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Anti-WTO Riot, State of Emergency in Seattle
bridgette writes "The Mayor has declared a state of civil emergency, there is a curfew at 7 p.m. and the police have been using pepper spray and allegedly tear gas, paintball guns and rubber bullets." Stories are at
KOMO-TV,
MSNBC, Seattle Times,
CNN, and probably almost anywhere else you look.
Yes, there are still vagrants in Occidental, although many of those are drug dealers not homeless. I serve food there every week, though, and I have personally heard many reports of homeless getting increased harrassment from the police. Certainly in the downtown core, in the state of martial law, the homeless are now gone. Luckily, SHARE, a local homeless organization, has set up two tent cities; one on Capitol Hill and one near Greenlake. (Initially, the city appeared to understand that this would be necessary. However, 2 weeks ago, city bureaucrats suddenly withdrew from tent city negotiations, apparently on orders from the mayor. The tent cities have not been broken up, but they are not city-approved.)
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Of course, people should keep in mind that it was the State of California that *mandated* MTBE use in the first place...even after it was known to be harmful.
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I haven't heard of any evidence that infection rates in cattle are increased by BGH. Can you provide a reference (to a news story at least). I'm not implying you made it up, I'd just like to evaluate the evidence for myself. If this is true, it might be a sound case for banning the stuff.
As to whether I'd eat it, I don't know. I haven't looked into it in enough detail, but I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why I shouldn't have the choice.
The evidence for whether BGH is carcinogenic is definitely not sufficient to justify a ban, despite increasingly desperate efforts by the EU to find more evidence. Studies have gone both ways, and it seems that no simple errors were made in either case. Until there is sound evidence that the stuff is a public health risk, I say give consumers the choice.
There is a very real question as to the standards of proof that need to be applied in these cases. Is the slightest suspicion sufficient ? or the balance of probabilities ? or general acceptance by the scientific community ? or beyond a reasonable doubt ? I don't know the answer - and its just as much a question for internal regulation as for import control - but I do think some clearer thinking is needed.
Why is lamenting something unfortunate naive? Certainly, it is naive to say that violence won't occur on these occasions, but that doesn't stop you being remorseful when it does.
and you don't hope that we have moved on as a society since then?
This is cr*p. Would you mind if I came and demonstrated outside your house and broke some windows? Damage to peoples' property certainly is violence. If the things being broken are public items, or belong to businesses, then granted it is disruptive rather than hurting peoples' feelings. Think however, about the people around when all these protests turn nasty. I've been near similar things in the past (although not quite on this scale). It's threatening - you want to get away from whereever the place is ASAP. The scene of disruption in London yesterday (see this BBC article) was near a major station. It's not nice if you're trying to get home and there's a violent mob there. That is in fact on the route I would normally take home from my holiday job. I'm glad that I don't start again until next week and so missed the disruption.
It is rather easy to tell when a protest is turning into a mob. Whilst I applaud those standing up for their right to demonstrate (even when I don't agree with their arguments), it is rather stupid to hang around once things have turned nasty. If you continue to do so, then you have yourself to blame when tear gas is fired into the crowd. Having said that, you do make some fair points about Police on occasion instigating and/or making worse violence in this situations. As you say however, these situations are very complex, and it is very difficult for them to work out what is going to happen, and who the minority are that are causing the trouble.
I wouldn't know. I think the piece of advice that I shall choose to stick in bold is:
If you feel strongly about some issue, by all means go and peacefully demonstrate. If the unfortunate happends and the thing turns violent, then move out. Let the Police do their job and arrest those responsible - those who are damaging your viewpoint by making it out to be a bunch of trouble makers.
If there is a health risk, then yes, there is a lot to lose. Do you, therefore, advocate the use of the precautionary principle in making these public health decisions ? That is, if there is even the remotest chance of a risk, ban it ? Do you want to make crossing roads illegal (thats not rhetorical, many countries have laws against crossing except at the lights) ?
Bear in mind that the WTO has ruled *twice* on this issue, that there is insufficient evidence for a risk to justify the ban.
There are other, more appropriate forums and methods of expressing concerns than blocking up a city and starting riots.
..., these rioters knowingly put themselves in a position... I have no sympathy for these (cough) people.
But very few that can be as immediately effective as a protest. You obviously don't grasp the usefulness of being in somesone's face. I would assume after being on a mission you would understand how it is much more difficult to say "No" to a person's face than it is over the phone, or to a letter, or an e-mail.
Too bad, I hope someday you don't feel the need to make your opinion heard. And if you do, I hope, for your sake, the world at large is more open-minded than you appear to be.
Given recent accounts of police brutality (in NYC, for example), it would make some sense to not be in the area where a protest might happen--especially as a participant.
Yea, running and hiding is usually a great way to get things changed. Obviously the police (since they're wearing uniforms) are entitled to do whatever is necessary to maintain the status quo.
The most commonly accepted form is greasing a politician. Call it campaign finance. Call it graft...You can buy a politician. And it is perfectly peaceful
Well, tithe your money to Sen. Hatch and go for it. Interesting how your solution is exactly the type of behaviour the protesters are protesting against. You obviously don't get it, in more ways than one.
+&x
Research first, conclusions later.
A small amount of research shows quite clearly that a *very* small contingent of protesters became violent (less than 1%), and that most of them were gathered peacefully until attacked by batons or tear gas. The baton attacks happening *before* there was a single window broken.
The more balanced articles seem to note that it was a peaceful protest with '20-30 anarchists dressed in black' causing the trouble.
Yes, but these corporations often set up shop in nations without minimum wage laws, and pay their workers barely enough to survive. Thus the poor stay poor, the middle class citizens of countries with minimum wage laws lose jobs and get poorer, while those who run the corporations get richer.
Whatever. Dunno 'bout you, but I'm living in a representative democracy in which one of the two legislative houses -- full of elected folks, not appointed... -- has to power to *not* ratify a treaty.
And, wouldn't you know it, one of the members of that legislative body happens to be within easy walking distance today, here for a discussion on high tech.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Whatever. Just peaceful protest, mon'?
So, it's all right if we bulldoze your home? Burn all your property? Demolish your school? All right! We're on it.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
I was playing Half Life's Counter Strike mod... turned on the news and found that it was more exciting to watch the action in real life. Great slide show at: http://www.seattleinsider.com/news/1999/11/30/slid eshow2.html -Infopimp
The WTO helps keep special interests from using vote-based so-called democracy to preserve their past advantages against progess and the future.
No, the WTO is about taking laws to the lowest common denominator for the purpose of "free trade". Environmental laws, health regulations, and other things along these lines have all been considered as "trade barriers" by the WTO. Decided by small, back-room decisions with no accountability.
I'm all for world trade. I'm far from a "luddite" as you claim the anti-WTO people to be. But I'm not for allowing corporations to decide that laws passed for the good of the people should be removed because it keeps them from raking in more money. The WTO's goals are for corporate greed, and little else.
---
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
Actually, there is such a mechanism in many states, including Washington, Oregon and California: referendum and initiative.
Trouble is, elected officials and judges are trying as hard as they can to thwart this mechanism (see Calif. Prop. 187).
Naturally, there are dangers associated with anything as purely democratic as referenda and initiatives, but some deference should be given to the will of the people in absence of any citizen's rights being violated.
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In looking over some of the news photos on the web, I've noticed that the police were not using firearms on the scene, but paintball guns firing rubber balls instead (Tippmann Pro-Carbines, to be exact. You can get 'em at many sporting goods stores throughout the US).
I'm guessing that they're far safer than the firearms and rubber bullets they replaced, though I'm sure there's many a protestor out there covered in welts that might think otherwise... ;)
-- JackCat
As far as I have heard, there WAS a lot of peaceful, organized demonstration. I don't think many people where planning violence. (whether they could have expected it is something different).
As I'm posting anyway, I'd like to say that I'm not happy about the violence, but I'm glad someone was there to protest.
*shrug*
How many people vote against it? You're often given opportunity to do so, with the fringe candidates. The CPUSA once had tens of thousands of declared members, who mostly vanished upon a) hearing about the Stalinist excesses of their "ideal" Rodina, and b) being persecuted after a number of spy scandals involving FDR's administration as well as the Manhattan Project.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
"Imagine a US president being responsive to his/her citizens rather than foreign/domestic business interests! For shame!"
How was that? Pretty good eh?
Adbusters is absolutely brilliant. I just love the idea of using the media to undermine the media. And even better, they're actually good at it: they are wonderful propagandists. Adbusters is actually the only paper magazine I have a subscription to.
I can definitely say that it was a minority of the protestors, and mostly out-of-towners, engaging in property destruction during the protest. Looting where I was (Niketown/Westlake area) didn't happen until after the protest had been cleared by the cops, and it seemed to be carried out mainly by local apolitical high-school students. (The situation was perhaps different at the Starbucks opposite the Westin that got much play on the news; there, protestors were hemmed in.)
On the cops side, I have to applaud most of the individual cops. Most of them, especially the Seattle Police Department, showed remarkable restraint. That being said, I still think it shows a fascist system when cops use tear gas, pepper spray, and rubber bullets from the very start on a peaceful demonstration. (Destructive punks slept in and didn't start breaking windows until their scheduled start at 11:11; tear gas had already been in use for hours at that point.) There were also a few definite bad apples among the police - mostly apparently from nearby PD's - who covered up badges, beat protestors, squirted pepper spray up inside gas masks and then held the masks on, and shot peacefully retreating protestors in the back with rubber bullets. (All of this is first hand or second hand from sources who I know and trust).
For a blow-by-blow account of my day, go to my journal.
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Delegates also attacked... I was part of one of the blockades that remained peaceful, & saw more then one delegate try to physically force his way past the line. One guy who I have to assume was not overly bright (I can't absolutely confirm he was a delegate, but he appeared to be & was carrying wto credentials), after being turned away walked about twenty feet in front of our line & turned & charged head first into the line (three people deep with linked arms). When that didn't work he turned around, walked away, then turned & tried again...
Another delegate apparently pepper sprayed one of the blockades in a failed attempt to break through.
My favorite was the guy who got beligerent when we wouldn't let him pass. He said he was only trying to go see the new bond film at the theater around the corner. Once we pointed out to him that even if we let him pass, the squad of police in full riot gear immediately behind us wouldn't let him go any further, he decided that protesting would be more fun anyway, & he joined up.
It is true that only a very small percentage of the protesters were violent. A group of 20 to 30 anarchists in town from Eugene, OR was responsible for most of the vandalism, & add in a few troublemakers who are always join in when ever there's an opportunity to do so. Unfortunately, those few troublemakers gave the police the excuse they were looking for to escalate the situation. Had the police actually made even a token efffort to arrest those responsible, rather then simply attacking everyone, the entire situation could have been diffused without a problem.
Today, the city has instituted a "no protest zone" covering much of the downtown area & has pledged that anyone priotesting within that zone-- peaceful or otherwise-- will be summarily arrested, a policy that to me appears to be a clear violation of the first ammendment. Also, one of the main -peaceful- protest groups had all of their banners & communications equipment confiscated. The police claimed that the banners could be used as weapons (a shaky argument at best), but I can see absolutely no reason to sieze the radios that is not a clear first ammendment violation (the radios are used as safety equipment in addition to general organizational purposes).
You've fallen for a big load of slanted bullshit.
Read this news story.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/991130/bdz.html
It delivers a less biased view, and shows that MOST of the demonstrators WERE peaceful. It's only a small minority of agitators that are doing the window breaking. As with any group, it's easy to fall into the trap of judging the whole by a few bad eggs. But this is really a very diverse group.
The WTO has managed to piss off a broad spectrum of people. Gee, I wonder how you do that, in a democratic nation?
Telling these people that they have no right to march, and that they ought to grease a politician is lunacy. We don't all have nice fat stock options, or mommy and daddy's trust fund to siphon off of. Some people need to work for a living. And they'd just like the opportunity to do so without being fucked-over by some dictatorial group that caters to big business' whims.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The Chinese factory working making $300 per year is living in China...
You have to take that $300 in the context of someone in China. They have a lower cost of living than people in North America. It may sound like an impossible amount to live on, and true, it's not much, but it certainly goes farther in China than it would in N.America.
---
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
I thought you were just one of those many people who rejects socialism out of hand because they know communism fell in Europe and never learned about the welfare state of, e.g., Germany. I apologize for the error. Clearly you are much better educated and omre thoughtful than that!
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
I clearly misunderstood your point. Again, I apologize.
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
*sighs*
Sit down and think about this for a minute, and you'll realize the exact reason why this sort of thing should be on Slashdot.
Would you rather be force-fed the obvious sensationalist crap that the media presents, or come to a forum like this where we can get intelligent (sometimes, anyway) discussion, and more importantly, first-hand accounts?
If you don't like it, go into your user prefs and filter out the "news" category.
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
The WTO doesn't seem to stop workers from organizing or even coutries from passing laws preventing sweatshops and the like. Certainly sweatshops are a bad idea but if the WTO has provisions to somehow penalize countries with sweatshops this will be used by rich countries to justify tariffs against these countries.
As is clear from looking at the history of the US and England sweatshops occur in developing countries whether or not they are competing against developed nations. These sweatshops then tend to disappear as the level of affluence rises to the point that the workers are no longer extremly dependent on the companies (in a poor enough country a workers strike will bring minimal results). Thus by placing tarriffs on a devloping country we could very well be hurting there industrialization and hence prolonging the period of poor workers rights.
In principle an *appropriate* policy could convince the developing nations to have better labour standards in return for no tarriffs, however, such a policy is too likely to be abused by industrial nations which have a large voter block that is scared of competition from these countries. In addition it might make the WTO unpallatable to these developing countries thus obstructing its ennactment and increasing labour abuses.
The enviornmental claims may have some merit but I was saying that any real issue their is getting buried under slogans and unions protesting the decline of their power.
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
The primary argument for free trade is that of specilization. Perhaps the Japenese can make cars cheaper then we can and we can make wheat cheaper than they can. If there are significant tariffs we will end up making cars for ourselves and they will end up making wheat for themselves. In the case without tarriffs we make the wheat and they make the cars for everyone. Thus the same amount of goods are produced but less resources are consumed in making them hence everyone is better off. In addition having one large world market vs. many seperate markets allows economies of scale to kick in further benifiting the world at large.
>The fudamnetal flaw of capitalism, IMHO, is that the philosophy it springs from does not realize that it is in the selfish (best) interest of everyone to cooperate with
>everyone else.
But capitalism does NOT prevent cooperation...it merely says you are free to compete. If people wanted to organize themselves into communes in a captilistic systems they can. For instance kibbitzs (?) in isreal. The fact that people in fact do not act this way is in some sense proof that people aren't ready for a fully cooperative society.
Secondly even in non-capitlistic situations (say research scientists with tenure) there is still plenty of competion for recognition or other such non-monetary values.
In response to the maize farmers it is true that they may be put out of a job but this is precisely because they farm maize extremly inefficently compared to american farmers. So certainly if trade barriers were immediatly droped tomorrow the sudden shit would hurt this third world nation. However if the barriers are droped slowly (especially if the rich countries drop them first although this seems unliekly) (and the WTO doesn't look like it is going to drop all tarriffs immediatly) the maize farmers will transfer into some other sort of jobs (working at a nike plant or some such) thus because maize is cheaper now they will have more maize in the country in addition to faster industrilization by the location of factories in their country.
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
Honestly the WTO is an organization that has to be rethought as a whole. In this country (america) it is very hard to get a bit of information that does not have some sort of a spin on it. I am not surprized by the lack of information concerning the WTO. By design the wto is not open to the public. Although heads of corperations are present at the meeting average citizens are not allowed in.
I find this very disturbing. What I also find disturbing is that BILL GATES III!!!!! WILL BE CHAIRING THIS MEETING!!! If that is an indication of the quality of person that is at this meeting I would be very worried.
First of all, sovereignty sucks. Really, I don't see what's so great about it. I mean; do you really feel like the US government acts in your interests? I don't see why a world government would be any worse. Think about how much the EU governments seem to care about citizen privacy when compared to the US government.
Look, France, Germany, and other European governments are giving up some sovereignty to be a part of the EU. I care about my rights, and as long as there preserved, why should I care whose running the show? (couldn't do a worse job then the idiots we've got now, could they?)
Also, while there were a lot of people, there were over 250,000 at Marten Luther King's March on Washington, and over 400,000 at the 'million man march' much more then 50,000. In any event, how can you possibly say that this single event, witch did turn violent is possibly larger then the entire civil rights movement, with its many, larger, and lessviolent protests?
ohhh, while watching CNN, I just saw an advertisement for you're little 'protest' "lets go to Seattle and put that on the WTO agenda"www.adbusters.org You can tell a real grassroots movement by there slick television advertisements.
As for people jumping down my throat, go ahead, I don't usually to ranting. I wouldn't mind hearing some of the real issues (witch you have not done).
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I wonder if CNN knows they just bought an episode of JAG from CBS.
-==-
Most of the protestors are non-violent, intelligent, and well-intentioned. However, a few are not, and they're the ones doing the damage. Apparently the looting, etc., this afternoon was done almost entirely by a small group (30 or so) of anarchists who dressed all in black and didn't even show their faces. The real protestors tried to stop them, knowing the damage they'd do to the protest. The few hundred people who intentionally broke curfew are mostly just doing it to defy authority because it's authority. Again, this is only three or four hundred out of 20,000+.
As a sidenote to one of the reports on the radio, they mentioned that many of the delegates conversed with the protestors outside the convention center (as they couldn't get in). Both sides actually talked about issues and explained why they were there. That's the news that should have come out of today, not the violence and looting and burning and such. But human nature being what it is, a small group had to ruin it for everyone.
BTW, there's a rumor here that this anarchy group has stolen a petroleum truck and plans to wreak havoc with it tomorrow - anyone else hear this? Is it just someone's imagination, or real?
Just ramblings from another annoyed Washington State college student...
First of all, the National Park Police will tell you otherwise wrt it being the largest protest in US history. They count people at protests/deomonstrations in DC that take place on federal land. You don't get to be largest unless you are counting people in hundreds of thousands. Second, sovreignity is not an issue. Member nations of the WTO are members by choice. If the WTO is encroaching on a member nation's sovreignity, the member nation can leave the WTO. They stay members because it is beneficial to the workers and consumers in the nation for the nation to stay a member of the WTO. Finally, calling that a civil protest is an insult to those who have participated in civil protests. Civil protests do not require the local police to break out the SWAT teams and tear gas. Civil protests do not involve looting or general destruction of property. I think Starbucks is bringing about the downfall of Just Plain Coffee, but I feel sorry for them for having stores looted by what you are refering to as civil protestors. Frankly, I hold the protestors responsible for the damage done by vandals who are unassociated with the protest. By taking actions that require such a large police presence, the protestors stripped the citizens of Seattle of their right to police protection that their local taxes pay for. Call me a capitalist pig, a heartless bastard, or whatever you prefer. I think that a lot of people are passing harsh judgements of the WTO without a complete comprehension of what it is that the WTO does, and what the limits of it's power are.
itachi, card carrying member of the oppresive bourgeoisie conspiracy against the glorious worker
In a way this is true, however the issue of self governing vs. supranationalism is one that will have great importance in the next few years. The United Nations is currently not allowed to interfer in internal affairs, however many people believe the only way that the UN will ever be able to do anything is if they have this power. I agree that it is wrong to interfer with internal afairs, but this issue is not linited to the WTO, and a doubt that an incident like this would happen over the UN.
I honestly believe that most of the people here are just what i would call 'do gooders'. They want a fight (not usually physical), and they will fight for anything that the see as the 'good' thing, with little regard for what is right. I remeber from when i was in university this was common, and a doubt much has changed. A good example of this was a show i saw on tv about the tibet concerts. One of the people that was attending said 'I'm here to show my support to the tibeten(sp?) people, its really sad that their depressed'.
I hope nobody critized the mayor or the police for what they are doing, it is amazing what can happen when mob mentality takes over.
Anyway, i hope that there are few injuries on either side, and that the meeting can take place, and that people have a chance to aire their grevences in a rational environment, instead of on a street.
I recommend that you read up on what is going on. When there is more than say 10,000 people gathering to protest you should really look into the reasons behind it.
http://www.harmonizationalert.org/
Try here.
Or here
http://www.tradewatch.org/
You are totally wrong about that. A number of protests and demonstrations have been larger in US history. For example, Martin Luther King's famous March on Washington in 1963 drew a quarter of a million people. Somehow they managed to avoid looting and rioting, too..
Protests in DC over such contemporary issues as abortion have drawn larger crowds, as well. You really need to get your facts straight. However, considering you support the protest, it's unlikely you are intrigued by facts.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
Matt XVI said:
... with none of the responsiblities that come with those rights. This is the problem. The government has created an imbalance by creating an immortal 'individual' with all the rights that that entails, and none of the responsiblities. As someone who believes in the free market, I find this repugnant. The WTO is being used to further the rights of corporations, without adressing the concerns of us mere mortal individuals.
(NB ALL rights are individual rights)
This may be true, but corporations are considered individuals by the law
As far as your comment of lowering trade barriers goes, good for you. If you believe that buying the cheapest goods possible, made by someone making a daily wage less than you spend on coffee, Yippee. Me, I work as hard as I can to make enough money that I can buy (relatively expensive) goods made by people who make as much as I do. If the WTO helps even the playing feild for people making a living wage, YAY!.... That however does not seem to be the goal.
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
What deepened the great depression? Are you an economist or an economics genius? NO!
Are you? We have no way of knowing this, since you chose to go AC. I'm not; although I've taken a couple of courses on economics I don't claim to be a genius.
You have to realize that tariffs and trade barriers increase world suffering.
Agreed, to a point. But the lack thereof can be just as bad, and have exactly the same effects, only in different regions. Sad as the truth may be, you cannot completely eliminate world suffering. The best you can do is minimize it, try not to cause any more of it, and try help those who are suffering from it.
Japan would have NEVER attacked US in WWII if the US didn't bring about the Holly Smoot tariff which effectively cut Japan off.
That's "Hawley-Smoot." And it cut everyone off, so why didn't everyone attack? For that matter, how are you so certain that was the reason Japan attacked at all (remember, they're historically very protectionist also)? Again, these are honest questions.
So in fact what you are protesting for is the collective suffering of everyone and a greater disparity between land renters and land owners rather than just rich or poor.
Wrong again. The fact is, he's got a point. People tend to see the US, because of its affluence, as a nation of rich people. This is hardly the case. While we do have a lot of rich people, and those people are very rich indeed, they're still an extremely small minority of the population. I would say that no more than five thousand, maybe ten thousand Americans are in a position really benefit at all from WTO. That leaves over three hundred million others in a position to suffer, and suffer greatly, as their jobs go where labor is cheaper.
I should point out that when jobs go overseas, suffering for those tho get the jobs rarely ends. It's not like they get paid nearly as much as their US counterparts (for if they did, then what would the point of moving the jobs be?) Most don't even get a twentieth of what a US worker makes, and the working conditions are awful. That's what's known as a "sweatshop" and it's what happens to most jobs when they go overseas. That's not stopping suffering, merely transmuting it to a different form (now, instead of suffering from having no money, they suffer under abominable labor conditions for obscene hours and still don't have much more money than they did before). So now, you don't just have an American who's suffering from unemployment, you also have someone overseas who got the job but is still suffering (which the American would not have been had he or she kept the job). People forget that businesses are ruthless whenever they can get away for it, and why not? Businesses exist for one reason alone: to make money. They'll do this by any means they can get away with; that's the nature of comeptition. Laws can be enacted to make sure business act honorably, but those are useless if they can't reach somewhere that the business can.
This is the problem with the WTO. Its theory is great. The problem is, it's not executed very well. It does nothing to level the playing field across nations (which was its original purpose; it just doesn't do anything which will do that).
A trade organization which ensured fair wages and working conditions in its member nations would be one thing. But WTO doesn't do that. All it does is drop barriers to trade, without a thought as to what lies on both sides of those barriers.
Think about free trade for a second. What free trade is is a way for the rich to get richer. Those who can afford to set up manufacturing plants in foreign third world countries and ship manufactured goods benefit immensely from Free Trade.
It also alows the poor to get richer. If those 'rich bastards' didn't setup shop in the 3rd world, how would they get jobs?
Do you belive that its more imporntant for Americans to have jobs then people in other contrys? I don't. And just beacuse people don't working arn't in the US, it dosn't mean that there being 'exsploited'
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Maybe it's because I was from China, and I know many people there liked to be "exploited", just like poor areas here in Urban district in america trying to attract "investments". I normally agree with progressive causes, but not on WTO issue.
Just like in civil right movement, it's admirable that some whites were fighting along with blacks, but ultimately it was fight of black people and nothing could have been achieved without black's leadership and paticipation. If it's a 3rd world's problem, let them fight their fight.
I am aware a lot of US manufacture jobs are lost to 3rd world countries. But protectionism is not the solution. WTO is not the forum. Trying to tie labor and environment into WTO IS making WTO into a world goverment. If you afraid of losing your jobs and want Buccanna be president, say it out loud.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
These riots seemed pretty certain to happen, with as much anger and bad blood over the WTO.
Here are some things that are immediately apparent to me about these riots:
masks
People are afraid at these protests, many are trying to hide their identities with scarves, bandanas, masks and hoods. This can be attributed to three factors, the most important, IMHO, being that people are worried about reprisals and retribution even for attending the peaceful protests. The other two factors seem to be CS gas protection (not effective unless face covering is wet and covers eyes) and the natural inclination to disguise while vandalizing, for the more violent protesters.
disinformation
Major media outlets (CNNonline, local TV in Boston, Reuters) and the Seattle PD are not acknowledging using rubber bullets or CS (tear) gas, despite photos, video and eyewitness accounts of the use of both. Medics have reported treating CS burns, yet CNN claims that only pepper spray is being used.
evolving state of govt and economy
People from all over the political spectrum, left, right libertarian and "buchananites", are out there with a beef against the WTO. People are flying in from all over the world with an agenda against the WTO. Ergo, no one likes the WTO, except for those who stand to directly benefit from it's existence. Those benefits do not seem to extend to ordinary citizens, be they Bangladeshi, American or Estonian. Instead, they seem to benefit an increasingly powerful group of professional politicians, worldwide, and the people and companies that keep them in power.
This "new cultural elite" (LM 125) draws influences from all over the political spectrum, but increasingly demands structure, stability and authority in a suddenly fluid world. It purports capitalism, while working towards something an egalitarian and open capitalism should find anathema. Markets are increasingly being propped up, lowered, tweaked and micromanaged, by unelected "officials" who continuously enact new rules and regulations that directly harm people's lives, with no accountability. The WTO is one of many, many examples of a political tool that does that. In among some of the news stories and weblogs discussing the WTO are some horror stories about things the WTO has done. The major problem is a total lack of accountability, so they do whatever they feel like. The resentment this has caused, worldwide, is prompting people to vent their spleens in Seattle, because they most definitely do want control of their own lives.
J05H
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
um, the WTO cannot overide any contrys laws, unless the contry lets them. The WTO does not have any military force.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I am a bit suprised to see this on slashdot, but since it's here I have a few things to say :)
I posted this link earlier on the "cyber-sit in story" or whatever it was called. I'll warn you this time that it is a very left-wing site, but don't worry, it won't kill you. In fact, you might learn something. It's a good addition to mainstream coverage that doesn't talk about the WTO at a particularly intellectual level.
Z magazine WTO coverage
I didn't think so many people would end up protesting. This is good because it gives the issue LOTS of attention. As usual the media has overblown the violence, looks like a few bonfires and some broken windows. But it looks like its getting a lot uglier. It's been mostly peaceful from what I've seen other than blocking traffic and enterance to the event. Hopefully people from Seattle will keep us up to date.
The WTO applies to the computer and sofware industry the same as it does to every other industry. The WTO is, in my opinion, a government by and for corporations. They don't have any accountabilty to the public. They can overturn laws in any member country that are deemed unfair to competition. The most common example I have seen is that countries in Europe were cited by the WTO for not allowing the sale of American beef products because the cows were treated with hormones. CNN.com has a few other examples in their coverage.
I think the WTO is an extreme form of capitalism that REALLY puts money before people. It takes control away from local governments and the people.
Globalization definately has its benefits. I think most people reading this can see them as far as the hardware and software industry, especially our trade relationship with Asian countries. I see it as a step twords global unification (well, a really small step). But when labor rights and the environment aren't put first, no one wins, and the gap between the rich and poor gets wider. I think this is why so many protesters have descended on Seattle. Corporations have gone too far this time. The establishment better be careful or the next decade could end up being a rehash of the 60's with globalization as the central issue.
At any rate it's an important issue that everyone should try to learn about.
Not only are they doing no good, but also they're fueled but Labor Unions Advertising money. In fact, they (www.adbusters.org) had the audacity to continue there adverting (I wouldn't have seen them, if I hadn't turned on CNN), even after the rioting.
Meanwhile, important issues like Privacy, crypto, Censorship fall right through the cracks (There was a protest of the CDA in Silicon Valley. 60 people showed up)
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
so, yes the Protesters aren't violating the constitutional rights of the WTO, because the protesters are not a part of the government.
However, I doubt that violent rioting is going to do much for there cause. Most people are going to be turned off by this.
Any organization that can afford slick television ads (I just saw one, from www.adbusters.org, telling people to go to Seattle) Probably doesn't really have your best interests in mind, IMO
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The WTO has many many good points and several very troubling points such as patent issues and the ever increasing power of corporations. Unfortunatly this protest distracts attention from the real issues and focuses them on the non-issues of unionized labour and 'workers rights.' The violence involved makes it even worse, no one will take seriously the intellectual property concerns after this.
For the record I call the labour concerns irrelevant because at heart of the matter all that is important is how much stuff the workers recieve. Lowering tarriffs can only increase the total amount of goods in a country (more goods enter the nation) and while some citizens may be demoted to lesser jobs a fluid job market will guarantee everyone is still employed and hence the country has more goods in total.
So the net effect of trade barriers is to favor organized labour at the expense of the rest of the country. While you might feel that working class people deserve more money this could easily be accomplished by increasing federal aid to those who don't make much money. Increasing this aid would accomplish the goal of makeing sure the working class are not impoverished while not reducing the total amount of goods in the country.
On the other hand the WTO's seemingly strong stance on intellectual property might restrict the adoption of new/more efficent technology thereby making the world as a whole a less wealthy place (yes I realize IP is necessery to encourage innovation the trick is striking the right balance). But this issue will now be ignored.
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
I, for one, am very disturbed by the fact that most of the clothes I'm wearing were most likely made by underpriviledged workers, not only in third-world countries, but also here in the US. When the people have a very limited choice, when all they've been given are what they don't want, it's not necessarily their fault if they use it. It is their fault if they don't do anything about it.
I'm just afraid that the overly sensational US media is going to focus on the 20 or 30 idiots who made serious trouble, while the other 40-50K people there behaved themselves. The tension in this country has been growing at a very visible rate in the last few years and I think this is just one of the first (mostly) good outwards signs of it.
Being a (young) 20-something myself, most of the people I know (an interesting mix, seeing as I have both leftist or libertarian friends yet go to a very conservative school) are frustrated and angry about the state of politics in this country. The average person no longer has a voice, and large corporations and government institutions are working hard to make sure we have even less of a voice. Restrictions on encryption, anyone? More wiretapping capabilities built into our hardware and software? The "right" of the NSA and FBI to circumvent due process and keep people under surveillence without a warrant?
The WTO (good article here in pdf) has a track record of leveragaing their power to tromp the soverign laws of independent countries in order to make more money (article here). Powerful representatives from the US and large corporations convince small, developing nations that they need the latest whiz-bang-all-in-one products to even survive in the new world. These representatives then provide tasty soundbites wherein they ask for free trade and villify the protestors for not allowing their poor, starving country to get the best TVs out there (yes, bad example, but you get the point). It's for reasons like this that when I have kids they will never ever have Gerber baby food.
And for everyone who's been saying "Hippie, go home", RTFA (articles) before you make yourself look stupid. Thousands of people from all different walks of life are protesting this, not just a few "burnt-out acid-dropping hippies who crawled out of the woodwork", as much as you'd like to believe that. Middle-aged people who know this is a Bad Thing (TM) are right next to youth who feel they want to make a difference and are motivated to do so. Prominent figures have lent their voices to causes such as this, and the difference is starting to be felt. Previous generations had The Who, The Clash and U2 to send out the call for arms and action against the oppresive elements of their times. Today, groups like Rage Against The Machine are sending out the call to action and education to the youth of today. Do you think it's an accident their album debuted at #1 and is currently the #2 selling album in the world?? I don't think anything short of physical action on this scale (meaning large peaceful yet committed protest groups) are going to bring about the change we need.
Educate yourself. Let yourself get angry. And then do something constructive and meaningful to channel that anger. My 100% support to the protesters in Seattle. Not to mention somewhat reluctant thanks to the police out there for not allowing a re-creation of the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago to occur.
-jdm
I disagree
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
Well, sir, perhaps I was misleading when I said that I was currently *in* Pioneer Square - I was NOT trying to say that the turmoil was happening IN Pioneer Square. You are right, it has been mostly quiet throughout the day. Not completely quiet, but mostly - there was a group of people wearing black with costume blood carrying coffins and "mourning" around mid morning, for instance. (no, not the "black robed anarchists" - these were other protesters)
:)
What I was saying is that "the Downtown area (starting 2 blocks north...)" was the location where these things were taking place. For the most part... pretty much completely... my post was referring to the downtown core, not where I currently am. I'm sorry for the confusion...
To clarify:
Yes, Pioneer Square has gone relatively untouched all day today. Yes, the protests affecting this area were last night - I was here working until 2am, and saw that, too. Downtown today was a horrible mess, and that was what I was talking about. I wasn't trying to say that this was armageddon, just that todays events were pretty wild and surreal.
And yes, when I posted the original post, there was an APC parked just up 1st Ave (just past Yesler), and another had driven by recently. There were also several helicopters that flew over this area on their way north. I didn't know when the Nat'l Guard was arriving, which is why I didn't say that they were here - just that they had been called.
On a side note - you said that all the homeless had been 'discreetly removed from the area'? What part of Pioneer Sq were they removed from? The same group of homeless are out in Occidental Park by the firemen statue that are always there - more, in fact, since the paddywagon that is usually parked near there isn't around.
I agree with your post for the most part, although it started out a little more hostile than it needed to be... just my opinion.
- strabo
No, the idea of the WTO is to increase free trade and lower (with the intention of eventually removing) tariffs, quotas, and the like. It can be beneficial even to non-members - country A joins WTO, lowers imports quotas for everyone, country B, not a member, has something they want to export to country A, and so they are better off because country A joined. Now, this wont necessarily happen, because the WTO membership influences trade behavior wrt other members, not to the entire world. However, a forward thinking nation would see that the lowering of trade barriers to everyone means greater competition and lower prices for all goods, with increased specialization. Life gets good for everyone when everyone starts to see things like that.
itachi
You've must have been watching KING 5 TV all day!
Pioneer Square (we live here) is almost untouched. And the Nat'l Guard don't arrive until tomorrow am anyway.
P square was affected mostly *last* night when 8,000/10,000 church-sponsored protestors staged an incredible "human chain" potest which encircled all the parking area of the football stadium, barricaded at either end against their attempt to reach the Paul Allen-sponsored Exhibition Hall, where Bill Gates and Boeing head Phil Condit were "entertaining" (read lobbying) the WTO delegates.
Aim: a protest to make the WTO cancel third world countries' debts. This was peaceful and passed off with NO problem (and almost NO media mentions at *all*). But it was incredibly powerful due to the faceoff of a set of motorcycle cops (approx 40) and riot cops who harangued the demonstrators at the demarcation line. Also because: it was pouring and freezing. They chanted, "We're here, we're wet, cancel the debt!"
BTW, check out how much Gates & Co are paying for their lobbying opportunities at www.corpwatch.org/calandar/
Police restraint? Not exactly considering the marginality of offenses actually committed amidst a 40,000-person union march and constant nonviolent actions by 5-8,000 additional protesters - which occupied most of the day (total arrests before mid-afternoon: 12, including five people arrested for banner-hanging)
None of this, however, involved Pioneer Square (although here, as everywhere else in town, the homeless have been discreetly removed from the area...unlike Belltown, tho, they haven't been replaced by pots of petunias!). The chase/gas/chase and firing of rubber bullets went on all day in the _city center_, near the WTO convention area... our poor excuse for a Mayor, Paul Schell, declared his "state of emergency" around 3pm in a dumb fit of over-reaction.
This was, sadly for him, at the same time as several local newscasters got hit by CS gas. They stopped playing nice guy and pointed out that the cops were firing rubber bullets, lobbing explosive tear gas greandes embedded with same and firing at anything which moved. They, for instance, caught some people on their way home from offices.
Most people here _outside_ the media knew something just like this would happen, for many reasons. One of the main ones, however, is that many people are sick of Gates and Allen being allowed to effectively run Seattle...whether by building sports facilities we don't need or being (esp by the media) treated as our de facto mayors and superiors.
I happened to be near some of the "action" around noon. The protestors blockaded a downtown street (4th and Union for you locals) with overturned dumpsters, and formed a human wall, preventing any vehicle traffic from passing. The police were very patient and tolerant in the face of the screaming crowd. After about 45 minutes of blockade, a police officer announced with a bullhorn that the protestors would be tear-gassed if they did not move immediately. I was only 50 feet away, and could not hear a word the police officer said over the protestors. The people in the back of the crowd (mostly innocent bystanders) had little warning when tear-gas and pepper spray were lobbed into the crowd.
Like the rest of the crowd, I ran down the street, eyes stinging and throat burning. The police were able to clear the road, but for what purpose I cannot tell. The police did not attempt to move the dumpsters so that the street could be utilized.
That hot-spot was in stark contrast to a human chained formed to the east (Pike and Boren), near the WTO meeting site. There, the protestors had a legal advisory team, and a negotiating team in constant contact with the police, and remained calm and co-operative at all times.
In the end, I think this communication between the opposing groups (Police and protestors) made all the difference.
And this is what most of the protestors wanted: to have dialogue with the WTO in any way they could, and try to make a difference.
Wait, are they trying to stop the protest, even the legal parts of it, so lots of foreign business attracted to the city by the convention will stay?
It looks like (imho, anyways) that this is an arbitrary suspension of civil liberties designed to help people the mayor likes.
And I'm not usually prone to conspiracies of this sort, but, damn. This just isn't right.
The only time that the UN can ever interfere in a country is if there is a major violation of human rights, however this really does not interfere with the right to govern any more then not allowing me to kill someone interferes with my freedom. The ideal UN (as far as they're concencerned) is a body with complete political control. However nobody was willing to give this up, so they gave everybody complete sovernty.
This ideal will never work, as it is impossible to look out for everyone, just look at the Austrian and Ottoman empires. We must however ask how much power the UN should have.
Secondly, if you think that Hiroshima was as bad as the Holocaust then you must be insane. 12 million people were killed in the Holocaust, in a form of genocide, 80,000 were killed in Hiroshima, in what probably saving a 2-3 million on both sides of continued fighting. If you believe this is just propoganda, look at the casualties from the Japanese war, and consiter attacking the Japanese homeland, it would have been a long battle. The entire war horrific, Hiroshima was only a small part of it.
...To get some new shoes and stuff. Maybe do a little X-mas "shopping". Anybody need anything?
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
I was listening to the radio and one commentator said how easy it would be to discredit all the protestors in seattle by simply hiring a few skinheads to disrupt the protests which would mean that the police would come in and whatnot and no one's message would really be heard. Is this the start of a new trend? I don't know what happened down there but that comment is pretty unfortunate.
I'm not sure which to think actually, if rioting or peaceful protests help more. I tend to think that rioting and violence brings about a immediate coverage but basically no change unless you take over the organization you're protesting against. Peaceful protest on the other hand actually get a message out rather than people seeing that people are mad for some reason... but a lot of people are anti-authority just by nature these days and their 'opinion' about an organization might be swayed simply because other people don't like them.
But who would you rather have protesting against an organization.. a bunch of idiots, or those who actually know the issues?
rm -rf ~/.signature
Actually, it was a propane tanker.
It was stolen early monday morning, and is most likely completely unrelated. Its a rumor that is probably just that - a rumor.
Here's the text of an article about it:
An alert went out to law enforcement agencies Monday that someone stole a truck loaded with propane.
Security officials at WTO in Seattle were among those notified.
Pierce County Sheriff's officials say the timing of the theft is causing alarm.
The propane truck had more than 2,200 gallons of explosive propane gas when it was stolen at about 3:00 a.m. Monday morning in an unincorporated part of Pierce County.
The Sheriff's Department issued a bulletin advising other agencies of the theft.
The sheriff's office also says there's nothing to link the theft to the WTO
- strabo
The WTO doesn't particularly support unions, and they are undermined anyway by the competition created between factory workers in different countries. A company can say to a union "accept these concessions or we'll take all these jobs to another country where we can pay them 10% as much."
This is why the AFL-CIO has so many members there protesting right now. But I agree with most of the rest of your comments.
These should be better in the AM. Reply with new streams and webcams, please.
.wsdot.wa.gov/PugetSoundTraffic/cameras/imagehtml/ cctv117a.htm .asp a pbonline/scannerlive_sea.asx 8 000&file=filename.plsrtsp://kgw.solidweb .com/encoder/kgw-g2.rm
Cameras
http://www.historylink.org/gazette/g azette.htm
http://www
http://209.20.207.37/index.html
http://www.spaceneedle.com/view/livecam
http://www.seattleinsider.com/news/ cameras.html
Audio
http://128.95.10.82:8000/
ht tp://tm.intervu.net/template/smirror/ivtemplates/
http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/ shoutcast-playlist.pls?rn=6416&addr=209.201.3.17:
What's going on in Seattle is fascinating. Beirut you say? Hmmm...
Beirut I can understand. Kosovo as well. This? No. Here? Never!
I grew up in Warsaw and came to the US at the ripe old age of 10 (in '83). By that age, I knew what tear gas smelled like. It's not something 10 year olds should know. But, I can honestly say, I knew if for good reason. I was there when the fuse was lit, on the bomb called Solidarity. That bomb blew up the Berlin Wall and the USSR.
Being from Poland, I imagine that I have a little more insight into the ageless ethnic tensions that made the former Yugoslavia into the blood-bath that it was. A little more insight than the average US citizen, since here people tend to hate each other for color, creed, idealism and other easily observable traits. There, people are more tolerant of such extreme differences, and hate over the history of a neighbor's bloodline. But I digress... (these are my opinions BTW, flame on!)
Seattle is on the other coast, and while I can see it on the screen, I keep expecting Orson Wells to come out of the shadows and laugh into the camera.
I can only ask myself 'why?'...
What do those rioting people rage against? Tyrants? Taxes? The killing of priests? Or is it just the imposition of a more global economy, that would bring the American standard of living (which I very much enjoy BTW) out of the stratosphere and onto the more level plane of globalisation?
Would these people still be there if they knew that the alternative to what the WTO stands for is (for example) a 200% increase in the cost of gasoline? Do they really want to HAVE TO grow their own vegetables, pluck their own chickens and ride a bike for transportation rather than cheeseburger-burning exercise?
And will I have to pay more at Starbucks in the morning?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
It just pissed off the british even more. I really doubt that we wouldn't have won the War if it hadden't happend. Read the book The March of Folly by Barbra W Trunchman(sp?). Its an intresting read.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
No, this is not true. They can tell their member nations to change their laws as pertaining to free trade. If the nation doesn't want to change the laws, they can always leave the WTO. Please research the WTO before furthering propaganda.
itachi
Western contries will gain more advantage by puting 3rd world into product markets and raw material providers Oh, no! third-world citizens might get money and they might be able to buy stuff with it!!! That would be so terrible.
really this thing is ridicules. The WTO makes no policy on the environment, this would be akin to a mob of people trashing your home because you didn't donate to the salvation army or something.
The only people this hurts are US labor unions, who apparently thing that its much, much more important for US blue color workers to get a lot of money then it is for 3rd world-ers to get food...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Why Seattle? Because Boeing has shipped endless jobs out of there in the last few years. Japan, China - they're all getting a slice. When a Chinese machinist costs $20 less per hour than their US counterpart, you can bet your bottom dollar that job will move.
You know, I keep hearing people like Michel More, and other hardcore left/Hardcore right complain that jobs are leaving the US. And yet, no one has ever said why it is that US jobs are more important then jobs in other countries. Yes, they pay less, but then Mexicans still need to eat, right?
So, I would like it if you would answer this question:
Why are US jobs more important then jobs in other countries?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Hrm. I dissagree with the protesters, in both there means, and there goals. So, I'm ether a troll or a WTO astro-turfer? um. Yeh...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Interesting points, all. I wish you the best with your protesting. Me, I'm just anti-everything, more or less. Or, if you're an optimist, I'm highly pro-Me. But if people get their kicks enslaving the downtrodden masses / fighting for the cause of the downtrodden masses / being downtrodden... well, more power to them. None of them are right, and none of them are wrong. We all choose our respective poisons.
----
Morning gray ignites a twisted mass of foreign shapes and sounds
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
There is more than just the one post there. There is a discussion of a sort that you no longer see on /. because the pace here does not lend itself to serious discussion.
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
so, yes the Protesters aren?t violating the constitutional rights of the WTO, because the protesters are not a part of the government.
I'm not sure I'm parsing your comment correctly... that was my point. I was responding to the previous poster who had claimed that the protesters were infringing on the WTO delegates' freedom of assembly.
I agree that violent protest usually doesn't raise people's opinion of you. (But that's not universally true...) However, most of the protest was not violent- see some of the other posts here, and read some of the news stories and you'll see what I mean. It certainly wasn't a bunch of people who just got together and decided to break stuff to protest WTO.
Any organization that can afford slick television ads (I just saw one, from www.adbusters.org, telling people to go to Seattle) Probably doesn?t really have your best interests in mind, IMO
Yeah. Though that pretty much applies to everyone in the whole mess equally. I'd study the issue, make up my own mind, and stay away from either side's propaganda.
-jacob
Live MP3 stream at http://128.95.10.82:8000/
Its "For" the labor unions, who want to keep Jobs from the third world, and here in the US. Why? beacuse there selfish, thats why.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The cnn link listed in the article is broken. The correct link is here.
-jacob
I find it pretty amazing that people were able to motivate Americans like this, what happend to the culture of apathy?
Oh well, I guess they have a right to exspress there oppinions, but they should have been a little more courtious.
World Trade Organization.
a group of contrys working together, on trade issues. The idea is to alow free trade between contrys. A good thing IMO, workers rights and the environment would be just as bad without it, so I don't see why all these seatiletes are getting there pantys in a bunch.
Probably just a bunch of Ex-hippies wanting to relive there glory days, or somthing
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
> ...a group of hippies...hodge-podge mix of students and "labour union" supporters - union stiffs...
It is easy to attack the protesters by characterizing them as a group of "Hippies students and union stiffs" without bother to ever understand or address any real issues they might bring up. I find this attack on the character of the protesters a cheap attempt to discredit them without actually addressing any of their reasons for protesting.
It gets going here. Worth skimming. (OK, so I am biased, but I don't feel like retyping all of those points I made..:-)
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
I'm not sure I'm parsing your comment correctly... that was my point. I was responding to the previous poster who had claimed that the protesters were infringing on the WTO delegates' freedom of assembly.
:)
Yes, it was your point. I'm agreeing with you
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Free trade in the world guarantee that the best
products are produced at a competitive price.
Free trade guarantees nothing. We've had free trade here in America in the software industry for years - need I tell you where that thought is going?
the US, the best
country in the world. To think the contrary is
a symptom of stupidity and ignorance.
Heh, funny how that looks when you move the context around a little. I bet all those poor, unhappy, ignorant, and *cough* stupid FINNISH people are feeling pretty bad for themselves right now. Yup. Life is hard over there in the boonies.
The criminals in Seatle are for the most part
unions brainless jerks, basket weaving university
graduates and other morons.
Heh, you've just made this too easy.
Anyways, I use the subtle flame to make a point: There are no guarantees - we, as Americans, are not all THAT much 'better off' than a lot of citizens of socialist, semi-facist, or other democratic countries - Free Trade is about money, money, money, money, and it aint about money for you or I, unless you happen to be the CEO of a great big company.
Those of you who think otherwise, take a little step back for a moment, and ask yourself this:
"Would a group of representatives from countries that want money, meeting with a group of private citizens and/or money-driven politicians, be likely to seek solutions that benefit me in my everyday life?"
FUCK no. Money, money, money. None for you, monkey. WHY would they go through all that trouble to make YOUR life better?
--
Blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
It really is too bad. Here we have a group of people who were trying to peacefully make a point about their objections to the WTO. Unfortunately, some other people couldn't keep it peaceful, and then the forces of law and order started resorting to violence even against those who weren't using it themselves. As a result, we're bound to see a lot of commentary on how people are animals, since we all riot at the slightest opportunity, or how the government is oppressive because they pull out pepper spray on peaceful protesters.
Unfortunately, this probably means that the message that the peaceful protesters wanted to get out, that the WTO has a poor track record with environmental and worker issues, is going to be pretty much lost in the noise.
As far as whether the WTO is beholden to only corporate interests, that is entirely debateable. But you have not offered an arguement, or evidence, only an empty assertion.
Finally, I did not say I would prefer to purchase things at the lowest possible price (though I might). I was simply responding to the assertion about maximizing freedom. It is a fact that lowering trade tarrifs and regulations increases the liberty of the buyer and seller.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
I can assure the geek population (what does this have to do with 'news for nerds', btw?) that, to paraphrase another individual, reports are greatly exagerrated. The mainstream media and local coverage will begin to cover in more depth some of the amazing things that happened at the protest shortly, as soon as the idiots who have nowhere else to go disperse. Right now all that can be shown is just the blow-by-blow of what's going on in the streets right now. But this protest was an amazing success, one that will be remembered for some time to come, both for the things that _did_ happen, and for the things that did not (bloodshed, truely widespread looting, massive arrests, or truly violent confrontation).
Since I would not use this as a forum for political activism or similar unrelated offtopic discussion, I won't go into further detail, but if interested, email me.
Check my Go-related blog for beginners: DGD
I agree, I watched the protest on TV all day.
A group of people were going around all in black and breaking windows and throwing trash everywhere. But other people kept on cleaning up the trash that these vandals were throwing out and telling the vandals to stop. This group, called the anarchists, were thirty people in a group of 60,000 people. I was suprised that there were so few of these people in such a large group.
A group of protesters grabbed a street intersection and the entry to where the delegates were meeting and wouldn't let the delegates through, but they were simply blocking the delegates, the only physical violence that I saw was a delegate hitting several of the people that were blocking their way.
By ten oclock these protesters had been hit with at least ten canisters of gas, sprayed with pepper spray, shot with rubber bullets and attacked with flash-bang devices for at least an hour. The protesters held their ground and refused to surrender the intersection. During the course of these police attacks a few of the protestors became angry with the police and were physically defending themselves by tossing the canisters back at the police and building a baracade of tipped over dumpsters which some lunatic protestor set on fire. (That was a stupid move, gauranteed to make the headlines.)
Once the delegates were in the building the attacks stopped until the Union march finished around 3 pm. Then the police continued to attack the intersection.
By 5:30 most of the protestors had gone home, only a bunch of angry young people were left, less than 5,000. They vowed to hold the streets but were pushed out of the downtown area by 7pm so that the delegates could go enjoy a nice catered meal at the flight center.
The protestors were pushed further and further back into residential neighborhoods where the continued police gas and pyrotechnics attacks were affecting the older people and children in the neighborhoods. At 11pm several hundred policemen are chasing a lesser number of protestors through the streets of Seattle. It will be over soon.
The one thing that I found really interesting about the protest today was the lack of press coverage today on anything other than the local channels. By 3pm CNN was doing a 5 second blurb every hour and Fox didn't even to seem to know that there was a protest in Seattle against the WTO. By this time the Govenor of Washington had called out the National Guard. But Pete Rose was interviewed live all day long...
I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories, but the lack of National Press coverage, the biased reporting against the protestors when the news was finally reported at the end of the day, and the police response toward the protestors leads me to one and only one conclusion. The system is rigged and ran by those with money.
I know that most of you are saying, what am I some sort of idiot for not realizing this years ago? My only excuse is that I saw what I wanted to believe was true. For those that don't believe this, wake up. For those who know the system because they are the system, beware, my eyes are open now and I will be watching you very carefully.
I am going to my first protest tomorrow morning at daybreak. See you there.
No, not the colonial system. Look at any one person. They are better at some things than others. I personally can't write poetry. So I'm not a poet. I play with networks. But if everyone played with networks, who'd write poetry? I don't know how well Ginsberg (sp?) would be with computer networks, but most people think he writes pretty good poetry. A real world example of this is sugar and hops. Sugarcane doesn't grow to well in the pacific northwest of the US. Hops (as in beer) do. Meanwhile, sugarcane grows pretty well in cuba. Really well. Hops, not so well. In the early 1960s, Fidel Castro tried to diversify Cuban agriculture. His plan failed. Not for lack of trying, but because other crops didn't grow very well, and they weren't producing enough other farm goods to make up for the sugar they weren't growing. Specialization doesn't mean only producing one good, it means producing the things that are most efficiently produced. Would you suggest that farmers in Canada grow bananas? Or that miners in Wales and West Virginia give up on coal because then they'll be dependant on trade? That is a very bad plan. It's not Orewellian to make your living by doing what you do well, it's smart. I am sorry if I did not make my use of the word specialization clear in the first place.
itachi
a group of hippies is able to halt international-scale discussions. This is disturbing not only due to the magnitude of the trouble they are causing, but by the very nature of protest itself.
Among protests throughout history, very few have led to any constructive change, and more often than not, the protesters and their causes are likely to suffer. By its very nature, protest is destructive, not constructive, and offers no solutions. That such a hodge-podge mix of students and "labour union" supporters - union stiffs - are able to cause such havoc should certainly be cause for concern for everyone.
FYI ... Adbusters was started by an ad-man who wanted to use his talents for "good" instead of "evil". A big part of their philosophy is using the tools of the dominant culture - advertising - to communicate progressive messages. Basically, if slick advertising is the "Lingua Franca" of our society, then slick ads are the best way to influence and impact the populus.
My favorite ad campaign is the one where they post billboards of in the style of the Marlbrough Man, where one rugged cowboy says to the other "I miss my lung, Bob."
BTW, Adbusters has had trouble buying air time, even when they have enough contributions to pay the fees. Many stations won't run their ads at any price, because they are "too anti-capitalist".
You might want to look at their site, it's really quite interesting.
- bridgette
"other people's property"? whose property? They are not destroying your property, right? Unless you the owner of Nike..
Um, the rioters in Seattle are destroying property, like stores and stuff. and not ones owned by Nike ether.
And while its true that the gap between rich and poor in this contry is high, our 'poor' people are still very well off compared to other contrys (A chines factory worker, employed by the Comunist government btw, makes abotu $300 a year)
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
And I didn't know that it was them who had been running the 'I miss my other lung, bob' billboards. Those are great :)
However, whether or not they are 'doing good' is a matter of debate. Would Seattle have been so ravaged if there ads hadn't run? I think that's a question that they really need to ask themselves. The info about the protest on there site was your typical information-free political propaganda and nothing more then rhetoric.
If you want to fight a cause, disseminate information about it. Let people make up your own minds. If people chose not to join you, then maybe you're in the wrong.
Advertising is about manipulating people, not informing them. I certainly wouldn't call what I saw on CNN an "Unadverizment" it was as much a political ad as anything else. (actually, it was a hell of a lot better then most political ads, but that's another story)
Just because an idea is progressive, it isn't necessarily good. And, once you stop disseminating real information, and start producing propaganda, then you are no better then anyone else. You're just another salesman, pushing your ideas, regardless of how correct they are.
Advertising, in the form used by corporate America, and by adbusters.org is not designed to inform us, but rather to control us. Corporate America's message is simply to buy their stuff. Adbusers has a political agenda, and is using the tools of advertising to push it.
There was another organization that used modern advertising to achieve its 'new' goals, It was called Nazism. And they were pretty successful.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
What do you think of Germany, then? It seems to be a pretty big economic player to me. How about the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Finland? That's right, our hero comes from a hard-core socialist country. He has often publicly linked his relaxed views about money to the culture of Finland and to his upbringing. in particular, his father, a journalist, is a major dyed-in-the-wool left-winger. Read the existing interviews with Linus, and this point comes up again and again.
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It is AMAZING what's going on outside right now. I work in the Pioneer Square section of Seattle, just on the south end of Downtown proper. I'm probably insane for still being here, but that's what they pay me the big bucks for, right? Oh yeah, I'm salary. :P
Anyway, I've been watching this whole thing unfold all day, and it has been absolutely insane. The National Guard has been called in, the Downtown area (starting 2 blocks north of me right now) is under curfew until morning, and the tear gas was so thick at times that you could barely see across the street!
When I came down here this morning, it wasn't too bad - there were several tens of thousands of people protesting, but it was mostly under control and peaceful. A little tear gas here and there, but not much. The condition deteriorated throughout the day until around 4:30-5:00 - it started to get dark, and it seems like all hell broke loose.
Watching the news (and the streets, for that matter), it was very surreal - the first thing I wanted to say was "this is happening WHERE?" It looked like CNN coverage of some foreign city under seige by terrorists - not kidding at all... Police in all their riot gear, herding people out of the "curfew zone", shooting tear gas and pepper spray, rubber bullets, and now the National Guard. My kid sister even got tear gassed on her way to work this afternoon!
All in all, I must say that the police have shown some pretty decent restraint through all of this. Lots of gas, etc, but not too much violence, and VERY few arrests - I think the count is at around 22 people. 22 people out of THOUSANDS really isn't bad. The VAST majority of the protesters were also very well-behaved and got their point across well. It wasn't until some of the "hey, let's go riot!" people started coming out of the woodwork before it got nasty.
Very odd day, all in all. There's helicopters flying overhead every couple of minutes, and APC's just up the street, and I'm not sure how I'm going to get home, which is on the other side of the locked down area, but very interesting nonetheless...
*grin* Never again will I say "it couldn't happen HERE... not in MY town..."
- strabo
I think it was Al gore, or some other Democrat that said Its time to spend less time worrying about Consumers, and more time worrying about workers!
Now, as far as I know, every person is a consumer. And lower prices on things are better for the consumers. CEOs don't make that much money really, unless they are stockholders as well (Like Bill Gates, he makes his money from owning part of MS, not in salary). The *Stock Holders* get the money. And who is the stock holders? why, you and me! and if you don't own stocks, you should buy some.
Don't forget better stock prices mean better mortgage rates for homes, meaning more people can afford them, etc, etc, etc.
You really need to think this through more fully
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Listen to history happening.
The WTO answers to it's member nations. The WTO is not accountable to mulit-nats, it has nothing to do with them. It is an NGO that is comprised of government representatives. There are approx. 135 member nations in the WTO right now. The reps to the WTO are picked by the govt they represent, and they work within the WTO on behalf of the govt. that they represent. Since every member nation gets to represent itself to the WTO, by proxy, every person in every member nation is represented to the WTO. If you live in a member nation and think that your govt is making poor choices wrt to WTO, talk to your govt. Furthermore, the WTO and it's predecessors have been around since 1947. It is not new. Your arguments show a serious mis-understanding of the WTO and the mechanisms of international trade. For more information about the WTO, try their website.
itachi
Always the crowd did this, the police responded. Unless, of course, the riot took place in Yugoslavia or Iran, where the regime, and therefore the police, are BAD, as we all know. Then it's the other way around, and it's all rigt to say that the police attacked the crowd and started randomly beating up people, and some people threw rocks back at the police.
"Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot."
Well, the UN Didn't enter Kosovo, it was NATO. And it pissed a lot of people off (most notably China, bombing there embassy wasn't such a good idea ether)
Anyway, I realize that Countries are going to like the idea of sovereignty quite a bit, because if sovereignty is lost, the people signing the treaties loose power. Its an important thing, for those in power. Since I'm not in power, I don't really care.
Because your rights aren't necessarily preserved. Can you vote rulers/officers of these Para-national bodies out of office? Are the actions taken by such a body (actions that affect you) open to public, open review? Is there a legal appeals process and what are your rights under that process as a citizen? And beyond the protection of your rights under such a system, on a pragmatic basis, is power adequately distributed via a system of checks and balances to prevent or ameliorate corruption or tyranny?
These are all good questions, and right now the answer seems to be no. But that's not what I'm talking about. Obviously I don't want the US government replaced by a bunch g8 members and people who meet in closed conferences lead by Bill Gates. What I said was that if I keep all the rights I had now then it would be OK. This includes the right to vote, and to know what my government is up to. Let me state again: As long as I retain the rights I currently have, I don't care who's running the show. This is more then just free speech, but also the political rights I enjoy as well.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Now, where is the proof that this is a bad thing?
After all, isn't increased trade good?
Take the Nestle Infant Formula in Ecuador as one example. Nestle gave Infant Formula to UNICEF for impoverished, uneducated Ecuadoran mothers. The package had a picture of a plump, healthy baby that led these illiterate women to believe that the Infant Formula was better than breast feeding for their babies, which is very far from the truth. Both UNICEF and the Ecuadoran government passed legislation (democratically) that banned the use of packaging that might be considered misleading. Nestle complied until the creation of the WTO, when Nestle brought charges of unfair trade barriers against Ecuador. Ecuador repealed the legislation due to threats of severe economic sanctions, undoing the protections for the most vulnerable segment of the population.
Something I just learned about listening to Democracy Now! at Pacifica News was that the Australian Beef Industry has charged the US with trade barriers due to the fact that the USDA must inspect beef. The US government has decided to accept Corporate Inspected Beef as the equivalent of USDA Prime, complete with stamp. That means you can no longer trust USDA beef as having passed certain standards. If your wondering what the problem with that is, please go find out why the USDA was created and look at many of the causes for food labeling and standards that began being passed at the turn of the century. You'll lose your appietite.
Another example is the EU and the opposition of the European public to accept hormone treated beef. The US has imposed massive trade sanctions against EU exports due to legislation (democratically passed) banning the import of hormone treated beef. While you may not see anything wrong with hormone treated beef or other products, Europe does, and Europeans have every right not to accept it on the same terms they accept non-treated beef. Yet the WTO seems to think otherwise.
You can argue that no-one has to join the WTO, but look at the pressure the US and other developed countries have put on those who do not seem eager. Not joining the WTO can limit foriegn aid, foriegn investment and trade at all.
I believe that peoples rights come before corporate rights, and that none of the things we do in this world are worth anything unless it helps the common good in one way or another (yes helping yourself can help the common good). Pushing corporate profits is not more important than helping humans better themselves. I also think that those that have more ability and resources have a moral duty to help those that don't. I live by this and I think that anyone who wants to be seen as a truly productive member of society should believe this principle true to some extent. We are all part of a system on this planet, with the environment and with each other and we are only as strong as our weakest link. We can't help everyone, but we can ensure equal oppurtunity for most. The WTO is not about that or any of the other principles that the US or most democracies were founded upon. Please get more info before passing judgement on the protestors in Seattle, they may be saving your health and your freedom.
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
WHAT THE HELL DOES THE NATIONAL GUARD NEED RIOT UNITS FOR?!?
Um, probably to stop riots... or would you rather see cities burned to the ground?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
you know, it would make sense for the WTO to inject felonious protesters so as to bring on a police action that would distract the media from actually covering the peaceful protestors and disseminating the anti-WTO agenda.
hmmm....
The protests have been good because it is free speech and civil disobediance in a most American fashion. In 2/3 of the WTO countries, the public would have been severely restricted a priori, if not having "dissidents" rounded up and jailed weeks before the meeting. The degree of coordination of the protestors in taking downtown Seattle corner by corner and holding territory was impressively effective.
For the police response, it appears that they have taken back downtown Seattle in an organized and efficient way. The Governor's State of Emergency giving them a legal basis, the police have shown an amazing amount of restraint... there have been a few minor injuries, but no clubbing/takedowns/violence. I think that this is because the police would have been outmanned at the peak of the protests; when outmanned, they would have to use a greater proportion of force to disperse the protestors. Not to mention that after 12 hours of marching, the protesters would be easier to move.
I've been watching this live on Northwest Cable News for a couple of hours... Congratulations are in order to both sides for a good show.
Oh... and leave it to Seattle protestors to loot Starbucks... I can just see the stocking-capped hoods making off with pockets full of biscotti, pilfered mochas, backpacks full of stainless steele travel mugs.... in LA they have the sense to loot consumer electronics... guess in Seattle they have to feed their community addiction.
-Rodent
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The fact that America's entire industrial base has been exported as a result of globalist policies such as NAFTA, and GATT (and now the WTO) means little to any of the parties these days, as there doesn't seem to be an advocate for the working man any more. *everyone* seems to be in the pocket of the corporates these days... which is sad. I suspect people won't start to wake up until THEIR high paying high tech jobs meet the same fate. OH? don't think it can happen to you? what makes you think your job is safe? That all those US universities that subsidize *thousands* of foreign students each year on YOUR tax dollars aren't teaching them the same things that they're teaching you? What of those students who actually go back to their countries of origin? Such as the Indians? What happens when there's enough programmers in 3rd world so that the corporates can farm out YOUR job to some guy living in a hut for 10 cents an hour? You don't think that won't happen? It happened with textiles, steel, the automotive industry, all the rest of manufacturing, and now the computer component industry is almost exclusively in Asia. So go ahead and think of this in terms of sovereignty, but I'll tell you what, it's not really about that.
If the corporations are running all the political parties now, then they actually control the national & international policy across the board, and all this is in fact a moot point. However, I don't think we should make it easy for the corporates, by just letting them walk right over western democracies like an Oil company in Africa. Perhaps the corruption of the planet is inevitable, however any delay is welcome.
Then they can simply leave. No one is forcing them to be a part of it.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
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As one who was at the protest on Tuesday, (but not in the riot), I must first say that some of the claims that news media has made are false:
1. The protest was well organized. It was not the disorganized mass that it has been described as.
2. It was peacefull, for the most part. I, personally, saw no violence at all, and I marched the whole time.
I could go on, but more important then the spectacle of what happened is the fact that all manner of people were working together. Labor unions and environmentalists were working together. Greenpeace and loggers were actually walking alongside eachother. This level of cooperation amoung such diverse groups has not been seen since the 1920's, when labor conditions were so bad in the United States that there was really no other choice. The stock market in this time period was, remarkably, very similar. Most stocks were inflated wildly above their "real" prices, and most stock-related profits were made by trading, not by the company who issued the stock giving you some percentage of their profit.
The people of the world can now show this solidarity because of the tremendous threat posed by the WTO's policies. If the WTO is allowed to pass laws as it pleases, it will invalidate our constitution, and we'll have no legal recourse against it. Here's why:
1. The MAI (Multilateral Agreement on Investment) specifies that if a law of ours causes a foreign company to loose money, we can either compensate them for this loss for an indefinite period, or we can remove the law from our books. This is happening in the state of California at the moment, on the subject of a gasoline additive.
2. With this power invoked, we will be at the mercy of anonymous, non-elected international panels who will, in secret (if requested to do so), review our laws, and tell us to change them if they pose a problem for some company. For example, if X-Oil company were allowed, in another country, to refine oil by methods that leak ungodly amounts of pollutants into the water and ground, but were not allowed to do so in their refineries in the Puget Sound, then the US government (or whoever sets their pollution standards) would be required to change the pollution laws, or to compensate them for the extra cost, forever.
3. This could nullify our constitution because nearly every article could, conceivably, cause some company, somewhere, hardship, and could thus be negated by the WTO laws.
I could drone on forever with more examples of the terrible things that could happen if the WTO is allowed to have it's way, but that'll bore everybody. Instead, I'd like everybody to think about what happened near the end of the 1920's, ending the ramant inflation of stock values. The stock market crashed. Lots of people starved. Everybody lost their money. A few people became very wealthy (i.e. the ones who won out on the savings-and-loans scandal.), but not very many. In the end, we ended up instituting a series of worker protection laws, which have been chipped away at since then.
We shouldn't have to go through another depression before we fix the problem, this time. Some simple preventive measures, some of which could be having the WTO require a reasonable minimum wage, require strict environmental controls, and set some maximum working hours for workers. Others would be neccessary, of course, but that's a start.
The real problem with the WTO is that it gives away too much sovereignty. Here in California we're banning MTBE from gasoline because its somewhat water soluble, and may be a carcinogen. I've heard that there are oil companies in other countries trying to get the ban overturned in court because it violates the WTO guidelines.
If such a case were decided in favor of the oil co.'s, it would basicly mean that the US government has given away California's right to self govern, and the people would have to keep drinking MTBE contaminated water no matter what they thought of the issue.
That's the sort of thing they're protesting against. More power to them! I wish I could go to Seattle and join them.
The events in seattle are not a result of the WTO conference (of which they have been heavily recruiting volunteers for in area high schools. I'm glad I didn't volunteer.), but the hype generated by the massive preparation the city has been undertaking for the past several months in order to get ready for the protests. It attracted all of those people that thought setting bon fires and beating up delegates (Which did happen, to those hapless enough to try to use the front entrance)would be great fun. Shortly after the protests began, the protestors quickly factionalized. Conflict began between the groups, as those who had coordinated their protests with the city attempted to stop those that were firebombing dumpsters and rolling boulders down hills at lines of police for fear of being tear gassed. Things began to degrade at around 10:00 AM Pacific, when the police donned their riot gear and began loading their hot-pink shotguns. Wacky and entertaining protestor vs. police hijinks ensued. I saw a man in a sea turtle costume (bearing the placard: Save the sea turtles. Go fig, at a trade conference?) beating the hell out of another man who was unlucky enough to rouse the beast's ire. Many of the protestors had unusual costumes on, probably to attract the attention of television cameras. The overall effect was that of a demented mardi gras, but with more tear gas. On a side note, I found out that CS gas smells like horribly rotten mustard and doesn't "hit" you until several seconds after exposure. The tear gas attacks were mostly ineffectual, as many protestors (Rioters at this point) had gas masks, and were lobbing the cannisters back into the police lines. After several hours of this, the crowd shifted into 'Arson mode' and began stripping Seattle's beautiful downtown pedestrian areas of anything flammable and setting massive blazes. As the curfew approached, only the hard-core bands of rioters remained behind to taunt the advancing riot squads. Oh, and somebody set off some sort of explosion during this phase of the .. party.. and that seemed to /really/ piss the police off. As for the conference itself, it was delayed by several hours and the attendees were generally annoyed. Personally, I would've sent in the fire department to quell the riot. I would have volunteered on the spot if one of the availible positions was to work the hoses. At any rate, this wasn't about the WTO. It was a gigantic , really destructive, block party. The pleasure we take in being part of the group, acting with violent purpose towards a goal with no eye towards its morality will ensure that we are supplied with a never-ending fountain of such spectacles well into the new millenium. The police felt it, and they did take part, with their lobbing of tear gas and engagement with the protestors. Even I felt it, far removed as I was from the chaos. I thrilled at the prospect of taking part-- a primal need to put myself in the center of it, setting fires and engaging in wholesale mindless destruction with my.. as the mob, the distinction of self vanishes. Something in ourselves makes us manic for the chaotic energy we find when we swarm. Philotes, herd instinct, whatever you please. It exists. This is what Y2K will be like, but everywhere.
These people (can we call them that?) are freaks. There are other, more appropriate forums and methods of expressing concerns than blocking up a city and starting riots.
:)
From a discussion in #slashdot on slashnet, I have the feeling that I'm in the minority on the following opinion, but I'd like to air it anyway.
The protestors in Seattle have a right to make themselves heard. They do NOT have a right to commit acts of violence against ordinary people doing ordinary business, or against the police, who are charged with maintaining law and order. In small groups, what is going on in Seattle is called "disorderly conduct." In larger groups, it's a riot. They may claim that it's nonviolent, but the results speak for themselves.
I'm not against freedom of expression (lest the flamers take me to task), and I have a healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to government actions, but in this case the police were completely within their rights. Protestors in Seattle claimed that they were not given warning before the police opened up with teargas and rubber bullets. Well and good. It may even be true. But this arguement is symptomatic of the disgustingly prevalent attitude in our society of personal irresponsibility. "It isn't our fault!" they chant.
Actually, it is. By blocking streets, smashing windows, and hassling trade delegates, these rioters knowingly put themselves in a position where the police would have to act. Just because they were not forewarned by the police does not remove their personal responsibility. Furthermore, the results of their actions (e.g., the police response) are obvious to anyone who considers the consequences of their actions. If these individuals failed to think through their actions to the end result, that's just too bad.
I have no sympathy for these (cough) people. They brought it on themselves, and they deserve everything they got. They're lucky they weren't attacked by the motorists trying to commute to work or the pedestrians going about normal business. Given the recent epidemic of murderous motorists, one would think that people would be hesitant to induce "road rage" in commuters. Given recent accounts of police brutality (in NYC, for example), it would make some sense to not be in the area where a protest might happen--especially as a participant.
Arrest the rioters. Pelt them with rubber bullets. Gas them. If they still don't get the message that their conduct is inexcusable, then maybe they need to be weeded from the gene pool because they're too stupid to be allowed to reproduce
Their are peaceful ways of resolving differences of opinion, even with the WTO. The most commonly accepted form is greasing a politician. Call it campaign finance. Call it graft. Call it whatever you like. You can buy a politician. And it is perfectly peaceful. Lining up in the street causing traffic jams and civil unrest is not peaceful, no matter what platitudes the protestors spew.
Who am I?
Why am here?
Where is the chocolate?
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Anyone who has taken even an introductory class in Economics knows that free trade is the best way to economic growth and economic growth benefits everyone. Any kind of tariffs artificially raise prices. The extra money you now have to spend on a the tariffed good is money that can not now be spent on something else (called deadweight loss). This means less economic activity and fewer jobs for the people who are protesting. Ironic, isn't it? And this whole notion of jobs going to third world countries is bunkum. A simple accounting identity makes it near impossible; Net Exports == Net Foreign Investment. There's a fabulous piece written by an economist that does a good job of explaining in more detail why it's impossible (it was in response to Ross perot and his NAFTA opposition). I can't seem to find the url but if I find it i'll post it in this thread.
I agree that it is rare to find a situation where that which is economically beneficial is also the right thing to do, and the WTO is NOT the exception that proves the rule. Setting aside the protests over human rights and labor standards, setting aside the environmental concerns, all of which is done far too easily in this day and age of "I've got mine, who cares?" mentality, the argument that the trade is free is, at best, specious. Free trade can only exist where all parties are on an equal footing. We, here in the US, tend to assume that every person on this planet has the same access to information about their government that we do, and therefor are able to, at some level, have an effect on their own future by being involved in their own governance. It just isn't so. Until information is allowed to pass freely within countries and without, there can be no equal footing. As to the developing countries, most of the developing is being done by multi-national corporations that have their main headquarters, and hence their main profits, outside of the countries that are being exploited. It is these same companies who are the chief instigator of protests against environmental concerns, and who shape, through economic blackmail and coercion, the attitude of the countries they are involved in. It is equally intellectually dishonest and morally reprehensible to ignore that the transfer of costs alluded to are actually done to rich corporations that then have to bear some financial responsibility for their actions. I remember a time in Arizona where, in the early 70's, the argument was about air polution. The suggestion was made that air scrubbers be put on the stacks of the smelting units at the mines, and the howls of outrage by the mining corporations were great. They went on to blame everything from automobiles to forest fires for the problems hitting Phoenix at the time, yet when analysis of the air itself showed fairly conclusively that the byproducts of the stacks were the problem they then switched to how unfair it was to force them to pay to not pollute. I think that what we see now is a better orchestrated and covert attempt to subvert environmental and human rights issues by hiding behind foreign governments being done by those same types of companies.
Been surfing so long I've got reef rash.
The WTO has no real power. If tit has a problem with one of our laws, and cites us, all we have to do is ether withdraw from the WTO, or ignore it. (Certainly, the United States is not a nation known for following treaties). Without the US, the WTO looses much of its luster, and persuasive power. It's unlikely that it would do anything to upset us.
Other countries may have trouble staying in the WTO if they just ignore it, But ultimately, the WTO has NO power whatsoever. They have no military, and while they're capable of passing laws, no one is under any obligation to follow them.
Members of the United States are bound by the Its constitution (No one ever thinks of the US as having members, but the states were originally independent countries... sort of). Secession is illegal, and the US has a military force to back it up. The WTO has no such capability
The fact that the stock market was good both in the 1920s and today dosn't really mean anything, and has nothing to do with the WTO.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
First of all, let me clearly state that I am in favor of the existence of the WTO, and of free trade.
Now, some of those protesting were probably members of special interest groups or extreme leftists, but the protesters did have a couple of points which should be discussed, namely issues of environmental protection and working conditions. Since you won't find many people who are in favor of declaring war on any country that permits toxic waste dumping or child labor, economic sanctions, i.e., trade barriers, may be our best way of preventing such practices.
If you read MSNBC's articles on the subject, they mentioned a protestor who was arrested by the police. The protestor, upon being interviewed, admitted to the fact that he did not have a particular agenda against the WTO. Ah, the committed ideals of the civilly disobdeient masses are amazing aren't they?
A friend of mine particpated in a Martin Luther King rally that ocurred in Denver a few years back. The KKK, being the fun loving happy go lucky kind of white supremacists they are, thought it would be a lovely idea to stage a rally of their own at the state capital. She was with a large group of people who were very into civil rights, and wanted to show their respect for MLK with a peaceful march through downtown. At the capital, they discovered that another group, completely unrelated to theirs had shown up with only one intention, beating the ever loving crap out of the KKK. Now, if there is any organization that deserves such a reception it is the KKK, but the end result was a riot that far overshadowed anything good that happened that day.
So, for those in the audience who just enjoy stirring things up and being violent, would you take up knitting or something rather than screwing up the political message of the few people in this country who are willing to go out of their way to make a political point.
*As sterno steps down from his soap box the crowd goes wild*
---
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Free trade guarantees nothing. We've had free trade here in America in the software industry
for years - need I tell you where that thought is going?
Well, everyone in the US can buy a copy of Windows98 at the same price, no matter where in the US they are. Ditto the latest RedHat box, or Oracle 8i, or Photoshop, etc. Now, in areas where there is serious competition, like games, the prices are much lower. Recently, it was decided by the regulatory body responsible for such things (this is where the WTO fits) that there was a monopoly in the market, and they are working on dealing with this issue.
Looking at international trade, which is what the WTO deals with, we find that there are some serious differences from intranational trade. If you go to Cuba, you find that sugar is much cheaper than in the US, relative to other goods. Why can't US consumers pay the same price for sugar relative to a standard market basket of goods that Cuban consumers pay for sugar relative to the same market basket? Well, it's the lack of free trade. Quotas, specifically - the US limits the ammount of sugar imported into the US (originally as a concession to allow Cuban sugar to be sold for a much higher price within the US, thereby helping Cuban farmers, but after Castro rose to power, the quotas have been kept in place because of corn farmers lobbying to keep corn syrup in demand, and also as a way of boosting the sugar industry in whatever sugar growing nations the US is most friendly with at the moment). Bummer, dude. A better example is the Big Mac. Standard thing, found all over. Sugar varies depending on how it is produced, but a big mac contains the same stuff everywhere. If there is totally free trade between two countries, then consumers sacrifice just as much buying power of their respective currencies to get a big mac in either country. So free trade is about money that you, personally, will save. Why should you pay twice as much for a big mac? Assuming totally free trade everywhere, prices on everything are lower. And that is how free trade is about money for the consumer.
itachi
Don't get me wrong: I do not like violence, and I don't think rioting is a good solution to problems in general. However, you have to realize that there is a fine line between civil disobedience and rioting. That line is crossed when the police start making arrests and either they or the protestors become violent. At that point, all Hell breaks loose (see my above posting) and a lot of people may get hurt before things settle down. Most will just be caught in the crossfire and won't have done anything violent themselves. There will be plenty of screaming and running around, and the TV cameras will focus on the violent police and protestors, giving the impression of a totally violent conflict when in fact there is relatively little violence.
What I am saying is that acts of civil disobedience often turn into full-blown riots or apparent riots, and realistic protestors expect this result. Some use it as a publicity tool, either by fighting the cops or by passively taking beatings. It's often effective, and I think that, in this case, the impression of importance will really hit home when people see the videos of gas bombs flying, trash cans burning, huge masses running scared in the dark, and--inevitably--armored riot police beating unarmed protestors with sticks.
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Hypocrites.
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There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
No, I think that censored by the police is jumping a bit far. Most likely it's either too dark in the location they're looking at to see anything, or the camera is off and only operates at certain times. Also remember the time difference. PST is 3 hours behind EST and 9 hours behind grenich mean I think.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
That's freedom to *peaceably* assemble.
Without blocking anybody else.
Without attacking people.
Without vandalizing.
Basically, without breaking the law.
Look at the KKK for instance; whenever they assemble, they're careful to a) be not particularly numerous (which is easy, given their minimal appeal among the clued), and b) limit their confrontation to shouting. It's part of their current image, where they're clued enough to let the anti-Klan protesters be the ones to first be unruly and discredit themselves.
Being in a public park, holding up signs, and not interfering with anybody is fine, 'tho you may have to get a permit or reservation. Invite some reporters; hand out press releases; write letters to the editor; call your Congressmen.
Deal.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
I'm not so sure how being able to make that decision is helping the people. Thats almost like saying you aren't free unless you can sell yourself into slavery, there isn't much benefit there. Hormote treated beef is of dubious value, and unless the price is lower than untreated beef, it can only be of neutral value, or bad if it causes health problems that are yet unknown. I don't live in Europe obviously but I was under the impression that the people didn't want the meat anyway. The WTO still went around the government's wishes and imposed it's own antidemocratic ruling.
So yeah, I was aware of your point, but it wasn't what I was getting at. I'm not sure it's even possible to have a purely social or capital based large country, just as it isn't possible to have a purely democratic country -- you need buffers in the form of representatives and governing organizations and such. Rather than having people on the left and right bickering over being on the left and right, what we need to do is acknowledge that the liberals and conservatives are both wrong, but that they also both have a grain of truth that needs to be teased out of them. That grain, like the sand in the oyster's jaw, can maybe be used to create the perl[1] of a new economic model, one that is fair to all while enrichening as many as possible and by as much as possible. Only then can we make true progress. Not by kowtowing before international trading organizations like this, that have every intention of trampling over the rights of man and the earth. And also not by binding people and prohibiting them from earning a fair compensation for their workmanship. A third way[2], a middle way. It's out there somewhere; perhaps someone in our generation will find it. I hope so.
[1] heh sorry couldn't resist that one
[2] Isn't this what Clinton & Blair have been preaching these days? I don't want to follow their model either -- they just beat me to the term. Keep trying...
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
At least some years ago, rubber bullets tended to be rubber-COATED bullets. There were incidents during the Intifada of Palestinian (sp?) protestors dying after being shot with them...
...but over there, the "civillians" were frequently armed.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Everyone has their own opinion, yeah, but I'm surprised at some of the responses in the Slashdot community. Sure, when I saw the protestors preparing on the news here in London I sorta mumbled to myself, "Yeah... THEY'RE going to save the world, sure..." - but the really interesting thing is that it's not just bong addled hippies out there. It's retired firemen and nuns and Union workers. That is how important this issue is - because anyone who has lived in WA state, where I grew up, and hasn't gotten filty rich on MS stock options knows that free trade has been disastrous to our economy and environment. The Salmon runs are nearly dead, hundreds of thousands of jobs were lost in that industry. Loggers were hired by big corporations to strip clear trees from the state that were sold to Japan, then fired once they were all gone (and don't get me started on how they bought public land - PARK LANDS - to get even more timber). Then there's Microsoft. The brief history of this state is our future history praying at the altar of free trade. These were issues that affected blue collar working class people and their ability to support their families - not smelly assed crusties playing bongos worrying about the new batch of Humboldt bud.
The WTO means that hormone injected beef that has been proven to cause cancer cannot be restricted from being sold in a country whose people don't want it. This means that controls on GM food and labelling cannot occur despite a populace agreeing on such an issue. This means Monsanto can sell their self destructing seed no matter what the farmers think. It means a company who makes an enormous profit from one country doesn't have to put one cent back into taxes to that country or jobs or local interest. Basically - it's Microsoft vs. Linux, except it's not the OS you run, it's the food you eat, the air you breathe, the animals in the sea, your local populace's employment rates, the ability of a large corporation to strip mine all the resources in an economy and not put anything back into that economy - rather keep it for themselves - which is the real damage of free trade.
Maybe I'm emotional, because I'm here in London and it's only through webcams and message boards and TV coverage that I can get a sense of what's going on back home, and worry about friends and family, some of whom I know are protesting, while others are worried about getting to work on time, and one or two police officers. Undoubtedly there is a small minority causing trouble. But what I see is a diverse crowd of unarmed people with interests devoted to having a say in the shape of the world versus the latest kevlar protection and non lethal weaponry - against the sheltered protection of large corporations. It's Terry Gilliam's Brazil. For the first time in my life I have empathy with the older generation who protested in the 60s and understand why they were so reactionary. If you're going to consider this issue as non sequitir and having no importance to nerds, then please, like a true nerd educate yourself first and consider what's at stake.
** http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/ ** Human rights in North Korea. 1 million estimated dead from starvation.
Well, itachi is japanese for weasel, but no, I'm not. I am, however, an international trade nut. It's fascinating. Half politics, half economics. And believe me, there is nothing I want more than the elimination of trade barriers. Trade barriers hurt nobody more than the nation that erects them. As for the cow herder dictating policy, go to the wto webpage and read up on how policy is instituted.
itachi
Okay first things I was in downtown Seattle were all of the demonstrations occurred. The news media (even local) is focusing on some rather limited acts of vandalism the have happened over the course of the day. A group of "anarchists", which were in reality about 15 nineteen year old kids dressed in black broke some windows and spray painted all kinds of things. I think it is important to understand that the action of these 15 or so kids is what you are hearing about in the news, and doesn't represent the actions of many thousands of protesters you demonstrated peacefully. As far as the police, they were very patient for the most part and did use tear gas and rubber bullets. For whatever reason they are denying the use of the rubber bullets but they were used at a couple of occasions during the day. While I wasn't there to protest the WTO directly I can't say that I agree with the closed door nature of there meetings, or many of their decisions (gene patents anyone?). PS In reply to an earlier post the CSE department at UW is quite good, but it is small and VERY difficult to be accepted to.
I only post twice a year, who needs a sig?
OK
here's my two bits
free trade is good for developing countries
it is, however, probably a bad thing for many north american labour unions
if unlimited growth in the production of wealth is unrealistic (and I believe it probably is)
then the only way for the quality of life for the average third worlder to improve is for us to share the wealth
ultimately, we (western citizens) may be poorer, but the system will be more fair
to hell with national sovereignty, citizenship is only an accident
The chinese (most of them) don't want democracy
they want color tv sets
If the labour groups really want to help the average third world worker, they would be pro WTO, then help them unionize at home
thought must come before action
these knee jerk responses and rhetoric spouting assholes are driving me up the wall
I didn't say world trade wasn't an important issue, but certanly, you wouldn't say that it is over one thousand times as important as things like the CDA? would you?
The reason this has been so effective is beacuse thousands upon thousands of people who have been unable to think for them selves marched down to seattle, and tried (sucsesfully) to stop the WTO from meeting.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Lowering trade barriers does quite the opposite. It increases my individual right (NB ALL rights are individual rights) to buy products without state interference and taxation. This benefits the buyer and seller.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
Umm, unless you're suggesting that police equipment include different sets of armor in a variety of HappyFunFun(TM) colors, black is your *best* choice.
Think: camouflage for darkness, such as assaulting a building that's currently without power because they [the police] have already disconnected it. In this situation, a perp will just treat your nice little smiley face on your shining white armor as... a nice highly visible target.
I doubt they've the budget for "practical" AND "kindler, gentler" gear *color schemes*.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
But if the people of Washington, Oregon, or California use their referendum powers to pass a law that has some effect on international trade, and the appropriate WTO tribunal decides that it violates the USA's treaty obligations under the WTO, then the law will be struck down.
send all spam to theotherwhitemeat@ropine.com
I'm not writing this to bash the US - just to record my observations - I don't understand why this happens maybe it's because public protest happens so seldomly that when it does there's a lot of other anger/outrage that finds its way out. Then again maybe it's just because the cops and demonstators aren't allowed to carry guns at home and this means there's not the same fear on both sides that can escalate into madness.
On the other hand I've seen cops in the US over-react in ways that were both childish and dangerous - many of them definitely come to a demonstration with an attitude that is more harmfull than helpfull - again it's not the majority, they are professional and non-confontational - but there always seem to be a few that seem to be itching for trouble (which to me always seems like a really bad idea if you want to survive as a cop).
I'm actually in favor of MORE public protest - if the polititians piss you off - don't wait for the next election - peacefully take to the street - you're up against a world where those with the bucks get heard - there aren't a lot of other venues for getting your point across. Things like the M$ refund day protests are wonderfull examples of what we should be doing every day
The price *is* lower, of course. Otherwise why would anyone bother ? The whole point is to make cattle bigger and meatier quicker, so you can sell more cow more quickly.
There is some evidence - which is pretty weak - that the hormones used may be slightly carcinogenic.
EU trade policy is all about protecting European farmers, and has nothing to do with European consumers. As the previosu poster said, the US negotiators offered to label the meat as treated. The point is not to protect consumers, but to prevent cheaper imports from competing with subsidised farmers.
The WTO's powers (like the EUs for that matter) rest entirely on sovereignty granted it by national governments. If they don't like abiding by the rulings of its courts (and the EU is showing every sign of trying to weasel out) they shouldn't have signed the treaties.
Ruber bullets are lethal, if the cops had really been using them, there would be thousands of dead people.
The police were using rubber slugs fired out of paintball guns.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Ever hear about "Letters to the Editor"?
Hell, the Times even puts 'em online, accessible after just a couple of clicks. A well-written letter that can make a national, mostly well-educated audience have a thoughtful, possibly *good* impression is more productive than being a hooligan and stealing TVs on national television.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Actually, there are a number of "someones" in the last several generations who have preached a "third way." IIRC, the very term "third way" came from the Distributist movement in England (Chesterton and Belloc) before Blair and Clinton co-opted it to mean economic globalization that's not too commie and not too laissez-faire. :^(
The trouble is, it's tough getting any discussion that involves any nuance, historical perspective, or more than two sides through the media. (Which explains why sports events work so well on TV but serious discussions of real issues don't.)
So, for anyone who really wants to look at a "third way," you could start by trying a google search for Distributism, or at the Chesterton Society page and folling the links. Distributism is an economoic system promoted by G. K. Chesterton and Hillaire Belloc in England at the beginning of the century, which favors widespread private ownership of property and capital, vs. the concentration of property in private (capitalist) or state (socialist) systems. The Outline of Sanity is probably the best introduction to Chestertonian Distributism, although it seems to be only available in dead trees edition, so you'll have to check a paper library or bookstore.
Besides the English Distributists, there's a whole wing of American "agrarian" writers who advocate pretty much the same thing. My favorite is Wendell Berry. Berry is a champion of local enterprise and ecological sensitivity, and is a great antidote to WTO globalism.
For a great big collection of alternatives to McWorld, try The Case Against the Global Economy : And for a Turn Toward the Local . It includes pieces by Jerry Mander, Jeremy Rifkin, Wendell Berry, Ralph Nader, Helena Norberg-Hodge, and many others, including much discussion of NAFTA, GATT, and the WTO.
Summary: It's not that nobody has thought of a "third way." The problem is not lack of imagination for envisioning alternatives to the global rat-race. If you truly want an alternative, start making it happen!
Feedback of this sort is an essential part of our socio-political system, because there is no other mechanism available by which the actions of political and economic institutions can be controlled in a democratic way.
So-called representative democracy is nothing of the sort, because there is no opportunity to influence individual issues through the election sledgehammer, and in any event only candidates that follow the approved line get the funding that's needed to get anywhere in politics these days. In any case, one day of democracy every five years is a joke.
In the absence of any official feedback mechanism, people have to protest to get their points across, and in this media-led world, a peaceful protest just doesn't get on the news. At the very least it's got to create a disturbance or nuisance of some variety to be reported.
Well, so be it. If the politicians in their comfy rose-tinted world don't provide any better way for the populace to express itself and to get things changed by due process, then people will take to the streets. It's that simple.
I bet that they never get the message though. That would require a clue. Nah, far easier just to send out the riot police to control it.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Say what you will about the government, but at least in theory it exists to serve the common good. Corporations don't even pay lip service to that ideal -- they just want to maximize their bottom line for themselves and for their shareholders. Nowhere does it say that they have to do the rest of the world a shred of good, and if they absolutely don't have to, they won't. Take a look at the campaign to revoke Phillip Morris' corporate charter, and while you're at it, poke around the rest of the Adbusters site.
I'm also sympathetic with the laissez faire Libertarians who point out that government can't step in and tell the corporations what to do or who to serve. That is rightly their own business to manage. But at the same time, a government that allows one group to exploit the rest of the population is bankrupt and needs an overhaul. Revolution lies down that path.
What is a good middle ground? I don't know -- no one has come up with it yet. Socialism atrophied and went nowhere; capitalism has become a festering tumor that is strangling the people and the planet. There has to be some happy medium. Any suggestions? Maybe some of these protesters (who came from all the world, fon't forget -- it isn't just Seattle's ex-hippie population) could come up with something. We're overdue for a nice purging riot -- maybe some good will come of it. I sure hope so -- the current system, booming economy here in the US notwithstanding, is headed down the wrong path fast...
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Amnesty International condemns the lack of serious discussion about relevant human rights issues at WTO talks.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
The following is a first-hand account from a Stanford student of the lack of police brutality:
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:24:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Louise A."
Subject: Re: EMERGENCY RESPONSE DEMO TO POLICE VIOLENCE IN SEATTLE (fwd)
Greetings from Seattle,
I was at the demo today -- will send out a full report soon -- but for
now, i just want to say that reports of police brutality are not
exaggerated. Many are in fact grossly underestimated. I didn't get
anything worse than tear gas, but police have been
beating with riot sticks
peaceful protestors who sat or lay on the ground. They have taken
protestors who were wearing face masks, covered the inside of the mask
with pepper spray and forced it back onto the person's face. They dragged
an elderly woman across the ground by her hair and an arm. They've shot
rubber bullets at ranges of a few feet, and one officer pulled a real gun
on protestors before other officers restrained him. In addition,
police have _not_ been arresting protestors to any extent -- I heard 18
arrests the whole day -- they have simply been attacking us. Now the
mayor has declared a state of civil emergency, set a 7 pm curfew dowtown,
and called out the National Guard. So if you can make it to the Palo Alto
demo tomorrow, do. (info below if you missed it)
NO WTO!
In solidarity,
Louise A.
From what I have seen (I am in downtown Seattle right now), there has been VERY minimal police violence, almost no injuries to people, and the vast majority of the protest WAS nonviolent.
There were a lot of people that started coming out, particularly toward the end of the afternoon/evening, who saw this as an excuse to riot and destroy property. There were also a large number of peaceful protesters trying to talk them down.
For the most part, the police simply used tear gas (not pleasant, but nonviolent), pepper spray, and some rubber bullets. Mostly gas and pepper spray. And they used it fairly sparingly until it became evident that something had to be done to get things under control, and they imposed the curfew. Then they got more agressive with the tear gas to get people OUT of the downtown area.
There was a lot of property destruction done by a small (in comparison) group of people, and the police, for the most part, excersized a good deal of restraint in dealing with it.
Also, for the most part, the protesters (peaceful) that I have talked to feel that today was a GREAT success, that their message was heard, and that their objectives were accomplished. I don't think that will get lost in the noise at all.
All in all, I must applaud both the peaceful protesters of today -and- the police. They both did their jobs, did them well, and nobody really got hurt (that I'm aware of). It could have been A LOT worse.
- strabo
You've got that backwards. Read 'bout Soviet-system treatment of dissidents (of *any* kind, including reformist Communists).
Putting 'em in mental hospitals was common treatment for the ones they didn't shoot, put in regular prisons, or relegate to labor camps.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
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The trouble with your argument is that the WTO is about as divorced from the concept of free trade as one could possibly be.
Its main concern is to disallow free trade by forcing its own view on how trade should be conducted in the world. That's not free. Free means unregulated not just by politicians but also by cartels and trade pressure groups, and that's total anathema to the WTO. Its primary goal is the exact opposite.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
what a wonderful riot-police y2k preparedness test.
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A few years ago there was a riot (sports related, non political) here in Vancouver, BC, just north of Seattle. Someone was hit in the head with a rubber bullet, and suffered severe brain damage.
They're certianly better than normal bullets, but they're still weapons, and it's not ok to use them on civilians.
Cheers,
Rick Kirkland
Um, first of all, the environment has been Improving for many years, and secondly even in the worst times what would were doing could hardly be called 'destroying'
You know theres a limitless supply of oil, don't you? its called ethinol (comes from corn).
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
(From the Seattle Times) Environmentalists joined hands with steelworkers, nuns, French cheese-makers, vegans and sea-turtle impersonators. Teenagers in baggy-legged pants and graying hippies walked side-by-side. Social workers and lawyers shared picket lines with body-pierced punks and tattooed grungers. /here/ against the WTO. Why do we keep bitching and moaning about the loss of privacy, stupid patent laws, crypto restrictions, all that crap. I'm ready to protest for privacy rights!
I love America. Sometimes I get disillusioned, but something like this always comes along. If you don't like the state of the country, change it. I'm in Columbus, Ohio, and there are protests
Communication is only possible between equals
Obviously, people mean different things when they use this phrase. In general, however, it means a few simple things. There are rights to organize and unionize. That goes from basic things from not being arrested for going on strike (which happens in many countries) to more advanced rights like not getting fired on mere suspicion of union sympathies. There are the protections against child labor and forced labor. There are workplace health and safety laws.
There's no question that, even with these equal rights guaranteed, people in third world countries would still often earn wages that would be considered intolerably low in the first world. Factories would still relocate for cheaper labor.
It seems to me that to call the drive for such basic rights as these (which are lacking in much of the world) "protectionist" is missing the point entirely. If these rights were universally enforced, it could only improve the lives of millions. Yes, there are people who are happy to be making $.50 a day; no, there is no one who is happy to have to sell their child, glad to get cancer or mutilations from their job, or overjoyed to be thrown in jail for peacefully supporting a union.
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Dude, russia was aganst us, they were supporters of Slobo. This didn't stop clinton from saying that they were on our side when the whole thing started, though...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The only first hand account I see is that she says "I didn't get anything worse than tear gas".
She does not claim to have seen any of the other things she talks about. I'm sure the rumor mill is spinning at top frenzy out on the streets.
If you werén't choosing to be so ignorant, we wouldn't need, for example, a walk through the chamber of horrors of Marxism in this century. How about just the deaths? Pol Pot three million killed, for offenses as trivial as wearing glasses ("being an intellectual"), Stalin and his 60 million murdered, and so many of them murdered through the torture of labor camps. China and a few dozen millions killed in the name of the People. It goes on and on. Isn't Marxism wonderful.
Oh, and a clue about the economic policies of Marxism - um... they really don't work very well. Did you ever notice those perpetual bread lines in the USSR?
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
As others have pointed out, what the WTO does has an effect on the software industry, etc. I think that both you and they are missing the larger point, though.
Read the little slogan one more time: "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters. "
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
No, you don't have to have your house inspected by OSHA regularly, so don't give me any of that baloney, either.
Finally, you do not understand the nature of the WTO at all. It doesn't run roughshod over sovereignty. NO STATE IS REQUIRED TO BELONG! And once a state joins, they can leave anytime. I thought this was obvious and pivotal, but maybe not to you. Additionally, your assertion that the WTO exists to jack up tariffs is hilarious. Please read about what they agree to after this session. Please read just a little bit of coverage about the decisions made. They are finding ways to open up trade, NOT to stifle it.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
I may be speaking out of line, but not everyone in that crowd is protesting for protectionist causes, you know.
Greenpeace is protesting, as are a slew of human rights organizations, all in force. And I can pretty much guarantee that those folks aren't protesting in favor of the American worker...
There are a number of people born and raised in this country, who are concerned about the rich-poor gap and its implications. And if you truly believe the WTO, with its current attitudes toward environment and foreign labor laws, are helping to raise the bar for other countries, you may want to think again. The WTO cares if Coke and Phillip Morris can expand in Asia and beyond, not if the piles of discarded soft drink cans and cigarette butts block the way of the thousands of people trying to make it to the state hospital for their weekly chemotherapy treatments...but I digress.
Don't get me wrong. I do sympathize for your cynicism. Its hard to live in this country and realize that our standard of living comes at the cost of other people, somewhere else on this planet. But I hope you realize that at least some of those protesters are out there because they are truly concerned about corporations' cavalier attitudes regarding people around the world, not just in our corner of it...
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?