Slashdot Mirror
John Carmack on Linux
Jburkholder writes
"John Carmack
[?]
has
some complimentary things to say about recent Linux developments, including the
lastest Gnome and Matrox open-source drivers. Here's the best quote: -The cool part is that this driver is completely open source. I downloaded
the project code, browsed through it a bit, and changed
two lines of code to
fix the bug. That RULES. -" Comments on the new GLX stuff,
CodeWarrior for Linux, and other stuff. Worth a quick read.
I think the moderation has gone too far by putting "criteria" like 'insightfull', or 'interesting', 'redundant', 'off topic', 'flame bait'... etc....
this is not innocent lebeling anymore, but seriously becoming implicit censorship!
just stick with point "system", and leave it at that. no need to make editorial comment.
If this system continues, Slashdot will become dry , self serving site for OSS, since all critic will be labeled as "flame bait" and all off the cuff witty humor will be labeled as "off topic"
This is not promoting "quality posting" but only "delusion"
WARNING, the health of a community is reflected on how it cares for the dissenting voice.
...that Carmack will one day see the light and use Emacs instead! :^)
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
I think that KDE resembles OS2 the most.
I think KDE was developed to look like OS2/warp,
if I recall correctly.
Win probably nicked quite a lot from OS2.
I'm sure you're not seeing my point =)
:P ?
The original poster's elitism is as follows: Linux was special, different, geeky, and that is why he used it.
But I got into Linux because it was a geek's world.
Now it is becoming mainstream and accepted, and in doing so, it loses it's appeal. He wants it to be geeky, and I implied, technical, arcane, difficult, and hard to use, thus always remaining a tool of geeks.
So is this the future of Linux? Or will it remaine something that only smartguys like us use
Unless he's joking, he wants to separate Linux for use only by 'smartguys' and not by 'idiots'. That is elitism. A racist discriminates based on skin color, while an elitist discriminates based on some measure of status, ability, or talent.
So it's elitism to come from another OS, and try to change it to make it what you've came from.
This is not at all what the original poster is complaining about, except for his little bit about Linux being adopted by NT people; he doesn't want it to become easier to use, to become useable by 'idiots'. It's elitism to not want others to use your OS because their not smart enough, or something like that.
So if I changed over to the Mac and then complained that it didn't do the command line like my previous OS, and the Mac users complained about it, would they be elitist?
I assume your statement, clearly read, is as follows: You switch over to MacOS, and don't like the command line, compared to Linux or another OS. You complaing about the command line, and then the Mac users complained about you.
That's not elitism: Elitism would be the case if Mac users complained about the addition of a command line to their OS, on the basis that such an addition would pollute their user interface and attract *nix geeks and nerds to *their* OS. For one thing, elitism in any situation is wrong, belief that something should only be allowed and used by *our* group and not by *your* group, on whatever basis *our* and *your* is divided. For the Linux poster, it's about intelligence and geekiness; for the hypothetical Mac people, it would be about the holiness of their UI and the mindset of using MacOS *without* a command line.
Linux shouldn't pretend to be anything but itself for to be otherwise would be denying its own identity.
The question is, what identity are you talking about. Are you denying Linux the chance and potential of growth? Nothing stays the same, and people are currently working to improve it. Sure, you may not agree that adding a UI, a desktop environment, a simple installer, etc, are improvements, but with OS you're free to do your own work to improve it.
What is it's identity?
I would say it's open and free. It's about power *with* flexibility, and it's about being able to do what you want to do. If something doesn't perform or work, open up the source, tinker and code so that it does work.
Adding useability and UI and such is just the next step of Linux's evolution in being both powerful and flexible. Some users *don't* care about learning about the OS. Is that a crime? Why should they care about the OS, when all they want to do is use it? It is powerful and it is flexible, so it will attract a lot of people. Are you also of the belief that only those who learn the OS should use it?
It would be a waste if only people who could learn the OS should use Linux, because it is so powerful, flexible, reliable, and stable. It would do the world a great disservice if people couldn't use it as a viable alternative to M$ or Solaris or IRIX because of it's great strengths, and if it were hampered by a constituency who thought it should not be polluted so others would be allowed to use it.
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Exactly! That's where Linux will more than likely go, tho probably more subtle than "standard" and "geek" dialog box. Personally, i'm on both sides. If a GUI prog won;t do it right, I go to shell to do it, assuming I already know how the UI does it.
Really, more like "Casual" and "3133+"...
Blessed Be! --"LEVIATHAN"
MacOS X has support for 2 Button mices
My opinion: I'm willing to accept closed drivers to extremely hi-end cards, particularily 3D hardware. In this space, the intelectual property is truely all these companies have. Giving away the register specs will reveal way too much detail on how they're doing things.
Although Open processes are often superior to closed, they are not always. 3D accelerated hardware solutions involve hardware, and thus a whole new area of hard costs have to be managed which OSS projects don't tend to deal with well.
But then, I run Word Perfect from time to time too, and I've never been given the chance to look at it's source either.
Answer from the perspective of someone working on the project:
Actually both of you are correct. John Changed something in both places. He submitted a few patches to fix bugs in the GLX driver (The main one being that our texture manager was broken and using a MRU decision to throw a texture out, not the correct LRU). From what his plan says he also made a change within the quake 3 source to fix an incorrect assumption.
For those non programmer types: MRU and LRU are most recently used and least recently used respectively.
He is a nice addition to the project b/c he brings many years of experience that most if not all of the developer's can't match. Even though our code is doing well and maturing fast, I think a few of these bugs would have gone unfound for prolly at least 2-4 wks more then with him looking at the source.
-Jeff
I thought you were talking about the shortcut arrows for a minute, but you must've been talking about the resize arrows. If they are just like Windows' arrows, I didn't really notice. They seem to be drawn to match enlightenment's default mouse pointer, and that default mouse pointer doesn't look like anything in Windows at all.
Not a complaint, but a question...
Can anyone explain how some of this moderation is working?
I'm sorry if I'm taking advantage of a highly ranked post to get seen =) Hi moderators!
Anyway, some of my posts on this thread are like 2s and 3s, but attached as responses to -1s; the really odd thing is that the -1s dissapear, but the 3s doesn't, something having to do with highlight in overflow mode or something?
I mean, the 3 is high enough not to get compressed into the title, and is displayed in its entirety... but it's weird that the original post got moderated down to nothing. Is this just a side effect of highlighting good posts conflicting with moderating a comment down below threshold levels?
I wonder how the Slashdot code decides to order the comments in that case... the 3 point post obviously doesn't float up towards the rest of the 3s in the thread, constrained as it is by a parent with a -1 ranking...
Wanna see? Try this link:
My post
It doesn't 'quite' work; remove the extra space in the link between '3&mode' and '=thread&pid'
3&mode =thread&pid=549#568
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
it looks surprising to me that a programmer guy like Carmack - who supposedly is very fast at his keys - cares about those point-and-click thingies that much. I mean RMS doesnt even seem to know what a mouse is :]
I actually don't know where they come from, these Linux coders...
Here's the question then, where do they come from now? Where are they going to go, that they will disappear?
Has the landscape changed such that Open Source coders have stopped being born?
Do they come off of work, disgruntled and unhappy with their job programming for something really stupid, and in their recreational time code something wonderful like Linux? Or are they more self serving, and do it so they can get some functionality to their non M$ OS? Or something else? Something in between?
Unless someone starts a school who's emphasis is CS and Open Source...
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
How refreshing. Intelligent comments =)
You are right that at the moment, the core of Linux and OSS are it's contributors and developers, but very soon secondary effects due to growing user base will kick in as well:hardware and software support from commercial entities looking to make a profit from the user base. 3dfx and Nvidia releasing source and specs for their 3dcards to be used under linux, Apple releasing server code, and hopefully some client stuff too, for their Quicktime software, SGI releasing source for their JFS, while also supporting Linux on their sparkly new shiny Visual PCs. Yes, for Linux to remain it's own 'product', it cannot rely on the agenda of companies who invest in it, but I don't think that was the intent of the original post either.
The original poster was complaining about Linux losing it's geekiness and becoming too mainstream for his/her taste.
You raise good points, though. If Linux is not maintained by people, what will happen to it? I'm pretty sure that as long as it's open source and as long as M$ or Apple does not offer a much superior OS and starts to open source their own software, there will always be disgruntled users who want things to 'work'.
I don't really think Linux is about elitist you vs me geeky vs mainstream users. It's about people who want to tinker and play with their OS, who want to do things, but are constrained by the conventional OSes, or people who need things, and can easily add them because Linux is open source. As long as Linux remains strong in these areas, I don't see it fading anytime soon.
One real competitor, actually, may be MacOSX, with it's BSD core; especially if it gets synched with one of the open source BSDs, then there is an alternative OS for people to tinker and play with, especially if Apple makes public or open the APIs to interface with the PPC hardware and UI...
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
I'm in about the same boat; I'd like to get a TNT2, but NVIDIA won't even answer my email, so I have to assume that there is nothing of significance forthcoming.
Your best bet is a Voodoo3 2000 at this point. They're cheap, fast, and the image quality isn't as bad as the competition would have us believe. In fact, I suspect that most of the people dissing the V3 haven't even seen one. There are Q3 test beta drivers on the 3dfx web site.
The G200 is not really a good alternative; it lags badly even in Windows playing Q3 test. See http://idsoftware.com/bwh/ for benchmarks. The only hope here is that Matrix releases specs to the G400, including the setup engine.
AC #967
BTW, I also have a RIVA 128, and according to Brian Hook this card is UGLY in Q3, so it's no great loss.
...as pre-order items. Saw a stack (~4-5) of the Quake I boxed set
on the store shelves at CompUSA in Lewisville, TX. The Quake II set's
not shown itself yet. By the way, the Lewisville location seems to be
the only store on the Dallas side of the DFW metro area carrying any
of the games on the shelves at this point.
On a slightly off-topic subject. Civ:CTP has yet to show anywhere
on the store shelves in the brick and mortar stores in the Dallas area. I'm
a little dismayed at this turn of events considering that it's now 4 weeks
since they shipped the stuff to the world.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
All three have "Start" menus. I can't tell you how many times I've heard WinXX and KDE cursed over that thing, and now all three have it.
I can't tell you how many times KDE and WinXX have been cursed over their file manglers,...and now all three have just about the same thing, interface-wise (though Exploder sucks rocks in comparison to gmc & kfm).
Granted, KDE is much less unabashed about its roots, interface-wise, in Windows, but as far as I'm concerned the three are about equivalent.
And take a look at the default desktop for RH6 if you want to see something "reminiscent" of Windows.
Window Maker & AfterStep are genuinely different in interface from Windows; I'm not even sure you could make them look like Windows without adding at least the GNOME/KDE panel to them.
My random opinion,
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
This may sound like a miserly CLI whine, but I've just finished reading Neal Stephenson's essay/rant about OS dev, and I'm suspicous about any "GUI for everyone" that isn't designed from the ground up as part of the OS. I think to really have a successful newbie GUI, it needs to be a OS that is intentionally non-complex. Try as you like, I somehow doubt that people will ever be able to successfully get Linux to fit into a truly simple, yet usable design. There are just too many features. Now, that said, using the Linux kernel and X as the core of a simple GUI oriented OS might not be a bad idea (see Windows CE and PalmOS for examples of this.., but I think it should be considered a seperate goal than making a good powerful GUI.
There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
Guys, any news about support for NVidia Riva128/TNT chipsets? Any news at all? I really would not care whether it is open source or closed source driver. All I want is ANY driver that works. I want to play Q3 test in Linux with my STB Velocity 128 (riva128) card in Linux....
This is a common thing -- people equate Red Hat with Linux. Since GNOME is the default with RH (KDE is not installed unless you select it), and the RH manual covers GNOME, this is what a new Linux user is going to see.
He might not have even heard of KDE.
Even the Microsoft guy who wrote the Halloween document realized how cool it was to fix minor bugs yourself, rather than whining and waiting for the next release.
Okay =)
I guess I'm at fault for misinterpreting. Apologies!
It really is up to the individual what desktop UI/environment is usable and what is not, so the original poster's disagreement does not mean anything to John's view that Gnome in Red Hat 6.0 is... a valid alternative to commercial desktop environments.
I'm sure Gnome users think it's a valid desktop environment as well =)
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Well... considering the last two games he's developed/almost developed are both best played with a mouse (Quake and Quake 2), is it really surprising? :-)
Unlike Unix, the Windows NT cmd shell does not require quotes around file names with spaces. For example, the following works:
C:\> cd program files
C:\Program Files>
cpeterso
You missed the whole point.
I still am =)
So what was the point?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Disagree about what? That he likes Gnome and feels its almost at the useable level for him?
Who are you to judge which GUI/environment is best suited for The Man(tm)?
I mean, you might as well take offense at the fact that he installs Linux every year, feels it is not good enough, and continues using WinNT/NeXTStep whatever. Or that he seriously disses VI and emacs, for CodeWarrior(despite bugs), etc.
If one really wanted to delve deeply, one could think his next development platform might be MacOSX Server/Client; NeXTStep environment, *honest* OpenGL support from the vendor, classic refined UI, CodeWarrior(native!), and G4 with Altivec coming soon.
But that is a guess, and not grounded in any fact =)
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
>Another slightly off topic question, why would someone choose a card that can render at > 100 frames per second if their monitor runs 60 or 70 Hz?
Hehe. For one: Bragging rights. And for two: future expandability: that card will be good in future games that are more demanding. Other than that, no reasons really. One thing I REALLY don't understand is people actually PLAYING games w/ V-SYNC off. That option is good for benchmarking, but it doesn't seem to have a use otherwise other than causing tearing in the picture. If your card is rendering faster than the monitor can refresh, having the card output frames faster than the monitor can reproduce them does no good at all.
I was just lookin' through the sunday ads from the paper (CompUSA, Computer City, Best Buy, etc) and I found that id is selling quake and quake 2 for linux packaged now..
"Short, tall, fat, skinny, from the highest king to the lowest man, everyone uses the potty." - Brak
An excellent resource for information is the 3dfx.glide.linux news group, available on the news server news.3dfx.com. There are lots of messages from people detailing how to get things running on the various distributions and versions.
Enjoy -- it's pretty sweet!!!
OR anything 3d for that matter, I've been trying to get this running for over 100 hours :(. I compiled mesa for 3dfx converted all the v3 glide rpm's to debs installed everything I was sure all the librarys and symlinks were right. But all I get id software mode gl Quake 3 at about 1 frame per hour :~(. Can someone write a mini HOWTO on this? I've never had a 3d card before and I've lost the plot :).
Peace
please moderators. please think before you click the "moderate" button. this is flamebait? argh.
I really hope that the G400 can be used (when it's released) with the G200 drivers. That would be the final push for dumping my old V2 card. Low level drivers should be open sourced. Pronto!
If you're the same AC that responded to my post You're missing the point, you aren't very helpful...
I fail to see what it is you want me/us/others to see in your posts... Reading it slowly... just... takes... longer... to... read...
There =) Read it again, slowly.
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Interesting you should say that.
" I think OSS is great, but it's a means to an end for the majority of end-users like me"
MS Produced software that could do better than its competition under windows because some of the API was closed to them. This was fine as far as the consumer was concerned because the "ends mattered more than the means" people got what they wanted.
Now look at the mess that has come about. Do you really want to start that "ball of wax" all over again, but with Linux?
The long-term benefits of OSS outweight the *short-term* benefits of closed.
i expect he did know this, but theres a difference betweek "knowing" or being told something and experiencing it.
John Carmack's plan is probably read by more people than slashdot (albiet often via quake news sites) so its good propaganda.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
If closed-source drivers come out that outperform open-source drivers, which one do you think 99% of the gamers out there will use? Now, don't misunderstand, I think OSS is great, but it's a means to an end for the majority of end-users like me. The goal is to produce the greatest software, and I don't care how you get there, OSS or closed, I just want it to be the best.
This is just FUD made up by corporations to have an excuse for not releasing specs. SCSI controllers are complex, would you accept a proprietary driver for that? Reverse engineering a 3d card with full specs would take longer than it is worth, by the time they figure it out it would already be obsolete. I think the problem is the flood of anything-but-microsoft people coming to linux who dont really care if its opensource or not, they just want to play quake. You should not lose sight of the fact that opensource is what sets linux apart, 3d drivers are no exception.
And we will be getting WARP support eventually, I think they are just waiting to see how well we do with what we have now...
If you actually read what johnc had to say:
"Overall, its still not as smooth, consistant, or complete as windows or the mac, but is does have its strong points, and things seem to be progressing quite rapidly."
and
"Its still not something you would give to a purely casual computer user, but I won't be surprised if even that changes in a couple years."
I think it's obvious he'd be quite impressed with KDE.
i keep hearning rumors that nvidia will support
3d for linux, or even that is has happend,
supposedly weeks ago. i have yet to see anything
resembling proof of this. alot of rumors are
spread by wishfull thinking.
we still have sgi and for those that can deal
with the limitations, 3dfx.
Because it's a UNIX variant. Duh.
Blar.
It appears that he figured out that his assumption was wrong because he had access to the driver sources and could see that it was his code, not the OpenGL code, that was incorrect. So, not only do Linux users benefit from the Open Source drivers (the textures that were broken before are working now), but all gamers will benefit. He says in his plan that the fix will improve performance on most cards by a couple of percentage points...
Just another reason why Operating Systems and drivers benefit from being Open Source.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. -- Oscar Wilde
It seems to me that more and more people dislike a GUI just because it looks like Windows, without giving any good reasons. That's just Windows-bashing, very unprofessional. I admit I like Gnome better than KDE, but though Windows sucks like hell from a technical/OS viewpoint, the Windows GUI actually has some very good things like the start-menu/taskbar and the filemanager amongst others.
And that's probably the reason why Gnome, KDE, gmc, kfm, etc. have borrowed these features from Windows. Why abandon a good idea, just because M$ thought of it first?
see my post above (subject line:wishfull thinking)
if they did it would probably be for tnt2.
(or tnt3?)
maybe when xfree86-4.0 ships?
Let me tell you a little story about my little brother playing Quake2:
:). No more lockups. No more awkward scripts that require open and switchto to be setuid root.
He plays on a Redhat 6 machine, dual p3 450, 128 mb ram. He used to play on a Voodoo2 card. It would freeze. And I mean freeze BAD. Sometimes you could telnet in and "killall quake2" to fix things, but sometimes the machine would be locked up so bad YOU COULDN'T EVEN DO THAT! So, we both got pretty sick of this. We go to the Fry's in Tempe and buy a Mystique G200 AGP 8MB. As soon as I put the card in, install the g200-glx rpm, and switch quake2 over to ref_glx.so, we get NO PROBLEMS (other than the mouse not working, but that's quake2's fault
Let me sum it up for you:
voodoo2: weird, unpredictable lockups. retarded scripts.
g200: works perfectly (even after the driver has only been in development a very short time). no retarded scripts. no setuid open and switchto.
Any questions?
what are you talking about. the arrows are a function of the window manager. gnome doesn't have a window manager. enlightenment and icewm go with gnome the best. I don't know about icewm but enlightenment's cursors are completly themable. which means that you can change them to what ever you want. You can even use color cursors. The default enlightenment theme is so far away from anything that has ever come previously you cant say it copies anything. Kde doesn't have this.
It has been statistically shown that helmets increase the risk of head injury.
If the post was moderated *down* to 0, why does it say "Interesting"?
It was moderated to -1 and then back up to zero by someone who thought it was Interesting.
dylan_-
--
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
the mouse thing is due to something with gpm.
turn off gpm, restart X and it should work.
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
Remember that RMS is the one with the serious case of carpal tunnel syndrome ... too much Emacs is bad for your hands!
I suspect he understands that perfectly, he *is* somewhat of a genius. ;-)
I don't think that this was a statement of discovery, Carmack seems to always be very open and honest in his communications (see the self-depricating (sp?) passage about a mis-assumption he made for 3 years). The way I read this is he is more expressing his delight at having *experienced* the magic of open source.
The *really* neat thing about this is that all the 3D-gamers who follow Carmack like some messiah will read this and maybe understand a little about what the whole linux/open-source concept it about.
Cheers, John -- we lub ya!
It's 1:25 am, do you know were your coder is? :)
Well coders stop coding for various reasons, some within their control, some not. The end effect on the people who depend on their output is the same.
My points is not that coders will stop( baring unforseen circumstances) but to emphasize a couple of things that the "I don't know, but I got the benefits" crowd seems to forget.
1) Linux wasn't written to demolish MS or any other company.
2) The present crop of users enjoy what they enjoy because others who *do* know the ins and outs of code worked to bring it about. IMHO quite a few of the present crop of users (many from the MS world) neither understand Linux(history,philosaphy,etc) nor wish to make the attempt. Their understanding goes no further than the outside of the
distribution box. There was a person who posted only about a day or two ago about hoping someone else would come up with the solution to a problem so he wouldn't have to. You multiply that sentiment enough times and you begin to see why people start worrying. Linux thrives on people scratching their itches, not passing the buck.
3) Some of the statements you made above may indicate reasons why someone may (attempt) to start coding for OSS but that also means they must be in possession (or can readily aquire) the skills needed to code[and have the desire to]. The "I don't want to know, but I got the benefits" crowd may have an itch but they want to pass the responsability to scratch it to others. That's not really fair now is it? A gift culture works best when all the beneficiaries contribute. Not when some work while some benefit.
Sorry about the rambling it's late
---
...
Another slightly off topic question, why would someone choose a card that can render at > 100 frames per second if their monitor runs 60 or 70 Hz?
---
That's the Question You're Not Supposed To Ask! Ignore the man behind the curtain!
I've never understood it myself
I'm looking forward to trying out the G200 GLX module on my G200 - But not at work, we're they're making me remove Linux because "It's a security risk". Gaaaargh.
-- Post No Gravy
Yeah, and how long has the 3dfx drivers for linux been in development? 2 years maybe? The g200 drivers have been in development for about 3 months now, and we dont even have direct rendering OR DMA implemented yet, both of which will be done with Precision Insight gets their driver infrastructure finished.
I cannot believe that people are actually defending proprietary drivers here, wouldn't carmack be pimping glide if thought it was that great? well, he isn't... opensource is the way..
..Nice to see Carmack enjoy the fruits of the open source movement. Any publicity is good publicity in our case.
;)
Now, if only theyde use Propaganda..
Bowie J. Poag
Lets see, if 3dfx had released Open Source drivers with their original VooDoo series chipset, and an intrepid engineer at spent a whole year deciphering and tinkering, even a year later, things could be learned and used against 3dfx; look how long they've used the same basic components(V, VRush, V2, VBanshee, V3), if they had released info someone could have used it against them, if only to write really excellent Glide wrappers.
Of course this also brings into the argument open and proprietary standards and APIs, patents, IP, etc.
Or if Matrox had released source with the G200, initially, DualBus stuff may have been copied or leaked into other hardware, to compete directly against the G400.
Hardware cycles are really not that far off from a two and a half years; we get incremental increases in between(riva -> riva ZX, then TNT, TNT2, G200, G400, V->V2, VB->V3, etc).
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Voodoo3 may not be as bad in picture quality as people say, but there are a few reasons why I just won't buy from them:
1) Not even the OPTION for 32 bit rendering. All of the competition allows you to at least TRY 32 bit, even if it is a "frame rate killer." (Enter ATI Rage 128 to show that it really isn't).32 Bit output is important when using alpha blending, but since V3 is 32 bit internally, it probably handles alpha decently enough.
2) No AGP texturing support. This doesn't mean anything for linux gamers since AGP isn't supported by any driver for any card. But still, they're suppose to be the best, and they don't even support AGP texturing. Okay, they support the AGP spec and sell cards that plug into the AGP port, but they use AGP texturing, which is the whole point of AGP in the first place.
3) On the topic of textures: their max texture size is 256 x 256, while the competition supports textures far above that. Causes loss in picture quality in games with larger textures. Of course, w/ the frames flying so damn fast you probably won't notice.
The only plusses 3dfx have are speed (which really isn't everything) and 3dnow! support (which means good Super 7 compatibility). I point out these things to show that 3dfx seems to thing speed is the only thing, and all of the competition has better feature sets. Okay, 3dfx has working drivers for linux, but I for one will not buy from 3dfx because it is my only choice just to play games in linux (or, in my case, FreeBSD). I'll still keep my windows partition until at least ONE other player in 3d card arena has working drivers of late beta quality out there on their NEW cards.
---
I really hope that the G400 can be used (when it's released) with the G200 drivers. That would be the final push for dumping my old V2 card. Low level drivers should be open sourced. Pronto!
---
I'm afraid the G200 and G400 rendering engines are sufficetnly different that they'll need seperate 3D driver code. 2D should be the same, or so I've read elsewhere.
-- Post No Gravy
Maybe a G200 OpenGl for Linux will be released before Matrox completes the one for Windows! Amazingly enough the G200 OpenGL is still in beta from Matrox while they are ramping up on the G400.
Too bad Red Hat has such a poor installation of KDE. I wish johnc had tried Mandrake.
I agree fully. Linux might/will gain more functionality in the ease of use department, but due to its openness the ability of a geek to go under the hood, change things and customize the way they want will never be taken away. Linux is all about freedom, so you can choose gnome, kde, or choose not to install either of them and you still have linux.
Not all the moderators suck; it was working pretty good until they started passing out moderator points like game pieces at McDonalds.
Yup, that is the G200 project I started that he is pimping. ;)
http://www.on.openprojects.net/glx
A good case in point would be Micros~1 long file names with spaces. Convienent for the user maybe, but a bitch to parse. At what point, and after how many special cases, do you give up and decide that you have reached a new token?
I don't suppose that this will cut it with the /. moderators glee club, but I tried.
Id does so many things right. They have done much to expand the gaming industry. They effectively created the online gaming scene. They are very open with their development, and give back to the community.
As I see it, Id doesn't fear things like opening up older games or, in general, being open with their development because they are very secure about their skills. They know that their games will be technically superior, so they don't have to resort to sneaky tricks. They are good enough to play fair, and still come out on top. I wish more software companies had this sort of mentality.
just some thoughts,
--Lenny
No, those arrows are drawn by gmc, which is really part of gnome. That doesn't change how silly and pointless the debate over whether KDE or GNOME looks more like Windows is, though...
Ideally, both computer geeks and casual users will BOTH be able to use the computer, and I imagine that's what is going to happen.
And this is a good thing.
I imagine it working something like this: When root creates a new user account, root is prompted: "Standard" or "Geek".
If root clicks on Standard, then the user gets a standard desktop, very simple, almost entirely applications, nothing like the hex editor, no mounting options, just a very simple system. The odd thing for the user would be a "Terminal" option, which the user would use about as frequently as "Command.exe" is used on Win9x. (This would be allowed so that a geek using a normal account could fix things up or what not.)
OR the root could click on "Geek", which is the environment that you are accustomed to. {:)}=
This is the best of both worlds, and a worthy goal.
Lion Kimbro: http://home.sprynet.com/~snowlion/
But the point you are making about Open Source drivers is still valid...
ps all you fucking vi and emacs sons of bitches can for now and ever shut the fucking hell up.
He didn't say they were crappy editors. He said that he never bothered to take the time to learn them. I don't think anyone who uses emacs and vi ever said they were easy to use, but once you learned the commands they are great.
Secondly, Id will never go out of business as long as they keep producing great games like quake, and if anything expanding into the linux market may increase their sales and make them more poised to stay in business longer.
Given that UNIX systems have supported long (as in greater than 14 characters) file names, with spaces, as far back as 1982, what are they a "good case" of? (They supported file names with spaces at least as far back as 1975-1976; I'm using 1982 as the first time they supported long file names, as that's when, as I remember, the BSD file system first arrived - I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that it was the first UNIX file system to support file names longer than 14 characters.)
Until OS/2 came out, "Micros~1 long file names with spaces" presumably meant Xenix file names with spaces, but, as far as I know, Xenix had the old V7 UNIX file system, with 14-character names.
You require that a token that contains spaces be included within quotes, as UNIX shells have done for ages, and as the Microsoft Windows NT shell (and, I think, the Windows OT shell) does. (At least in UNIX you can use double or single quotes; I often forget that single quotes don't work in the Windows NT shell.)
In a GUI, the quotes may not be necessary, but that applies to UNIX or MacOS, say, just as it applies to Windows.
He has CVS write access. That RULES !!
In most aspects KDE is more like Windows than GNOME, but GNOME has picked up a couple of Win95 traits, which really look odd and out of place.
1) The little arrows that both Windows and GNOME add to shortcut icons (GNOME puts them on the opposite side)
2) The window resize arrows that appear when the mouse pointer passes over a window; KDE uses the Motif style, but GNOME looks like they came straight from Windows.
AC #967
Arent you missing the point? If you want the best and it happens to be a CSS, you will be led up a dependency trail which will eventually catch up with you. Your costs will go up and you may not have enough OSS people to help you when the time comes. If all people start thinking the same way, the time will come when the CSS people will totally dominate the SW field and all users will have to dance to their tunes.
Look at performance holistically. Performance consists of many factors including the ability to modify SW if required. Dont take a very one sided view of performance.
Since you are all gamers, I am sure you understand that this is a strategy game. You have to not only win against the evil forces by blasting their brains, you also have to play an intelligent game by NOT playing into the hands of people who can take advantage later. These are rules which are not displayed with F1. I hope you win this game. Best of luck
O this learning! What a thing it is - William Shakespeare
You just know his mailbox must be filled by now with requests to try KDE ;-))
All in all, another good development. Remember when he came out, saying how he disliked Direct3D and loved OpenGL? The man has influence. Nvidia, take a hint, you did on OpenGL....
Then why is he using Windows NT as his main development system?
Because it's the only platform right now that offers good IDEs, compilers, OpenGL support, memory protection, good multi-tasking, good SMP, and decent driver support.
He is very hopeful for MacOSX, because of it's NeXTStep heritage(despite a single mouse button), and with it's future support for OpenGL and all the standard OS features such as protected memory, pre-emptive multi-tasking, hardware GL acceleration, etc.
Linux is a future candidate, as soon as the UI and desktop environs get polished a little and hardware manufacturers support it.
He himself cares little for the *politics*, just for the results. He likes Open Source; he can work without it.
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
benchmarks are at http://idsoftware.com/bwh/
It doesn't help that Software+, EB and Game all said they "wouldn't be stocking any linux games"
-- fsck -f -b 8193
Do you have to rip on him for being a non-programmer? Express your opinion, and that's all.
Although I'd have to disagree about Gnome, its good to see Carmack supporting Linux...hopefully other gaming people will see the path(read: cashcow) he's following and will fall in line :-)
--PimpBot (forgot my login)
I just tried out the G200 GLX driver with quake 2, and was very impressed. (I have never owned a voodoo or TNT card, so am not comparing it to them -- the graphics looked very nice though).
My only gripes were that I could not change the brightness/gamma (changing the option had no effect), and I couldn't use the mouse for input (this is probably a quake thing, but it may have something to do with GL contexts -- I am not sure).
If anyone knows how to fix either of these things, I would to hear how.
Another slightly off topic question, why would someone choose a card that can render at > 100 frames per second if their monitor runs 60 or 70 Hz?
I couldn't find it in stores in Cambridge, so I emailed LokiSoft and they said there had been logistical problems shipping to the brick & mortar stores. Be patient...
In the opinion of this non-programmer, Linux is special because of its flexibility and stability, not because of its open-source nature. Of course, open-source is a very cool thing, and I would like to think that source code is available for bug-testing and whatnot, but if you get software that's not open-source, it's nothing to get all huffy-puffy about.
I do recall Torvalds saying in several interviews that Linux users should not get into a debate over open-source vs. closed-source.
I'll have to defend the V3 - I have had nothing but good things to say about it since I got it.
Nobody in their right mind is going to play Q3A in 32bit color anyway even with a TNT2, it's looks fine in 16bit, and the frame rates kick butt.
Do not underestimate how relieving it is to not have to reboot into Windows just to play a game. Since they (Daryll Straus?) released the X server with V3 support I have not had to reboot since.
I'm unsure about the exact performance difference between Q3A in Linux and Windows, but I don't really need to. Visually I cannot tell any difference between the two.
All in all, there is no better video solution for a Linux user and moderate gamer than a V3 3000.. Maybe when Nvidia will get on the bandwagon and support Linux that will change - but I wasn't willing to wait forever.
We can only hope that other Harware manufacturers will follow suit
Matrox are you listening? How about those Warp Engine Specs for the G200 ?
What the hell do you think makes it so flexible and stable? It's not cause linux somehow attracts the best coders, it's because the code people write for it is OPEN SOURCE, it makes all the difference.
Lets see you try to optimize glide sometime... oh wait, you cant.
As a comparison of what's possible right now, I've got a Voodoo3 in a Celeron 300A@450, and am able to get 35 to 50fps in Q3Test at 1024x768 with all the quality options set to their maximum! (...under Linux, of course.)
Check out the www.linux3d.org site for more details on the Glide driver which makes this possible. It's not Open, but it's free and it's here now.
Disclaimer: I don't work for 3DFX, I'm just in awe of one of their cards.
This posting *IS NOT* Off topic, it is a witty comment on all silly ness.
/. is not "dry techy news, all the time"
the motto of
the moderating system is killing the humor of this site!
who teh hell are these moderators anyway? did their sense of humor die because of bad sense of techy?
So it's elitism to come from another OS, and try to change it to make it what you've came from.
So if I changed over to the Mac and then complained that it didn't do the command line like my previous OS, and the Mac users complained about it, would they be elitist?
In some ways this situation is like the wife/man who marries someone who has a particular mannerism thay they don't like and try to change it, and then wonder why he/she doesn't like it.
So many want to reshape Linux into a new mold without understanding what it is they're molding nor the consequences of that process.
Why should we try to wear other os'es faces, when others would do not the same?
Linux shouldn't pretend to be anything but itself
for to be otherwise would be denying its own identity.
--
Random thoughts #124
You don't have to submit internal changes to GPL programs.
The GLX driver is developed under a XFree86 compatible license as well... (This is because it needs to be compatible with the license that is appropriate for Precision Insight's direct rendering architecture)
But he have submitted some changes even so.
Linux's identity is lots of small tools each doing its particular job well. Linux's identity is the acceptance of an idea based on the fact that it works well and not because it would make a particular group happy. For example graphic drivers could be incorperated into the kernel, because that would make the gamers happy while reducing the stability for everyone else.
"Adding useability and UI and such is just the next step of Linux's evolution in being both powerful and flexible. Some users *don't* care about learning about the OS. Is that a crime? Why should they care about the OS, when all they want to do is use it? It is powerful and it is flexible, so it will attract a lot of people. Are you also of the belief that only those who learn the OS should use it?"
Here's something to think about that I've never seen adressed. OSS exist and continues to exist because of its core developers[1]. No one lives forever, so that means there will need to be replacements sooner or later. Were will the replacements come from? The large and ever increasing pool of "users [that]*don't* care about learning about the OS"? Afraid not. We could draw from the pool of programmers at the companies investing in Linux[2]. But then whos agenda will come to the forefront?
"Are you also of the belief that only those who learn the OS should use it?" No I'm of the belief that those who wish to enjoy the fruits of OSS should contribute back, the continued existance of OSS demands it. Unfortunately the contributions(if any) from the "don't want to learn the os" crowd will be quite lopsided. 1000 documentation writers and 1 coder for example.
[1] Read people who are familiar with the OS and the concepts of programming.
[2] Assuming they will allow this.
Embedded spaces are hostile to casual CLI interaction, and are present in inverse proportion to the quality of the CLI. Consider the following data points:
In the Mac, with no (native) CLI, spaces are used in file names with abandon.
In Windows 95+ interface, with a retarded CLI (command/cmd), embedded spaces in file names have been encouraged (like the obnoxious 'Program Files' and common usage for Word documents) but are not nearly as common (in my experience, YMMV).
It is interesting to note that the presence of the embedded spaces 'feature' in Windows seems to be a part of a blind effort on MS's part to "be like a Mac" (even when it doesn't make sense).
Finally, in the Unix/Linux world, with several quality CLI's, embedded spaces is vanishingly rare.
Personally, whenever co-workers send or reference files in our NT network that contain embedded spaces, I ask them (as politely as I can manage), to change the spaces to underscores. It takes no more time to write the name that way, and eliminates one more source of bugs in scripts (we use MKS Korn Shell for NT extensively, it is light years ahead of the native CLI - making the problem with spaces more acute), typed commands, etc.
Embedded spaces in filenames are just a bad idea, people should get out of the habit of using them, no matter if the OS allows it or not.
An esoteric scratched itch:
Homeworld Map Maker Tool
Try:
C:\> DIR Program Files
--doesn't work.
C:\> DIR "Program Files"
--works.
C:\> COPY "Program Files\stuff" stuff
--quotes are required.
Well the first block of comments says that code and information will be released by companies(for whatever reason). There's one small [but important] ingredient missing. Code and attendant information is like coal,oil,code,gas,etc. All are a resource that for them to be of any use must have someone who's capable(and knowledgable) of transforming them into useful products. One of Linux's strengths (often sighted) is that the source code is available, and one has the tools available to scratch an itch. The one who fits that category is generally know as a coder[1]. In other words one who has the skill to take the raw material and make it into something that everyone can use (that includes the "I don't want to know" crowd...").
Unfortunately they're a finite resource that will need to be replenished if Linux is not only to continue but innovate. We could have all the coal,oil,gas,etc, but without the replenishment of the people with the skills and knowledge to transform those resources our society would falter
Yes even the "I don't want to know..." crowd would suffer. As I say again, were would these "replacements" come from? Certainly not from the "I don't want to know, but I like the benefits" crowd.
"I don't really think Linux is about elitist you vs me geeky vs mainstream users. It's about people who want to tinker and play with their OS, who want to do things, but are constrained by the conventional OSes, or people who need things, and can easily add them because Linux is open source. As long as Linux remains strong in these areas, I don't see it fading anytime soon. "
This reinforces my comments. Were will the coders come from? Will there be enough to balance out the people who "don't want to know"? How will they feel about non-contributors?
[1] They may not call themselves that but...
I'm hoping this thread gets sent down...
Elitism is not something one should cherish; us vs them, we're better, nyaa-nyaa!
Linux will/can fork, so if you *really* insist on something arcane or bleeding edge, go for it!
Catering to the casual users also means catering to John Carmack, because he doesn't want to deal with minor useability issues, and learning things the hard way. He wants to program his games, and not learn how to use his OS any more than he needs to; are you willing to exclude Carmach from your elite group because he prefers more 'user friendliness' just so he can get his job done?
There are a good bunch of people who need their OS to just work, and has nothing to do with being an idiot; if they can get their stuff done in Linux because Linux 'just works', then power to Linux and to those users.
If Linux were to remain within the cadre of elite power users, then it wouldn't be very *useful* would it?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
I am a professional programmer. My speciality is not operating systems, but I'm sure that I'd have the technical ability to do some useful work towards an open source operating system if I really wanted to. However, I don't want to. It simply doesn't interest me that much, I'd much rather be working on other kinds of things. I don't mind learning a bit about Linux, and I'd probably use it a lot more if someone else was administering the system. However, to me the OS is just a tool that I use that allows me to do the things that I'm interested in - I don't want to have to spend time working on stuff that could be spent more productively.
It also seems that it's rather against the spirit of the GPL to expect people to give stuff back if they use it - sure, if you use and make it better, then by all means!, but surely part of the original aim of Linux and the GNU project was to have a set of freely avaliable tools that people could *use*...
I see this as being a fundamental test of the whole open source philosiphy - will there continue to be enough people out there with a sufficient interest in operating system development to keep Linux going?
--Bitscape
These are all valid points that have been beaten like a dead horse in the press for the past several months. But the fact remains, if your going to play Q3 test under Linux anytime soon, you're going to either use a 3dfx video card, or you're going to have to boot back into Windows. Last I heard, the official word from id was that Q3 Arena for Linux would initially support 3dfx cards only.
I'm looking for alternatives too, but so far it's been just rumours and wishful thinking.
AC #967
I have a Voodoo I and I used it fo q3test and it was slow but playable. I was wondering how the performance of a Voodoo1 compared to a G200.
You know, if Carmack really did ask Nvidia for the driver source for testing/programming/Open Source use, do ya think Nvidia may actually Open Source it?
I mean requests from thousands of users is much different than a request from The Man(tm) who helps to sell your cards with his games, right?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
I heard on that g200-glx mailing list that the even the current g200 X server needs some work to work with the G400.
He knows what open source is, he has donated over $20,000 to the GNU project, for instance, and usually releases the source to his games after 4 years (though under a no comercial use licence). Also, he seems to have pioneered having games that were open enough for the users to come up with their own varients.
Plato seems wrong to me today
Duh, that's the point of open source. If more people realized this, open source programing would be a prefered over "Microsofting" everything.
Space Cadet
Okay, you don't have multiple workspaces in win9x. But really, what is wrong w/ win9x interface? I think it's a very good interface w/ the taskbar especially. And IceWM looks very much like windows 98, and IceWM supports GNOME. So do people not use IceWM because it looks like windows? Doubtful.
IMO, Windows 98 GUI is a pretty good one. I'd use IceWM, but I don't know how to configure it for a specific user only (anybody know?). So, it's Blackbox for me.
I hope he submitted the changes he made in, as outlined in the GPL. :)
-- 100% MS-Free as of 4-4-1999, 11:47:38 PST. "The lapdance is always better when the stripper is cryin'" Free Kevin,