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US Labor Organization AFL-CIO Urges Game Developers To Unionize In Open Letter (gamasutra.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Gamasutra: In the wake of Activision Blizzard's massive layoff wave, a move that was announced in the same call as the company's record quarter, the union federation AFL-CIO has published an open letter to game developers urging members of the industry to organize. The AFL-CIO itself is the largest labor organization in the United States and counts 55 individual unions (and more than 12.5 million workers) among its affiliates. The letter, readable in full on Kotaku, calls out many of the issues that have prompted conversations about unionization in just recent years like excessive crunch, toxic work conditions, inadequate pay, and job instability. The industry, points out AFL-CIO's secretary-treasurer Liz Shuler, boasted sales 3.6 times greater than those of the film industry in 2018, yet much of that financial success isn't felt by the developers working on the games that generate those billions. "Executives are always quick to brag about your work. It's the talk of every industry corner office and boardroom. They pay tribute to the games that capture our imaginations and seem to defy economic gravity. They talk up the latest innovations in virtual reality and celebrate record-smashing releases, as your creations reach unparalleled new heights," says Shuler.

"My question is this: what have you gotten in return? They get rich. They get notoriety. They get to be crowned visionaries and regarded as pioneers. What do you get? Outrageous hours and inadequate paychecks. Stressful, toxic work conditions that push you to your physical and mental limits. The fear that asking for better means risking your dream job. [...] Change will happen when you gain leverage by joining together in a strong union. And, it will happen when you use your collective voice to bargain for a fair share of the wealth you create every day. No matter where you work, bosses will only offer fair treatment when you stand together and demand it."

158 comments

  1. True by vlad30 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But I find these days most Union leaders are more in it for themselves than the workers and they are looking for more union due paying members to support their lifestyle or political ambition

    --
    Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
    1. Re:True by jeff4747 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      or political ambition

      Could you point to a recent election where a union leader won? Or even ran?

      Or is this more along the lines of "political ambition" in the form of "lobbying", which is an excellent business practice when corporations do it, but horrifyingly evil when unions do it?

    2. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is horrifyingly evil when it is a public union, just mildly evil for private sector unions.

    3. Re:True by Daemonik · · Score: 3

      Or is this more along the lines of "political ambition" in the form of "lobbying", which is an excellent business practice when corporations do it, but horrifyingly evil when unions do it?

      Didn't you read the memo? Anything that can be done without paying buckets of money to a corporation is automatically heresy and to be publicly scorned.

    4. Re:True by vlad30 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bill Shorten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Likely to be Australia's Next Prime minister and most of his party are former Union Leaders and when they win the leader is either former union leader or union managemnt of some sort. While this may not be the case in the US we have a problem with unions in Australia https://www.theguardian.com/au... Note the US is one country on slashdot, the rest of the world is represented here also

      --
      Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
    5. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't want that type of person in power, stop voting for them.

    6. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it's not like people in public unions have actual families to feed, or workplace-related issues that could harm them. Everybody knows they're really robots.

    7. Re: True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where women glow...

    8. Re: True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And men chunder.

    9. Re: True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're bureaucrats. I don't respect them. Just keep shooting, Morty.

    10. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If I even mention the "U" word in any workplace, I'd get sent out the door, and definitely blacklisted. Hell, I actually was told I was blacklisted for life from most places, just because I used to work at the county, and was a part of a local union there.

      Of course, technically blacklists are illegal, but hey, when you use an offshore third party that gives a thumbs up or thumbs down on employees, you skirt that law.

    11. Re: True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does voting have to do with who is in power??

    12. Re: True by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      "when you use an offshore third party that gives a thumbs up or thumbs down on employees, you skirt that law."

      Details, please?

    13. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unions supposedly exist to protect workers from evil capitalists. Why do they need protection from the government? What you get with public employee unions is the unions paying for the election of legislators who then negotiate with said union. It's pure pay to play corruption. None of the stated reasons why unions serve a purpose, and a direct cash flow to decision makers. I don't know how anyone could support public employee unions. It's pure racketeering.

    14. Re:True by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Why would you want to be a politician? Where you have a job where half the politicians kiss your butt?
      I have never seen a Unionized work place any better off then a non-unioned. I often see more firing and worse working conditions.
      As the Union cares more about numbers then quality. So they will negotiate firing skilled workers to bring in double unskilled workers. The extra salary bonus they may get gets sucked into Union dues. If one is forced to strike then that salary increase is lost due to the days you are on strike.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    15. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you want to win an election? Union leaders need to stick to their unions so they can steal from the funds they get. Having an elected position would just be more work.

    16. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They need protection from the government when it becomes bought out by the evil capitalists, who then decimate their protections by changing the laws. They have to lobby to keep the semblance of a fair playing field - unions without political lobbying is like tying an arm behind their back. If the investor class gets to have $20,000 political fundraiser lunches and access to their representatives, then the unions need to have that same access. Why is it pay-to-play corruption when it's a public union trying to influence representatives, but when Goldman Sachs executives run the SEC and Treasury and buy access to legislators to have regulations eased and taxes cut (with MUCH greater success these past few years) it's apparently something else?

    17. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, after reading through the thread here, I can see the
      Canary Island bots are hard at work trying to dissuade any
      intelligent talk of forming an Union.
      tldr; they should form a Union.

      CAP === 'blower'

    18. Re:True by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Unions exist to protect workers from greed and exploitation

      FTFY. Public sector unions exist because self-centered fools such as yourself expect professional services without having to pay professional wages - and you vote.

      What you get with public employee unions is the unions paying for the election of legislators who then negotiate with said union. It's pure pay to play corruption.

      Pure dumbfuckery. If that actually worked, the US would be a socialist utopia as more and more legislators supported those unions and public spending - but that hasn't happened even in the bluest of blue states. The only thing connecting the dots of public sector unions and them being inherently corrupt institutions is the crap between your ears.

    19. Re: True by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      It maybe illegal to blacklist but let's say I am HR or a manager. I can say nothing wrong but in a dread tone mixed with some sighs say something like " sigh breath. Yeah he worked here. Uh huh in a sarcastic tone. He did X for Y time. I then will be silent. When asked if you were rehireable I say sharply and rudely SIR! I can't answer that!

      Technically I followed the law and didn't defame you if you recorded my words. However, you most certainly would have a rescinded job offer.

      There are ways around things

    20. Re:True by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      He's cheating! I want to cheat, too!

      Most lobbying ends up as bribery, direct or indirect, open or disguised. It should be strictly prohibited, and all bribery of government personnel should result in long prison terms for both parties.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    21. Re:True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As per your link, "the problem with unions in Australia" is largely limited to a small handful of unions, some worse than others. Unions have done some amazing things for workers in this country, I speak from experience. Sure, you will find corruption in some, but can you name a single institution where that isn't the case?

    22. Re:True by s4080326 · · Score: 1

      Bill Shorten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Likely to be Australia's Next Prime minister and most of his party are former Union Leaders and when they win the leader is either former union leader or union managemnt of some sort. While this may not be the case in the US we have a problem with unions in Australia https://www.theguardian.com/au... Note the US is one country on slashdot, the rest of the world is represented here also

      Yes we have a problem with unions, but we would definitely be worse off without them. Going of the most recent royal commission we also have a problem with banks but we would be worse without them. And spoiler alert here but we have a problem with aged care in this country. It's pretty unfair to use the results of a royal commission, most of which have already been dealt with, to claim we have a major problem, they have proven quite crucial in dealing with hidden problems before they get too out of control to deal with.

    23. Re:True by Phist · · Score: 0

      Union leaders are elected to office by the union members. They are a layer of management to the business that employs a union organization. So almost every union leader you point at is a winner of an election with exceptions being appointees by elected union leaders. Can you imagine how a union adds more organizational politics to the workplace?

    24. Re: True by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Yes, I understand how that works. But I'm very interested in the AC's claim about using an offshore third party.

  2. A Union Promoting Forming a Union... by atouk · · Score: 0, Troll

    ...imagine that! And after it's done, send us money so we can chase another industry offshore by making demands to publishers. But hey, we're doing it to protect you... This isn't a boots on the ground industry like mining or trucking, this is a job that can be done from anywhere (and cheaper). Yes, quality may suffer, but that's going to be what hurts them, not strikes. Bad games don't (well, they shouldn't), sell.

    1. Re:A Union Promoting Forming a Union... by Daemonik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or, just go on believing you're the next John Galt just waiting for your genius utopia. That's what your CEO wants anyway while he's burning the company down around himself and cashing in before having your cubicle packed up.

      The game industry isn't any different from the film industry, movies can literally be made anywhere in the world, that hasn't gotten rid of Union representation in the film business though, as much as the Oligarch class would prefer it otherwise.

    2. Re:A Union Promoting Forming a Union... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      >The game industry isn't any different from the film industry
      One is filled with kikes, the other isn't (but that's changing (and that's a good thing!))

    3. Re: A Union Promoting Forming a Union... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The game industry does have less nepotism, favoritism and use of sexual favors to advance your career though

    4. Re:A Union Promoting Forming a Union... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or, just go on believing you're the next John Galt just waiting for your genius utopia.

      Didn't John Galt lead people out on strike?

    5. Re:A Union Promoting Forming a Union... by atouk · · Score: 2

      >Didn't John Galt lead people out on strike?

      WTF, Dude! You aren't supposed to actually read Ayn Rand, just cite it to give your opinion some intellectual weight.

    6. Re: A Union Promoting Forming a Union... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This shouldn't be -1, this should be +5 Informative.

      Five years later and people STILL want to deny that Zoe Quinn sucked and fucked her way through the games industry.

      Get your heads out the sand. It happened. We will never forget.

  3. Will never work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Too many differences in skill level between workers. If you all had the same skills it might work. Good luck

  4. Unions are where innovation goes to die by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unionization is the domain of the unimaginative; it's for people who see no way to improve let alone disrupt their industry.

  5. Re:Note the language by Daemonik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sounds like every corporation I've ever worked for. "Those" people are after your jobs! Work harder and don't take vacation or we'll buy robots! It's your fault we're moving to China, why can't YOU live on $5 an hour? We're a team aren't we??

  6. required? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sometimes union membership is obligatory, which does not seem right or wise.

    Also, like another AC said above, there are HUGE HUGE differences in skill between different tech workers. You have some who are useless or even worse than useless because they take the time of people who are competent, and then you have some who are John Carmack alikes, and everything in between. It is not reasonable for those to be paid the same based on having the same seniority.

    1. Re: required? by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      It's notorious that "10x programmers" are NEVER paid 10x the salary of their minimum competence colleagues. So tell me again, who exactly is benefitting from the current system?

  7. Upper Management is the only Union that Matters by man2525 · · Score: 0

    Try to get a C-level suit fired. Let me know how that goes. But please, feel free to continue the baby genius food fight.

  8. That's actually a pretty good comparison by Solandri · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The industry, points out AFL-CIO's secretary-treasurer Liz Shuler, boasted sales 3.6 times greater than those of the film industry in 2018, yet much of that financial success isn't felt by the developers working on the games that generate those billions.

    So let's take a look at that. How has unionizing helped income equality in the film industry? Apparently not much, as two of the five companies with the worst CEO to median worker pay ratio are film studios, and a third is a TV studio.

    If you look through that list, you get the sense that the presence of robust competition within the industry is the important factor, not unions. About a third of the companies on that list enjoy IP monopolies (copyrights, patents) or regulatory monopolies (ISPs). And several of the remainder have close to a natural monopoly.

    1. Re:That's actually a pretty good comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CEO-worker pay ratio is good for illustrating inequality but not for illustrating union benefits. What you'd want to do is compare the median worker pay for union and non-union shops. Disney giving Bob Iger what we call "way too much fucking money" doesn't really matter if we're talking about union protections.

      Furthermore, unions can negotiate for things that don't show up as direct compensation. For example, in the games industry, they might dictate a ban on crunch time. That would take the company from needing to hire 100 people to work 80 hours a week for $100,000/yr, to hiring 200 people 40 hours a week for $60,000/yr. The company's labor expenses have gone up, but worker compensation went down, because the company can no longer mismanage projects and hope some starry-eyed undergrads can clean up their mess. Instead they have to hire people for a more consistent and reasonable amount of time, which a lot of workers would prefer over killing themselves over "passion" or whatever buzzword management cooked up this week.

    2. Re:That's actually a pretty good comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The industry, points out AFL-CIO's secretary-treasurer Liz Shuler, boasted sales 3.6 times greater than those of the film industry in 2018, yet much of that financial success isn't felt by the developers working on the games that generate those billions.

      So let's take a look at that. How has unionizing helped income equality in the film industry?

      And what about working hours/conditions? Pensions? Medical insurance?

      No one would object to a bigger paycheque, but if that can't be improved, a guild system may not be a bad thing for at least some aspects of the job. A lot of the game developers/artists are treated like contractors, so all of the above are up to the individual.

    3. Re:That's actually a pretty good comparison by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      My union just negotiated such indirect benefits as a salary cap and a six year pay freeze (to bring me under the salary cap).

    4. Re:That's actually a pretty good comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No matter how hard you try 9 women can't make even a baby in a month.
      Game development is as much technical as it is creative.

      How about this? A team of 10 work a game project until it's done for $60k-$90k/year and as long as they were full time for at least half of the project, 40% of the profits generated by the game gets split evenly among them? (Profits must be defined by generally accepted accounting principles, not "Hollywood math")

    5. Re:That's actually a pretty good comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are talented in an industry-appropriate skill, it's not hard to find opportunities in the games business.

      Did you get decent health care? Did you get paid time off that you can actually use? Did you get some assurance that you wont be laid off next month or fired without cause? Some things are worth more than money because you could never get these things on your own. None of my union friends lost their jobs during the financial bust in 2008. Can you say that? What about community? I like the way that Bob Marley put it to his son Ziggy when he told him from his death bed that, "Money cannot buy life." There's a lesson there for those with the wisdom to learn it.

    6. Re:That's actually a pretty good comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Money cannot buy life

      Then it's fine for corporations to keep all of it, amirite?

    7. Re:That's actually a pretty good comparison by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I'm in Canada; time off didn't change and is effectively the legal minimum; I have a contract that is renewed annually but contains a clause that says I can be fired for any reason, including "funds ran out", with two weeks notice or two weeks pay in lieu.

      Yes, I am an academic.

    8. Re:That's actually a pretty good comparison by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Did you get decent health care? Did you get paid time off that you can actually use? Did you get some assurance that you wont be laid off next month or fired without cause? Some things are worth more than money because you could never get these things on your own.

      Yeah, my last four jobs all offered those.

      Didn't join a union in any of them. Got indirectly fucked over by a union in two of them. Fucking unions.

  9. AFL-CIO is Right but not the answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Look at German unions, intimately tied to the businesses their workers are employed. The business’ welfare is the union’s welfare. Less stupid shit happens.

    Mega unions like AFL-CIO not so much. The big wigs in it aren’t working stiffs at the same places themselves but just political whores. They have so many businesses under their belt, they strike and the employees suffer because the business dies, they don’t care because they think they proved a point. It’s just trading one master for another.

    The game industry needs to unionize but the workers don’t need a new master.

  10. Re:Note the language by Kohath · · Score: 1

    Sounds like every corporation I've ever worked for. "Those" people are after your jobs! Work harder and don't take vacation or we'll buy robots! It's your fault we're moving to China, why can't YOU live on $5 an hour? We're a team aren't we??

    I've never heard that from any company. I haven't heard any genuine secondhand accounts of it either.

    We can read the AFL-CIO language right here though. It's not a made up story. It's what they actually said.

  11. Bullshit by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unionizing is the exactly opposite of divide and conquer. You might need to go look up what the word "Union" means.

    You're strawmaning. You're trying to redirect the conversation away from "Game devs are being taken advantage of and should organized for better bargaining power" to "The heads of the Union you form might be corrupt so don't form one in the first place". The Stawman here is a big, scary Union Boss.

    This has _nothing_ to do with negativity and everything to do with the fact that you, by yourself, do not have enough leverage to secure decent or even safe working conditions. This is a historic fact. It's not something that's up for debate. You by yourself cannot beat Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates in negotiations.

    Of course you're just parroting a long standing anti-Union straw man. Are you getting paid to do this or just trolling for fun? Either way you're the 20th century equivalent of this. Didn't work last time either.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Bullshit by Kohath · · Score: 0

      Your stories vs. the actual words of the AFL-CIO guy. Which should we believe?

      AFL-CIO guy's words are not a strawman.

    2. Re:Bullshit by Kohath · · Score: 1

      ...you, by yourself, do not have enough leverage to secure decent or even safe working conditions. This is a historic fact. It's not something that's up for debate. You by yourself cannot beat Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates in negotiations.

      I absolutely can if they need my help. I'm extremely good at my job. I'm not some interchangeable worker-drone. (Almost no one is — it’s not 1895 anymore.).

      People in the games industry have this thing called talent. They're not units of labor that go into a production equation.

      If you're not talented and you think you'll never be very valuable to your production team, then the union is for you. They'll make sure even the dregs can get by.

      If you are talented in an industry-appropriate skill, it's not hard to find opportunities in the games business.

    3. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not going up against Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates. Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are going up against every other companies in the world out to recruit developers, and they are losing some pretty big fish.

      Companies who treat developers like garbage turn into garbage. Developers don't need unions. They need a backbone.

      If you want to help developers, give them negotiation training. They don't need anything more.

    4. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has _nothing_ to do with negativity and everything to do with the fact that you, by yourself, do not have enough leverage to secure decent or even safe working conditions.

      If you can't do good enough work to get a good job with decent pay then maybe you have to join a union of other mediocre workers. That way you can advance on seniority instead of merit. The bonus is that you will get to work with slackers that don't care and can't get fired. And you'll get to pay the union for the pleasure. Win-win, right?

    5. Re:Bullshit by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Union organizers are frequently corrupt. It's not a secret. Besides, union workers are those blue collar whites that you on the Left think are deplorable racists. Why are you pretending to stand up for them? They disproportionately benefit from protectionism and lose to globalism. Are you getting paid to do this or just trolling for fun?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I absolutely can if they need my help.

      They don't need you. They don't care about you.

      I'm extremely good at my job.

      That's irrelevant. There are tens of thousands and maybe millions of individuals who can do your job as good or better than you. They could hire them instead and they will if you irritate them.

      I'm not some interchangeable worker-drone.

      Actually you are, you just haven't realized it yet.

      Almost no one is — it’s not 1895 anymore.

      Every generation thinks that they're different and special, but you're almost certainly not as special as you think you are.

      People in the games industry have this thing called talent.

      Everything is worth what it's purchaser will pay for it. They don't need your talent to sell games. EA will be able to make Madden 20xx just fine without you. There are tens of thousands of independent game developers on Steam, many of them very talented, selling a few thousand units for a few dollars apiece. That's not a living, it's a hobby.

      They're not units of labor that go into a production equation.

      The games business is not unlike any other business. It must be organized to succeed. That doesn't happen by accident or by dint of your "talent". They could still market a big budget game and sell the hell out of it with or without your help. You are perfectly substitutable because they could make the same amount of money with or without your help. If you won't work on their game, other developers will and you and your "talent" will be out of a job.

      If you're not talented and you think you'll never be very valuable to your production team, then the union is for you.

      And you too if you weren't too naive to see that you are being abused.

      They'll make sure even the dregs can get by.

      Yeah, I suppose that we would have to keep you on, out of solidarity, but we would do that for a fellow union member. The capitalists, on the other hand, don't care whether you live or die.

      If you are talented in an industry-appropriate skill, it's not hard to find opportunities in the games business.

      I wouldn't call working myself to death for a pittance an "opportunity", or at least not one that I'd want to take advantage of.

    7. Re: Bullshit by edris90 · · Score: 1

      Well if business and capital holders were a bit more proactive about taking care of others, the wouldn't need to be forced into behaving responsible y in Society

    8. Re: Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Notorious slumlord and offshore outsourcer roman_mir argues for protecting exploitative capitalists from attempts by actually-productive workers to preserve their standard of living. News at 11!

    9. Re: Bullshit by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      +1 blunt

    10. Re:Bullshit by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Incorrect. We interview people all the time. None of them know how to do the work. We've hired a couple and trained them. Years later, they're still only ok at it.

      Just because you aren't talented doesn't mean the rest of us have that same limitation.

    11. Re:Bullshit by jareth-0205 · · Score: 1

      I'm extremely good at my job. I'm not some interchangeable worker-drone. (Almost no one is — it’s not 1895 anymore.).

      Oooo... someone thinks they're a special unique flower....

      If you've ever left a job, and that company has done ok without you, you're replaceable. Perhaps for your own sake it would be worth reconsidering how interchangeable you are.

    12. Re: Bullshit by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      That's bullshit. If you had a massive heart attack to died today your employer will still exist tomorrow. Products or services provided will still be done. Hell, your team will still deliver it's products too! You are 100% replaceable always.

      Don't delude yourself. Former CEOS who contributor hell of a lot more than you from McDonald's, Microsoft, Home Depot, GM, etc have all been fired. Yet they are still selling shit and making money.

      People need to put their ego blinders off and realize they are not God's and are vulnerable just every one else.

    13. Re: Bullshit by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      I can replace you easily. Name the price and it will be done. There is always another programmer better and more experienced than you. There are those just better or have better people skills that get along with management.

      No sense bowing to your corporate masters as your a cog black box to them and only the rockstar CEO is important... FYI he is not either according to Wall Street

    14. Re:Bullshit by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Perhaps for your own sake it would be worth reconsidering how interchangeable you are.

      I do reconsider it. Every time we interview someone. Each time we interview an applicant, I am more and more convinced that my employer needs me a lot more than I need them.

      It's a good suggestion though. Everyone should be thinking about how they can maximize their value (and hence their pay).

    15. Re: Bullshit by Kohath · · Score: 1

      That's bullshit. If you had a massive heart attack to died today your employer will still exist tomorrow. Products or services provided will still be done.

      They would have a really difficult time and face production delays. They would desperately try to hire a replacement. It would cost them a lot and they would have a really difficult time getting someone more than half as good at it.

      Hell, your team will still deliver it's products too!

      Not on time. Not working correctly. Not even close. Delays and errors are very expensive.

      Former CEOS who contributor hell of a lot more than you from McDonald's, Microsoft, Home Depot, GM, etc have all been fired. Yet they are still selling shit and making money.

      Awesome example. Look at the performance of McDonalds in the last few years of their new CEO versus the last few years under their previous CEO. Then tell us how Steve Easterbrook is "replaceable" by Don Thompson. The right guy makes a huge difference.

      People need to put their ego blinders off and realize they are not God's and are vulnerable just every one else.

      They should be objective about their value. It's not infinite. It's not zero. It's a number in between, based on the need for the work and the availability of a substitute.

      If you think your value is less than average, then you might want to try to trick the above average guys into forming a union. Then you can share some of their success with them.

    16. Re:Bullshit by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Of course you're just parroting a long standing anti-Union straw man.

      So what you are saying is that we don't need to worry about corruption in unions, that we should just join unions regardless of any doubts or prior experiences?

      I guess the corruption thing will just work its own way out and should not be a concern to us mortals?

      Your blindness is adorable in its naivety. It is also extremely dangerous to me. You are the first person that I have ever considered making a "foe" on Slashdot. Not because you offend me or make me mad. No. It is your blindness. You are dangerous to be near. Your blindness enables and encourages catastrophes to occur. It is like you are advising a sexy young woman to walk down an unlit alley, alone and intoxicated because rape is illegal; therefore, she shouldn't need to worry about protecting herself.

      Yeah. You are actively encouraging evil here bro. I don't like it.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    17. Re:Bullshit by tomhath · · Score: 1
      FTFA:

      it will happen when you use your collective voice to bargain for a fair share of the wealth you create every day

      How about instead of working for that company you head down to Mom's basement and create some wealth on your own? You can't.

      If you can be replaced by another competent developer who can do the same job then you aren't creating the wealth. You get paid a salary to do a job, and if you don't think the salary is worth what's asked of you, leave.

  12. Dirty Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Besides bringing you weekends, 40-hour work weeks, an end to child labor, etc, what have the unions ever done for the US?

    \s

    1. Re: Dirty Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Failure of the automotive industry....

    2. Re: Dirty Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Destroyed the entire manufacturing industry?

      Stolen billions from the working class in order to line the pockets of the union heads and their political lackeys?

      Were you trying to look like a sniveling fucking imbecile, or is that just a natural thing?

    3. Re:Dirty Unions by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Besides bringing you weekends, 40-hour work weeks, an end to child labor, etc, what have the unions ever done for the US?

      \s

      You don't owe modern organizers any money or gratitude for the efforts of other people who died a long time ago. Modern organizers did none of those things.

    4. Re:Dirty Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it was Henry Ford who did most of that, with the exception of banning Child Labor which had already been outlawed by that time. He wanted to see his workers have time off to enjoy their families and cars, which they could now afford, again thanks to him. He also found the workers were more productive with 2 days off than 1.

      Now go away and play in the street or something.

    5. Re: Dirty Unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite sure the moneychangers and the Goofolks had a big part in shipping US and EU jobs to China.

      They used Faux Trade with the Chicoms as a cover.

  13. Depends on the Union. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having visited the Mechanical Engineer's union and had the same people running that union branch also overseeing testing, and working the front desk (yes, really!) I can tell you that not every union is out for their own benefit, although the meta organizations and their leadership might be.

    Having said that, I am not sure game developers are best served by unionizing over simple peer pressure. Friend's don't let friends join big developers. If enough of the community stops working for these companies, they will have to improve working conditions to regain and retain workers. If these people stop selling their souls just to work at a big company, they can work in an adjacent career path while working together with friends to create the videogames they want, perhaps not on as big of a budget, and eventually help toggle these giants of the industry. Most of whom have no retained talent themselves because their own hubris prevents it.

  14. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! by Chas · · Score: 1

    Excuse me while I laugh my ass completely off...

    No...

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  15. Bad companies invite unions by WCMI92 · · Score: 1

    EA, Activision, et all. They deserve this.

    --
    Corporatism != Free Market
  16. They Will Open Fire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The US Tech industry will see developers shot by riot cops before they allow unionisation.
    Silicon Valley will not take the risk. People will be killed if this gains traction, even in video games.

  17. Re:Note the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've never heard that from any company. I haven't heard any genuine secondhand accounts of it either.

    I have.

    One anecdote to counter another.

    We can read the AFL-CIO language right here though. It's not a made up story. It's what they actually said.

    Oh, so you have heard of a genuine second hand account, and were polite enough to point it out.

    Any other lies you want to tell today or will Atlas shrug?

  18. Pfft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But I work in a small tightknit boutique where we see each other as family! That kind of culture and ethos could never change, it's far more important to pursue an artistic vision and produce a work of quality of which we can be justly proud as having pushed the boundaries of what is capable than just go for the money. That would never happen.

  19. What about when the union does nothing to protect? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Informative

    There are some cases in which union protection is important. Unfortunately, they don't always provide that protection, and one wonders why. One case where the union fell flat recently is the proposition in California that passed requiring changes in how EMTs handled emergencies during their breaks. This was promoted as making sure that emergency services were available to all, but they already were. The only change was that the big ambulance firm would no longer have to pay them overtime if they had to drop everything and take a call during their breaks.

    The EMT's union, which I think was the same one that now wants to unionize game developers, declined to write anything in opposition to this proposition, and didn't mount any viable publicity campaign aginst the proposition. Thus, those EMTs who are out to save your life got screwed over.

  20. Oh yes please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead of contributing to your company's success and your own career you can enrich some sleezy mob, er, union bosses, directly out of your own pocket, and they can funnel your money to Democrats almost exclusively whether you agree with or want to vote for them or not, and work to tear down any right-to-work laws and force you into the Borg collective. Pay and promotions will be based strictly on how many years your fat ass has hung around instead of any measurable degree of skill or talent, and everybody will get the same negotiated rates. If you're more talented than that moron over there it won't matter any longer. And don't go above and beyond because you'll probably step on some useless shill's job who has a cousin or a brother-in-law somewhere and he'll scream to his union rep and have you written up. Sounds like a win to me. Hey we're some union assholes and we're here to help... ruin your life.

  21. You should stop mischaracterizing his words by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    to fit your anti-Union narrative. Then you can believe that the AFL-CIO guy has the right idea. Does he have his own agenda? Hell yeah. So do I. I want to shift the country left so I can get single payer healthcare and my friends and family get guaranteed access to the stuff. Unions are part of that since it's hard to move left when the electorate is struggling to survive.

    An agenda isn't a bad thing when your interests align. Assuming you're not planing to make a career as a right wing troll ala Roger Stone or Karl Rove then your interest are aligned with mine. Heck, even then most guys don't make it to Stone or Rove's level. They get ground up into paste by the machine.

    --
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    1. Re: You should stop mischaracterizing his words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think you're going to live in a socialist utopia with free health care, college tuition, and a guaranteed government paycheck.

      Instead, you'll be living in an 8x8 cement housing slum, working 14 hours a day, still poor, still stupid, but also your neighbors killed and ate your dog.

      You people are so fucking stupid. Your shit isn't fresh or new. It won't be better THIS time. The things that you demand demonstrably lead to hell, will cause the death of millions, and will only make life better for a very select few of which you won't be a member.

    2. Re:You should stop mischaracterizing his words by Kohath · · Score: 1

      People can judge for themselves. They should ask themselves how envy will lead to happiness and contentment and goodwill.

    3. Re: You should stop mischaracterizing his words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before unions is actually what you describe. You should read some history before the 20th century 1870s -1890s).

      You are actually arguing for that return because of your weak grasp of history and listening to too much faux news.

    4. Re: You should stop mischaracterizing his words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet, European countries with a functional labor movements (i.e. most of them) have none of those problems. You realize labor unions are the reason why why have 40-hour work weeks in the US, right?

    5. Re: You should stop mischaracterizing his words by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      My brother - defending the interests of labor against capital is not a left/right issue. Fascists, small-c communists, big-C Communists, traditionalists, distributists, nationalists, monarchists, theocrats, agrarians, anarchists, socialists, and paleo-conservatives all have a long history of opposition to parasitic capitalism.

      Solidarity means ALL of us standing together.

    6. Re: You should stop mischaracterizing his words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best part of Europe is full of unemployed youth, general misery and a 60 percent tax rate for workers.

      Germany is full of Working Poor.

      Population is replaced by random Arabs and Africans, because Germans cannot afford kids.

      I know because I am German.

    7. Re:You should stop mischaracterizing his words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you admit that you're a thoughtless child whose only concern is his own material benefit without regard for any and all potential consequences for society.

  22. Good idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now you just need to get a hold of a time machine so you can go back and make those deals before the mass lay-offs.

  23. The president of the AFL-CIO makes $300k by rsilvergun · · Score: 1, Insightful

    for an organization with 12.5 million (que Dr Evil pinky) members. That's 2.4 cents per person. If he's in it for himself he's doing a _terrible_ job of it.

    He'd be much better off going into Televangist work. Creflo Dollar's worth $27 million and has been doing his schtick for about 30 years (give or take). That's about $900k/yr. He did that on the backs of just 30,000 folks in his church.

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  24. Germany's much smaller than the US by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    with a more centralized workforce. You need a big organization like the AFL-CIO so that folks in one industry can strike and be supported by folks half a world away until the strike's over.

    And I mentioned this on another thread but the big wigs don't make all that much. It only sounds like a lot down in the trenches because we've lost so much ground over the years. Their president makes $300k/yr, which is ridiculously low for an organization the size of the AFL-CIO. The chick with a nice rack who hocks pharmaceuticals at doctor's offices makes that (seriously, I know one).

    $300k/yr doesn't make you anybody's master. What it does get you is access to a network of workers who'll support you when you strike and who you'll support when they strike. AKA "solidarity". You have to do it nationally or they just move to a new state every time you try it.

    --
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    1. Re:Germany's much smaller than the US by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Sales commissions? You're conflating things. We've also seen strikes over ridiculous demands supported by others so that's not a great argument. Mindless solidarity is just.... Well, they have flags for that.

    2. Re:Germany's much smaller than the US by Cederic · · Score: 0

      You need a big organization like the AFL-CIO so that folks in one industry can strike and be supported by folks half a world away until the strike's over.

      That's entirely fucking orthogonal to your point about German unions and centralised workforce, except possibly being proven entirely fucking wrong by it.

      . Their president makes $300k/yr, which is ridiculously low

      No. It's not.

      a network of workers who'll support you when you strike and who you'll support when they strike

      Fuck that. You strike, it's on you. Don't be expecting me to support you. I'm not asking for handouts when I quit my job because I don't like it.

      You have to do it nationally or they just move to a new state every time you try it.

      So they move to a new country instead. See also: The last forty years.

      Apply for a job, negotiate your pay and conditions and if you don't like it, get a new one. It's not fucking hard.

  25. Unions make US brands look elsewhere by AHuxley · · Score: 0

    Who wants to pay a US "game" professional union wages?
    With overtime?
    English speaking nations with different tax laws and exchange rates exist.
    Their workers can code and can be further educated to new learn game code.
    Their university system educates on merit. Math and code. Their artists can paint, draw, animate. They have musicians ready for any type of game.
    Their nations gov will offer code education, great tax concessions to attract any type of new US investment and no US style activity.
    Low cost housing, low crime, clean streets, a supportive government, healthcare and low tax rates to attract US investment.
    Contrast that with a CA, its living and working conditions, changing tax rates and gov who wants to fully regulate your employee cafeterias.
    Well educated english speaking nations are ready and waiting for the US to go full union and will be accepting of US brands setting up new workforces.

    No protests, no demands, no direct action, no flying picket, no grievance procedure, no social media at the picket line, no sympathy strike, no work to rule.


    Who would risk their digital brand and digital support reputation by telling users who buy their game software that all support is out on a sympathy strike?
    That GPU support will take months due to another strike in the USA?
    That the needed patch to keep a game working will be weeks late due to wage issues and US union demands?
    That a game that has to be ready and that all the creative media release work says will be ready is not ready due to a strike?

    The brand and investors took all the risk in digital game production.
    Now they have to give it all away to unions? Thats future investment lost to wage demands.
    Go full union, see how that works out for US code jobs. Nations can learn to code and their wages/gov will attract US investment away from US union workers.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:Unions make US brands look elsewhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Who wants to pay a US "game" professional union wages?"

      Not one single gaming corporation. None. Period. End of story.

      If a gaming corporation (or otherwise) could pay slave wages and get away with it, it would. That's the nature of corporations. Amoral.

  26. Re:What about when the union does nothing to prote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So a union doesn't work in one case, let's just not bother with them any more? Sure.

    In unrelated news, chemotherapy didn't work against an area man's cancer, so it's been decided to stop chemotherapy for all future cancer patients.

  27. Re:What about when the union does nothing to prote by youngone · · Score: 1

    the big ambulance firm

    There's your problem right there.

  28. Counter-example: the unionized movie industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Point dis-proven.

  29. As a union developer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I say go for it. The union kept me out of a firing line for layoffs where I'm at and management was doing a spin the bottle of sorts for layoffs. Afterwards my direct boss told me I made the right choice staying in the union when I was asked to switch over once. Saved my bacon even after I worked on projects that ultimately saved them tons of money.

  30. Re:Note the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One Pro-Union Troll heard from.

    Fuck off. This conversation is for non-trolls only. If you don't have anything useful to add, or any evidence to the contrary. Simple gainsay of what the other poster said isn't an argument. Next!

  31. \o/ by easyTree · · Score: 1

    They get rich. They get notoriety. They get to be crowned visionaries and regarded as pioneers. What do you get? Outrageous hours and inadequate paychecks. Stressful, toxic work conditions that push you to your physical and mental limits. The fear that asking for better means risking your dream job

    Welcome to the world of employment.

    Please queue by the meat grinder on the left for your pay cheque.

  32. Re:Note the language by youngone · · Score: 2

    I've never heard that from any company.

    The multi-billion dollar corporation I work for is doing just this to the guys who make the products we sell right now.
    Endless cost-cutting has resulted in poor quality, meaning customers leaving. Guess who is being told they have to take a pay cut?
    If you've guessed the CEO I have a bridge to sell you.

  33. Re:Note the language by Kohath · · Score: 1

    I've never heard that from any company.

    The multi-billion dollar corporation I work for is doing just this to the guys who make the products we sell right now.

    Endless cost-cutting has resulted in poor quality, meaning customers leaving. Guess who is being told they have to take a pay cut?

    If you've guessed the CEO I have a bridge to sell you.

    And now I still don’t think I've heard a genuine secondhand account.

    Unemployment is 4%.

  34. NO devs lost jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No stem employees lost jobs at activision. It was marketing and publicity people who couldn't "learn to code' who lost jobs. When house gets cleaned, those are the people who are expendable.

  35. Local Union President Here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For years as union president. Total compensation = 0. Sorry if the facts contradict your opinions.

  36. Re:What about when the union does nothing to prote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have a Twinkie.

    Remind me how it's just one case?

  37. Will only lead to more outsourcing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, lets outsource more jobs to India and China. Because this has worked well for other union jobs. Maybe the next generation of game developers can vote for the next Trump who will promise to bring those jobs back.

  38. Re:Note the language by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

    One anecdote to counter another.

    Lessee, one from Kohath and a 'rebuttal' from an AC. You lose, AC. Moniker posts of anecdotes may be suspect but AC posts of anecdotes are totally worthless.

  39. I wish I could tell you it would improve things by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 2

    Doing so, however, would be a lie.

    Vlad30 nailed it in his post and had his Score not already been maxed out, I would have tossed some mod points his way.

    I've worked within the confines of a Unionized company for more than twenty years now and, to be honest, they impress me less and less every year. Thankfully / hopefully, I will retire from this circus soon.

    When contract negotiations begin, Union Leadership will fight tooth and nail for two things:

    1) Maintaining or adding head count
    2) Pay raises for their members

    While the hard core Unionites will disagree with me, the Union fights for the above for one reason only: Getting one or both ultimately leads to more Union Dues being paid to the Union. ( #1 is obvious, #2 is because Union Dues are a percentage of a Union Members base pay. So a pay raise for the member = a pay raise for the Union )

    That's it. That's all. That is the ONLY goal the Union has. Make. More. Money.

    This is why our healthcare premiums keep increasing every year because the Union doesn't give a damn about how much their members have to pay out of pocket for health insurance. As long as they get their dues, everything is golden. No one seems to notice that their meager annual raise gets negated by the rising health care premiums.

    Sometimes I wonder if the Union has a secret agreement with the company during negotiations to get that paltry raise and / or headcount in exchange for allowing the company to dump more of its healthcare costs on their employees. The Union doesn't lose anything in the process, so it's a Win-Win for them. Not so much for the employees though.

    That said, the other problem with Unionizing is mediocrity.

    The Rockstars will do their thing for a while, until they ask themselves why they're busting their ass while the Idiot ( who doesn't even know how to turn his computer on without help ) is making the exact same pay and benefits. Eventually, they give up, scale back their efforts and their light doesn't shine quite as brightly as it used to.

    On the flip side, the Idiot realizes he doesn't really need to bust his ass like the Rockstar does since they are making the same pay and benefits. There isn't any motivation or incentive here to learn or increase their productivity because, in a Union, there can't be a pay / benefit difference for those performing the same work. This person does just enough so they don't get fired.

    As a result, over time, the performance of any given group tends to trend downwards towards the Idiot side of things. They meet somewhere in the middle and you end up with a team who is mediocre at best.

    The final insult is when the layoffs start. Once Unionized, your amazing Rockstar skills are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is Seniority. Whomever has been there the longest, will have the most Seniority. Layoffs start from the least Senior and work their way up to the top. So if you're a Rockstar who has been there for five years, but the Idiot has been there longer, guess who gets the axe first ? :|

    Once upon a time, the Unions definitely had their place in the working world. These days, however, I think they've been corrupted by the money they bring in and the idea that they represent their members is merely a smokescreen for their true agenda.

    That being: Make as much money as they can at the expense of those they're pretending to represent.

    1. Re:I wish I could tell you it would improve things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a result, over time, the performance of any given group tends to trend downwards towards the Idiot side of things. They meet somewhere in the middle and you end up with a team who is mediocre at best.

      That must be why the Germans make such shitty automobiles. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

    2. Re:I wish I could tell you it would improve things by Cederic · · Score: 1

      That said, the other problem with Unionizing is mediocrity.

      I've yet to see a union advocate argue that one away either.

      Technically a union can support and demand training and reskilling for employees. The ones in Germany and the UK do.

      In the UK at least, that doesn't however sufficiently compensate for the sheer difficulty they cause in removing incompetent fuckwits.

    3. Re:I wish I could tell you it would improve things by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      I've yet to see a union advocate argue that one away either.

      Could always ask one as its an easy one to answer. The "unions just protect the lazy" trope is built on the notion that Bill, union worker, is happy to run over and do his own job plus Steve's when Steve slacks off or doesn't know what he's doing. Or that Mary, 3rd grade teacher, is ecstatic to have to reteach math for some of her incoming students because their second grade teacher was incompetent at it.

      But of course humans aren't built that way. Which makes this anti-union trope both obnoxious and facile.

    4. Re:I wish I could tell you it would improve things by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Are you shitting me?
      Bill bitches, the union complains that the company hasn't trained Steve properly and the managers are bullying him.
      Mary bitches, the union complains that the Government keep changing education standards.

      Meanwhile the school tries to sack that second grade teacher, gets sued for wrongful dismissal, sexism, bullying, creating a hostile workplace and treating staff as a disposable resource.

      Which makes this anti-union trope both obnoxious and facile.

      Unions protect mediocrity. That's not a trope.

    5. Re:I wish I could tell you it would improve things by Uberbah · · Score: 2

      That's it. That's all. That is the ONLY goal the Union has. Make. More. Money.

      Which is a total sin in an organization where the CEO and the shareholders Want. To. Make. More. Money? You do know that union. operations. cost. money? Negotiating, recruiting and lobbying - same thing the company does with the profits you produce, but class traitors like yourself never have a problem with?

      This is why our healthcare premiums keep increasing every year because the Union doesn't give a damn about how much their members have to pay out of pocket for health insurance. As long as they get their dues, everything is golden. No one seems to notice that their meager annual raise gets negated by the rising health care premiums.

      You're so wrapped up in your anti-union Hatorade that you don't even notice that one of your main complaints is that the union doesn't have far more power to force more concessions out of the company.

      That said, the other problem with Unionizing is mediocrity.

      More bullshit. The "unions just protect the lazy" trope is dependent on the notion that you're happy to run over and do you job plus Steve's when Steve slacks off or doesn't know what he's doing. Human beings of course are not built that way.

      The final insult is when the layoffs start. Once Unionized, your amazing Rockstar skills are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is Seniority. Whomever has been there the longest, will have the most Seniority. Layoffs start from the least Senior and work their way up to the top. So if you're a Rockstar who has been there for five years, but the Idiot has been there longer, guess who gets the axe first ? :|

      The five year idiot who think's he's a rockstar but has just been sniffing his own farts the entire time.

    6. Re:I wish I could tell you it would improve things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You miss the bigger problem with game dev unionisation: the culture problem in question lies as much with the devs as it does with the management.

      Make no mistake, if you're not pulling all nighters you're a slacker and not part of the team. Unworthy. No matter how good your output is, even if it actually exceeds quantity and quality vs those working all hours (because you come in every day refreshed and are actually more skilled).

      Management don't actually need to lift a finger because the peer pressure from your 'colleagues' is generally enough. And if it ain't, there's a horde of fresh postgrads out there with stars in their eyes about being 'in the games industry' to replace you. I can't see how unions will solve this.

      I got out after 3 1/2 years and have never looked back. My salary (which skirted around minimum wage) doubled in the year following. I now earn over 10x that amount - and I am appreciated for my skill. Plus any OT is paid.

  40. Senseless argument. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rejecting self serving political leaders is equatable to wanting an experienced virgin for a wife. That self interest is what makes them stick in the filth and acquire the skills and connections necessary to get what their voters - or in the American version, their donors - want.
    The only problem with Unions is that they're too easily bought. by the industry and aren't as well connected to the mafia as they were in the good old days. Back in Ford days, and employer messing with the workers wouldn't worry bout how much it would cost to bribe the judge. They'd worry about their sons and daughters corpses floating top the river. And even that barely got workers anything.

  41. Re: I wish I could tell you it would improve thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The next time you go to the DMV remember that the point of their job is to serve the customers, you. Will you buy video games developed by people as competent at development as the DMV is at service.

  42. Re:Note the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Methinks Oli doth protest too much.

  43. "Robust competition" didn't win rights, residuals, by Uberbah · · Score: 2

    ...or freedom from studio contracts that kept actors chained to MGM et all. Unions did that. Remember the writers strike from a few years ago? Where studios used loopholes to not pay writers for content streamed online, that the studios were profiting from? The word begins with a u...

    Apparently not much, as two of the five companies with the worst CEO to median worker pay ratio are film studios, and a third is a TV studio.

    So another union-bashing post were one of the primary complaints is...that unions don't have vastly more power than they do now. So what would you have them do? Seize the means of production, comrade? Would it be enough to take the board of directors hostage until the cave to demands, or would you recommend breaking out the guillotines?

    But, back to residuals. All those episodes of old TV shows on streaming services or broadcast TV? Writers and actors get a check for that. Small checks but they get them. When someone buys a bundle of old games on Steam, EA may get a check, but the original programmers don't.

  44. If it means one colored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    not one green dollar

  45. Re: Note the language by astrofurter · · Score: 1

    "Unemployment is 4%."

    During Stalin's famines the Soviet statistical agency reported record harvests.

    Keep on believin'!

  46. Re: I wish I could tell you it would improve thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Germany will cease to exist in a few decades, because Germans have no money, no time for kids.

    The turks, Arabs and Africans Merkel and her fellow moneychangers import, are Germans by documents only.

    It will be Allahmania soon. A kind of cold Lebanon.

  47. You are not a union leader. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So your feelings are based on YOUR feelings, not reality. So why do you feel like you want the union leaders to be more in it for themselves? Because unions are only the way for workers to get equal bargaining power in the labour market and you don't want commercial businesses put at equality, you want a massive imbalance in their favour. So if you see union leaders you suddenly want them to be bad people, screwing others over.

    Yet not once do you exhort that businesses should get rid of managers, managers who you will, if pushed, admit that they are more in it for themselves than they are for the business benefit, if only because not doing so would paint you as extremist and blinkered.

    So if you were correct, and you have nothing other than your own personal desires, either to exploit others (so you would do so as a union leader and therefore presume everyone else does too) or to protect the privileges of the capital class over the working class, then why are you not exhorting to the expulsion of AT LEAST the C*O and boards.

    Here's a test for you. Go find a board member of a business that is publicly traded, therefore the people put forward are voted for by shareholders, that is not also in at least four other jobs.

    Now if that business goes under, they've lost less than 20% of their pay. Those who have only the one job in that company lose 100%.

    Now what makes you think that a board whose investment of their livelihood is one fifth has the best interests OF that business in mind?

  48. You've never looked, then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Or you've looked for the "wrong things", i.e. you've looked for higher returns or something to do with capitalist "winning".

    Pay is better when unionised. That weekend you get off? Unions did that. Minimum wage? Unions. Go tell me that if there were no minimum wage those on minimum wage would be better off.

    1. Re: You've never looked, then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're incoherent.

      My weekends off at my non-union job have been that way for literally centuries.

      Thanks, Catholic church. Fuck your communist lies.

    2. Re: You've never looked, then by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      Thanks, Catholic church.

      No, that's Sunday off. You get Saturday off because of the efforts of Unions, and the need for non-union employers to match their benefits.

  49. And I've never heard a union say it either. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But what I have seen is CEOs deliberately killing a company to cash in while there is some value there. I've seen CEOs who were given massive payrises in the good times for their "sterling work in increasing profits" then given massive payrises in the bad times to "incentivise the best to turn this company around", and in both cases the workers got canned and reduced pay.

  50. Business leaders are always corrupt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the only way to even the playing field for the workers is to unionise.

    Or are you going to demand that we disband corporations and have owner-run businesses only, since even you will have to admit that business leaders are frequently corrupt, so if we should not have unions, then we should not have business managers.

  51. Re:Note the language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If your job can be given to someone living off $5/hr why shouldn't it? Do you deserve it more than them? Does your family deserve to make a living more than them? America has been shouting "Compete!" to the world since after WW2. The rest of the world heard.

  52. Is being in the workforce required or not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If working there requires me to be part of the workforce, under the general rule of management and the business working rules, then in what way is it ANY different to it being a union required worplace too?

    Yet you will only whinge about the VERY FEW places that are union workplaces (and do you want the non union workers getting the benefits of the union negotiated payrise? If not, then the non union workers will have to negotiate their own payrise personally, and no business wants that expense, meaning the non union workers will get no payrises) but not the 100% of places that do not require you to sign up to management rule.

    After all, if the job is to make widget X, then as long as I make widget X, why does there need to be any agreement to anything else? What I wear is irrelevant. What I say is irrelevant, what I do other than that is irrelevant. How many jobs have you heard (I presume you have not had any jobs personally) with "other duties as required"? Every damn one of them. Take it from me. And if I don't do them, then I am in the wrong and disciplined.

    So why does there need to be management at all?

    I make widgetX, I need to make 15000 in a month. I make 15000 by day 22 and I go home for the rest of the month.

    Why would management put me up for disciplinary action for absenteeism?

    Why is wearing jeans and T shirt EVER part of my job?

    And why do I have to agree to ANY contract, other than "Thou shalt make 15,000 WidgetX each month"?

    Mangement should be there to ensure that I get the stuff to make widgetX, count me making widgetX and properly (or pay someone to do so), and sell the stuff. EVERYTHING else is and should be irrelevant and not an agreement between us.

    Yet they demand I agree to terms and conditions above and beyond that.

    Including "and other duties as assigned".

    Yet you don't care, you only want to demand that somehow being "forced" into unionising with others is bad. Never complain about being forced into working more than the job requirements.

  53. Re:"Robust competition" didn't win rights, residua by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's sure given me a good standard of living though. I live in the 3rd world and have been outcompeting american out of jobs for 15 years. Already have enough for retirement, all the work I'm doing presently is just gravy. Unionizing will just make the lives of people like me better.

  54. A Business failed. CEO did not save it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Therefore we should not have CEOs.

    You're a moron.

  55. fools, simpletons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unions do not cause out sourcing or migration of business. The level of exploitation and oppression does! Want to be poisoned by your local factory and make slave wages? Then you can compete against the shitholes of the world too! Unions have little to do with it other than to create an excuse and a target for propaganda who doesn't have the funding to counter it..

    management is everything; for the business and the union and the government. the type of system does not matter as much as the people it runs upon. just as crap hardware will suck with linux or any other OS.

    ALL the same flaws in management happen in all kinds of organizations. These stupid arguments should be leveled against humans and for AI replacing management.

    1. Re:fools, simpletons by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      AC "management" will just look around the world and find a nation with people who can code.
      Governments that will lower the tax rate and who will welcome investment.
      No "management" would sit around and pay more for the same product with the risk of union activity.
      Management of digital brands have the wealth and ability to move away from union activity in a city and state .

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  56. Lol unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unions have become completely powerless since globalization zeroes their bargaining power. There is no industry now that cannot be outsourced or moved elsewhere. Everybody knows that. The class struggle is over and the worker class has lost. Adapt.

  57. Re: I wish I could tell you it would improve thin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You see this as a bad thing. I do not. I will toast to the extinction of the German people and cheer the destruction of German culture.

  58. We've let Unions get gutted for 40 years by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you don't maintain a thing it breaks down. What did you expect? Try skipping your cars oil changes for 40 years and let me know how that turns out for you. And do that while somebody is putting sugar in your tank.

    We need to start passing pro-Union laws to protect American's collective bargaining rights again. Eliminating "right to work" (my God the right wing is good at marketing) laws is a good start. Also we need a ton of new laws banning companies from punishing workers for Unionizing. And anti Union busting laws too.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:We've let Unions get gutted for 40 years by basecastula+ · · Score: 1

      Vote SWP.

    2. Re:We've let Unions get gutted for 40 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right to work laws are fine. All unions need to do is stop negotiating exclusive bargaining rights contracts with companies and allow other unions to compete with them for negotiating for a given type of employee. They'd rather rest on their laurels and complain about the freeloaders instead of risk losing the membership because the organized workers feel ineffectively represented.

  59. Are you fucking kidding me? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    the Screen actors guild has for decades insured actors get paid for work. Yeah, everybody points to Tom Cruise's big paydays and forgets all the smaller productions out there.

    And don't forget all the blue collar folks who make movies happen. Sets don't build themselves. I know guys who did that work and they wouldn't trade their Union for anything.

    As for Income inequity, their Union got them better pay. If the boss makes 100,000,000,000/yr and your making $100,000 yeah, income inequality is pretty bad there. But your Union (and you too, don't forget, the Union is Yout!) got you that $100k. They'd pay you $20k if they could get a way with it and without a Union to negotiate they would.

    I think I finally see the problem though (if I may go a bit off topic). People have stopped thinking of themselves as "Union" and started thinking of a Union as a third party negotiator you just happen to hire. Folks forgot what it is to actually _belong_ to a Union. Now I wonder who put that idea into their heads

    --
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  60. Germany puts the lie to that booltlicking by Uberbah · · Score: 1
  61. People can't _negotiate_ by themselves by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    and we're way past envy. 32,000 Americans will die of treatable illnesses this year. A decade ago it was 45k but the ACA slowed it down.

    We got that because people banded together against the insurance companies. It's the same for wages. I can break a stick. Bind a hundred of them and I can't break it anymore. Ancient fucking China figured that out. Why the hell can't you? They're gonna eat you alive.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:People can't _negotiate_ by themselves by Kohath · · Score: 1

      You don’t sound happy. Why would anyone want to share your attitude? It means they can never be happy. They always need to try to fight their neighbors, so they can find a way to steal their neighbors' money. It's a sad way to live.

      It's especially sad because you never end up getting your neighbors' money, and even if you do get a tiny fraction of what you want, you ultimately won't get to keep it. Your neighbors will mount a defense and get it back, or you'll end up turning a rich country into a place where regular people starve, like Venezuela.

      All that wasted effort could have been spent building something, or learning, or helping your fellow man instead of trying to steal from him.

  62. German unions won 28h work week by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne...

    Your feudal overlords sure do appreciate your keeping their boots clean pro-bono.

  63. Sure They Did by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Game developers will never get a union. The companies will off-shore the labor before they pay more than minimum wage. Every kid with an X-box seems to think that being a game developer would be cool. It's not, it's crap work, and nothing like playing those games. The union is simply making a power move to get more people in and collect more union dues.

  64. Hyperbad by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    Here we come!

  65. Re: Socialist drivel by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    Criemer is that you?

  66. Re: Note the language by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    I have. It depends where you work. They won't use that exact verbage but it will be along theines of wow that cheap contractor we only pay 20 an hour wrote more lines of code than you with an an uncomfortable laugh or now how many tickets did you do? Are overseas teams handled more?

    Then the boss will look at your phone on your desk and go hmm and walk away and make the assumption you text or are on Facebook and don't work like the Indians do. This of course in an effort to scare you or let you know he is not happy with your performance and let you know he can get more for less if you don't speed up etc.

  67. Unions vs Corporations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know people who were physically threatened for crossing a union. I don't know anyone who has been physically threatened for crossing a corporation. Both have examples of downsides, but the union downsides are much worse.

  68. Re:Note the language by youngone · · Score: 1

    And meanwhile, in the real world those 57 year old guys who have spend 30 years working at the company can just pack up and find another job.
    Oh, hang on. No, they can't

  69. It is a real tragedy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Out economy is controlled by monopolies by greater extent than even 20 years ago. So unionization is needed.

    Unfortunately, US union are simple pension scams by labor lawyers. If you retire with $500k pension it is the same as accumulating $12.5m. And before you retire you make all your kids Union officials too.