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Internet2 Going Live
IronMonkey writes
"For those whose bandwidth cravings can never be satisfied,
Internet2 is finally going live for testing to network 50
universities at 2.4G-bps! All over SONET, of course. The
group who is putting together the Internet2 is planning on
final network speeds of 10G-bps. "
Can someone make my bedroom a node on that thing please?
LOL theres that "live for testing" contradiction again...any administrator knows its in testing or live but to live test something is a perscription for trouble...as to your history notes ...alas yon poor fool forgets the DARPA created both the first inter-network and the protocols under D.O.D. orders...about time the citizens of this country get a peace divided from the trillions of dollars pissed away on the cold war (look it up, you were probably in diapers in 89 when it ended)
Pity the map isn't accurate. Otherwise, it
would appear that the KC to Minneapolis link
through Iowa runs past the general neighborhood
of my family's farm...
I live right near the University of Washington. Its Department of Computing and Communications wrote the PINE, PiCo, and Pilot software included in most Linux distributions, installed several hundred RS-6000 clusters serving tens of thousands of Seattle residents who are involved in the UW or the government, has over 1,500 X-Terminals (supposedly more than any other organization in the country) and lots and lots of text terminals, and is a hotbed of Microsoft propaganda and agitation :).
No, I think the real reason was to provide I2 access to doctors working on telemedicine projects that connect the various medical schools to Alaska and the small towns in Eastern Washington, Idaho and Montana. These things really eat up bandwith, and the UW is the other end of a lot of videoconferencing connections.
Of course, Microsoft money might be involved too - where do you think the Paul Allen Library came from?
~
cloudfree
cloudfree@mostlysunny.com
Umm... When was the last time you read your net history? Private? The net started from Colleges and the US Military. It created biusness. The initial investment in packet switched networking was colleges who realized how usefull it was. Universitys have a lot of money to throw at possiable technologys. I think the interenet survived on its merits. The interent was a thriving community way before commercial intervention. I remember my middle school days when there weren't any local ISPs and I had to use the local University which provided K-12 net access. Hell... It was free when the whole country didn't want to get on! Corparations sustain the net as it is (SPAM and all) because they can make money. Durring the interents critical period it had little to do with anything but research. I remember the web without ads.
telemedicine, remote surgery, virtual reality,
distributed computing, super computing, IPv6, IP multicast development, QoS, remote education (realtime high quality video and audio), teleconferencing, transport protocol research, biological reseach (remote control of electron microscopes), distributed collaboration, network hardware research (why do you think cisco, nortel/bay, 3com is so deeply involved?), reseach on new fibre optical communications.
Sounds like your dorm gets T3 bandwidth. 400k/sec is about 3.2 Mbps, a tad less than I2 ;-)
the portuguese average daytime student user gets something between 5K to a few hundred bytes.
feel lucky, already?
Here's a question (or comment). Its guraranteed that the only reason why there is a branch steming up the entire western us seaboard up to seattle and not a small branch crossing over southern ontario that would include (Universities of Waterloo & Toronto, Nortel WHQ, etc) is that microsoft probably brided tons of officials for it, something Canada doesn't have the money for. COme on, Internet2 goes to Albany NW. Especially with Nortel doing the hardware thing it would be more effective to go there and include those two universities that have done tons to develop open standards. But no, they include Microsoft who's only interest is to develop closed standards of their own for Internet2. Who wants to bet that Microsoft will be announcing an MSN2 soon based on new patented technology (that just happens to be included in Internet2).
we have beer ..
jas0n
Couldn't they think of a better name for this?
So the freaks from the universities have a new toy..BFD. Those of us that actually work for a living and have to pay taxes may never get to utilize this great stuff WE paid for, and that truly is a shame. C'est la vie.
Maybe Canada's not connected because CSIS is scared of it.
CSIS: "We listen to your telephone because we can't think of anything better to do"
anything but internet2... names with numbers after them painfully remind me of AOL, where by if the name you want is taken, just tack a number after it.
They could have thought of a name like so many irc networks have, (insert catchy phrase)Net, like SlashNet, EfNet, and so forth.
i can't wait to download warez, mpg and porn of it c'est comme fait.
I don't how but about six months ago I did a ftp between two Uni's in the same city and got a transfer rate of 1700k/sec. It was about 1am. Now if like somebody else said, 400k/sec is about 3.2Mbps then 1700k/sec is about 13Mbps, but I am only connected to a 10Mb LAN so how did I get a transfer rate like that?
here ya go:
http://www.canet-inst.ca/
Duh, no word is they're going to NetBEUI all nodes on a single segment.
Which school do I have to attend so that I can sit in my dorm room with my machine connected to I2?
Or, whose strings can I pull at which university so that I could have that much bandwidth to me cluster (a nice Beowulf cluster would be great in using that bandwidth).
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
yeah you have a point.....oh well. Labs? What are those scary places? :)
http://www.canet.net/
We have had CA*Net2 a ATM research network for the longest time, they are deploying CA*Net3 a DWDM IP on Fiber network right now. CA*Net2 is already connected to Internet2
Hey, didn't you read the article? This thing is
powered by Nortel's SONET technology. Nortel, the
Canadian company.
I'm sick of losers like you that think that if a
person isn't an american than that person isn't
worth dirt.
Can someone please reasure me that there are at
least some americans that aren't on such a
power trip?
and that includes my one CSC class and access to Crays. NCSU and NCSC. so far, the co-eds have been free too.
o /csc791w_info/www/index.html
http://www.ncsc.org/machines/
http://www.ncsc.org
http://www.ncsu.edu/http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/inf
yeah, i am loving life.
...since I define Microsoft proprietary net-traffic to be "commercial use" of a network and therefore prohibited from Internet2. All non-MS based machines should be invited to join. Now let's see, my Linux box is on this end of the coax so where do I plug the other end into...
Just think how fast these 3l33t university people are going to be able to exchange porn and warez! Lucky bastards!
So, when are they going to open the floodgates for spammers, sex peddlars and AOLers?
I first got online in the fall of 1991. Where I live (Holland) connections with sites in the US often had transfer rates less than 1K/sec. At that time we didn't have http, nor commercialism, nor spammers. In holland bandwidth has immensely increased. For me, the net is faster now than ever before, even with all the commercial sites.
:)) country, and got 500K/sec.
Recently I downloaded a new version of netscape from a mirror site on the other side of this (rather small
What the hell are you talking about? His point was that Internet2 is a research network. It's not a commodity network. The only people with access to it are those who can demonstrate a need for the high-bandwidth and low-latency environment it provides. It is mainly public money that is building it. Get a clue.
The Seattle I2 connection is strictly for the University of Washington. The UW will eventually act as a pop for other schools in the pacific northwest.
If you go back to the days of NSFnet, you will see that the UW was the only connection in the pacific northwest region. It has quite a networking presence.
The reason Canada isn't on I2 is simple. I2 is US government funded. Canada isn't paying for it (that I am aware of), so they aren't on it.
Internet2 is for research only, to develop new technologys for the future mankind. Its not a
"toy" that many of you think, i dont even think it will be directly connected at the old internet at all.
so what does this mean for normal people? anything?
since the internet2 only goes between a couple of universities, what use will it be? interscholastic Quake tournaments, what else?
and how will the line between the internet and the internet2 be established? will you be able to send things to the internet from the internet2? even if not, how will they keep some person from starting up a router that connects one to the other? once the internet and the internet2 are connected to each other, won't internet2 just basically become a type of high-bandwidth internet connection, not a separate network?
i dont quite get the point of all this.
Isn't that enough?
Umm.. if you had 2.4GB of bandwidth going to your house, you're telling me you would waste it on *ONE* SINGLE Pentium II?
Get real. If I had a 2.4gbit uplink, I'd have my entire network online.
I am soo Happy my University (UMASS Amherst) is one of the schools involved in I2....Now if I could just get them to wire it to my dorm room.....
--Never Understimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups.
Yes you are wrong very very wrong because that is M/bits per second not M/Bytes per second and the PII bus can handle 133 + M/bites per second so you are quite safe there turbo.
After all, we already gave them a free ride on the ISS, isn't that enough.
"Sure, we'll take a module you build and haul it up to a space station that we built with a shuttle that cost us billions to develope. Then we'll hook it up to the systems we paid for to power it. And lastly we'll give you all the technology we paid billions for just so that you can give us this honor. Even better, we won't ask you to contribute anything that might help defrey our costs just because you are using the tech too."
Great Idea. I'm all for the ISS, but I believe that if they are going to use the tech people here paid for, then they should at least pick up their share of the tab. We all know that without that tech, and plenty of tech support from NASA the ISS would never happen. In the private sector they charge licensing fees for tech, and ask you to pay the salaries of any engineers you need for tech support. Shouldn't we do the same?
Send comments here: Iwadasn@aol.com
Most universities that are worth talking about already have at least 10 megabit networks in the dorms and even faster connections to outside world. Just move to the dorms ..
About a year ago, I saw some business person on TV talking about "Internet2".
Basically what he was talking about was Internet2 was going to be a system that "they" have much more control over than the current Internet, meaning less freedom for us.
The Internet2 that he described is not a system I would want to use. Is this the same thing?
Nothing...but it is not exactly easy to do.
Do you have fiber optic vampire tamping equipment? Also, it is supposedly easy to detect a loss of (optical) signal when a fiber optic cable is vampire tapped.
In addition, you have to know where the cable is. I would guess that they are keeping the locations a secret.
I am glad they are researching QoS...what a huge benefit for the end user!
nathan
vane0026@tc.umn.edu
*cough* 30KB/s cross-american? Heck when my cable was good (10mbit as opposed to 640kbit as it is now) I had no problem reaching 100-150KB/s from all over the US. And I'm in Europe...
--
Frode
Just think how fast these 3l33t university people are going to be able to exchange porn and warez! Lucky bastards!
I can almost hear the crowds of I2 slap happy nerds going at it now.
I am saddened by the lack of any locations in Canada. Surely we have something to contribute.
2.4gbps is the speed of the I2 backbone. Most institutions would be at (or around) OC12 speeds which is around 655mbps.
Remember that I2 (for now) is only for educational and research institutions. There are a few commercial entities on it, but it will be a while before they let other commercial entities on it (if at all).
This just made my top ten list of realy cool things.
For the normal person I2 will not do much, for a while. It is a place to introduce new technology.
The reason that Universities will be connected should be obvious. Universities have the people, and the knowledge to get this done.
There will be know connection between the current Internet and I2. You will not be able to dial into the I2, you will not be a part of the I2 unless you get a OC12 connection to your house.
I was on the internet, via the local university,
in 1990,91,92,etc. I also used the BITNET for most of the 1980s (85+).
I dont feel that the internet we use today is any "better" than what we had back then.
We didnt have web browser, but in the end, all browsers are doing is making information deliver more "pretty"...perhaps a little more automated.
There's little you can do w/ a web browser that you cant do w/ FTP, gopher and email/listservers.
As for the content -- there's little question that the signal to noise ratio back then was a Himalayan mountain range higher than it is now.
We had BITNET mailing lists, Arpanet discussion groups, MUDs, FTP sites loaded free software (both legitimate OSS stuff, and no doubt warez too). Search engines? We had archie, and we liked it!
There was plenty to do and enjoy back then.
So far, the net of the late '90s just adds a lot of chrome, a lot of porn, lots of commercialism, and way too much noise.
People who work for Universities doing research or whatnot do in fact get paid for it. Hence, they also work for a living. And they do pay taxes too.
Sure it may piss you off that you can't use I2 because you made the wrong career decision, but most of everything that's cool got its start in a University or research environment. Without them, we would not even have this forum to flame each other.
ya, and at $20,000U.S./mo we'd only have to paylike $15 Billion Cdn per month!! (grin)
1) "going live for testing"? Going live is the OPPOSITE of testing.
2) From now on, can we take it as given that CmdrTaco wants any cool new technologies? Reading "I know what I want for xmas" or "gimme gimme gimme" is getting nearly as old as those jarring "*grin*'s" all over the place.
3) We could probably speed the current Internet up to I2 standards by getting all broken TCP/IP stacks off of it (are you listening MS?)
Maybe internet2 is just a bad name to use for this network. It seems to give everyone the wrong idea of the whole thing. It sounds like a great idea, and a valuable tool for research and the sharing of ideas, but saying the words internet two is like promising a sequal that will never happen. A fragmentation of that magnitude could never happen (and isn't apparently the idea of it either) but it is very implied.
Anyways, the internet is always evolving, this bandwidth will reach us all eventually.
Flame away if you desire, respond intelligently if you can. If not, cool just my thoughts.
I've been saying for years that academics and research need to start over and make a new network . Split the damn internet! Give the AOL osers their porn and spam traffic they want so badly and allow all the commercial usage on there. And for the rest of us, who actually need the internet for research and to get work done (remember? that's what it was developed for initially), have our own academic network. Thank you, I don't need the commercial part of the internet.
Unfortunately this is not whats going to happen with Internet2 in the end. The whole thing only exists because of commercial interests.
- illuminaut, arbiter elegantiarum.
Posted by Assmodeus:
dammnit!! i cant even get cable access where i live. but while 2.4 gps would be nice, correct me if im wrong, it would be worthless due to the speed of my p2's internal bus...
Posted by Sam Robertson:
I kind of agree, but please learn to spell...
Most of the time I don't need more then 28k8.
It's the quality that counts - not the quantity.
Francis Siefken
Does any know if it runs ipv6?
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Downloading at 400k/sec is a religious experience. If only people besides universities could hook up.
I actually transferred out of there (I hope none of the sysadmins read this ), but they forgot to cancel my account. I am now at a considerably smaller, private school ;)
oh please oh please, God let me somehow be involved in that thing. Although my school is only 2000 people, I just ask for one chance! :)
...I just want one chance to prove money cant buy me happiness
The internet 2 is access restricted to scientific and academic usage only. You have to be on an approved research project or something to get on it. Hopefully this will keep the AOL lusers (which I use as a term for a class of users, not people from AOL specifically) off and the signal to noise ratio fairly high, but it does mean that just because you have the 20,000/month to throw at UUNet for a high speed connection, that won't get you on inet2.
2) You cant tap a fiber you doofus. If you tap the fiber, you disrupt the signal, and someone goes to fix it and breaks your leg with a fiber splicer.
Not 100% true. I've heard from several sources now (fibre installers, phone crews, etc.) that you can "tap" fibre by bending it sufficiently enough to cause some of the light to exit the fibre since your bend is "excessive" and the TIR which the fibre relies on is no longer total. Now mind you this is only for eavesdropping but it is being "tapped."
I'm at purdue right now... I2 just got installed... It rocks..
.o well
Less than 10ms pings ANYWHERE on it.. =)
Now the NIC card in this computer is the bottleneck..
ChiefArcher
If this thing is running IPV6, I'd be willing to bet that Linux is playing a front seat role in all of this.
--
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
http://www.nts.umn.edu/homer/internet2/
For all of you who are interested.
My understanding is that this is going to take longer to get to the commercial sector than the article seemed to indicate. I know several people working directly on Internet2, and it seems the research applications alone are going to keep it busy for several years. To get involved, one just has to work for the university in the IT or SI divisions...
Grass Roots Info Ronin
I think Canada should donate the silicon from Pamela Anderson Lee's enormous overstuffed hooters to the project.
...for being at Yale. :) I *know* we're on Internet2.
JB
Did anyone else catch the references to "differentiated service" levels mentioned in the article? What this sounds like is that big corporations (or universities) with the Big Bucks(tm) get the best service (good support, high bandwidth, high reliability), and private ISPs or small companies would be left with the unreliable or low-bandwidth connections.
0 1 - just my two bits
There has been a *working* connection between GaTech and UNC for some time. Don't no much about it since I am not part of the Systems group, but it is definetly there.
Check out: www.internet2.org
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
"Computers are nothing but a perfect illusion of order" -- Iggy Pop
Ya - Same goes for the military freaks and their Billion Dollar B-2 Bombers. Those of us that actually work for a living and have to pay taxes may never get to fly around in this great plane WE paid for, and that truly is a shame.
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Hopefully Internet2 stays in Universities and non-profit organizations, unlike it's bloated, over-commercialized predicessor.
I remember when you could get 400K/sec on a file download from somewhere on the other side of the US. Now thanks to the convenience of U.S. commercial intere$ts clogging everything up with their bloated WWW sites, you can barely reach 30K/sec.
WRONG. Internet2 is a privately funded initiative; no tax dollars involved. Perhaps if you'd bothered to go to their web site at www.internet2.edu you would have realized that. But I guess expecting people to verify facts before spreading FUD would be a bit much.
Not quite; see RFCs 2474 and 2475.
two words: web tv.
Argh...
Glad you pointed it out. :-)
1) It's OC-48, pay attention. OC-3c = 155Mbit. OC-12 = 648Mbit. OC-48 - 2.4Gbit. OC-96 - 10Gbit.
Actually, OC-192 is 10Gbit/s.
We (my company, my development department) can even top that: OC-192/STM-64 over WDM, which will be 16x (or 32x) 10GBit/s on one fiber. You don't want it at home, your HD'd be full in the wink of an eye.
Glad you pointed it out.
1) It's OC-48, pay attention. OC-3c = 155Mbit. OC-12 = 648Mbit. OC-48 - 2.4Gbit. OC-96 - 10Gbit.
Actually, OC-192 is 10Gbit/s.
We (my company, my development department) can even top that: OC-192/STM-64 over (PDF), which will be 16x (or 32x) 10GBit/s on one fiber. You don't want it at home, your HD'd be full in the wink of an eye.
> Hopefully Internet2 stays in Universities and non-profit organizations, unlike it's bloated, over-commercialized predicessor.
Hopefully not!
>I remember when you could get 400K/sec on a file download from somewhere on the other side of the US. Now thanks to the convenience of U.S. commercial intere$ts clogging everything up with their bloated WWW sites, you can barely reach 30K/sec.
So you'd prefer to be on your own private Internet, with super high bandwidth to almost nothing? Better to have 30K/sec to what you're looking for, than no access to the sites you want at all. Not to mention that fact that those "bloated WWW sites" take up NO bandwidth unless someone is actually using (i.e. presumably benefiting) from them.
Oh, and another thing--if the Internet2's Quality of Service features work as advertised, then it can be as congested as it wants, but if you're willing to pay a premium for your packets, you'll still get good performance. If not, then you got what you paid for.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
The article doesn't name the 50-150? universities to be connected. Does anyone have a link to a list?
--
This sort of thing has cropped up before. And it has always been due to human error.
HAL9000
only 400K/s? Just 10 minutes ago I got 500K/s downloading some RPMs from sunsite. The only times I have slow downloads is from anything having to do with redhat.com
Looks like this is just the first step. The article gave the impression that Northern Telecom will be connected in Ontario.
Here's some background information in response to a few the posted questions: Internet2 is basically a research and development consortium of over 140 universities, about 50 companies and over 2 dozen affiliated organizations. Abilene is a national backbone network that members of Internet2 can use to develop advanced applications and network capabilities like QoS and multicast. As several folks have noted, the idea is not to replace the current Internet, but to develop technology that can migrate there. For the latest information on Internet2 and links to the Abilene Website see: www.internet2.edu . (truth in advertising: posted by Greg Wood, Internet2)
That's like asking what does the Hubble Space Telescope or the Mars Rover mean to normal people. It's just another research tool, and if you value institutional research, you would be happy, and if you think research is a waste of money, you would be upset. It's up in the air how Internet2 and Internet will get connected, but even for the 50 charter Universities, there will be 2 separate networks, for now; I'm sure students without important reserach needs won't have Internet2, while labs and supercomputers and other important buildings will have direct access to Internet2.
It is a separate network, physically, though I would guess it shouldn't be hard to connect the Internet network with the Internet2...
There are plenty good reasons to be excited.
Twinkie
Hey, research institutions are the reasons average people have titanium golf clubs, silicon transistors, pocket radios, cd-players, flat panel displays, pentium 2s, soda cans, plastic milk cartons...
See anything here? Sure, you may just be an anonymous troll, but research institutions, while spending millions on such crap as quantum mechanics, string theory, holographic imaging, particle accelerators, etc, do end up with usable, cool, noteworthythings... Heck, without the originial arpanet and universities needing a method of communication, where do you think the internet would have started in the first place?
BTW, quantum mechanics -> quantum computing, we hope, holographic imagining -> optical processing and storage, particle accelerators -> even more compact storage mediums than ultra dense hard drives... etc. And the kicker is we don't know how useful a research is until after the fact...
Twinkie
Anybody know what bandwith reservation protocol they are using? Do they support IPNG?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Damn, its on an OC-64 Sonet network. Now, if that line runs past your house, what prevents you from tapping into the fiber and grabbing some bandwidth?
PDG--"I don't like the Prozac, the Prozac likes me"
"Where is my mind?"
You've just proven to me that there are such thing as stupid answers from stupid people. Damn, ya ask a question and fucking genious fiber engineer jumps down your throat for now knowing the specs of a fiber connection.
PDG--"I don't like the Prozac, the Prozac likes me"
"Where is my mind?"
I think that there's gonna be some interesting days in the future... with the phone companies whining about cost...
What do the specs for this thing look like? Are they open? One of the big conspiracy theories going around is that when Y2K hits, the government will deprecate the current infrastructure and move everybody to a new one, which is protected by sundry patents and IP laws. There they can censor and snoop all they like.
If Internet2 is open-spec like its prequel was, however, I don't see that happening.