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Sun backs off Open Java Plan
Josh Baugher wrote a line to point us over to this Wired article. Sun has backed off the original plan to have Java submitted as an open standard to the Internation Standards Organization. Sun and the ISO have been arguing over things, because the ISO is a bit less then happy with having one company retain control of the technology.
Amen! I am a full time Java consultant who enjoys writing most of my projects in Java (whenever it makes sense). There have been many programming languages that are accepted by the industry to be used by various projects and products, yet they are not open languages. So Sun, concentrate on Hotspot and other technologies that will make Java better and quit trying to standardize a language that doesn't necessarily need a standard. If those of you that use Java see that Sun isn't going in the right direction due to their control of the lang. spec, let them know -- they aren't going to do something stupid that will jeopardize their language's place in the industry. (At least I hope not!)
Remember: C/C++ didn't have an ANSI standard for quite a while, yet it was found to be the best choice for many software projects.
Ack! Time for your medication :-).
[Objective-c] [smalltalk] are worth liking.
I only use C++ to get paid when I don't have any other choice.
+The Original: [Anonymous Coward]
Eric, how many patents encumber MP3 and the MPEG-4 standard? Is there a reference on the web where I could look them up?
BTW: I consider the ISO's policy of allowing patented standards simply awful. The IETF will accept nothing as an internet standard that is encumbered by patents. The ISO working groups are dominated by companies and works for their benefit. There is no point in a "standard" that you are not free to implement unless you pay royalties. That's just my opinion, of course.
I think both Kaffe and Japhar+Classpath are committed to providing a fully compatible Java implementation. This will not extend to replicating JDK bugs possibly, but I think all of those projects are committed to the Java wora concept.
Posted by kenmcneil:
Currently a discussion similar to this, about the implications of Sun's death grip on Java, has begun on the java-linux mailing list. You can find more information about the list here. I encourage anyone who wishes to discuss this further to contribute. A good place to start is with the original post which was titled "Sun Bashing 2" ("Sun Bashing" was about Sun's lack of enthusiasm over Linx) and was posted by myself, kenmcneil@hotmail.com.
I agree. Who wants to spend a *lot* of time mastering a language that's controlled by some commercial entity, and then have them turn around and change the rules in the middle of the game? It doesn't matter how good the language is, or how many people are using it.
I'll buy proprietary games and applications all day long, but I refuse to let a company (any company, not to single out just Sun) without my best interests in mind control the direction of my career.
TedC
Sun is shooting themselves in the foot here.
First, this is going to weaken their case against
Microsoft, at least in terms of Microsoft
developing derivative productions (J++ for example). Secondly, this also will open the
door for others to cleanroom-develop a Java
compatiable language (but not called Java or
necessarily conforming to the Java specs), and
then make derivatives of it, as to further
pollute the Java landscape. At least during
the ISO review process of C++, most of the problems
were with vendor-additions to the language
which were quickly pulled once the standard came
out-- here, we have a possibility of several
different Java-like languages that will never
be sorted out.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Sun managed to get ECMA to ratify a Windows API specification, only to have it blown out of the water by MS when they tried to move it through ISO.
Though MS are claiming that they haven't interfered this time I wouldn't put all the blame on Sun's head.
I want to wait for more facts about this before making (my) judgement - even though my gut reaction is that Sun should stick with their original promise to submit Java to ISO - they have been aproved as a PAS submitter for more then a year now.
Microsoft applied pressure behind the scenes and got ISO to change the rules for PAS submitters so that once the technology had been submitted and approved, all control would be handed over to the ISO subcommittee. Sun, of course, has said from the beginning that they would always maintain control of Java(TM) and would vigorously defend it against all who would try to wrest control from them. As indeed they have.
And now that ISO has changed the PAS rules to force Sun to either relinquish control of Java(TM), or drop the ISO standardization effort, Sun has chosen the path that is consistent with their stated goals of retaining control of the evolution of Java(TM), one of the most important new technologies of the Internet era. Bye bye, ISO.
I agree with Sun's position, especially in light of the fact that the rules were changed out from under them in a sneaky back-room deal.
Java(TM) will continue to evolve. Sun does need to a better job of public relations, and to help more people implement Java(TM) for their platforms of choice. While I agree that a GPL'd implementation would be best, I don't expect Sun to just throw in the towel and give up its control. They are way too 'corporate' for that. From a Sun shareholders perspective, that would be the equivalent of flushing money down the tubes. And lots of it.
"The only good windmill is a tilted windmill."
ISO doesn't like java controlling sun, yet they let Fraunhoffer's PATENTED mpeg compression be an ISO standard?
** Martin
make that "sun controlling java" and continue on your merry way. . .
Has anyone noticed that slashdot now has it's own URL within wired? Anyone have any details on when/why this happened? Just curious...
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Sun is indeed way off base with their feeble efforts to "open" Java(tm). Anyone who reads the Java(tm) licenses can see for themselves that this is just another proprietary pile of dreck.
Way to go ISO!
--Rick
to wonder about Sun's committment to Linux and the Open Source movement.
In fact, the latest (April 99) listing of the software that powers the Internet shows that Linux has increased its percentage from the last quarter by almost exactly the total of the percentages of loss by Sun and the other unicies. Sun's CEO is seeing the writing on the wall: Linux is a threat not only to M$ but to other propriatary software also. They sat back on their 'system' and just raked in cash from exhorbant license fees, without adding to the features or ease of use of their OS, and let the Penguin swim right on by. Now, the Penquin is leading and the Sun is sinking in the West.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Is it just me, or has the amount of FUDmeistering and general anti-anything-open mayhem gone up on /. over the last few weeks?
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I thought one of the reasons to use Linux was so you didn't have to spend huge amounts of cash on hardware to get a fast and reliable machine. Guess I was wrong.
Hardware bigots suck.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
All I said was that on my hardware, Linux runs faster and more reliably than anything else I've tried (Win95, WinNT, Linux, Be, Solaris x86, OS/2), okay? Currently I dual-boot Win95 (NT doesn't like my hardware very much) with MSIE 4/5 and Red Hat 5.1 -- I need IE for testing, and my two authoring apps of choice (Dreamweaver and Flash) aren't available for Linux, and I'm not all that great with Linux, anyway, I started using it mainly because I need to know my way around *nix webservers. I admit I also had some ideological motivations (I support the idea of open source, and I also spend a lot of my spare time testing Mozilla builds), but they aren't my only motivations. I doubt that'll change anytime soon.
So far as programming goes, my current languages of choice are JavaScript and Java (I'm still not very good with Perl), but I try to keep my mind and my options open.
And, as always, YMMV -- use whatever works best for you and enables you to feed your cats and make your car payments.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Sun needs to understand the difference between 'open' and 'closed.' I think they're still having trouble with this. Between the overzealous activity of their legal staff in pursuing possible trademark infringements, their tendency to write somewhat draconian license documents, their semi-open "open source" licensing and this latest business with ISO, it seems to me that Sun just doesn't "get it." Surely they can get past their "control" issues if they're really interested in promulgating Java.
DonkPunch wrote: I'm not sure it's even necessary to GPL Sun's code. But I agree, turning "Java the Standard" over to the community makes a lot of sense.
But c'mon, make it a standard already!
I'm sick of the pseudo-open nature of it. If they're going to hold on to it and keep it non-open, that's their decision. If they're going to open it up to everybody, that's their decision too. But stop with this "it's open - no wait, it's not open" business. There's too much momentum behind it for it to be hijacked now (as Microsoft discovered) by any single entity - even Sun. So stop trying to be an overprotective mommy and let it out into the world.
Java has its place. Please let it go so we can get back to the business of using it.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
Or, more precisely, ASCII is a subset of ISO 646, IIRC.
X.400, or ISO MOTIS as it's also called, however is an ISO standard, which obviously has helped it in its battle against SMTP. I mean since it's an ISO standard you have thousands of fully compatible implementations, right? And nobody ever uses SMTP, which doesn't have this branding? (sarcasm)
For more information, check here:
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/1999/1 6/ns-7955.html
Apparently, Sun is upset because the rules were changed on them. See if you can guess who lobbied for these changes. They have not given up on standards processes in general; They've just given up on MS-ISO.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to call "bullshit" on your post. I like perl, even have fun when using it for work, but you seem to have a pretty unrealistic view of it, especially in relation to the strengths of other languages.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
OK. Please wake up.
:)
Just because Sun isn't going to make Java an ISO standard, doesn't mean that it isn't worth using.
I will point out that Java has been out for a few years now, has been usable for that time, and is constantly improving its base of support and its performance on most platforms.
It is a GOOD OO language with an execelent design philosophy. [ie: its C++ without the stupidity]
The Virtual Machine is an excellent design, and its fundamental security is something to be very pleased with.
Just remember, it might be written by a big evil corporation who sells their OS and hardware for $$$, but Java is a `free' technology which they allow anybody to download and use.
I personally believe that anybody should be able to pick up development software for their machine at no cost, and Java has been an initiative that not only allows this, but allows one to also ensure that their apps will work on other peoples machines.
Also, it might be better if it remains in the hands of Sun, rather than the ISO committee. Whilst sun retains it, we can at least rest safely knowing that Sun is not likely to do anything too stupid to it
Anyhows, thats enough ranting from me for today...
Which explains why no one is writing commercial-grade servers in Perl, while companies like WebLogic can sell themselves to BEA for $180Million, based on the strength of their Pure Java EJB server (and the roughly 1000 enterprise customers they grabbed in about 2 years).
-jon
Remember Amalek.
That's a completely self-defeating attitude. Java is a great language/platform/whatever. Development times are greatly reduced, stupid pointer bugs are a thing of the past, and the class libraries are pretty robust. I could also chant "cross-platform" until I'm blue in the face, but that's not the most important Java feature, IMHO. Making life easier for developers produces better software. The time I used to spend tracking down errant pointers is now spent improving my code. It's that simple.
If you don't want to use a superior tool because you don't like the fact that it's not an officially sanctioned standard, you're making a serious mistake. If you're a professional, your competitors will just use the better tool and beat you. If you hack for the love of code, not using the most elegant tool pretty much defeats the point of writing elegant code. Use the best tool for the job; being a platform/language bigot is boring.
-jon
Java hacker since 1996
Remember Amalek.
Java is still a young language, and even the best designs have problems that become apparent with use. I'd give Java some time to mature under the direction of an entity more nimble than the ISO. Rigorously enforced standards are most important for constraining the future of languages with a lot of extant code (C, Fortran). A young language should be able to make some deprecations and fix some mistakes because the tradeoff of making some amount of JDK1.0 or even 1.1 code incompatible is small compared to the importance of getting it right for the long run.
Sounds like Sun wants ISO to bless Java as an "open" standard, but also wants to retain complete control. It's not much of a standard if Sun can change it unilaterally. Not very open, either.
Ok, I'm posting quickly here. Maybe I need to sit and think about the ramifications of this concept. I reserve the right to change my mind later, but
I LIKE that idea.
My first reaction is that turning Java standards over to the development community will do more to standardize it than ISO certification could. Let it run loose in public for a while then let ISO come along later and rubber-stamp the de facto standard.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
> Java could have ranked up there with perl as
> one of the great languages of the 90's, but now,
> at least in my mind, it has been resigned to bit
> bucket with all of the other closed go-nowhere
> languages that clutter the development > landscape.
Closed?
http://www.classpath.org/
http://www.kaffe.org/
http://www.japhar.org/
http://www.cygnus.com/
I wouldn't call GPL and LGPL "closed".
And yes, where is ISO standard for Perl?
> This is what ISO does. They give you rules for > opening compeition.
I beg to differ. Existence of ISO C++ standard has done _nothing_ to prevent Micro$oft or Inprise from polluting the language with proprietary extensions.
Face it: Reasonably complex Visual C++ apps are about as portable as Visual Basic ones. Hell, VB ones are way more portable, thanks to VB emulators for JVM and Linux.
> You wouldn't have HTTP, HTML, ASCII, or TCP/IP
And which of the above is ISO standard?
"""
I agree. Who wants to spend a *lot* of time mastering a language that's controlled by some commercial entity, and then have them turn around and change the rules in the middle of the game? It doesn't matter how good the language is, or how many people are using it.
"""
This could be said of Unix twenty years ago.
>> HTTP, HTML, ASCII, or TCP/IP
> Um, all of them.
Wrong. ASCII.
Somehow I knew that people would find a way to blame Microsoft. Floods, locusts...blame Microsoft. The truth is, Sun is is competitive like any other company and was only giving lip service to the Kumba-ya, sit around the campfire and sing the praises of open source community. It is not like I need Java anyway. It I wanted to write low-level code, I would just use C++, it is a hell of a lot faster. Why does this bitchin' "new" language look some much like a 3GL..oh, but wait Linux is a copy of 1970's OS technology anyway.
I could care less about whether Slolaris is open source. I'm not a GPL groupie either, but any language you choose to adopt in the long haul had bette be open.
This is a practical consideration. Look at the history of programming and see what closed languages have stood the test of time.
If you're a developer, these things should matter to you.
It doesn't sound like you are, so continue your worship of McNealy and co.
The notion that the open source "bazaar" can exist without the "cathedral" of ISO is ridiculous.
Even in the bazaar, vendors have rules for displaying their wares, and rules telling them not to steal lie and cheat.
This is what ISO does. They give you rules for opening compeition.
Certainly the standards process has more legitimacy than open-source development at this point. You wouldn't have HTTP, HTML, ASCII, or TCP/IP if it wasn't for some sort of standardization process. Open standards have served us well for 30 years. Only a moron would throw away that process.
Any notion I had of adopting Java for any project is hereby dropped.
Sun is demonstrating that they are the Microsoft of the Unix world - they will manipulate Java in arbitrary ways to forward their goals, regardless of whether the users see any benefit.
Beware closed languages. This lesson has been learned well by developers who have been bitten by closed 4GL languages in the past, for example (yes, I know Java is not a 4GL).
Java could have ranked up there with perl as one of the great languages of the 90's, but now, at least in my mind, it has been resigned to bit bucket with all of the other closed go-nowhere languages that clutter the development landscape.
The only evidence that Microsoft lobbied for this is Baratz's assertion. You can go and read the ISO e-mail discussions yourself (be patient, slow server in Denmark); The Microsoft people basically kept their mouths shut and now everyone on the list is pissed at Sun.
Baratz needed a scapegoat. Who else would he blame?
LJS
The discussions of the Java Standards Group (JTC 1 SC22) can be found at ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/. Looks like anyone can join the mailing list, and anyone can read themail. ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/926 and up are the messages since Sun formally chickened out of submitting, and the reaction on the list is consistant: what the hell is Sun talking about? There's also general dismissal of Sun's assertions that Microsoft did any lobbying at all on this issue.
You can also see the members of the list at ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/list.