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KDE & GNOME Cooperate
||Plazm|| writes " Here's an interesting article on what's in the future for these two dev platforms. Maybe they can play nice after all... 'This past week, there has been an impressive show of cooperation between the KDE and GNOME projects involving prominent hackers from both camps. The initial subject of discussion was concerning a common network-connection manager that would enable applications to detect whether an internet connection was currently available or not; both projects had already been working on the issue including two independent efforts from KDE developers Bjoern Kahl and Matt Koss. The discussion diverged to the larger issue of making GNOME and KDE play nice together including related CORBA matters.' "
I think that is quite important really. If
it had been impossible to compare an application with something similar, it would be more
difficult to get refinements all the time.
Competion is not that bad after all.
(I develop KDE/Qt apps)
What does that have to do with 2 free desktop projects?
Several developers have also mentioned the non-CORBA option. Compatibility with apps that do not do CORBA is a goal as well.
Evidently it's on the ftp server in the 1.0 dir.
You can write shell scripts that mail themselves to users, already. How's using the 'mail' command any different from using MAPI?
Besides, even email viruses are possible under Unix, at least if you use Emacs to read mail. You can add a local variables list to the bottom of an email, and when someone reads it, you can put in an eval pseudovariable in the list to execute arbitrary code.
Unless you've put something like
in your .emacs file, you're vulnerable to this. I seriously doubt very many people have done this....
I have _plenty_ of bones to pick with Miguel, but this is not one of them.
THis is a technical explanation, that Miguel gave in response to a question. It does not affect interoperability significantly; one desktop's way of doing things will not interfere with the other. In fact, I see Miguel's point.
Please do not make problems where there are none.
-A KDE user.
Strange, I leave X running for months and months and don't see any memory leaks... what version/hardware, etc are you using?
What's keeping you? I built a little $500 computer for my mom a couple months ago and installed Linux on it. She never used a computer before and has caught on quite quickly and easily and she loves it. Linux being hard to use for the end user is a myth, the problem comes from people already knowing how to do things one way and learning another. This is no different from a Mac user learning to use Windows for example.
I think it's Paddingtown
I get memory leaks in the Matrox driver, but mostly only with KDE (it swells up to almost 128MB in less than 24 hours!).
This is a rather naive idea of "the exact situation". The GPL has clauses that will allow you to combine GPL code with more restricted code as well. See the system library clause for example.
Please, if you are not a lawyer, do not pretend to be one and it will cause less confusion.
Anyone that has ever programmed on the win32
platform is aware of the central messaging
scheme that is in use.
While win32 programming takes forever and is
a pain in the ass (imho), perhaps a messaging
system like this would be good for X, and
could allow apps to easily talk to each other,
no matter if they are a k-app, or a gnome app.
What do you mean by "for the most part separate ways in how each interacts with X"? That is plain wrong and that was plain wrong. There was _never_ a problem in running a KDE application with other window managers, and their was never a problem in running a gnome application with the KDE windowmanager.
;-)
Why is nonsense like this repeated over and over again? What about simply _trying it out_?
Both of these are OpenSource projects.
.....
Why is it the LINUX community that is 'maturing'?
Why is it "ust about guarantees that Linux will be appreciated and used more and
more as a primary desktop platform. "
What about *BSD? Or using KDE/GNOME on SCO? Ori on
This OpenSource movement is BIGGER than *JUST* GNU/Linux. Or GNU, or Linux.
Think of it: The OpenSource methodology was able to get one of the most CLOSED computer companies out there...Apple...to sign on and (basicly) say "This OpenSource (BSD) is GOOD enough to REPLACE what we were going to do with BSD."
Try thinking with a bigger scope than just 'linux'.
But why not have ip-up and ip-down set a variable to ONLINE and OFFLINE? and system startup script to set it to OFFLINE.. That's what I'm doing for my bash prompt line.. it looks like this:
:0)
(time)-(date)-(Online)
(~)-$
And with nice colors
- Rainy
KDE and GNOME have every reason to work together. If they fail to, they risk killing themselves off, potentially taking linux with them. As far as I can see, the people displaying the most fervent religious convictions are users who don't code for either project. With any luck we'll get 2 functionally equivalent desktops to satisfy both sides.
Don't we have a perfectly good program to do this? (I actually wrote a Gnome panel applet to control it 'nicely', if that's the problem)
Go ahead and reinvent wheels if you get a kick out of it though, I guess..
Daniel
I get memory leaks in the Matrox driver, but mostly only with KDE (it swells up to almost 128MB in less than 24 hours!).
This typically occurs when applications forget to free resources such as XPMs, etc., at closing.
The reason not to use an environmental variable is
that already-running apps are not notified. I think
that criticizing this sort of stuff before it's built is really
a bad idea. If you don't like it, then don't use it
or come up with something better. For the most part,
though, these guys know full well what they're doing,
as evidenced by the quality so far of GNOME and KDE
both. Just kut them some gslack.
The compettion between KDE and GNOME seemed to have it's good points. One of the jabs that GNOME supporters had against KDE was the license that the Qt widget set was under. As a side effect, the entire implimentation of the widget set was questions and a project to make a *thread-safe* widget set under FSF licensing was created call Harmony. Since then, Troll Tech has addressed the Qt widget licensing issue. Unfortantly, Harmony seems to have died with the birth of FreeQt. Does anyone know if either of these desktops will be structured around a thread-safe API? Also, does anyone know if someone else has picked up development of the Harmony project? Harmony's own offical "updated daily" status web page has layed dormate since Novemember of last year. The Harmony mailing list appears to have also trickled down to the point of complette death around April.
so you are saying that you don't have a problem with there being more than one notepad clone, just that you don't know how to properly remove the nine you don't use?
No memory leaks...
Really? KDE runs fine on my P75/40meg system.
Gnome/icewm runs fine as well. I haven't really had any RAM shortage problems and seem to have plenty of horsepower as long as I stay away from Enlightenment.
They are really excellent. After that go to developer.kde.org.
You all are stupid.
No problems. Not as fast as a console but not slower than windows either.
KDE sux! GNOME rules!
'nuff said.
Probably pot or something. That wouldn't suprise me at all.
i believe that it was rasterman who said that he planed on building E it's own desktop environment instead of using gnome. i await the day. both kde and gnome have crippling faults, and E is no doubt the most attractive window manager. i anticipate the day when i can use E independantly from gnome.
As well as several other resources. That is why if the client exits without freeing them they are still in memory.
I guess that it all depends on your definition of speed. KDE/Gnome both too slow for my tastes. And, like I said before, there are _no stable_ applications that I use that require either of them, so why saddle myself with a boated desktop just because it happens to be KDE/Gnome.
I have not had a crash since 1.0...
Linux Gui development is coming along, but it has quite a long way to go to feel as easy and reassuring as W98 or Mac OS 8.5 to typical users. The most basic functionality is mostly there, but system and services configuration? Stone Age(from J.Bloggs' point of view and requirements.)
A killer app, or two, not available on Windows 98, a proven, huge advantage versus 98 in resistance to filesystem/data corruption, a proven, huge advantage in filesystem access over time and as the partition fills up --these would be compelling arguments for Linux over Windows 98 in Windows 98's proper market segment. They would have to proven, large, and hammered on relentlessly in the popular press with no convincing counter from MS that fixes are coming.
I think that another factor is the fact that most 'office apps' are written in an extremely un-Unixy fashion, so either developers have to swallow their aesthetic sense or come up with a new way of doing things. The first decreases the number of potential contributors (who wants to write nasty code?), while the second takes time (luckily, free software doesn't have a deadline :-) -- I'm not sure if anyone's working on the second angle, but I believe it has happened, although I can't think of any examples offhand. So I could be totally wrong :-) )
Daniel
/.
It's not a matter of political correctness. It's a matter of technical correctness. Gnome and KDE don't manage windows, therefor they are not window managers.
AArthur sez Linux still needs:
>1) A good point an click e-mail program >(preferably supporting HTML) This is still >lacking! Maybe Netscape 5.0 will give us that.
Ever heard of netscape communicator? it ships with most Linux distros. (I switched over to using netscape mail - the recent versions are really very nice and functional)
>2) A simple, easy to use web browser. Netscape >5.0, based on Mozilla could be great!
hmmm - again, this sounds like netscape communicator - perhaps you've heard of it?
It ships with most Linux distros...
apps will compete/steal ideas from each other and evolve a best of breed. get with the program.
go back to 6th grade and retake grammar.
i are college student. duh.
Not much information here...With the merger, whose name will the project retain? What widget set will they use? How will they reconcile the difference between C++ and C?
I think I want some more information before I take this as truth.
One of diald's options is to open an output fifo to which it will write an ongoing stream of state-change information, including when the link goes up/down.
Write one program to consume this stream of information and maintain the interesting bits in a shared memory area.
Write a second program which can be used to query the shared memory maintained by the first program.
What does your NT 2000 box have to do with anything? And why is bickering between KDE and GNOME the last thing Linux needs? I'm sure that there are probably some things that KDE does a lot better than GNOME. Likewise, I'm sure that there are some things that GNOME does that KDE doesn't do. I would rather them push each other to find the best solutions than just simply accept one because it's expedient.
... everything about it) is about a year old, and it's still far from completion. Am I complaining? Absolutely not. Not at all. I'm willing to wait for it, because I believe that it's going to be a killer application. I would rather wait and have a great browser, than to have a mediocre one pushed out the door.
The deal with Free Software, in case you guys haven't figured it out yet, is that it takes time for these projects to evolve. From a competing with Windows perspective, it might actually make sense to sit down and roadmap a plan for getting our desktop in shape before the roll out of the W2K bug, but from the perspective of making a killer desktops for us users, this sort of attitude only hinders the development of these projects.
Look at Mozilla. As far as I'm concearned, the project (as a whole
Same thing with Linux. Same thing with GNOME. Same thing with KDE. Same thing with Enlightenment. Same thing with the GIMP. I use Linux. I want it to be good. As far as I'm concearned, the notion of competing with Windows is silly because, from my own selfish perspective, Linux has already won. And, if Linux is going to achieve World Domination (TM), then let's do it by showing others that our way is simply better. It may take longer, but really, what's the rush? The World is going to be around for a long time -- domination doesn't have to be an overnight thing.
Regards,
Travis
cmd ln all th way d00d
KDE + X takes about 32MB of RAM. I don't see how applications running on top of that could run fast.
Chill, what did this guy do to you?
Maybe you haven't heard, but this is a hacker's OS. If you can't handle it, and I can't imagine you getting much help with your attitude, why don't you get yourself something that you can manage? Like a PlayStation or something.
John Waalkes
jwaalkes@edge.net
Pretty much the same thing as restarting X like you said...
Actually its nothing like restarting X windows.
When Windows restarts with this method, it still shuts everything down and restarts everything again... it just doesn't force the BIOS to reboot.
So you're still losing everything.
But when you restart X windows in Linux, mail still flows in the meantime, all the other lovely stuff going on in daemon land that did *not* crash is still running, etc.
Don't mix up technologies. Windows is nothing like Linux in the stability department. Nothing.
This is simply untrue. It is often stated that the X license is compatible, but this is essentially because RMS has not objected against that.
Your statement concerning more|less rights of the license is just a rule of thumb, not a legal term.
* There is no such thing as sublicensing in international copyright law. Only the copyright _holder_ can change the license, and the Open Group won't do that.
* The GPL demands (in the preamble) that there has to be a note in the code -placed there by the copyright _HOLDER_ that the GPL can be applied to this code. This is obviously not the case with X code.
So, strictly speaking, the GPL is not compatible with the X license, unless you use the "system library exception" (which also makes Qt compatible) of the GPL.
As this is a tricky situation, people have basically ignored this problem and focused on bashing TrollTech and KDE's use of Qt instead.
Av.
You're right when saying technical explanations are ok to justify different ways of doing things.
But inthis case (and a couple of others) I got the impression that the technical arguments were *very* weak and the "what I do is always simply better" of Miguel very strong.
Essentially Miguel is the main obstacle to cooperation, and this effort may likely fail due to his bickering.
Comment out some of the services you don't need in the startkde script.
Don't use background images etc.
Sure you shouldn't start StarOffice, but it's good for small tasks. I tried it on an 32MB Vaio, and it works.(Addidional KDE progs don't eat a lot of additional RAM, as the libs are already loaded)
But usually I prefer kfm+Window Maker if I need a faster setup.
(BTW, the main culprit is not KDE, but X. I'm really looking forward to a more modular XFree 4)
No it *isn't* functionally equivalent, you just don't get it... he was saying that when you restart X, your machine is *STILL FUNCTIONING AS IT SHOULD*, albeit without a GUI. That is *not* the same as if Windows is being Shift-restarted, not even close.
-fno-rtti, -fno-exceptions are your friends. And have you every heard of virtual memory (swap)?
Not true. Windows uses *much* more memory and therefore is slower than X on most pc's because
swapping is forced early on. On a very fast machine with lots of memory Windows may run faster because graphics are 'closer" to the kernel but this means that when individual windows crash the whole system often crashes.
For example, I often use Enlightenment with X with heavy graphical themes, 4 destops, each with a different background in 16 bpp with 9 panes each and start up with kfm and an rxvt. That's 36 windows sized screens, with the K file manager which also loads about half of the Kde libs with it. Total size of swap file, less than 2 megs. (I have 32 megs of ram and a cheap AGP video card). It flies with Enlightenment and most of Kde and other apps.
Starting Windows with *NO* applications running and only one desktop my swap is over 10 megs, and keeps getting bigger. And I get the boring Windows look with it. Wait for Win 2K which will requre a 350 mhz box with at least 128 megs for decent performance.
Of course X can be improved - an it will be improved and will evolve into something better. But is is inifinitely beter than the Windows desktop right now in most ways.
Kde does not use a lot of memory. It is true that Kde apps, includin the file manager, don't give memory back to the system until they are closed, but Kde is working on allocating memory in chunks that can be deallocated while apps are still running. Netscapse does the same. These are not memory leaks, as the memory is freed when one closes the apps. (There may also be some leaks but this does not account for the way these applications use more and more memory the longer they run). Most Windows programs are the same way, or worse.
I use Linux for its desktop. Not for a server.
Some comments:
Ad 2) KDE is currently working on that. Will be there in 2.0.
If you ideas how multihead support should look like, please mail me.
Ad 3) Will be there in 2.0
Ad 4) If Sun helps a bit we might be able to add it.
Ad 5) I am sure you can put an icon on kpanel which
does the same.
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Waldo Bastian
bastian@kde.org
Have you noticed that the X/WM/KDE/GNOME mammals are eating your eggs?
Have a nice extinction. Or better yet, go run your precious obsolete command-line on a TRS-80 with CP/M, or worse yet, M$-DOS.
GUI environments including details of configuration are necessary for average users, Jay. They just are. Wasteful? I'll grant this --for now. But even if in theory they weren't so necessary, the existence of two strong environments (Win & mac) on desktop personal computers means that in practice Linux must have the equal if it is to succeed at all in the desktop market.
People aren't going to convert to text based configuration and operating systems that exclusively cling to it because a)they don't like it and b)they don't have to. Text based configuration isn't called "harder" because of some subjective state of preconditioning that we can ascribe to Win/Mac users and wish-away. (they'll get over it) It simply is harder. The reason behind "a) they don't like it" is the simple fact that text based confguration allows for an _infinite_ number of mistakes and misconfigurations. It is just too easy for the uninitiated to make tiny mistakes in text based setup. They're missing a colon in their otherwise flawless XYZ script so it fails. Ld config what the #%$*&^ is that? DefaultColorDepth not Defaultcolourdepth. And so on. Gui configuration at least apparently reduces the possible number of *%&^-ups to a definite range. There are only so many buttons and combinations, so eventually I'll get it sez Mr. Bloggs .
The vast majority want their computers to just run apps without fuss and let them play with _relatively limited_ customization of the desktop. hence preloads, Windows, and GUI configuration. They are happy in what many here would call the wading pool of computing. But aren't they perfectly within their rights to want to use their computers this way without investing what would be a great amount of mental effort to learn the Unix way? Remember, most people who work with computers are actually doing tasks that can be accomplished with more 'primitive' tools. They want their computers to work the same way, just faster. I never needed to RTFM on my typewriter to use it. They also have alot going on in their lives and workday; requiring them to wrap their busy little heads around the intricasies of Unix defeats the utility of the PC (make it faster) for them and is not going to be a very successful strategy for widespread Linux adoption.
So what's wasteful, then? Writing GUI based configuration dialogs that people will use only rarely, or writing an OS that people will frequently remove from their hard drives because they cannot get over the learning curve of service configuration?
Talk to me when E gets it's own office suite :P
Remember who wrote Extended Color Basic: Microsoft! It was the language that evolved into Basic-A/GW-Basic when the IBM-PC came out.
Of course, this was back in the dark ages (early '80s), when Microsoft actually produced quality products and Bill Gates was "merely" a millionaire.
A command-line interface is good for some things, especially in programming, but for the average person, the CLI has been dead since 1992, when Win3.1 came out. The introduction of the WWW in '94-'95 was the final nail in the CLI coffin. After all, how many people use Lynx? Not many in comparison with Internet Exploiter or Nutscrape.
You are absolutely correct here -- this is the most critical piece of the whole desktop environent. Which widget set is used basically doesn't matter at all in comparison to the object model. If the Gnome and KDE object models don't cleanly interoperate, then each project will only be about a quarter as useful as they could be, since network effects absolutely dominate when you can plug lots of small components together.
For those not hip to what component models can buy you, imagine that at the command line you had two different, incompatible piping mechanisms. If ps used one and grep each used a different piping mechanism, you wouldn't be able to do things like "ps au | grep '(dns helper)'"; basically it would make scripting much harder.
This is what we will face on the desktop if KOM and Baboon don't learn to talk to each other. Without it, the desktop environment will be pretty but basically useless, because you won't be able to script common tasks, you won't be able to take pieces of different apps to do things the way *you* want, and rapid prototyping becomes hell.
Both KDE and Gnome make my puny little P200/64MB system screetch to a halt. I use neither, and do not foresee the need to anytime in the near future. Neither one offers anything at the _current_ date and time other than fancy widgets to play with on the desktop, no applications that are _stable_ and can be used for _real_ work. I would rather save what ram I have to applications to work with, not fancy widgets on the desktop.
please dont make jokes on slashdot threads, this is slashdot..not laughdot.
I too have a Matrox card and use KDE (v1.1.1). I have no troubles with it at all. I have left a single X/KDE session running for over a month with no problems. Currently X is at just under 20mb, but with 128mb ram I don't really mind that amount.
Where I lose memory is Netscape (recently hit 80MB after about 3 days), but it's no trouble shutting it down when I close my Internet connection or when I'm done with it.
Since KDE isn't any one program, what programs were up to 128MB? Is that with counting the shared memories?
Why should he have to delete them? The developers of all those notepads should be responsible for that. Yeah.
In all seriousness, I agree with others who've stated how these programs are great learning tools for a language/toolkit. I use vi for most things, but when it came to seeing just how to implement a menu or toolbar in Qt/KDE, I broke open the source to kedit and voila; let the learning begin.
There is still a sufficiently large crowd that does not want any software to be under anything but L/GPL licenses. It's tough to imagine, but there are people more rogue than RMS. :)
...Catastropic Explosion Follows. Film at 11.
I sit here reading slashdot on a Windows98 PC which I just rebooted 10 minutes ago due to there being insufficient USER resources to deal with the 15 browser windows, the email client, the irc client, the development environment and the task scheduler, all of which I had running at the same time, and in *spite* of the fact that I have 128 Megs of RAM in this box.
And yet, when I closed all of those applications, I still couldn't start any others up due to an error from Windows itself "Insufficient memory to start application".
Windows is a far worse culprit than Linux in this regard. Hardcoded User Resource limitations? Sheesh.
With Linux, I could've just restarted X and still had my scheduler, email program, development environment still in good shape, but with Windows I've had to reboot it fully in order to get it back in working order.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
For some, its the same. For others, its not.
In Windows land, you have no choice. Totalitarian technology!
End of discussion.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Small apps such as text editors and paint programs tend to be very good examples when it comes to learning a new programming language like GTK or QT. Since KDE/GNOME are open source, anyone just starting out can peek in at the source to see how things are done. I know I have personally done this with many of the smaller KDE apps, and now I have a much greater understanding on how things are supposed to work. From this standpoint, it's definately a benefit in my opinion.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
**sarcasm**
What are we gonna do?? We can't bash each other any more about KDE and gnome cause the big shots from each camp are getting friendly!! The world is ending!! We must find a new enemy within the Linux camp to attack!!
**end sarcasm**
Why is there this obsession with identifying "ingroups" and "outgroups"? Why not all share and be friendly? Why not give Windows its occasional due (it still is generally a better gaming platform, and is the source of inspiration for a lot of Linux development)? As people here have noted, slahdotters tend to get overly religious about [window mangers/desktop environments/word processors/distributions/etc.]. There's such a thing as using what works for you and letting everyone else do what they like (as long as they're doing the same....after all, standing there getting flamed for being moderate isn't right).
Who am I?
Why am here?
Where is the chocolate?
What is your Slash Rating?
I agree that as Mozilla gets closer, my anticipation grows. I've used M7, and they're definitely making progress.
--
They each come with a WM, but you're over simplifying the significance of this announcement.
Werd.
I'm not really sure. If you're being serious, then congrats on finding IceWM...it's nice. if you're being sarcastic, then I might ask "why?"
Werd.
HA HA HA!!!!
....laughdot :)
that was so funny,
If only "common" sense was actually that common...
I think I'll make the safe assumption that that was a joke. Some people are a bit too sensitive and/or have rather weak sense of humor...
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Unless, of course, Qt 2.0 is very different from Qt 1.x in this aspect....
The subject says it all.
Lets face it. By combning the abilites of the GNOME and KDE folks we are starting to group together a very serious group of talented programmers without wasting time and effort trying to better the opposition.
It's this kind of annoucement that will really start the linux/*NIX domination of the market.
All credit is due to those people who can see past the differences and who work towards a common goal.
Iggy
Part of the problem that has haunted Open Source is the fact that there are many people willing to develop their own code because the code that they have been using "doesn't quite cut it." Don't get me wrong, that is also part of what makes Open Source so great. It can also be it's downfall. GNOME and KDE being a potential example of this. Although both were designed as an X Environment, they have-for the most part-gone seperate ways in how each interacts with X.
By meeting on common grounds on certain issues, they are giving your everyday user (such as myself) better choices without much hassle.
Now keep in mind, these are my opinions...I am not all knowing, and not a very good speller. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
This would be SO nice.. It would extend the applet library for BOTh systems drastically..
I can only hope it happens,..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
They each come with a WM, but you're over simplifying the significance of this announcement.
Really? Gnome comes with a WM? I didn't know that. I've been using Gnome since 0.40 (or soemwhere around there) and I never knew it came with a wm. I've been using icewm with it. So what's the wm Gnome comes with?... I'd like to try it out.
Suffice to say, this benefits everyone. Personally, I run GNOME for the look and feel, and the interface, but there are some nice KDE applications. The fact that they run is nice enough :) Interoperability is the holy grail because it stifles the argument about incompatible development. You don't like Gnumeric? Use KSpread! You don't want the kde file manager? Use gmc. It works out beautifully. With theming support for KDE, even the widgets will (in theory) look similar, we'll be able to draw upon the efforts of both KDE and GNOME developers and have a unified desktop.
Anyone who says this is a waste of time, is severely lacking in the 'big picture' department.
----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------
This is a step in the right direction (a common windowmanager support API would be nice also).
It's not going the whole way, but that's to be expected; these things are usually taken in small steps. It's the sort of thing which should be encouraged; the more interoperable these DE's become the better for everyone.
I'm a gnome user myself, but I have a few KDE apps that I like to use also. I think it would be great if they could share themability and whatnot. It would allow the developer to use which desktop environment he/she wants, and the user to integrate the application with his/her interface.
Mike
Tigger's like to read
I assume you're trying to be sarcastic. If it weren't for the fact that you're dead wrong, it might even have been funny...
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
I believe it's Paddington. :)
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
BIGOT - buy a dictionary.
-- Back to the shadows again...
The reason not to use an environmental variable is that already-running apps are not notified.
The reason not to use an environmental variable is that it's redundant information which could be obtained just as easily from ifconfig.
Put CORBA support in your ifup/ifdown program, which will then (de)activate an interface, report that action to all the apps who want to know, and exit when they're done.
It would be necessary to have this ifup/ifdown program the default way of handling network interfaces, but if you could get Gnome & KDE to agree on it the free Unix distributions will all fall over backwards to accomodate.
There's the question of proprietary Unix support - but is this network monitoring daemon going to be able to do anything better than polling 'ifconfig' on them anyway?
I think that criticizing this sort of stuff before it's built is really a bad idea.
I think doing planning & design consideration before you start writing code is a good idea. You can hack an inefficient or bad implementation of a program at your leisure, but fixing an inefficiently or badly designed program is something to avoid if at all possible.
If you don't like it, then don't use it or come up with something better. For the most part, though, these guys know full well what they're doing, as evidenced by the quality so far of GNOME and KDE both. Just kut them some gslack.
You'll get no argument from me there. But keep in mind, one of the mixed blessings of Open Source development is the thousand back seat drivers waiting in the wings to point out segfaults, memory leaks, and even potential bad ideas. I think leaving a process sitting on it's ass 99% of the time to provide the functionality containable in a short shared library is a bad idea.
Does someone want to explain to me exactly what advantages this "network connection daemon" will have over a few hundred shared library lines that call "route" (or play with /proc) and "ifup"?
I've got enough sleeping processes taking up RAM on my system as it is.
Now how does this work... the old system would be removed from Qt and its replacement from Libsigc++ can be used in its place. Internally, this a bit of work depending on the number of close interactions within Qt with the signal system. It is certainly doable as a similar task is being done with Gtk-- right now to upgrade versions of signal system. This can be done to applications with a simple flex/bison program that converts the code once, rather that over and over again like MOC. They just toss out the source for MOC and use the translated source directly. Considering the code had to be preprocessor safe to start it is not a great task.
Since libsigc++ is LGPL incorperating it in this fashion is not breaking any licences and Troll Tech is able to use the modified Qt both in the free and comercial versions. Of course, it can never be as closely incorperated as another GPL project can, but it is certainly workable. GPL/LGPL projects can just directly incorperate Libsigc++ into the code base if they want and build stronger interactions to their benifit. However, I feel that it is complete enough that most projects won't have to do that.
Since some of Qt tied code is tied by the Qt types and signal system, replacing these with free pieces is of great benifit to the free software comunitee. You could then take a piece without having to keep it linking back to Qt. Reuse is our strength and libsigc++ was built to encourage that reuse by making library callbacks very easy to do. (Not that Qt under the new license is all that restrictive, but it is not directly GPL compatable which the new piece is.)
This of course will have to wait til Qt 2.2 or something when the KDE developers have time to make the changes. It is not a feature of Qt 2.0, because libsigc++ was not even seperated from Gtk-- til after Qt 2.0 went to Beta! As fundemental as the signal/slot implementation is to Qt, to applications it was only just another API.
Hope this clears things up a bit.
--Karl
I believe that (a) is strictly out. The projects are built on different philosophies on how everything should work. One wants C and other C++. One intends to be strictly LGPL while the other tends toward GPL. Both sides seem to want the other to give up their widget sets. Talking to both, I think hell will freeze over first. Unless some super kit comes allong that is far better than both and it equally usable for both C and C++, it is not going to happen.
Therefore, it will always be (b) or (c). The best hope is that CORBA will saturate the 2 frameworks and thus the interoperablity comes down to the API which they are working on. This of course means more of (c) the most likely outcome. Since the underlying technology (different widgets sets, different framework libraries) is so different, they will most likely just share some compatablity between file formats and such. But at that level the user will always need both library sets installed for the user to run applications from both under one desktop.
Of course, I don't really mind that solution as long as it doesn't bloat them both out as you mentioned. The simplest workable solution should be the one that they adopt. I feel a continued competition between the desktops is good to inspire inovation (unlike those who feel it a waste of effort.)
--Karl
Sharing of signal/slot implementations would benifit KDE by removing the MOC preprocessor and improve the flexiblity of their signal/slots. GNOME will get the benifit that KDE libraries and applications will be less tied to Qt and thus more easily reused. Since libsigc++, the Gtk-- signal system, is a close translation of the capablities of gtk+ signal system, this should also reduce the burden of programmers trying to understand the two kits. For projects with multiple frontends, this would be a great help.
Unfortunately, this development is not set to be planned until after the summer when the KDE people start a developers cut of Qt. Assuming that people are interested I can give some directions as to how the translation can be made, but I don't have time to work on it heavily myself. (Preliminary specifications have already been sent to Mosfet.) I can mail more info to other interested programmers.
--Karl
No, it wouldn't. See RMS's comment on Netscape Public License problems on www.gnu.org for a similar situation, where he points out that one of the problems (according to him) of NPL is that it's not GPL-compatible, despite the fact it's free.
The X license is compatible. Basically, anything you can say is GPL by sublicensing (X, some BSD) or by changing the licence (LGPL) or because it is (Perl license, GPL & something else) is compatible.
I think one of the reasons there are a lot of "simple" apps instead of one GOOD app is that simple apps are much easier to code either as a single developer or in a loosely structured open environment. That is a main reason that office apps are so far behind in Linux... anyone can write notepad, but it's much more difficult to write a quality word processor. Steve
I think that more than just a (some) killer app(s), many people have been waiting for more mature attitudes and perspectives from most or all of the leaders in the Linux community. This is a great sign and, to me anyway, just about guarantees that Linux will be appreciated and used more and more as a primary desktop platform.
:)
Now, back to Civ:CTP
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
That's great news!
Compatibly is good for all GNOME and KDE app developers. It increases the potential user base, user choices and developer choices.
Nobody is forcing you to use both. Just use the one that you want to use, based on the features it has (that appeal to you). Everybody has different needs, wants and preferences. ONE size does not fit all!
The nice thing is if KDE and GNOME interact, you *can* use both together, although it will use slightly more resources.
Competition is good. Monopoly on the desktop is bad.
I don't understand what you are mumbling about.
E and Window Maker are both Window Mangers, and one has to run at a time.
If you are suggesting intergrating the code bases into one source code, that would not make sense, since Window Maker aims to be something totally different then Enlightenment.
If you are talking about GNOME compatiblity, both E and Window Maker work great with GNOME. Window Maker also works pretty good with KDE, although E could use some intergration work.
I disagree.
Most older people, who have never used a computer before, really don't care about messing with configuration that much.
They really don't care about kernel version, or how much of a certain word the computer has.
They want something that does their work reliabily, without crashing and quickly. They don't want to configure things (except maybe Desktop Pictures, or maybe even icons/widgits color).
In my experience the vast amount of people want the following:
1) A good point an click e-mail program (preferably supporting HTML) This is still lacking! Maybe Netscape 5.0 will give us that.
2) A simple, easy to use web browser. Netscape 5.0, based on Mozilla could be great!
3) Word Processor like Microsoft Word with spelling under lining features, and simple but functional formating controls (like Microsoft Works 1.0 for Macintosh). AbiWord could do great here (when it's ready)!
4) Being able to print easily.
5) One click access to all of these features, on the desktop.
So little needs to be done to get this done. It can be done okay, today, but wait 6 months, and you'll find it is ready for the masses.
Joe Blow could care less about source code, or enlightenment or configuring advanced settings.
Leave them to the system adminstator. What?! Joe Blow is the system admin? Well, then we do need to intergrate GUI tools better.
Linux today, has the technology today to be vastly point and click adminstation, but in my experience no distro does a good job at showing them.
You would be hard pressed to find me a setting that you can not point and click on a Linux system (assuming you have the graphical tool installed.
KDE and GNOME are great, appealing to their own groups of people. Now if they just work together better, that would be great!
Simple things. You can do better!
KEEP THE GREAT WORK UP GNOME AND KDE TEAMS!
Another reason why Office Apps are behind in Linux, is that Linux didn't become a platform to develop large flexable office Applications, until KDE/qt and GNOME/gtk+ were released.
Yes, their was older toolkits, but many of them were limited, ugly or preformed horribly. (examples: Athena, Motif). Lesstif is a new thing, that finally allowed workable Motif apps to run on Linux for nothing.
A good office program needs a good desktop enviroment behind it to work good, and compete modernly. APIs need to be in place from the desktop enviroment to work. That's what KDE and GNOME are all about. They provide APIs that make good office software possible.
Office programs are quickly catching up, the speed of development in Linux is faster then most commerical development (what desktop enviroment has recieved a full featured desktop, a powerful imaging program and a office program in like 3 years?). Microsoft Windows didn't have a really good image editing program until like 1993 to 1994. Windows 3.1 was hardly a full featured intergrated desktop, it had many holes, and often required editing text files. DOS mode programs were the norm in the first few years. Windows 98 was the first version of Windows that fully intergrated the Internet into WIndows.
The Mac OS didn't grow up over night either. Early versions of it were limited, you could run one program at the time, painting on a 9 inch screen was pretty limited, some of the first office choices sucked pretty bad (you want MacWrite or MacWrite with that machine?, MS Word for Macintosh was a distance awy).
It takes time. But if history shows the progress of a rapidly growing OS, Linux will become full featured sometime from 2000 to 20001.
Keep watching, developing, and enjoying!
I'm sorry, I screwed up!
The network connection manager will do much more: like letting applications request a connection, bring down the connection, etc. It's exactly that, a network connection *manager*. Please read the list articles for more details.
This is all my fault for leaving the kde-devel summary to the last minute.
.kahl/netmgr/index2.html and the list articles for all the proper details.
The network connection manager is meant to do more than just trivially detect whether the line is up or down. It will allow apps to request that the line be brought up or down, and more... It may or may not be implemented with CORBA, but the goal is to make sure KDE and GNOME don't do this in incompatible ways.
Maybe check out Bjoern's page: http://home.netsurf.de/bjoern
But when a process allocates some *shared* memory, it won't be freed by the kernel once it has died. And there are sometimes leaks this way.
seb.
--
Memory fault -- brain fried
I extend your line of questioning to display it's absurdity
And I question your extension of the line of questioning to display it's absurdity.
- Why doesn't everyone focus on writing good apps for Windows instead of Linux?
Because Windows sucks. Don't you read slashdot?
- Why do companies waste time developing non-intel processors?
Because they are heathen infidels.
- Why do people around the world waste time learning/reading/writing/speaking non-english languages?
That is a damn good question. I have often wondered that myself. It would make my life much easier.
- Why do students waste time doing problems listed in their books instead of inventing new problems?
Because the professors are too lazy to come up with interesting novel problems. They are far too busy psychologically abusing their graduate students.
- Why do we need a dozen search engines?
Because they all suck. In combination, they suck a little less.
- Why do all these little countries need their own government?
Again, that is a damn good question. We should just all get together and agree that our governements suck, then find one that sucks less than the others, and let them take over. Perhaps Canada. They seem to be doing fairly well. Or Holland.
- Why do we need all these programming languages. Can't everyone use Java for everything?
Err, don't you mean perl?
I'm told that this will happen. Matthias Ettrich (kwm author and KDE founder) is supposedly working with several sombodies at creating a standard "applet" protocol. When that happens, I'll have those mods in KBiff within a day or so.
For the record, I was going to put direct GNOME panel support into kbiff but didn't for two reasons:
1) I couldn't get the gnome system working until *very* recently
2) As soon as I got it working, I heard of the common applet collaboration and decided not to waste my time on code that would be thrown away in a few months.
Frankly speaking, it doesn't matter. Certain individuals have made it clear in this thread and in many others that they have no intention of co-operating. Again, it doesn't matter.
As you can see from this thread, there *are* developers from both sides that are more than willing to co-operate. That's what it takes -- people that will do the actual work. If there is a clear consensus that co-operation and shared protocols are a Good Thing *AND* there is code to back that up, then those who stand in the way will simply get overruled or swept aside.
It's in the best interest of both users and developers from both sides to go this route. Recalcitrant individuals can do nothing more than slow the process down...
> KDE already works pretty good on lesser known *nixes, such as SC0, AIX, or *BSD.
And *ahem* Solaris. It's picking up a bit of popularity here at Sun actually, but it's a long way off from replacing the well-entrenched CDE. Here's my immediate impresson of why:
1. Inertia, retraining, ego. Things KDE can't do a whole lot about. Not a small item, and will be a major inhibiting factor even if KDE were superior in *every* respect.
2. KDE does not support multiheaded displays. Many apps like kwm act strangely when started on a second display. Alt-F2 on any display still uses the first display.
3. No IMAP support in kmail. kmail also doesn't perform any kind of locking as far as I can tell, and isn't mailx compliant. dtmail, the standard CDE mail program, which replaces mailtool (sadly) is klunky beyond belief but is reasonably powerful. IMAP is an absolute must. vcard and LDAP support will probably soon be requirements as well.
4. A calendar that supports CDE's dtcal standard and takes attachments dragged out of kmail onto the calendar icon. Do one better than CDE by giving some actual feedback when it's dropped, and not just silently dropping appointments if the calendar isn't running (which amazingly, is what happens now)
5. Preferred web browser support. Solaris 2.7 has a one-click web-browser icon on the panel (the funky looking globe clock). It will launch either netscape or hotjava, using the equivalent of netscape-wrapper for both, in that it will not launch new processes if one exists, just open new windows.
Oh, and KDE compiles just fine with devpro, which is what cc is on my system.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
> (a) MS developed DOS ? IBM did and (regrettably) passed development over the MS in 88 or something.
IBM, with all its expertise, somehow couldn't find anyone who knew anything about small-footprint operating systems at all, so they got Micro-Soft, a compiler vendor with no OS development experience at all to pick one out for them. MS picked a hacked-up piece of crap called QDOS, handed it over to IBM, with the stipulation that MS be allowed to develop their own version in the future. IBM agreed.
Sad thing is, not much else would have run with any acceptable performance, given the corners cut on the hardware. But then it wouldn't have been affordable, Apple would have annihilated the PC makers, and it would be Steve Jobs in front of a judge now.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
No, you're just one of the annoying ones who pontificates upon this fact. Go back to your starbucks and microbrews, "drug-free" boy.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
> hat the GPL cannot be used with any non-GPL libraries
...
the exact sitation is : if you want to mix GPl with non-GPL:
- the other licence must allow everything the GPL allowes
- the other licence may only restrict stuff also restricted by the GPL. more exact: may not have clauses not found in the GPL.
thus, it's possible to mix GPL'ed software with much other stuff. as long as at least as much is allowed, and not more is restricted.
example licences, where this is true:
LGPL, BSD, XFREE, Apache, Artistic
examples of licences with additional clauses, but still free software: MPL and QPL
please let the "GPL only with GPL" syndrom die.
GPL with LGPL, GPL with BSD and such stuff is very common and a good counter example. or even better: read the licence. i always wonder how many people didn't
Let me see if I can make this as unbiased as possible for I really *DO* like Linux...
Windows applications are GUI. Period.
Linux applications are half GUI, half Console, and half hidden configuration files.
Windows sets up it's hardware with EASE.
Linux drags it's ass and then you *STILL* have to be a genius to get PnP working right for just 3 cards.
Windows is far ahead in the game and there are many more well-designed applications for doing what you want, so productivity and time it takes to get used to it are a lot better then Linux which...
...which has a million applications to do the same thing but 90% of them were designed for the console or by people that use the console a lot, so they are either very badly designed GUI's or need a *TON* of configuration.
Windows is a pre-smoothed GUI so out of the box everything looks good (relatively speaking, that is).
Linux on the other hand needs hours to get things working right, and that is IF you know what you are doing. I still to this day haven't figured out how to install and use another font in, say, the titlebars in E (other then installing a theme with it included). And truetype fonts? I still haven't seen them on my machine yet, still looks like hell.
Now, back to my biased side here...
Now I love Linux and I love to play with it and all but that is just it... play. I can't get anything done when it comes to work or anything else because Linux's GUI is so rough. Even working with Gnome & E, the applications are still tough to grasp. I have spent literally hours working at getting Linux usable for working and by that point, I don't want to work anymore, I want to go watch TV or go out or SOMETHING other then sitting in front of the computer. It's really frustrating.
Now I saw a truely good idea in that recent install program by Caldera, and I don't see why people are knocking it because it'll make installation 10 times easier. Granted, Redhat's install is fairly easy, it still lacks details that I'd love to know. Like that question... "What services do you want running on startup?" How the hell should I know? I think I know what 2 of them are.. sendmail and I forget the other.
Now, no offense or anything, but I put my money on the fact that if your mom got onto a Windows machine she'd start doing things faster almost instantly. She'd probably also catch onto the GUI a lot faster.
8Complex
The daemon aims to be more portable. Not everyone feels the need to be burdened by a GPL'd kernel, or by Linux ya know.
The revolution will be mocked
...I still want to hear about an Enlightenment/WindowMaker partnership...
Now that would be one slick combination...
just waiting to hear more from Rasterman about how E's development is coming...
can't wait..
------------------------------------------
Reveal your Source, Unleash the Power. (tm)
I think things might not be so bad as that. Those small applications couldn't have been all that much work, in the scheme of things. (Not to put-down the applications, certainly!) It seems to me to be wiser to consider them to be simple test cases of the greater architecture of GNOME or KDE.
Which brings us to the next point, which would be: "Yeah, but isn't the simultaneous development of GNOME and KDE a waste of resources?"
Were it the case that we knew exactly how we want to go in the desktop-look-and-feel arena, I would say yes. But do we? I personally see GNOME and KDE not as a dangerous schism (though it once was, and could be again in the future), but rather as two experimental designs that could merge to the final product.
It's not always good for everyone to agree. The increased contemplation that accompanies a disagreement could spur more innovation. It's just good old-fashioned competition.
We just need to keep the competition healthy and friendly, and pray for some compatibility.
I can't wait. I really want to install Linux on my moms computer. :-) Cooperation here will hopefully speed up Linux On the Desktop.
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
ummm. ya. In general you can already do that. infact, you don't have to actually run either WM, just have the libraries and such installed. Thats what I do....
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
You're right - Shift+Restart is the same as exiting Windows to DOS and then typing WIN to restart Windows. This is usually OK because most Windows users will have no drivers running in DOS.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Ah - but here's the problem. (My understanding is that any 'compound document' whether OLE or OpenParts is potentially an executable.) Sometimes you actually might wish to have scripts running automatically. (Think of JavaScript web pages for example.) As Microsoft has proved, flashing a "Do you really want to do this?" dialog box is no protection against stupid users.
You can get around this by sandboxing, but the solution in Lotus Notes and MS Office 2000 is the ability to have all script macros cryptographically signed. An administrator-controlled excution control list defines what runs and what can't run. A client-server approach might also work, but it's looking like both Gnome and KDE are pretty much desktop-oriented, and some sort of controlling server might not jibe with Linux culture.
Anyways, the standard Unix security answer of "it's a user space issue" ain't going to be good enough here. All MS Office viruses running under NT are user space only, and they're still raising plenty of hell.
It's great to see that minds are converging on this issue. This give open projects a chance to develop a much better implementation than Microsoft, as well as develop an alternative to OLE/COM, which is pretty much the only game in town as far as user apps go.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Yeah, it is nice but don't you think it is quite idiotic that each of them comes with it's own help system, notepad, wordpad, bunch of _the same_ games and all kinds of other applets. I mean, it is simply waste of developers time. I can understand having to different desktops to choose from but what's the point of duplicating efforts creating all thoses little apps - instead of having dozen "advanced editors" I would rather have one that actually works. I know it is all free and practically nobody gets directly paid for doing all this stuff which makes harder for people to bitch about it but still, I they should do something about this nonsense. Maybe something will change ...
I do not see anything absurd in my original question. It is one thing to have choice of different word processing software and another to have 10 notepad clones on your system.
I am saying that it is Saturday morning and you are definately trying to piss me off. But that's OK - it is your right, specially on a day when I don't feel up to your level of irony...
I would like to either see all GTK and QT applications supporting the panel of both KDE and Gnome eventually, or at least making it very easy for the user to switch at runtime with a parameter!
That way applications like KBiff, etc could be used under Gnome, and those like GTop and the Pager could be used under KDE. *That* would rock.
I'm sure these talks about Corba and compatibility between the KDE and Gnome implementations is definitely a step in the right direction.
... collaborating and working along with one another? A short while ago, to suggest something like this would have generated a 300 post flame war on /.
How far we've come... I hope we've all learned something along the way too.
None of the sides wants to see their hard work being wasted just because some inexplicable whim favoured the other side. Therefore there is a natural tendency for collobaration.
You say that the hardest part is the widget set?
OK! Then this is the challenge then of the month:
#define The unifying widgetset for Gnome and Kay.
send + more == money?
What kinda AC humorless moron are you?
The right to joke is everymans god given right... (or nature given, or whatever)
A world (or Slashdot) without humor is a world I don't want to live in
--Natalie Portman, topless
I think the point is that if KDE and Gnome cooperate,
you'll be able to run all apps with only one desktop
installed. That'd be the goal anyway.
Its bad because:
Personally I would like either Gnome "or" Kde. I do not want Gnome "and" Kde. Here is why:
I don't want to have two sets of libraries on my machine taking up twice the memory/disk they should. If one choice is made, then less bloat.
This will inevitably add to feature bloat so they will be "compatible".
Its good because:
Its a good baby step towards cooperation that may lead to one widget/library set being dropped.
Thats a dream eh?
Also recommended reading: Havoc's (sorry, forgot his last name!) weekly GNOME updates (availible from gnome.org). They paint a nice warm and fuzzy picture of GNOME and KDE getting along great, and they're pretty interesting. So both sides admit it; it's gotta be true!
Though I would recommend not reading the gnome-kde mailing list (also availible at gnome.org) unless it relates to you. There is of course disagreement on the issues as they come up. I tried reading it, got scared, and am now happy with having my news filtered through GNOME weekly news. I lose details, but I can still be a Pollyana.
This is true, (it's probably more like going
into single-user mode and then comming straigt
back up). But I think the point was that
it was a trick for restarting windows quickly.
So, depending on how you use linux, this
trick is _functionally_equivilent_ to restarting
X, because it takes about the same time.
Linux _has_ an advantage for people who do
a lot of their work from the console though.
(Like me).
I said that it's a perception. That some people believe this to be reality is unfortunate.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
"Its a good baby step towards cooperation that may lead to one widget/library set being dropped"
Having a choice of widgets/libraries is as important to a developer as having a choice of desktops is to the user.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
One thing not mentioned in this snippet, but which I've started to notice, is that KDE, and KOffice in particular, is moving more and more towards using the Artistic License.
There is a perception (right or wrong) that the GPL cannot be used with any non-GPL libraries. Since Qt is free and open, but not GPL, there were many unwilling to touch the KDE code base. Strangely enough, by making KDE code Artistic, it will perceived to be more compatible with the GPL than if it remained GPL.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
This was bound to happen sooner or later. After all, the developers themselves tend not to have these silly "KDE (sux|roolz)! GNOME (roolz|sux)!" attitudes...
Isn't it "Pennington"?
GNOME roolz, you mean. Or perhaps GNOME r00lz. :)
Word on the street is that version 4.0 of XF86 should finally be kickin' it. Of course I agree with you that the current X, though laudable for its ever-improving hardware support and the dedication of its developers, has become a dinosaur. And that doesn't even mention the memory leaks! (I've found X can swell up to over 30 megs of RAM or more if I don't restart it).
In general, though, I would advise anyone who plans to use either GNOME or KDE to buy 32 more megs of RAM than they would for a similar Windows box. At current memory prices (about $40 for that DIMM), that's still cheaper than buying Win 98.
--JZ
will be the establishment of the common CORBA mappings. I'd love to see KDE's KOM/Open Parts component model broaden to the point where I can easily write an app in GTK+ or GTK--, throw a KOM wrapper around it, and then use it seamlessly with KDE KOM parts. Imagine... A Gnumeric spreadsheet embedded in KWord!
--JZ
I'm gonna miss it.
This is my signature. There are many signatures like it but this one is mine..
Having been very pro-gnome for a long time (I like the user interface much better then KDE), I have to day that I am frankly disapointed w/ the attitude that the GNOME guys (and in particular one who disagreed with ideas floating around and allready wrote:
"Anyways, I guess we are going to do what we think is correct; and you guys are going to do what you think is correct."
(If you really want to know who wrote that, read the gnome-kde list).
Wake up and smell the jolt. I am writing this on a NT 2000 box. The last thing Linux needs is for two of the small camps to be engaged in bickering. Yes.. There probibly is a better way to write something, but in the interest of "open specification and working together" deal.
Let's quite the politics game. Use whatever you like. Just don't say anything unless you accept you are both right and wrong at the same time.
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I think it is better to treat developers as developers and not as ambassadors.
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Jee, the things you learn from the bickering between two ACs.
--
So are satan and hussein coming soon?
Under the Gnome distro on the RH6 CD, Netscape Communicator swells up and brings X and my 64 megs to their knees every few days. Everything just locks up and then it's Ctrl-Alt-Backspace (becauase the Gnome logout selection on the panel doesn't seem to be connected to any code most of the time). I'm really looking forward to a leaner and meaner Mozilla.
Would you care to post the FULL details of your tremendously insightful "Scientific" study so we may all share the benefit of your great wisdom?
Dude, don't let 'em catch you referring to either as a "WM"! The politically correct term I have been advised is "Desktop Environment".
You'll be on Springer before you can say - Enlightenment!
C'mon be a little less narrow minded.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
Think about it. One of them has to come first. Who's blowing the debate out of proportion again? Him or you?
-----------------------
I extend your line of questioning to display it's absurdity
- Why doesn't everyone focus on writing good apps for Windows instead of Linux?
- Why do companies waste time developing non-intel processors?
- Why do people around the world waste time learning/reading/writing/speaking non-english languages?
- Why do students waste time doing problems listed in their books instead of inventing new problems?
- Why do we need a dozen search engines?
- Why do all these little countries need their own government?
- Why do we need all these programming languages. Can't everyone use Java for everything?
That's sure is great for the people that cannot decide which one is better. Soon they will be able to run an application written for either WM on the other (or at least one hopes).
Lat3r
Signatures are supposed to be funny?
Some of you are missing one very important point. :)
one of the mayor issues over linux is the fight over the two interfaces. And which one is really better. In one hand we have that for a GNOME user in a way its better because KDE users are pushing the limits, and GNOME wants to stay on track (JUST AN EXAMPLE LET'S NOTRAISE THE DUST!) so the development goes along pushed, in way. On the hand one of the biggest alies Microcrap(TM)(C) is the fact that they have developed a standart. (Right Dos... what 'standart') but is true no matter how bad the standart is, this has launched them as a stable source of DEVELOPMENT!!! not any other kind of... stable. Thus gaining more confidence in new programmers, and/or newbie users who really never had a choice. There is no confusion... just one interface. If the two efforts could some how collide in one big project (KDE+GNOME)...(most of are screaming enlightment i know... but let's leave it there for moment) a single more modern interface running on top of X could consolidate a very serious threat towards the beast in redmond. And u all know what that means... more pinguin users
Sometimes you need something simple. I mean I'd rather play my atari vcs than a playstation or nintendo anyday. Simple addictive play. And the TRS-80, How can anything that runs off of Extended Color Basic be bad.
Using a perty window manager may be a step forward, but so is Windows 2000. People should be free to use anything that they want without being attacked for not being in the heighth of fashion.
Yes, but if X were halfway decent, it would detect this and free them itself. That's like saying that there should be memory leaks in the kernel because apps forget to free() all of their memory. Everywhere else in Unix, once the process dies, all its resources are freed.
I thought Stallman announced when the QPL was released that it qualified as free software. Wouldn't this mean that it is compatable with the GPL?
Now the question naturally arises, "Which solution is best for the community as a whole"? Should we unify the codebase, thinking that a standard interface would promote application development? Or should we just cooperate and come up with a CORBA standard, but not necessarily an identical codebase, in the hope that such a move would encourage folks to write applications to that standard API and yet not alienate others who like their way of doing things(i.e., there is the die-hard gtk+ developer and the die-hard qt developer, one or both of whom could be angered, depending on the implementation). But what about just sticking with the status quo, where a little cooperation exists, but not nearly enough to come up with a standard CORBA API. After all, it seems to have worked pretty well so far, right?
Now let us examine the options we have at hand. KDE, since it uses C++, tends to put off alot of traditional C developers, and GNOME, being C, tends to have very few apps developed for it in C++. Now we could have a big argument about the relative merits of each language, but in my opinion that's pointless, because what we need here is choice--the choice to develop your application in whatever language you are most comfortable using(within reason, of course). Of course, we could do that by consolidating KDE and GNOME and merely maintaining two widget sets, but to me that seems rather pointless, for simplicity and utility is the philosophy of Linux and U*ix in general, so there is really no need for creating a lot of confusion by having a "standard" which isn't really a standard. It would be standard in the sense that all the applications would be written for that single environment, but it would simultaneously be non-standard in that for one desktop environment we actually have two developmental trees, which would probably lead to having two of everything anyway.
On the other hand, we could let things remain as they are, but the disadvantage of doing that is that a developer is forced towrite his application to one environment or the other, or go through a huge amount of effort to make sure that his program is compatible with both standards. This is obviously a great waste of time and energy which could be expended in developing a new application.
Now we come to the solution which I prefer, namely, the development of a standard CORBA API through collaboration between the KDE/GNOME developers. This solution does not, of course, come without its own pitfalls and minefields as well. For instance, both KDE and GNOME could become very bloated in the process of becoming compatible with each other. This is a legitimate concern, but considering the code that we have seen from KDE/GNOME, I believe the developers there are capable of preventing this situation from occuring, and this way the programmer has a real choice as to which language he wishes to use, and doesn't need to compromise by writing to one environment only. It also serves to promote choice for the user as well, since there would ideally be two desktop environments, each with its own respective strengths and weaknesses as interpreted by the user. I don't think we really these environments to convert to the Windows philosophy of a one-size-fits-all Environment for Everyone.
I'm sure that there are things I left out, but this was intended to provoke thoughtful dialogue, so if you have any ideas or input then please, by all means, post them here. I am certain that there are many other things we could do besides the three I came up with. What we need before making any decisions about the direction which GNOME and KDE will follow is a debate as to the merits of each option, so that we may be assured that the one we select to implement(or not, as the case may be) is the right choice.
All that I can say is I really *really* hope that KDE doesn't make any stability sacrifices in order to be more GNOME-compliant.... If I want a really pretty and slightly crashy desktop with incredible themes and a screwy file manager that doesn't do what I tell it to, I use KDE2.0 (the CVS version.)
It is really sweet. As a matter of fact, I'm posting from it right now- using Netscape. I have heard the complaints about it and I know why they exist- but as far as stability goes, Netscape makes the Konqueror look like a rickety bridge across a deep chasm. And Netscape crashes on me if I leave it on for more than an hour at a time... So far, the Konqueror has some really neat features and it is showing some real promise- but as DFaure says it's not ready for mass usage yet.
I have had absolutely no real stability issues though, not with the stable versions of KDE. When I feel like taking a break, I go ahead and use KDE1.1.1- and I do use GNOME from time to time. Damn, I have to say this at least- on an AMD K6-2 300, with 64MB of RAM, it is sure perty... the problem is that it crashes at least as much as the KDE2.0/Konqueror combination. GNOME+GMC crashes and I am left with the haunting "gdk: an x io error occurred" line on the command prompt all too often when I do use GNOME. Altogether though, I'm glad that it does at least drop me back to the command line- at least the entire system doesn't require a reboot....
I don't think anyone is going to disagree about the fact that the cooperation between KDE and GNOME is beneficial. I don't think that one of the two widget sets will be adopted, however. In my opinion, there will be many widget sets--Qt, Gtk+, and others--each of them talking to an environment that combines the features and interfaces from both KDE and GNOME.
I think the LSB should move in this area. Now don't get started--the LSB is attempting the address the "normal user," not hackers like you and I. Hackers like you and I like to fiddle around with stuff--it's why we're hackers. And Linux in its current state satisfies our needs beautifully.
While the mainstream Linux distributions search for uniformity and standards compliance, there will always be the rogues, the hackers--you can't change that, and it would be stupid to try. But for everyone else, starting with a uniform standard base will be the way to go.
I can't wait to see a desktop environment that will be friendly--nay, designed--for both KDE and GNOME applications.
--Jean-Paul Alderac
Not every on uses the console. I have my linux machine boot right up to KDE. When X dies, so does most of my work. You can say what you want, but editing documents, programming, drawing, is much easier under a GUI than console. With the GUI you can do a bunch of things at the same time without swaping between consoles to see them.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...