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EvangeList closes down
Otter writes " The EvangeList mailing list, the rallying point of the MacOS community during Apple's darkest years, has come to an end.
Guy Kawasaki writes, "In the past two years Apple has experienced a stunning turnaround. This
is due to many things including the steadfast loyalty of Apple's customers--and EvangeListas are the most steadfast of the steadfast.
The original purpose of EvangeList was to counteract the negative news about Apple and Macintosh, and I believe that EvangeList has served its purpose--fantastically, as a matter of fact. So after discussing what we should do with EvangeList with the folks at Apple, we've decided to retire the list."
As Apple has come off the critical list, EvangeList has pretty much petered out. Looks like Team Slashdot will be moving up in the distributed.net rankings. " Man, what's a guy to do? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
while we're on the subject of bad OSes, tell me how the MacOS is preferable even to Windows?
Gee, I hate to rain on your hardware superiority parade...
Yes...but look at the OS that's running the top two servers according to netcraft...
http://www.netcraft.co.uk/Survey/influence.html
Isn't it about time Jobs cancelled the iMac and the G3 line of PowerMacs and closed up shop like he did with the Newton? ;-) What an idiot.
Yugadl bedranguk:
- Yo b'dragl charedim valoopta;
- Al-Hakkariya, al-Zawazan, Herzliyya
- Saag mutter trond blugidyth paneer
- Badr al-Din Lu'lu'
DOMDTO? Uu frwegdemt uvfam, oxfam.Ko.
Ethschmer.
Fimts.
while you ditch diggers are busy putting in the overtime... us users are out there flying...
enjoy the life
Don't tell me that www.macaddict.com needs an enterprise server. /. runs on a P2/450 with 512M of RAM. Are you telling me that Apple doesn't make a computer of this calibre?
No, Apple doesn't make anything as powerful as a dual PII/450. G3's don't support SMP, so the last multiprocessor machines were based on the PPC 604e and they're discontinued.
joeI've been using my old 520c for RC5 for some time, and it still beats out my friends' PCs with 200MHz+ PII.
What are you talking about? I'm sitting at a PII/233 right now that does about 630k/keys per second when I'm not using it and it's about as slow a P-II as you're going to find. The Powermac 7200/90 sitting next to it does about 145k/keys per second under OS 8.5.1 and about 155k/keys per second under LinuxPPC R4. I just can't imagine a PB 520 doing better than any P-II if it still has it's original 68LC040 in it.
joe
Hehehe, last time I looked, EvengeLista had the puny machines - you just have lots of members.
:)
The Amiga has higher keyrates per member, and it's going to rise quite a bit in future... oh yes... BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Ahem...
Well, I hope so, anyway - there's only about 5% of netted up Amigans in RC5 ATM
Errm, hate to mention this, but anti-aliased fonts have been around since Win95. Sorry, guys, but actually the mac was copying windows. Damn, we'll have to hush that one up, won't we?
Right On! Macs would have had less of a PR problem if it wasn't for self-righteous idiots like GK. He and his raving maniacs caused more than one IT managet to write off the Mac OS as just an OS for a bunch of pimply-nosed brats.
Well, maybe not more than one, but at least the one I was in.
I hate how people keep thinking that Apple simply lifted the Xerox PARC GUI. The GUI that was seen by the Apple team when they were visiting Xerox PARC was really very primitive. In fact, many of the things that the Apple team thought it did it really didn't do (such as overlapping windows). All told, they only saw the demo which lasted a few minutes. But this inspired them to go in the GUI direction. But what Apple came up with with the Mac OS (including some major things like having icons used to represent files and applications (nouns) as opposed to tasks (verbs) was pretty big, as was the overall design of it.
It is popular to cast Apple as simply ripping off the GUI, because it helps people who want to dismiss Apple's contributions to the computer industry. But it is irritating when people make statements about the Xerox GUI and Mac/Lisa GUI based on something they read in some book. Very few people have seen the GUI for a Xerox Alto, and even less saw the state of it in 1979, which is when the Apple team saw it.
Many of the things that Xerox is given credit for didn't necessarily even originate there. The concept of a system using a mouse and a windowing scheme was invented by Douglas C. Engelbert, who in turn was largely inspired by Vannevar Bush.
It's easy to throw around buzzwords, but as a whole they don't always mean everything. Yes, the Mac OS currently does not have preemptive multitasking. But it's multitasking scheme is not purely cooperative multitasking either. The thread manager has been part of the Mac OS since the early 90's (starting with System 7 pro or System 7.1 I believe). As this has become more generally adopted, the quality and performance of multitasking has improved a lot. There are still some poorly written apps, but in general with most of the mainstream apps it has gotten better.
The same goes for memory protection. Ever since OS 8 Apple has been quietly modifying parts of the OS to deal with this as much as they can. This is getting a big overhaul with Mac OS 8.6, which includes the nanokernel originally developed for the Copland project.
The fact is that preemptive multitasking and protected memory are nice to have (which is what I have right now on my machine running Mac OS X Server, and others will have when Mac OS X comes out) but an operating system can still have problems even with them. Windows 95/98 has protected memory and preemptive multitasking, but that doesn't mean it necessarily works better.
In generally I have more problems trying to do multitasking on my Win98 machine than I do on my Mac. On my Mac with 192 megs of RAM I'm able to have Excel, Photoshop, IE and Netscape and various other apps running with no slow-downs or problems as some things are done in the background, etc. But on my Windows machine I often have much greater system slow downs when trying to run multiple apps at the same time. And I also still encounter various memory errors on my Windows machine, forcing me to restart. I haven't experienced any sort of system error or anything that forced me to restart machine since when Mac OS 8.0 first came out.
Many times when a program decides to crash the system does too.
WINE has done a good job of providing a backwards compatible API for windows.
If they had the source code to windows, they probably would be finished with it by now.
Its pretty rare now that one app will crash the whole system. It might puke on you and make you restart the machine after saving your work, but it rarely freezes the whole computer.
--
Scudsucker
The gimp is better then photoshop by a good margin already.
:-)
:-)
:-)
Them's fighten words!
My mother who bairly knows where the on button is, runs linux.
What if she wants to install some software and you're not around?
And what more then quake do you need to play?
Myth, SimCity3000, C&C2 (for which I will have to use windows ):
But you are right, Quake 3 and Civ2:Call to Power should waste more than enough of my time.
I'm sad to see the Evangelist go as they had helped me promote my Mac based products in the past. However, in the past month I have sent them press releases for my latest offerings, and they haven't gotten posted. As everyone has pointed out, there hasn't been much traffic, so it's not like they were overloaded. It's a bit annoying, but so it goes.
-D
Get her a Mac with At Ease. It is the most mindless GUI ever made (ie-a gerbil could figure it out).
No news is better than bad news isn't it. Whem given the choice between dedicated apple bashers like Hiawatha Bray ranting on or shuting up I'd rather he shut up.
The gimp is better then photoshop by a good margin already.
Yeah, maybe for making Quake skins. I've used the GIMP and I can say the it needs to come along way before it can claim to be better than photoshop.
Unfortunately, Apple's comeback isn't very substantive yet. The biggest reason they stopped losing money is that they dramatically cut expenses via downsizing. The only thing that has done anything to increase revenue is the iMac, and I suspect that pretty soon it will be looked on as a temporary fad whose day has passed.
OS X is desparately needed - for too long, the Mac has had great hardware but a technologically mediocre OS. Having a bona fide modern OS on the Mac will NOT be a mere gimmick (like the iMac so clearly is).
Call me a pessimist, troll, or whatever, but it would only take a short run of bad luck to put Apple on the ropes again.
Just keep on thinking that...
If you want to get into fonts, I think the Mac wins that one hands down, too.
You must remember that the first product from The steves was the bluebox. They drove the phone companies crazy with that little box. I still see that same attitude. I hope they still fly a pirate flag somewhere at Infinite loop.
One other thing about the MacOS. It isn't ugly. Look at the Windows desktop and you see something that was designed by engineers. Look at the Mac and you see something that was designed by engineers and artists. That is the big difference, the mac has a more "Human" approach to the computer.
I'd rather look at the Mac GUI than the windows GUI, just as I'd rather look at WindowMaker than KDE. Ashley Judd or Janet Reno? which one would you choose?
I think even the MacOS haters agree that the BeOS is a pretty sweet desktop platform.
But what does www.beos.com run? Apache on Solaris.
Does this utterly invalidate all claims of the BeOS to competency?
Of course not.
Likewise for the MacOS.
CrAlt said:
"cult (kult) n. 1) a system of religious observances. 2) Extravagant devotion to a PERSON, CAUSE, or THING. 3) the object of such devotion. 4) A group of persons having an
excessive interest in something. "
My favorite definition is from Tom Wolfe:
"A cult is a religion with no political power."
the PB G3 should be able to run linux-intel in VPC, but I believe it can run linuxPPC natively. Check out www.linuxppc.org & www.linuxppc.com for info.
Can't help w/OSX (server) or Darwin, but it should be able to run OSX (non-server) when it's released.
Yep. It's fast.
Goord kp'oloonghu aath phyrt bl'blojk flood. Eretz shawarma, efess echad shnayim shalosh arba.
Taco is gay.
So after discussing what we should do with EvangeList with the folks at Apple, we've decided to retire the list.
Conjecture: Could it be that Apple, on the virge of something that could finally be considered success, didn't want a listful of raving lunatic advocates scaring everyone away?
Fairness: Guy K. is actually a hell of a guy, and he's done a lot of positive stuff with the 'List. It's all the other ranting maniacs that made it such a queasy pit.
Muttering: I'm actually glad to see it go. It was fairly easy to filter out when it was organized: much of the 'List consisted of the choir being preached at. Now it'll be that much harder to contain.
resident Mac-uber-alles evangelist on alt.destroy.microsoft.
Mbo hvotgra! Nu, bevakasha de broodjes vong khoglolydet dnefriu ob -- juy ne qt'milu verklemt. Da, da.
this type of arboreal troll will become saracen.
Vem, vim, vem. Oohlapyu plach'ngurd vnivrers flughafen, bahnhof, gare.
Zlibdy-nibdy!
Look at the numbers. Slashdot's already surpassing the EvangaListas in RC5. Last I checked the stats (a couple days ago), Slashdot's keyrate was half again EvangaListas', with 2/3 the number of members...
At current rates, it'll be a year or so before Slashdot actually passes the EvangaListas in the overall standings, because the EvangaListas built up such an overwhelming lead before Slashdot became a power to be reckoned with. It'll happen, though, assuming no one finds the key before then. The rates'll change, too... and the relative delta lately has been very much in Slashdot's favor...
And, for the record, my CPU power isn't going to either Slashdot or the EvangaListas... my 1.5Mk/s goes to trying to keep the Vermont Technical College Computer Club in at least the top 200... (We were as high as 20, once, in the days immediately after RC5-56... Then the big boys got their CPU power switched over...)
A few years ago, I'd have agreed with "it's not the hardware, but the software, that's lacking". With no SMP support in G3, though, the hardware appears to be lacking, at least in some respects, at the moment, too. On the other hand, Apple's finally borrowed^Owritten a real OS, so the software's catching up to the rest of the world.
Those of you who've read Neal Stephenson's essay (Those of you who haven't, go read it now. I mean it. It may be the best piece of writing that's _ever_ been linked from Slashdot.): What does this mean for Apple's future? Are they going to continue to be a hardware-oriented company? (If so, expect no MacOS X for x86, ever.) Are they going to try to get into the OS sales business? (If so, expect a good x86 port in the immediate future.) Are they going to try to do both? (If so, expect a really crappy x86 port. Solaris x86, anyone?)
And I won't mention Photoshop/GIMP, because that issue's been done to death more than once. Everyone knows what the relative strengths and weaknesses are. GIMP kicks ass, and it's free (and Free), but it's missing a couple of vital features that professionals really need. (CYMK. I don't know what it is, but I know that they need it.)
The games situation appears to be fast on its way to rectifying itself. I've always said, give me Civ for Linux, and I can die happy. Well, it's on its way.
And I've been seriously considering putting together a Linux box for my (_completely_ computer-illiterate) grandmother. A Mac is _way_ over her competency level, and all she wants to do is browse a certain web site and maybe send email, so I'm thinking about setting her up an old machine that mounts everything possible read-only, boots straight into X with Netscape basically as the window manager, dials the modem automatically, and can be just turned off when she's done with it. I'd be able to do updates and repairs on it, if necessary, remotely, which is an important feature, because she lives close to a thousand miles from us.
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
Primitive? Are you deranged? How many "new" or "high end" windoze features are old mainstream mac features?
Multiple monitors, auto poweron/off, SCSI, the ability to boot from any drive you connect(except the new fruity colored machines), RISC processing, a complete GUI these are all things that Apple's Engineers brought to the market YEARS before HewlettComPackarDell even though of them.
LK
Posted by F.A.N.G.:
I really do not understand Apple's marketing plan for the Macintosh, I never did. No EvangeList would have been necessary without their suicidal marketing.
It seems as if they want to marginalize their product with bemusing ads filled with weirdos, artists, and assorted freaks(and bad grammar). At best they can get the market towards which they are aiming. In reality they can only achieve a portion of this segment.
In rare cases they do focus on the superior technology and other features and benifits of Macs, but then they would counter this with some Feliniesqe tragic clown pleading with the masses to "Think Different(ly)".
I imagine the boardroom:
guy1) We can show off the vastly superior graphics of our system by rendering complex wireframe images. Twice as fast as a PC, that will impress people!
guy2) No, we should have a fuzzy black and white still from the "Bicycle Thief", with dirty typewriter font for our tagline.
BUT Versus PC's, which is the least "conformist" machine?
Mac: One manufacturer. You get the models and options Big Apple says you want.
PC: hundreds of manufacturers, hundreds of models.
You can home brew any system you desire, and you don't need a NEA grant to buy one.
I like Macs, love them even. But I cringe with every new ad campaign.
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>Mutiple Monitors: Only really used by people doing graphics arts, etc, and most of them just buy one huge monitor. Very little demand. The PC has always been strictly determined by what people are willing to pay for.>Auto Power on/off: Actually, it's not really that old, and is only slightly older than the ATX form factor, which is fully capable of doing automatic power on/off >SCSI: Well, I could equally say that it took macs a long time to support IDE. It's a matter of which standard was chosen at the beginning. And IDE pretty much always has been and probably always will be cheaper than SCSI, which no doubt had a good bit do do with it being chosen for the PC.>RISC: WGAS? It's not like having a non-RISC processor makes PC's inherently(sp?) inferior.>GUI: Have you ever seen one of the machines Xerox Parc put out? Looks remarkably like a mac, so I don't think mac people are in a position to claim invention there. I learned to use DOS before I was 7, and could copy and move files around, run WordPerfect (4.2 for DOS), play games, etc. It is only very recently in the history of computers that having a GUI was seen as a necessary thing. 90% of what I do with a computer still involves typing things into a text prompt, be it the comment entry in slashdot, or an xterm. I am not a slackware-cli-is-god-all-else-must-die type, and I rather dislike those who are, but nonetheless, I find it much faster to use the keyboard for things. Thus I have keyboard hotkeys for virtually everything. >People bitch about Windows crashing all the time. However, many fail to note what the dialog on the mac that is the equivalent of the GPF dialog in windows looks like. On the mac, it has a bomb icon and a button that says Restart. About 35% of the time, the machine is so hosed that you can't even click on the restart button. In windows, you at least have some hope of recovering from the app crashing.
OK, maybe you can recover from an app crashing after a GPF but how often is it that you can't use your mouse or your screen doesn't refresh, or the house of cards falls and you get repeated GPFs? The MacOS way of dealing with program errors is less likely to cause other problems. Like, eg. if the crashed app corrupts your write cache.
Linux is a great server OS, Windoze is a great gaming OS, the MacOS is a great productivity OS.
LK
The EvangeList was best when it was a group of FUD Fighters (there's a band name idea!) and worst when it was a rabid pack of Mac-Maniacs...
We need more FUD Fighters...
...end of transmission...
MacOS 8.6 (in beta, should be released in a couple weeks) has preemptive multi-tasking. And SMP(real) for up to 64 processors. And a new memory protection manager (though, not as good as Linux). These improvments are brought by a new kernel called NuKernel. Uses technology from the Copland project.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
It certainly will run Mac OS X, due for release later in the year. It will also run Mac OS X *Server*, out now, unsupported.
I don't see how this will really help Slashdot go up in rc5 statistics except in the very long term. Slashdot has already been taking first in the daily statistics, and they are far enough behind in the overall statistics that even with the EvangeListas gone completely (and there will probably still be a lot people who don't switch off of that team anyway.) it would take months to close the gap in overall blocks at the current rate team Slashdot is going. Not to mention that I think that the Seti at home project is going to draw a lot of people away from rc5 anyway. I've already switched my machine over to setiathome. I think we've proven the point about encryption, and even if we break the current rc5 challenge, I don't think the point will be emphasized that much more. On the other hand, if we can actually pick up signals from other intelligent life, well the possibilities are endless. Regardless of the odds, that's where I'm putting my cpu cycles.
Shawn Asmussen
It's not downsizing that cut Apple's expenses, not at this point. What cut Apple's expenses in the long (current) run was the most sophisticated and effective supply-chain management in the industry. Apple is manufacturing Macs with only *one day* of inventory! That is by far the best performance of any computer manufacturer. And, considering new hardware has roughly the shelf-life of, well, an apple, vendors need to move it before it rots and has to be dumped at below cost. In other words, Apple isn't hemmorhaging money trying to unload last year's models to make warehouse space and working capital for this year's models - unlike the Apple of yesteryear, and unlike most PC manufacturers.
There is more to the new iMac and G3 lines than packaging. By dumping the old product lines, Jobs also dumped inefficient manufacturing techniques. Apple is now making just three different computers, varying only in CPU speeds, disk, and RAM - this also simplifies the manufacturing process. No, the success of Apple today didn't come from downsizing, it came from quality.
That being said, i completely agree that OS/X is desparately needed, and on EVERY new Mac (not just servers). The sad Mac, i think, is seeing such a wonderful interface on such wonderful hardware with such junky OS internals. It pains me to think that NT is significantly superior to MacOS internally. Personally, i think the beginning of the downhill slide for Apple was when they didn't put hardware memory protection and preemptive multitasking into System 7 (at a time when they were almost ready to drop the last of the 68000-based Macs). If they'd fixed the internal problems back then, i think MacOS could have dominated the market.
But that's neither here nor there. I don't think Apple is out of the woods yet, but they've definitely found a trail. In the end, Linux is FAR more likely to kill the Mac than Windows. Why? Because like the Mac, people LOVE Linux.
Hand me that airplane glue and I'll tell you another story.
But it could have been much worse. This is likely the ending for the EvangeList that Guy Kawasaki dreamed of: the EvangeList ended because it is no longer needed. Not because Apple died. Not because someone sued. Not because Billy won. Because Apple won a major victory (if you'll check the latest stats, Apple's market share in the retail channel has gone past 10% once again). And, from all indications, it's only going to get better for the foreseeable future.
And, as in all great legends, the EvangeList will return in the Mac's time of greatest need to vanquish all enemies and secure the Mac's place in the industry once and for all. Wait; Apple already secured its place in the industry. Oh well; you know what I mean...
Technically, MacOS is inferior ( Memory protection comes to mind ). However due to the responsible behavior of Mac ISVs and the alleged cleanness of the API ( Apple doesn't shift it to kill competitors ) Macs are surprisingly stable.
:)
Not crash proof like Linux but I have seen Macs left on 24/7 and used most of the time ( 2x10 hour shifts ) that don't go down for weeks at least.
Also Mac device drivers tend to behave nicely.
No I didn't mention Linux or *nix since the question wasn't about them
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
>Uh huh. What if you want to run Photoshop, some games or give a
>computer to your grandmother
The gimp. My mother who bairly knows where the on button is, runs linux.
Uh huh. What if you want to run Photoshop, some games or give a computer to your grandmother :-)
The gimp is better then photoshop by a good margin already.
My mother who bairly knows where the on button is, runs linux.
And what more then quake do you need to play?
> Bah! Linux is good but it can't do client stuff as well as some. BeOS: way of the future baby ;)
:/ ...Oh well, at least LinuxPPC runs on it...
Can't do client stuff as well? Huh? As an experienced BeOS and Linux user I can tell you Linux does just as well, if not better, than BeOS on the client side. I'm not about to introduce an OS tax in my future computing so BeOS is, uhm, a nice toy, good idea pool, etc, but no way my main OS. The fact that Be is going to drop PPC support soon also doesn't help me very much with my BeBox
Bedev #E-1516
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
All the fringe types are going to have to find a new fringe platform to support. They'll probably switch over to BeOS. I can very easily see BeOS becoming the next Amiga in terms of advocacy. Atleast it is technically sound. Macs have alot going for them, but MacOS is still quite technologically primitive. Maybe OS X will change things...
Linux is good and it's politics are better, but it's also probably too mainstream for the "oppressed" these days. Who knows? Perhaps those seeking a cause will come upon FreeBSD. Instead of Mac vs. Big Evil MS, the struggle could be FreeBSD vs. Big Evil Linux. Then again, nah...
--Lenny
//"You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN.
It's really just Peek and Poke with some syntactic sugar."
> Primitive? Are you deranged?
No, I'm not. It's just that I'm talking about kernels here. Unless I'm mistaken, even the 8.x series of MacOS kernels lacks pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory. These concepts have been well understood for decades and their power proven time and again. And this is not deep magic. Heck, even *I* have written a kernel with pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory.
I don't consider a decent GUI and environment a technology, though some would argue that it is. It *is* an important aspect of computing, however. That is what I was referring to with the "many other things going for it" line.
As for RISC, I would question your history. Unfortunately, I don't have a decent source on me to reference, so I'm not going to be able to argue with you.
BTW- I don't consider many of Window's features "high end". I'm largely interested in computing from a systems perspective. BeOS is reminescant of MacOS in many ways, but the kernel, API, and filesystem are all far more advanced from a strictly technical standpoint. The performance (especially on multimedia) is supposed to be quite impressive as a result.
--Lenny
//"You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN.
It's really just Peek and Poke with some syntactic sugar."
This sounds like a large step forward technology-wise. I wish them well.
--Lenny
//"You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN.
It's really just Peek and Poke with some syntactic sugar."
Why did the MacEvangelists do all this work? They payed Apple for a computer and a OS. Then apple trains them to go out a sell more mac's for APPLE and "stop all the anti-mac FUD".
someone posted:
>>. The evangelist probably could have done a good job toning down some of the slashdot threads if they were told to hang out on these boards at all. . I bet if this guy said so all the Apple sheep^H^H^H^H^H^ users would do it...
Why? Is apple paying them? No. All they do is make Apple richer. Its almost as bad as us going out and selling Windows for MS....and NOT EVEN GET PAID for it.
So now that all these mac heads worked so hard they still will go out and buy the newest Mac and version of MacOS just because its newest thing with the Apple logo on it. No, no people its not a cult(1)...realy..
My computer serves me...I dont serve it.
(1)
cult (kult) n. 1) a system of religious observances. 2) Extravagant devotion to a PERSON, CAUSE, or THING. 3) the object of such devotion. 4) A group of persons having an excessive interest in something.
I have to return some videotapes...
All arguments aside, MacAddict runs on a SGI/Irix box because that's what ALL of Imagine Media's websites run on. MacAddict, IGN64, PSMOnline (or whatever its called these days), Next Generation, PC Accellerator, and all the rest.
They all run on Irix. I really don't know *why* because it seems to give them nothing but trouble.
--
Posted with Mozilla
i've never own a Mac and touched only first macintosh I (the little box). When i was *young* i've always said that mac was crap because there were no shell prompt, but they had good ideas in GUI, anyway, it's a pity that an old respectable mailinglist dissapear like this :-(...
even if i'm using w98/qnx/beos on a i386 box, i wish all people using a mac will find another good support.
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
I've owned personal computers since 1983 (Atari 8-bit, Atari 16/32, i486 upgraded 3x, then platform switched to Motorola StarMax Mac clone, a P120 for Win95 and Linux, then last month got a shiny BW G3). I've never subscribed to Evangelista so I don't know what I missed.
There WAS a perception out there that these were "fanatical Amiga types" (no dis to Amiga fans), and that's why I probably avoided it. It was enough for me when I saw misinformation online that was SO inaccurate about Apple, that you have to wonder how this person finished school. You know, the stereotypes, the fud, occasional lies. Microsoft did not invent FUD for Linux... if you read the Hallow's Eve document they've implied their past FUD successes without specifically mentioning Apple.
I also stayed away from most Mac-based journals and mailing lists because I've been using computers so long I don't want to hear someone ask how to setup Eudora or import Mickeysoft Word documents. On average, the Mac does MOST of the things I want done better than any OS, although I could draw up a long list of annoyances for any OS (though none would be as long as the M$ list). Apple stressed simplicity to the point of not being able to customize the UI. I don't like that, and I'm glad that philosophy was let go starting with System 8.
I'm kind of sad to learn this list is shutting down, I missed out things I didn't know about like jokes, technical information, job postings and so on. It's too bad I'm learning the list was portrayed and demonized as something it was not. The lesson really is don't judge a group by its members... closer to home we see Slashdot also has a fair share of idiots, trolls, fanatics... sometimes they are who they appear to be (the world isn't perfect), and sometimes they are "the enemy" dressed up like us (like Microsoft seeding online bulletin boards and letter campaigns).
The most important lesson in life is, "Relax, and have a homebrew".
It's much easier now to ignore the trolls without needing to defend Apple... the more these people cling to their stereotypes lies and FUD, whatever it is about, the more they will be marginalized or portrayed as fanatics. (Of course it helps that we are all WINNING for the moment).
Like the idiot at c|net who wrote about the death of MP3... someone said he has worked for Microsoft and besides the MS push for MP3 FUD he also wrote some inaccurate trash about Linux.
I'm glad that Apple's survival seems to people to now be a fait accompli, but I will miss the EvangeList. I had a feeling this was coming, with the postings getting smaller and smaller lately. Anyhow, the same way Linux and the Open Source movement represent something necessary and good for this industry, Apple does too. Say what you will about their antiquated memory management, Apple was (and is) historically the only platform designed more by artists than by engineers and focus groups. I still do a lot of work on my good old PowerBook 3400, and my non-computer savvy wife and mother both use iMacs. Yes, Linux is a fundamentally sounder platform, and I use it for more and more at home (and at work), but when I just need to fire up the machine and get something quick done, I still use my Mac.
(Besides, I've never seen a Usenet reader as slick as MT-Newswatcher on any other platform)
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Everytime I hear something like this it gives me such a warm fuzzy feeling to use linux and know this sort of thing just cannot happen to me.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Linux "can't do client stuff"? Huh? It can do anything at all. In fact, you could share a single PC among three or four users with xterms (once people get into this idea xterms should become hideously cheap) and mount the $HOMEs via smb/nfs/coda (has anyone played with coda yet?) from the central server. Beautiful. Having a P2-500 PC on everyone's desk is a total waste. Linux would make the best client OS ever.
Besides, I heard that BeOS has no filesystem security - is this true? If it is it has no place in a modern business.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Here's to Guy and John for doing an incredible job of carrying the Mac torch for many years. I enjoyed being a member of list. But, yes, our "beleagured" Apple is now KICKING ASS. And, no, Slashdot WILLNOT SURPASS the EvangeList in RC5. You r puny machines just can't keep up..... ;-)
Apple's doing a great job now selling iMacs
---
it's not by Microsoft :)
---
If my college team would get off it's @ss, we'd be in the top 10...over 500 G3s in one lab alone...just sitting there 75% of the time...
*drool*
Never let your fears overcome your dreams.
> Yes there is, they call it Linux ;-]
;)
;) )
;)
Bah! Linux is good but it can't do client stuff as well as some. BeOS: way of the future baby
(Lets see how long this stream lasts before the admins purge it
Believe with me, my saplings.
I should have been more clear (OK, less incorrect :) ) with my client comment (and not written it coming off a night-and-a-half-shift ). I meant as far as productivity, useability for the stuff computers are used for, rather than the infrastructure. So... um... yeah. Stuff related to 'users'. But that's important.
I really don't like kde or gnome that much. But Be's good.
Believe with me, my saplings.
I see some of the zelotenous posts for/aginst the Mac from this comment. Comments like this are not to be read into THAT much. They are not complete arguements. They are simply some points someone feels important, and most, reguardless of position or platform, *ARE RIGHT* from the persepective they were written from. I reiterate, don't read into these that much. Remember, to each his platform.
My two cents.
I love my computer -- You make me feel alright (Bad Religion)
Everyone, please take off your hats and have a moment of silence for the EvangeList. Not only did they support the Mac in it's time of need, but they taught all of us how to advocate our platform. Guy was always about doing it the "right way." No flames. No attacks. Just simple, polite letters.
It was an institution I'm proud to say I was a suscriber to. I look forward to many years of Linux et al based on the push to be different that came from the Mac community. The List was great support for all of the beligered Mac users.
I understand that it came to a natural demise too. I have been reading less and less of the mailings, and the last few months have piled up unred for the most part for me. I think that's something most of the list community has felt. Now that Apple isn't the butt of everyone's jokes and jabs, it really isn't needed so.
Now if only we could get Wozniak back... WOW! that would be great.
The Mac is Dead! Long live the Mac!
The List is Dead. Long live its spirit.
I love my computer -- You make me feel alright (Bad Religion)
So, not really focused on Evangalista, but sorta, heh, I was wondering if it's possible to join the Slashdot team in the rc5 contest...and how. Ignore my other link.... Moss Website
Among other lists, there is still the MacMarines at http://www.macmarines.com.
I'm sure many writers just avoided the topic of Apple because they just couldn't deal. It would have been in Apple's interest to have shut the thing down a long time ago.
Yes, well, as an expatriate of EvangeList (well before its shutdown) I can say that most every post to the list that was about "unfair" coverage of Apple and the Mac was also followed by a plea from John Kalbig ("The Digital Guy") to NOT flame the writer out of existence.
But I suspect that the extreme nature of those who read EvangeList isn't much worse than some of the frothing-at-the-mouth commentary I read on Slashdot.
There was some good info on the 'List, too: I think I've still got the post about a person who tried to order a PC from many of the major OEMs without Windows pre-installed, with absolutely no success. (This was before the DOJ trial had started; the people on the 'List are just as anti-MS as Slashdot is, in many respects...)
I unsubscribed from EvangeList not because of the rabid nature of the Mac enthusiasts (it was a moderated forum, so most of what I got was well-written and articulate) but after a while the "special EvangeLista deals" (aka commercial email) drowned out what little good stuff there was.
But now, if I start crunching RC5-64 keys again, I can now switch my allegiance from Team EvangeList to Team Slashdot with a clear conscience. *grin*
Jay (=
(Who bought a LinuxPPC CD and is going to start learning about Linux largely because of Slashdot)
Too bad italic fonts look like crap on a Mac.
Evangelist wasn't *that* bad. It is really interesting to note the psychological influences throughout the computer world. The evangelists were the "black panthers". The hard-core guys willing to do anything for "the good fight". Classical majority/majority conflicts exist.
It's all pretty simple. People should just chill out more and not let things get so personal. They are, after all, computers.
regards,
remy
http://www.mklinux.org
The Mac needed the Evangelist because there was no organized way of fighting all the FUD and bad press for the Mac.[1] /.) With the Mac, people are less likely to do so because they think (rightly so) that it's Apple's job to advertise for the Mac. Unfortunately, advertizing only does so much. The largest problem that the Macintosh has had is industry prejudices and bias. These require a lot more than good Ads to be overcome.[2] One of the ways Apple was trying to fight back was with the Evangelist. It isn't the only way to fight back though, personally I prefer MacKiDo's style (Actually, it's an interesting place to learn about some of the stunts that Intel and Micro$oft have pulled in the past[2]) Now Apple feels that it dosen't need people to evangalize the Macintosh for them anymore, which I think is a Good Thing(TM) because it's a sign that they're going to get up and start slugging it out for themselves. Given Apple's past preformances, it'll at the very least make for some cool ads ;-)
Linux is supported by the FSF and Open Source movement. It is also blessed with a mentality that if you think something should be done, then round up a couple of people and do it. (Just look at some of the rebuttals here on
[1]If you think the stuff about Linux is bad now, just wait till things get really warmed up.
[2] Think about this: we all know that Linux is a superior OS for a server, yet lots of IT shops use NT. Why?
[3] remember "know thy enemy..."
All those OS'es that rely on "advocacy"...
Unfortunately, you contradict yourself. An integral part of the Open Source movement has been Advocacy (Unless you don't count RMS, ESR and the like as Advocates). That isn't to say that Linux & Open Source isn't a Good Thing (TM), only that Advocacy isn't a Bad Thing (TM). How can you say you're a part of something if you're not willing to fight for it?
If it's not broken, don't fix it. (I wish MS would stick with this motto for their web site, how many redirects could a redirect direct if a redirect could direct redirect).
People use what is needed and available, when they set it up. They do not change on the whim of benchmark, or a new version.
Addict: Hint they are running 2.0 on Solaris. Old system.
Apple: Stability and support, SMP. Unlike slashdot, they have an income stream to keep up. Change does not come fast.
actually, Slashdot has been steadily beating Evangelista for a long time now. Evangelista is only ahead in the overall rankings because they got going sooner, and so built up a larger base of keys. In 4-5 months, unless the current trends reverse, Slashdot will take on #1 overall ranking in rc5.
-Cheetah
Do you know what "cooperative multitasking" means? It's ancient, and it was the only thing mac os did until OSX. As far as the other things you mentioned:
Mutiple Monitors: Only really used by people doing graphics arts, etc, and most of them just buy one huge monitor. Very little demand. The PC has always been strictly determined by what people are willing to pay for.
Auto Power on/off: Actually, it's not really that old, and is only slightly older than the ATX form factor, which is fully capable of doing automatic power on/off
SCSI: Well, I could equally say that it took macs a long time to support IDE. It's a matter of which standard was chosen at the beginning. And IDE pretty much always has been and probably always will be cheaper than SCSI, which no doubt had a good bit do do with it being chosen for the PC.
Boot Flexibility: Most PC's don't have external drives. Most PC's don't even have multiple internal drives. Being able to boot off of a random drive was never something PC people were begging for. For that matter, the primary thing I have seen it used for is to fix a mac that is so broken that it won't boot at all. It take real talent to get a PC to that state, but I've seen numerous macs do that.
RISC: WGAS? It's not like having a non-RISC processor makes PC's inherently(sp?) inferior.
GUI: Have you ever seen one of the machines Xerox Parc put out? Looks remarkably like a mac, so I don't think mac people are in a position to claim invention there. I learned to use DOS before I was 7, and could copy and move files around, run WordPerfect (4.2 for DOS), play games, etc. It is only very recently in the history of computers that having a GUI was seen as a necessary thing. 90% of what I do with a computer still involves typing things into a text prompt, be it the comment entry in slashdot, or an xterm. I am not a slackware-cli-is-god-all-else-must-die type, and I rather dislike those who are, but nonetheless, I find it much faster to use the keyboard for things. Thus I have keyboard hotkeys for virtually everything.
Overall, Apple has always been more concerned with image than with price or with the technology underneath the pretty picture. I have adminstered mac labs, I have programmed macs, I have programmed dos, and I have programmed windows (I have not yet programmed in X). I can say that mac wins the cheese for being the mose obtuse API, with windows coming in a close second if one ignores the existence of libraries like MFC and OWL. And I thought nothing could be worse than microsoft api documentation until I tried to read the mac os api documentation.
Oh, and HP and Dell have not had that much to do with the development of the interface in PC operating systems. HP may have had some to do with the hardware, but I don't know that history well enough to say anything definite about it.
People bitch about Windows crashing all the time. However, many fail to note what the dialog on the mac that is the equivalent of the GPF dialog in windows looks like. On the mac, it has a bomb icon and a button that says Restart. About 35% of the time, the machine is so hosed that you can't even click on the restart button. In windows, you at least have some hope of recovering from the app crashing.
That said, I think Apple is making a very good choice and a great leap forward with MacOS X. If what I have heard about it is true, then I will be curious to at least try it out and see how well it works. That is quite a compliment, given my current attitude about macs can be summed up as "I've gone through too much hell with these things. I don't want to touch it!" Granted, my attitude towards windows isn't that much better.
-Cheetah
Evangelist was a godsend when it started. It provided ammo, solutions and a support group for Apple users who were being pursued with hostile intent. It sounds paranoid but working as a Sys Admin you really got to see the way management would go after Macs for no apparent reason. Evangelists helped fight those sorts of stupid biases and allowed people to get back to work.
Its true though, Evangelist served its purpose. They are few and far between now, no more calls to action ( those were always fun ) and the news is covered better elsewhere. Evangelist is a victim of its own success and I wouldnt have it any other way.
All true, but down at the core--no preemptive multitasking, and no memory protection. That part of the OS, at least, remains primitive. Mac OS/X oughtta fix that, though.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
...on the virge of something that could finally be considered success, didn't want a listful of raving lunatic advocates scaring everyone away?
Gee, I'm glad Slashdot never descends to that level.
The music is not in the piano -Clement Mok
Geez, that old chestnut? Very well,
Color support no other OS can touch.
Plug and Play that works.
Trouble shooting takes minutes not hours.
It's gorgeous.
Easiest transition from analog to digital media for studio artists.
Vast majority of design studios and service bureaus use Macs. Said businesses employ unbelievably beautiful women.
24 bit icons w/8 bit alpha channels.
Steve Jobs. While many consider him to be the devil incarnate, there's no denying that every thing he's been associated with just oozes impeccable design and taste. The Mac. The NeXT Cube. OpenStep. Pixar. The iMac. The PowerBook G3 Series. Someone in computing has to represent the spirit of the Constructivists, The Bauhaus and the FlatIron Building. It wont be Bill Gates, and it sure as hell wont be Linus Torvalds.
The music is not in the piano -Clement Mok
Ooops, been using Pine too much... hit [enter] instead of [tab], anyway, back to the plot I for another will be sad to see the Evangelist go. I was a subscriber in the dark days of being forced to use NT at work. Now I use Linux/DEC Unix in uni. and MacOS/Linux at home and everything's OK again. Roll on MacOS X so we can have something *really* nice to play with.
-- johnmc.
Yeah, it might have been nice if the EvangeList switched gears and became a cool-Mac-news thing instead of Mac apologetics, but I guess the advocacy was ingrained into their name. Besides, there's a whole slew of other Mac groups and websites now.
BTW, Guy's at Garage.com now, a VC thing for startups.
Just go to distributed.net, and punch the 'top 100 teams' link. Find slashdot's team, click on the name and it'll take you to slashdot's team page.
At the very bottom of the page it says "I want to join this team". It's a hyperlink.
Click on it and do what it says.
Welcome to the team.
Hanzie.
********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
then it is to give up. I'll miss the EvangList. Not only was a rallying point for the Mac community it was a darn good source of information too. Job postings, PR, articles, editorials, jokes.
I have 879 of the 1403 digests that the Evangelist produced and I still reference them.
It's good that it's done though... it sends a message to the computing world that Apple and it's followers no longer need a group of fanatics to go defend their cause. I think Apple is finally climbing back into the mainstream.
wow, so some mac-addict requested those two web pages in netcraft until they reached the top. The other top picks make perfect sense, the first two don't.
As a cog in the Macintosh software machine, and a longtime supporter of the Mac, I feel saddened and elated at the same time for the end of the EvangeList.
On one hand, it has provided a rallying point for us during the dark days of Apple's recent troubles, and gave all of Macdom something we could point to and say "Look! This is what the Mac can do!"
On the other hand, it also became a target for what I consider to be the worst kind of Mac user; the overly-hateful, PC-trashing, Microsoft-bashing nerfherders who wouldn't know a good OS if it came bundled with a free CPU. I have long felt that these users (and I admit to have raised my voice in their defense on occasion) have done more to harm Apple and the Mac platform than Apple's financial misfortunes and Microsoft's dominance of the PC market combined. The rabid rantings of these few have turned away people who might have purchased a Mac, simply because their vehemence and vitriolic venting against the Wintel platform made potential Mac users blanch at the thought of being lumped in with those fanatics.
I use a Mac, not because it's the best platform for anything, but because it's what I like and it's what I'm used to. I like to use the MacOS because I am familiar with it, and I can make it do exaclty what I want it to do. Windows is not a bad operating system, for consumer-level use, and Linux in it's myriad flavors have much more power than I need for surfing the 'Net. The MacOS has functionality to spare for the tasks that I have to perform, as well as having plenty of software and hardware to toy around with.
I shall miss the EvangeList, but I may not miss some EvangeListas.
-The Cheese
Gee, I hate to rain on your hardware superiority parade but if Apple is so busy kicking ass and Mac is such a superior platform then why is www.macaddict.com using Netscape Enterprise 2.0 on an Irix box to run a "Mac" web site? And why for that matter is www.apple.com running Netscape 3.0 on a Solaris box?
Before OS X Server was released, where and when did Apple claim that Macs were suitable for enterprise servers? Hmmmm?
And if your platform is so great, why does it take about 15 minutes to install and configure 8.5 on a Mac and days or weeks on yours?
Each platform has its own advantages; there's no such thing as a one trick pony in computers.
Don't tell me that www.macaddict.com needs an enterprise server. /. runs on a P2/450 with 512M of RAM. Are you telling me that Apple doesn't make a computer of this calibre?
;-]
True, but it does need a stable server, and the old Mac OS just didn't cut it. It was never the hardware that was lacking but the software.
I expect most Mac sites will move to OS X Server or one of the PowerPC Linux distro's when its time to upgrade. But they aren't going to throw away a fairly new $10,000 Unix workstation just so they can be "all Mac".
Yes there is, they call it Linux
Uh huh. What if you want to run Photoshop, some games or give a computer to your grandmother.
Uh huh. Since 95. Apple has used one form of anti-aliasing or another since the Apple II.
Nice try......
These concepts have been well understood for decades and their power proven time and again. And this is not deep magic. Heck, even *I* have written a kernel with pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory.
Could you also provide backward compatibility to thousands of older apps since you would be switching to a kernel based OS? Could you also write an API that would allow a quick upgrade path for older applications?
GUI: Have you ever seen one of the machines Xerox Parc put out? Looks remarkably like a mac, so I don't think mac people are in a position to claim invention there.
Have you compared the Xerox park GUI to the Macs? You seem to forget that this happend over 20 years ago. Do you honestly think Apple has made only incremental improvements to the Xerox GUI?
No, Apple did not invent the GUI, but they have taken it light years beyond anything else (with the possible exception of the NeXT GUI).
In windows, you at least have some hope of recovering from the app crashing.
Its called a force quit. Command-option-esc.
Rare that it will crash the computer, I work at my schools computer lab as a help/consultant,
Wow, what a coincidence, so do I!
and I have yet to see a mac app crash that dosn't freeze up the whole system
Well, maybe your school's cs department is run by idiots like mine is. You see at my school, the powers that be think that letting Mac users force quit applications is bad, and disables it. So if an app freezes the gui, you have no choice but to do a hard restart.
granted that I don't think they have the latest os upgrade
Small world! At my school, we are stuck with 8.1 when they should have upgraded to 8.5 months ago.
Note: Most of the lockups occure when people go to save or to print,
Damn, we could almost be going to the same school here. The Mac printing setup is extremly half assed here.
1)will it run linux (redhat-intel) on the free copy of Virtual PC?
:-) It will run OSXS/Darwin and Linux natively, and you should be able to run any PC OS out there with VPC (just don't expect it to be fast).
It should. VPC works by emulating an Intel processor, so any OS designed designed for it should work. I belive there's documentation with the CD for doing generic floppy intalls; I can look it up for you if you want as I have VPC.
If you like Red Hat you might try LinuxPPC, which is a port of RH.
2) will it run OSX or Darwin
Yes, although I don't belive its supported. Reported it works just fine, but remember that OSXS has no powersaving functions (don't know if you can put it to sleep). i.e. you can't dim the screen, have the HD spin down after being used etc.
3)is it fast?
The Powerbook is, VPC is not. If you got the G3 300 Powerbook it would probably be equal to a 100-150 mhz Pentium. Its fine for compiling and running basic applications, but don't expect to play Quake on it or work on big files with Gimp in VPC.
As for the Powerbooks speed, it will beat the tar out of any PC notebook currently made, because the G3 is a much cooler processor and uses less power, so you can use faster chips. However, the whole thing weighs seven pounds while you can get some damn sexy PC laptops from Sony that weigh less than four.
4) am iwasting my time? (if you think I am, give a better reason than Mac's suck, i don't care)
No. G3 laptops are powerhouses, and have lots of goodies like the option to use two batteries in it, fast ethernet and built in video i/o. The DVD is pretty nice too.
If you want the most powerful and expandable laptop, get a Powerbook. If you are on the road a lot and don't want to hawl around 15 lpbs of gear (puter + accesories), get one of the new ultralight PC laptops.
In the end, Linux is FAR more likely to kill the Mac than Windows.
Never going to happen. Linux is a powerful operating system beats the @#$#@ out of the old Mac OS for networking, stability and multitasking.
However, the Mac OS returns the favor on the end user side. It has a highly polished GUI, the best way for linking applications to documents, and is the only OS where you can install new hardware or software and have it just work 95% of the time.
Once OSX client is out, Apple with have the best of both worlds. I still plan on using Linux though and maybe even FreeBSD on my Macs.
the anti-aliased fonts in the UI (though that probably falls under "It's gorgeous").
;-)
Windows? Bzzt.
X? Bzzt.
Anti-aliased fonts mean I wouldn't have to run my 15" screen at 1280x1024 for the letters to be clear and not jagged.
You're right, Linus is more of a minimalist (I think).
Bill Gates? Definitely a surrealist
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
Yeah, whatever. If they're antialiased, why do they still look jagged on my box?
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
but I figured it out. Searching on MS's Knowledge Base for Antialiased turns up the fact that antialiased fonts are a Microsoft Plus! enhancement!
:-P(and on X they're just not available yet :( )
So unless they're a part of Windows 98, antialiased fonts cost you extra, while on Macs they're free.
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
This will happen to Slashdot too one day.
I've been using my old 520c for RC5 for some time, and it still beats out my friends' PCs with 200MHz+ PII. It seems they have trouble multitasking that advanced OS of theirs.
-- Gordon Worley
My comment refers to multitasking. I am able to do only a few keys a second while running it in the background, while my Windoze friends can't even get RC5 to run without being in the front. This is on a variet of Win32 versions, and none of them can beat me while we're multitasking.
For the uninformed, the 520c runs at 25MHz, despite Apple's insistance that it's 50, using a 68040 without a FPU.
-- Gordon Worley
This is no fun! I've been an Evangelista for the past few years now, and I don't know what I'm gonna do for links and software updates. Sure I get other Mac-oriented mailing list, but none of them are quite as much fun as Evangelist. Now I guess I'll have to actually *visit* Mac Web sites.
To relate, things just aren't going my way lately. Just earlier this month Emu World News closed shop, and now this. I don't know what I'm gonna do if Slashdot (my last, favorite Web site that is still updated) goes away, too. I'll be hacking my Mac without anywhere to take a break at!
-- Gordon Worley
Hahahahahahahaha,
Rare that it will crash the computer, I work at my schools computer lab as a help/consultant, and I have yet to see a mac app crash that dosn't freeze up the whole system, granted that I don't think they have the latest os upgrade, but still, I think that on a PC you have a much better chance of surviving a program crash.
(Note: Most of the lockups occure when people go to save or to print, and they mostly happen using Word, so it could also be proving that if you put crap on a good system, it is still crap. The adobe PS drivers are pretty crappy too. but who am I to say anything, you can't judge a computer on the way it acually performs in real life now can you.)
josh
i have a Mac IIcx running NetBSD 1.3.2, and used it when my PC (running NetBSD as well) crapped out. it ran Emacs almost as fast as my Pentium 100. it was a perfectly usable and respectable machine, and even if it pales in comparison to the K6-2/350 that now sits on the rack, i have to respect that a Mac almost ten years past its prime was still useful.
PC hardware just can't do that.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
Oh my. I can't believe this... I hope they aren't closing the website down! I've used that website as a wonderful jumping point on the web for years. They are an awesome group of people, and probably some of the most dedicated folks I know. I was never a true member of that group, but I believed in the same things as them. I hope to see more of that caliber of people in the future.
--
Matthew Walker
My DNA is Y2K compliant
Matthew Walker
http://www.tweeterdiet.com/ - My Diet Tracking Tool
{shrug} Apple's a business. Whatever we are, here on /., it's not a business! :)
I don't know how many newspaper and magazine columns I've seen in the last couple years in which the writer complains that after giving a positive-but-not-100%-positive review of some Apple product, his/her mailbox filled up with flame of the most vile kind from the EvangeListers. In fairness, I did see a small number of columns in which a writer corrected him/herself after having misdescribed or failed to take note of some Apple product, and thanked EvangeListers. On balance, however, I can't imagine the EL was winning Apple many friends in the press. I'm sure many writers just avoided the topic of Apple because they just couldn't deal. It would have been in Apple's interest to have shut the thing down a long time ago.
how is the Powerbook G3? I'm considering buying one. But I have a few questions first...
1)will it run linux (redhat-intel) on the free copy of Virtual PC?
2) will it run OSX or Darwin
3)is it fast?
4) am iwasting my time? (if you think I am, give a better reason than Mac's suck, i don't care)
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
This sounds good. I'm looking into portable systems, and i will Hopefully get one this summer sometime. I used to use MacOS 7 at school alot, so i got kinda used to the interface. I don't mind lugging the extra weight around (not that i travel alot, just enought to want a portable.) If Ido buy one, i definitly want OSX, because it is Unix based (stable and pretty :-)
I am also looking into the intel laptops, but they aren't "alternative" enough for me, and, besides, i hear its a pain to install linux on them (or other alternative OS's).
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
Multiple monitors and auto poweron/off are high end features?!?
Until you go flying off the road into the ditch and have to stand there waving your arms.
err, that's the top two servers that netcraft was used to determine. what has that got to do with anything precisely?
dave
Some of it is going to be fixed with 8.6 which is coming out in a few weeks. Silly little technical thing, but hey.
As it is, I've had 8.5.1 up and running for about 2 weeks.
That's with photoshop, dreamweaver, and (gasp) IE 4.5
But I never get far enough to lock up, 'cause I have MacsBug ;)
_ ___
_______________________________________________
E crestebior falkoth noogoob? Vas tiel dikos qisqalt.
Grettiudusyl,
ikotHemalisk Yrtuth
I'm really tired of hearing the "poor downtrodden, victimized me" routines. People who play that sympathy card deserve to get nothing. It's a cop-out.
You can bet that those fringe players never contributed anything to their marque, other than (not so) tit-for-tat negative press. Linux people write real code, and if they can't code, they document. That's positive! That's why Linux shines while Apple annoys.
The Linux Thing is a genuine social phenomenon that's really, really good. All those OS'es that rely on "advocacy" to increase visibility will always be also-rans because they spend all their time talking about the weather, but never do anything about it, so to speak. Or to put it another way- "He who has the most code wins."
Of course I could be all wrong and pigs really do fly...
Mr. Natural -- Cat Herder
"Apple is now KICKING ASS. And, no, Slashdot WILL NOT SURPASS the EvangeList in RC5"
Gee, I hate to rain on your hardware superiority parade but if Apple is so busy kicking ass and Mac is such a superior platform then why is www.macaddict.com using Netscape Enterprise 2.0 on an Irix box to run a "Mac" web site? And why for that matter is www.apple.com running Netscape 3.0 on a Solaris box?
/. may have some shortcomings, but at least it practices what it preaches. MintSlice
"Before OS X Server was released, where and when did Apple claim that Macs were suitable for enterprise servers? Hmmmm?'
Don't tell me that www.macaddict.com needs an enterprise server. /. runs on a P2/450 with 512M of RAM. Are you telling me that Apple doesn't make a computer of this calibre?
"Each platform has its own advantages; there's no such thing as a one trick pony in computers.'
Yes there is, they call it Linux ;-]
MintSlice
These two top figures look really suss! Surely, there's got to be some sort of figure fudging going on here. You can't tell me that some magazine site written in swiss gets more visitors that Microshaft, Yahoo or Altavista. In fact the rest of the list reads like sites people actually know and visit (no offense to the swedes).
I'd put my money on these two site artificially inflating their 'request' rate to get on the top of the list. I simply can't believe that microsoft only got 2539 requests but some obscure magazine in sweden got 6868. Those figures simply don't make sense. Does anyone know whether you could use some sort of robot to manipulate those figures?
Oh! And while your having another look check the rest of the list. Mac seems to be there twice! Not a great showing. Especially since if what you're saying is true, then surely Apple themselves would choose to use a Mac using WebSTAR instead of Solaris running Netscape.
MintSlice
unless it a MS app, then your screwed
what kind of voodoo magic have you done to keep IE 4.5 from crashing hourly? I'd like to know cause that form-fill button is a lazy person's dream...
OT, I know. Sor.
Derek Currie is the resident Mac-uber-alles evangelist on alt.destroy.microsoft. Maybe now that they've lost their stomping grounds, this type of ardent troll will become scarcer. Of course, if hornets are forced out of their nest, they tend to become mad... :)