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Lotus Releases Domino R5 For Linux
Lotus Domino R5 was finally released by Lotus. It's a "sneak preview" version-so be prepared to deal with bugs methinks. But it's cool to see that they done what they said they'd do.
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just think: a unix box running a windows emulator running notes....or better you could run a unix box running a windows emulator running ms vm running notes java client!!
-- your knees hurt, don't they?
So long as Perl and MySQL exist, there is no need to waste money on non-standard, poorly-documented, bloated, and most annoyingly *non-relational* database packages.
Errrr, the last version of MySql that I played with *didn't* support foreign keys... I ended up dealing with the relations in my own code... Has something changed in the last 2 months to remedy that?
well, its true, but all that trouble for the sake of using Linux is worth it
Posted by Robert M:
By releasing the domino server for linux, what lotus is trying to doing is reduce the cost of setting up a notes based network in a small-to-medium sized office.
By using linux as the base platform for the server, the office still gets the functionality of the domino server but also the added bonus of a proxy server, DNS, firewall and all the other networking functions in linux what are provided for free. This for simply the cost of the domino server (what they would have needed to purchased anyway) and a copy of linux.
btw-
i have been told by my sources, that lotus does infact plan to release a version of the notes client in the near future.
Actually, Lotus is not a "linux cronie" as you put it. They are reaching for ANY platform and inroad they can get. Anyone who has worked with ccMail and Notes 4.6 knows that they are TERRIBLE pieces of bloatware....and R5 is no different. My company is implementing the entire Domino Notes package in order to get rid of that crap Organizer/ccMail combination and I can say first hand that Notes R5 ran like a used up whore on my P2-350. It does provide a java interface for those of us using Linux but guess what...there is no Spell Checker. IMHO, it blows.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
What is Notes? Basically a proprietary version of everything you already use, with some retarded window dressing they call "value add".
I'm one of the poor souls who's employer forces him to use Lotus Notes for certian things.
While I wouldn't say I'm so militant as to refuse to work for any company that uses notes, I do agree that Notes is largely a joke.
There is absolutely nothing that Notes can do that a decent mime compliant mail client combined with a simple "intranet" web server can't do equally well, and using open protocols to boot.
On the other side of this coin, I'm delighted in Lotus's decision to support Linux.
Whether I like notes or not, it has big credibility, and the fact that Domino now exists for Linux, increases Linux's credibility as well. This is a good thing.
Methinks this was probably a typo or a severe misunderstanding. If outsourcers have a community, I'd be pretty surprised.
-NooM
Oh wait, sorry, forgot, pine is much better then this.
Well, lessee, it takes pine less than one second to load. It takes notes, on my pII-333 w/128MB of ram, about 5. When pine loads, if I have less than 100 or so messages waiting, they're already available. When notes loads, I have to log in, because notes is designed to run on an operating system that is not multi-user, and does not enforce privacy at login time. If I, god forbid, had 100 messages waiting in notes, I could be pretty assured of at least a 2 or 3 minute wait for the _HEADERS_ of the messages to come up. Getting the actual messages is another wait. Whee.
Pine doesn't give a damn what protocol you use to fetch your mail. Notes 'databases' are the bane of my existance. They aren't databases, they're nicely formatted text files with stupid, clumsy interfaces. It's a _markup language_. Think HTML, but Sloooooooooooooooower.
Workflow? If you need someone else to tell you how to work, you're indicative of all that's wrong with today's (well, not like it's a new thing, but..) IS/IT workforce.
Explain to me again how wasting a _lot_ of my time makes notes better than pine?
I actually sit, in NT, with a telnet window open for mail, because waiting for it makes me apopleptic with anger.
obDomino: It's a web server that's capable of serving those notes 'databases.' As such, it has loads of value to all companies too lame to USE AN SQL-AWARE DATABASE like god intended them to. It also uses like 80 bajillion megs of RAM to run, and is pretty limited, from what people have told me, in its ability to hack together the sort of real world web sites that most companies actually use.
--
Blue, who supposes you'll start telling me how it's better than vim, next. Or mysql. Or apache.
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
The main problem I have with Notes is the people who use it. At our shop, we store a great deal in Notes - documentation, forms, internal memos, etc. (i.e. all the forms to fill out to request stuff are all in a Notes database). This in itself is nice. The problem is that each and every one of these things is an attached MS Word document. Yup, if you want to put a document on Notes here, the accepted procedure is to write it in Word, attach it, and then save it in a Notes database... (this, of course becomes a nightmare when you want to update it ( Open, Detach, Open in Word, Save, Delete attachment, Re attach new document), but no one seems to care, which mystifies me). The weird thing is that most of the doumentation in the databases could just as easily be written in Notes' internal word processor (most could be written in Emacs with no loss of meaning whatsoever).
Notes may be a pig (yes), may be annoying (yes), may be useless (not), but it's problems can pale in comparison the the problems the users can have.
I have little experience with domino, but have heard great things about the last version. I hope it can start making a larger name in the market.
IANAL, but I play one on
Sounds like you should have used a local Lotus BP; they would have gotten a test setup for you and given you some hand holding. They're not that expensive (well..I'm not but I know Lotus Consulting is :-) If you mean the R4 mail client, I'd agree. The R5 client is a lot nicer (though it is still missing quoted text which a consultant can add in 5min). Gotta see if it runs under WINE ;-)
When do we get the rest of the Lotus packages?
It would shure add to | complete the desk top.
Who owns your data?
Applications: -Server uptime -# of documents/database.
Web server: -Flat HTML pages -Domino web applications -Hits/minute -SSL.
Domino does so much just asking for a benchmarks doesn't make sense if you aren't specific in what you are trying to benchmark.
In my experience, it is better to look that the business problem first, then look at possible technical solution and then benchmark those. At least you have some hope getting a reasonable comparison.
PhunkyP
In all things moderation.
A port of Domino can only be good news ... and I can't wait to see benchmarks. Do any of your notes users have the ability to do a little ballpark benchmark?
Geeky modern art T-shirts
Old story which seems apropos, here: A fierce and warlike stone-age jungle island tribe, discovered and introduced into the 20th Century only a few years ago by anthropologists, has recently revealed a previously undiscovered mountain of nearly solid gold which they've been keeping secret since time immemorial. Through unscrupulous international arms brokers, this savage tribe has already traded large portions of their mountain for secondhand nuclear submarines, guided multi-megaton missiles, and dozens of tankers filled with canisters of biological gas weapons. And they have just declared war on the major powers of planet Earth. Even as I type these words, every able-bodied warrior old enough to wear a loin cloth is working night and day, hammering these formidable weapons into hundreds of razor-sharp steel spearheads. S:B^o
Hey, a lot of times a story gets submitted like 10-30 times, so it's not that uncommon.
I suppose it's nice that there's a Notes server for Linux but it's not much comfort, since I'd have to replace the Linux and Solaris desktop machines with LoseDoze machines to use it.
Notes is a touchy subject right now since the employer is switching over to it and that means no more mail on the Solaris workstation. Somehow having all the engineers share an NT box for e-mail is seen as a productivity advance.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Anyone have an account to use for the download? If reverse DNS does not work for your IP you cannot complete the registration needed for the download.
Share bicycle touring info worldwide: http://wheretocycle.com
IMNSHO Notes is the absolute worst piece of software I've ever used. Let me list all of the things which I think make it a terrible waste of energy:
... Updating ... Updating ... Notes makes Windows95 look like a masterpiece, and I hate Windows95 bitterly.
1. Its interface in bizarre and unintuitive.
2. Its search tool totally blows. You can type "John Hobs" and it will be completly unable to find "John Hobbs." But it just might find "Theresa Hulshult." ???
3. Slower than a (insert a witty comparison here).
4. Until 4.6 it was amazingly unstable. It would crash 5 times more often than windoze 95! Strange to think that IBM has more money than God but it takes them until *release 4.6* to make their product stable.
5. The message box that simply states "Cannot execute the desired action." (Translated to english: double your Notes support costs.)
6. Now which obscure menu to I pull down to see the headers? Now which obscure wizard do I navigate to create a filter? Now which obscure form must I trudge through to see the headers? (Translated to english: triple your Notes support costs.)
7. Those idiotic hieroglyphs when you're typing in your password.
8. It's a memory pig. God forbid I open Notes *and* Microsloth Turd at the same time!
9. Stupid proprietary mail protocol.
10. The Notes server has now been up for a total of *two days!* Let's all celebrate!
Our orginazation has gone through great pains having had to use Bogus Bloats. Almost everyone in IS loathes and detests it. I truly believe that if not for the pointy hairs in the world Notes would simply cease to exist. I admit that I have never used its highly-praised "discussion" features, but as bad as it is everywhere else, I'd sooner eat my own hand than be forced to spend even *more* time in that stinking, maggot-infested piece of shit that some losers at IBM dare to call "software."
Updating
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I'll give you that. And Revision 5 slapped EVEN MORE pretty pictures on top of it...just when I had it ifgured out. Luckily you can bypass all the window dressing. But as for reliability? Nah. Your support sucks. I use the thing all the time..servers always up, replication is quick (or are your buddies still mailing you those 2 meg 'frog in a blender' shockwaves?) if you have a decent network. I have it on my office PC, my work laptop and my home PC. I can write email on the plane, plug the thing into a phone for a few minutes and it's all synched. Our group has a mail-linked DB for everything...Travel Expense Reports, Administrative forms, etc. If only it had a "Reply To All" button....
Blar.
Ahem...
well spotted - should have been clients sites.
I'm guessing that they're planning to run the *client* on NT using Citrix or something to display it to the UNIX users via X or a Java ICA client. Notes UNIX clients have always sucked, so NT is the only real solution if you've got to have the full client.
It is fucking freezing outside...
ok...let's go back a bit: to the Anonymous Asshole who made the remark about me "not being able to find spell checker", I said that the WEB INTERFACE (that would be that little "E" or "N" icon on your desktop, sparky) does NOT have a spell checker option....LOTUS themselves varified this and are adding it to their next update cause enough people bitched about it. Next, my end users couldn't give a ratsass about LotusScript..javascript or any other kind of script. They want their email to work and work NOW! Not 5 to 10 mins later. Not ALL our people have P2-500s for desktops and like I said earlier, R5 is a SLOWASS WHORE on a P100. Maybe the Linux version of R5 (if they ever make it) will scream on a P100 but, my company does not condone Linux and until it does, we have to deal with it on winblowz. Plus, if I want a database that kicksass, I'll stick to MySQL...which, I actually do anyways :) So, while this thread has proved quite "insightful" to Domino/R5, I think I'll keep running it off of MetaFrame and let the server use up it's resources until LOTUS releases a Linux client. As for our endusers, they are SOL thanks to another management impluse buying binge.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
If it's binary-only (I guess it is), it may be distro-neutral, but not architecture-neutral. When will companies learn to s@Linux@Linux/ia32@ in their commercial software announces?
The Mac client is in final beta and should be released soon.
I can start trying to get Linux into some of my clients...
At least take it out of the shrinkwrap first. It tends to chafe a bit.
We've setup a mailing list for discussing Domino on Linux.
:-)
To join the list, send an email (content isn't important) to join-dominolinux@lyris.nipltd.com
More information see http://www.nipltd.com/dominolinux.htm
This is excellent stuff.... as soon as this is stable I am hitting our machine room with a RedHat CD
Work blog: http://elnblog.com Personal blog: http://simoncoles.org
And should it not be distro-neutral? I mean, for pete's sake, we're talking about Linux.. a "common" kernel, I thought, existed here. Therefore, why would Domino/Notes not be distro-neutral? I'd hardly think it Linux software if it wasn't......
Insert mind here.
That's OK, I only posted that pointless post so I could get first post.
It worked.
Now I can go back to work...
IANAL, but I play one on
This is excellent news.
Now there's a real groupware solution for Linux, with proper server scaling (unlike that exchange thingee), and some real cross-platform grunt.
I can start trying to get Linux into some of my clients...
It's only the server side. In a large enterprise there are orders of magnitude more client users than there are servers for Notes. I really wish Lotus would throw their hat all the way in the ring and really support Notes on Linux. But I won't complain too much because server only is better than nothing.
Now I can finally check my email from the linux box. The company I work for doesn't allow pop3 or smtp!
Summary: everything except integrated Web Browsing works.
- Sam Ruby
I think this is one of the most important news Ive heard about the software industry (commercial) in Linux. Is almost as important as the Oracle announcement.
Another nail in the coffin of the "Not ready for enterprise use" argument. What will the FUDMeisters say now?
--------- Webmaster, http://www.cpureview.com and
I submitted it also, but it wasn't a huge surprise to see that somebody else did. I would have posted it sooner (because I knew about it yesterday), but there's this little matter of a Lotus Business Partner confidentiality agreement that prevented my doing that until the public announcement was made.
I am currently tasked with creating a Lotus Notes call tracking system for our company. I didn't know much about Notes before I climbed onto this sinking ship, but now I would like to share some of the delightful experence with everyone.
#1 Our Lotus reps told us that the bundled product DECS would be ideal for accessing our Sybase data. They neglected to tell us that DECS on Solaris is only capable on retreiving ONE record at a time. Multiple records can only be retreived by using LOTUS ENTERPRISE INTEGRATOR at roughly $8000.00. You can use LSX though, if anyone is familiar with ODBC you'll _love_ LSX.
#2 One of our main exports is to a UNIX box. It wants the connection to be on socket 2010. Of course Lotus told us that LotusScript had the ability to create socket connections. -- So far I've found this is only possible through Lotus Enterprise Interigrator. I've heard there is a way through the Notes Java Interface but after the LIES so far I dont know...
#3 LotusScript, it's IDE and debugger are complete pieces of CRAP!! You can only display one function at a time, the IDE crashes several times per day, LotusScript does not have common things like enumerated data types, or boolean data types, and all error messages are such that unless you have found the error before, you will never guess what the error might be. Things like "Object failed on object:".
#4 The interface is very wierd. As sick as it sounds I have seen soooooo many more intuitive interfaces on UNIX command line programs than in Notes. Things like 'click on the blue diamond to see the properties'. Most of the interface is left over from Windows 3.1. In the programming environment you cant have real doalog boxes. You can only have other forms with the same field names which share the data.
#5 YOU CANT SAVE YOUR CODE UNTIL IT IS DEBUGGED. THIS REALLY SUX WHEN THE IDE CRASHES SEVERAL TIMES PER DAY. Even curly braces{} will cause the danged thing to crash.
#6 Asking for help gets you spammed to hell.
#7 They will license to you company for $50000.00 by next year.
#8 They are sleazy.
#9 It's a flat-file database.
#10 They are sleazy.
-Love scott__
-Scott scott@surrealistic.org
This guy was one of the good ones in the shop:
Quote: "what does the dash/greater-than symbol mean?"
(meaning '->', BTW) None of the 3 Notes programmers had a clue what he was talking and us Perl/C programmers had a good chuckle; he thought it was a comparison operator of some type. I find many (I'm not saying all) Lotus Developers to be lacking in skills outside of LotusScript and wouldn't weep over them being absent from my IS group.
AC
Why on earth are you trying to develop something in Domino in a pseudo-relational manner ?? If you need a relational DB, use one. Domino is NOT and has NEVER purported to be a relational DB system. Develop the backend on a RDBMS, and if necessary use the numerous Domino methods to use/display/whatever that backend data.
As a good developer, you should use the right tool for the right job. It's like trying to use GIMP to do architectural drawings, or using PERL to write and operating system.
Not every technical problem in this world needs a relational DB.
The OS/2 Domino server runs _way_ better than the Win32 version. The only time I had to restart my OS/2 Domino server was to add more disk space.
You say that Lotus Notes can do things that no other software suite can do. I agree with you, but you must admit that there are things that every other major tool can do that Notes cannot - or cannot without a great deal of effort.
Two examples (experienced under 4.6):
filtering your incoming email;
attaching a signature file to your outgoing email.
Yes, Notes is really, really powerful stuff, but if I spend my time as a Notes developer telling the secretaries how to filter their email, then the software really isn't maximizing my productivity the way it's supposed to.
I happily call my self the "Notes Opposition" at my company. I work at a Notes company, but I'm an old-school web guy with Linux, Apache and Perl in my blood.
I'm rarely the one to defend Notes, but I do sometimes, in situations like this. I used to think that Notes was just e-mail, but I now know that it's a whole application development and serving environment. Is is absolutely not the best solution for a lot of situations, but sometimes it is:
Some of the most basic business and workflow applications that many custom apps turn out to be require an incredibly small amount of effort to develop in Notes.
When Lotus came out with Domino a few years ago, yes, it was a workaround. It was a way of not losing to the web. But it works pretty well, considering what it has to do (for those who don't know, it takes Notes data and translates it into HTML. One Notes database becomes like a CGI application. All the form tags point back to itself, you can add, edit and modify documents on the web). It's a great effort on the part of Lotus.
As a web developer, is Domino my favorite development tool? Hell no! Not by a long shot. But I recognize the value that it brings to businesses who truly use it (not the ones that just use it only for e-mail), and especially the ones who use it in the right situations and use other tools (like Linux, Perl and Apache) when they are appropriate.
RP
Sure, I'd like to see a Notes client for Linux, too. I've said many times that it's the only piece of software that's really keeping me from trying to ditch Windows altogether, because my company runs on Notes and I have to do what I have to do.
:)
However, let's take Linux for what it is right now... a server platform. Yeah, there are those of us geeks who can use it as a workstation, but it's real strength and growing market share is as a server -- httpd, ftpd, smbd, RDBMS, etc...
We all want to replace all the Windows client machines in our companies with Linux, but let's start by replacing the NT machines. Now that Domino is out, I could theoretically do that, because Linux can now serve as a PDC for a microsoft network (thanks to Samba) and as a Notes server.
This is an exciting time... give the publishers time after the release of a server application before you give them crap about the client
ReadParse
I'd trust a beta release from Iris a hell of a lot more than a commercial release from Microsoft.
:)
Which would get hacked first - IIS on NT or Domino on Linux?
Consultancy: If you're not part of the solution, there's money to be made in prolonging the problem
I've heard about domino before and I've even seen the commercials but I'm just wondering what kind of program is domino.. what does it do?
--------
WWGD? (What Would Goku Do?)
I think it's because Rob and Hemos hate you. Go away before they do something more drastic besides ignoring you.
So maybe the software does suck. But at least they had a cool advertising campaign.
"I am, I am, I am superman, and I can do anything."
Come on people, at least try to smile, after all they are Trying to help us
This is a perfect example of ignornace being bliss. Wake the hell up buddy. Lotus has taken notes from the closed proprietary package you speak of and incorporated LDAP, IMAP, yes even POP. If you used notes and only used it for email, then I would place blame on the administrators/application developers that worked (in this case I would say they were not working at all, just collecting a check) for your company. Notes allows communication, intergration, and process tracking that no other platform can.
Executive ability is deciding quickly and getting someone else to do the work. --John G. Pollard
I'm a Notes developer, and for all its shortcommings, it's basically a good product. For those of you that don't know Notes, I'll give you a quick rundown. First, Notes is very popular. There are always Notes jobs advertised all over the place. Further, it's used in a lot of large organisations -- probably more so than in small orgranisations. So what is it? Notes is a combination email client, database and Webserver. As a combination of those three products, it's quite good, and the integration is fairly tight. However, each of those three products on their own are lacking in many ways. For example, Notes is not a relational database, and the email client sucks, and blah blah blah. But, on the other hand, Notes makes it super easy to create databases (and views) with excellent workflow capabilities. For example, it would be really easy to make a form that a user enters information onto over the web. That form would then get emailed to a lacky, and he/she would write a response. they would click a button, and it would then be emailed to their boss for approval. Once they approved it, it would be automatically mailed/faxed to the original poster. Blah blah blah ... I could do that in 15 minutes (an honest 15 minutes, not a 15 minute promise). But, Notes does have its drawbacks. It's like any rapid application development environment -- it tries to be rapid by hiding some details from you. Well, 10% of the time, you really want control over the finner details. You often can get to them, but you also often have to fight notes for to get what you want. Now, keep in mind that Notes is very popular. Server administrators will probably be quite happy about the Linux port. That's great, so long as they deliver a robust product. However, the client is where it's at. Keep in mind that for every one server, there are 30 - 200 clients. The lack of a Linux client means that Linux is not an alternative in any way, shape or form for those people (myself included). Between email and all of your work databases, the lack of client makes it all but impossible to deploy Linux in these situations. 'So?', you may think. 'They're not going to deploy Linux in those situations anyway, so what does it matter?'. Well, I think that Linux would be perfect for Notes shops. Why? Simply because Linux was designed to be a multi-user system. Move everything to the server and you decrease the hardware and administration costs on the desktop, which are huge. Further, the sys admins get control over the user's desktops. When someone walks in complaining that the Internet has been removed from their computer, you can put the Netscape icon back onto their desktop from your computer. Well, that's just sort of an information about Notes post. I'm not really for it or against it, but there you go. Cheers, Travis