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Lotus Releases Domino R5 For Linux
Lotus Domino R5 was finally released by Lotus. It's a "sneak preview" version-so be prepared to deal with bugs methinks. But it's cool to see that they done what they said they'd do.
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It's cool though - bring it on!
is it?
You're better off with a fax machine. Or a couple tin cans and some string.
just think: a unix box running a windows emulator running notes....or better you could run a unix box running a windows emulator running ms vm running notes java client!!
-- your knees hurt, don't they?
For the most part, this post is accurate. However, Notes is not really an integreated environemnt of 3 apps (email, web, dbs.) Its a development environment. Like any development environment, it is strong for some types of applications, weak for others. The point is to find its strngths and use them. Its strongest feature right now is web development. Now that it exists for Linux, who cares that no client i there. The Notes client is not where its at. Use a browser, use Linux for the server, and you've got a good web environment.
1. Its interface in bizarre and unintuitive. Yeah, wherea a command line interface is much more user-friendly to the average secretery out there. 2.Its search tool totally blows. You can type "John Hobs" and it will be completly unable to find "John Hobbs." But it just might find "Theresa Hulshult." ??? Which search tool? The old serach engine or the new one? Or did you not know that you can program your own search functionality if you need it? And exactly what alternative are you suggesting here? 3. Slower than a (insert a witty comparison here). Yeah, I grant you this one. 4. Until 4.6 it was amazingly unstable. It would crash 5 times more often than windoze 95! Strange to think that IBM has more money than God but it takes them until *release 4.6* to make their product stable. I dont know who your admin was. We ran just great without crashes. Guess we just knew how to run it better. :) 5. The message box that simply states "Cannot execute the desired action." (Translated to english: double your Notes support costs.) error message were changed to be more menaingful in R5. Also, any developer worth a damn fixes these errors. Hire better people. Now which obscure menu to I pull down to see the headers? Now which obscure wizard do I navigate to create a filter? Now which obscure form must I trudge through to see the headers? (Translated to english: triple your Notes support costs.) Headers? Filter? headers? What the hell are you asking for? Which piece of Notes are you talking about? 7. Those idiotic hieroglyphs when you're typing in your password. you mean the security feature? Where you can see if your pictures are different and know you types the wor gpassword without hitting enter, thereby not giving people over your shoulder 12 chances to read your password as you keep re-typing it? That is its purpose. Do some research before you speak. 8. It's a memory pig. God forbid I open Notes *and* Microsloth Turd at the same time! Again, I grant you this one. :) 9. Stupid proprietary mail protocol. So use your own. Nobody ever said you have to use Notes Mail. Plus, R5 has better integration with industry standards, anyway. 10. The Notes server has now been up for a total of *two days!* Let's all celebrate! I detect a trend here. Hire better admins. I've had Notes servers under 4.6 run for 6 months straight. Bottom line: A Notes installation is as good as its admins and developers. Sounds like you have bad ones. Notes does have its issues, but you arent; really even looking into solutions, you are ranting. Do some research, and hire better people.
So long as Perl and MySQL exist, there is no need to waste money on non-standard, poorly-documented, bloated, and most annoyingly *non-relational* database packages.
Errrr, the last version of MySql that I played with *didn't* support foreign keys... I ended up dealing with the relations in my own code... Has something changed in the last 2 months to remedy that?
There's one thing I've missed out that Notes does do extremely well though - it locks you and all your data into a proprietary application on proprietary platforms forevermore.
Why do all that? Enable POP3 or IMAP and use your handy dandy pop or imap client. Joel
Lotus Notes on some platforms such as AIX was crashing nightmare. It literally would get smoked several times a day at one point with numerous problems including the HTTP process and IMAP hangs. The servers themselves would be fine.
It was very far from being a stable product. It was bad and has only (should I dare say it) become more stable in the last few releases for 4.6
I'm also talking somewhere near 10,000 users on around 12 servers with multiple partitions
Is it a decent product? Could be.
Does the 'patch' method of upgrades suck? Yes
Are peoples mail databases big bloated files? Yes
Is remote use like watching paint dry? Yes
It does absolutely nothing you can't do with a good quality database, a free web server, forms, Perl/PHP, sendmail and a POP3 server, an LDAP server and a few other bits and pieces
Hello...ever notice how long your list was getting? You've only touched on a fraction of the things that Domino can do, and it's all one package. Are you trying to tell me that administering all those separate pieces is easier than running a Domino server? Nevermind tying all those separate pieces together to work as a cohesive unit...
I'm not saying that Notes/Domino is the answer for everything or that it's perfect. But don't discount the powerful flexibility it provides. Disconnected users? OK. Synchronization of data between remote sites? OK. Clustering for failover and load balancing? OK. Need your app. over the web? OK. Variety of mail users (Notes client, web client, POP and IMAP)? OK. Need to customize your email database? OK. Lightweight directory for disconnected users? OK. Integration of email with Calendaring and Scheduling. OK. Real-time connections to other data sources? OK. Transactional logging of server databases? OK. Remote server administration? OK. Encryption? OK. Update an app. via server (no need to visit desktops when enhancing a database or app)? OK. I could go on, but the point is that Domino is extremely flexible...and utilizes open standards (it may not be open source, but at least it doesn't try to warp standards like a certain behemoth).
There's one thing I've missed out that Notes does do extremely well though - it locks you and all your data into a proprietary application on proprietary platforms forevermore.
Huh? I 'spose you mean that Domino is not open source, and therefore proprietary. But if that's your definition, then how is Linux a proprietary platform?
Regardless of that, what's this about "locking"? Domino doesn't "lock" your data anywhere. It may "house" it in it's own format, but it's certainly not locked (assuming proper security access). Yet somehow you think it's locked forever... Besides, Domino can utilize other data (SQL, Oracle, DB2, ERP systems, etc).
Nobody said you had to use Domino R5. At least be accurate when you spew...
well, its true, but all that trouble for the sake of using Linux is worth it
Domino Designer is now my favorite development tool. I can do more things with Domino than I can with other systems. It has built in HTML, Java, JavaScript, VB (LotusScript), POP3, IMAP, SMTP, NNTP, LDAP, etc... suport. I don't need to use all of those, but it's great that you visually create a form and Domino converts everything for you for each http (or Native Notes) request. It can cluster and auto-replicate across Domio servers running on mixed/matched platforms including NT, Unix, OS/2, As/400, mainframes, and now Linux. Most of the time, the built-in object store is sufficient. However, it also can connect to relational databases if needed. Incidentally, did you know that the HTTP server for Domino was originally created with the Notes C++ API and noting was changed internally? That was over 2 years ago. Obviously, they have now built the http server into the core of Domino, but I think that shows how extenisble that thing really is.
Posted by Robert M:
By releasing the domino server for linux, what lotus is trying to doing is reduce the cost of setting up a notes based network in a small-to-medium sized office.
By using linux as the base platform for the server, the office still gets the functionality of the domino server but also the added bonus of a proxy server, DNS, firewall and all the other networking functions in linux what are provided for free. This for simply the cost of the domino server (what they would have needed to purchased anyway) and a copy of linux.
btw-
i have been told by my sources, that lotus does infact plan to release a version of the notes client in the near future.
Actually, Lotus is not a "linux cronie" as you put it. They are reaching for ANY platform and inroad they can get. Anyone who has worked with ccMail and Notes 4.6 knows that they are TERRIBLE pieces of bloatware....and R5 is no different. My company is implementing the entire Domino Notes package in order to get rid of that crap Organizer/ccMail combination and I can say first hand that Notes R5 ran like a used up whore on my P2-350. It does provide a java interface for those of us using Linux but guess what...there is no Spell Checker. IMHO, it blows.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
If you do not see the value in notes, you were not using it properly. As an email client, it's not that special. But if you work into it all of the databases available, including custom designed databases (which are simple to build), throw in the workflow, and all the various ways to work with it (pop3, imap, http, etc) it's an incredible system. Oh wait, sorry, forgot, pine is much better then this.
Added to which, Notes has an interface that takes the cake for being nonintuitive. It really is a disgusting piece of turd.
What is Notes? Basically a proprietary version of everything you already use, with some retarded window dressing they call "value add".
I'm one of the poor souls who's employer forces him to use Lotus Notes for certian things.
While I wouldn't say I'm so militant as to refuse to work for any company that uses notes, I do agree that Notes is largely a joke.
There is absolutely nothing that Notes can do that a decent mime compliant mail client combined with a simple "intranet" web server can't do equally well, and using open protocols to boot.
On the other side of this coin, I'm delighted in Lotus's decision to support Linux.
Whether I like notes or not, it has big credibility, and the fact that Domino now exists for Linux, increases Linux's credibility as well. This is a good thing.
Methinks this was probably a typo or a severe misunderstanding. If outsourcers have a community, I'd be pretty surprised.
-NooM
Oh wait, sorry, forgot, pine is much better then this.
Well, lessee, it takes pine less than one second to load. It takes notes, on my pII-333 w/128MB of ram, about 5. When pine loads, if I have less than 100 or so messages waiting, they're already available. When notes loads, I have to log in, because notes is designed to run on an operating system that is not multi-user, and does not enforce privacy at login time. If I, god forbid, had 100 messages waiting in notes, I could be pretty assured of at least a 2 or 3 minute wait for the _HEADERS_ of the messages to come up. Getting the actual messages is another wait. Whee.
Pine doesn't give a damn what protocol you use to fetch your mail. Notes 'databases' are the bane of my existance. They aren't databases, they're nicely formatted text files with stupid, clumsy interfaces. It's a _markup language_. Think HTML, but Sloooooooooooooooower.
Workflow? If you need someone else to tell you how to work, you're indicative of all that's wrong with today's (well, not like it's a new thing, but..) IS/IT workforce.
Explain to me again how wasting a _lot_ of my time makes notes better than pine?
I actually sit, in NT, with a telnet window open for mail, because waiting for it makes me apopleptic with anger.
obDomino: It's a web server that's capable of serving those notes 'databases.' As such, it has loads of value to all companies too lame to USE AN SQL-AWARE DATABASE like god intended them to. It also uses like 80 bajillion megs of RAM to run, and is pretty limited, from what people have told me, in its ability to hack together the sort of real world web sites that most companies actually use.
--
Blue, who supposes you'll start telling me how it's better than vim, next. Or mysql. Or apache.
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
The main problem I have with Notes is the people who use it. At our shop, we store a great deal in Notes - documentation, forms, internal memos, etc. (i.e. all the forms to fill out to request stuff are all in a Notes database). This in itself is nice. The problem is that each and every one of these things is an attached MS Word document. Yup, if you want to put a document on Notes here, the accepted procedure is to write it in Word, attach it, and then save it in a Notes database... (this, of course becomes a nightmare when you want to update it ( Open, Detach, Open in Word, Save, Delete attachment, Re attach new document), but no one seems to care, which mystifies me). The weird thing is that most of the doumentation in the databases could just as easily be written in Notes' internal word processor (most could be written in Emacs with no loss of meaning whatsoever).
Notes may be a pig (yes), may be annoying (yes), may be useless (not), but it's problems can pale in comparison the the problems the users can have.
Don't worry too much about it. I don't think there is an R5 cient for any platform other than Win32. So it's not like they snubbed Linux or anything.
Are you trying to make a case for Domino? Did you notice how long your list of components was? ...and that does not even cover the entire feature set. You will need the following items to equal one installation of Domino and Domino designer. * A fast HTTP server * POP3 server * SMTP Server * IMAP " * LDAP * JVM * NNTP * A clustering tool that supports load balancing across multiple platforms (Unix, NT, as/400, os/2) * A database replicator that supports the same platforms * The IDE stuff could go on forever. (HTML, VB, Java, Javascript) * Of course, you will need a database. * I'm getting tired of this. The point is, the Domino server seemlessly integrates and supports open standards and much of it is generated for you based on your visually designed forms. * Did I mention com/dcom/iiop/corba ? What do you mean proprietary? Does all of that sound proprietary? Hell, you don't even need a Notes client to work with a Domnio server or vice versa anymore! This is not Notes Notes version 3 from 1993. Wake up!
Actually, with the release of R5 Notes, Lotus is shipping CD's with only one client, win32. You can't get it on any other platform unless you go back to R4.6. And they don't plan on porting R5 to any other client platforms, ever. (But then, last January Jeff Papows said they wouldn't ever release a Linux Domino server either).
It would not be advisable to do admin or dev using R4.6 but would be okay if you're just a lowly mail user. Even in this case, you'd have to convince the admin to allow you to use the R4.6 design for your mail database. Also, some applications developed under R5 would not function properly with an R4.6 client.
In many larger environments, enabling POP3 on a server would cause consternation among the admins. Capacity planning, security concerns, etc... It would be politically easier to run the R5 win32 client on WINE, (if not technically easier).
Just my two cents.
I have little experience with domino, but have heard great things about the last version. I hope it can start making a larger name in the market.
IANAL, but I play one on
If you say you'e sticking to MySQL and using that as a comparison to a Notes db - you have more opinion than experience with the Notes product. Apples & Oranges. For those of you who may be reading this thread in the hope of actually learning anything about this product will hopefully take this into consideration. I've got nothing to gain here, just can't stand misinformation from over-opinionated bit-flippers.
Forgive my whining, but this is the second story I submitted today (after the Red Hat IPO price increase) only to see it posted by someone else. Argh.
For more information, click here.
Over a Web browser, they should already be available.
Just more good applications coming. There, I have said something nice about Linux. I must be a good person.
Sounds like you should have used a local Lotus BP; they would have gotten a test setup for you and given you some hand holding. They're not that expensive (well..I'm not but I know Lotus Consulting is :-) If you mean the R4 mail client, I'd agree. The R5 client is a lot nicer (though it is still missing quoted text which a consultant can add in 5min). Gotta see if it runs under WINE ;-)
... in making a relevant comment -- I just want to be high up in the response section for a change. =)
When do we get the rest of the Lotus packages?
It would shure add to | complete the desk top.
Who owns your data?
Applications: -Server uptime -# of documents/database.
Web server: -Flat HTML pages -Domino web applications -Hits/minute -SSL.
Domino does so much just asking for a benchmarks doesn't make sense if you aren't specific in what you are trying to benchmark.
In my experience, it is better to look that the business problem first, then look at possible technical solution and then benchmark those. At least you have some hope getting a reasonable comparison.
PhunkyP
In all things moderation.
Yeah, Exchange server - there's a place for real data. Security at a folder level only is a great way to run applications. How are e-mail and databases related? Maybe "workflow", like the ability to process a purchase requisition through e-mail? Try doing that in Exchange - you'll end up coding for months and certainly using SQL server or some other real database to get the job done.
A port of Domino can only be good news ... and I can't wait to see benchmarks. Do any of your notes users have the ability to do a little ballpark benchmark?
Geeky modern art T-shirts
Old story which seems apropos, here: A fierce and warlike stone-age jungle island tribe, discovered and introduced into the 20th Century only a few years ago by anthropologists, has recently revealed a previously undiscovered mountain of nearly solid gold which they've been keeping secret since time immemorial. Through unscrupulous international arms brokers, this savage tribe has already traded large portions of their mountain for secondhand nuclear submarines, guided multi-megaton missiles, and dozens of tankers filled with canisters of biological gas weapons. And they have just declared war on the major powers of planet Earth. Even as I type these words, every able-bodied warrior old enough to wear a loin cloth is working night and day, hammering these formidable weapons into hundreds of razor-sharp steel spearheads. S:B^o
I suppose it's nice that there's a Notes server for Linux but it's not much comfort, since I'd have to replace the Linux and Solaris desktop machines with LoseDoze machines to use it.
Notes is a touchy subject right now since the employer is switching over to it and that means no more mail on the Solaris workstation. Somehow having all the engineers share an NT box for e-mail is seen as a productivity advance.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Anyone have an account to use for the download? If reverse DNS does not work for your IP you cannot complete the registration needed for the download.
Share bicycle touring info worldwide: http://wheretocycle.com
I love how people (usually Lotus Business Partners) play this little game of saying they have all these sources/connections at Lotus. The sources always end up stating the obvious anyway. Damn though I can't wait to install the 200MB+ Lotus Notes client on Linux (ahh.. not) :)
i agree my company has actually banned linux on any production system - server or workstation - since it's "implications" are unknown (to management, of course) server OS is easiest to push upon management since noone but techs will get to use it and we are only held accountable for our own actions linux on workstations is a long way off, especially for large corporations, even though a tightly controlled user interface is currently available; management is just too slow to move to "new" technology, especially to something that makes as much sense as linux :->
Just junk the expensive Solaris boxes, and replace them with inexpensive NT boxes. Then everyone gets the same power and stability of Unix AND the compatibility with commodity Windows software. It's a win-win situation (assuming sucker anyone into buying the Solaris boxes off you for anything near what you paid for them).
The solution is to use Exchange public folders. Then the deattach/reattach steps aren't needed. Of course, this means junking Notes for Exchange, but that's a good idea anyway.
I guess if you have no clue how to use Notes, and offer no reasons in your post for your tawdry thoughts, you can't possibly be attacked. Any programmer worth her or his salt can pick up the @Commands & LotusScript very quickly and develop applications that rival anything done in a comparable amount of time in C/C++/Java, especially if it involves data manipulation. Notes can talk to just about any other system in its own language - it goes a lot farther to making the existing proprietary world we deal much better than anything else out there!
Maybe 10% of the stories I post actually get posted and about half of the ones that make it get posted by someone else first.
We finally planning to migrate to Notes on solaris. Much of it is due to headroom - a little known fact but Notes run well in Solaris ( E450 ). Hope they will do the same with Linux too. Another thing is perhaps this will let us fire the Lotus Notes admin who "learns as he goes ..." on the Notes E-mail Server !! This great ... great.
It's a common mistake to associate Notes and NT. Your Notes decision is completely separate from your OS decision, and if someone told you you had to switch to NT to use Notes, they lied. It runs fine on Solaris (both server and client), as well as other Unix flavors, and now Linux as well.
Bloated goats. Our software really sucks ass, Now in Linux.
I seriously doubt a company who is consistently ranked ahead of Microsoft by independent third-party reviewers has to worry much about in-roads. When you take an honest look at R5, you'll be floored by all the protocols and systems to which it can talk. Of course, if you never bother to make Notes flex its muscles, you'll never understand what is so great about it. Get some Notes Developers (or if you know anything about programming yourself) to whip up powerful applications in days that would take months in C/C++/Java and you'll understand. And, oh, you need to use one of those languages - no problem, Notes allows for your files to be imported. Yet another example of its flexibility.
IMNSHO Notes is the absolute worst piece of software I've ever used. Let me list all of the things which I think make it a terrible waste of energy:
... Updating ... Updating ... Notes makes Windows95 look like a masterpiece, and I hate Windows95 bitterly.
1. Its interface in bizarre and unintuitive.
2. Its search tool totally blows. You can type "John Hobs" and it will be completly unable to find "John Hobbs." But it just might find "Theresa Hulshult." ???
3. Slower than a (insert a witty comparison here).
4. Until 4.6 it was amazingly unstable. It would crash 5 times more often than windoze 95! Strange to think that IBM has more money than God but it takes them until *release 4.6* to make their product stable.
5. The message box that simply states "Cannot execute the desired action." (Translated to english: double your Notes support costs.)
6. Now which obscure menu to I pull down to see the headers? Now which obscure wizard do I navigate to create a filter? Now which obscure form must I trudge through to see the headers? (Translated to english: triple your Notes support costs.)
7. Those idiotic hieroglyphs when you're typing in your password.
8. It's a memory pig. God forbid I open Notes *and* Microsloth Turd at the same time!
9. Stupid proprietary mail protocol.
10. The Notes server has now been up for a total of *two days!* Let's all celebrate!
Our orginazation has gone through great pains having had to use Bogus Bloats. Almost everyone in IS loathes and detests it. I truly believe that if not for the pointy hairs in the world Notes would simply cease to exist. I admit that I have never used its highly-praised "discussion" features, but as bad as it is everywhere else, I'd sooner eat my own hand than be forced to spend even *more* time in that stinking, maggot-infested piece of shit that some losers at IBM dare to call "software."
Updating
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
If all you need is an E-Mail reader, which is the only thing 90% of the people in the company will use it for, then it is a more bloated solution for Netscape and it locks you into a very narrow set of OSes that you can read your E-Mail on (Assuming your employer has its head up its ass and doesn't allow Pop3 access.)
If your company is planning on going this route, do your best to encourage them to use open standards (SNMP, LDAP, etc) instead or I guarantee you you'll be hating life within a year. And your company will be too when they inevitably migrate off of Notes and onto a solution that lets them work the way they want to work, not the way Lotus thinks they should work.
And your list at the bottom could be continued and continued and it would still not cover everything Notes/Domino has under the hood. You make the common mistake of thinking of it as just email, or else have never had any decent applications designed in Notes. Notes combines multi/single capabilities - apparently a dichotomy from which you can't escape since you try to cram Notes into and demonstrate you don't get it. A markup language - try importing and using C/C++/Java natively! in your markup language. Again, you haven't had any decent programmers and have obviously not bothered to try anything fancy yourself. If you only skimmed the surface, that was your choice and your appraisal is just as shallow.
I'm sure that most of the people who actually have to USE this piece of shit on a day to day basis will agree with you. Except, of course, for the developers, but that's because they make $100K a year to do simple java-like applets, so they couldn't be happier with Notes. Upper management tends to like it because they can create "Data-Bases." Ooo. If course you could replace most of upper management with brain dead chimpanzees and no one would notice.
Notes is only as good as the people implementing it, developing apps for it, and using it, much like Linux. I've written applications ranging from a db for a web-based role-playing game to a helpdesk system that does nearly everything a commercial C++ app does with only a couple months development and no additional cost. While you can take Notes apart piece by piece and say this or that will do the same, you end up with a mighty big list in the end, while all I have to say is Notes.
But none of your separate components can interact. I can have a Notes db (if you allow me) pull out information from your email, shunt you over to a web site, and then back into a different Notes db. Even if you got an application for every feature of Notes, you'd still not be able to get every single application to be able to talk to every other one. And remember, if the functionality of @Commands or LotusScript doesn't do the trick, then I can write what I need in C/C++/Java and use it directly in my Notes apps. It is an amazing IDE that is under-utilized and seriously misunderstood by people who've never looked closely at it or never had a decent app designer show them what it can do.
Isn't R5 supposed to have a Java client?
Maybe they should get one...
I'll give you that. And Revision 5 slapped EVEN MORE pretty pictures on top of it...just when I had it ifgured out. Luckily you can bypass all the window dressing. But as for reliability? Nah. Your support sucks. I use the thing all the time..servers always up, replication is quick (or are your buddies still mailing you those 2 meg 'frog in a blender' shockwaves?) if you have a decent network. I have it on my office PC, my work laptop and my home PC. I can write email on the plane, plug the thing into a phone for a few minutes and it's all synched. Our group has a mail-linked DB for everything...Travel Expense Reports, Administrative forms, etc. If only it had a "Reply To All" button....
Blar.
Maybe you should do your research. Databases which are extremely useful can be whipped up without and coding what so ever, and functionality can easily be added with lotusscript or the @commands. You can also use C/C++/Java to extend the functionality. Each language has its place. Why would you want to write a multi-user OS in a notes database? That would be like buidling an OS into MS Word (maybe a bad example, but emacs is almost as guilty;)
It is fucking freezing outside...
One thing y'all might have missed; from the Domino R5 release notes: Lotus says it'll work just fine on your choice of RedHat, Suse, Caldera, etc. Basically any distro with a kernel >= 2.2.5 and the latest glibc binaries will run it fine. Some distributions will require a minor tweak or two (create a symlink, upgrade glibc) and that's it.
ok...let's go back a bit: to the Anonymous Asshole who made the remark about me "not being able to find spell checker", I said that the WEB INTERFACE (that would be that little "E" or "N" icon on your desktop, sparky) does NOT have a spell checker option....LOTUS themselves varified this and are adding it to their next update cause enough people bitched about it. Next, my end users couldn't give a ratsass about LotusScript..javascript or any other kind of script. They want their email to work and work NOW! Not 5 to 10 mins later. Not ALL our people have P2-500s for desktops and like I said earlier, R5 is a SLOWASS WHORE on a P100. Maybe the Linux version of R5 (if they ever make it) will scream on a P100 but, my company does not condone Linux and until it does, we have to deal with it on winblowz. Plus, if I want a database that kicksass, I'll stick to MySQL...which, I actually do anyways :) So, while this thread has proved quite "insightful" to Domino/R5, I think I'll keep running it off of MetaFrame and let the server use up it's resources until LOTUS releases a Linux client. As for our endusers, they are SOL thanks to another management impluse buying binge.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
I work for a growing company. Notes *might* have been a good fit. And Lotus *might* have gotten a lot of business from us. *But*... between flakey Unix support, dropping Unix client support entirely, an utterly brain-dead user interface (and *gawd* doesn't that email client *suck*), hideously expensive consultants, clueless tech. support, and nearly worthless docs, they've pretty much cooked their own goose with us. Management would consider it, but end-user and SysAdmin support for it has all but vanished.
If it's binary-only (I guess it is), it may be distro-neutral, but not architecture-neutral. When will companies learn to s@Linux@Linux/ia32@ in their commercial software announces?
While it may not exactly be Notes (yet). Check it out. We use and like Notes but have infact moved some sites and work onto Zope It has most of what you've just mentioned including relational database connectivity an indigenous object database and a drop in product called Confera for discussions. It's a true application server that is managed through the web. It's mostly written in Python so it's easily extensible. Zope is moving fast and getting features and products added almost daily because the company that created it Digicool open sourced it. It may not do exactly what you want but I'm sure it will still be something that you would want to look at.
Call me crazy, but I would like to be able to have a *SUPPORTED* method of doing backup of my Lotus Notes server to a centralized backup server. Has IBM even bothered to take feedback on the unsupported ADSM client for Linux? It still feels like unless you want to be left in a limbo of being supported on some products but not others that IBM is still pushing for going complettely "true blue" (must be RS/6000 & AIX to get support for IBM software products A, B & C... otherwise, only A & B are supported).
On Intel boxes you have a choice of running Domino Server for OS/2 (gack!) Netware (RIP), Solaris/Intel, and NT. Windows NT is by far the predominant server OS used when hosting Domino on Intel. Now that we have Domino for Linux, it gives Domino sysadmins a cheap way to kick NT out the door and keep their Domino infrastructure running.
You obviously haven't heard or or don't understand LotusScript. You can build your own classes and comfortably program with functions. Tell me again what markup language has that - or were you just trying to be clever with your insults and uncaring of the truth?
that damn Domino Designer is the biggest piece of crap around. I simply hate programming in it. When I move between IDE's (java/c++ etc etc) during the day then come back into Designer I seriously feel like pewking.. serious.. use some other IDEs and then come back to Notes.
if you haven't even found the spell checker you obviously no nothing about notes. i challenge you to find even another e-mail only (forget calendaring, contact mgmt, info mgmt, etc) package with a stronger built-in html editor
We've setup a mailing list for discussing Domino on Linux.
:-)
To join the list, send an email (content isn't important) to join-dominolinux@lyris.nipltd.com
More information see http://www.nipltd.com/dominolinux.htm
This is excellent stuff.... as soon as this is stable I am hitting our machine room with a RedHat CD
Work blog: http://elnblog.com Personal blog: http://simoncoles.org
And should it not be distro-neutral? I mean, for pete's sake, we're talking about Linux.. a "common" kernel, I thought, existed here. Therefore, why would Domino/Notes not be distro-neutral? I'd hardly think it Linux software if it wasn't......
Insert mind here.
As a former IBM employee, I can agree with you that it's a nightmare. It's this THING that tries to be all things. Email, databases, etc. How in the hell are these things even remotely related? It's a mess at IBM, and it's tough as hell to use. If I want to keep data next to my email, I'll use an Exchange Server, thank you. At least those make sense.
So long as Perl and MySQL exist, there is no need to waste money on non-standard, poorly-documented, bloated, and most annoyingly *non-relational* database packages.
I accepted a Notes project at work without doing the research beforehand, which I now sorely, sorely, sorely regret. I've gone so far as to design things in a pseudo-relational manner, but it's a hopeless task.
The bottom line: caviat developor.
-Seth
The point was to show how retarded your claims regarding LotusScript are. Your response clearly illustrates that you have no goddam clue what you are talking about so I'll end it here.
I can have a Notes db (if you allow me) pull out information from your email, shunt you over to a web site, and then back into a different Notes db I can do all that with unix DB files and perl for free. Probably with better performance and portability too.
Why the HELL would I want an html editor in my email program? I've already got that in Netscape composer if I actually ever used one.
Just another example of the bloat mentality that windows has fostered - every application tries to do everything and keep it inside the app itself instead of using other apps and utilities as tools. Try unix sometime - you'll like the feeling of people REUSING tools instead of REINVENTING them.
Holy f%$king shit! You actually think combining markup with code is USEFUL?????
Where on earth did you get your CS degree????
Mixing code and data is the NUMBER ONE wrong way to do anything on a computer. Please continue using Notes and god forbid your resume ever comes across my desk.
That's OK, I only posted that pointless post so I could get first post.
It worked.
Now I can go back to work...
IANAL, but I play one on
It's only the server side. In a large enterprise there are orders of magnitude more client users than there are servers for Notes. I really wish Lotus would throw their hat all the way in the ring and really support Notes on Linux. But I won't complain too much because server only is better than nothing.
Now I can finally check my email from the linux box. The company I work for doesn't allow pop3 or smtp!
Summary: everything except integrated Web Browsing works.
- Sam Ruby
I think this is one of the most important news Ive heard about the software industry (commercial) in Linux. Is almost as important as the Oracle announcement.
Another nail in the coffin of the "Not ready for enterprise use" argument. What will the FUDMeisters say now?
--------- Webmaster, http://www.cpureview.com and
I submitted it also, but it wasn't a huge surprise to see that somebody else did. I would have posted it sooner (because I knew about it yesterday), but there's this little matter of a Lotus Business Partner confidentiality agreement that prevented my doing that until the public announcement was made.
Please, please, please .... I need benchmarks. Given that Notes does some things good and some not so, I've been trying to find some sort of benchmarks as to how Domino performs as both as web server and a database. Say you don't want to use it as groupware or email and just want the webserver/db capabilities. I can't find any specs or comparisons. Anyone, anyone????
I am currently tasked with creating a Lotus Notes call tracking system for our company. I didn't know much about Notes before I climbed onto this sinking ship, but now I would like to share some of the delightful experence with everyone.
#1 Our Lotus reps told us that the bundled product DECS would be ideal for accessing our Sybase data. They neglected to tell us that DECS on Solaris is only capable on retreiving ONE record at a time. Multiple records can only be retreived by using LOTUS ENTERPRISE INTEGRATOR at roughly $8000.00. You can use LSX though, if anyone is familiar with ODBC you'll _love_ LSX.
#2 One of our main exports is to a UNIX box. It wants the connection to be on socket 2010. Of course Lotus told us that LotusScript had the ability to create socket connections. -- So far I've found this is only possible through Lotus Enterprise Interigrator. I've heard there is a way through the Notes Java Interface but after the LIES so far I dont know...
#3 LotusScript, it's IDE and debugger are complete pieces of CRAP!! You can only display one function at a time, the IDE crashes several times per day, LotusScript does not have common things like enumerated data types, or boolean data types, and all error messages are such that unless you have found the error before, you will never guess what the error might be. Things like "Object failed on object:".
#4 The interface is very wierd. As sick as it sounds I have seen soooooo many more intuitive interfaces on UNIX command line programs than in Notes. Things like 'click on the blue diamond to see the properties'. Most of the interface is left over from Windows 3.1. In the programming environment you cant have real doalog boxes. You can only have other forms with the same field names which share the data.
#5 YOU CANT SAVE YOUR CODE UNTIL IT IS DEBUGGED. THIS REALLY SUX WHEN THE IDE CRASHES SEVERAL TIMES PER DAY. Even curly braces{} will cause the danged thing to crash.
#6 Asking for help gets you spammed to hell.
#7 They will license to you company for $50000.00 by next year.
#8 They are sleazy.
#9 It's a flat-file database.
#10 They are sleazy.
-Love scott__
-Scott scott@surrealistic.org
This guy was one of the good ones in the shop:
Quote: "what does the dash/greater-than symbol mean?"
(meaning '->', BTW) None of the 3 Notes programmers had a clue what he was talking and us Perl/C programmers had a good chuckle; he thought it was a comparison operator of some type. I find many (I'm not saying all) Lotus Developers to be lacking in skills outside of LotusScript and wouldn't weep over them being absent from my IS group.
AC
I know Notes does some things very well (security, replication, etc.) but I am trying to find some statistics as to performance of Domino as JUST a db and web server. I keep hearing that Domino is not a relational db but need more specific as to what kind of db it is. What sort of performance does Domino have as just a static web server/dynamic ... I've looked at notesbench and many other sites but can't find any real numbers. Please I don't need results like "slow as S#it" or whatever I need facts... Please ./ers someone steer me in right direction for honest evaluation.
I am working with a bank. The bank doesn't select Lotus Notes because of performance. The decision is made where Notes shines - security and groupware development. Microsoft have try to build similar groupware features to Exchange, but they fail. Then they try to put VB+MSOffice+MS Outlook+ MS Exchange, and call them "Groupware capable", and they failed again. Try to compare VB+MSOffice+MS Outlook+ MS Exchange+MS Back Office with Lotus Notes(Security+Rapid Application Development+Admin control) It is just like comparing "vaporware" with "proven software" People will tell you that they can implement Notes features using Java, C, C++, VB, outlook, etc. I will tell them, "go study Notes before you start wasting your time." Without a huge workforce such as the Open source initiative, or something like Iris team, you will never success. Anyone learns Notes strenght, they will know Netscape Suitespot is going nowhere. WEB is not the "final solution for everything". Delivery decides the future. Corporate have see what Notes VAR deliver groupware to them, but they have yet to the following deliver any "groupware" SuiteSpot - Collaboratio, or VB+MSOffice+MS Outlook+ MS Exchange+MS Back Office Let alone Suitespot. Have you ever heard Microsoft annouce any "Success groupware site"? Go ahead and investigate what "groupware site" they have. Fail on the groupware arena, Microsoft try to draw everybody attention comparing Exchange and Notes mail performance. No, you can't, becasue Notes is not "yet another e-mail platform". Want to play e-mail performance games ? Try comapre Qmail, Sendmail with Exchange.
You say that Lotus Notes can do things that no other software suite can do. I agree with you, but you must admit that there are things that every other major tool can do that Notes cannot - or cannot without a great deal of effort.
Two examples (experienced under 4.6):
filtering your incoming email;
attaching a signature file to your outgoing email.
Yes, Notes is really, really powerful stuff, but if I spend my time as a Notes developer telling the secretaries how to filter their email, then the software really isn't maximizing my productivity the way it's supposed to.
You will get the international version -- only 40 bit encryption instead of 128 in the US version. Shouldn't make much difference, this isn't even beta yet so you shouldn't be using it in situations which need strong encryption.
If you are talking about the DES stuff, here are some links that can help you, as a programmer, RTFM on that issue. I have been using samba with the DES encryption for close to two years (if memory serves) with no problems. http://us1.samba.org/samba/samba/docs/ntdom_faq/pa ge2.html http://us1.samba.org/samba/ftp/docs/htmldocs/smbpa sswd.5.html I am beginning to see samba as as essential as perl.
>perhaps this will let us fire the Lotus Notes >admin who "learns as he goes ..." on the Notes >Email Server Erk. Perhaps they should try training him first? I have been in too many situations where I has some fantatsically complex product show up on my desk with the migration schedule in a memo. And that was the first that I had heard of it. Notes requires training. Period. At this point, if someone did that to me, I would leave. Perhaps your admin is not at that point yet?
I happily call my self the "Notes Opposition" at my company. I work at a Notes company, but I'm an old-school web guy with Linux, Apache and Perl in my blood.
I'm rarely the one to defend Notes, but I do sometimes, in situations like this. I used to think that Notes was just e-mail, but I now know that it's a whole application development and serving environment. Is is absolutely not the best solution for a lot of situations, but sometimes it is:
Some of the most basic business and workflow applications that many custom apps turn out to be require an incredibly small amount of effort to develop in Notes.
When Lotus came out with Domino a few years ago, yes, it was a workaround. It was a way of not losing to the web. But it works pretty well, considering what it has to do (for those who don't know, it takes Notes data and translates it into HTML. One Notes database becomes like a CGI application. All the form tags point back to itself, you can add, edit and modify documents on the web). It's a great effort on the part of Lotus.
As a web developer, is Domino my favorite development tool? Hell no! Not by a long shot. But I recognize the value that it brings to businesses who truly use it (not the ones that just use it only for e-mail), and especially the ones who use it in the right situations and use other tools (like Linux, Perl and Apache) when they are appropriate.
RP
Sure, I'd like to see a Notes client for Linux, too. I've said many times that it's the only piece of software that's really keeping me from trying to ditch Windows altogether, because my company runs on Notes and I have to do what I have to do.
:)
However, let's take Linux for what it is right now... a server platform. Yeah, there are those of us geeks who can use it as a workstation, but it's real strength and growing market share is as a server -- httpd, ftpd, smbd, RDBMS, etc...
We all want to replace all the Windows client machines in our companies with Linux, but let's start by replacing the NT machines. Now that Domino is out, I could theoretically do that, because Linux can now serve as a PDC for a microsoft network (thanks to Samba) and as a Notes server.
This is an exciting time... give the publishers time after the release of a server application before you give them crap about the client
ReadParse
it seems that the page refers to "open source" as "outsource". go figure
I'd trust a beta release from Iris a hell of a lot more than a commercial release from Microsoft.
:)
Which would get hacked first - IIS on NT or Domino on Linux?
Consultancy: If you're not part of the solution, there's money to be made in prolonging the problem
I've heard about domino before and I've even seen the commercials but I'm just wondering what kind of program is domino.. what does it do?
--------
WWGD? (What Would Goku Do?)
So maybe the software does suck. But at least they had a cool advertising campaign.
"I am, I am, I am superman, and I can do anything."
Come on people, at least try to smile, after all they are Trying to help us
MIME/SMIME, POP, IMAP, HTTP/HTTPS, LDAP, NNTP, CORBA, COM/DCOM (soon), Java, Javascript... All those are in Domino R5. What's proprietary about that? One other thing... Who else besides a troll would start a thread with Not a "troll". Try getting your facts straight next time and maybe then we'll believe you're a troll.
R5 mail files are web enabled. Assuming the Domino mail server is running the HTTP task, you have access to your mail file with a web browser. There's also the option of IMAP or POP access to Domino mail server.
While none of those are necessarily as good as going through a Notes client, it means you can get there directly from the Solaris box.
9. Stupid proprietary mail protocol.
The Linux version of Notes with be R5. And R5 utlizes native MIME/SMIME for Internet mail. Nuthin' proprietary about that.
Not earth shattering news...but thought I'd speak up before someone goes off on a tangent about the lack of said option (it's there in 4.x and is more obvious in R5).
You don't need a spell checker; you need a grammar checker.
I'm a Notes developer, and for all its shortcommings, it's basically a good product. For those of you that don't know Notes, I'll give you a quick rundown. First, Notes is very popular. There are always Notes jobs advertised all over the place. Further, it's used in a lot of large organisations -- probably more so than in small orgranisations. So what is it? Notes is a combination email client, database and Webserver. As a combination of those three products, it's quite good, and the integration is fairly tight. However, each of those three products on their own are lacking in many ways. For example, Notes is not a relational database, and the email client sucks, and blah blah blah. But, on the other hand, Notes makes it super easy to create databases (and views) with excellent workflow capabilities. For example, it would be really easy to make a form that a user enters information onto over the web. That form would then get emailed to a lacky, and he/she would write a response. they would click a button, and it would then be emailed to their boss for approval. Once they approved it, it would be automatically mailed/faxed to the original poster. Blah blah blah ... I could do that in 15 minutes (an honest 15 minutes, not a 15 minute promise). But, Notes does have its drawbacks. It's like any rapid application development environment -- it tries to be rapid by hiding some details from you. Well, 10% of the time, you really want control over the finner details. You often can get to them, but you also often have to fight notes for to get what you want. Now, keep in mind that Notes is very popular. Server administrators will probably be quite happy about the Linux port. That's great, so long as they deliver a robust product. However, the client is where it's at. Keep in mind that for every one server, there are 30 - 200 clients. The lack of a Linux client means that Linux is not an alternative in any way, shape or form for those people (myself included). Between email and all of your work databases, the lack of client makes it all but impossible to deploy Linux in these situations. 'So?', you may think. 'They're not going to deploy Linux in those situations anyway, so what does it matter?'. Well, I think that Linux would be perfect for Notes shops. Why? Simply because Linux was designed to be a multi-user system. Move everything to the server and you decrease the hardware and administration costs on the desktop, which are huge. Further, the sys admins get control over the user's desktops. When someone walks in complaining that the Internet has been removed from their computer, you can put the Netscape icon back onto their desktop from your computer. Well, that's just sort of an information about Notes post. I'm not really for it or against it, but there you go. Cheers, Travis
What is Notes? Basically a proprietary version of everything you already use, with some retarded window dressing they call "value add".
I'm sure you'll status this down because heaven forbid I'm saying something bad about a linux cronie.