the somewhat long and arcane history behind University accreditation namings (Ie why all doctors , except medical doctors, are doctors of "Philosophy". Well, because until around 100 or so years ago, most degrees where in philosophy, specialising in Maths/Physics/Chemistry/etc all of which are branches of philosophy, historically (but widely not seen to be now due to these being broken out into separate degrees once they outgrew their status as "branches"), a fact uneducated critics of philosophy would do well to remind themselves of)

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[serviscope_minor]

Could you please elaborate the boldface part ("these people")? Who are they? Foreign students or Americans?

You do realise I was specifically quoting the person I was replying to? I'm pretty sure from the context he means the foreign students. As in we can retain foreign students without fucking things up for Americans. The sentiment doesn't really make sense if you substitute "Americans" in there since there's not a problem with mass emigration of educated Americans.

Also, when you are talking about student loan in America, there are a few way to avoid paying it (some people do). One easiest way is to have multiple SSNs (and I know some people who have them).

That doesn't soud legal.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[sarren1901]

Well that $1 must go pretty far, because my wife and I make a measly 93k a year but we still have a mortgage (just a townhouse but its ours), two car payments, zero credit debt and vacation for at least one full week out of town/state. That doesn't count all the other weekend things.

Clearly the person with $491 lives in the rich part of town with a house on a hill and ten cars and a super model wife, but I think I'm doing pretty awesome.

In short, yes I think things are pretty good in American if you put in some basic effort.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[sarren1901]

Yeah, fraud is a great idea. We should all just commit fraud because that would save so much money. Fuck you.

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Thereby providing "Basic Effort"

Re: masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I was thinking more in costs than wages. Europe is a lot cheaper place to live Heck, the entire rest of the world is a cheaper place to live.

Dallas is fiction from the 1970s. Hollyweird is fiction. The reason Donald Trump got elected is because of that.

Re:masters, even doctorate, means nothing

[parkinglot777]

In the past during most work was on paper (30+ years ago), it was possible for some people to get multiple SSNs. These people kept the numbers. Generally, it is not legal. That's the major loophole in the system that allow those who have multiple SSNs to do many things (e.g. filing bankruptcy with no impacted) without being noticed in the past. the SS office should now be able to close that loophole with the current technology (digitized everything). However, I doubt that they are doing any investigation. Sadly...

Fuck those guys

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm all for immigration, but technology staffing companies can go fuck themselves.

Re:Fuck those guys

[AmiMoJo]

Seems like a simple fix would be to target tech staffing companies directly, e.g. placing a limit on the number of H1B workers per company as a percentage of the total, or having a H1B tax that is on an exponential curve.

Re:Fuck those guys

[AHuxley]

A company would just set up a front company to do that.
Set up 5 front companies to always get the "work" and fill with a quota of needed visa workers.
With each "new" job been totally not filled by anyone in the USA.

Re:Fuck those guys

[AmiMoJo]

Surely it can't be beyond the ability of your legal system to stop that kind of abuse?

Re:Fuck those guys

[AHuxley]

Nobody wants to fix it.
One side of politics sees migrants who get citizenship as future voters who will be thankful for getting instant citizenship approved.
Chain migration is then approved for more more voters/citizens who fully understand who let them enter the USA.

Another side of politics see lower cost workers who won't be interested in a union, can ask for more wages and who can be asked to return to their own nations if they every report problems.

The result is large legal movements of average and below average people with not real needed skills moving into a nation.
Citizenship is then granted for party political reasons.

The legal system is set up to allow an ad for a job to run and run so nobody in the USA will on average see such an ad in "print"/"online".
The company can then show it really tried hard to get a US worker, with the needed number of "ads" placed over time.
In local newspapers with a readership not often related in any way to the job offered.
Wait a while and place more ads. Show the gov the ads did not work. The number of times the ad was printed and average reader numbers seeing the ad.

No ability to find anyone in the USA as the ad placement proved.
Bring in a worker from another nation at a lower wage and who will not want join a union, no have as many rights.

Its all in the legal ability to create an ad that lists the needed work and that few people with the skills will ever find.
To have that ad stay in place for a long time and then to show the gov that that job can never be filled by anyone in the USA.
A way around any gov regulations :) The skilled US worker never have a chance to find the "hidden" local print ad.

favor

[fluffernutter]

Weren't H-1B's supposed to be to get people who had skills not available locally... which would be people with higher education? Now we have fallen back to simply 'favoring' those people.

Re:favor

[Anonymous Coward]

Weren't H-1B's supposed to be to get people who had skills not available locally... which would be people with higher education? Now we have fallen back to simply 'favoring' those people.

Why would a skills shortage in the US be related to higher education? We don't have enough schools or people using them?

The truth is there are many occupations that are very costly to businesses, and it would be beneficial for them to oversupply labor to bring costs down. That's not the same thing as not having enough people to do the work, they just say that.

Remember, they also say we have a shortage of skilled labor... but who's advocating to bus in more immigrants for those jobs? Spot the hypocrisy yet?

Either way, the smart thing to do would be looking at what is most beneficial to our economy, without sacrificing quality of life. If our country is growing, then why shouldn't we be bringing in plumbers as often as java developers? Maybe jobs associated with higher education contribute more towards economic growth?

Re:favor

[Solandri]

H-1Bs were created in response to a trend that research turned up. More and more U.S. college and university graduates were accepting jobs overseas, resulting in a net drain of skilled graduates out of the country. The idea behind the H-1B was to make it so that a well-educated foreigner could get a job in the U.S. more easily, countering that trend. Many other countries run a similar visa program for skilled workers. It also gave another option for foreign students who recently graduated from college in the U.S. to get a job here after their student visa expired. So more of those foreign students could stay in the U.S. after graduation instead of returning home, again countering the trend. The long-term idea being that the H-1B would be a first step towards U.S. citizenship (meaning the skilled worker stays here permanently).

Unfortunately the program got exploited by companies trying to (ab)use it to hire cheap foreign workers to replace Americans. Those job listings you've seen with a ridiculously specific list of required qualifications are mostly H-1B visa jobs. The listing was carefully crafted to exclude anyone from qualifying for the job except the person they wanted to get the H-1B visa for. Companies are required to advertise those jobs for a certain length of time to prove that no American is capable of doing the job. Adding skills or certifications which aren't really necessary for the job but possessed by the foreigner they have in mind for the visa is one of the tricks to pass the advertisement requirement without "finding" any qualified Americans.

Favoring graduate degree holders to receive H-1Bs is a step in the right direction. There are a lot fewer of them than graduates with a bachelors degree. And their field of research tends to be a lot more specialized and thus legitimately harder to find a qualifying American.

Re:favor

[hazardPPP]

H-1Bs were created in response to a trend that research turned up. More and more U.S. college and university graduates were accepting jobs overseas, resulting in a net drain of skilled graduates out of the country. The idea behind the H-1B was to make it so that a well-educated foreigner could get a job in the U.S. more easily, countering that trend.

If that was the idea, then the H-1B was (and is) a bad solution to that problem. Look north of the border for a more sensible approach.

The reason that the H-1B screws local workers over is that it's tied to a particular employer. So if you want to stay in (or come to) the US, you have to accept whatever conditions are offerred...and while on an H-1B, you basically have no leverage. This allows employers to depress wages.

Canada has a more sensible approach: there is something called a post-graduate work permit which automatically (well, you have to apply but you're 99% certain to get it) grants all foreign students the right to live and work in Canada after the end of their educational program, for a length of time equal to the length of that program. If you paid for some funny 6-12 month course just trying to get your foot in the door, you will get a 6-12 month work permit after that. If you did an academic Masters degree which is typically 2 years, you will get a 2 year work permit. If you did a PhD which typically lasts 4-5 years, you will get a 4-5 year work permit. There are no limits on your employment during this time and you can work for whoever you want (that will hire you). You can change as many jobs as you like (and can). Employees don't have the type of leverage over you that they have with an H-1B in the US. You can also use this time to apply for a PR (permanent residence permit). The more highly educated you are and the better your job, the more likely you are to get one. If your postgraduate permit expires while your PR application is being processed, it is automatically extended until you get a response for your PR application (provided you do not leave the country in the meantime).

Re:favor

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

All western nations are losing population. America needs immigrants to keep the population count up, and to pay taxes etc. We have two choices, we can follow the 19th century pattern, any poor wretched souls who yearn to breath free wash up on our shores we will take. Or you can take high quality well educated law abiding people from India and China with a job who will immediately contribute to the economy. People like me.

H1B is a good way to make sure we take the best, not the rejects from the old world.

Re:favor

[bickerdyke]

We have two choices, we can follow the 19th century pattern, any poor wretched souls who yearn to breath free wash up on our shores we will take

Wasn't that the approach that like "made America great to begin with"? What happend to the famous melting pot and the American dream?

Re:favor

[parkinglot777]

If that was the idea, then the H-1B was (and is) a bad solution to that problem. Look north of the border for a more sensible approach.

Actually, no. In the past (around 1990s), the visas were issued in order to entice foreign medical doctors/nurses to come into the U.S. and work. Then during the dot com, things changed (from medical to tech). Then recruiting companies/corporations found a way to abuse/exploit the visa. Now it is at the point where the visa is being used to hire cheap labor.

The intent of the program in Canada is not the same as in the U.S. It works in general, and I also prefer the Canadian version. Though, I doubt that the U.S. will change their version any time soon.

Re:favor

[thegarbz]

Weren't H-1B's supposed to be to get people who had skills not available locally... which would be people with higher education?

What makes you think only higher education skills are in shortage? I look at countries around the world and these are usually not in any meaningful shortage. You want shortage, look for teachers, look for plumbers and electricians, look for Americans willing to empty your garbage can in your office while you're at home having dinner.

Re:favor

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

The dream remains the same. The dreamers look different that's all.

Re:favor

[m00sh]

Weren't H-1B's supposed to be to get people who had skills not available locally... which would be people with higher education? Now we have fallen back to simply 'favoring' those people.

No. Experience matters more.

Person A with 4 years of vehicle design has more skills than someone who has a masters education.

Re:favor

[m00sh]

H-1Bs were created in response to a trend that research turned up. More and more U.S. college and university graduates were accepting jobs overseas, resulting in a net drain of skilled graduates out of the country. The idea behind the H-1B was to make it so that a well-educated foreigner could get a job in the U.S. more easily, countering that trend.

If that was the idea, then the H-1B was (and is) a bad solution to that problem. Look north of the border for a more sensible approach.

The reason that the H-1B screws local workers over is that it's tied to a particular employer. So if you want to stay in (or come to) the US, you have to accept whatever conditions are offerred...and while on an H-1B, you basically have no leverage. This allows employers to depress wages.

Canada has a more sensible approach: there is something called a post-graduate work permit which automatically (well, you have to apply but you're 99% certain to get it) grants all foreign students the right to live and work in Canada after the end of their educational program, for a length of time equal to the length of that program. If you paid for some funny 6-12 month course just trying to get your foot in the door, you will get a 6-12 month work permit after that. If you did an academic Masters degree which is typically 2 years, you will get a 2 year work permit. If you did a PhD which typically lasts 4-5 years, you will get a 4-5 year work permit. There are no limits on your employment during this time and you can work for whoever you want (that will hire you). You can change as many jobs as you like (and can). Employees don't have the type of leverage over you that they have with an H-1B in the US. You can also use this time to apply for a PR (permanent residence permit). The more highly educated you are and the better your job, the more likely you are to get one. If your postgraduate permit expires while your PR application is being processed, it is automatically extended until you get a response for your PR application (provided you do not leave the country in the meantime).

This is a false statement that keeps getting repeated but is not true.

Almost 20 years ago, the laws were changed that H1Bs could be transferred from one company to another.

Funny story about H1B and depressed wages. My company hired an H1B and by law his salary had to be posted on the company board. All the other engineers were mad about how much more he was making and ended up with the company having to give raises across the board. On the other hand, a young engineer was given a job offer right after college for $40K/yr and he accepted. He stayed for almost two years before realizing that he could easily make twice just switching jobs.

Something similar was proposed for the US, called it "stapling the green card with the diploma". However, lots of other stuff was tacked on to the bill and it became unpassable and was killed.

Re:favor

[fluffernutter]

Fine, but a very experienced person should be worth more than a masters then; so the same logic follows. The point being THAT THERE AREN'T MANY OF THEM. Which is the only way H-1B makes sense. They were supported to import 10 of the best, not 10000 of.. whatever they are.

Still being done wrong

[WindBourne]

Get rid of the H1B altogether. Instead,add 30K green cards which require that these be for ppl that are working at that business and can not be contracted/sub-contracted out to any other company for 5 years. By switching to green cards, these ppl can move around the companies, which means competition for salary. In addition, because they come here permanently, it does not require large numbers like 50 or 65K (and hillary promised a number of businesses to raise it to 500K for H1B; what a joke). A small number of say 20-30K is plenty good.

Re:Still being done wrong

[imidan]

H1Bs were never meant for bringing in most of the people companies are using them for today. The purpose was to be able to bring in high-skilled workers, temporarily, for the purpose of doing one job at one business and then going back home to their country. I support H1Bs used for such purposes, and I think the program should continue with a drastically reduced number of available visas and strict requirements for unique expertise and well-above average pay.

It seems like most businesses using the H1B program today want to bring in groups of foreign low-to-mid-level coders so they can treat them as indentured servants for a few years and then send them back when they're used up. I'm not sure we should even have a visa program to support that goal.

Re:Still being done wrong

[PhrostyMcByte]

So true. The way the program is currently working is an abuse of the people working for it as well as hurting local workers. We should be using it only to bring in experts when we truly can't find an American to do the job. There should be oversight to verify this.

Re:Still being done wrong

[guruevi]

The H1B'ers themselves don't mind, they go from H1B at one company to H1B at another, if they're here for 10 years, they claim residency.

It's another path to immigration, but it's indeed become a way for companies to hire a 'programmer' at minimum wage even though it's illegal to claim you can't find local talent for those jobs.

Re: Still being done wrong

[orlanz]

I think after X time (1 year?), the H1B should belong to the employee rather than the employer. And the only requirement should be to maintain salary A from a US Company and pay B level of taxes every year. After 4 years, you have a choice for GC or get out. GC to Citizenship is the standard 10 years.

I think that simple ownership and mobility will be enough to fix the system. And we can also limit issuing new visas based on the number currently active. Example: if we have a high unemployment rate.

Re:Still being done wrong

[WindBourne]

H1B WAS supposed to help with skilles needed here, but that is not the case.
Nearly all H1B is used to train offshore coders and then move operations out.
By moving to greencards combined with requiring that they not be farmed out, means that it WILL be only about a need of skills. In addition, by allowing them to move around to another company if they want,means salary competition remains.

Re:Still being done wrong

[rahvin112]

The H1-B was never created to fill a temp job. You are making up what you think it should be not what it was intended for or why congress created it.

It was created to continue to draw in and keep the worlds best and brightest. The H1-B was meant to keep college graduates in the US where they would step up into green cards and then citizenship after a decade or so. America had been a brain drain on the world for decades and that trend began to decline in the 80's and 90's with a number of fields being unable to hire enough people and not enough US citizens graduating in those programs to even replace retirees in the field so Congress created the H1-B program to give an opportunity for graduating foreigners in professions with tight labor markets an opportunity to stay in the US in high paid jobs and an eventual path to citizenship.

The work and wage requirements were specifically to prevent the system being abused for temp positions, exactly what you claim you think it is for. You don't get to just make up whatever rules you think it was created for, it's a matter of congressional record and it's intent and purpose is NOT what you claim. This temp job claim would make H1-B exactly not what they were intended to be, a system to be abused by foreign companies to replace US workers with slave labor. Your very premise is absurd.

Back on topic.

Personally I think it's a foolish example of degree inflation that serves no real purpose to require Masters or PhD's. H1-B's should be available to non-graduate level degrees just like any other field but it should be restricted to fields where there is a real market issue. There are a large number of STEM fields in the US where graduation rates are not sufficient to replace the people retiring in that field every year. These professions should be given preferential H1-B treatment and a direct path to citizenship afterwards, not requiring people to spend an extra $50k and 2 years on an advanced degree they don't need and might actually over qualify them which is just as likely to get the best and brightest to leave rather than put up with the hassle.

Though this proposal might help stem the abuse of H1-B, I doubt it will be effective. You could stop much of the abuse simply by enforcing the laws already on the books. Most of the companies abusing the H1-B system are doing so in ways that are transparently illegal and would be easy to verify with any type of enforcement system. The problem with the H1-B system is that there is no enforcement system. There is literally no risk to the companies abusing this because without enforcement there is zero risk of being caught. Enforce the laws we've already got on the books and you could stop H1-B abuse in less than half a year. Audit the companies, find the ones abusing them and bar them from hiring H1-B's.

Re:Still being done wrong

[imidan]

The H1 visa program was started to allow into the country aliens "having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is of distinguished merit and ability and who is coming temporarily to the United States to perform temporary services of an exceptional nature requiring such merit and ability." In the 90s, H1 was split into A and B, where A was for nurses and B was for others.

Go look at the text of the law. Here's an excerpt: we'll issue visas to an alien "having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily to the United States to perform other temporary service or labor if unemployed persons capable of performing such service or labor cannot be found in this country."

There's a subsection more directly related to academics: a visa for "an alien having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is a bona fide student, scholar, trainee, teacher, professor, research assistant, specialist, or leader in a field of specialized knowledge or skill, or other person of similar description, who is coming temporarily to the United States as a participant in a program designated by the Director of the United States Information Agency, for the purpose of teaching, instructing or lecturing, studying, observing, conducting research, consulting, demonstrating special skills, or receiving training..."

In every clause of this law, the word "temporary" features prominently. Every part of it starts with the same phrase about the person not abandoning their home. It's true that it's one of the few non-immigration visas that allows its holder to attempt to immigrate here. But for a law that you describe as having nothing to do with temporary jobs, the Congress sure included a lot of text about them.

Re:Still being done wrong

[hazardPPP]

It was created to continue to draw in and keep the worlds best and brightest. The H1-B was meant to keep college graduates in the US where they would step up into green cards and then citizenship after a decade or so. America had been a brain drain on the world for decades and that trend began to decline in the 80's and 90's with a number of fields being unable to hire enough people and not enough US citizens graduating in those programs to even replace retirees in the field so Congress created the H1-B program to give an opportunity for graduating foreigners in professions with tight labor markets an opportunity to stay in the US in high paid jobs and an eventual path to citizenship.

If that was the idea than the H-1B was implemented in a rather dumb way. Why not just give every foreign graduate of an American college a work permit for X years? This is what Canada does.

Re:Still being done wrong

[AHuxley]

A pathway to chain migration.

Re: Still being done wrong

[guruevi]

You obviously have no idea how it works. These workers go from one H1B job to the next. If you're in the US long enough (legal or illegal), you start a family or get married and at time of deportation you can apply for the hardship rule which most immigration judges test with a minimum length of time, about 10 years is more than sufficient to prove this.

Re: Still being done wrong

[parkinglot777]

You obviously have no idea how it works. These workers go from one H1B job to the next. If you're in the US long enough (legal or illegal), you start a family or get married and at time of deportation you can apply for the hardship rule which most immigration judges test with a minimum length of time, about 10 years is more than sufficient to prove this.

You are talking about the edge cases only. Still, that is just a "work around" but not the real way because it is not a 100% guarantee. Besides, if the person is married to a legal resident or American citizen and have a family, then the work around may (not guarantee) work. Most people who overstay are NOT qualified for the work around (or they simply use marriage as their path to get a green card but no kids or family). You can't simply be on H1B for 10 years because the maximum is 6 years unless you are already applied for a green card.

Though, a person may be on a work permit (somewhat similar to H1B but not quite) longer than 6 years if and only if the person came into the country as a refugee or any other legitimate reason why the person had to leave his/her own country. This way, the person will have to apply for renewal every year, and it depends on the judge whether or not the work permit is renewed. Most of the time, the person has still been involved in a proceeding and is waiting for the resolution.

Thus, it is a NO in general (most cases). Besides, the 10-year thing can't simply be used to establish your legal presence in the country. Even if you are legal and holding a non-immegration visa (e.g. F1), the time you are presence in the country does NOT count toward the eligibility for a green card application.

Re: Still being done wrong

[parkinglot777]

The visa belongs to the employee and never to the employer. It is a myth that the visa belongs to the employer. The only thing that the employee needs is a sponsor (employer) of the visa. The sponsor can be the current employer or any other employer, but only one employer can sponsor at a time. The employee has legal right to move to work for another employer as long as the new employer sponsors and does due diligence of the paper work for the employee (including guarantee the prevailing wage). However, the same time limit left of the visa still applies. For example, A comes into the U.S. with H1B visa and works for company B. A has been working for B for 2 years, and then A switches to work for company C (company C sponsors A to move to the company). A will have up to 4 more years of the visa length (1 year plus 3-year renewable) to work for C, not 6-year again.

The only reason why people believe that the visa belongs to employers because the way recruiting companies/corporations abuse/exploit the use of visa. The employees come in and don't know much about H1B but are happy to come to work in the U.S., so they don't really look out for what they can actually do. Furthermore, these companies make it more difficult to switch jobs. Just want to clear it out.

Re:Still being done wrong

[parkinglot777]

No, that's what the O visa is for. H1Bs are explicitly for temporary jobs.

No, O visa is different in the sense of restriction. If you want to get an O visa, you must already have a clear plan/project/itinerary of what you are going to do within a specific period of time. A company who is going to hire someone often times doesn't have a clear plan of what the person to do, let alone the length of time of the work. That's why H1B is more appropriate in this situation.

Re:Still being done wrong

[m00sh]

Get rid of the H1B altogether. Instead,add 30K green cards which require that these be for ppl that are working at that business and can not be contracted/sub-contracted out to any other company for 5 years. By switching to green cards, these ppl can move around the companies, which means competition for salary. In addition, because they come here permanently, it does not require large numbers like 50 or 65K (and hillary promised a number of businesses to raise it to 500K for H1B; what a joke). A small number of say 20-30K is plenty good.

Something like that already exists, it is called EB2.

But it is clogged and something that was designed to take a few months takes 1-2 years.

Another major problem is that there is a per country limit on green cards. Because of this, India and China have green card queues years or decades long. So, even if you made 30K green cards available, citizens of India and China would not be able to make use of it. But, a majority of applicants to H1B are from India and China.

Re: Still being done wrong

[m00sh]

I think after X time (1 year?), the H1B should belong to the employee rather than the employer. And the only requirement should be to maintain salary A from a US Company and pay B level of taxes every year. After 4 years, you have a choice for GC or get out. GC to Citizenship is the standard 10 years.

I think that simple ownership and mobility will be enough to fix the system. And we can also limit issuing new visas based on the number currently active. Example: if we have a high unemployment rate.

This was the case 20 years ago.

But, 20 years ago, H1B was a different system.

Hiring someone on H1B was immediate, no waiting, no lottery. After about 6 months to a year, you would switch them over to a green card and it would be done in 3 months.

It was owned by the employer because the employee could get another H1B easily if they found another employer.

Now, because H1Bs are "limited" and getting a new one involves waiting a year and a lottery, they have made it so that it now belongs to the employee and can transfer from one company to another.

Make it based on salary

[Anonymous Coward]

The best is to make it based on salary. The company must guarantee that salary for 12 months, else have to pay fine. Higher the salary, greater the chance of winning. This cannot be manipulated. A BS from MIT is worth more than MS from some Kansas State Univ. They get more salary and they should be higher on the preference list.

The University Scam of America

[Anonymous Coward]

has come full circle. If you want to make money, you don't start a cult, you start a university.

Re:The University Scam of America

[bickerdyke]

What's the difference?

thesis

[Anonymous Coward]

Masters and doctorate degrees requires writing a thesis and defending them. You have to come up with something new to write a thesis. Simple memorization will not help you.

Chalk one up for the Orange Guy

[Tablizer]

I disagree with a vast majority of "his" policies, but this one he got mostly right. H1B's were being used for IT "bodyshops" of de-facto indentured servants instead of what they were intended for: hard-to-find specialists. Kudos to the obnoxious wall-less one.

Re:Chalk one up for the Orange Guy

[DigiShaman]

It wont last. Once Trump leaves office, his replacement will overturn this. Too much money and power at stake to not do so. And honestly, it's not a political talking point worth going over in the media. Most people haven't a clue as to what H1B is let alone how it negatively impacts their own livelihoods and future.

Bullshit

[WCMI92]

It will favor whomever has the most money to grease the government. Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, whomever needs IT talent cheap will get the H1B visas.

Re: Bullshit

[orlanz]

Why? They can do L-1B visas (employee transfer). All those are big enough and have enough foreign presence to get blanket approval prior to selecting the candidates. And spouses and children are also allowed on a L1. And the spouse can work at a different company.

I fail to see the problem

[byrddtrader]

H-1B visa admissions should be tied to what we are lacking in talent in the US. At my company we are required to post applications along with salary info publicly for any position we are looking at H-1B candidates. We have developer positions, read non-management, that pay 150k to 180k. I interpret this as we are in short supply of this type of talent.

Re: I fail to see the problem

[astrofurter]

"developer positions, read non-management, that pay 150k to 180k"

So you're offering the same salaries you paid 15 years ago. Even though cost of living has tripled since then. Hmmmmmmmmm.... I wonder why you're having a hard time finding workers??

I wouldn't chalk one up to him yet

[rsilvergun]

Missing from the stories I've read is that the cap was 65,000 2 years ago. Trump's Admin raised the cap by 20,000, which is where those newly favored Master's and Doctoral candidates land.

Meanwhile he still hasn't undone the Obama era executive rule that allows the spouses of H1-Bs to work in this country even though a) doing so would be consistent with the cries of abuse of power we heard for 8 years during the Obama admin and b) He promised to during the campaign.

Donald Trump is a man who consistently hired illegal immigrants for his golf courses. There were interviews with angry Americans who wanted to but couldn't get hired to work his courses. Don't be fooled. He's after the same thing all the GOP is: Cheap Labor.

Re:I wouldn't chalk one up to him yet

[parkinglot777]

Missing from the stories I've read is that the cap was 65,000 2 years ago. Trump's Admin raised the cap by 20,000, which is where those newly favored Master's and Doctoral candidates land.

I'm sorry but I have to point out the wrong information. The 20,000 additional cap of H1B has been included for advance degrees since 2006 (Bush jr. administration).

You know that would be fine

[rsilvergun]

if it led to a big of God Damned Solidarity.

The white collar guys laughed when the blue collared folks had their jobs sent to China & Mexico. We told them to reskill. When it happened to us the blue collared guys didn't give two shits. Meanwhile the rich were gorging on a buffet of cheap labor all around while our middle class lives were decimated and our pensions looted.

Wasn't there a line about something something at first I didn't speak out because I wasn't a something something?

Re:You know that would be fine

[serviscope_minor]

The white collar guys laughed when the blue collared folks had their jobs sent to China & Mexico.

No they didn't. I mean sure there's always some arseholes, but that sentiment was never there.

We told them to reskill.

What *should* "we" have told them? Those jobs went, never to come back. Should "we" have told them platitudes and lies to make them feel better? It's not like "we" could have magicked the jobs back.

So yeah the choices were reskill or never get another job. Fucking sucks. By it's still the truth.

When it happened to us the blue collared guys didn't give two shits.

That didn't happen.

Meanwhile the rich were gorging on a buffet of cheap labor all around while our middle class lives were decimated and our pensions looted.

Oh well that did. But you are confusing "white collar" with the rich. Most white collar people are middle class. Sees like you've got all mixed up in your class warfare.

I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[rsilvergun]

if I got anything from them. But as it stands I get virtually no services from my government. We're not building roads. We slashed funding to Schools and the sciences (I'm paying for most of my kid's college out of pocket and living like shit to do it) and I spent $14k on medical insurance last year.

Americans are having less kids. That's normal for a developed country. So yeah, if we want our 401ks to have value in 20 years we'd need immigrants. But my 401k has been eaten up by fees and market crashes. And with my wages so low due to stiff competition with H1-Bs it's not like I have a lot of money to put into it anyway. Meanwhile I've got a Democrat, Joe fricken' Biden, attacking Social Security

What I'm saying is screw the social order. The rich and powerful broke the social contract so screw it all. End the H1-B program until we have systems in place so that there's some benefit to me, you and every American who isn't a fucking multi millionaire. Hell, stop all immigration until that time.

Re: I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[astrofurter]

"End the H1-B program"

My friend, we don't agree on much. But we agree on this.

Maybe it's time for people to start asking WWFDRD - What Would FDR Do?

Re:I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[AmiMoJo]

Immigration isn't causing your low pay and high fees. If you stop immigration tomorrow you aren't suddenly going to get a job paying 50% more.

The UK is running this experiment right now, if you wish to observe. Businesses are just moving the work overseas, not increasing local wages. It's 50/50 if that means a few more local jobs, or a few less as the higher skilled ones get exported as well.

What you need to do is reform H1B to deal with the low skill outsourcing companies. The economic activity generated by having a supply of highly skilled workers is a net benefit to you, you want to keep that.

Re:I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[djinn6]

If you think the government is broken, then the solution is not any of the practical changes, because they'll be corrupted along the way to serve the rich and powerful.

What you want is a complete reform of the election system. Personally I'd go for instant-runoff voting, but any kind of ranked choice would be better than the current system.

Re:I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[AHuxley]

Immigration places more work on US health care, pensions, jobs and education.
All the results of chain immigration is not covered by one person doing an average job in the USA for a few years.
Economic activity is generated by having educated workers who are loyal to the USA.
Not loyal to their bank accounts and life back in their own nations.
Not loyal to the next nation to accept them.
Few nations can create the needed really "highly skilled workers" outside the USA.
Why bring in below and average workers? To then spend tax payers money supporting them?
The USA had decades to produce all the "highly skilled workers" it needed.
Generations to get US education system to meet the needs of the "highly skilled" jobs.

Re:I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[AmiMoJo]

On the one hand, you don't want their families to come. On the other, you want them to stay long term and contribute.

As an actual immigrant who moved for work I can tell you that the idea we just flit around taking any offer that looks good is nonsense. It's a huge upheaval, a huge pain in the arse to sort out visas for us and our families, and every time you need to figure out how the new country works, get your kids into the local education system, learn the local language and customs etc. I pay my way, I have to pay for healthcare while my taxes subsidise less fortunate locals' treatment.

Of course most immigrants are on the younger side and healthy so they tend not to place much of a burden on healthcare or pensions anyway. Studies in the UK found them to be a net contributor, maybe the US is different but given that you don't have free healthcare I'd be surprised.

The company I worked for was looking for local talent for over a year. It's great that you want to invest in education but for a business hearing that you will just have to wait 10-15 years to get a qualified graduate when you need an experienced engineer isn't going to cut it. My employment has lead to the company being able to hire two juniors who will now gain experience and eventually take on my role when I leave one day.

Re:I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[strikethree]

Wow. I have kind of disliked you over the years. Not enough to "Foe" you or anything... but damn, you are a real person here. I can respect that. I have disliked many of the things you have said in the past. You seem to lean waaaaaaayyyyy too far left for me.

This one comment. It is real. It is raw. I like it. I don't want you to become a radical or a rightie or anything other than just being real. Keep it up. :)

Re:I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[Uberbah]

Immigration isn't causing your low pay

It certainly is if you work in STEM. The entire purpose of the H1-B program is to increase the size of the labor pool available to corporations, to lower their labor costs.

What you need to do is reform H1B

...is to apply at least a $200,000 excise tax on each H1B worker on top of requiring companies to pay fair market rates. Then we'll know there really is a critical shortage of workers with X specialty, instead of IBM/Oracle/whomever just wanting to find cheaper workers. And a temporary shortage at that as it will be cheaper in the long run to train an American replacement instead of paying that $200k per year.

Re:I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[AHuxley]

Chain migration then sets in.
In the UK the gov will have to support part of that.
In the USA that's more city and state services. Thats the "free healthcare"/education/services the USA has to pay for.

Re:I wouldn't mind H1-Bs so much

[karmatic]

"Studies in the UK found them to be a net contributor, maybe the US is different but given that you don't have free healthcare I'd be surprised."

The issue (for legal immigrants) isn't so much that they aren't net contributors. The problem is that they are a net negative for other workers.

The government of Canada and Harvard Unviersity looked at immigration in the US, Canada, and Mexico. They found that a 10% migration-induced shift in the labor market led to a shift in weekly wages of 4% in the other direction.

On a macro level, this looks like a good thing - for example, trading 40% more workers for only a 16% decline in weekly wages seems like an easy way to grow the economy, and a net win for the country. On the other hand, it really sucks for the people who on average are earning 16% less.

It's even worse than it might otherwise sound, as immigrants disproportionately move to major cities, increasing demand (and prices) for housing, as well as healthcare and mass transit. Higher skilled workers (like Canada tends to attract with their merit-based system) depress wages for the professional class (who pay taxes), disproportionately lowering overall tax revenues (even though some immigrants pay significantly more in taxes than they use in services). In the US, with it's reliance on family class immigrants and illegal aliens, tax revenues aren't affected much (as the poor pay little in taxes), but income inequality goes up.

In the US, that migration-induced wage suppression disproportionately affects poorer workers, and as such ends up being significantly higher for individual workers than merely 4% for every 10% shift.

In other words, while immigrants can be a net contributor for the *country*, they can still be horrible for the Citizens.

American with 150K+ loan can't take an 60K year j

[Joe_Dragon]

American with 150K+ loan can't take an 60K year job In CA.

So they will hire an H1B to fill that role

Re: Auction

[astrofurter]

Why only 150% of median salary? I think 1000% (10x) of median salary is a much better minimum.

If a company _really_ needs a super expert whose skills are genuinely not available domestically, very high pay will not be a problem. Ad for the 99% of H1Bs who are not super experts, but rather average-skilled scabs brought in to drive down wages for domestic workers - they can stay home and help build up their own counties.

Re: Exceptional people deserve exceptional (2x) pa

[astrofurter]

No. Minimum 10x prevailing wage for the industry. H1B is for super duper ultra experts they can't find anywhere in a country of 350 million. Right....?

Re:What do the body shops look like in a year?

[AHuxley]

The next step is very short term visa to work within one company in the USA.
But working for the company in their own nation as the "brand" that pays their wage.
So the worker is sent to the USA for months as an short term expert working on a project but never really becomes part of the US work force or a US company.
They get the same pay as they did in their own country as the work is only on one project for weeks in the USA.
Work in the USA is like an ocean liner.
Physically in a very different part of the world.
Same low pay as in the 2nd/3rd world nation as that is who they still work for.

Why is it even a lottery?

[dyslexicbunny]

Everyone submits their needs, sort by salary highest->lowest and take the first 85,000. At the end of the year, interview the employee and look at their tax and bank records to ensure they are receiving that salary (bank to make sure they aren't passing money on to a non-family third party). Companies that fail to deliver the proper salary will be fined 10x the proposed salary and jail someone(s) for lying on a government form.

My car breaks down sometimes

[rsilvergun]

I don't chunk it and get a new car, especially if all I need to do is replace a fuse or even a solenoid.

I think the basic structures can be made to work with a few adjustments (the big one being to make it so people refuse to vote for somebody if they take corporate cash. The other big one to end all forms of voter suppression).

Ranked Choice would be good and I want to see it, but it solves one specific problem (spoiler candidates like the Green Party, who helped give us Trump). There's plenty more to do.

What a relief for American programmers!

[Tony Isaac]

These H1b's with MS and PhD's might know theory, but can they get things done? In my experience, not very many of them can.

The best programmers got a BS degree because they knew they needed one to qualify for a lot of the good jobs out there. But it was a formality, a necessary evil. They couldn't wait to get their degree so they could leave school and start being productive. The ones that stay for higher degrees tend to be the ones that are good at school, or theory, not necessarily good at practice.

This tendency means more opportunities for the "rest of us."