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Bell Atlantic/Mac/ADSL Crusade Fails
Breakdown writes "About a month ago Slashdot reported on Steve Godun attempting to get Bell South to provide ADSL service to any type of Macintosh. At the time Bell Atlantic released a statement saying that by mid-February they hoped to have some sort of Macintosh ADSL solution. The mid-Feb. date has come and gone and Godun has ended his crusade. You can read his 5th and final installment of articles relating to his Mission. "
I called them yesterday and ordered DSL for my apartment, which I expect to run with a netwinder doing IP masqing. I told them I have a "unix" machine and they seemed OK with that. In the future perhaps we should stick to lower-level definitions and only identify ourselves as "ethernet" users. After all you don't tell the phone co. what brand of phone you use.
In terms of the seven-layer OSI/burrito model, the telco definitely belongs at the lower levels, if you know what I mean.
>
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth...
OpenTransport is the ONLY way to get DHCP on a Macintosh out-of-the-box. And OpenTransport IS the tool to give you the MAC address (how much more unified and reliable do you need to be?). Command-U to User Mode, select Advanced, and click on the "info" button...so simple even YOU might be able to do it. Next question, please.
I used to be a Mac user. I was always sold the line of BS that you had to use "Apple approved" RAM and "Apple approved" HDs, etc... However, I was adventurous. (I also have an EE background!) I knew they were lying. I tried PC RAM because it was cheaper. You know what? It worked. And it's STILL working. So... ADSL will work for the Mac. All you have to do is LIE to them about what computer you have and get a little more INTO your computer. As long as you get a fixed IP address and you are sunning MacOS8, there shouldn't be ANY problem getting an ADSL hookup no matter what the phone company says. I don't see what he's whining about.
The cReePer
As a Linux user on a MediaOne cable modem, I can't completely sympathize. M1 has the policy of "we can handle it, but it's not officially supported". If I call them up tomorrow and give them a MAC from a Sparc, they'd happily take it and away-hey-hey I go. Of course, I know that if I call with a problem, they won't be able to help unless I prove the problem is on their side.
It's sad to see BA treating their customers like this.
Actually, Bellsouth *does* support Macintosh.. I think you mean BellAtlantic there.
The biggest problem we've had is that the Mac doesn't implement CIDR properly (so it chokes if it get's handed an address ending in 255 or 0 via DHCP).
Dump the IRS - http://www.fairtax.org
OK, in summary:
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
It's more like driving your Yugo into the local gas station and
being told that they only pump gas into GM cars, that they
won't let you show them how to fill your car, and that you're
not allowed to pump it yourself.
As long as you get a fixed IP address and you are sunning MacOS8, there shouldn't be ANY problem getting an ADSL hookup no matter what the phone company says. I don't see what he's whining about.
Steve Godun is "whining" about that fact that BellAtlantic will "certify" that their ADSL will work for an iMac, but not any non-iMac Mac, and can provide no technical reasons why that should be the case.
Here's a quote from the part 4 of the series:
I asked him: If an iMac owner called BA for an ADSL line, would BA support him?
YES, was the answer.
I then asked: If the installation guy came to the iMac owner's house and found that the little sticker on the side of the iMac (with the MAC address on it) had been removed, would that customer still be supported?
YES, was the answer.
Next: If that's the case and the sticker were removed, then how would BA's installation guy get the hardware address for that iMac?
I was told that he would have to use "some kind of software" to get the hardware address.
Finally: Okay, so if an installation technician comes to an iMac owner's house and has to use a software package to get the hardware address, how is that any different from the same scenario but substituting a regular Mac for the iMac, for which that same software would yield the same result?
The answer: Only the iMac has been tested so that's the only computer BA can support.
And another one:
Side Note: With this in mind I decided to perform an experiment a few hours later, just to see how accurate Kevin's statements were. I called Bell Atlantic in the guise of a neophyte Windows user. I gave a false name and other information, but gave them a phone number which I knew was within their ADSL service area.
When I was asked what kind of computer, I told them "some kind of Windows thing". I was asked who manufactured the computer, and I told them that "a friend of mine put it together from some parts he had left over from when he upgraded".
I was then asked if it was running Windows 98 or Windows 3.1 and I played dumb. "Is there a button in the corner that says START?" I was asked. "Yeah, that's right," I replied. "Okay, that's probably Windows 95." I was then told that installation would be no problem, when would I like to have the guy come in, etc.
So they can apparently "certify" any scratchbuilt PC running Windows9x, but they can't "certify" a non-iMac Power Mac. Maybe Linux users don't find dragging out the ol' dual-boot system to get their ADSL, but you shouldn't have to. That is the point of the whole ordeal Godun had gone through.
Godun even points out that he's received e-mail on this topic from people who are getting ADSL for their non-iMac Macs -- from BellAtlantic, even! -- and suggests that these people, since they're technologically savvy enough to get it done themselves, be used as a quick-and-dirty beta-testing program. BA replied that they'd look into it; maybe that signals some sort of progress...
Jay (=
...the big companies are going to have to learn that Win-95 only and Intel only are not acceptable anymore.
Then again, they've already created win-ADSL modems...shiver...
Everyone loves to call US West, US Worst.. Well for the first time ever they came through and gave me DSL w/o a problem. I was one of the first people in the Mpls/St. Paul area to get DSL. On the phone they asked me "Do you have a PC or a Mac?" I answered "Mac". Does it have an ethernet or do you need an ethernet card? (At the time provided at no charge.) I answered it has ethernet. They said thank you, and three weeks later I had DSL happily running. 10 minutes later I plugged in my PC Linux box, and IP Masqed my internal network. Everything worked, no hastle... (Other then them being 4 hours late for the "installation"...)
Since that time, I have gotten static IPs, hubs, switched, etc.. nothing has ever been a problem, and they have always been there when I needed technical support. They even modified their DNS (reverse name) servers manually when the automated proceedure couldn't do what I needed.
Congratulations for US Worst.
--Mark
you know, apple could put a big ad in national papers asking why bell atlantic is stopping apple consumers from using their service. or something. why doesn't *apple* do something.
the knock on free s/w is that it isn't supported. apple's a big company, where's their support?
they could do something - are they? if not, why not? any apple people care to respond?
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Read more carefully. They do support Macintoshes. The issue is that they only support the iMac, offering the lame excuse that they need to read the MAC address from the sticker on the case.
This is lame because the new blue and white G3's also have the MAC address on a sticker on the case, and are running the same software as the iMac. Not supporting these would be as stupid as, say, allowing Dell PC's but not allowing Gateway PC's.
Admittedly, we should expect lameness out of BA, because they are requiring a MAC address in the first place. Competent phone companies would be using equipment that doesn't care what your MAC address is.
I would have took one of my friend wintel machine, put in the eth card I want to use later on my adsl mac.. Call BA, install ADSL, when they step aout the door, put the ethernet card into the mac.. and go with it :-))
ps: if cannot find ethernet card which works with both the mac and a wintel machine, than you can use a wintel machine as a router..
or if your mac's ethernet driver supports it, simply change your mac's eth numbert to that of the wintel's..
Nonesense. We've had to re-IP most of the ADSL cities a couple of times already with additional or larger subnets. *You* call a thousand customers and walk them through static IP address changes. It's a hell of a lot easier to make
changes as needed.
Besides, you're paying less than $60US a month
for T1 download speeds... I wouldn't complain.
I told the powers-that-be that IPMasquerade in it's many forms would be all around (hell, I'd do it myself). That's not the problem. The problem is supporting many, many firewalls on mulitple OS's... nope, not really feasible at this time.
I argued for *nix support. I was overruled. Same grounds, which, knowing a few other things, I can see. But, there are also solutions to that as well. Just not a battle I see worth fighting at this time.
Dump the IRS - http://www.fairtax.org
Why doesn't apple announce that service is limited to people who buy their products? I can see why they'd be pissed as hell about it and maybe lean on BA themselves but a public statement like that would be pretty bad marketting, don't ya think?
There are a lot of people writing in, "why doesn't he just tell them he has a PC and configure it himself." That's not the point. I would gladly wager that Godun knew how to configure the ADSL himesl, or could have figured it out with a little reading and guesswork. The point is that people who do not use a Windows varient should not be shut out. The setup procedure is NOT difficult, no matter what platform you're using. They should have someone who is conversant with config procedure on multiple platforms, or be able to direct their non-Windows users to a someone who can answer questions. Non Windows users should not have to lie to be connected to Bell South. All platforms should be supported for this trivial matter.
Hey, no need to be sorry for being a selfish jerk.
at least with an imac one knows what he gets. buy an intel mainboard with a promise of expandability, and what do you get? lies. like slot1 not accepting p3's.
and here comes slot a.
like constant bus mhz changes( your current board won't support 133 mhz)
like ram changes (rambus anyone?)
fact is, the industry changes so fast these days, expandability is a non-issue.
buy what you need today; buy a new 'puter when the time comes.
ADSL via USWest has been a more mixed experience for me. It took two misplaced orders over three months before they installed it. Then there was a shortage of DHCP addresses which kept people from having access. I got a block of static IP addresses after that. The USWest.net news server is so lame as to be effectively useless.
The tech support people can be helpful. And although Linux is not officially supported, there always seems to be a Linux/Unix guru in the tech support office.
I just finished a 13 hour service outage that neither USWest.net, USWest Line Repair, the ADSL Help Desk, or USWest Hardware Support would admit to being able to fix and that somebody else was working on.
I like the technology, I dislike the company, and I respect the many knowledgable employees that manage to make it work considering the overmarketed mess they've been handed.
Fortunately I live in an area with competing DSL providers and will probably go with COVAD some time in the next few months. http://www.covad.com/
Windows is *not* a standard. TCP/IP, Ethernet, and DHCP are standards. If your computer adheres to the standard, you should be able to get basic service. The computer is just the instrument on the end of the line, and BA shouldn't be allowed to dictate which computer you will use any more than which phone you hook to the end of the line. Further, BA is a public utilities company in a regulated industry, so it shouldn't get to be just their decision.
Yes, I know in principle it's nice to have a company formerly support something. But there's a limit to how long you bang your head against the wall. I have had friends at schools that can't get a simple static IP once they say the word Linux. When I got my ADSL thru US West (a saga in and of it's self) I just lied and said I had Win95, then told them to skip the install, told them I'd do it that save the $150. (Course they still charged me, but again, that's another story.
My boss was recently offered an ADSL trial from Bell Atlantic (in Manhattan), and he asked them whether they would support Linux (fully expecting the answer to be negative). He got a note back about two weeks later saying that yes, they would. Perhaps that is just some personal initiative on the part of a Manhattan office?
You evidently read only that particular e-mail of his saga. If you had read all of the introductory e-mails that he gave for the past few months (since christmas, I believe) then you would have seen this part, which is actually an excerpt from BellAtlantics web page.
Quote--
SYSTEM CONFIGURATION: Personal Computers
To ensure Infospeed DSL can (a) work efficiently on your system and (b) be installed on your computer, we require the following system
specifications to complete your order.
To expedite the process, please complete this document prior to placing your order. You may return the information via email or a fax to your sales
representative or you may provide the information when you call to place your order. If we determine that your system does not meet the required
minimum specifications, we will notify you of which item(s) or threshold(s) was found to be insufficient.
Minimum system requirements include that you have an IBM compatible PC with an Intel Pentium or an AMD K5 or K6, and Microsoft Windows 95,
Windows 98 or NT4.0 (NT service pack 3 or above). Additionally, we require 32MB RAM; 25 MB hard disk space; an original Operating System CD or
OS source files on Hard Disk and operational CD ROM drive to insert your Operating System software.
Bell Atlantic also supports the Apple Macintosh iMAC machine.
If you already have an Ethernet card in your machine, please note that Bell Atlantic only supports 3Com-branded Ethernet cards. Other brands may
be used; however your card may need to be replaced if DSL service problems occur. If you do not currently have an Ethernet card, Bell Atlantic sells
them, starting at $49.95.
IF ANY OF THE INFORMATION PROVIDED HEREIN IS INCORRECT AND RESULTS IN BELL ATLANTIC'S INABILITY TO COMPLETE HOME INSTALLATION,
THE TECHNICIAN WILL ADVISE YOU OF THE REASON FOR THE NON-COMPLETION AND YOU WILL BE CHARGED FOR THE TECHNICIAN'S VISIT.
End Quote--
The simple fact is that Joe average cannot sign up for BA's ADSL if they have a Mac and do not know how to configure their boxes and _do_ need support or at least someone to help them out. Judging from your qualifications (gleaned ever so gracefully from your boxen used as rank and identifcation), I can see that ease of use, support, and the consumer mean nothing to you. Please feel free to respond, but try a little thinking before you post next time.
Suffice it to say, I'd like to keep my job, so I'm posting anonymously.
Contact info for everyone he mentioned in the article
John Grady: 703-974-6886
Kevin Bousman: 703-453-6757
Peter Castleon: 212-395-3629
Ivan Seindenberg: 212-395-1060 (CEO and Chairman, Bell Atlantic).
Email Addresses.
john.grady@bellatlantic.com
kevin.w.bousman@bellatlantic.com
peter.castleton@bellatlantic.com
ivan.seindenberg@bellatlantic.com
ivan.g.seindenberg@bellatlantic.com (This account is never checked, and is only used for mass-emails in the company)
Enjoy the chaos!
A good DSL provider should not care what OS you are running, and should not need to know your MAC address, and should not need to be notified if you change ethernet cards, and should not leak traffic from other customers onto your LAN, and should not leak your local traffic onto other people's LANs.
This kind of treatment is, sad to say, common. Mac users have bitched about it for years, but in general it affects anyone who doesn't run the current market leader.
They need to understand - most Mac/Linux/BeOS/whatever users know full well that they're on their own with these kinds of things. Even 'trained' Mac support staff are often just Windows guys with a little cross training. If we're calling for a hookup, they could at least just give us the standard 'you are officially unsupported - good luck' and turn it on.
But no, as always, we're second class citizens. Yay.
They're getting ready to roll out ADSL here. I hope they're as good to my Mac/LinuxPPC/BeOS partitions as they are to the Windows status quo.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
- Jeff
It was exactly that simple for me to get ADSL for my Mac here in Ames, Iowa. Based on my experience, I would say all he literally needs is for them to send him the Cisco DSL modem and low-pass filters for his phone jacks. He'd be running in 5 minutes. They honestly _don't_ need to know what kind of box the end user has if your OS supports TCP/IP. Period. We've moved the modem from the Mac to a different box running Linux here in our office (that had the same phone number), and it worked fine.
I don't think they're discriminating against the Mac out of evil intentions; they're just so stupid that they couldn't find their butts with both hands and a coon dog.
Why do they need a MAC address anyways? Do they have a static arp cache on the other side or something? what the fuck is up with that?
Bell Titanic strikes again.
Hmmm....
Too bad they aren't refusing to hook up ADSL service to Linux users (I'll bet BA is). Then we'd hear even more noise.
(and before anybody starts irrational rants about it, I'd be complaining too if I was in BA land as I run Linux/PPC on a PREP box)
we did. It's just inefficient use of a /22 subnet.
w98 has exhibited this as well, but not always (haven't figured out why yet). Linux, of course, works fine. Actually, so does NT... their dev team actually read the RFCs.....
Dump the IRS - http://www.fairtax.org
I hate to sound like some MediaOne employee pulling the M1 line (I'm not), but aside from getting put on hold with them, the service has been excellent. A separate line had to be run around my house to get the cable modem service activated, and the installation was very professional, to putting in a coax jack on the wall and marking that segment of cable as "data only - do not filter". All that for $50 for install (plus $50 for the ethernet card).
When I got the cable service installed (about two weeks earlier), I was told that the house was already set up for cable and I could hook it in immediately. When that didn't work (and got put on hold for an hour), they sent a service person out to check the line (it was disconnected at the pole). That visit was free of charge. The total time from me ordering the service to getting cable TV was about 3 days.
In contrast, when I signed up with Time Warner, I was told the earliest install was 2 weeks from that day (on a saturday when I'd be out of town). After finally scheduling an install for the week, I asked them to call me before the person would show up so I could be hone. I got a call a little later merely asking "how long will it take you to get home?". Thinking they were asking to plan ahead, I told 'em 20 minutes. Turns out they were sending the cable guy there to install. When I *finally* got the install, the guy walked in the door, hooked in the cable box, made me sign all the papers, and left.
I'll do the say. We'll hook our neighbors up, and
their neigbors, and meet in the middle. Then drop your phone line and do voice over IP.
Wow, you are the blessed one! In West LA we've had weekly outages lasting hours on end. I was on (speaker phone) hold for over three hours. Their routing always goes down. Right now I'm holding my breath with two weeks of uptime.
:).
Routes are also a big problem for M1's crack team of 14 yr old network people. 26% of all packets get dropped when pinging most locations on the internet. I don't have to tell you what this does for an ssh session.
I guess if I had phone service from them I'd be on hold less iften
-- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri
first off there may be a smaller percentage of mac users but a larger percentage of them are online (and thus customers) think of all the wintell machines that are sitting at business that are NEVER going to be customers for this product... think of all the wintel users that are not online...
sure, its not even, but its not as bad as you make it out to be...
as far as software support is concerned, they already support the iMac so they have to support all 8.* systems... well, make that a requirement that will cut out all the 68030's like the LC few people would complain. hell you could restrict more than that (pci powermacs would be a good example) and few people would complain. you certainly wouldnt have this PR nightmare on your hands.
As for hardware support... yea, like there arent too many kinds of hardware on the wintel side. humm maby they should say that they will only support brand name machines. that would save them lots of money but not reduce their target market by that much (since most consumers buy brand name)
please, consider these things before you post... there are plenty of companies offering highspeed access to the mac (mediaone for instance) and making the business model work. Bell Atlantic could do the same.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
Uhhhhh, a friend of mine just got ADSL a few weeks ago. I was there while the BellSouth guy was installing everything. Not knowing much about the details I asked whether or not the IP address would be static or dynamic. The BS guy said that they only give static IPs to Macintosh users. Okay, whatever. Point is, well...you get my point.
Aaagh. Please.. GTE is a monolith.. I've had occasion to work for them. Ick. They have more politics than you can possibly imagine.. and they will not commercially deploy Linux because of their Y2K policies.. even though it has been proven superior time and time again to their extant architecture.
I realize that cachedot is running from there, and they have good bandwidth, but I would never willingly be a GTE Internetworking customer.
---
"Eternal vigilance is the price of Freedom."
They are refusing more than just support.
They are also refusing to connect the customer at all unless they have the approved configuration. That is very unfair. Not every customer is a technophobe-cant-program-your-VCR moron who needs hand-holding to install this. They are denying access to those who could hook it up themselves. That's dumb. It's like selling a car with the hood nailed shut.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
But I ordered ADSL service from them. Lo and behold, all their manuals had both Mac and PC sections.....
>Why would BA want to support Macintoshes?
They already support the iMac... other than the ugly case, there isn't any differance setting up an iMac or any other mac... What they do is write down the mac address, set up the machine to use dhcp, and tell there dhcp server to respond to the mac address... no very dificult...
So the cost of support argument makes no sense... if they really don't want to support macs, they could simply install the line, and not offer any support to users of "unsupported" os's... there are many other phone companies that do that...
Here's another clue...don't even bother using aggroup's software, if you're running OpenTransport, click on the "info" button in the advanced user dialog, and voila! There's your MAC address...
My advice is this: Mac users, band togather, support your own. i.e. those who know how, share, or automate. (I know their are Mac coders out there, I used to be one!) Lie to BA, (well tiny fibs mabey) and once you have a good base of users, you have proof that BA is a bunch of idiots. End of story. The main problem is I suspect BA is like US West in the sence that no US West = no ADSL. I'd LOVE to drop US West like a bad habit. Pride or highspeed internet access... hmm. Tough call.
I was using a Mac with ADSL from Bell Atlantic over a year ago. It worked just fine; setup was trivial. They might not *support* Macs, but it's still possible to just plug the box into the wall and have it work; you just have to be prepared to not have someone to walk you through the right control panels.
I run a small 1-way (2-way soon i promise) wireless cable modem network for a 'relatively' small communictions company... Never have i seen such bad service... we are offering dsl in more and more of our markets and ya know what? We don't turn anyone down.. someone wanst cable on a mac or adsl bridged between their ether and token nets... we work our asses of to provide.... Bandwidth isn't just for those who buy the mass produced brainless sheep computers...... Wize up BA you will NEVER have my business....
And I thought Sprint was bad... man...
So why is it that the iMac is not expandable? The HD drive is in a standard 3.5" bay and the CD-ROM drive is in an industry standard form factor (for portables). The G3 is in a ZIF socket and the RAM has been qualified up to 128 Mbytes. The actual limit of RAM in the machine is much higher - it just so happens that larger SO-DIMM's were not available to test with at the time the iMac was qualified.
There are lots of people I don't talk Linux to because they've done The Right Thing and researched the damned thing, and come up with the RMZ vs. ASR debate, and spent fully five minutes trying to sort out free vs. libre vs. open, not to mention D-warf vs. KEF, and suddenly the lunch whistle sounds and they're back to real-world concerns and Linux is six months away from having all the apps in the world, like Apple for the last five years, and meanwhile the world is moving on.
IF ONLY computer literate nerds ran the world. (I'd shoot myself, and the lot of you would have a hard time sponging the walls with a C program, but think of the bank you'd make.)
Sorry Guys, devils advocate here, flame away. Note: I like some things about the Mac (RISC processor, etc), but won't spend the money to buy one due to being a college student as well as their still inflated price (better, yes but I can't build an apple from components or upgrade one as cheaply), and Apple's attitude.
Why would BA want to support Macintoshes? What is the max percentage of home users who use Macintoshes? The cost of supporting them becomes prohibitive at low numbers, and I see the number being somewhere below 10%. If your service can target >90% of the installed base of systems, your market capitalization can still be fairly high. Now, while they are supporting the iMac they may start to support the newer G3 systems, but where do you draw the line, all PowerPC systems? The x100's were pretty bad, and are nubus. Do you support the PCI power Macs? What about all those people that still have 68k beasties? The LC's don't take standard Ethernet cards and others, like the Performas, have special communications ports. Older Macs as a whole are rather difficult to support (support in terms of providing Ethernet cards and installation), because of the different ways in which NICs were crammed in there. Once you don't support the older Macs, what is the percentage of G3's and >x200s compared to all PC's 486 and above? Can we say miniscule?
Now, I'll admit that them flatly not supporting Macs is not fair, and it could easily be non-MS Operating Environments, period. But they are a business. Do the right thing and pursue it. Don't just give up.
I disagree completely on the qiestion of profitability. While the MacOS may be in the minority, it certainly isn't scarce. Apple was selling iMacs at the rate of one every 15 seconds during the holiday season. We're talking about millions and millions of machines out there with onboard ethernet and traditionally low support costs.
Not to mention the fact that Mac users - as a category - are creative types using their computers to push large media files around. They are going to order a service like ADSL in disproportionate numbers to Windows users because they have greater need. We aren't talking about surfing here; we're talking about FTPing 20 MB graphics files to clients and service bureaus.
The fact of the matter is that Bell Atlantic's policy is bad business and sooner or later they will change it. Probably about the time that all of those large Northeastern publishing firms and newspapers start demanding it.
This is everyone's fight. Alot of us geeks may be able to sidestep the bull, but if Linux, BE etc. are going to succeed and proliferate, it will only be in a tolerant and fair network and software environment.
"The world is a construct of forceful imagination. Those who don't know walk around in the reailties of those who do"
Apple is doing the same thing with most of their new technologies.
It would be a little hypocritical for Apple to complain about Bell Atlantic given their lack of support for older Macintosh models.
It's understandably frustrating that BA won't offer official tech support for Mac users. However, as several folks have noted here already, if you want to use the service with a Mac (or Linux ) box, you're probably gonna have to DIY. All I did was tell them the MAC address of the NIC in my Mac, and had a technician come over an install the splitter. After that it's just a matter of setting up TCP/IP correctly and you're good to go.
;)
In the D.C. area, the way BA does the install is to have a tech come over one day and do the wiring (unless you want to do this yourself), and then a software person come over the next day to help you get setup. I invited the first guy in with open arms, and then next day, when the Window support guy came, I just told him I had everything up and running fine (which I did) and didn't need any further assistance. He was totally cool with that and left without coming in.
I've talked to BA tech support a couple of times, and most of the guys there are cool; a couple of them told me they're using the service with Linux at home
In sum, it's not terribly difficult to setup DSL on a Mac or Linux or whatever kind of box that has an ethernet card, nor is it hard to use said box as a gateway for a small LAN. It's just takes some tinkering -- and carefully chosen words with the folks on the phone when you order.
One (probably obvious to most Slashdot readers) word of caution: performance will suffer under MacOS, due to it's rather weak implementation of TCP/IP. My Mac dual boots to Linux and I've found DSL performance under Linux to be much more consistant. The Mac ain't bad, though, and at times holds steady for several hours at around 150k/sec. That makes me happy.
Cheers,
J.C.
If you read the prior reports to this final one, you will notice that BellAtlantic explicitly stated that they currently only support the iMac because the MAC address is written on a sticker on the side of the ethernet port. Despite it being two clicks away for a Macuser to gain the MAC address of their builtin ethernet, BellAtlantic also said that they would charge you the fee to send out someone to install the ADSL, only to turn you down if you don't have an iMac. So while it is technically feasible to connect ADSL to the Mac, and any computer that can use ethernet, BellAtlantic will not let you go out on your own in this case. I am sure that Godun would have jumped at the oppurtunity to configure the ADSL with an "unsupported config," knowing that it would work. The problem remains that he was not given the oppurtunity. It is a sad state of affairs, and some are correct when they say that Macusers have received this kind of repsonse every once in a while, but never to the extent and hostility that BellAtlantic used in this case.
I agree with what you are saying, but I also believe that the tide is finally turning on this wintel-only bullshit. At the very least, the software end of things is finally seeing some change....ID software, for example, in their desire to have Quake III ported across many platforms. It is only a matter of time before the hardware people get the message too, I think...but maybe I'm an optomist (along with Jon Katz).
I also believe that karma is going to turn this right back into Bill Gates' face, too..
The problem is, relativly newbie Linux users may
not be aware that sendmail (and other services) could be a problem.
I'm sure they wouldn't be happy to have their service cancelled because they didn't know enough to secure their system.
this guy mentioned that he changed his local phone service to some other carrier. is this possible in parts of the ba region? if so, who would some of the other carriers be? i'd very much be into leaving ba if at all possible (i'm in the northern virginia area). any links or references?
sig
I'm waiting for MediaOne to even get me cable modem access. I live in the non-tech part of town (Lansing, MI) and MediaOne was half a year late just upgrading cable. It'll probably be 2016 when they finally get around to internet access.
Broadband : This is the way (if you live in the right part of town)
OK, so borrow a friend's win9x laptop, let them
set it up, check the net setup on it and duplicate
on the mac, and away you go. That's what we had
to do to get Cox to give us a cable modem, since
we use it with a 486 linux box that does ip masq.
I understand that the principle matters, but don't
go confusing this with it being impossible for you
to use BA with a mac. Stop asking for them to
hold your little hands while you set up, or quit
crying - it's obvious they're not listening to
you anyway.
The logo you have is the G3 logo. The official Apple logo is still the colorful horizontally striped apple. That's the one that should be linked to "Apple."
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Ok, hide the box, write in big letters along the top of your monitor "iMac" and insist that it really is.
Also put a stupid little sticker on the back of your machine with the MAC address. That's all they look for anyways.
Here's some real criticisms of Apple:
1 - Crappy memory protection: One app stepping on the memory of another so that when you get a 'bomb', you have no idea which app is *really* the one responsible. The one reported is not necessarily the culplrit, since it can be screwing up merely because another app stepped on *it*.
2 - Crappy Multitasking: Apps that have to be written to be 'polite' and abdicate CPU time to each other to get it to work. This is in programmer-land and not OS-land that this is done.
3 - Vendor lock-in. What Microsoft is to opensource, Apple is to openhardware.
Don't get me wrong, Apple is fine for desktop stuff, but desktop stuff isn't where the really 'hard' problems in OS design live. Server stuff is the hard part. (So, in other words, saying that Apple is a good desktop machine isn't saying much for the OS.)
And I fully agree that what Bell Atlantic is doing is wrong. I side with Mac users on this one. An enemy of my enemy is my friend. (The enemy in this case being idiotic closed vendor lock-in for no real technical reason.) I just take exception to your claim that *all* the bad stuff said about Apple is FUD. Apple does have some real technical problems with its OS.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Appearantly, you just have never read the fucking story!
Bell told him that if they send a tech out to his house and they see anything other than a Wintel machine or an iMac the tech would immediately leave and he'd still have to pay the full charge for the visit. He could probably configure it himself easily, but they won't allow him access to the Network Interface hardware, and they won't register his MAC address so that he can use the service.
Open your eyes before you open your mouth, and maybe you won't stick your foot into it next time.
If I ran Windows how do I find out my MAC?
I don't have Windows nor do I plan to in the future. I'm just curious as to what kind of skill the tech needs and how difficult it is to find the MAC on a Wintel machine.
Proud to be MS free!!
Actually, about 20% of the home market, and closer to 30% of their target market (younger professionals with heavy Internet usage).
Apple is not doing anything because, in the ned, Apple does not care. All they want to do is sell every Mac user a new box every three years or so. They did not make the iMac non-expandable for kicks.
Why don't we Linux/Mac/AltOS users arrange to block access to all of BellAtlantic's network for a day or so? Sortof like that "make your web page black for free speech" campaign years ago, only more effective...
-CW
Concentric is the way to go.
you can buy blocks of static ips from them too, none of this "single ip" "you better run windows" bullshit.
OK, let's get off the subject EVEN FURTHER!!! Read the posts, make the connections, and stop spewing forth ignorance! The hardware specs for BA's ADSL service REQUIRE a Pentium or K5/K6 processor...who the hell is running Windows 3.1x on a Pentium or Kx? 32MB of RAM? 25MB of free drive space?? Oh, what's that? You MUST have Win95/98/NT4SP3? Well, doesn't that just put the shaft to all those people running 486's and Win 3.1 with a lowly 4MB of RAM? Oh shit, let's just drop the whole thing and go back to sending dirty pictures by Federal Express.
> ...I can't get weepy over a Mac enthusiast's
> pain, since I bailed on Mac 3 years ago because
> Window$ offers the most games while the vast
> remainder of the fun is on Linux.
Would you then have any greater empathy for a
Ms-Win or Linux user?
The point really has nothing to do with the fact
that a non-iMac Mac is involved.
I think I'll not only sign up for their cable modem support, but I'll switch my phone lines from Bell Atlantic to them. (They have offer phone service in my Area, Northeast Massachusetts)
Agreed it is a pain in the ass, but not impossible to cope with. What can you do?
... or that your computer is jealous and won't let anyone but you touch it. Get creative. Fight the power. F**k the man. Don't take no for an answer.
Tell them you have an imac. Tape over the mac logo. Tell them you have a pc. Tell them you sleep with Bill Gates' picture under your pillow and burn incense offerings to the gods of intel and go on holy crusades to wipe out users of non-wintel hard/software, if that's what they want to hear. They don't need to know what os you run. Before they come out to set up your machine, they have to install a DSLAM at the central office closest to you, and wire your house/apartment. Let them do that, and then tell the software installer (i work with telcos, and can guarantee that the software installer won't be the same guy that wires your house) that you did it yourself
Is this for the ADSL circuit only, or for the ISP service as well? If the latter, why not just buy the ADSL circuit from BA, and get your ISP service elsewhere? I read his article, but he never really specified if this was ADSL circuit only, or a package that includes ISP service.
I live in the Bahamas. Down here, people often have to make end runs in order to get sat tv and direc pc. US companies will/can not sell to customers here so many give US addresses and away they go.
This would have had a lot more impact if he had just waited until March 1.
"Mid-February" sounds like a rough estimate to me. If they had meant to say February 15th they would have said that.
It would be pretty embarrassing if they announced their solution tomorrow. Not much chance of that, though.
Bah. Here in New Mexico US West is doing everything it can to avoid a DSL rollout. Odds are they'll have to be dragged into court and beaten over the corporate head with the cluebat of The Law to force any sort of improvement...that's the typical incentive they require.
I've had very reliable ADSL service from US West here in Ames, IA since about October. I have both my Linux box and my Mac using DHCP to get an IP address from US West. (If I ever get a complaint about this from US West I'll of course start using IP masquerading to free up an IP.)
... ask why my service wasn't hooked up.
My only complaints about US West are that it took almost 6 weeks to get me hooked up, and they fucked up my billing. I never did understand why they can only hook up new customers two days out of the month. To their credit they were polite and courteous all the times I called to bitch... *ahem*
So, Borrow a friend's Windows PC, have them install the service, then call them up and tell them that your ethernet card crapped out and you had to replace it, then give them the MAC address of your mac's ethernet card. No? Am I missing something?
Hear hear! When I initially contacted my provider (@home), I was forthright and told them I was running Linux. They did not object and their only caveat was that they would provide support for the connection and not the Linux host (apparently I was the first non-Windows/Mac user in their area). The host was up within minutes of the cable modem installation.
A crosstown friend who has adsl did exactly the same thing without incidence even though his provider was clearly antagonistic towards non-Windows platforms...
A positive attitude and resourcefulness were key to our success...
My advice to alternate OS users whose providers are antagonistic to non-Windows/MacOS is to have the installation done without the client setup.
And for those who cannot handle the TCP/IP setup, find someone who can assist you (many knowledgeable people abound and are willing to help).
~AC
but if you're going to run something other than Gates' crap, you should be prepared for encounters with people who don't understand it. Why not just pull the MAC address off of your ethernet card, order the DSL, and configure the system yourself?
I ordered ISDN from US West, they asked what os I ran, I told them Red Hat, told them I would wire my house and install my network card, and have never had a problem with the service. You want DSL in Bell Atlantic's turf, do it yourself!
Yeah, however BellSouth is just as bad as BellAtlantic... Hell, these are some of the problems I've run in with them:
They wont install if:
a) Running Linux OR FreeBSD (and other Unices)
b) Computers are on a 3 box network for file sharing
c) Ask about getting a static (I got accused of setting up a warez/mp3 site and then got hungup on)
There were various other problems I had with the many representatives I talked to... Bottom line, I'm going to wait for cable, as my cable company doesn't seem mind any of these.. My bottom rule about dealing with ADSL people, don't mention anything, just say you want to buy an Internet.
20 to 30%?! dream on! Not even home use has it that high; plus professionals (except some graphics/audio people) are much more likely to use Windows, not Macs.
10% is a far more likely (and probably generous) number.
Posted by Nick Carraway:
Come on, they're running a business. So what if they're not willing to jump through extra hoops to capture MAYBE 5% of the remaining market (probably less). If they wanted to "support" macintoshes, they'd have to have them in house and pay people to answer questions for them. They're not trying to spoil anyone's fun, they're just providing a service. Will they just let him tell them the MAC address? If so, then just pretend it's a PeeCee and do without the so-called "support" which is usually laughable anyway. The key to succeeding with an alternative OS is being invisible (at first, anyway) -- don't let anyone know what you're trying to do until you've already done it, otherwise they'll discourage or disallow it. And if your Macintosh is really so incompatible (I can't imagine that it is), then it was a poor purchase for networking anyway. It would be like buying a European PAL TV and then complaining that it doesn't receive the NTSC signal here in the States.
People are just tired of having to sneak around to get things done. It is at a minimum annoying. For those not technically inclined, it is a real problem.
x
Look. Out on the Web there's a little program made by the AG Group called GetMyAddress. It's a free download from www.aggroup.com, though you have to give out an unconscionable amount of personal info to get it (perhaps I'll post it somewhere else). Anyway, two clicks and you have your MAC address right there. No problem at all.
Now, for Mac users: Get this address. Cover the logo on the fromt of your Mac with a piece of masking tape and write "iMac" on it. Then write the MAC address on a piece of masking tape and stick it near the Ethernet port of your computer. Because it's now PAINFULLY obvious how clueless the BA (BS?) people are, they'll likely never know the difference. No matter what they tell you, blindly insist that your computer is an iMac. Eventually they'll give in (especially if they refuse service and you threaten to sue).
The trick is to get them out to do the install and set up the machine yourself.
I did this with PacBell ADSL. Once the POTS splitter was installed and the ADSL modem had power, took me 30 seconds (and NO reboots) to determine that PacBell had misconfigured it and it wasn't working. They had to verify on their laptop (Win95 with 2 reboots and ~20 min - granted the installer wasn't that technical). A call into support rectified their configuration problem.
Of course, I did have a W95 box in the corner that I could have set up temporarily had they refused to install on my Powermac. (would've migrated to the PM as soon as the installer left anyway).
Sounds solid enough. I think that's the sort of mentality and gumption it's going to take to get people to realize that this sort of technology is not HW or OS specific.
It could have just as easilly been:
"About a month ago Slashdot reported on Steve Godun attempting to get Bell South to provide ADSL service to any type of Linux. At the time Bell Atlantic released a statement saying that..."
Didn't work very well on an NT machine here. The "Network" item in the Control Panel showed it when I selected "Adapters" (although that may have been from stuff installed along with the Intel driver for the card).
There's a "getmac" command that apparently comes with the Windows NT Resource Kit, which, when run without an argument, listed the MAC address of the card on the machine in question.
You can also run "nbtstat -a " to get, among other things, the MAC address of a single-hosted machine if it supports NetBIOS (if it's multi-hosted, you may only get one of the MAC addresses).
I'm using Vector as my ISP, and the tech I talked to while setting things up on their end was quite helpful -- he knew the Red Hat 5.1 settings off the top of his head. :-)
To USWest's credit, they got my Cisco 675 to my place on time, they turned the service on when they said they would, and they didn't screw up my billing. Good stuff!
--
-Rich (OS/2, Linux, Mac, NT, Solaris, FreeBSD, and OS2200 user in Bloomington MN)
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Paralleling discrimination for someone's choice of religion, race, native language? Oh but sir we can't provide telephone service to you as your native tongue is not supported by our company!
I bet a lawyer and a lawsuit would change the attitude of companies like this.
Anyone with knowledge of discrimination-laws have any comments to add??
Or am I just going too far with this idea :-)
sidster--
WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE GET IT? Bell won't even come to his house and drop off the ADSL adapter unless he has a Wintel PC or an iMac.
They won't let him do it himself either. They're jumping through hoops to NOT help him. They could drop the thing off on his doorstep and say "Here you go, we're not supporting these.", they won't even do that.
Did any of you jack asses actually read the story?
I live about 20 minutes outside of Worcester MA. MediaOne said they have no plans to wire up Worcester or the Wachusett region because of lack of interest. What the hell is this crap. Paxton or Princeton [one of them] has MediaOne already, but there are more cows than people there.
you can get the MAC address from the TCP/IP Control Panel. No need to get the AG Tools Suite...although they are a great set of tools.
Just 'cuz Bell-Atlantic won't support Macintosh ADSL doesn't mean its not possible. Its definitely possible for the network savvy Mac user of course users who just want to "plug and net" have a obstacle.
Obstacles are common to the Mac user so this decree by Bell-Atlantic shouldn't come as a surprise.
Bell Atlantic claims :
"The MAC address is unique information associated with an Ethernet card that Bell Atlantic.net requires to enable it to provide a secure Internet connection".
Actually, I really have to wonder why they use it. While Ethernet cards have an MAC address burned at the factory which is supposed to be unique, it can be overriden in software.
I don't know if you can do this in Linux, but in OS/2, you can actually specify your own MAC address in the settings for the network card - and not via an obscure config file, but via a GUI, no less. So, if Bell Atlantic relies on the MAC address, you could very easily impersonate another user - just use reverse ARP to find out their MAC address; wait for them to disconnect, and set your own NIC to that MAC address. MAC addresses are not at all secure !
-- Julien Pierre http://www.madbrain.com/blog
The funny part of this is that I am still running in Bell Atlantic's ADSL trial here in McLean Virginia. (They are going to roll out the final service hardware to trial participants after everyone else) But the funny thing is, that Macs were fully supported during the trial period. In fact Bell would only give you a static IP address if you were running a Mac. I know a couple of people who told Bell they had Macs, just to get a static IP address. In the trial they didn't require a MAC address, multiple computers could be used freely.
- Jon
Perhaps Apple should get in touch with BellAtlantic and ask them why they do not support Macs. They should probably also find out if there is any way that Macintosh could help them support the platform.
Who knows, they could go one step further and get the Mac logo placed in Bell's ads.
Just imagine the commercials. "Here's a Mac getting connected to ADSL... <click>."
There must be a way to escalate this issue.
(I know that there is no real technical issue here... it sounds like red tape and corporate sloth. One of the higher-ups needs a letter from another higher-up to give the command to offer support for the platform. Until then, either the yes-people will not budge on the issue, or it will take years of complaints to move up the chain of management.)
bwaaaaaahahahahahaahahahahahaa
The Baby Bells have always been Dilbertesque, so I don't know what this guy expected in the first place, Hell, Scott Adams' time in the Walnut Creek, CA office of Pacific Bell has given him the meat of his comic strip. The baby bells have notoriously apathetic customer service and ineffectual, hopelessly beauracratic management.
Also, I'm sorry but I can't get weepy over a Mac enthusiast's pain, since I bailed on Mac 3 years ago because Window$ offers the most games while the vast remainder of the fun is on Linux.
was that it is not possible to reliably get a MAC address, a Media Access Controller address from a Macintosh machine apart from the iMACs.
Why this is important.
All these companies use this for their billing. They frankly dont give a rats ass what you run as long as you let them bill you. This guy (the Mac person) was so blinded by their own Mac advocacy that they were completely unable to comprehend that there is a legitimate technical issue as to why BA was unable to offer him service.
Suppose I have an ethernet card which doesnt provide access to the MAC address. I dont care which platform, but I arrange to write, lets say, all 0's in the packet header for the MAC address. Well, most IP protocols wont care. What will care are the bootp/dhcp type protocols used to assign IP addresses. Once the IP is assigned, your packets are now known to originate from a valid machine, as there is a known IPMAC address mapping in their machines.
This is how they work, and why they reject machines on home nets without a MAC address that you are paying for to connect.
The problem is that this fellow didnt understand or comprehend this. He thought they werent supporting Mac machines. This is not true. The company will allow anything with a protocol stack that allows a bootp/dhcp to send a REAL MAC address out and obtain IP information.
The problem with the Mac zealots (I know more than my share of them) is that they disparage anything relating to non-Macs, and generally regard non-Mac users as stupid or backwords. In addition, they dont realize that due to the proprietary and closed nature of Apples in general, and how in particular they have bastardized existing protocols, interoperability between Macs and the rest of the world is generally quite poor. This is not the PC worlds fault, it is the fault of those who thought they had a better idea, and then kept it on their own platform without offering it to others.
Mac TCP has caused so many problems at our company that Macs are not allowed on the network anymore. They cause problems with routing, with mail delivery, with service provision, etc. They do not play well at all with Unix machines, they play horribly with PCs. And it is their own damned fault. Whether or not they are superior is irrelevant. Apple made a choice not to make a machine that played well with others. This fellow is paying the price for Apples decision. His mistake is blaming others for it.
So in short, I have no sympathy for this guy, as he has demonstrated that he is largely technically clueless about the issues, and that he is yelling at the wrong people about the problems. If he seriously needed to get onto the net this way, he could easily get a cheapo 486 with 2 network cards and have it do NAT for him running Linux. This would be cheap and fast, with no pain from his choice of desktop. Rather than do this, he wastes many peoples time and money doing his Mac advocacy, which is poorly placed in most contexts anyway...
Folks, there is no excuse for being ignorant of the real issues, and beating up companies for the wrong ones. He brought it upon himself because of his complete lack of comprehension of the problem. Had he understood the problem, using a PC running Linux (or hell... even 95) as a router/NAT would be a cheap and obvious solution.
However it is apparant that this guy wanted BA to fix the Macs problem, and not be reasonable about it.
Oh well
Out here in Omaha, we have cable modem service provided by Cox@Home. Now, Omaha is a very PC heavy city... hell, colleges still require COBOL classes over C and C++. Up until CompUSA arrived, there was two places to buy Macs: a small Apple dealer and a furniture store.
So, when I found out that Cox would install a cable modem for my going on 3 year old Mac, I was almost shocked. What? You're actually going to do it? Supported and all?
See, the problem isn't that Mac's are harder to support or that they are so different that it costs twice as much, it's that people don't realize how similar they are to PCs when it comes to network standards. Yeah, I've heard the DHCP has it's problems, but it's workable.
The common attitude is that they think Macs use some sort of wierd form of networking that won't work with their system. Wrong. Standard TCP/IP, standard 10BaseT Ethernet, same http, same ftp, same smtp, same pop3.
Someone above said why bother with the other 10% of the market, especially when supporting that 90% is so easy. My opinion is why shut out 10% of the market, especially when learning the little differences is so easy that getting that 10% takes little or no effort.
BTW, what the hell on the PC makes getting the MAC address so easy? It's not on a label on the outside of the machine. Last I checked, it wasn't in the Network Neighborhood properties dialog box (or is it just hidden?). I do know that on the Mac, you can go into the System Profiler and it shows the addresses.
Also, another point that has been said is that this isn't just a Mac user whining. It's a non-Microsoft user that's being denied service. And a lot of Slashdot user's could easily find themselves in that group.
dennis
Posted by Assmodeus:
guys who really cares if they wont support macs...its their damn choice and if they dont want to support whiny people with polls up their asses they i really dont blame them...
If the OSS community or just technical people in general ever want to have the power we seemingly desire to shape this industry, then we need to come up with some sort of methods for dealing with companies who act like this... Whether or not it's some sort of international boycott or a refusal to cooperate professionally (for those who are employed by other companies). If we all told Bell Atlantic, or any other company for that matter that we felt policy X was unjust and that until they change it we will simply make it as difficult as possible to do business, anywhere!!
As long as we don't cross over into violating RICO law or anything nutty like that, we just might have an impact on lame-ass companies trying to push consumers around. If we don't do something, we could all wind up looking at a world that resembles a William Gibson novel.....
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
Voice over IP will hurt the Long distance providers more than it would Baby Bells, who usually offer unlimited local calling, and small change for regional calls
"Small change" for regional calls my @$$!!! I am stuck with US Worst, and their rates to call my parents or mother in law who live within 50 miles of me (in the same area code) are higher than what it costs me to call California with AT&T. Nonlocal intrastate calls are usually the highest domestic rate there is.
And if you have Sendmail running, and some spammer uses it to relay their spam, MediaOne will cancel your account, or so they say.
I dunno if it's available everywhere, but GTE's been rolling out DSL in my area and their pricing seemed reasonable (384kbs + service for $90). I didn't even have to tell them I had a Mac, they asked me and were already prepared for hooking up Macs to their DSL. It's coming in this friday, I'll tell you how it goes...
webslacker
Can't get it here. We (NM) were on the list of planned rollouts until the day rollout arrived.
NM was removed and hasn't been on the list since.
Of course, they still don't seem to able to deploy ISDN in the state's second largest city, so why should they be any more competent when it comes to any other service.
The saddest part of all is that in the areas of the state served by GTE, xDSL is available and has been for some time.
To sum it up, for NM, US Waste blows goats.
When I was thinking of ordering service I didn't know much about cable modems. The type used by MediaOne is Lan City. I called them and asked about Linux. They told me that's what they had been testing with. I then called the Engineer who would preform the install at my house. He claimed it was fine. I then called the tech support people who also said it was fine, if it had DHCP, cause most tech support calls were about network problems. If was only when I called to place the order that I had a problem. The sales person/order taker claimed that the form they used on the computer did not have a checkbox for Linux, only Windows, NT, and Mac. She was also majorly dumb, so I called again hoping to get a nice person. I did, but she said that they could not install, due to the fact that someone had called from my number asking for service for a Linux box. I told her it was me, and that I was feeling much better now. I lied and told the nice lady I just purchased a G3 1000Mhz Mac with 1TB of RAM and 15TB of disk space, which she quickly typed into the market research database.
When the people came to do the install I told them not to ever touch me PC. They looked at each other, then one said "Linux?" I smile and said "Yup." The other guy said "Damn Straight!" We talked Linux and they installed everything.
God save us from the willfully bumb.
-- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri