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Anti-WTO Riot, State of Emergency in Seattle
bridgette writes "The Mayor has declared a state of civil emergency, there is a curfew at 7 p.m. and the police have been using pepper spray and allegedly tear gas, paintball guns and rubber bullets." Stories are at
KOMO-TV,
MSNBC, Seattle Times,
CNN, and probably almost anywhere else you look.
Of course, people should keep in mind that it was the State of California that *mandated* MTBE use in the first place...even after it was known to be harmful.
Interested in XFMail? New XFMail home page.
There are other, more appropriate forums and methods of expressing concerns than blocking up a city and starting riots.
..., these rioters knowingly put themselves in a position... I have no sympathy for these (cough) people.
But very few that can be as immediately effective as a protest. You obviously don't grasp the usefulness of being in somesone's face. I would assume after being on a mission you would understand how it is much more difficult to say "No" to a person's face than it is over the phone, or to a letter, or an e-mail.
Too bad, I hope someday you don't feel the need to make your opinion heard. And if you do, I hope, for your sake, the world at large is more open-minded than you appear to be.
Given recent accounts of police brutality (in NYC, for example), it would make some sense to not be in the area where a protest might happen--especially as a participant.
Yea, running and hiding is usually a great way to get things changed. Obviously the police (since they're wearing uniforms) are entitled to do whatever is necessary to maintain the status quo.
The most commonly accepted form is greasing a politician. Call it campaign finance. Call it graft...You can buy a politician. And it is perfectly peaceful
Well, tithe your money to Sen. Hatch and go for it. Interesting how your solution is exactly the type of behaviour the protesters are protesting against. You obviously don't get it, in more ways than one.
+&x
"Imagine a US president being responsive to his/her citizens rather than foreign/domestic business interests! For shame!"
How was that? Pretty good eh?
Adbusters is absolutely brilliant. I just love the idea of using the media to undermine the media. And even better, they're actually good at it: they are wonderful propagandists. Adbusters is actually the only paper magazine I have a subscription to.
First of all, sovereignty sucks. Really, I don't see what's so great about it. I mean; do you really feel like the US government acts in your interests? I don't see why a world government would be any worse. Think about how much the EU governments seem to care about citizen privacy when compared to the US government.
Look, France, Germany, and other European governments are giving up some sovereignty to be a part of the EU. I care about my rights, and as long as there preserved, why should I care whose running the show? (couldn't do a worse job then the idiots we've got now, could they?)
Also, while there were a lot of people, there were over 250,000 at Marten Luther King's March on Washington, and over 400,000 at the 'million man march' much more then 50,000. In any event, how can you possibly say that this single event, witch did turn violent is possibly larger then the entire civil rights movement, with its many, larger, and lessviolent protests?
ohhh, while watching CNN, I just saw an advertisement for you're little 'protest' "lets go to Seattle and put that on the WTO agenda"www.adbusters.org You can tell a real grassroots movement by there slick television advertisements.
As for people jumping down my throat, go ahead, I don't usually to ranting. I wouldn't mind hearing some of the real issues (witch you have not done).
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Most of the protestors are non-violent, intelligent, and well-intentioned. However, a few are not, and they're the ones doing the damage. Apparently the looting, etc., this afternoon was done almost entirely by a small group (30 or so) of anarchists who dressed all in black and didn't even show their faces. The real protestors tried to stop them, knowing the damage they'd do to the protest. The few hundred people who intentionally broke curfew are mostly just doing it to defy authority because it's authority. Again, this is only three or four hundred out of 20,000+.
As a sidenote to one of the reports on the radio, they mentioned that many of the delegates conversed with the protestors outside the convention center (as they couldn't get in). Both sides actually talked about issues and explained why they were there. That's the news that should have come out of today, not the violence and looting and burning and such. But human nature being what it is, a small group had to ruin it for everyone.
BTW, there's a rumor here that this anarchy group has stolen a petroleum truck and plans to wreak havoc with it tomorrow - anyone else hear this? Is it just someone's imagination, or real?
Just ramblings from another annoyed Washington State college student...
I recommend that you read up on what is going on. When there is more than say 10,000 people gathering to protest you should really look into the reasons behind it.
http://www.harmonizationalert.org/
Try here.
Or here
http://www.tradewatch.org/
Matt XVI said:
... with none of the responsiblities that come with those rights. This is the problem. The government has created an imbalance by creating an immortal 'individual' with all the rights that that entails, and none of the responsiblities. As someone who believes in the free market, I find this repugnant. The WTO is being used to further the rights of corporations, without adressing the concerns of us mere mortal individuals.
(NB ALL rights are individual rights)
This may be true, but corporations are considered individuals by the law
As far as your comment of lowering trade barriers goes, good for you. If you believe that buying the cheapest goods possible, made by someone making a daily wage less than you spend on coffee, Yippee. Me, I work as hard as I can to make enough money that I can buy (relatively expensive) goods made by people who make as much as I do. If the WTO helps even the playing feild for people making a living wage, YAY!.... That however does not seem to be the goal.
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
What deepened the great depression? Are you an economist or an economics genius? NO!
Are you? We have no way of knowing this, since you chose to go AC. I'm not; although I've taken a couple of courses on economics I don't claim to be a genius.
You have to realize that tariffs and trade barriers increase world suffering.
Agreed, to a point. But the lack thereof can be just as bad, and have exactly the same effects, only in different regions. Sad as the truth may be, you cannot completely eliminate world suffering. The best you can do is minimize it, try not to cause any more of it, and try help those who are suffering from it.
Japan would have NEVER attacked US in WWII if the US didn't bring about the Holly Smoot tariff which effectively cut Japan off.
That's "Hawley-Smoot." And it cut everyone off, so why didn't everyone attack? For that matter, how are you so certain that was the reason Japan attacked at all (remember, they're historically very protectionist also)? Again, these are honest questions.
So in fact what you are protesting for is the collective suffering of everyone and a greater disparity between land renters and land owners rather than just rich or poor.
Wrong again. The fact is, he's got a point. People tend to see the US, because of its affluence, as a nation of rich people. This is hardly the case. While we do have a lot of rich people, and those people are very rich indeed, they're still an extremely small minority of the population. I would say that no more than five thousand, maybe ten thousand Americans are in a position really benefit at all from WTO. That leaves over three hundred million others in a position to suffer, and suffer greatly, as their jobs go where labor is cheaper.
I should point out that when jobs go overseas, suffering for those tho get the jobs rarely ends. It's not like they get paid nearly as much as their US counterparts (for if they did, then what would the point of moving the jobs be?) Most don't even get a twentieth of what a US worker makes, and the working conditions are awful. That's what's known as a "sweatshop" and it's what happens to most jobs when they go overseas. That's not stopping suffering, merely transmuting it to a different form (now, instead of suffering from having no money, they suffer under abominable labor conditions for obscene hours and still don't have much more money than they did before). So now, you don't just have an American who's suffering from unemployment, you also have someone overseas who got the job but is still suffering (which the American would not have been had he or she kept the job). People forget that businesses are ruthless whenever they can get away for it, and why not? Businesses exist for one reason alone: to make money. They'll do this by any means they can get away with; that's the nature of comeptition. Laws can be enacted to make sure business act honorably, but those are useless if they can't reach somewhere that the business can.
This is the problem with the WTO. Its theory is great. The problem is, it's not executed very well. It does nothing to level the playing field across nations (which was its original purpose; it just doesn't do anything which will do that).
A trade organization which ensured fair wages and working conditions in its member nations would be one thing. But WTO doesn't do that. All it does is drop barriers to trade, without a thought as to what lies on both sides of those barriers.
Maybe it's because I was from China, and I know many people there liked to be "exploited", just like poor areas here in Urban district in america trying to attract "investments". I normally agree with progressive causes, but not on WTO issue.
Just like in civil right movement, it's admirable that some whites were fighting along with blacks, but ultimately it was fight of black people and nothing could have been achieved without black's leadership and paticipation. If it's a 3rd world's problem, let them fight their fight.
I am aware a lot of US manufacture jobs are lost to 3rd world countries. But protectionism is not the solution. WTO is not the forum. Trying to tie labor and environment into WTO IS making WTO into a world goverment. If you afraid of losing your jobs and want Buccanna be president, say it out loud.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
These riots seemed pretty certain to happen, with as much anger and bad blood over the WTO.
Here are some things that are immediately apparent to me about these riots:
masks
People are afraid at these protests, many are trying to hide their identities with scarves, bandanas, masks and hoods. This can be attributed to three factors, the most important, IMHO, being that people are worried about reprisals and retribution even for attending the peaceful protests. The other two factors seem to be CS gas protection (not effective unless face covering is wet and covers eyes) and the natural inclination to disguise while vandalizing, for the more violent protesters.
disinformation
Major media outlets (CNNonline, local TV in Boston, Reuters) and the Seattle PD are not acknowledging using rubber bullets or CS (tear) gas, despite photos, video and eyewitness accounts of the use of both. Medics have reported treating CS burns, yet CNN claims that only pepper spray is being used.
evolving state of govt and economy
People from all over the political spectrum, left, right libertarian and "buchananites", are out there with a beef against the WTO. People are flying in from all over the world with an agenda against the WTO. Ergo, no one likes the WTO, except for those who stand to directly benefit from it's existence. Those benefits do not seem to extend to ordinary citizens, be they Bangladeshi, American or Estonian. Instead, they seem to benefit an increasingly powerful group of professional politicians, worldwide, and the people and companies that keep them in power.
This "new cultural elite" (LM 125) draws influences from all over the political spectrum, but increasingly demands structure, stability and authority in a suddenly fluid world. It purports capitalism, while working towards something an egalitarian and open capitalism should find anathema. Markets are increasingly being propped up, lowered, tweaked and micromanaged, by unelected "officials" who continuously enact new rules and regulations that directly harm people's lives, with no accountability. The WTO is one of many, many examples of a political tool that does that. In among some of the news stories and weblogs discussing the WTO are some horror stories about things the WTO has done. The major problem is a total lack of accountability, so they do whatever they feel like. The resentment this has caused, worldwide, is prompting people to vent their spleens in Seattle, because they most definitely do want control of their own lives.
J05H
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
I am a bit suprised to see this on slashdot, but since it's here I have a few things to say :)
I posted this link earlier on the "cyber-sit in story" or whatever it was called. I'll warn you this time that it is a very left-wing site, but don't worry, it won't kill you. In fact, you might learn something. It's a good addition to mainstream coverage that doesn't talk about the WTO at a particularly intellectual level.
Z magazine WTO coverage
I didn't think so many people would end up protesting. This is good because it gives the issue LOTS of attention. As usual the media has overblown the violence, looks like a few bonfires and some broken windows. But it looks like its getting a lot uglier. It's been mostly peaceful from what I've seen other than blocking traffic and enterance to the event. Hopefully people from Seattle will keep us up to date.
The WTO applies to the computer and sofware industry the same as it does to every other industry. The WTO is, in my opinion, a government by and for corporations. They don't have any accountabilty to the public. They can overturn laws in any member country that are deemed unfair to competition. The most common example I have seen is that countries in Europe were cited by the WTO for not allowing the sale of American beef products because the cows were treated with hormones. CNN.com has a few other examples in their coverage.
I think the WTO is an extreme form of capitalism that REALLY puts money before people. It takes control away from local governments and the people.
Globalization definately has its benefits. I think most people reading this can see them as far as the hardware and software industry, especially our trade relationship with Asian countries. I see it as a step twords global unification (well, a really small step). But when labor rights and the environment aren't put first, no one wins, and the gap between the rich and poor gets wider. I think this is why so many protesters have descended on Seattle. Corporations have gone too far this time. The establishment better be careful or the next decade could end up being a rehash of the 60's with globalization as the central issue.
At any rate it's an important issue that everyone should try to learn about.
The WTO has many many good points and several very troubling points such as patent issues and the ever increasing power of corporations. Unfortunatly this protest distracts attention from the real issues and focuses them on the non-issues of unionized labour and 'workers rights.' The violence involved makes it even worse, no one will take seriously the intellectual property concerns after this.
For the record I call the labour concerns irrelevant because at heart of the matter all that is important is how much stuff the workers recieve. Lowering tarriffs can only increase the total amount of goods in a country (more goods enter the nation) and while some citizens may be demoted to lesser jobs a fluid job market will guarantee everyone is still employed and hence the country has more goods in total.
So the net effect of trade barriers is to favor organized labour at the expense of the rest of the country. While you might feel that working class people deserve more money this could easily be accomplished by increasing federal aid to those who don't make much money. Increasing this aid would accomplish the goal of makeing sure the working class are not impoverished while not reducing the total amount of goods in the country.
On the other hand the WTO's seemingly strong stance on intellectual property might restrict the adoption of new/more efficent technology thereby making the world as a whole a less wealthy place (yes I realize IP is necessery to encourage innovation the trick is striking the right balance). But this issue will now be ignored.
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
I, for one, am very disturbed by the fact that most of the clothes I'm wearing were most likely made by underpriviledged workers, not only in third-world countries, but also here in the US. When the people have a very limited choice, when all they've been given are what they don't want, it's not necessarily their fault if they use it. It is their fault if they don't do anything about it.
I'm just afraid that the overly sensational US media is going to focus on the 20 or 30 idiots who made serious trouble, while the other 40-50K people there behaved themselves. The tension in this country has been growing at a very visible rate in the last few years and I think this is just one of the first (mostly) good outwards signs of it.
Being a (young) 20-something myself, most of the people I know (an interesting mix, seeing as I have both leftist or libertarian friends yet go to a very conservative school) are frustrated and angry about the state of politics in this country. The average person no longer has a voice, and large corporations and government institutions are working hard to make sure we have even less of a voice. Restrictions on encryption, anyone? More wiretapping capabilities built into our hardware and software? The "right" of the NSA and FBI to circumvent due process and keep people under surveillence without a warrant?
The WTO (good article here in pdf) has a track record of leveragaing their power to tromp the soverign laws of independent countries in order to make more money (article here). Powerful representatives from the US and large corporations convince small, developing nations that they need the latest whiz-bang-all-in-one products to even survive in the new world. These representatives then provide tasty soundbites wherein they ask for free trade and villify the protestors for not allowing their poor, starving country to get the best TVs out there (yes, bad example, but you get the point). It's for reasons like this that when I have kids they will never ever have Gerber baby food.
And for everyone who's been saying "Hippie, go home", RTFA (articles) before you make yourself look stupid. Thousands of people from all different walks of life are protesting this, not just a few "burnt-out acid-dropping hippies who crawled out of the woodwork", as much as you'd like to believe that. Middle-aged people who know this is a Bad Thing (TM) are right next to youth who feel they want to make a difference and are motivated to do so. Prominent figures have lent their voices to causes such as this, and the difference is starting to be felt. Previous generations had The Who, The Clash and U2 to send out the call for arms and action against the oppresive elements of their times. Today, groups like Rage Against The Machine are sending out the call to action and education to the youth of today. Do you think it's an accident their album debuted at #1 and is currently the #2 selling album in the world?? I don't think anything short of physical action on this scale (meaning large peaceful yet committed protest groups) are going to bring about the change we need.
Educate yourself. Let yourself get angry. And then do something constructive and meaningful to channel that anger. My 100% support to the protesters in Seattle. Not to mention somewhat reluctant thanks to the police out there for not allowing a re-creation of the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago to occur.
-jdm
You've must have been watching KING 5 TV all day!
Pioneer Square (we live here) is almost untouched. And the Nat'l Guard don't arrive until tomorrow am anyway.
P square was affected mostly *last* night when 8,000/10,000 church-sponsored protestors staged an incredible "human chain" potest which encircled all the parking area of the football stadium, barricaded at either end against their attempt to reach the Paul Allen-sponsored Exhibition Hall, where Bill Gates and Boeing head Phil Condit were "entertaining" (read lobbying) the WTO delegates.
Aim: a protest to make the WTO cancel third world countries' debts. This was peaceful and passed off with NO problem (and almost NO media mentions at *all*). But it was incredibly powerful due to the faceoff of a set of motorcycle cops (approx 40) and riot cops who harangued the demonstrators at the demarcation line. Also because: it was pouring and freezing. They chanted, "We're here, we're wet, cancel the debt!"
BTW, check out how much Gates & Co are paying for their lobbying opportunities at www.corpwatch.org/calandar/
Police restraint? Not exactly considering the marginality of offenses actually committed amidst a 40,000-person union march and constant nonviolent actions by 5-8,000 additional protesters - which occupied most of the day (total arrests before mid-afternoon: 12, including five people arrested for banner-hanging)
None of this, however, involved Pioneer Square (although here, as everywhere else in town, the homeless have been discreetly removed from the area...unlike Belltown, tho, they haven't been replaced by pots of petunias!). The chase/gas/chase and firing of rubber bullets went on all day in the _city center_, near the WTO convention area... our poor excuse for a Mayor, Paul Schell, declared his "state of emergency" around 3pm in a dumb fit of over-reaction.
This was, sadly for him, at the same time as several local newscasters got hit by CS gas. They stopped playing nice guy and pointed out that the cops were firing rubber bullets, lobbing explosive tear gas greandes embedded with same and firing at anything which moved. They, for instance, caught some people on their way home from offices.
Most people here _outside_ the media knew something just like this would happen, for many reasons. One of the main ones, however, is that many people are sick of Gates and Allen being allowed to effectively run Seattle...whether by building sports facilities we don't need or being (esp by the media) treated as our de facto mayors and superiors.
...To get some new shoes and stuff. Maybe do a little X-mas "shopping". Anybody need anything?
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
These should be better in the AM. Reply with new streams and webcams, please.
.wsdot.wa.gov/PugetSoundTraffic/cameras/imagehtml/ cctv117a.htm .asp a pbonline/scannerlive_sea.asx 8 000&file=filename.plsrtsp://kgw.solidweb .com/encoder/kgw-g2.rm
Cameras
http://www.historylink.org/gazette/g azette.htm
http://www
http://209.20.207.37/index.html
http://www.spaceneedle.com/view/livecam
http://www.seattleinsider.com/news/ cameras.html
Audio
http://128.95.10.82:8000/
ht tp://tm.intervu.net/template/smirror/ivtemplates/
http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/ shoutcast-playlist.pls?rn=6416&addr=209.201.3.17:
What's going on in Seattle is fascinating. Beirut you say? Hmmm...
Beirut I can understand. Kosovo as well. This? No. Here? Never!
I grew up in Warsaw and came to the US at the ripe old age of 10 (in '83). By that age, I knew what tear gas smelled like. It's not something 10 year olds should know. But, I can honestly say, I knew if for good reason. I was there when the fuse was lit, on the bomb called Solidarity. That bomb blew up the Berlin Wall and the USSR.
Being from Poland, I imagine that I have a little more insight into the ageless ethnic tensions that made the former Yugoslavia into the blood-bath that it was. A little more insight than the average US citizen, since here people tend to hate each other for color, creed, idealism and other easily observable traits. There, people are more tolerant of such extreme differences, and hate over the history of a neighbor's bloodline. But I digress... (these are my opinions BTW, flame on!)
Seattle is on the other coast, and while I can see it on the screen, I keep expecting Orson Wells to come out of the shadows and laugh into the camera.
I can only ask myself 'why?'...
What do those rioting people rage against? Tyrants? Taxes? The killing of priests? Or is it just the imposition of a more global economy, that would bring the American standard of living (which I very much enjoy BTW) out of the stratosphere and onto the more level plane of globalisation?
Would these people still be there if they knew that the alternative to what the WTO stands for is (for example) a 200% increase in the cost of gasoline? Do they really want to HAVE TO grow their own vegetables, pluck their own chickens and ride a bike for transportation rather than cheeseburger-burning exercise?
And will I have to pay more at Starbucks in the morning?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Western contries will gain more advantage by puting 3rd world into product markets and raw material providers Oh, no! third-world citizens might get money and they might be able to buy stuff with it!!! That would be so terrible.
really this thing is ridicules. The WTO makes no policy on the environment, this would be akin to a mob of people trashing your home because you didn't donate to the salvation army or something.
The only people this hurts are US labor unions, who apparently thing that its much, much more important for US blue color workers to get a lot of money then it is for 3rd world-ers to get food...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The cnn link listed in the article is broken. The correct link is here.
-jacob
It really is too bad. Here we have a group of people who were trying to peacefully make a point about their objections to the WTO. Unfortunately, some other people couldn't keep it peaceful, and then the forces of law and order started resorting to violence even against those who weren't using it themselves. As a result, we're bound to see a lot of commentary on how people are animals, since we all riot at the slightest opportunity, or how the government is oppressive because they pull out pepper spray on peaceful protesters.
Unfortunately, this probably means that the message that the peaceful protesters wanted to get out, that the WTO has a poor track record with environmental and worker issues, is going to be pretty much lost in the noise.
I agree, I watched the protest on TV all day.
A group of people were going around all in black and breaking windows and throwing trash everywhere. But other people kept on cleaning up the trash that these vandals were throwing out and telling the vandals to stop. This group, called the anarchists, were thirty people in a group of 60,000 people. I was suprised that there were so few of these people in such a large group.
A group of protesters grabbed a street intersection and the entry to where the delegates were meeting and wouldn't let the delegates through, but they were simply blocking the delegates, the only physical violence that I saw was a delegate hitting several of the people that were blocking their way.
By ten oclock these protesters had been hit with at least ten canisters of gas, sprayed with pepper spray, shot with rubber bullets and attacked with flash-bang devices for at least an hour. The protesters held their ground and refused to surrender the intersection. During the course of these police attacks a few of the protestors became angry with the police and were physically defending themselves by tossing the canisters back at the police and building a baracade of tipped over dumpsters which some lunatic protestor set on fire. (That was a stupid move, gauranteed to make the headlines.)
Once the delegates were in the building the attacks stopped until the Union march finished around 3 pm. Then the police continued to attack the intersection.
By 5:30 most of the protestors had gone home, only a bunch of angry young people were left, less than 5,000. They vowed to hold the streets but were pushed out of the downtown area by 7pm so that the delegates could go enjoy a nice catered meal at the flight center.
The protestors were pushed further and further back into residential neighborhoods where the continued police gas and pyrotechnics attacks were affecting the older people and children in the neighborhoods. At 11pm several hundred policemen are chasing a lesser number of protestors through the streets of Seattle. It will be over soon.
The one thing that I found really interesting about the protest today was the lack of press coverage today on anything other than the local channels. By 3pm CNN was doing a 5 second blurb every hour and Fox didn't even to seem to know that there was a protest in Seattle against the WTO. By this time the Govenor of Washington had called out the National Guard. But Pete Rose was interviewed live all day long...
I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories, but the lack of National Press coverage, the biased reporting against the protestors when the news was finally reported at the end of the day, and the police response toward the protestors leads me to one and only one conclusion. The system is rigged and ran by those with money.
I know that most of you are saying, what am I some sort of idiot for not realizing this years ago? My only excuse is that I saw what I wanted to believe was true. For those that don't believe this, wake up. For those who know the system because they are the system, beware, my eyes are open now and I will be watching you very carefully.
I am going to my first protest tomorrow morning at daybreak. See you there.
And I didn't know that it was them who had been running the 'I miss my other lung, bob' billboards. Those are great :)
However, whether or not they are 'doing good' is a matter of debate. Would Seattle have been so ravaged if there ads hadn't run? I think that's a question that they really need to ask themselves. The info about the protest on there site was your typical information-free political propaganda and nothing more then rhetoric.
If you want to fight a cause, disseminate information about it. Let people make up your own minds. If people chose not to join you, then maybe you're in the wrong.
Advertising is about manipulating people, not informing them. I certainly wouldn't call what I saw on CNN an "Unadverizment" it was as much a political ad as anything else. (actually, it was a hell of a lot better then most political ads, but that's another story)
Just because an idea is progressive, it isn't necessarily good. And, once you stop disseminating real information, and start producing propaganda, then you are no better then anyone else. You're just another salesman, pushing your ideas, regardless of how correct they are.
Advertising, in the form used by corporate America, and by adbusters.org is not designed to inform us, but rather to control us. Corporate America's message is simply to buy their stuff. Adbusers has a political agenda, and is using the tools of advertising to push it.
There was another organization that used modern advertising to achieve its 'new' goals, It was called Nazism. And they were pretty successful.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
It is AMAZING what's going on outside right now. I work in the Pioneer Square section of Seattle, just on the south end of Downtown proper. I'm probably insane for still being here, but that's what they pay me the big bucks for, right? Oh yeah, I'm salary. :P
Anyway, I've been watching this whole thing unfold all day, and it has been absolutely insane. The National Guard has been called in, the Downtown area (starting 2 blocks north of me right now) is under curfew until morning, and the tear gas was so thick at times that you could barely see across the street!
When I came down here this morning, it wasn't too bad - there were several tens of thousands of people protesting, but it was mostly under control and peaceful. A little tear gas here and there, but not much. The condition deteriorated throughout the day until around 4:30-5:00 - it started to get dark, and it seems like all hell broke loose.
Watching the news (and the streets, for that matter), it was very surreal - the first thing I wanted to say was "this is happening WHERE?" It looked like CNN coverage of some foreign city under seige by terrorists - not kidding at all... Police in all their riot gear, herding people out of the "curfew zone", shooting tear gas and pepper spray, rubber bullets, and now the National Guard. My kid sister even got tear gassed on her way to work this afternoon!
All in all, I must say that the police have shown some pretty decent restraint through all of this. Lots of gas, etc, but not too much violence, and VERY few arrests - I think the count is at around 22 people. 22 people out of THOUSANDS really isn't bad. The VAST majority of the protesters were also very well-behaved and got their point across well. It wasn't until some of the "hey, let's go riot!" people started coming out of the woodwork before it got nasty.
Very odd day, all in all. There's helicopters flying overhead every couple of minutes, and APC's just up the street, and I'm not sure how I'm going to get home, which is on the other side of the locked down area, but very interesting nonetheless...
*grin* Never again will I say "it couldn't happen HERE... not in MY town..."
- strabo
...unless you happen to think that civil rights, ends to oppressive regimes, and ending intolerable working conditions are "constructive."
-jacob
The protests have been good because it is free speech and civil disobediance in a most American fashion. In 2/3 of the WTO countries, the public would have been severely restricted a priori, if not having "dissidents" rounded up and jailed weeks before the meeting. The degree of coordination of the protestors in taking downtown Seattle corner by corner and holding territory was impressively effective.
For the police response, it appears that they have taken back downtown Seattle in an organized and efficient way. The Governor's State of Emergency giving them a legal basis, the police have shown an amazing amount of restraint... there have been a few minor injuries, but no clubbing/takedowns/violence. I think that this is because the police would have been outmanned at the peak of the protests; when outmanned, they would have to use a greater proportion of force to disperse the protestors. Not to mention that after 12 hours of marching, the protesters would be easier to move.
I've been watching this live on Northwest Cable News for a couple of hours... Congratulations are in order to both sides for a good show.
Oh... and leave it to Seattle protestors to loot Starbucks... I can just see the stocking-capped hoods making off with pockets full of biscotti, pilfered mochas, backpacks full of stainless steele travel mugs.... in LA they have the sense to loot consumer electronics... guess in Seattle they have to feed their community addiction.
-Rodent
The real problem with the WTO is that it gives away too much sovereignty. Here in California we're banning MTBE from gasoline because its somewhat water soluble, and may be a carcinogen. I've heard that there are oil companies in other countries trying to get the ban overturned in court because it violates the WTO guidelines.
If such a case were decided in favor of the oil co.'s, it would basicly mean that the US government has given away California's right to self govern, and the people would have to keep drinking MTBE contaminated water no matter what they thought of the issue.
That's the sort of thing they're protesting against. More power to them! I wish I could go to Seattle and join them.
The events in seattle are not a result of the WTO conference (of which they have been heavily recruiting volunteers for in area high schools. I'm glad I didn't volunteer.), but the hype generated by the massive preparation the city has been undertaking for the past several months in order to get ready for the protests. It attracted all of those people that thought setting bon fires and beating up delegates (Which did happen, to those hapless enough to try to use the front entrance)would be great fun. Shortly after the protests began, the protestors quickly factionalized. Conflict began between the groups, as those who had coordinated their protests with the city attempted to stop those that were firebombing dumpsters and rolling boulders down hills at lines of police for fear of being tear gassed. Things began to degrade at around 10:00 AM Pacific, when the police donned their riot gear and began loading their hot-pink shotguns. Wacky and entertaining protestor vs. police hijinks ensued. I saw a man in a sea turtle costume (bearing the placard: Save the sea turtles. Go fig, at a trade conference?) beating the hell out of another man who was unlucky enough to rouse the beast's ire. Many of the protestors had unusual costumes on, probably to attract the attention of television cameras. The overall effect was that of a demented mardi gras, but with more tear gas. On a side note, I found out that CS gas smells like horribly rotten mustard and doesn't "hit" you until several seconds after exposure. The tear gas attacks were mostly ineffectual, as many protestors (Rioters at this point) had gas masks, and were lobbing the cannisters back into the police lines. After several hours of this, the crowd shifted into 'Arson mode' and began stripping Seattle's beautiful downtown pedestrian areas of anything flammable and setting massive blazes. As the curfew approached, only the hard-core bands of rioters remained behind to taunt the advancing riot squads. Oh, and somebody set off some sort of explosion during this phase of the .. party.. and that seemed to /really/ piss the police off. As for the conference itself, it was delayed by several hours and the attendees were generally annoyed. Personally, I would've sent in the fire department to quell the riot. I would have volunteered on the spot if one of the availible positions was to work the hoses. At any rate, this wasn't about the WTO. It was a gigantic , really destructive, block party. The pleasure we take in being part of the group, acting with violent purpose towards a goal with no eye towards its morality will ensure that we are supplied with a never-ending fountain of such spectacles well into the new millenium. The police felt it, and they did take part, with their lobbing of tear gas and engagement with the protestors. Even I felt it, far removed as I was from the chaos. I thrilled at the prospect of taking part-- a primal need to put myself in the center of it, setting fires and engaging in wholesale mindless destruction with my.. as the mob, the distinction of self vanishes. Something in ourselves makes us manic for the chaotic energy we find when we swarm. Philotes, herd instinct, whatever you please. It exists. This is what Y2K will be like, but everywhere.
If you read MSNBC's articles on the subject, they mentioned a protestor who was arrested by the police. The protestor, upon being interviewed, admitted to the fact that he did not have a particular agenda against the WTO. Ah, the committed ideals of the civilly disobdeient masses are amazing aren't they?
A friend of mine particpated in a Martin Luther King rally that ocurred in Denver a few years back. The KKK, being the fun loving happy go lucky kind of white supremacists they are, thought it would be a lovely idea to stage a rally of their own at the state capital. She was with a large group of people who were very into civil rights, and wanted to show their respect for MLK with a peaceful march through downtown. At the capital, they discovered that another group, completely unrelated to theirs had shown up with only one intention, beating the ever loving crap out of the KKK. Now, if there is any organization that deserves such a reception it is the KKK, but the end result was a riot that far overshadowed anything good that happened that day.
So, for those in the audience who just enjoy stirring things up and being violent, would you take up knitting or something rather than screwing up the political message of the few people in this country who are willing to go out of their way to make a political point.
*As sterno steps down from his soap box the crowd goes wild*
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Hypocrites.
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Morning gray ignites a twisted mass of foreign shapes and sounds
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
Everyone has their own opinion, yeah, but I'm surprised at some of the responses in the Slashdot community. Sure, when I saw the protestors preparing on the news here in London I sorta mumbled to myself, "Yeah... THEY'RE going to save the world, sure..." - but the really interesting thing is that it's not just bong addled hippies out there. It's retired firemen and nuns and Union workers. That is how important this issue is - because anyone who has lived in WA state, where I grew up, and hasn't gotten filty rich on MS stock options knows that free trade has been disastrous to our economy and environment. The Salmon runs are nearly dead, hundreds of thousands of jobs were lost in that industry. Loggers were hired by big corporations to strip clear trees from the state that were sold to Japan, then fired once they were all gone (and don't get me started on how they bought public land - PARK LANDS - to get even more timber). Then there's Microsoft. The brief history of this state is our future history praying at the altar of free trade. These were issues that affected blue collar working class people and their ability to support their families - not smelly assed crusties playing bongos worrying about the new batch of Humboldt bud.
The WTO means that hormone injected beef that has been proven to cause cancer cannot be restricted from being sold in a country whose people don't want it. This means that controls on GM food and labelling cannot occur despite a populace agreeing on such an issue. This means Monsanto can sell their self destructing seed no matter what the farmers think. It means a company who makes an enormous profit from one country doesn't have to put one cent back into taxes to that country or jobs or local interest. Basically - it's Microsoft vs. Linux, except it's not the OS you run, it's the food you eat, the air you breathe, the animals in the sea, your local populace's employment rates, the ability of a large corporation to strip mine all the resources in an economy and not put anything back into that economy - rather keep it for themselves - which is the real damage of free trade.
Maybe I'm emotional, because I'm here in London and it's only through webcams and message boards and TV coverage that I can get a sense of what's going on back home, and worry about friends and family, some of whom I know are protesting, while others are worried about getting to work on time, and one or two police officers. Undoubtedly there is a small minority causing trouble. But what I see is a diverse crowd of unarmed people with interests devoted to having a say in the shape of the world versus the latest kevlar protection and non lethal weaponry - against the sheltered protection of large corporations. It's Terry Gilliam's Brazil. For the first time in my life I have empathy with the older generation who protested in the 60s and understand why they were so reactionary. If you're going to consider this issue as non sequitir and having no importance to nerds, then please, like a true nerd educate yourself first and consider what's at stake.
** http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/ ** Human rights in North Korea. 1 million estimated dead from starvation.
Okay first things I was in downtown Seattle were all of the demonstrations occurred. The news media (even local) is focusing on some rather limited acts of vandalism the have happened over the course of the day. A group of "anarchists", which were in reality about 15 nineteen year old kids dressed in black broke some windows and spray painted all kinds of things. I think it is important to understand that the action of these 15 or so kids is what you are hearing about in the news, and doesn't represent the actions of many thousands of protesters you demonstrated peacefully. As far as the police, they were very patient for the most part and did use tear gas and rubber bullets. For whatever reason they are denying the use of the rubber bullets but they were used at a couple of occasions during the day. While I wasn't there to protest the WTO directly I can't say that I agree with the closed door nature of there meetings, or many of their decisions (gene patents anyone?). PS In reply to an earlier post the CSE department at UW is quite good, but it is small and VERY difficult to be accepted to.
I only post twice a year, who needs a sig?
OK
here's my two bits
free trade is good for developing countries
it is, however, probably a bad thing for many north american labour unions
if unlimited growth in the production of wealth is unrealistic (and I believe it probably is)
then the only way for the quality of life for the average third worlder to improve is for us to share the wealth
ultimately, we (western citizens) may be poorer, but the system will be more fair
to hell with national sovereignty, citizenship is only an accident
The chinese (most of them) don't want democracy
they want color tv sets
If the labour groups really want to help the average third world worker, they would be pro WTO, then help them unionize at home
thought must come before action
these knee jerk responses and rhetoric spouting assholes are driving me up the wall
Lowering trade barriers does quite the opposite. It increases my individual right (NB ALL rights are individual rights) to buy products without state interference and taxation. This benefits the buyer and seller.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
Feedback of this sort is an essential part of our socio-political system, because there is no other mechanism available by which the actions of political and economic institutions can be controlled in a democratic way.
So-called representative democracy is nothing of the sort, because there is no opportunity to influence individual issues through the election sledgehammer, and in any event only candidates that follow the approved line get the funding that's needed to get anywhere in politics these days. In any case, one day of democracy every five years is a joke.
In the absence of any official feedback mechanism, people have to protest to get their points across, and in this media-led world, a peaceful protest just doesn't get on the news. At the very least it's got to create a disturbance or nuisance of some variety to be reported.
Well, so be it. If the politicians in their comfy rose-tinted world don't provide any better way for the populace to express itself and to get things changed by due process, then people will take to the streets. It's that simple.
I bet that they never get the message though. That would require a clue. Nah, far easier just to send out the riot police to control it.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
The following is a first-hand account from a Stanford student of the lack of police brutality:
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:24:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Louise A."
Subject: Re: EMERGENCY RESPONSE DEMO TO POLICE VIOLENCE IN SEATTLE (fwd)
Greetings from Seattle,
I was at the demo today -- will send out a full report soon -- but for
now, i just want to say that reports of police brutality are not
exaggerated. Many are in fact grossly underestimated. I didn't get
anything worse than tear gas, but police have been
beating with riot sticks
peaceful protestors who sat or lay on the ground. They have taken
protestors who were wearing face masks, covered the inside of the mask
with pepper spray and forced it back onto the person's face. They dragged
an elderly woman across the ground by her hair and an arm. They've shot
rubber bullets at ranges of a few feet, and one officer pulled a real gun
on protestors before other officers restrained him. In addition,
police have _not_ been arresting protestors to any extent -- I heard 18
arrests the whole day -- they have simply been attacking us. Now the
mayor has declared a state of civil emergency, set a 7 pm curfew dowtown,
and called out the National Guard. So if you can make it to the Palo Alto
demo tomorrow, do. (info below if you missed it)
NO WTO!
In solidarity,
Louise A.
From what I have seen (I am in downtown Seattle right now), there has been VERY minimal police violence, almost no injuries to people, and the vast majority of the protest WAS nonviolent.
There were a lot of people that started coming out, particularly toward the end of the afternoon/evening, who saw this as an excuse to riot and destroy property. There were also a large number of peaceful protesters trying to talk them down.
For the most part, the police simply used tear gas (not pleasant, but nonviolent), pepper spray, and some rubber bullets. Mostly gas and pepper spray. And they used it fairly sparingly until it became evident that something had to be done to get things under control, and they imposed the curfew. Then they got more agressive with the tear gas to get people OUT of the downtown area.
There was a lot of property destruction done by a small (in comparison) group of people, and the police, for the most part, excersized a good deal of restraint in dealing with it.
Also, for the most part, the protesters (peaceful) that I have talked to feel that today was a GREAT success, that their message was heard, and that their objectives were accomplished. I don't think that will get lost in the noise at all.
All in all, I must applaud both the peaceful protesters of today -and- the police. They both did their jobs, did them well, and nobody really got hurt (that I'm aware of). It could have been A LOT worse.
- strabo
The only first hand account I see is that she says "I didn't get anything worse than tear gas".
She does not claim to have seen any of the other things she talks about. I'm sure the rumor mill is spinning at top frenzy out on the streets.