New York Mayor Says Amazon Headquarters Debacle Was 'an Abuse of Corporate Power' (cnn.com)

New York Mayor Bill de Blasio is still upset that Amazon isn't coming to New York. De Blasio attacked the company Sunday for canceling plans to build a second headquarters in Queens last week. From a report: "This is an example of an abuse of corporate power," de Blasio told NBC's Chuck Todd on "Meet the Press." "Amazon just took their ball and went home. And what they did was confirm people's worst fears about corporate America." He made similar comments in a New York Times op-ed Saturday. Amazon canceled the deal just months after announcing plans to split its new, second headquarters between New York and Virginia. The Seattle-based company, which is trying to grow its footprint at home and abroad, spent a year reviewing hundreds of "HQ2" proposals from all over North America before settling on the two regions.

[...] On Sunday, de Blasio, a Democrat, said New York offered Amazon a "fair deal," and blamed the company for making what he called an "arbitrary" decision to leave after some people objected. "They said they wanted a partnership, but the minute there were criticisms, they walked away," he added. "What does that say to working people that a company would leave them high and dry simply because some people raised criticisms?"

Comments

Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

After all, they've proven they are suckers

The bad part is: that victim has already been plundered

I'm sure they'll find some red state willing to give them a few billion for hopes and promises

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing how naive people are. A business vying for locations isn't doing it for your communities interests. Any benefits are merely a side effect they'd leverage at the drop of a hat.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Republicans love to be ass-fucked every time. Don't worry, Wisconsin will give Amazon tax breaks for the next 60 years. If the Foxconned deal was wasn't good enough, the Amazon one will be the best. Amazon pays nothing as the state takes care of every expense while Bezos keeps 100% of the profits. Win win.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Hognoxious]

When the rednecks meet the people with 47 genders. They should televise that.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Peak Libtard? You're mocking red states for hypothetically accepting a big corporate deal that YOUR FUCKING BLUE STATE ALREADY ACCEPTED. Amazon is the one that backed out! Because your state is full of greedy hypocrite politicians who tried to leech more money in their pockets. You idiot.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBEXGL1Brw4 - The "Conservative" is upset about someone leeching money out of pockets, eh?

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut the fuck up

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a masters in transgender unicorn studies and I can tell you there are not 47 genders, there are only 7.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Profits to corps.
Extinction Event to everybody!

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[jellomizer]

This is why we need to make sure all levels of government affected by such actions are involved.
Yes the US style of government is slow and clumsy. However, companies will need to work with them, to help make sure that they are indeed providing such a side effect benefit to the community, while they use that location to make gobs of money.
People who live a few hundred miles north of New York City know the cost of having a big company being center of a community, only for it to leave devastating the community.

GE use to be centered in Schenectady NY (Near Albany). GE made Schenectady the City of Lights, and was the Silicon Valley a hundred years ago. While GE still has a presence there, it is a shadow of its former self. Where many engineers have been laid off decades ago, turning the city into a run down post industrial city, with its last hopes in a revitalization is a casino. With the Hudson River still polluted for hundreds of Miles from GE's free capitalist actions.

Jobs are good, however the company needs to be sure they are also working for the community, for a long term plan. While not a company doesn't need to be hyper Green, they need to follow and volunteer to perform reasonable environmental protection, and not just leave the city, because they found a better deal the city over in the next decade.
They are cities that are run down, because they were built up for a population that it no longer can achieve, it is far more expensive to maintain a big structure, with a smaller tax base.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[jellomizer]

You know, New York isn't really a Blue State. Just because the President elections and senate will tend to be Blue, The house of representatives will often get a good mixture of Democrat and Republican. New York, is a large state, with a lot of Rural areas, and a lot of people who are Very Red. I can drive up the roads and I see Trump Signs. Yellow Don't Tread on me, Tea Party Flags, Signs fighting the "New York Safe Act" on gun control. You will actually see more of these then Blue advertising.
New York is actually a purple state, It is just New York City is such a large city, that it makes elections based on the entire state vote trend Blue.
The Governor while a democrat, and has been on the news lately bashing Trump, has a conservative streak in him, often managing the State Senate keeping it a Republican majority for a long time. The state senate had switched recently. Mostly because Trump is such a bad excuse for a human being, and too many Republicans are ditching their values to support him. So there was a backlash. However I don't see this a long term issue. After Trump leaves office, the Republican party, would get back to their traditional talking points and probably regain power again.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[ShanghaiBill]

I'm sure they'll find some red state willing to give them a few billion for hopes and promises

Good luck finding 25,000 intelligent tech workers in Oklahoma.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[ShanghaiBill]

This is why we need to make sure all levels of government affected by such actions are involved.

Even better, the government can just keep their snoot out of location decisions, and corporations can make the decision based on business efficiency rather than bribe size.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

"free capitalist actions"

Let's not mix up capitalism, which is an economic framework, with (lack of) government regulation.

We can have capitalism with environmental and other regulation. Companies that pollute are freeloaders because the public pays the costs they should have incurred.

When government allows companies to pollute like that, it is asleep at the wheel or corrupt. So please take your communist agenda somewhere else, we will fix the EPA after the guy that was supposed to drain the swamp gets flushed out and a real leader gets elected.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[kenh]

They are taking those jobs to TN & VA, I'm sure people will be willing to move to either for a good-paying job.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Why in the hell would you bring the government in on something like this? Name the last time the government has contributed anything positive to the country? People bitch non-stop about the government and then turn around and demand more government to fix whatever problem they are bitching about. We would have been better off if the government would have remained closed down more than 35 days. The essential government services were still operating. The non-essential services were not operating but if they are non-essential why do we need them on at all?

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Oklahoma's a stretch, but all the intelligence in tech fled the overpriced shithole that is California long ago, and New York has only ever wished it was a hotbed for tech.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

I am guessing this is one of those Russian trolls we keep hearing about. Trying their best to split & pull discussions into the extremes so that fabricated oppositions can't meet somewhere in the grey. I would hate to think someone real actually lives in such a bubble.

Just to correct things, the vast majority of people don't blame all of government. And essential clearly has different definitions between you and the Feds. The emergency weekend contact can't run the daily operations of a data center. This is similar...

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[orlanz]

Most states are actually purple... even California & Texas when you start looking further into candidate positions in the House. But this isn't something that can create scandles and football like sensational news so we get a B&W Red/HeeHaw/Conservative/Repub/TP vs Blue/Tooot/Liberal/Dem/Social talking points that can only divide our nation and never progress to a middle ground that democracy intended.

The reality is that it's a huge range and the extremes shown by the media is a very very small group that the rest of us should really just ignore and get work done. People clumped together as Dems or Reps across state lines usually have more differences than similarities. As a population we arent a two party system. We are just cliff noted as such.

Politics is and should be local. And should be better covered locally. The media needs to stop discussing national politics because they suck at it and tend to over summarize & give a spotlight to those that actually represent no one.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[gtall]

The rednecks already have 47 genders, but they also have an unwritten agreement never to talk about them.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[gtall]

Yes, politics should be covered locally. However, the news industry is consolidating around a few large left-right-wing-nut companies. Those companies won't be covering local news without infected it with national politics.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[dcw3]

When was the last time the state voted for an R for president? 1984 Regan v. Mondale. Pockets of rural Rs don't make a D state any less Blue.

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Rob Y.]

Well, until recently, the New York state government had Republican majorities. Even Republican Governors now and then. So that D majority in New York City must be pretty slim statewide, and not be enough to reliably overcome the gerrymander (either intentional or because of the 'natural' distribution of rural/urban counties) that determines control of the statehouse.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Corps are owned by people, so no.

But I am however, against these stupid one-off deals for corporations. It should be illegal. If you went to go to NYC and set up shop, you don't have the power to negotiate favorable tax breaks. You'd be competing unfailrly with Amazon, or anyone else in your industry who can get these businesses. It is favoritism, plain and simple, and I deplore city and state governments who practice in these sort of deals. If NYC or NY wants to attract business development, they should change their tax code to a more business-friendly scheme. Government shouldn't pick and chose who wins in free market economies.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[jellomizer]

Perhaps my view is squewd, because I live in a town which had its economy collapse overnight, because a company who wasn't well regulated, decided to pollute the water supply.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[saloomy]

Just to make a few things clear:

Amazon didn't pay taxes this year dispite profits because it invested excessively in prior years, and is still writing down that deficit. If you run a business, and it takes many years and a lot of money to R&D, engineer, construct, and operate your business, you get to carry over the red ink from one tax year to another. Think about massive operations like an Oil Refinery, or power station, or a chip fabrication facility that take YEARS to construct. The total cost is very high. The losses in the construction tax years are carried over into the profit tax years until the balance is 0.

Amazon didn't actually pay taxes this year because their deficit was so high from all the expansion they have done. Many tax policies are very short sighted, but this one I whole-heatedly agree with because it encourages investment in long-term projects and is far-sighted in contrast to most other tax policies. Their tax-deference balance is significantly less now, and will soon start to pay taxes on profits. This is the same situation as GE and a lot of the other funny "0% tax rate" fake-news stories you read about. I say fake-news because every reporter writing about tax rates on corporations is smart enough to know that not all investment cycles fit into a tax year.

What I do have a problem with is these large companies working with the local governments to get tax-breaks. That in my opinion should be illegal. It is a subsidy. Instead the corporations should be forced to ask for tax rate changes so all companies get the same rates. Small competitors are effectively at a disadvantage because they don't enjoy the same tax breaks as the large companies can negotiate for. It makes for an un-fair playing field.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Do all businesses get to take part in this "growth stage"? Or is it just the big ones who donate to campaigns?

I guess my question is, me as a small business owner, with 100 employees,
Do I get to take advantage of the same tax loopholes they do? Can I defer my tax payments until next year because I am in the "growing" phase still?

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Shotgun]

Yes. It is called a "carry over loss". Speak to your tax consultant.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, all businesses can carry forward losses from previous years. Their strategy for years has been to heavily reinvest rather than taking a profit.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

All of the business owners who actually have 100+ employees out there are wondering how youâ(TM)d have missed this very simple tax fact. Are you counting a downline in an MLM scheme as employees, or do you know that little about how tax laws impact your business?

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Economics is hard for you isnâ(TM)t it. Go get yourself a box of tissues there little guy.

Re: Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

What's amazing is that you seem to think that this is a zero sum game that either the corporation or the community can "win"... so you end up screwing both, and hating one. Brilliant

Re:Maybe they'll build it in Wisconsin instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like California, population centers are very blue, rural areas are quite red. Lot's of "State of Jefferson" flags flying in far Northern CA.

Tax is for the little people

[youngone]

Amazon don't want to pay tax. They want to profit from doing business in a developed country. They just don't feel the need to help pay to maintain one:
$11.2 billion in profits means you pay -0.1% federal tax. Nice.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Corporations don't pay taxes period, that's just the cost of doing business. You, the consumer, are the ones paying the tax.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[illiac_1962]

The problem is that you expect them to pay tax. Just embrace the reality that they should not and you will be better equipped to deal with this. All the taxes get passed on to workers and customers anyway. Do we want to tax corporation or people? You can't do both! It's like trying to get more energy from a circuit by changing where to connect the wires. Silly, it's all coming from the same battery.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you miss the part about $11.2B in PROFITS

The profits are not going to the consumers, so the consumers wouldn't miss any of that huge pile of money if the govt got a cut.

Your silly talking point is just GOP garbage.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[PopeRatzo]

Corporations don't pay taxes period, that's just the cost of doing business. You, the consumer, are the ones paying the tax.

This is not true, except in the sense that all corporate profits are ultimately from consumers.

Taxes are paid on profits, not on revenue. If you forced Amazon to pay taxes, and they had to accept $8 billion in after-tax profits instead of $11 billion, what are they gonna say, "No, we don't want $8 billion"?

The notion that corporations pass income taxes on to consumers is not supported by any data whatsoever.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you miss the part about $11.2B in PROFITS

The profits are not going to the consumers, so the consumers wouldn't miss any of that huge pile of money if the govt got a cut.

Your silly talking point is just GOP garbage.

At least GP poster had a point.

You're just regurgitating thoughtless progtard anti-corporate garbage based on fooling people into buying into failed and flawed 19th-century economic pipe dreams.

"You can HAZZZ FWEEE STUFFZZZ!!!"

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

The government's right to tax is a settled argument in the USA, sweet pea. I'm sorry your education has let you down. It costs money to run and protect this country. Perhaps Somalia or Ethiopia would be more of your liking.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[cruff]

The notion that corporations pass income taxes on to consumers is not supported by any data whatsoever.

Really? Any sanely run corporation must pass on all costs to the customers or eventually go out of business.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Darinbob]

This isn't GOP garbage, this is cold hard facts that most large businesses do not pay their fair share of taxes on their profits. Any loophole or shelter they can find is used. This is not looked down upon or even hidden, this is considered normal business procedure. The more money you make, including corporations, the easier it is to find ways to avoid paying taxes. This isn't even a matter of flat-rate tax or similar suggestions, the problem is that there are so many ways to just avoid tax.

Municipalities try to find ways to get some tax just to cover the costs of making an infrastructure for these large corporations, which in turn causes these corporations to become offended and try to find a second headquarters or even move overseas because they have an attitude that any tax is an unfair tax. They do play a nasty game though of claiming to bring in jobs and that hypnotizes so many municipal lawmakers into making bad deals that cost more revenue overall. Corporations will *always* lie about the expected number of workers. Some of these companies even manage to fool the feds or the president.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying amazon has a RIGHT to 12B in profit instead of 8B? Remember, it's profit after costs and expenses we're talking about here.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Darinbob]

The part where the profits are increased because government taxes went and paid for infrastructure that they depend upon. Ie, water and sewage for their workers, roads so that workers can arrive at the plants, railroads and bridges so that their goods can be shipped out, a court system so that they can make use of a legal system when they have disputes, police and military to protect their real estate and workers, etc.

Companies do not make money in a vacuum, governments are a vital part of doing business. When a large corporation pays 0% in taxes then they are essentially free-loading off of everyone who does pay tax. Even the most staunch capital-L Libertarian will agree that this is unfair.

And don't say "comrade" as if paying taxes were synonymous with communism, that just makes any argument you had look stupid.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Darinbob]

"Should" not is wrong here. Corporations make great use of government services. We don't have a system that directly applies fees to infrastructure (such as dollars per mile spent shipping products on roads) then they should be paying their fair share of the load that creates infrastructures and services that they make use of.

When they make tons of profits and the workers are barely making ends meet with diminishing salaries, why is it more appropriate for citizens to pay taxes rather than corporations?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Hognoxious]

So, where do you think those profits go?

People's salaries, which get income taxed.

I would say that you failed accounting 101, but I doubt you even took it.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

If you utilize the services that those taxes pay for (roads, planes, electricity, etc etc etc) then it is both immoral AND unethical to not pay your taxes.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Those idiots at itep.org apparently don't understand how tax rebates work: amazon received money they paid to the Feds back because their tax liability was less than what the Feds received. That does not mean their tax liability was negative. Claiming they paid "a negative tax rate" is like claiming everyone that gets a tax refund has negative tax rates: stupid. And of course a company doesn't want to pay taxes, just like you don't want to pay taxes, and if you want to pay taxes nothing is stopping you from giving your money to the gov't.

It's also an outright lie to say these corporations don't pay taxes. They pay property taxes, payroll taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, and any number of other taxes & fees that are "the cost of doing business".

If amazon uses their profits to pay bonuses, the gov't gets income and payroll taxes. If amazon uses their profits to buy and improve lands, they pay state and local taxes, not to mention all the construction jobs that are created (which also pay taxes). If amazon just parks the money in a bank account they may pay income taxes on the interest earned. You cannot be so blissfully ignorant of how tax, corporate, and even personal finance works; you're just pushing a political agenda and ignoring any facts that don't suite your world view, just like those stupid climate change deniers.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course! Which is patently obvious because of your brilliant rejoinder. The one that answered his argument point by point. Wait . . .

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

If that is your view than are you willing to opt out of using any of the resources such as roads, street lights, social security, and public schools.

And while you're at it, protect yourself from the Muslims on your own.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Do we want to tax corporations or people? It doesn't matter which. Corporations are owned by people, extremely wealthy people.

Somehow we have arrived in a position where the top 1% of US citizens have more wealth than the bottom 90%. There is a chasm between the rich and the poor. Taxation is the only sane mechanism we have to redistribute wealth. If Jeff Bezos can amass over $100 Billion while paying virtually no tax, shouldn't we be contemplating an alternative way to allow Amazon to pay for the infrastructure that they use?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

So if I were to say evade the grocery store's food tax, that wouldn't lead you to question my ethics?

How about if I just trick the cashier into putting my steak on your tab? (hey, somebody's gotta pay for it and somebody did so it's all good, right?).

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

> the gubmint is just gonna take the money anyway

Oh wow. There are entire departments dedicated to how wrong you are. They laughed when they pulled off the -0.1% and they're laughing at you now.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

Personal income taxes just end up being paid by hard working corporations. If I have to pay taxes out of my income, I buy less stuff and corporate profits go down.

So do the right thing and abolish personal income tax. Do the right thing and let the corporations pay their taxes out of their profits.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Bezos paid plenty of tax, dumbass. That's the whole point.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

You are doing well repeating your Dem talking points.

Welcome to the divide.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[smoot123]

Corporations don't pay taxes period, that's just the cost of doing business. You, the consumer, are the ones paying the tax.

I'm with you, corporations don't pay taxes. Or more specifically, corporations don't feel the pain of taxes because a corporation is not a human. But I don't think it's a given that consumers bear the burden.

Here's how I think about it. You're going to collect taxes and those taxes are ultimately going to come out of someone's pocket. That person will now have less cash to spend on things they'd like to spend on. This is the true cost of a tax.

Now, who will that person be? It will depend on a lot of specifics. The corporation could lower its dividend, thus paying the tax out of its profits. That will affect the investors and they'll bear the burden. The corporation could raise prices. It could avoid giving employees raises. It could switch to buying less expensive inputs and push the burden onto suppliers.

One could imagine experiments where you try to tease out which of these happens in practice. The entire practice of microeconomics is basically focused on this question. I don't know if anyone has succeeded at this and I don't know of you can deduce any broad generalizations.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

I see your agenda, knuckle dragger.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Hognoxious]

Taxes go up by 20%, so they put their prices up by 20%, right? Wrong! If the market would bear it, they'd already be charging the higher price.

If taxes went down would they drop their prices because Uncle Fester would be going "Hey folks, we've already got enough"?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you even looked at the tax payer breakdown? Go look. We will wait.

Top 10% pay over 70% of the tax burden. The wealthy Dems have been quoted as wanting to be taxed more. They can pay more. No one is stopping them. Bezos is a Dem. Gates is a Dem.

Please quit falling for us vs them diatribe.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Better tell that to the us military, biggest communist parasite organisation on earth, 600B worth.

Let Americans defend themselves as individuals and not free loads on national defence paid by others.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice to see trolls sucking Jeff Bezo's cock.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[youngone]

The problem with expecting the tax load to fall on everyone but the very wealthiest, is that when that idea has been tried, it ended in a succession of wars: here's an example.
One of the revolutionary demands was equality before the law, as in many monarchies in Europe the nobility were the only ones electing the legislature, and paid no tax. Bloodshed ensued.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

It is illegal but not immoral or unethical to evade taxes.

Part of the social contract is that everyone has skin in the game. When you avoid paying taxes that your able to pay your basically saying everyone else should support you. How you can consider that ethical is beyond me.

In fact, it is for this very reason that what Amazon is getting by with on taxes is so insane and wrong. It is also another reason why companies shouldn't be allowed to grow beyond reason, since their power can force through changes that allowed them to carve out their own rules, which is insane.

A level playing field is required. To start with:

1. Undo the last tax bill. We can't afford it.
2. Tax capital gains the same. Income is income.
3. Uncap social security.
4. Get rid of most tax breaks. Justify the few that remain.
5. Then maybe lower the corporate tax a bit, but not to where it was. There is some truth there.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod up : Informative and plainly calling out the coward where it lives.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Kohath]

No one wants to pay much tax. The only people who say they want to pay higher taxes actually want to tax others so they can spend others' money on their own priorities. They're willing to kick in a few dollars so they can spend 10000x as much more money they didn't earn.

So yeah, like anyone, Amazon doesn't want to pay much tax. They don't get a lot of valuable services in return.

(And replying in advance to the usual dumb responses: their delivery vehicles pay plenty of fuel taxes for the roads they use, their buildings pay plenty of property tax for the local fire departments and police departments. They also pay their local water and sewer bill and their employees pay tax for their kids' schooling. I saved you from posting the usual, phony nonsense about local government services: they pay for those.)

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

With amazon, they kind of are... Amazon dump all their profit into new ventures to grow the business - They haven't done a buyback in many years, and they don't do dividends, or any other BS to "return value to shareholders"

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

The social contract has been broken by greed. It's time to void and reinstate a new contract while seizing stolen assets from the thieves robbing society.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

He just has to wait a few more years. Always hilarious to see the party of wholesale Somali importation try to use Somalia as a negative in an argument.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Its employees pay local tax, its suppliers pay local tax. The effect of economic multiplier of the local economy alone is worth doing it.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Kohath]

- Amazon's delivery drivers pay fuel taxes for roads.
- Amazon's buildings pay property tax for fire and police protection.
- Amazon’s buildings pay sewer and water bills and electricity bills just like everyone else's.
- Amazon's employees pay income tax and sales tax and property tax for their kids' school.
- Amazon pays payroll taxes just like every other employer.

They pay for the services they get. Most of the rest goes for government giveaways.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[hjf]

The problem is, even with your fanboy defense of corporate tax fraud, you are still paying taxes. They aren't.
Focus on changing the laws so YOU pay no taxes. Don't worry about fighting their fight. They have deeper pockets and more lobbyists than you.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention trade deals that are backed by gubments that allow goods and services to be sold to other contries.

Honestly the anti-taxxers are a real bunch of maroons. Corporations are reducing them to workhouse conditions with the false promise that, if they work super duper hard, they can become just as rich and successful as they are (leaving out the the fact that they broke every rule and law they could on their "hard work" march to the top, and the ones they couldn't they bribed or lobbyied to get changed to give them the advantage that those who came before (and they hope those who come after) didn't (and don't) have.

Every small business owner and operator who thinks low tax low regulation is good needs to be met with a swift punch to the face and given a free ticket out of the country to whatever banana republic they feel "free"ist in. Once they see how bad things do get in those environments (organized crime has no problems being "legit" businesses there), I hope the last they they see is their families realizing how much of an idiot they had become.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

No that would lead me to kick your butt then steal your steak. You clearly didn't pay for law enforcement with taxes. Nor legal representation. You, are in fact no longer a citizen so I'm free to declare you an enemy combatant and kill you on the spot.

Go on then. We are all waiting. Some of us can't friggin wait in fact....

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I enjoy taking stuff and money from corporations from time to time. And I don't feel bad about it.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[mlyle]

> Most of the rest goes for government giveaways.

Like the $1.2B in refundable tax credits that Amazon demanded to move to NY, and $500M in capital grants to build facilities with. It takes a long, long time of a couple percent of property tax to pay these things back, let alone pay for the services they're consuming in the meantime.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Kohath]

The problem is, even with your fanboy defense of corporate tax fraud, you are still paying taxes. They aren't.
Focus on changing the laws so YOU pay no taxes. Don't worry about fighting their fight. They have deeper pockets and more lobbyists than you.

They won't be charged with fraud. Because they didn’t commit any fraud.

If liars can lie about Amazon, liars can lie about me or anyone else. If taxers can loot Amazon, taxers can loot me or anyone else.

No one is safe until we are all safe.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you miss the part about $11.2B in PROFITS

The profits are not going to the consumers, so the consumers wouldn't miss any of that huge pile of money if the govt got a cut.

Your silly talking point is just GOP garbage.

At least GP poster had a point.

You're just regurgitating thoughtless progtard anti-corporate garbage based on fooling people into buying into failed and flawed 19th-century economic pipe dreams.

"You can HAZZZ FWEEE STUFFZZZ!!!"

More like successful mid 20th century economic policies before the Randian nonsense which has generated wealth disparity not seen since the manor system.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Kohath]

Keeping the money you earned isn't a giveaway.

And Amazon told New York where they could stick that deal. Some other place will get 25000 more high-paying jobs, and they won't have to offer Amazon nearly as much of a rebate because other jurisdictions aren't so greedy for taxes in the first place. And other places' elected officials might even live up to the terms of the deals they negotiate.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you miss the part about $11.2B in PROFITS

The profits are not going to the consumers, so the consumers wouldn't miss any of that huge pile of money if the govt got a cut.

Your silly talking point is just GOP garbage.

At least GP poster had a point.

You're just regurgitating thoughtless progtard anti-corporate garbage based on fooling people into buying into failed and flawed 19th-century economic pipe dreams.

"You can HAZZZ FWEEE STUFFZZZ!!!"

More like successful mid 20th century economic policies before the Randian nonsense which has generated wealth disparity not seen since the manor system.

Yep.

I got a name for it: The Great Leap Forward.

If we're lucky, our arrogance in knowing so much more then everyone that came before us will allow us to keep starvation deaths below 10 million or so.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Bug Amazon doesn't ship anything out of the country nor do business under charters set up through free and reciprocal trades deals ... and so don't need to pay taxes because the underlings do it for them.

Honest to friggin geebus these idiot just keep getting dumber and dumber. I wonder how large a group of them you'd have to get together before finding just one that has taken a civics class or any kind of ethics class or is just naturally not an A1 sociopath with some tiny degree of empathy. Just one ... better chances of finding a snowball ball in Hades.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Free stuffs like police and fire departments? Trade deals that allow the buying and selling of foriegn goods domestically and domestic goods internationally? A military to both back up those trade deals and run down baddies when needed?

That free stuff?

If you honestly think that, you should probably be living in a failed state somewhere. A place where you can pay directly for all that stuff and not share the cost with anyone else. You should be able to afford like, probably two, maybe three guys. For a week or so ... Until a larger force comes along, you know one of those "free" things you hate so much that is paid for by a responsible national citizenry, and wipes you off the map and steals all your hundreds of dollars worth of funny money.

Why funny money you ask? One more thing in a long, long list of "free" things you wouldn't be getting....

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

You're preaching to the choir here. My questions were to someone who doesn't think it's immoral or unethical to evade taxes.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[ChrisMaple]

"Maroon" is a racial slur.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[ChrisMaple]

The social contract has been broken by governmental greed. It's time to void and reinstate a new contract while seizing stolen assets from the governmental thieves robbing society.

FTFY

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

You responded to "Horn Wumpus" who perhaps ironically or pro sequitur blurted out how he considers his greatest "talent" to be lying to achieve his ends. Literally, he bragged about what a great liar he thought he was.

The distance between him and Donald Trump is just a 380 million dollar tax-defrauded inheritance, and maybe a competent golf game. The immorality of tax cheats generally PALES in comparison to our sitting President.

"Horn Wumpus" considers these virtues. That's the person you responded to. The enemy of the people, literally.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[WatchMaster]

Amazon is paying all of the tax that they are required to by law. Whiners should be talking to their lawmakers, not criticizing Amazon for following tax laws.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

IF they pay those taxes, sure. But if they get a sweatheart "tax break", then no.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Amazon negotiated a 10% discount on an estimated $30 BN tax bill over the first ten years of the new HQ2/2, while the economics major AOC focused on the loss of $3 BN in tax revenues, she completely missed the net $27 BN in new tax revenues the project would bring to NY State, NY City and the residents of Queens.

Congratulations, now the Democrats are railing against Job Creation!

I like how Mayor De Blasio has decided to try and insult Amazon into returning to Queens.

As Amazon said, they were looking for a partner, they found arguments, and lost interest - they went to Plan B, which is to further build-out their Virginia and Tennessee locations instead. If De Blasio has a problem with Amazon pulling out, he should take it up with Notorious A.O.C., the new face of the Democrat Party (according to the head of the DNC).

Re:Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Do you understand how they did that? With deferred tax credits from previous years AND credits for executives exercising their stock options. Every dollar in corporate taxes saved due to Executives exercising stock options is more than offset by the personal income taxes paid at the much higher rate of 37% as opposed to the much lower corporate income tax rate.

Sorry, but all major corporations do this - tell me about all the taxes Facebook pays, GE, etc.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[ChrisMaple]

Taxes are paid on profits, not on revenue.

Sales tax, property tax, VAT, inventory tax....

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Amazon is doing nothing unethical. Period.

Amazon pays every penny it is required to, by the current tax code as written by your elected representatives - I'm sorry if the actual tax code doesn't match your imagined version of the tax code. If you want to eliminate corporate deductions, be prepared for the fallout.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[HornWumpus]

I own three atom bombs, one is thermonuclear.

Only you, required me to say I was sometimes full of shit. That's because you are a moron. I also don't actually run a 1kW linear on my phone.

I did vote for Vermin Supreme, but you've convinced me to vote Trump next round.

Evading taxes is 'As American as apple pie'. Everybody does it. Some people lie about it.

I only wish you were better at trolling. What you do is just lame.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[HornWumpus]

What kind of unelectrified hell hole do you live in? Seriously, nobody's fool enough to let the government be the power company.

In the USA, airports make money, roads are paid for by fuel taxes. Pretty hard to avoid, but all for it. Running race fuel on the street isn't about avoiding taxes though.

Do you think you get value for money from your taxes? Your joking.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Amazon entered into a 10 year deal with the City and State of New York, and over those ten years they would have paid an estimated $30 BN in various taxes and fees. Instead, NY City and State agreed to 90 cents on the dollar, AKA $27 BN over the next ten years to lure Amazon to Queens. So AOC & Friends didn't "save" NY city and state $3 BN, she cost them $27 BN in new tax revenue.

25,000 new jobs for a 10% discount on taxes, seems like an OK deal to me, but then again, I'm not an economics major like AOC is.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

In New York City, the top 1% pay about 46% of all income taxes collected in New York State - that's per Gov. Cuomo. After recent tax changes, the rich are leaving New York State, and already the state is running a $23BN tax shortfall, about a 3% deficit so far this tax year.

Yea! Tax the rich! What are they gonna do, leave? Well, yeah, they will.

BTW, we tax INCOME, not WEALTH.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Amazon lowered it's tax obligation by giving employees generous stock options, which, when exercised, gave Amazon a great write-off and transferred the tax obligation to the employees that pay a higher rate on their income than the corporation.

Amazon transferred it's tax obligation to it's employees, just as provided for in the tax code your elected representatives wrote. Don't like it, take it up with your elected officials.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Amazon is complying with the current US tax code as written, they have no obligation to pay taxes you imagine they owe, they do have an obligation to pay what they owe, and according to the tax code, they owe nothing.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Solandri]

You're halfway to getting it.

It turns out that where you extract taxes from is irrelevant. The economy all interconnected, and money flows like water running around a circular wheel. Taxes are just diverting some of that water (money) from this wheel to the government (who injects it back at different points in the wheel). Regardless of whether you extract water (taxes) at the point where individuals receive income (income tax), or at the point where individuals spend income (sales tax), or while a corporation is in possession of it (corporate tax), it has the same overall effect - the private sector (individuals, companies) can direct the flow of less water, the government can direct more.

So whether you're taxing via income taxes, sales taxes, or corporate taxes is irrelevant. They all do the same thing and have the same effect on the economy.

• Higher income taxes results in lower individual spending and thus lower corporate profits.
• Higher sales taxes causes lower individual spending, which leads to lower corporate profits and thus lower individual income in the form of lower wages and distributions..
• Higher corporate taxes results in lower wages and distribution and thus lower individual spending.

They all have the same effect. All you're doing by selecting one tax over another is changing who gets stuck with the paperwork and actually sends the money to the government. The consequence of sending that money to the government is distributed over the entire economy (individual income, spending, and corporate profit) regardless of what stage the money is extracted

So rather than have a gazillion different taxes, the system can actually be optimized by eliminating all taxes except for one.* And if you believe in a progressive tax structure (people with higher income should pay a higher percentage in taxes), then the obvious tax you want to keep is the income tax.

*(Actually we probably also want to keep behavior-modifying taxes like cigarette taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, etc. Their primary goal is to modify people's behavior, not necessarily the revenue they generate.)

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

What PopeRatzo said made sense. The way you took his quote out of context doesn't make sense. And I am pretty sure you know it.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[PopeRatzo]

Really? Any sanely run corporation must pass on all costs to the customers or eventually go out of business.

No. Pay attention: income taxes are taken out of profits, and profits only exist AFTER COSTS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR.

In fact, if you were to do your books and use the companies income taxes as a cost item, you could go to jail.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[PopeRatzo]

Sales tax, property tax, VAT, inventory tax....

This discussion is of Amazon not paying taxes, and those were income taxes. If you want to change the discussion, we can do that too.

It's why sales taxes are considered regressive and income taxes are progressive. The idea of a progressive income tax on individuals and corporations is actually quite an innovation. It's the fairest way to pay for a civil society.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

AC is a Corporate Progressive nazi. So OF COURSE he's a racist.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[youngone]

Nobody is arguing Amazon are breaking the law.
The argument is that the law ought to be different.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenai_alpenglow]

Right now we tax income. But A. Occasionally Coherent (and her ilk) want to tax wealth, too. So that money you've got in your 401K for retirement? They may claim otherwise, but that's still wealth and it will get taxed.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[kenai_alpenglow]

substitute "WILL loot" for "can loot" , and you've got it. The rich can get around the taxes, the poor don't pay tax. All these taxes are on the middle class.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

I actually do get that. I deliberately posted a mirror image of the corporate apologists here that think corporations shouldn't be taxed.

Of course, corporations already have lawyers and accountants on the payroll anyway while individuals often don't except at tax time, so there is some reason to prefer extracting that "water" while corporations are holding it.

The behavior modification taxes tend to backfire if there is any danger they might modify behavior. See the hand wringing over cigarette taxes drying up.

Others like fuel tax actually do make sense if they are used to pay for pollution abatement and road maintenance.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[srichard25]

They might not be doing anything illegal, but I disagree what they are doing is ethical. Ethical is a higher bar than legal. One of the definitions of ethical is: avoiding activities or organizations that do harm to people or the environment. So they found a loophole that allows them to avoid all federal taxes. They could chose to not use that type of loophole and pay a reasonable amount of tax to the country that allows them to make billions in profit.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[ShanghaiBill]

They could chose to not use that type of loophole and pay a reasonable amount of tax to the country that allows them to make billions in profit.

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes." -- Judge Learned Hand

Re: Tax is for the little people

[ShanghaiBill]

Seriously, nobody's fool enough to let the government be the power company.

There are plenty of places in America with government run municipal power.

Municipal electric utilities in the United States

They generally work well. Electrical power is a natural monopoly, so free market competition isn't really an alternative anyway.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[HornWumpus]

Munis and PUDs are not part of government. They are nonprofit corporations, which is bad enough.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[BoogieChile]

Also a favoured appellative of one Mr. B. Bunny (esq), in his frequent decriptive episodes relating to one Mr. E. Fudd.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Dog-Cow]

It is illegal, but not immoral or ethical, to rip your face off and stuff it up your ass.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[dryeo]

How do you know? Usually tax law has grey areas where it takes a court case to decide whether something is legal or illegal, and different courts may decide differently. Not to mention the prosecutors discretion in bringing a case and the taxman also having discretion in whether to do an audit.
Simple example, if I write of my cars mileage, depreciation etc for business and I'm regularly stopping at the grocery store for personal needs while on business, am I breaking the law and will the government bother to take it to court.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

How much more in tax do you pay every year vs what you owe? Do you ignore deductions youre otherwise entitled to? Do you win your taxes every year?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Amazon employed the same loophole Facebook and Apple used in 2012, this 'loophole' generated an amount of personal income that was taxed at the higher personal income tax rates, not the lower corporate levels.

If you have an issue with Amazon )and many other companies) doing nothing more than complying with US tax code as written, ask your elected representatives to change it!

47% of americans either pay no net income taxes or even profit, getting refunds that exceed all monies withheld from paychecks - are they 'ethical'? Do they have a moral obligation to send money into the treasury in excess of that required by law? No, they don, so why does Amazon?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Roads are paid for with fuel taxes.

Schools are paid for with school taxes.

Electricity is paid for with electric utility bills (not taxes).

Amazon, if it moved to NY city, would have paid $27BN in state taxes over the next ten years, that is money NY state won't see because AOC & Company decided they wouldn't allow the state to give a little to get a lot.

Losing Amazon cost Queens/NY State $27BN in lost revenue.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

Who's evading taxes?

Amazon pays all the federal income taxes owed.

If the Queens deal went thru, Amazon would have paid $27BN in state & local taxes - they had a deal whereby queens and NY state would forgive $3BN if Amazon paid$27BN over the next ten years.

Amazon evades no taxes, it complies with the tax code as written by your elected representatives.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

47% of tax filers pay no federal income tax each year, should they pay more to have 'skin in the game'?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[kenh]

We spend more on welfare programs than the military.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[dryeo]

That would mean everyone owing what, $55.000?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[dryeo]

If they could raise prices, they already would have.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

My reply was to someone who explicitly claimed that evasion of taxes was neither immoral nor unethical.

As for Amazon, so you're saying as long as I mostly pay my taxes it's fine if I skip the rest as long as I buy off the correct people?

The people of NY called bullshit on that for good reason.

or back to my analogy, putting my steak on his tab is cool as long as I slip the cashier a buck or two?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[dryeo]

Higher corporate taxes results in lower wages and distribution and thus lower individual spending.

Actually higher corporate taxes results in more spending on wages, infrastructure etc as the corporation would prefer to spend their money, expand their business and write it off then give it to the government. Unlike wage earners, who basically get taxed on income, corporations get taxed on profits, or the amount left over after paying the bills including wages.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Ichijo]

How can ordinary citizens like you and I get the same negative tax deal as Amazon?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[dryeo]

Wouldn't giving employees actually lower the income tax for the corporation as it is an expense that reduces profits.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Virtually nowhere in the US are roads paid entirely, or even majority paid by fuel taxes or license fees. The vast majority of roads have additional funding via property taxes or other levies.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Ichijo]

If electrical power is a natural monopoly, then why do I get my power from a mix of sources?

I think you mean that the infrastructure to deliver electric power is a natural monopoly. Which is true, to a point. But what energizes the wires need not be a monopoly, and in fact it's best if it isn't.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not a net figure, you're not an economist either.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

In the case of NYC, the tax rate is set high so the politicians can cut deals and collect bribes. The supermarket workers union wants to unionize whole foods and amazon distibution centers (even though their members make less than amazon is paying with worse benefits).
The politicians would have stepped into to help, FOR A PRICE.

Native NYC resident, this goes on every day in real estate development . Every democrat campaigns against the greedy landlords then takes a campaign donation and the project proceeds after a 2 year delay.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon pays nothing because it reinvest all its profit generating economic activity. Its called carry basis . One day it will have to pay the bill. That day is when it stops investing in new facilities . Wish every person would be required to take tax law 101. We would not be having the same silly discussion over and over. It's purpose is to encourage companies to expand. Most of Bezos money is in Amazon stock, he does not have it to spend.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they don't pass on 100% to consumers. Even monopolies can't do that without lowering demand and units sold. They "eat" a fraction of by accepting lower profits, paying less in dividends, and cutting costs elsewhere (operating costs). If they passed 100% of it to consumers, their competitors would be willing to only pass 90% of it it onto consumers and gain market share as a result of selling their product at a lower price.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Citizen of Earth]

How much tax does Amazon's 613k employees pay?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[stoborrobots]

Sure, but what percentage of the income do they make? If they're taking home 80% of the income and paying 46% of the income tax, that seems to be underpaying.

Also, per your link, that statistic is not from the Cuomo, but is stated editorialising by investors.com after his quote.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[drinkypoo]

The idea of a progressive income tax on individuals and corporations is actually quite an innovation. It's the fairest way to pay for a civil society.

By all means, let's start taxing corporations on their income instead of their profit. That would help clear the dead wood.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[PopeRatzo]

By all means, let's start taxing corporations on their income instead of their profit. That would help clear the dead wood.

While I understand the sentiment, I don't think that's the best approach. The only real "income" a corporation makes is profits. Taxing revenue would end up hurting consumers. Taxing profits does not.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[drinkypoo]

While I understand the sentiment, I don't think that's the best approach. The only real "income" a corporation makes is profits. Taxing revenue would end up hurting consumers. Taxing profits does not.

Not taxing corporate revenues also ends up hurting consumers, by letting rich people use corporations as tax dodges, and by letting corporations use creative accounting to hide profits, and thus avoid paying taxes. Hollywood, anyone?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[smoot123]

Wouldn't giving employees actually lower the income tax for the corporation as it is an expense that reduces profits.

Giving employees what? I think you're missing a word here.

It doesn't matter though because you raise an interesting point. Yes, there will be all sorts of adjustments. How this would all play out is beyond me. Someone who actually studied economics might be able to sort it out but that's not me.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this why you have such crap infrastructure and poor school results?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

No - PopeCrapso is an idiot. Let's try it with simple gas taxes shall we? if the government charges 50 cents a gallon tax (which they do and in most states its higher) does the good gas corporation just eat those costs while the evil gas corporation passes them on? Raise gas prices by 49 cents a gallon? Or tacks on the 50 cents a gallon to the price?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[dryeo]

Yes, I missed the word raise. The idea being that a business might prefer giving money to employees instead of government. Tax is on profit after expenses.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell is a 10% discount compatible with a free market? It is blatanty obvious that that kind of discount IS abuse of corporate power??

This is almost simpler than 1 + 1 = 2

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

You cannot possibly have any idea about ethics. Doing what you are required to by law proves absolutely nothing about ethics.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Darinbob]

Irrelevant. The workers pay tax on their own earnings, they are not paying tax on behalf on Amazon. Corporations are not people, so why are you defending the absurd ideas that only citizens and residents should pay taxes but never a corporation?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Some costs are quite flexible, just look at management and ceo wages. Not passing income taxes to the consumers could be done by just reducing those to something sensible.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

This very much depends on the elasticity of demand.
If there is no market for higher prices, then profit will slip until there is no profit and the company dies.

Ferrari can sell cars for hundreds of thousands of dollars, Ford cannot.
If super-cars attract a higher tax, the market will in all likelihood still be there, if the "ordinary car" market gets taxed more, people will hold on to cars for longer, or adjust to other options.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

It was NY trying to be competitive with lower tax locations. Giving the discount would have resulted in a significant net gain. It's called competition and market economics. To compete in the market, the more expensive state offered a discount. It was very much a free market. How is that abuse of corporate power? Amazon offered investments, jobs and future tax revenues that NY wanted. They made a bid along with many other cities/states that also wanted those opportunities. It would have cost NY nothing if you look at the net versus just looking at the incentive.

This whole incident shows how ignorant young activists are. They don't understand economics. They've been brainwashed by liberal educators to believe business is evil. They don't understand simple things like 90% of $10B is > 100% of $0.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that dividends are taxed as normal income by those that receive them, right?

At the end of the day, business exists to make profit. If they don't make a certain margin compared to putting their money elsewhere, they divest and go out of business. They will either raise prices to meet that margin, lay off workers, or pay workers less. Increasing their tax burden either comes out of the pockets of consumers, or results in fewer employees/lower wages. No one wins by over taxing business. That's what all the tax the evil corporation people just don't grok.

If you can spur investment in the US that leads to more jobs. Especially good paying jobs. Then you can actually increase tax revenue as those jobs create paychecks that are taxed. More people making more money also increases property values producing more property taxes. Those people spend money in the economy, creating more jobs for lesser skilled people. You want to maximize economic growth as that's good for everyone. That's what NY was trying to do until the ignorant socialists created a hostile environment.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Or it encourages them to move profit offshore to countries with lower taxes. As a part of that, they can't bring the money on-shore, so they hire fewer people here. We live in a global economy and have to be competitive if we want investment and jobs to be in the US. This relates directly to Amazon and NY as NY recognized it was at a disadvantage with its high taxes compared to other states.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

If the taxes of all their competitors also went up 20%, they'd all raise prices to compensate. They don't raise prices now, because they'd lose sales to competitors that don't. But in an equal playing field where everyone incurs a new cost, the market would adjust in tandem. As an example, look at how all the airlines raise and lower prices when fuel costs change.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

What wage is acceptable? Amazon has a corporate $15/hour minimum wage. Isn't that the magic number that progressives keep touting?

I know that AOC and others keep ignorantly talking about working conditions and wages and stuff. It's all propaganda devoid of facts. They're so anti-business, that they don't bother with actual research and facts. They just keep spreading untruths that support their narrative.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[cheesybagel]

Try reading about Trump's own argument about how Amazon is a net drain on the USPS's coffers.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[cheesybagel]

Amazon supposedly said they would not be searching for another location after the announcement.

Which makes me think it was a bait & switch deal on Bezo's part to begin with. Probably to squeeze more money out from Washington State as usual.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[cheesybagel]

Oh and their location near Washington, DC is there so they can lobby the government more effectively. Think about that next time you claim that it's the polician's fault for them not being taxed properly.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

So where Im from, the first 34,000 income is deemed to be waive for tax purposes.

Should I pay taxes from the first dolar or from the 34,001st dolar?
How is what im doing ethical or unethical?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Mitreya]

over those ten years they would have paid an estimated $30 BN in various taxes and fees. Instead, NY City and State agreed to 90 cents on the dollar, AKA $27 BN over the next ten years to lure Amazon to Queens. So AOC & Friends didn't "save" NY city and state $3 BN, she cost them $27 BN in new tax revenue.

So, was the agreement to offer a 10% discount on Amazon taxes?
And if the taxes of $30 BN turn out to be less (e.g., $6 BN) would someone be held responsible?
I am thinking if NY was guaranteed $27 BN new tax revenue, they would not be so quick to turn Amazon down.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[dcw3]

By definition, corporations have an obligation to their shareholders. They have an obligation to follow the law. What they don't have is an obligation to follow your version or anyone else's ethics. If you don't like what they do, then you need to make it illegal, because otherwise, it's their job to find every legal way they can to maximize profits. That doesn't mean they have to be dicks about it...they'll do what they have to in order to avoid pissing off the customers if it's going to affect the bottom line. Otherwise, lower profits affect just about every manager's incentives/take home pay.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[dcw3]

Please define "negative tax deal".

What you can do is start a company that will employ ~25000 people. You'll have municipalities calling at all hours to offer you oral sex if you put the jobs in their location.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[dcw3]

They used to be natural monopolies, but in places like VA, you now have options. I can choose my power company.
https://www.scc.virginia.gov/p...

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Really. But the mechanism is different. Investors expect certain profit return that is dictated by the global market. If the company makes less, it will go bankrupt / doesn't get more money from investors. The corporate taxes bite into the profit. If the taxes get higher, in the long run, there will be less companies (either some go bankrupt or some won't be created), this would mean less competition, higher prices for consumers and in the end the remaining companies will keep their profit margin.

And the tax will be paid by the customers (and the economy gets a bunch of dead-weight loss to boot)

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you're talking about the morons that elected AOC whom her self is also a fucking moron.

Socialism is like a form of mass hysteria where at the end everyone collectively performs economic seppuku and financially bleeds out!

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

> The notion that corporations pass income taxes on to consumers is not supported by any data whatsoever.

This is false on its face. 100% of the money used to pay taxes comes from the consumer. Where else is the corporation getting money?

Here's some data for you. I own a business and I pass 100% of my taxes on to the consumers of my products.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

> I'm not an economics major like AOC is.

Giggity

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

They will do like Chicago and tax them on the way out.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if only we could prevent the rich from owning property in NYC, we'd be set.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Kohath]

1. Trump is incorrect about that
2. Even if he were correct, why should anyone care about the USPS? The USPS isn't supported by taxes. The postal service should be privatized. UPS or FedEx or Postmates or a dozen other companies could deliver mail.
 

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, but what percentage of the income do they make? If they're taking home 80% of the income and paying 46% of the income tax, that seems to be underpaying.

Why? Are they also using 80% of the infrastructure and services? It seems to me they're overpaying.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Do they use public transport proportionately more? Get better healthcare because of their higher taxes? Maybe their cars wear out the roads 100x more than the cars of people who pay 100x less?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

The government here lets the power company do the job of government. It's one reason I'm off grid. All building permits need to be approved by the power co, or you either can't get lines run to your homestead, or you have to pay for the poles AND pay a higher price per kwh (industrial rates, but family use doesn't get anywhere near the discount breakpoint). Electricity is just one business they are in. Power is the business. Good naming - right in your face.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[AmiMoJo]

In other words your dislike of federally mandated minimum income tax levels, and federal taxes in general, allows rich people to pit state against state and force a race to the bottom.

Taxes shouldn't really operate like a free market.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[AmiMoJo]

It's interesting how AOC's opponents are taking every opportunity to work her into topics so they have have a bash. I get the impression they are really worried about her, worried about another Obama style opponent who is popular without being a populist.

Or maybe it's just SOP to build up decades of shit-slinging now, in case she ever tries to get one of the higher offices. Worked so well with Clinton, it's going to be used on everyone now.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[AmiMoJo]

Any sanely run corporation must pass on all costs to the customers or eventually go out of business.

Only if they want to be absolutely certain of going bust. Can't just raise prices every time costs increase, there is only so much the market will stand. If they don't cut costs or cut profits eventually no-one will buy their products, and they will be out of business.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[AmiMoJo]

The issue seems to have been the people who already live there getting priced out of their homes. Rents and property prices shoot up, that sort of thing.

Amazon could have addressed those concerns. They didn't, and AOC was elected to represent her constituents who were protesting what the correctly identified as a plan to force them out via gentrification.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[AmiMoJo]

Problem is it would have forced a lot of the existing residents out of the area. It's immoral to get tax money in exchange for allowing your constituents to be displaced.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

No one wants to pay much tax. The only people who say they want to pay higher taxes actually want to tax others so they can spend others' money on their own priorities.

I want to pay the highest tax rate on income. Why? Because that means that my income is above highest threshold. It is not right now.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

"Corporations are owned by people, extremely wealthy people."

Virtually every small business is a corporation. Several million of them in the US. Barely any are owned by extremely wealthy people, but I suppose to a Marxist anyone who has more than you is "extremely wealthy" and should have the fruits of their labor confiscated.

Socialist's class warfare BS is just tired.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[pak9rabid]

Doing the ethical thing and appeasing your shareholders (to who you have a legal responsibility to appease) don't always intersect, as is the case here.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

How is a race to the bottom? By offering tax breaks to attract those people fleeing high-tax areas my state is and locality is experiencing a huge boom. Quality of life has increased tremendously thanks to the Leftist policies folks like you are trying to force on people where you live. Thanks.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[pak9rabid]

How can ordinary citizens like you and I get the same negative tax deal as Amazon?

Start a business and employ thousands of people?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[MetricT]

> Any sanely run corporation must pass on all costs to the customers

Look who hasn't passed Business 101 and yet felt the need to comment...

Corporate taxes can also be paid by stockholders.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[greythax]

This rationale only works when one assumes that corporations will be spending all of the wealth they amass, and not banking it or moving it to other countries. Money in the bank does not get sent back into the economy at large. It's important to tax broadly to prevent people finding syphons to squirrel away all the money.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

The only concern I have about AOC is that the Dems will primary her in two years and she'll go away. As a conservative let me tell you there is no better poster-child for the folly that is Socialism than AOC. she's an imbecile and I want her front-and-center until her own party can no longer stand it and throws her out.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Oooh, 25000 jobs. Are they all high paying? Let's say they are all paying $250k (unlikely)... then at 6% state rate, that's $375M of NY tax revenues... Except that unless those 25000 are all immigrants to NY, or all currently unemployed New Yorkers, the state would have already been receiving part of that revenue from the same people working other jobs.

Is it really such a great deal? Other companies will bring the job "for free"

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

-1 dumb troll

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's patently obvious because employee salaries are expenses and profits are what is left over after all expenses are paid. Profits don't go to employee salaries by definition.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[thegarbz]

Yea! Tax the rich! What are they gonna do, leave? Well, yeah, they will.

No they won't because as usual when this argument comes up people forget that the cost of paying the tax is usually far lower than the cost incurred of lost access.

It's why there is a paid access market to foreign citizenship, and why countries have laws regarding ownership, profits, and residency.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[smoot123]

Yes, I missed the word raise. The idea being that a business might prefer giving money to employees instead of government. Tax is on profit after expenses.

I understand the sentiment but doubt the numbers work out. If I give an employee a $1 raise, that reduces my tax liability by something like 28 cents (or whatever the corporate tax rate is). The business has a lower profit by 72 cents. It's the same argument people give when they say they don't want to pay off their mortgage because they don't want to lose the tax deduction.

Personally, I'd consider giving people raises (although I don't employ anyone so this is not an issue) because I get some personal satisfaction giving people money instead of paying taxes. Turns out most people feel that way: they choose a globally sub-optimal solution if that solution hurts someone or something they don't like.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[clawsoon]

In New York City, the top 1% pay about 46% of all income taxes collected in New York State

Income taxes are about 50% of New York State's budget, so that means the top 1% are paying about 23% of the budget via their state income taxes.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

My reply was to someone who explicitly claimed that evasion of taxes was neither immoral nor unethical.

As for Amazon, so you're saying as long as I mostly pay my taxes it's fine if I skip the rest as long as I buy off the correct people?

The people of NY called bullshit on that for good reason.

or back to my analogy, putting my steak on his tab is cool as long as I slip the cashier a buck or two?

You fail to address the "illegal" part. Immoral and unethical are not necessarily illegal. The idiots in NY that "called bullshit" are actively working against their own self interest. I've had this talk with my kids too but then again they are children, not just behaving like children. 100% of nothing is still nothing. Those that fail to understand that truly suffer from the greed that they invariably project onto others.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. The notion that corporations don't do that is insane. Part of my job is to look at pricing - we price to hit a particular after-tax return.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's patently obvious because employee salaries are expenses and profits are what is left over after all expenses are paid. Profits don't go to employee salaries by definition.

Bzzt, wrongo bongo. You're taking a myoptic view of things when you need to step back and consider the big picture.

All corporate profits eventually go out the door into people's salaries, stock/bonds dividends/interest, or otherwise in some way or another. A corporation might withhold spending profits from certain years, but that is just the mechanics of building a cash cushion to draw from during other years.

How do you expect corporations to blow huge wads of money on building out new factories and warehouses in certain years if they are not saving up profits in the years prior? How do you expect corporations to continue operating, existing, and employing people whenever a heavy recession puts a huge dent in income?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[dcw3]

There is no tax evasion here. There are just billions in taxes that will not go to NYC along with jobs and tens of thousands of additional jobs that would have been necessary to support them, along with all of those taxes. This is what you and morons like AOC don't understand. That business and tax income is going someplace, and it won't be NYC. AOC thinks NYC should spend the ~$3B on something else, but it's ~$3B you don't have. It's the reason why lowering the corporate tax rate from the highest on the planet made sense...allowing us to keep the jobs and taxes in the U.S.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[dcw3]

As a fiscal conservative, I'd generally say yes, everyone should have some skin in the game...I'd couch that with "above the poverty line in their region". I do have some compassion for people like my own mother who is living off of her ~$900/mo social security.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

No wonder so many corporations moved themselves or their work outside of the US. It's because people don't understand basic economics like you sjames. The US had the highest corporate tax rate in the world before the recent tax changes. Want to know why the stock market did so well since Trump was elected (and no, I don't like him, nor did I vote for him)...the anticipation of an improved environment in which to do business. Yeah, I'm sure you'll argue about it being down through last Dec...that's the orange man dealing with the Chinese, and it's coming around again. Why did companies like my own put $1B into our pension fund, and reimplement profit sharing that they'd done away with during Obama? Why is unemployment at near all time lows? How is it that corporations are starting to have to compete for highly skilled people and putting upward pressure on salaries again...$150k avg!?! That figure was tossed around in my building as well (also a F500 company).

Re:Tax is for the little people

[dcw3]

So rather than have a gazillion different taxes, the system can actually be optimized by eliminating all taxes except for one.*

While I agree with the general point, this really is an oversimplification. Would you really want to do away with usage taxes/fees, where those who actually use that function of govt. are paying for it instead of peanut buttering it across everyone...I don't. Do you really want to tax investment income at the same rate as normal income...I don't.

Also, do you really consider property tax to be a "behavior-modifying" tax...in nearly every place I've been it's generally used to fund education.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon negotiated a 10% discount on an estimated $30 BN tax bill over the first ten years of the new HQ2/2, while the economics major AOC focused on the loss of $3 BN in tax revenues, she completely missed the net $27 BN in new tax revenues the project would bring to NY State, NY City and the residents of Queens.

Estimated by who? Did they take into consideration the same accounting practices that led to Amazon paying $0 to the Federal government in 2018? I am seriously asking here because I don't know anything about this situation.

By the way, did you know that it is possible for a tax credit to make your taxes negative? It's true! Happened to me in 2009 thanks to the First Time Home Buyer Tax Credit (this was the one that did NOT need to be repaid). I know it can be a little confusing since the IRS also uses credit to refer to things that can drop your taxes to zero but not less than zero.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Oceanplexian]

- Government already taxes your income (between State and Federal taxes it was around 40c of every dollar I made last time I checked).
- Government double dips and taxes corporations payroll tax in addition to your income tax
- Government taxes a percent of any property you have, and if you don't pay that every year they will come to your door and evict you
- Every time you stay at a hotel, go out to eat, or buy a beer, the government needs more taxes
- If you want to invest money and save it, the government taxes that too
- If I want to start a business or even a hobby, the government needs its taxes!
- Government taxes everything you buy with a Sales Tax
- Need to travel anywhere, government needs a hefty gas tax too

In exchange for all these taxes, on every dollar you make, every dollar you get, every dollar you spend, and every dollar you invest, you get: Failing schools, failing bridges and roads. A judicial system that's a joke, with years of case backlogs, high crime (Ironically in the cities and states that have the highest taxes). When you say, oh look at all these benefits of taxes, all I see are piles of waste and corruption, and a government stealing from its citizens while not fulfilling its end of the social contract. A government that you think should be entitled to even more money that it did not earn and does not deserve.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[cheesybagel]

Except it is enshrined in the US Constitution.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

I seriously doubt that. Would you like to share your references?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

How can ordinary citizens like you and I get the same negative tax deal as Amazon?

Vote for different people.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[DRJlaw]

Really? Any sanely run corporation must pass on all costs to the customers or eventually go out of business.

Well, since business taxes are levied against profits, not revenue, how do you justify categorizing taxes as a "cost" that must be passed on to consumers rather than a reduction in profits?

Do tell... I want to hear this one.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

IDK why you where marked Troll when assessment is 100% correct.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

USPS can deliver a letter for far less than USP or shitty FedEx and it isn't even close.

numbnuts

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

> water and sewage

Paid for usage. Those things aren't free to anyone.

> roads
> bridges

Gas is taxed. They aren't using unicorn farts to get to the office.

> railroads

Are privately owned and you pay for use.

> a court system

Your own lawyers will soak you dry for this. There is nothing free about it.

> police and military

Their employees pay taxed out of what they are paid to cover this.

At least fucking try.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Do small business owners have this luxury as well? Can I defer my tax payments because my companies growing?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Except lowering the corporate tax rate was not needed. Keep giving handouts and tax breaks to big business while screaming socialism when it's for someone who actually needs it.

You fags are all for welfare when it's to give a corporation a tax break or free land. But offer a poor person a program to get their life's back on track!!! Oh noes that's welfare. Fucking idiots.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

The stock market is shit right now. We gave them tax breaks and it did good for a little bit, then it all got erased.

Go figure.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

And you provide no citations for any of your claims.

Yea my company put 1 billion into a pension account to.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

Your argument might hold water if Amazon and ONLY Amazon could provide jobs and taxes in New York. You may have seen pictures of the place, it's not exactly an empty field devoid of commerce.

I'll give you ten cents for your car. It's ten more cents than the zero you will get if you piss me off by asking for eleven cents. You don't want to blow the deal, do you?

Re: Tax is for the little people

[thomn8r]

Amazon, if it moved to NY city, would have paid $27BN in state taxes over the next ten years,

Funniest thing I've read all day!

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

My reply was to someone who explicitly claimed that evasion of taxes was neither immoral nor unethical.

One more time for good measure:

My reply was to someone who explicitly claimed that evasion of taxes was neither immoral nor unethical.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

Just imagine how much better businesses would be doing if consumers suddenly discovered that they were getting 100% of the witholding from their paychecks back this year!

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Your argument might hold water if Amazon and ONLY Amazon could provide jobs and taxes in New York. You may have seen pictures of the place, it's not exactly an empty field devoid of commerce.

I'll give you ten cents for your car. It's ten more cents than the zero you will get if you piss me off by asking for eleven cents. You don't want to blow the deal, do you?

False analogy. You are trying to trade for me real property. The Amazon deal made no such arrangement. The correct analogy is more like this: If you let me sell bottled water in front of your house during the parade I will give you 10% of my day's profits, but you decline my offer because you feel you should have 20%. Instead, I go sell in front of your neighbor's house and now you get nothing. You can still shovel sidewalks next winter or mow lawns or sell water at the next parade so you still have job prospects, but greed had you turn down the free rewards of my labor.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Darinbob]

What I am saying is that *IF* the government is going to tax some entities, please tax corporations as your first priority and the residents as a second priority. If you want to argue to remove all taxes everywhere then that's a different argument unrelated to this thread.

Corporations don't exist to create jobs. If corporations could have zero workers they would happily get along with zero workers, that's the nature of the beast. Bending over backwards to give corporations everything they ask for because they promise a handful of jobs (that they won't deliver on) is a path to ruin. The problem is that we've gone away from politicians listening to the workers because they're the ones who vote and instead towards the corporations because they're the ones who bribe the politicians.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

Closer to let me throw a party on your lawn, I'll give you 20% of the take. You do the math and figure it would cost you more than that to repair the damage to the lawn and have all that litter collected. Then you figure, what the hell, you're neighbors will probably pay for the trash pickup to avoid damage to their property damage.

For some reason, your neighbors object to that plan and call the cops.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[JesseMcDonald]

In what sense is politicians doing what lobbyists ask not 100% the politicians' fault?

A lobbyist can make requests or suggestions, or perhaps offer a deal—but in the end it's the politician that has all the decision-making power.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[JesseMcDonald]

Money in the bank does not get sent back into the economy at large.

Um, that's exactly what's happening when money is put in the bank. They don't keep it all as cash in vault, you know. That money is used to buy investments and make loans. (Even if they did just keep it in a vault, taking currency out of circulation would still return that value to the economy in the form of deflation.)

Re:Tax is for the little people

[JesseMcDonald]

Obviously an individual producer can't just arbitrarily raise prices to generate more revenue, as they'd lose business to the competition. If you raise costs across the board, however, then they'll all either have to raise prices together or go out of business. Since costs have gone up for everyone they don't need to worry about being undercut, which is what was holding prices down before.

In general any business is going to have a standard expected accounting profit, after factoring in risk, which is based on the amount of capital involved and the time value of money (the interest rate). Imposing a tax does not change the amount of (after-tax) profit necessary to justify the capital expenditure of the business in the slightest. The tax comes out of the sum of the consumer surplus and producer surplus which lies between the actual market price and the price which would exist in the absence of competition. Of the two, in even a marginally competitive market, the consumer surplus will be by far the largest portion and thus it will be the consumer paying the majority of the tax. In the long run, rather than reducing the profit margin, the effect of taxing corporate profits appears as a combination of higher prices and more limited supply for whatever good or service the business produces. Those who still get the good pay more, and others who would have benefitted instead go without.

The exception is the rare case where a single supplier has an effective monopoly and the ability to set the market price as they please. In that situation the balance shifts toward producer surplus, so (to a point) increasing costs may not lead to correspondingly higher prices. Of course, the simpler solution would be to revoke the monopoly status which the government most likely granted in the first place.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[JesseMcDonald]

Business taxes are levied against accounting profits, which in the long run are nothing more than the minimum rate of return necessary to justify the business's capital expenditures and risk. Economic profit, which takes opportunity cost into account, tends toward zero in a competitive market. When economic profit is less than zero the business is non-viable; that occurs well before the accounting profit is reduced to zero.

A marginal business may have a positive accounting profit, but if you tax part of that profit away you lower the return in investment to the point that it makes more sense to invest somewhere else instead, and the business closes. That reduces the supply, and reducing supply of a good results in an increase in price, all else being equal.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes

Re:Tax is for the little people

[dryeo]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I thought the way it works is if I have a business that brings in $1 million and my expenses, materials, rent, labour, my salary etc adds up to a million, I don't pay taxes on the business, just my salary.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[dryeo]

A lot of the time, the only government grant towards monopoly status are things like trademark and patent law. Arguments can be made either way and revoking Apples trademarks would allow competition in selling idevices, same with allowing anyone to call themselves Facebook or Amazon. Then there are the natural monopolies such as cell providers where the barrier to entry is high enough that short of removing all regulations so they can have power output wars, it's hard for new competition to show up. My government has been encouraging competition in the cell market for decades without much results. The established companies all independently lower their prices when faced with competition and to build out enough coverage to make a company worth considering is a huge expense. Perhaps more regulation would help, forcing sharing of infrastructure for example. Government owning the infrastructure can work for a while, but it always seems complacency and corruption happens eventually.

As for taxes, I guess can take America's course if credit is good enough, just keep borrowing and creating money. Too many expenses, with many that are very hard to get rid of in a democracy and even in a totalitarian system, hungry people get restless.
You can tax the workers, but then wages have to go up, meaning that companies have to pay more and you get the same problems as a corporate tax.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Closer to let me throw a party on your lawn, I'll give you 20% of the take. You do the math and figure it would cost you more than that to repair the damage to the lawn and have all that litter collected. Then you figure, what the hell, you're neighbors will probably pay for the trash pickup to avoid damage to their property damage.

For some reason, your neighbors object to that plan and call the cops.

Another false analogy. Only a deluded cynic expects the Amazon deal to be a net negative on cost versus benefits for NYC or the state. This is why DeBlasio was ranting on the Sunday news programs and Cuomo was so pissed off.

The big complaint was the level of NY benefits versus Amazon's level of revenue and profitability. i.e. greed from the wealth redistributors on the left. Amazon wanted a partner for this project and NY held their hand out a little too long. Cuomo and DeBlasio can whine about how unfair it is all day long but it's Amazon's business, not NY's. Did you never hear the story of the little red hen when you were a child?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[DRJlaw]

Economic profit, which takes opportunity cost into account, tends toward zero in a competitive market.

Oh, lord. Really? The "assume a spherical cow" of economics rears its ugly head yet again. Please, do tell me what percentage of economic activity actually takes place in an competitive market.

A marginal business may have a positive accounting profit, but if you tax part of that profit away you lower the return in investment to the point that it makes more sense to invest somewhere else instead, and the business closes.

And Amazon is a "marginal business"? Guess what, you've just argued for a progressive business taxation system, instead of the current regressive business taxation system where the larger and more profitable a business, the more public benefits and tax abatements it can demand.

Checkmate.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

NY wasn't the one with it's hand out. Amazon was free to move in at any time under the same deal as the thousands and thousands of businesses already there.

They decided not to when their palm wasn't "sufficiently" greased.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

NY wasn't the one with it's hand out. Amazon was free to move in at any time under the same deal as the thousands and thousands of businesses already there.

Amazon brought much more to the table than nearly all of those "thousands and thousands of businesses already there." But you are right, they were free to move in under those conditions. Or not. They chose not. DeBlasio was furious and wanted to put blame on Amazon for changing their mind as if he and NYC were owed those jobs and taxes by divine right. (I saw his performance on Sunday) He needs to look inward and recognize they were driven out by a vocal few that his style of politics represent.

They decided not to when their palm wasn't "sufficiently" greased.

They decided that AOC and her vocal cronies were more trouble than they were worth. She has prided herself on that fact. Think about that. The Anti-Amazon contingent was more than $3 billion worth of trouble.

AOC gets to keep her district Amazon free. Amazon gets a more welcoming and stable political climate elsewhere. Everyone's a winner, right? But why are Cuomo and DeBlasio so pissed off then? And what about the 81% of Hispanics in New York that wanted Amazon? Or the 70% of blacks? Or the 58% overall? I guess everyone wasn't a winner after all.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

DeBlasio was furious and wanted to put blame on Amazon for changing their mind as if he and NYC were owed those jobs and taxes by divine right.

Or the same reason a real estate agent would be ticked off if he spent all day showing you homes, then haggling, and starts the ball rolling on the credit check and drawing up the contract only for you toi say "Nah, I was just killing some time, I'm not in the market for a house.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't we do both? Let's say I earn $50k this year, and I pay about $8200 in federal taxes (including social security and Medicare). Let's also say I hire a full-time driver for $21k. Then the driver pays around $2600 in tax -- but according to you, my driver shouldn't be taxed, because his income was already taxed when I earned it!

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not take that reasoning to its logical conclusion and say that every man, woman, and child in the US should have a $12,000 tax bill each year? Or $16,000 per person if you only tax adults.

Sucks for minimum wage workers earning $15k, but that's ok, at least everyone is paying an equal share of the infrastructure!

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, if you look at the tax structure, the small business owners pay at most 20% on the profits (capital gains). Meanwhile, the workers (i.e. the ones having the fruits of their labors confiscated by the owners) pay up to 37% on their scraps.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, he accidentally a word.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooh, Amazon is as ethical (or not) as Facebook and Apple! Way to set a high bar!

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

the market might not bear it now because there is a competitor that has a similar product for cheaper. but if the competitor also has to pay the new 20% tax well they might not be able to see it so cheap anymore either.

Re:Tax is for the little people

[cheesybagel]

You know how you can reduce corruption? You have to punish both the corrupter and the corrupted.

You have to make all transactions more transparent. For example in New York's case, Amazon wanted to do a closed doors negotiation, while the local government wanted to make it public. So who was the leading agent for corruptive practices here even in a city like New York?

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Not once has giving corporations and rich shitheads a tax break resulted in any significant economic gain for employees.

Not fucking once. Trickle down==getting pissed on

numbnuts

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

There is virtually no distinction in cost or efficiency of regulated vs unregulated generation markets. Deregulation of electric generation hasn't lead to savings. The majority of US states have regulated markets with vertical utilities. I'm glad you think its "best" if generation isn't a monopoly, but your baseless opinion isn't supported by electricity markets in the US.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[mlyle]

NY was anteing a few billion in the short term, and hoping to get $30B in tax revenue in the long term. The models for "future revenue based on project" tend to be complete bollocks-- assuming that everyone who works for Amazon is new to the area and becomes a new income tax filer that would be paying $0 otherwise, etc.

> 25,000 new jobs for a 10% discount on taxes, seems like an OK deal to me

Possibly 15,000-25,000 new jobs vs. $3bln in subsidies-- $120k/job. Also, time value of money, yada yada yada.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[dcw3]

My reply was to someone who explicitly claimed that evasion of taxes was neither immoral nor unethical.

Up until you said this maybe...

As for Amazon, so you're saying as long as I mostly pay my taxes it's fine if I skip the rest as long as I buy off the correct people?

The people of NY called bullshit on that for good reason.

Re: Tax is for the little people

[sjames]

I didn't say Amazon was actually evading taxes. What they were doing was buying someone odd to be assessed les taxes. It's plenty shady, but evasion is the wrong word for it.

That's why I said "as for Amazon", to indicate that I was moving to answering a different point someone else was making (and conflating with the tax evasion sub-topic).

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

This is stupid. With your fucktarded logic, people who don't use public transportation or have kids in public school shouldn't contribute.

numbnuts

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wait until other states undercuts your third-world hellhole and those companies flee your "high-tax area". You idiots are so fucking shortsighted and those "high-tax" areas get far better services then your shithole.

Furthermore, with one or two exceptions red states take more than they give unlike just about every blue state. Your "low-taxes" are subsidized by states like NY and CA and your state is still a shithole that trails the country in every statistic except incest.

numbnuts

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone is not paying off their mortgage to save a small fraction of yearly mortgage interest, they are epic retards and have failed at life.

Pay off the mortgage and funnel the money into index funds or keep the mortgage, lose thousand in interest but gain hundreds in tax savings. Sounds like something a Trump fan would have difficulty figuring out,

Of course these idiots wouldn't want all the money made in index funds because they would pay more in taxes. They would probably turn down $1 billion in lottery winnings because of taxes also.

numbnuts

Re:Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

Moron, you misinterpreted what was said. Income taxes are not passed to the customer because business taxes are based on profit.

numbnuts

Re: Tax is for the little people

[Anonymous Coward]

It is cute that you think the $27 billion is guaranteed or has any basis in reality.

numbnuts

"A fair deal"

[HotNeedleOfInquiry]

To a corporation from a New York democrat? My sides.

You can please some of the poeple

[Anonymous Coward]

some of the time...., etc.

Amazon are scum...

[b0s0z0ku]

Amazon are scum with no regard for their customers' (or is it products') privacy.
(1) Archiving/mining/sale of purchase data
(2) Selling facial recognition systems to police agencies worldwide, including in less than savory places
(3) Normalizing always-on microphones in people's homes.

I hope this is only the beginning of the backlash against Amazon and Jeff "Pic Dick" Bezos -- the ideal end game would be a big 'ol trust busting party, as was held for AT&T in the early 1980s. Split Amazon up into 10 or so companies, then move on and do the same to Google and Microsoft.

Re:Amazon are scum...

[Kohath]

Amazon customers disagree: https://www.businesswire.com/n...

Re:Amazon are scum...

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon customers disagree: https://www.businesswire.com/n...

North Korans love their dear leader.

Despots all over Africa get 110% of the vote. Some people love their oppressor so much they voted for him twice!

What is good for the goose

[markdavis]

>"New York Mayor...' 'This is an example of an abuse of corporate power,' de Blasio told NBC"

I suppose all these major "incentives", bonuses, express permitting, promises, tax cuts, state-funded infrastructure for private benedit, and other such things are not "an example of an abuse of government power"?

Re:What is good for the goose

[markdavis]

>"Are you suggesting it's "abuse of power" to negotiate with corporations to bring their employment dollars into town, really?"

Yes, it can be. I am not saying it necessarily is, but that it can be. Especially when it is given as favors, or due to their palms being greased, or due to a conflict of interest. And it can be very harmful to the tax payer if the total cost/benefit analysis is flawed or inaccurate.

>"I guess you didn't internally check your logic before you blurted again. Typical Trump traitor problems."

You need to find some meds or something. I am neither a Trump fan nor traitor. In fact, "Trump" has nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever. Perhaps you have "Trump derangement syndrome"? But, yeah, keep flinging unfounded insults safely behind your cowardly anonymity...

Re:What is good for the goose

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you didn't internally check your logic before you blurted again. Typical Trump traitor problems.

Re:What is good for the goose

[ceoyoyo]

It surprises me that western governments are allowed to bribe corporations. Laws are supposed to apply to everyone equally.

Re:What is good for the goose

[ceoyoyo]

I'm not the OP, but I would argue that. Governments shouldn't give special treatment to individuals (including corporate individuals). Laws are supposed to apply to everyone equally.

Tax incentives to corporations are straight up bribes. Research has also shown that those bribes almost never pay off, so not only are they corruption, they're also against the public interest.

Re:What is good for the goose

[Anonymous Coward]

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
Anatole France, The Red Lily, 1894, chapter 7

How about abuse of city power

[Anonymous Coward]

for promising Amazon shit that'll never be paid back?

Player, Referee, Player

[Tokolosh]

If you are both a player and the referee, you can't complain when your opponent leaves with the ball.

Re:Player, Referee, Player

[Anonymous Coward]

This metaphor makes no sense. A state negotiated a very favorable deal with a large company for jobs. While other large companies promise jobs and then turn around and fire people for stock buybacks. It's one way trust from companies, and you STILL get idiots like the parent comment being marked "insightful" when they act like the government is the problem. FUCKING USEFUL IDIOTS.

You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

NYC makes offer to Amazon, Amazon negotiates, NYC gets ready to make loads of concessions to entice them into contract, people scream bloody murder, NYC cancels contract, Amazon walks away, NYC -> *pikachu surprised meme*

This is your fault NYC government. Not Amazon's. Yours. And while yes, you put way too much on the table in the first place, that too is your fault, not Amazon's. You could have walked away first, could have turned them down... oh wait, you actually did, but now you wanna be butthurt because Amazon accepted your rejection instead of begging you to take them back.

This is purely your fault for making terrible deals in the past to "bring jobs" to NYC. This is purely the fault of every city that has done this and created this ridiculous reality where corporations can shop around for the best deals... you are a government, not a retail business! STOP SELLING US OUT! Jobs are NOT worth it if they do not help the economy in your city/county/state. When you drop all corporate taxes for X years you are hurting your state, every time. They have no incentive to stay, so when the tax breaks are over, hey, time open a new HQ an reduce workforce to skeleton or less in the last place! And you can't stop it. So, stop doing that. Stop corporate welfare. Stop tax break incentives that last for years. You want an Amazon HQ, give them 1 year. ONE. A year of no taxes while you set up and get going, then business as usual - pay your taxes or walk on, son. Do that for everyone else. Heck, do that for NEW businesses as well! Attract that start-up! Incentivise small business growth! Anything but giving giant corporations that already pay almost no taxes yet another tax break.

An yes, i'd go so far as to charging additional tax on these massive businesses wanting to move into an area. The amount of public resources is way out of balance with the taxes they'd pay even without any tax breaks.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Jobs are NOT worth it if they do not help the economy in your city/county/state"

LOL! Those 25,000 direct jobs and untold number of indirect jobs created in the community to support the campus were estimated to generate $27 BILLION in annual revenue for the local economy (which also would've been taxed). Now they get zip. Congratulations I suppose.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

/. doesn't have moderators.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

STOP SELLING US OUT!

But, you're a profitable commodity,

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[bigpat]

Yes. This.

The rule of law means one set of rules for everyone. There shouldn't be an insurmountable wall of regulations and taxes in the first place that requires all this negotiated one-off deal making. If you want a business friendly climate then stop playing favorites to the corporations that don't need favoritism.

If you want to know what caused the systemic risk of the Great Recession of 2009, then look no further than the government regulations that failed to regulate and actually promoted the centralization and consolidation that created too big to fail institutions. And then step back and take a look at whether you can even say that the US has a free market system with the regimes of regulations that make a free market impossible.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

$27 BILLION in annual revenue for the local economy

What happens if the estimated jobs and revenue don't pan out? Amazon gets a sweet tax deal. Surprise!

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

You were sold out long time ago son, too bad you didn't pay more attention and get involved in politics to prevent inbalance you have now. Awww you were to busy searching for best deal on stuff made in China and boy didn't it made you feel smug and superior. The rooster has come home to lay some eggs and he is lovin' it.

  Now stop with those nonsense communist ideas and embrace the freedom in greatest country on the earth governed by god - you deserved it.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

/.'s user base are the moderators, which largely leans center-right libertarian. If you consider that to be far left, that's on you.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[WatchMaster]

well if they don't get the revenue, they don't pay much taxes and don't really need any sweet tax deals.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

sadly it's a shitposting hivemind that dominates *the entire WWW* these days.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[SvnLyrBrto]

Are you high? I've a *long* list of: "-1, Not kissing the ass of Dear Leader", moderations in my comment history over the last couple of years.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[misnohmer]

I was with you until the last paragraph about how the same amount of employees requires more public resources purely because they work for the same company. How exactly is one company with 25,000 workers put more strain on public resources than 25 companies with 1,000 employees each? Are you saying that breaking up companies (and government agencies) to limit them to say 100 employees each would save NYC a ton of money?

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[kenh]

Amazon got $3 BN in concessions toward what was a projected $30 BN tax bill the first ten years of the agreement.

Amazon was going to pay $27 BN to NY City & State tax collectors, now that money will go to the tax collectors in VA and TN.

But according to AOC, now NY has $3 BN to pay teachers more, medicare for all, etc. Genius. She costs NY City & State $27 BN in revenue and she's thinking of ways to spend the imaginary savings from ending the deal.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

NY never canceled the contract dumb ass.

Re: You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually think that the comments plus moderators works 'ok'. I see views of both "sides" typically represented, and the pure flame bait modded down. There was post in this thread complaining which was modded -1 troll unfairly IMO, but regardless I'd not have looked at it had the thread not talked about the leanings of Slashdot.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon specifically but other massive businesses like it, do use proportionately more public resources, by disrupting traffic in an area, clogging access to public resources with such disruption, and more. In Amazon's case, they included warehousing and additional delivery traffic to and from the area on top of employee traffic. I'm not even talking about gentrification and such, they want to drop a massive shipping operation in the middle of a non-industrial area because they are not 'traditional' manufacturing and industry. That will destroy the roads in the area in addition to shafting traffic patterns, causing road repair to either get a lot more public money dumped into it, and pushing aside plans for other road repair, or simply not get repaired as its not in the budget and won't be for years.

Those 25 smaller businesses may have similar impacts on the traffic patterns in an area, this can be controlled and accounted for by the city in granting business licenses, rezoning land distracts for business or residential, and more. Since 25 businesses of that level are not likely to spring up overnight, the city has a lot more time to study and adjust emerging traffic patterns and then plan changes to them. And, very few of them are likely to require 1/3 the volume of large-vehicle traffic in the area that Amazon will, so road maintenance planning won't be thrown completely off course. I am certain there is more, this was off the top of my head.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[Anonymous Coward]

It is both. Amazon clearly has moral responsibilities in this world.

One such responsibility is to play fair in the free market. That means do not negotiate about the regulations of the free market itself. Even doing these kinds of negotiations is immoral and Bezos should go straight to jail for destroying the free market.

Undermining the free market also undermines democracy as is shown here. Elected representatives are enticed to go against their electorate and act immoral by the sheer power of money. Amazon asks them to cheat on regulation to give them a better deal.

When corporates can negotiate which laws they need to care about, individually, which is what they did here, then there is no democracy. Running this process is the fault of Amazon and nobody else.

Jeff Bezos should be in jail.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[brianerst]

That used to be true, but tech sites have become increasingly progressive / statist / liberal (choose your moniker). Ars' commentariate can be downright Marxist.

You might notice that the GP is currently sitting at +5 informative and that most of the upvoted comments on this article are left-leaning. Hell, you are at +2 Informative as "we aren't liberal enough" AC. Slashdot's cadre of old-school libertarians is fading fast.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[misnohmer]

Zoning laws apply just the same to one large business as to 25 small ones. Just because Amazon gets a permit to build an office building for 2,000 people, doesn't give it the right to build a warehouse. Large businesses apply for many permits, it's not "one business permit per company" as you might think. Your only argument here is that a large business like Amazon hires faster, but first, that can be also be controlled via building permits if the city wants, and second, not sure that is what cities even want to do - a planned large expansion is likely to be cheaper to the city than a trickle over 10 years, for example think electric grid capacity - plunking down a new power plant and running one set of properly sized transmission lines would likely be cheaper, rather than adding small diesel generators and adding small lines every year for 10 years. Similar on expanding public transit - cheaper per capita cost to provide reliable transit for 25,000 people than 1,000.

Re:You spin me right round baby, right round...

[WCMI92]

And my point was made by the moderators. +10000 point made!

I can't stay mad at him.

[FilmedInNoir]

I'm still waiting for those sexy Jeffy Bezos dick pics The National Enquirer promised us.

Re:I can't stay mad at him.

[gtall]

Those are on hold as Pecker is convulsing over having his plea deal abrogated by the Feds for being involved in a blackmail effort. And Nat. Enq. doesn't really care about the pictures, they only wanted to stop the Wash. Post's (Bezos owns it) investigation into the corruption between Saudi Arabia and the Nat. Enq. They also wanted to make Agent Orange happy.

The blackmail is how the Nat. Enq. and Agent Orange view the world, they assumed Bezos was open to blackmail and that he was somehow directing the Wash. Post's investigations. It's straight out of Hollywood's version of how the Mafia works. That's the depth of their understanding about how to influence. Bezos turned the tables on them and now they look like the childish schoolyard bullies they are. Bezos turned their pictures into worthless trash.

It's just a matter of decisions.

[Anonymous Coward]

NYC made theirs and Amazon did that too.

Paah

[Rick Zeman]

I'd have more sympathy for Amazon if they were paying taxes instead of sucking on the public tits everywhere they want a physical presence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...

You get the idiot you voted for

[WCMI92]

That is the bottom line.

Re:You get the idiot you voted for

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL TDS

Clown show

[Anonymous Coward]

"blamed the company for making what he called an "arbitrary" decision to leave after some people objected".

It is certainly the company's "arbitrary decision" to make, and no socialist has any damn business telling any company where they should be required to set up shot, and pay local taxes. Neither Amazon, nor any other company, is required or obligated to set up shop in People's Republic Of New York.

Furthermore, why is he taking his beef with Amazon? His beef should be with Sandy from Westchester. It's her, and her ilk, who raised a hissy fit for whatever reason only they understand. They're the ones who are started yapping at Amazon, and I don't blame them for not wasting any more time, and simply taking their business where it's welcome.

This situation was a textbook case of what an abject failure our education system has become. Recall, that the former bartender supposedly had an economics degree! And she actually believed that New York was going to write a check for three billion dollars to Amazon, and objected on that basis.

So, instead of paying an estimated $25 billion in taxes they were going to pay $22 billion, after working out a deal with Super Mario Brother Jr. But, the former bartender objected about Big Evil Amazon getting a $3 billion check from the taxpayers. In the end, New York is going to get $0 billion instead. Great job. I repeat, folks, an economics degree! The people of New York elected that scatterbrain, and they simply deserve who they elected.

Re:Clown show

[rudy_wayne]

So, instead of paying an estimated $25 billion in taxes they were going to pay $22 billion, after working out a deal with Super Mario Brother Jr. But, the former bartender objected about Big Evil Amazon getting a $3 billion check from the taxpayers. In the end, New York is going to get $0 billion instead. Great job. I repeat, folks, an economics degree! The people of New York elected that scatterbrain, and they simply deserve who they elected.

The stupidity of Ms. Occasional-Cortex is irrelevent.

Amazon paid $0 federal income tax on profits of $11 Billion. Actually they paid less than zero, they got a $129 Million tax refund. Pretty nice, eh? That's two consecutive years of zero federal tax paid.

If you think they aren't going to do the same exact thing to New York and Virginia, you're dumber than that former bartender.

Re:Clown show

[kenh]

Let's say Amazon never paid incme taxes in NY State, for the sake of argument, so what? Every one of those 25K employees would have paid their income taxes, that alone is a huge net win for NY State and Queens.

Re:Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell us then, if NYC is such a communist hellhole, why don't people and businesses leave for business friendly anti-communist red states like Texas ? Care to enlighten us poor schmooks ?

Blaming the wrong party

[MikeRT]

What does that say to working people that a company would leave them high and dry simply because some people raised criticisms

Why don't you go ask Ms. Occasional-Cortex why she and her peers lead a rage mob at them when Amazon was willing to move into a community that has an average income of $15k and create jobs there? None of the "criticisms" were sober and civilly expressed. It was typical Twitter culture rage mob with over-the-top rhetoric, vilification, etc.

And then you wonder why Amazon politely says "no, you can fuck right off and die" and leaves? Truth is, if AOC and co had been civil and demanded that the benefits package be cut in half, then had been otherwise welcoming, Amazon would very likely still be moving in. This is real life, not Twitter. You don't have Jack Dorsey and his biased admins padding your safe space every night while you sleep. There are consequences.

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[Zocalo]

Maybe because Amazon wants two classes of workers. The cheap-as-peanuts ones to stuff product into packing boxes and mail them out, and the more expensive ones that help run the company, run services like EC2, and all the other "good stuff" that generally requires a higher education. Care to guess which type they need in a HQ? Do you think they're going to be employing a significant number of those from a community with an average income of $15k?

Realistically, NYC was going to get their jobs, but they were also going to all the ballooning housing prices and other issues that are plagueing places like San Francisco, Seattle, and all the other tech boom towns. That's what the root of the protests were about; sticking up for the current residents who were probably going to end up being priced out of their own neighbourhoods and trying to provide them with some safeguards.

That said, as far as the "blame" is concerned, while de Blasio does have a point, you can't really say it's entirely Amazon's fault either. It *is* their ball and money, and I'm pretty sure that Bezos is well aware of the PR issues Google is having with this kind of thing on the west coast, why would they want to invest in NYC if they are pretty much guaranteed the same kind of situation when they do? At least, not without further sweeteners perhaps?

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[Anonymous Coward]

Those ballooning housing prices are the direct result of the same local politicians and Leftist policies preventing any sort of housing programs or building expansion. San Francisco and Seattle aren't exactly conservative strongholds you know. Want to blame someone? Look in the mirror.

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[doubledown00]

Realistically, NYC was going to get their jobs, but they were also going to all the ballooning housing prices and other issues that are plagueing places like San Francisco, Seattle, and all the other tech boom towns. That's what the root of the protests were about; sticking up for the current residents who were probably going to end up being priced out of their own neighbourhoods and trying to provide them with some safeguards.

At $15,000 average income this sounds like a shitty economically blighted neighborhood. So in order to improve said neighborhood there has to be an economic driver. Any economic driver capable of making that kind of impact, be it Amazon or a Walmart Distribution Center, or anything else of like size will cause some disruption and displacement. More money chasing housing means rent will go up. Values will increase which will also increase property taxes.

All that is by design part of economic development. You can't take a shitty neighborhood, add opportunity, make it somewhat less shitty, and avoid pricing out the prior occupants of the formerly more shitty neighborhood.

Either way you try to make that omelette's, some eggs are going to break. If there is a job center in the area then at least there might be an option to subsidize some housing. Without that job center, it's just another shitty broke neighborhood into which money is poured.

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[Zocalo]

Sure, there's always going to be some disruption with this kind of thing, and if Amazon were proposing to put a distribution centre there that would almost certainly help with the creating jobs and driving the local economy (assuming a decent number of manual labour jobs rather than extensive automation, anyway). That wasn't the plan though, was it? The intention was for a second HQ which, as I noted, requires a lot of skilled labour of the kind that isn't generally found living in $15k/year neighbourhoods. Sure, that labour would have wanted support; I'm pretty sure there would be more opportunities further down the food chain (food services, cleaning, etc.), but once the already excessive NYC housing prices inevitably start to climb even higher how long do you think they're going to be able to say above the waterline, even if they did get an Amazon dividend of a few extra $k/year in their paycheck?

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[Anonymous Coward]

Ms. Occasional-Cortex

None of the "criticisms" were sober and civilly expressed

OK, I'm done with this comment.

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[nagora]

Amazon wanted those people on $15k to pay for their corporate HQ, which is part of their goal to put everyone who works in retail out of a job while having tax dollars shovelled into the company's pockets at an ever-increasing rate.

demanded that the benefits package be cut in half

What are you smoking? NYC (and everyone else) should be charging Amazon.

No, I think we'll stick with "fuck right off, Amazon, and die" thanks very much.

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[Anonymous Coward]

>Why don't you go ask Ms. Occasional-Cortex why she and her peers lead a rage mob at them

Because she learned politics on reddit.

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[doubledown00]

The plan as I understood it was a mixture of jobs. Many of their incentives were tied to the number of $150,000+ jobs created, but there were to be other opportunities as well (presumably jobs the less skilled locals could do). I don't know what the ratio was suppose to be. But beyond that HQ2 isn't the type of industry one normally finds in poor neighborhoods (junk yards, recycling, heavy industry, high polluting manufacturing, etc). You just don't find white collar office jobs relocating to these kinds of areas. That in and of its self was an intriguing possibility for the neighborhood.

The answer to your last question is, frankly, some locals wouldn't last too long......in any redevelopment scenario. Even if this were a straight warehouse paying blue collar wages ($15 - $30 an hour) there would still be more money in the local community that would drive up housing and force some people out. The difference here is that HQ2 would have created a huge wage ceiling which would have a rippling effect on the entire neighborhood. And there would absolutely be peripheral development such as restaurants, grocery stores, etc. A higher economic demographic also brings better municipal offerings like libraries, parks, college branches, etc. All this sounds like an improvement over where the area is now.

Your argument almost seems to be that a project like HQ2 would be "too good" for the neighborhood. Opportunities that can remake entire neighborhoods are few and far between.

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[thegarbz]

At $15,000 average income this sounds like a shitty economically blighted neighborhood. So in order to improve said neighborhood there has to be an economic driver.

Improving a neighbourhood through economic drivers is called gentrification. All you're doing is pricing the people who aren't part of that economic driver out of their homes into the next shithole.

At some point people stand up and say "leave our shithole alone and take your money elsewhere".

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like you blame normal financial classism on Amazon. Never is it the blame of the poor people living in one of the most expensive areas of the country when they should be living somewhere else? Some onus needs to be on the individual to move and adapt...

Re:Blaming the wrong party

[doubledown00]

Well no, that's not all they say. They also complain about why their shithole neighborhoods don't have the same opportunities as more well off neighborhoods. And that can be a valid concern as the residents are tax paying citizens too. But their "choices" as far as lifestyle goes has far reaching effects in terms of the cities at large. Neighborhoods like that become havens for crime and generational poverty. If one wants to live in squalor, that's their god given right. What they *don't* get to do is have their personal choices become externalities on everyone else.

One cannot complain about their poor neighborhoods needing improvement but then also complain about how that problem is solved. To just give money to these neighborhoods without changing the fundamentals of how the people live and function would be to throw these funds away.

I'm guessing that after the deal was struck

[bobstreo]

that there weren't as much "campaign contributions" to politicians and "gifts" to local "civic" leaders as they expected.

Re:I'm guessing that after the deal was struck

[Anonymous Coward]

tada! someone figured it out.

"Moronic corporate apologist blathers bullshit"

[Anonymous Coward]

"News after film"

Nazi Republican fantasist discovers Fentanyl...

[Anonymous Coward]

And goes full head-in-ass nazi faggot propagandist. News after film : The Downfall. (Hint : It's about the death of the Republican nazi party, you faggots went all in on a traitor. Enjoy prison!)

A few loudmouths screamed

[Anonymous Coward]

It wasn't general outrage.

It wasn't democracy.

It was the same arrogant, ignorant loudmouths who think they know better, doing their normal crap of forcing people to do "what's best for themselves":

POLL: Majority of New Yorkers Supported Amazon Moving to NYC

...

A significant majority (56 percent) of all New Yorkers approved of the plan while 36 percent disapproved. Among New York City residents support was slightly stronger at 58 percent.

Support was most pronounced among minorities: 70 percent of black voters approved while just 25 percent disapproved, and 81 percent of Latinos approved compared to 17 percent who disapproved.

...

So a bunch of white entitled suburban "progressives" thought they knew what's best for actual working-class blacks and Latinos.

And they fucked it up.

Imagine that.

Re:DNC platform

[Darinbob]

The number of jobs that companies promise in exchange for tax breaks has always been a lie. The actual jobs are always a small fraction of what was originally claimed, and the promised increase in revenue to the cities never actually shows up.

If a municipality or state makes an agreement here to get new business relocated, then they should be putting in hard requirements into the deals. Ie, reduce the taxes only if the promises are kept, increasing them proportionate to how far apart the promises and reality actually are.

Politicians weasel out of this though. When the jobs don't show up the politicians never takes the blame, but just passes it along to the company ("how was I to know they didn't consider a handshake to be binding?") or to an opposing party ("they undermined me at every turn!").

Oh look. Slashdot is shilling for socialists again

[RightwingNutjob]

Look at my big surprised face.

Now just watch the other businesses that supply the Other People's Money that prop up de Blasio's bourgeois socialism start to decamp to less crazy jurisdictions and New York will be right back where it was in the 1970s: broke, crime-ridden, and ready to elect Republicans again.

Absolutely 100% wrong again.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's definitely immoral to cheat the society that supports you (yes, it does lying Libertarian morons) of out your fair share of payment/work credits for that benefit you've taken by living here. Corporations blur that responsibility effectively.

Not only don't they "live" really, they can dissolve their reputations at will, they can be owned and based out of anywhere, they follow "international law" meaning the lowest common denominator possible as jurisdictional at all,
they can spend their nigh-limitless wealth buying lobbyists and legal dirty tricksters and tabloid smear rags and hacker teams (all of this "Presidential" now...) that hard-working responsible citizens really never can....
the list of dichotomies goes on almost forever.

To emulate that in your daily life is not only immoral, un-American, cowardly, cheat-your-neighbors-y, and dishonest... it literally makes you a bad person. You should truly reflect on your avoidance of service.

You and Trump probably never will, being selfishness and excuses made corporeal and nothing more, (do you have bone spurs by any chance, coward?) but really on a developmental level, you ought to.

Good luck correcting.

Re: Absolutely 100% wrong again.

[Anonymous Coward]

The preceding addled screed was brought to you by METH.

Meth - it rots your brain!

Re:DNC platform

[Anonymous Coward]

See : Trump tax "cuts" that are now killing blue collar Republicans in red states who are fuming and swear they won't be fooled again, lol. Idiots.

so many people mourning a corrupt backroom deal

[Anonymous Coward]

it's almost like this country we live in and its people are super corrupt.

Wah, why can't Republicanism be legitimate too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you faggots cry too much, lie too much, blather too much bullshit, and don't read enough to know Socialism from clean potable drinking water or school lunches or interstate highways with inmate chain gangs cleaning up.

You're morons, not legitimately anything beyond that politically. You can be riled up in any direction, as Trump's crying about Obama's executive orders vis a vis "wall emergency, after golf..." - Face it, you fuck yourselves daily now.

Keep crying though, I do love it lol. When Trump goes to prison you can get a tattoo tear next to your eye.

Re:Wah, why can't Republicanism be legitimate too?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you consider yourself a Democrat, a liberal, a progressive, then you are a socialist and commie piece of trash.

We do not negotiate with treasonous socialists.

We know exactly who and what you are and what you believe. We reject it completely. You will get no quarter from us. Complete surrender is your only hope.

Re:Wah, why can't Republicanism be legitimate too?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't know anything about anything lol. Uneducated inbred retards of no social, economic, scientific, evolutionary, intellectual or ethical value. You are trash, and thanks to Traitor Drumpf being so incompetent at treason, you're taking yourselves out.

As Darwinism intended and predicted. Bye nazi Felatios!

Re:Wah, why can't Republicanism be legitimate too?

[ChrisMaple]

How do you know if the current mayor of New York City is a Republican?

The city doesn't smell like urine.

It was only 1/2 a new Headquarters

[Doctor-R]

The original proposal was for a second Headquarters with 50,000 new jobs. But, there were two 'winners' each with 25,000 new jobs. So bait and switch, big time. So is it sort-of Headquarters 2 and 3 or HQ 2.0 and HQ 2.5. Amazon did not follow through with their promised prize.

Re: It was only 1/2 a new Headquarters

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon did not promise anything about the move. The HQ move was based on incorrect claims made by the city. End of story. I would suggest looking up the word promise in case you have never seen a serious promise.

Re:It was only 1/2 a new Headquarters

[kenh]

I suggest the name become HQ2/2 to represent half the HQ2 they originally described.

Re:DNC platform

[apoc.famine]

It's worse than that. Companies often get massive investments into the infrastructure that they will need to use, which often isn't included in the original deal. Power, water and sewer, transportation, etc. The rationale is that there's budget for improving those things anyway, and might as well improve them for the company which will now have thousands of employees and a giant building complex using all that.

This means that communities which aren't near the company and which had been earmarked for infrastructure upgrades now lose out, so the company can benefit.

Re: "Moronic corporate apologist blathers bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Brilliant! Just brilliant! Astounding!!!!!!!!

just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Who here volunteers to pay more taxes than the law requires?

On the odd chance you do, wouldn't you feel better giving to a charity that you agree with instead of the government, which you are likely to have significant disagreements with?

Tell it to the warden, Drumpftard traitors.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah bro, like that libtard Robert Swan Mueller III, he sure seems irrational. Tell it to the warden Mr. Kompromat POTUS, your ass is about to be opened up to the size of a basketball. Prison for life.

Re: Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about NY, but as a Texan I can assure you that we are seeing a mass influx from California for this very reason.

de Blaisio is a Social Democrat, just like Hitler

[Anonymous Coward]

de Blasio's statement straight from the Nazi party a few weeks ago claiming that "the money is in the wrong hands" should be sending alarms through out the world. Heir de Blasio is repeating history by claiming that those who he doesn't agree with have too much money just as Hitler and Himmler did in 1930's against the Jews and aristocrats who didn't agree with him.

HISTORY IS BEING REPEATED by angry Democrats who only want someone else to pay for what they want. Amazon pulling out was a smart move as they saw how the Democrats were going to screw them as they screw everyone. The unions and the politicians began their attacks of "I WANT, I WANT". Well, they don't DESERVE anything You EARN IT just as Amazon has done.

Idiot Americans, wake up to these evil people.

Re:Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[rotorbudd]

New York ranks No. 1 in losing residents to other states

https://www.bizjournals.com/ne...
They are leaving. I quote:
  Looking at New York City specifically, the area with the largest percentage of residents lost to other states came from the zip code 10075, in the Upper East Side, which faced a 9.3 percent decrease in its population from 2015 to 2016

Wumpus the flake 100% wrong again.

[Anonymous Coward]

^^ "Idiot deliberately mischaracterizes argument in desperate attempt to run from the fact that his entire life is 100% dependent on both government and citizens who pay taxes and serve to support it, because he's simply just a flake."

YMMV bro, you are the bare minimum bottom-scrape of the societal barrel. You are the corporatist scum personified. Whatever we might accomplish in reigning in a corrupted lobbyist-feedback government is on hold for now, you're simply too dishonest to ever actually get there. "Drain the swamp" indeed, said the swamp, pointing at the shoreline, the "real swamp" - you're just so predictably dishonorable.

I pity Ayn Rand goofs like you. Obviously you never served.

Re:Wumpus the flake 100% wrong again.

[Anonymous Coward]

^^ "Idiot deliberately mischaracterizes argument in desperate attempt to run from the fact that his entire life is 100% dependent on both government and citizens who pay taxes and serve to support it, because he's simply just a flake."

YMMV bro, you are the bare minimum bottom-scrape of the societal barrel. You are the corporatist scum personified. Whatever we might accomplish in reigning in a corrupted lobbyist-feedback government is on hold for now, you're simply too dishonest to ever actually get there. "Drain the swamp" indeed, said the swamp, pointing at the shoreline, the "real swamp" - you're just so predictably dishonorable.

I pity Ayn Rand goofs like you. Obviously you never served.

No one is stopping you from donating more or your money to that wonderful government than they demand, asswipe.

I bet you don't do that, do you?

Because unless you do, you're one big fat hypocrite for expecting Amazon to do any different.

But that's probably too difficult for your small mind to comprehend.

Why do I get the impression that elementary school was the best decade of your life, where you ruled to roost as the biggest kid on the block: the only one able to drive himself to 6th grade.

Bezos likes sex with farm animals

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what real news says.

Re:DNC platform

[Anonymous Coward]

If a municipality or state makes an agreement here to get new business relocated, then they should be putting in hard requirements into the deals.

And how do you enforce those "hard requirements"?

Answer: You can't.

The most you can do is take away the tax breaks, which the vast majority of politicians are too corrupt and cowardly to do. And even if you do that, the company just packs up and leaves. Going off to somewhere else to find a new sucker.

I challenge anyone to show me ONE example of a company anywhere in the U.S. that received large tax breaks and actually produced any significant benefit for the city they're in.

Who ran the numbers first?

[King_TJ]

It seems to me like a LOT of people involved with or impacted by this Amazon HQ being in, vs. leaving New York are just running off emotions and assumptions?

To determine if this was a "good deal" for NY taxpayers, you have to look at many factors and crunch all the numbers. I'm confident the likes of Cortex didn't do so, but I question if DeBlasio did either?

I mean, you have to calculate impact of the extra traffic it generates .... the extra demand on public utilities like electric power, sewer and water. You obviously have to look at how much you gave Amazon in tax breaks and benefits, vs. how much they'll really benefit the public with new jobs. (How much will you collect in taxes from the people they hire?) And if the deal wasn't struck with a clause in it that required Amazon STAY there for a number of years -- you have to try to take an educated guess about the long-term future. Many times, companies take advantage of these deals to put a business in a state, only to pull back out as soon as the perks expire.

I don't know if the HQ was a good deal of Queens or it wasn't .... but the people making the decision should sure know, and I'm not confident any of them do?

Re:Who ran the numbers first?

[Mitreya]

if the deal wasn't struck with a clause in it that required Amazon STAY there for a number of years

Also, tax credit should be a percentage (e.g., 10% discount) rather than a fixed figure (e.g., $3 billion).
It is a bad negotiation tactic to offer a fixed amount, because what happens when Amazon brings $5 billion revenue over 10 years instead of "estimated" $30 billion?

Re:Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[Anonymous Coward]

People and businesses ARE leaving New York and California in droves for places like Texas. Wake up and look around. 2020 census estimates are already projected both states losing House seats due to their decline in population.

Re:DNC platform

[Aighearach]

In my State those sort of tax breaks are tied to the actual creation of the jobs, and are received retrospectively. So when they lie about how many jobs they'll create, they're also lying to themselves about how much of a tax credit they'll get.

The Wisconsin thing worked the same way. In the end they don't get their tax breaks, they only got media reports saying they did.

The company got an option to create jobs and get a tax break.

Gov demands

[AHuxley]

Organized labor and having to hire public housing residents.

Who wants to become full union and have to get told who to hire by a gov?
Hire on merit and grow as a brand.
Find a state and city that welcomes innovation and jobs.
Not a state that places demands on needing a union and who to hire.

Once a gov says who to hire, the next part is how many to hire.

Real cause of real estate inflation

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot the fact that Chinese nationals were snapping up property all over Seattle and SF in Cash, no matter the price, combined with the free flow of lending for real people who want a real home and not a mothball closet to sell later for 3x profit.

Then the FHA loans at 3% down on top of it all, to house itinerant software devs who know they will be leaving in less than 3 years to boot.

Which part of that is the local governments being socialist?

Port Arthur, Texas ...

[CaptainDork]

... and the refineries ca. 1903 and forward.

Texaco, Gulf Oil, Mobil Oil, Shell, ...

Port Arthur is the place the injection would go if Texas got an enema. Janice Joplin thought so.

I just had to get out on the Texas plane, Lord, well it was bringing me down Yeah, I had to get out of Texas, baby, Lord, it was bringing me down I been all around the world, but Port Arthur is the worst place that I've ever found I guess they couldn't understand it there, honey, they'd laugh me off the street! Lord, I guess they couldn't understand me, baby, honey, they'd laugh, I said they'd laugh me right off the street, yeah I said I want to keep on moving, baby, be the last person I ever wanna meet Yeah, yeah, yeah, honey ain't it hard when you're all alone Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, honey ain't it hard, Lord, when you're all alone I might die real old lady, but I'd never call Texas my home, no, no, no, oh!

I worked at Texaco 7 (1974 - 1981) years as a journeyman instrumentman.

I asked the guys there, "Where's the goddam golden statue of the fucking mayor?" I told them "There must be a gold statue somewhere because Port Arthur is poor as dirt and has billions of fucking dollars flowing in and out of the port. Where's the prosperity? Why is Port Arthur such a fucking violent racist impoverished piece of shit?"

They said the refineries often threatened to leave (as if they would take the tanks and towers anywhere) if the city taxed them. The plant managers and suits didn't live in Port Arthur. They commuted from Houston and Dallas. The money never landed in Port Arthur.

Nowadays, the Saudis own the whole goddam town and the buildings are painted with murals in a pitiful attempt by the downtowners to revitalize.

Saudis take 100% control of America's largest oil refinery

I'm an area photographer and I won't go to Port Arthur in the daytime.

Re:Port Arthur, Texas ...

[ChrisMaple]

Janis Joplin died of a heroin overdose at age 27. That is not an indicator of a person whose opinions you should base your life on.

Re:Port Arthur, Texas ...

[CaptainDork]

It's not that I do't care about your remark, it's just that it doesn't matter.

Re:Port Arthur, Texas ...

[Anonymous Coward]

and why is that ?

how about one of the tens of thousands of successful doctors who accidentally administered patient overdoses, should we listen to them? I guess their opinions are more valuable because the consequences of overdosing are small when one is already in a medical facility.

Or in other words

[cascadingstylesheet]

You wanted them to come and be your live in whipping boy, and when you bragged to your usual audiences about how badly you were going to whip them, they reconsidered for some mysterious reason.

Re:Or in other words

[LittleNegative]

? In this case I take it "whipping boy" means an entity that receives almost $3 million in subsidies.

Pray NYC doesn't alter it further

[Anonymous Coward]

New York CIty offered Amazon terms and Amazon accepted them, so it thought it had a deal. Then NYC politicians and activists started talking about reneging, and Amazon bailed. If NYC had wanted different terms, it should have offered them. It's easy to assume this was just the harbinger of more garbage down the road, so I don't blame Amazon one bit for pulling the plug rather than get embroiled in endless warfare with people who can't be trusted to keep a bargain.

Amazon paid state and local - that's what matters

[drnb]

Amazon has paid hundreds of millions in state and local taxes. That is why matters to New York state and New York City, not *federal* taxes.

What does it say?

[smoot123]

What does that say to working people that a company would leave them high and dry simply because some people raised criticisms?

What does it say? It says companies care a lot about their reputations. It says that companies don't want to set up shop where even a small minority object. It says that companies, even very large ones, can't afford to piss off their customers.

And most importantly, Mayor de Blasio, it says that you don't have a right to those jobs. People get to make deals and they get to walk away from them if they change their minds. Perhaps you should think about that a little harder the next time you offer a sweetheart deal to some company.

Wasn't the government's fault

[rsilvergun]

hell, you said so in the first paragraph. The Gov't of NYC was ready to bend over backwards. Excuse me, let me rephrase that, they were ready to bend the taxpayer over backwards.

The NYC taxpayers, OTOH, took exception with what amounted to handing Amazon $3 billion dollars in return for some jobs that may or may not materialize and that, even if they did, might end up going to folks brought in from out of state. They're the ones that shut down the deal by loudly protesting and making it clear that if their "leaders" went ahead with the giveaway there'd be a blood bath at the polls next election.

Like I said on the last NYC Amazon thread, Bully for them. It's high time we start standing up to these corporate A-holes and taking our country back from them.

Re:Wasn't the government's fault

[kenh]

NY City and State lost out on $27 BN in new tax revenue over the next ten years because a few vocal economic geniuses were butt hurt over the 10% discount the politicians offered to gain the 90% in actual revenue.

AOC didn't save NYC $3BN, she cost it $27BN - and she wants you to celebrate her achievement. Now Democrats are protesting AGAINST job creation... That's a first.

Re:Wasn't the government's fault

[h33t l4x0r]

Now Democrats are protesting AGAINST job creation... That's a first.

Those jobs will still be created, they'll just be created somewhere other than Queens. And anyway, aren't you Trump supporters supposed to hate Amazon too?

Re:Wasn't the government's fault

[Anonymous Coward]

By that argument, any corporation should be free to negotiate away any law. By that standard, anyone should be able to negotiate away being liable for murder, if they just pay enough.

The whole point of a free market is that participants are treated equally. What you are proposing is neither free market, moral, or efficient.

Re:Wasn't the government's fault

[Anonymous Coward]

Now Democrats are protesting AGAINST job creation... That's a first.

Those jobs will still be created, they'll just be created somewhere other than Queens. And anyway, aren't you Trump supporters supposed to hate Amazon too?

No, hate is what the left in America does.

abuse of corporate power =

[Anonymous Coward]

"You didn't do what we wanted."

Whatever ...

[CaptainDork]

Game's over and the score has been recorded.

Draft some politicians that won't piss off the Pope and stuff.

It is kind of amazing

[Crashmarik]

NY politicians cost the neighborhood billions in tax dollars (Hint there's CITY income taxes) lost property tax revenue, lost sales tax revenue, lost taxes on all the businesses that would have provided infrastructure on this

And idiots that lost out are celebrating the fact their politicians were too damn greedy and demanding bribes from Amazon .

Re:It is kind of amazing

[kenh]

NY politicians offered a 10% discount on a projected ten-year $30 BN tax bill. NY State lost out on $27BN in income because AOC didn't like the 10% discount to get the income. Brilliant.

Re:It is kind of amazing

[Crashmarik]

NY politicians offered a 10% discount on a projected ten-year $30 BN tax bill. NY State lost out on $27BN in income because AOC didn't like the 10% discount to get the income. Brilliant.

She didn't just dislike the idea she is upset that the "discount" that was to be given to Amazon isn't being spent on community projects. As I said elsewhere criticism is completely inappropriate for Occasionally Coherent only ridicule will do.

Don't want to pay taxes, fine! LEAVE SOCIETY.

[Anonymous Coward]

You think "governmental" (sic, you're sick mentally) greed comes close to corporate greed or even approaches it, lol. You're a moron. Go drink your gasoline, trust me, it's safe.

If you don't want to live in society NOBODY IS FORCING YOU. LEAVE FAGGOT TRAITOR DRUMPFTARDS, LEAVE EN MASSE. Put your bitch money where your punk ass is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBEXGL1Brw4 - AND YOU SUPPORT THIS FUCKING CRIMINAL THE WHILE? Get fucked in prison please, you need that traitor.

Re: Don't want to pay taxes, fine! LEAVE SOCIETY.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not possible to leave society anymore.
Try living off of your land when the tax man comes and takes the land for not paying property taxes. Even if you live on your own land, produce everything you need, do not drive or otherwise leave your land, you are still forced to pay for YOUR land and be part of society as you cannot pay your taxes with crops or animal skins.

Go look at all the 'patriots'...

[Anonymous Coward]

Who are cozying up to Putin, Kim, and Jiping.

The old guard who died in the past 30 years or so must be rolling in their graves.

De Blasio knows better

[Anonymous Coward]

With Micheal Gianaris on the NY Public Authorities Control Board being against it it wan't going to Happen until he liked it.
It was also in his district.
The board was established back when NY city went into near backruptcy and the state wanted some control.
The other problem was a memory of Robert Moses. He was the one in the 1950 who wanted to and did bulldoze neighborhood to build freeways.
Sorry guys , but we need this neighborhood for a hyperspacial bypass.
Mike said no and he has the power.

Re:Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[kenh]

NY State is offering companies 10 year tax amnesty to relocate to NY. They aren't getting many takers.

Texas, on the other hand is the latest escape destination for CA corporations, is seeing explosive job growth.

The Queens location would have been good for Amazon and the city, but AOC wanted a scalp, so those 25K jobs are going elsewhere.

Tennessee and VA thank AOC for her help in generating job growth in their states.

You Suck, de Blasio

[Anonymous Coward]

You Suck, de Blasio. Any company can pull out of a planned locate any time for any reason. Your stupidity and the liberal left are what fucked the deal.

Make up your mind, New York

[mschuyler]

What New York politician did NOT tell Amazon to take a hike? So Amazon takes a hike as ordered and now it's "not fair" that they did???? How absurdly hypocritical.

No, they lost out on the _potential_ revenue

[rsilvergun]

from a company with a history of not paying taxes.

The expected outcome, based on prior experience, is that Amazon would have pocketed their subsidies and then when they dried up left.

This isn't Job Creation, it's Job Extortion.

Nice right wing talking points ya got there, BTW. Even worked in some AOC there even though she had nothing to do with it except personally opposing the deal. Do you work for a right wing think tank or just parrot everything they tell you to for free?

Corporation avoids controversy, who is surprised?

[misnohmer]

Amazon doesn't want to build HQ somewhere where they are going to be picketed, attacked and vilified. Even if those attacks come from a vocal minority, in the age of social outrage that is not good for business. So they'll go somewhere where they are going to be welcome, or just spread their employees across different places to diversify their locations and reduce the risk being targeted by outraged people. How does this surprise anyone? I'm neither defending or attacking anyone here, just stating this was the obvious logical outcome.

Pot meet kettle

[nehumanuscrede]

Greed driven corporations are pretty bad, I'll give you that.
However, they don't hold a candle to the corruption and abuse of power your typical politician wields.

Watching a politician pretending to be all righteous against $subject is most amusing.

Government should decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Government should decide where businesses locate based on the need for jobs and supply of labor, so that the needs of the many are seen to before the needs of the very few, the 1%.

Central planning would go a long way to alleviate many of our social and economic problems but stupid rednecks just don't have the stomach to admit they can't take care of themselves.

nah, the unions there hate jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

They (particularly the teachers' unions who got their butts kicked by former gov Walker) screamed and complained about the need for jobs, then Walker cut a deal with Foxconn to bring in jobs and those very same unions started screaming about how awful those jobs would be and they even circulated complaints that the new foxconn facility would replace some farms and cows (interesting given the "green" drive to eliminate cows and their farts). Then they got the new Democrat governor they wanted elected and then Foxconn announced a roll-back of the jobs and those same union beasts amazingly started complaining again.

It's truly impressive watching unions go beyond two-faced to three-faced. The other thing that always impresses me is how completely they brainwash their members to buy into and support their arguments and propaganda no matter how cirular and/or contradictory the message becomes.

Any big employer would be wise to steer clear of Wisconsin whenever thay have a union-preferred Democrat governor; there's no way to plan for the policy whiplashes.

Re:nah, the unions there hate jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

You are quite full of shit with your portrayal of Wisconsin and Unions. Have you ever even been to the state?

Re: nah, the unions there hate jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions are a bunch of self serving dirt bags that constantly try to figure out how they can get their lazy members more while pimping the promise that their members can be even lower performing dirt bags than they were the year before.

Fuck unions. Their need for existence has largely been extinguished in the US, and at this point they purely exist to create inefficiencies in capitalism.

Social media, the ten thousand employees review sites, transportation, etc all work together to reduce organizations ability to be shitty to employees. You think unions solve that issue / the reality is that in his day and age media and society are arbiters every day in organiations behavior.

Unions ðY(TM)

You need a basic accounting class

[Anonymous Coward]

ALL expenses, and that includes all taxes, become part of the cost of doing business and are passed-on to the consumer as part of the cost of the goods and/or services provided by the consumer to the customer. Money passed-on to the CEO and the share holders also count as expenses and are also passed along to the consumer. Government penalties for bad corporate behavior are also passed along to the consumer.

Leftists simply refuse to recognize these most-basic facts of normal bookkeeping as they call for business taxes, and penalties on businesses, etc. The only way to punish a corporation for bad behavior is to go after the executives PERSONALLY, but that would run counter to the basic leftist anti-evil-corporation narrative. The lefties never actually want to go after the executives themselves and the money they got from the corporations because so many of those very wealthy executives are themselves leftists (Gates, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Bloomberg, Buffet, etc)

Re:Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[virtig01]

NY State is offering companies 10 year tax amnesty to relocate to NY. They aren't getting many takers.

That offer doesn't include NYC. Of course a company would rather relocate to Austin than Utica.

It's so ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

These people have the oligarchs plundering the wealth of the world right across the street, but the news is that Amazon is a big bad bully. Amazon needs to pay some real taxes like all of the other giant leeches, but they aren't the ones actively rigging the system six ways to Sunday. Amazon feeds off of us all by simply "playing by the rules" that the finance demons have created.

Abuse? ABUSE?

[ScentCone]

This from the politicians in the main city of a state where the governor is extorting financial institutions into denying services like insurance and banking to non-profits that don't sit on their approved side of politics. NY politicians have absolutely ZERO room to complain that a company which finds setting up shop there to be distasteful is somehow "abusing" them. Nonsense.

Make your own Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't force a company to be there. If you don't like it start your own Amazon.

De Blasio got it right

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked at Amazon, not a fulfillment center, but as one of the blue badge corporate workers. I can attest, every deal you make with Amazon is bait and switch, no negotiating, take it or leave it AND you better pretend to be happy about it or no deal either. The company is rotten from the root and simply will never change and will never see it either.

Re:DNC platform

[Anonymous Coward]

increasing them proportionate to how far apart the promises and reality actually are.

Hell, no. They need to add punitive payments, otherwise the whole risk is still on the cities side.

Re: Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[Anonymous Coward]

I left NYC and took my business and its 200 jobs to South Carolina. That was 10 years ago and I've never once regretted it.

Abuse of CORPORATE power?

[Chas]

Sorry, the government officials had a meeting of the minds with Amazon when the deal was struck.
Others, who had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROCESS, had no actual skin in the game, and likely didn't understand what was being done here (AOC) AT ALL came in and basically stuck their noses where they weren't wanted.

Now, 25K jobs. GONE.
Tax revenues in the billions. GONE.

Smooth fuckin' move...

Re:Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[notaspy]

also from the bizjournals.com article comes this confusing sentence, which indicates NY state ranks in a tie (with NJ) for 4th in net outward migration.

In terms of percentages, New York ties with New Jersey at minus-0.9 percent in terms of net migration. It is closely followed by Connecticut, with minus-1 percent net migration, and Illinois and North Dakota tied for third with a minus-1.1 percent change in migration.

Put the blame where it belongs

[Anonymous Coward]

The mainstream media is where the blame lies. They have put AOC on a pedestal despite the fact that she - by Bill DeBlasio's own statements - has no basic understanding of how things work. She and her ilk have been lionized by the media and the resistance against all things Trump without actually vetting her knowledge or abilities. Now she crows about the benefits of losing 25,000 good jobs plus all the feeder jobs. And the NYT is still gushing about how they dodged that terrible capitalism bullet. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/0... [nytimes.com] You know the left has gone insane when uber-Leftist Bill DeBlasio rants about how unfair it was that Amazon decided they were not welcome and left for more warmer climes. Pull your head out dude, your sycophant lackeys ran them off. Didn't you get the memo? Amazon is the new capitalist Boogeyman of the left.

The media has gone full-on crazy. They place anyone on a pedestal that wants to be part of the Trump resistance regardless of their competence, experience, integrity or understanding. That's why we get nonstop stories on self important thought leader racists and imbeciles like Jussie Smollet, AOC, Ilhan Omar, Elizabeth Warren and demigods like the six month messiah Michael Avenatti. How did all that Avenatti worship work out for them? Still "bogus"? The media loves crazy so much that you would think that Trump would be their Gender-Neutral-Upright-Homonid-of-the-Year.

Income tax can be gamed

[Anonymous Coward]

How much income does Jeff Bezos make? If he is smart it is zero dollars. With his level of wealth, he no longer needs an income. If he wants to buy something, he can take out a loan and use some of his billions in stock value as collateral. No income, no income taxes.

Steve Jobs never had a salary at Apple. Neither does Warren 'boo hoo my secretary pays a higher rate than me' Buffet at his company. Somehow both of them got praised for this in the MSM.

Re:Income tax can be gamed

[Anonymous Coward]

How much income does Jeff Bezos make? If he is smart it is zero dollars.

No, if he is smart, he takes home only as much income as he can make while staying within the zero percent tax bracket.

If he wants to buy something, he can take out a loan and use some of his billions in stock value as collateral.

Do you work for a bank? Why the fuck would a guy with supposedly so much wealth want to take out a loan and burn some of his capital paying for interest on said loan when he could just finance his purchase entirely on his own and pay nothing in interest? What kind of nonsense thinking is this?

Re:Income tax can be gamed

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more efficient. Someone at Bezos' level doesn't really have any worry of going broke. He can borrow money at 5% for a secured loan and make it back in spades on stock appreciation. Even a "dumb" S&P 500 index fund averages 10% over the long haul.

Bongo the politician

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Cue a Life in Hell cartoon, where little Bongo is standing there on a chair, caught witb cookie crumbs on his mouth, "It was an abuse of corporate power."

Re: Don't want to pay taxes, fine! LEAVE SOCIETY.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not possible to leave society anymore. Try living off of your land when the tax man comes and takes the land for not paying property taxes. Even if you live on your own land, produce everything you need, do not drive or otherwise leave your land, you are still forced to pay for YOUR land and be part of society as you cannot pay your taxes with crops or animal skins.

Like a typical, self reliant, capitalist pig, you are thinking inside the box . You need to think more like a socialist. By Moving to San Francisco, you can live unfettered inside that box on the street of your choosing and you will be free of all taxes, worries and restrictions. The government will even give you free needles to shoot the drugs of your choice. You will get free food, money and healthcare. The world is your oyster or rather your bathroom. You can shit freely upon the streets or sidewalks with no shame or repercussions. If you feel particularly energetic, you can break into bourgeois cars parked upon your streets and reclaim the wealth that has been wrongfully plundered from Proletariat beings like yourself. It is a socialist paradise. See? Leaving society is possible.

New York's next high rise is a big middle finger

[hyades1]

Let's hope New York's citizen uprising means the beginning of the end for corporate welfare queens extorting taxpayers for a free ride.

The best summary of what really goes on in these "negotiations" was provided by a Toronto real estate lawyer at one of the public meetings held when Amazon claimed to be considering the city for its second headquarters.

The lawyer said people shouldn't get bent out of shape over what provincial and city politicians were promising Amazon, because there was no way they were going to set up shop in Toronto anyway. The sole purpose of talking to Toronto was to see how much the city would offer in concessions. Because they weren't seriously considering Toronto, Amazon could just keep pushing and pushing to see how much they could get. When Toronto finally threw up its hands in disgust, Amazon would take the last offer and wave it under the nose of the next sucker on their list, and say, "This is what we walked away from. What will YOU give us?"

The lawyer's funniest (and probably most accurate) remark concerned how to sort out the places that had some chance versus those that had no chance. "Find out where the CEO has a summer home. Draw a hundred kilometre circle around it. Cities inside the circle have a chance. Cities outside it are sucker bait".

deBlasio's existence is abusive to everyone in NYC

[Anonymous Coward]

deBlasio's existence is abusive to everyone in NYC

Re:Amazon saw the writing on the wall.

[Anonymous Coward]

North Carolina is also booming. I mean, it was doing well for the last 20 years, but it's REALLY doing well now.

De Blasio is a POS

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is nobody pointing out what a POS de Blasio is. This guy is human fucking garbage.

Who cares what he says.

Democrats are the petulant children/sore losers

[Hillie]

The entire situation is absurd. After the LOTR orc-like invasion on the Supreme Court after Kavanaugh, and all the reactive violent protesting after not getting their way each and every time (including the 2016 Presidential election), they call Amazon a petulant child for walking away from a bad business deal.

New York could basically be compared to Darth Vader while Amazon is Lando Calrissian in The Empire Strikes Back, where Vader alters the deal and says "Pray I do not alter it further."

When Amazon gets there, New York says they want Amazon to pay for all these extra programs and all this nonsense and on top of that AOC wouldn't give them a $3 billion tax break because the money is better spent elsewhere, even though them walking away from the deal means they won't be paying any taxes whatsoever, as usual proving AOC to be enormously ignorant.

Amazon simply made a good solid business decision to walk away from a bad deal.

The attitude of AOC and the other "activists" that were dead-set against Amazon coming to NY had made their decision long before any negotiations took place. Their misguided hatred of corporations that most "blame the man" poor people types have caused what democrats always do-- To assume mal intent on the part of the person you're about to have a discussion with so it is impossible to have a good discussion because one side is already convinced you're trying to screw them over.

Furthermore when Amazon said they made it a hostile environment to do business they hit the nail on the head with democrats. Hostile environment.

Feminists create a hostile dating environment, where you have to walk on eggshells to not get a false sex assault / harassment / rape accusation.
SJWs create a hostile social environment where you have to walk on eggshells to not offend anyone.
Corporate hating types create a hostile business environment where they want to take as much as they can from a rich corporation without giving anything in return.

In fact, people like AOC want to take as much as they can from everybody else while giving the absolute minimum they can in return. Don't believe me? Try to sell stuff on Craigslist or FB Marketplace-- The kingdom of lowballers.. They will try to get you to sell it for the lowest you possibly will accept and even con you by saying they have some incredibly low amount of money right now that they could show up in your house in an hour and buy it for, and it's like less than half of what you were asking for, which is already 30% less than you could get on eBay or Amazon.

NY

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like a weird place with weird people.

Re:DNC platform

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what happened to the DNC, but your little tirade isn't describing the party, the platform, or the green new deal. What in the literal fuck happened to your brain?