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Sun backs off Open Java Plan
Josh Baugher wrote a line to point us over to this Wired article. Sun has backed off the original plan to have Java submitted as an open standard to the Internation Standards Organization. Sun and the ISO have been arguing over things, because the ISO is a bit less then happy with having one company retain control of the technology.
So Sun is M$ of UN*X? Funny, that's why Solaris is opensrc and free for non comertial use, right?
They are a company, and a damn good one too, they have to make money, don't you ever forget that!
Why do you people complain about everything that isn't GPL'ed and totaly pro Linux?
How would Java fans feel if Microsoft submitted the Windows API to ISO but required ISO to allow them to change the API whenever they felt like it: as they do now?
That's the deal Sun was asking for: ISO rubber stamps the standard, Sun maintains all of the control. What would the point be of the ISO standrdization?
Java is about as open as Visual Basic or any other corporate controlled language/OS. They pretended to go along with the standards commitees when it suited their needs - and when they needed the programmer market share. But, now that they've got critical mass behind Java, they show their true colors.
Make no mistake - the only difference between Sun and Microsoft is that one is a monopoly and the other desperately wants to become one.
They don't have a leg to stand on regarding extensions. Their case hinges on whether the contract allowed MS to *omit* things.
C was standardized a decade ago, and prototypes were obviously a simple, good idea even before that. OTOH, the C++ standard is only about a year old, and for *years* we couldn't use exceptions or templates because no two compilers implemented them quite the same, and many just didn't bother. That mess is still being sorted out. (Does egcs conform yet?)
Java (the language) isn't done. Gosling has admitted that important things (genericity, design by contract) were knowingly left out simply because of time pressure.
I could frankly *care less* if Java is ISO or not.
C++ didn't have a standard for a long time either.
All that matters is that there is a market of vendors providing lots of compatible implementations of the spec.
Java is already there. Sun's control can't take away the fact that there are millions of VMs already out there, and even OSS implementations.
Hell, it's hard to even write Java 1.1 code, let alone Java 1.2 code and depend on people having VMs to run it, so it's not like they are going to yank Java out from under you.
What really bothers me is the moronic attitude on this site that makes one choose technology based on POLITICS.
You same people will decry "corporate politics" and marketing influenced decisions as being bad, but on the other hand, will choose inferior technology as long as it agrees with your politics.
What's supposed to be the outcome *IF* Java was an ISO standard?
Do your really think its going to help you? That it would make Java "open", that you would have a voice?
The ISO is a cathedral beyond cathedrals. It is the VATICAN of the standards world.
Frankly, you'd be far more able to influence Java by sending bug reports to Sun and IBM and participating in mailing lists then trying to talk to the ISO and get something done.
Basically, you people are knee-jerk anti-corporate biggots who don't even take the time to explore the conclusions of your ideas.
Sure. That free Visual Basic port Microsoft provided for Linux sure works _great_ doesn't it?
I can buy (or get free) Java implementations from dozens of companies for many operating systems. There are GPL'd and LGPL'd clones coming that conform to the public Sun standard. Java is absolutely as open as it can be and still be under some kind of central direction as it evolves.
I feel Sun is acting in good faith on this, and that it will take much less time to generate a useful ISO standard for Java than it did for C++.
while companies like WebLogic can sell themselves to BEA for $180Million
thats chump change - yahoo uses perl extensively and could buy bea out of yesterday's pop fund if it wanted.
whats your poitn?
> Consider C++, which is ISO standard. C++ is so
> badly fragmented that many "standard" compilers
> can't even compile compliant C++ code, let
> alone proprietary extensions.
There wasn't a C++ standard until a few months ago. The lack of a standard (and a shifting "proposed" standard) is what caused all the problems. Now that there is a standard, the major compilers are gradually becoming standard compliant. It will take another year or two, though, but the standard will have an effect.
In short, C++ was a bad example -- it was the LACK of a standard that caused all of the divergences in C++ compiler implementations.
> It seems to me that you're suggesting that
> everyone should also ignore C and C++ and Unix
> ten years ago. They were all closed and
> proprietary and changed drastically, right?
As for C and C++, they were never really closed. C++, for example, was part of a genuinely open standards process that no one company dominated. AT&T didn't control everything, and other major companies and individuals had a voice. That is what gave people confidence in C++ before it was standardized -- they knew that the language definition might change, but that the changes wouldn't occur at the whim of just one company.
> HTTP, HTML, ASCII, or TCP/IP
Um, all of them.
The sad thing is that these project will need to
replicate Sun Java bugs to maintain "compatibility". This is why the standard needs
to go to an independant body. For example, can
you please tell me why it is impossible to exec()
a program in a directory other than the one the
java process was started in. This is just one of
many examples of Sun adding a ton of new features
withoput fixing the existing API bugs in Java.
Wrong. The poster you are responding to is right.
Java is a commercial effort to create an ultra-monopoly, by passing an operating system off as a language. While Sun does allow "open source" ports of Java and look-alikes which are compatible
with the Java API, it retains control of the standard to such a degree that these variants will
always be a little behind and cannot full be languages or OS's in their own right for fear of becoming incompatible with Sun's official Java.
Java is very useful especially in corporate intranets - it does its job well there. However, it is an infinitely greater threat to Linux and other free operating systems than MS ever can be.
Bill Gates was right - the goal of Sun is to make
other operating systems a non-issue. They are merely to be used to bootstrap the Java VM, or are to be bypassed completely by loading Java as the native OS if Sun is successful in this scam.
Java is not a pretty language. Its performance has improved greatly and it is now a very capable
language/OS, though , and easier to use than most
standard programming languages. All that would be
great except for one thing - Sun maintains control
of Java and Sun is a commercial company.
With increasing pressure from corporations becoming dependent on Java to use Java rather than native OS's and standard programming languages which are not "owned" by anyone, a bland
homogenization of computing is in the works. Talk about the lowest common denominator. The ultimate goal, really, is for large commercial distributors of "objects" to *rent* these Java components to others through networks, including the internet. In other words, to rent you software which is downloaded and run on your computer through a networked Java OS. This is right back, alomost, to the old mainframe "time sharing" mentality. That's exactly what it is, taken up a level or two in subtlety.
Hell, even Larry Wall who could have had total control over Perl released it under an artistic license. Use perl, python, C, C++ or even Visual Basic. Do not use Java. Sure, it can advance your career in some circles, but at what cost?
Languages should be owned by nobody, but should be organic and evolving systems. Actually they are, unless some company can get away with claims to "owning" a language. Such claims insult decency and common sense.
Look for a stifling of creativity and innovation and a bland, super-corporate approach to software development if and when Sun achieves its goals of supplanting operating systems in which users have some control over their own software. Even Microsoft does not restrict the distribution of third party software which runs on MS machines in the way Sun and its ally IBM plan to with Java.
Sun is not a good thing. If you use and enjoy Linux or any other free unix, or any system which can contribute to the richness of computing in its own way, watch out. Diversity makes allows ongoing evolution of language and life. Sun's Java is death - static uniformity. Don't take the bait no matter how attractive it seems to meet some needs in the near future.
The Linux community has been very naive in regarding MS as the "enemy". MS is merely an upstart, which has had great success but MS too tied to the PC and consumerism. The Sun/IBM cartel has deeper roots in a much more pervasive
corporate mentality. Those of you who are too young to remember the days of mainframe dominance may forget this. But, these old timers are still around, and they are the real masters of the trade. IBM and Sun both have invested heavily in academic research even when it was not to their immediate financial advantage. This is not forgotten in university communities, and neither is the dependability of Sun and IBM products in maintaining and servicing corporate infrastructures which are vital, unlike consumer oriented PC's markets.
I predict an alliance between MS and Free Software in the face of this threat. MS of course will go into decline, but I would not be suprised to see Bill Gates contribute billions to free software, no strings attached, and issue apologies. Regardless of its many faults, MS has been consumer oriented and so is Free Software.
The survival of both MS and Free Software depend on consumers, whether they be businesses or Joe Users or techies, who regard their financial and/or emotional and intellectual investment in computing to be somehow personal. It all started
with hobbiests, and may well end there. Meanwhile the boring, bland corporate machine grinds on.
you have been warned !
http://www.jtc1.org/press/sun_pas.htm
I beg to differ. Linux is easily bested in commercial Unixes like Solaris.
Solaris destroys Linux in thread performance, SMP performance, disk I/O, TCP, and NFS performance.
About the only thing Linux wins on is X/Graphics performance (which is why people have the perception that Solaris is slow)
You people running toy computers on your desktop have no idea how pathetic Linux is when it comes time to run a highly available (HA) system with millions of transactions occuring.
How many FibreChannel controllers does Linux support? How many RAID controllers?
Does it have a log-structured filesystem?
Go spend $10,000 on PC hardware. Then run Solaris x86 vs Linux.
Linux makes a great workgroup server, but it is not scalable compared to the heavy hitters.
...which still runs faster and more reliably than any 90's OS technology available for my Intel box.
Ummm... I think you're a little confused. There are more OS's available for the Intel processor than Just Linux and Windows. Perhaps you've forgotten about QNX, BeOS (a very fast and reliable system, in fact I think it's faster than Linux, especially at multiprocessor activities), *BSD's, etc.
It's comments like this that give Linux users a bad name.
This is cut and pasted from the ISO mailing list:
>You know, this could open up an opportunity for other vendors,
>such as HP or IBM (both with substantial experience in international
>standardization) or even Microsoft, to go through the ISO
>process to produce a separate Java standard. I've always
>believed that a vendor-independent standard for Java was a
>good idea, and if Sun won't play by the rules, maybe others
>will...
>Sounds good.
How does THAT make you feel?
These ISO guys a loosers. Its the good ol' boy network stuck in the 70's. Next ISO will ask Microsoft to create the Linux ISO spec 3.4.98 (looks just like Win98)
From the list:
>You know, this could open up an opportunity for other vendors,
>such as HP or IBM (both with substantial experience in international
>standardization) or even Microsoft, to go through the ISO
>process to produce a separate Java standard. I've always
>believed that a vendor-independent standard for Java was a
>good idea, and if Sun won't play by the rules, maybe others
>will...
Sounds good.
C++ didn't have a company like Sun controlling it either. Anyone could make their own impelementation of C++ that did whatever the heck they wanted. Sun forces all people who want to make implementations of Java to be compliant with their version, which prevents fragmenting like C++ did. They make money, Java doesn't fragment, things may change, but as I have seen, generally for the better. Java doesn't really need a standard right now as long as Sun can keep it on track. I really doubt that Sun will completely change the language over night. You won't wake up one morning to find that Java is suddenly Cobol based. From what I can gather, ISO will not necessarily keep people from making alternative versions of Java not called Java. Could they stop COOL or whatever Microsoft calls it? I really doubt that COOL would affect Java if it were ever made, but Microsoft seems desperate to get rid of Java, and Sun is doing a good job of protecting it. Over all, I support Sun's decision to back out of the ISO process because MS tried to subvert the process, but this is just my oppinion.
What are you, a Sun lawyer?
Say, do you have any evidence of what you are stating, or is it all unsubstantiated bullshit like most of the stuff on Slashdot?
If these things are added, that should not disrupt the language too much. Things will be added, not taken out most likely. There may be a few things that you have to fix, but I seriously doubt there will be another drastic change like the 1.0 vs the 1.1 event model. Even if there is, you will have plenty of time to update. You can still use the 1.0 event model in 1.1, and I think in 1.2 (although I don't know, I hate the 1.0 model) Java should be fairly stable in its current features, but new APIs may be added, for example collections in 1.2. I agree with the original poster: give it more time to evolve. However, you can still write programs in it, since it should be fairly stable after the 1.2 release.
Heh, HTML. Good choice for a standard. How many browser dependant tags are there? About 10 IE ones? There are also some Netscape ones. Does that mean that we will have Microsoft dependant Java, Sun Java, Linux Java, IBM Java, etc...? This defeats one of the purposes of Java doesn't it? Although I would still use Java I imagine, I would hate to have to compile it for 30 different VMs. It would lose one of its major advantages over C++ and other nativly(sp?) compiled languages that way, and that is one of its biggest advantages.
Lots of people here seem to have the oppinion that "If it isn't open source and free, I won't use it!" I don't understand. I know this is a big thing for you people, and the open source movement is important to you, but this doesn't mean that anything that isn't completely open source by your rigid standards is a load of crap. Java is a great language; I like it better than any other language I know (about three or 4, but hey, I have plenty of time to learn more). Java gives a lot of functionality, it is free, it is portable, and it is a lot simpler to use than other languages. I am using C for another project, and every time I add something I get crashes because of some subtle bug. There are even some times I copy and paste code from other parts of the program and it crashes. With Java, I don't have nearly as many of these problems. However, if I am to follow the ideas on this site, Java is controlled in part by Sun, so I should boycott it and spurn all who use it. I am not going to do this, because as someone said in another section, polotics doesn't matter to me as much as some people here. I don't like that MS crams IE down my throat with all the stuff I get from them, but I use their stuff, because I like some of it. I enjoy MS Word, and I know how to use it enough. Don't pull out your propaganda on me, because it won't work. I don't like MS as a whole, in a large part because they were/are trying to get rid of Java, but I am not all "Open source will rule the earth, and we will crush MS and all how stand against us!!" Many people here are though. I cannot blame you too much, it is most likely very important to you, but consider both sides of the issue before you get that "knee-jerk" reaction, to quote the other guy. Not all companies are evil. Sun is protecting Java very well, and I don't think that making it a standard would do much. In all likelyhood, it would slow the process of adding more APIs and elements to the language that Sun wants to do. Well, I am done rambling.
Amen! I am a full time Java consultant who enjoys writing most of my projects in Java (whenever it makes sense). There have been many programming languages that are accepted by the industry to be used by various projects and products, yet they are not open languages. So Sun, concentrate on Hotspot and other technologies that will make Java better and quit trying to standardize a language that doesn't necessarily need a standard. If those of you that use Java see that Sun isn't going in the right direction due to their control of the lang. spec, let them know -- they aren't going to do something stupid that will jeopardize their language's place in the industry. (At least I hope not!)
Remember: C/C++ didn't have an ANSI standard for quite a while, yet it was found to be the best choice for many software projects.
Ack! Time for your medication :-).
[Objective-c] [smalltalk] are worth liking.
I only use C++ to get paid when I don't have any other choice.
+The Original: [Anonymous Coward]
Eric, how many patents encumber MP3 and the MPEG-4 standard? Is there a reference on the web where I could look them up?
BTW: I consider the ISO's policy of allowing patented standards simply awful. The IETF will accept nothing as an internet standard that is encumbered by patents. The ISO working groups are dominated by companies and works for their benefit. There is no point in a "standard" that you are not free to implement unless you pay royalties. That's just my opinion, of course.
I think both Kaffe and Japhar+Classpath are committed to providing a fully compatible Java implementation. This will not extend to replicating JDK bugs possibly, but I think all of those projects are committed to the Java wora concept.
Posted by kenmcneil:
Currently a discussion similar to this, about the implications of Sun's death grip on Java, has begun on the java-linux mailing list. You can find more information about the list here. I encourage anyone who wishes to discuss this further to contribute. A good place to start is with the original post which was titled "Sun Bashing 2" ("Sun Bashing" was about Sun's lack of enthusiasm over Linx) and was posted by myself, kenmcneil@hotmail.com.
Sun is shooting themselves in the foot here.
First, this is going to weaken their case against
Microsoft, at least in terms of Microsoft
developing derivative productions (J++ for example). Secondly, this also will open the
door for others to cleanroom-develop a Java
compatiable language (but not called Java or
necessarily conforming to the Java specs), and
then make derivatives of it, as to further
pollute the Java landscape. At least during
the ISO review process of C++, most of the problems
were with vendor-additions to the language
which were quickly pulled once the standard came
out-- here, we have a possibility of several
different Java-like languages that will never
be sorted out.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Sun managed to get ECMA to ratify a Windows API specification, only to have it blown out of the water by MS when they tried to move it through ISO.
Though MS are claiming that they haven't interfered this time I wouldn't put all the blame on Sun's head.
I want to wait for more facts about this before making (my) judgement - even though my gut reaction is that Sun should stick with their original promise to submit Java to ISO - they have been aproved as a PAS submitter for more then a year now.
Microsoft applied pressure behind the scenes and got ISO to change the rules for PAS submitters so that once the technology had been submitted and approved, all control would be handed over to the ISO subcommittee. Sun, of course, has said from the beginning that they would always maintain control of Java(TM) and would vigorously defend it against all who would try to wrest control from them. As indeed they have.
And now that ISO has changed the PAS rules to force Sun to either relinquish control of Java(TM), or drop the ISO standardization effort, Sun has chosen the path that is consistent with their stated goals of retaining control of the evolution of Java(TM), one of the most important new technologies of the Internet era. Bye bye, ISO.
I agree with Sun's position, especially in light of the fact that the rules were changed out from under them in a sneaky back-room deal.
Java(TM) will continue to evolve. Sun does need to a better job of public relations, and to help more people implement Java(TM) for their platforms of choice. While I agree that a GPL'd implementation would be best, I don't expect Sun to just throw in the towel and give up its control. They are way too 'corporate' for that. From a Sun shareholders perspective, that would be the equivalent of flushing money down the tubes. And lots of it.
"The only good windmill is a tilted windmill."
ISO doesn't like java controlling sun, yet they let Fraunhoffer's PATENTED mpeg compression be an ISO standard?
** Martin
make that "sun controlling java" and continue on your merry way. . .
Has anyone noticed that slashdot now has it's own URL within wired? Anyone have any details on when/why this happened? Just curious...
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Sun is indeed way off base with their feeble efforts to "open" Java(tm). Anyone who reads the Java(tm) licenses can see for themselves that this is just another proprietary pile of dreck.
Way to go ISO!
--Rick
to wonder about Sun's committment to Linux and the Open Source movement.
In fact, the latest (April 99) listing of the software that powers the Internet shows that Linux has increased its percentage from the last quarter by almost exactly the total of the percentages of loss by Sun and the other unicies. Sun's CEO is seeing the writing on the wall: Linux is a threat not only to M$ but to other propriatary software also. They sat back on their 'system' and just raked in cash from exhorbant license fees, without adding to the features or ease of use of their OS, and let the Penguin swim right on by. Now, the Penquin is leading and the Sun is sinking in the West.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Is it just me, or has the amount of FUDmeistering and general anti-anything-open mayhem gone up on /. over the last few weeks?
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I thought one of the reasons to use Linux was so you didn't have to spend huge amounts of cash on hardware to get a fast and reliable machine. Guess I was wrong.
Hardware bigots suck.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
All I said was that on my hardware, Linux runs faster and more reliably than anything else I've tried (Win95, WinNT, Linux, Be, Solaris x86, OS/2), okay? Currently I dual-boot Win95 (NT doesn't like my hardware very much) with MSIE 4/5 and Red Hat 5.1 -- I need IE for testing, and my two authoring apps of choice (Dreamweaver and Flash) aren't available for Linux, and I'm not all that great with Linux, anyway, I started using it mainly because I need to know my way around *nix webservers. I admit I also had some ideological motivations (I support the idea of open source, and I also spend a lot of my spare time testing Mozilla builds), but they aren't my only motivations. I doubt that'll change anytime soon.
So far as programming goes, my current languages of choice are JavaScript and Java (I'm still not very good with Perl), but I try to keep my mind and my options open.
And, as always, YMMV -- use whatever works best for you and enables you to feed your cats and make your car payments.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Sun needs to understand the difference between 'open' and 'closed.' I think they're still having trouble with this. Between the overzealous activity of their legal staff in pursuing possible trademark infringements, their tendency to write somewhat draconian license documents, their semi-open "open source" licensing and this latest business with ISO, it seems to me that Sun just doesn't "get it." Surely they can get past their "control" issues if they're really interested in promulgating Java.
DonkPunch wrote: I'm not sure it's even necessary to GPL Sun's code. But I agree, turning "Java the Standard" over to the community makes a lot of sense.
But c'mon, make it a standard already!
I'm sick of the pseudo-open nature of it. If they're going to hold on to it and keep it non-open, that's their decision. If they're going to open it up to everybody, that's their decision too. But stop with this "it's open - no wait, it's not open" business. There's too much momentum behind it for it to be hijacked now (as Microsoft discovered) by any single entity - even Sun. So stop trying to be an overprotective mommy and let it out into the world.
Java has its place. Please let it go so we can get back to the business of using it.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
Or, more precisely, ASCII is a subset of ISO 646, IIRC.
X.400, or ISO MOTIS as it's also called, however is an ISO standard, which obviously has helped it in its battle against SMTP. I mean since it's an ISO standard you have thousands of fully compatible implementations, right? And nobody ever uses SMTP, which doesn't have this branding? (sarcasm)
For more information, check here:
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/1999/1 6/ns-7955.html
Apparently, Sun is upset because the rules were changed on them. See if you can guess who lobbied for these changes. They have not given up on standards processes in general; They've just given up on MS-ISO.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to call "bullshit" on your post. I like perl, even have fun when using it for work, but you seem to have a pretty unrealistic view of it, especially in relation to the strengths of other languages.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
OK. Please wake up.
:)
Just because Sun isn't going to make Java an ISO standard, doesn't mean that it isn't worth using.
I will point out that Java has been out for a few years now, has been usable for that time, and is constantly improving its base of support and its performance on most platforms.
It is a GOOD OO language with an execelent design philosophy. [ie: its C++ without the stupidity]
The Virtual Machine is an excellent design, and its fundamental security is something to be very pleased with.
Just remember, it might be written by a big evil corporation who sells their OS and hardware for $$$, but Java is a `free' technology which they allow anybody to download and use.
I personally believe that anybody should be able to pick up development software for their machine at no cost, and Java has been an initiative that not only allows this, but allows one to also ensure that their apps will work on other peoples machines.
Also, it might be better if it remains in the hands of Sun, rather than the ISO committee. Whilst sun retains it, we can at least rest safely knowing that Sun is not likely to do anything too stupid to it
Anyhows, thats enough ranting from me for today...
Which explains why no one is writing commercial-grade servers in Perl, while companies like WebLogic can sell themselves to BEA for $180Million, based on the strength of their Pure Java EJB server (and the roughly 1000 enterprise customers they grabbed in about 2 years).
-jon
Remember Amalek.
That's a completely self-defeating attitude. Java is a great language/platform/whatever. Development times are greatly reduced, stupid pointer bugs are a thing of the past, and the class libraries are pretty robust. I could also chant "cross-platform" until I'm blue in the face, but that's not the most important Java feature, IMHO. Making life easier for developers produces better software. The time I used to spend tracking down errant pointers is now spent improving my code. It's that simple.
If you don't want to use a superior tool because you don't like the fact that it's not an officially sanctioned standard, you're making a serious mistake. If you're a professional, your competitors will just use the better tool and beat you. If you hack for the love of code, not using the most elegant tool pretty much defeats the point of writing elegant code. Use the best tool for the job; being a platform/language bigot is boring.
-jon
Java hacker since 1996
Remember Amalek.
How about this, we say screw Java (tm)(c)(all the other (x) things) and design our own..
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Java is still a young language, and even the best designs have problems that become apparent with use. I'd give Java some time to mature under the direction of an entity more nimble than the ISO. Rigorously enforced standards are most important for constraining the future of languages with a lot of extant code (C, Fortran). A young language should be able to make some deprecations and fix some mistakes because the tradeoff of making some amount of JDK1.0 or even 1.1 code incompatible is small compared to the importance of getting it right for the long run.
Sounds like Sun wants ISO to bless Java as an "open" standard, but also wants to retain complete control. It's not much of a standard if Sun can change it unilaterally. Not very open, either.
Ok, I'm posting quickly here. Maybe I need to sit and think about the ramifications of this concept. I reserve the right to change my mind later, but
I LIKE that idea.
My first reaction is that turning Java standards over to the development community will do more to standardize it than ISO certification could. Let it run loose in public for a while then let ISO come along later and rubber-stamp the de facto standard.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
> Java could have ranked up there with perl as
> one of the great languages of the 90's, but now,
> at least in my mind, it has been resigned to bit
> bucket with all of the other closed go-nowhere
> languages that clutter the development > landscape.
Closed?
http://www.classpath.org/
http://www.kaffe.org/
http://www.japhar.org/
http://www.cygnus.com/
I wouldn't call GPL and LGPL "closed".
And yes, where is ISO standard for Perl?
> This is what ISO does. They give you rules for > opening compeition.
I beg to differ. Existence of ISO C++ standard has done _nothing_ to prevent Micro$oft or Inprise from polluting the language with proprietary extensions.
Face it: Reasonably complex Visual C++ apps are about as portable as Visual Basic ones. Hell, VB ones are way more portable, thanks to VB emulators for JVM and Linux.
> You wouldn't have HTTP, HTML, ASCII, or TCP/IP
And which of the above is ISO standard?
>> HTTP, HTML, ASCII, or TCP/IP
> Um, all of them.
Wrong. ASCII.
Somehow I knew that people would find a way to blame Microsoft. Floods, locusts...blame Microsoft. The truth is, Sun is is competitive like any other company and was only giving lip service to the Kumba-ya, sit around the campfire and sing the praises of open source community. It is not like I need Java anyway. It I wanted to write low-level code, I would just use C++, it is a hell of a lot faster. Why does this bitchin' "new" language look some much like a 3GL..oh, but wait Linux is a copy of 1970's OS technology anyway.
The notion that the open source "bazaar" can exist without the "cathedral" of ISO is ridiculous.
Even in the bazaar, vendors have rules for displaying their wares, and rules telling them not to steal lie and cheat.
This is what ISO does. They give you rules for opening compeition.
Certainly the standards process has more legitimacy than open-source development at this point. You wouldn't have HTTP, HTML, ASCII, or TCP/IP if it wasn't for some sort of standardization process. Open standards have served us well for 30 years. Only a moron would throw away that process.
Any notion I had of adopting Java for any project is hereby dropped.
Sun is demonstrating that they are the Microsoft of the Unix world - they will manipulate Java in arbitrary ways to forward their goals, regardless of whether the users see any benefit.
Beware closed languages. This lesson has been learned well by developers who have been bitten by closed 4GL languages in the past, for example (yes, I know Java is not a 4GL).
Java could have ranked up there with perl as one of the great languages of the 90's, but now, at least in my mind, it has been resigned to bit bucket with all of the other closed go-nowhere languages that clutter the development landscape.
The only evidence that Microsoft lobbied for this is Baratz's assertion. You can go and read the ISO e-mail discussions yourself (be patient, slow server in Denmark); The Microsoft people basically kept their mouths shut and now everyone on the list is pissed at Sun.
Baratz needed a scapegoat. Who else would he blame?
LJS
The discussions of the Java Standards Group (JTC 1 SC22) can be found at ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/. Looks like anyone can join the mailing list, and anyone can read themail. ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/926 and up are the messages since Sun formally chickened out of submitting, and the reaction on the list is consistant: what the hell is Sun talking about? There's also general dismissal of Sun's assertions that Microsoft did any lobbying at all on this issue.
You can also see the members of the list at ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/list.