The whole thread makes me ill. Many projects are designed up front -- the basic feature set, the UI, the object interfaces. It's a shame they did not put more emphasis on this reality.
[Linus]
> Quite frankly, Sun is doomed. And it has
> nothing to do with their engineering practices
> or their coding style.
It may have everthing to do with evolution, but only because the baby is growing up, and the engineers have little or nothing new to toss out of the womb.
Sun made middleware happen; now MS is cloning it and taking their one big chance. Less evolution and more population.
Sun and SGI could have made small fairly inexpensive game cubes years ago -- cubes that could have doubled as engineering workstations or even clustered. They chose not to, going for the server market. Neither has seriously approached the asian manufacturing giants. Poor thought processes up front!
IMHO, of all the Unix giants, Irix and SGI had the best chance to make it big -- Irix, for all it's flaws, did the best job ever of hiding Unix, and they did it many years ago. Too bad they dropped the ball and failed to make a consumer device with the help of asia.
MS rises, and continues to rise. It may be evolution in the end, but it's the overwhelming size of their population, not the superiority of product.
Add in the failure of the USA to enforce it's laws, add in the poor strategies of the big iron Unix corps, and there you have it. Little evolution, since their was never a competitive population.
the whole middleware model -- whether java or.NYET -- is about having a underlying object hierarchy in a known, unmodified state.
once you have that, you can do things like digital rights management...and NSA backdoors, maybe even MS backdoors, for sale to the highest bidder.
So, MS sells Goldman Sachs a backdoor into Smith Barney...or maybe the NSA gets a backdoor into various research computers at chinese universities. Or daddy gets his porno interests examined by the FBI.
Seems entirely possible, and if it's possible, it will be done. There is not a single entity that should not be afraid of "MS World".
I used one of the last papertape machines in the mid-seventies; we had rolls of free software all over the place, fortran code people wanted everyone to share. Having one's name in the comments made you feel like a real bigshot.
S-100 and MITS Altair had the first busses that really caught on, and Apple's, of course. I worked on a number of S-100s in the late seventies; upgrading cards that were mostly interchangable from a variety of vendors...compupro, CCS, Cromemco, etc.
If anything, it was Gary Kildall and Digital Research -- with their extremely hackable BIOS -- that made all the difference.
The man has a lot of nerve claiming he had anything to do with the roots of computing, other than teaching people it's okay to lie, cheat and steal.
Computing was above that until Microsoft came on the scene.
Why on earth anyone would release such a thing, with the name "Linux" on it, without disclosing all the technical and programming info, as well as the in-house development stuff is beyond me.
The SDK download wants you to agree to a fairly restrictive license, the tar files have cores in them, the docs are almost useless, and there is no way to backup or restore the unit from linux.
Someone at empowered technologies is a very confused person. Without more hacking info, that is easy to get, this thing is doomed.
As a dystopian, I'm actually quite happy the DOJ has graced Gate's bum with their lips.
You have to admit that this settlement is a big shot in the arm for all the people worldwide who consider the USA to be a feeble, corrupt, greed-based police state that mouths the words "Liberty, Freedom, Justice" as though they still had some meaning somewhere in the world.
Next time the USA critisizes some other countries political or humanitarian policies, all they have to say is "Bill Gates and George Bush! Don't tell us about corruption and justice!"
I've been trying to say the lines I learned as a kid...things like:
"The land of the free, and the home of the brave"
or...
"...with liberty and justice for all"
...and I just can't keep a straight face while I say those lines. I just start laughing halfway through.
I mean, I'm both a cynic and a dystopian, so I knew historical documents like The Bill of Rights and The Consitution were fairly distant from modern society well before I was born, but I never expected the Bush administration to just set MS free. I mean, lots of republicans beleive in the free market way more than they beleive in "enterprise".
Nevertheless, corporate America must be a little concerned about this. It's rather close to admitting the emperor has no clothes--I kind of figured the rich and powerful would at least make a show of sacrificing MS on the alter of justice to some extent...and later let them off via payoffs and deals in the smoke-filled rooms...but it didn't happen that way. MS has gotten off scot free.
I keep thinking about that eighties song, by the Suburbans, I think..."I know what boys like"...the last line is "...Sucker, hahahaha".
Well, it looks like a lot of anti-coporatists and naysayers about America (in general) are correct. America has become little more than a very successful bannana republic, where truth and justice are not an inalienable right, but a commodity on an auction block, for sale to the highest bidder.
I've always supected as much, but I never expected to be handed proof on a platter...one year, a spoof election, the next year, a spoof penalty. Go figure.
Ahhh...so as long as they use Linux, not Windows, they can do this. Actually, on X11, you can use a number of "free" licenses for the end product, and be compensated for creating it as well.
The Linux Qt goes out as a "Free Edition" while the Windows Qt goes out as the "Non Commercial" edition, with different restrictions on each.
The GPL is not all-knowing is this case. Reading the GPL tells you nothing about the following, which applies to Qt-win:
"Terms of use"
"Developing and distributing applications"
"Private users may use the Qt non-commercial edition in a non-commercial setting to produce non-commercial applications."
"A non-commercial setting means that you must not use the package in the course of your employment or whilst engaged in activities that will be compensated. A non-commercial application is an application that cannot be sold, leased, rented or otherwise distributed for recompense."
Snipped from:
http://www.trolltech.com/developer/download/qt-w in -noncomm.html
Seems odd to use different licences for different platforms, but I'm sure there is logic in it.
My reading of the Qt license says it can't be both ways; you can't be compensated for the code you develop, unless you buy a license, regardless of your end product license.
Where I work, we've been able to move several machines from the various MS and Unix OS choices to Linux.
The problem is management is scared of anything potentially complicated. They want to know that if you are run over by a bus at lunch, they can keep the facility running.
I've seen a lot of big Unix installations that only 1-2 people can keep running. How do you replace those people if they take another job or are both sick at the same time?
Don't get me wrong...the same is true for Windows, but MS has a massive FUD machine that makes it seem like running a complex installation of Windows machines is as easy as using Excel.
When a manager sees Admins using something remotely resembling Excel to get their jobs done, they figure it will be easy to replace that person and keep things going when the time comes. There is a much larger pool of MS people around that *nix people.
My recommendation: Don't be afraid to query people during the interview about Linux use. Make it clear that you enjoy and use open source. Challenge the "PC Week" Microsoft FUD campaigns in a gentle way.
Let the employer know "up front" you beleive in Open solutions, and although it may take you longer to get a job, you will both be happier in the long run.
Also, consider taking some of the free online courses from the Sun Microsystems site for their "Forte" IDE. This cross platform beast is resource hungry, but the "New Template" wizard lets you create everything from desktop apps to XML/DTD/CSS jsp apps to Javabeans...deploy, test, debug locally/remotely...cvs interface...all in one cross platform environment.
Although I have always disliked MS for it's illegal business practices, there are far bigger reasons why this is especially important in this decade.
In the next few years, the basic methods used to pipe IP around and assuure digital rights will be implemented and deployed.
I have to admit, I am one of those crazy people who hoped that the internet would create a much more sane way of producing and distributing media, one that would eventually weaken the major corps that currently control the audio and video space (bertelsmann, vivendi, etc.)
Yet dominance of a single entity in software infrastructure makes it (structurally) easy for other monopolies to join in or meld with that infrastructure.
The idea of BMG and Microsoft teaming up on digital rights, with no competition, is an unpleasant thought. Regualr consumers, artists, midlevel producers, alternative producers...all left in the cold unless they want to play with (and pay) this media giant.
The court decision opens the door to serious conduct remedies, including "fast track" government/legal action (without a trial) when future complaints are made.
If there are any Japanese readers out there, please consider coordinating with slashdot to do a interview/review with the staff that created this machine.
This is a very timely and enjoyable article for me--it seems like all I've seen in the papers and magazines is MS FUD lately...even the embedded journals are getting swamped with WinCE and other MS embedded strategy ads. Seems like anywhere a dollar is changing hands, MS wants to reach in and snatch it way from the two parties.
But, I digress. It's nice to see such a rich set of Engineering accomplishments using the Linux platform--I had no idea that much was happening. Very informative and well-written article.
It seems to me the free software movement has stalled in the USA. Witness the harsh laws, government and corporate comingling, etc.
I've often thought the only way for open source to succeed is for "other-than-USA" countries to embrace it...the USA just has too many influence peddlers and special interests involved in government to make the proper decisions...not to mention a population of dullards who know little of law and less of history. Harsh, but I beleive it true.
It's really looking like it will be the forward-thinking countries outside the USA who are going to turn the tide against "zero choice" monopoly software.
Even though I might have to watch, rather than participate, I'd really enjoy seeing Germany (and hopefully others!) give Bill Gates and his illegal corporation a "boot to the head".
I hope the Germans decide to do this...it's very impressive to see people standing up and demanding freedom, liberty, and choice from their government.
Honestly, I've written letters to my Senators and Representatives about increasing choice in computing, and although I get friendly replies on occassion, nothing seems to make any difference.
If anything, Microsoft seems to be strengthening on all fronts...home, professional, embedded. They're rolling over the planet, with no end in sight.
I know software is expensive to make, and techies are tough to deal with, but do our careers really have to be so extensively deprofessionalized by this horrid mixture of Government and Corporations?
Let me put it this way: When your opposition is a Corporation or other powerful entity, do you ever win or even get significant concessions?
This is NOT going to be a traditional war, like Desert Storm, nor is it going to be a police action, like what the USA went through in Vietnam (or the Soviets in Afganistan)
The Israeli Mosaad have been killing the al Qaeda people for quite some time, using covert activities like car bombs, etc.--but they have limited resources to track them down, and the planning must be meticulous, and the target really is rather ephemeral.
It's important to remember who we are, and what we are up against.Our goal must be supporting and protecting the innocent, while (literally) killing the guilty.
That means the Saudi, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan radical islamic strongholds will, over time, have to be identified and...sterilized...with the help of moderate elements in those nations.
It's hard to beleive we might need the help of Saddam Hussein's secret police, perhaps while he looks the other way, this time around, but think about it:
If the moderate muslims don't ante up, now that they have said that those responsible for the tragedy are not true muslims, then next time it might be gas, bio or nukes on our soil, or the soil of israel.
I think we have policies in place...that state a nuclear attack on israel or the USA will result in nuclear retaliation against the most likely agressor, period. It would be a shame to see tens or hundreds of thousands of moderate muslims get nuked because of a few hundred radicals. They say we would never do it, don't bet on that, ever.
Bush is right on this one...the Arab world needs to decide whether they want these radicals around in the future, and they better decide to give them up...covertly or overtly..because this needs to be taken care of now.
The leaders in the muslim world are politicians like elsewhere. There are moderates and radicals in their governments. Let's hope the thousands dead died for nothing, that the moderates help us clean house, and when it's over the more hateful elements of islam end up a historical footnote.
We need the moderates to help us, or we're doomed.
first off, the President is legally different from all other people in the country. by law, you are *legally bound* to respect his executive orders, whether you like them or not. you do not have the legal right to pick and choose which of his orders you will respect, as you would have with the average person.
i'm not saying you have to like the guy, just that he is legally different from other people.
this was an extremely close election. it could have easily gone either way. in such a close election, it really does come down to "the noise" in the process. some say there were gross violations of law in florida, i think there were mistakes made, but nothing particularly different from any other election.
the supreme court had to pick. one side would be pissed off either way. the nod went to bush, for a variety of reasons, most of which come down to chance--that is, it just so happened a lot of conservatives were on the court at the time this election occurred.
i think the nation needs a person of ethics...and neither bush nor gore have that. perhaps guiliani will? or nader? i'd like to see a third party come into play, someone from outside the "republicratic" system.
i think it's unfortunate that you called my post flamebait; i really do think there comes a time when people should accept the undesirable present, release the unfortunate past, and struggle toward a better future.
Slashdot Mirror
The whole thread makes me ill. Many projects are designed up front -- the basic feature set, the UI, the object interfaces. It's a shame they did not put more emphasis on this reality.
[Linus]
> Quite frankly, Sun is doomed. And it has
> nothing to do with their engineering practices
> or their coding style.
It may have everthing to do with evolution, but only because the baby is growing up, and the engineers have little or nothing new to toss out of the womb.
Sun made middleware happen; now MS is cloning it and taking their one big chance. Less evolution and more population.
Sun and SGI could have made small fairly inexpensive game cubes years ago -- cubes that could have doubled as engineering workstations or even clustered. They chose not to, going for the server market. Neither has seriously approached the asian manufacturing giants. Poor thought processes up front!
IMHO, of all the Unix giants, Irix and SGI had the best chance to make it big -- Irix, for all it's flaws, did the best job ever of hiding Unix, and they did it many years ago. Too bad they dropped the ball and failed to make a consumer device with the help of asia.
MS rises, and continues to rise. It may be evolution in the end, but it's the overwhelming size of their population, not the superiority of product.
Add in the failure of the USA to enforce it's laws, add in the poor strategies of the big iron Unix corps, and there you have it. Little evolution, since their was never a competitive population.
America has left it's utopian ideals far in the past.
Between the DRM movement and the coming "middleware revolution" (Java,.NET), you can kiss the computing industry goodbye.
I just don't see how freedom can compete with a government that desperately needs middleware to create backdoors--both at home and abroad.
Nor can it compete with two of the most powerful entities extant today--entertainment and Microsoft Bill.
Whatever. It's not like freedom hasn't lost before.
i followed cp/m well into th "ZCPR" era, the elephant's graveyard, Z-nodes, etc.
/.'ed, I hope the CP/M 68K source is there, too.
although the site is
I have an old Motorola 68K based Compupro box laying around, but I think the disks are bad.
the whole middleware model -- whether java or .NYET -- is about having a underlying object hierarchy in a known, unmodified state.
once you have that, you can do things like digital rights management...and NSA backdoors, maybe even MS backdoors, for sale to the highest bidder.
So, MS sells Goldman Sachs a backdoor into Smith Barney...or maybe the NSA gets a backdoor into various research computers at chinese universities. Or daddy gets his porno interests examined by the FBI.
Seems entirely possible, and if it's possible, it will be done. There is not a single entity that should not be afraid of "MS World".
I used one of the last papertape machines in the mid-seventies; we had rolls of free software all over the place, fortran code people wanted everyone to share. Having one's name in the comments made you feel like a real bigshot.
S-100 and MITS Altair had the first busses that really caught on, and Apple's, of course. I worked on a number of S-100s in the late seventies; upgrading cards that were mostly interchangable from a variety of vendors...compupro, CCS, Cromemco, etc.
If anything, it was Gary Kildall and Digital Research -- with their extremely hackable BIOS -- that made all the difference.
The man has a lot of nerve claiming he had anything to do with the roots of computing, other than teaching people it's okay to lie, cheat and steal.
Computing was above that until Microsoft came on the scene.
Why on earth anyone would release such a thing, with the name "Linux" on it, without disclosing all the technical and programming info, as well as the in-house development stuff is beyond me.
The SDK download wants you to agree to a fairly restrictive license, the tar files have cores in them, the docs are almost useless, and there is no way to backup or restore the unit from linux.
Someone at empowered technologies is a very confused person. Without more hacking info, that is easy to get, this thing is doomed.
As a dystopian, I'm actually quite happy the DOJ has graced Gate's bum with their lips.
You have to admit that this settlement is a big shot in the arm for all the people worldwide who consider the USA to be a feeble, corrupt, greed-based police state that mouths the words "Liberty, Freedom, Justice" as though they still had some meaning somewhere in the world.
Next time the USA critisizes some other countries political or humanitarian policies, all they have to say is "Bill Gates and George Bush! Don't tell us about corruption and justice!"
no...let them rot on the shelf till obsolete (say, 6 mos.) *that* will hurt ms.
I think interdata made/sold a relatively large number of async computers back in the 1970's.
I've been trying to say the lines I learned as a kid...things like:
"The land of the free, and the home of the brave"
or...
"...with liberty and justice for all"
...and I just can't keep a straight face while I say those lines. I just start laughing halfway through.
I mean, I'm both a cynic and a dystopian, so I knew historical documents like The Bill of Rights and The Consitution were fairly distant from modern society well before I was born, but I never expected the Bush administration to just set MS free. I mean, lots of republicans beleive in the free market way more than they beleive in "enterprise".
Nevertheless, corporate America must be a little concerned about this. It's rather close to admitting the emperor has no clothes--I kind of figured the rich and powerful would at least make a show of sacrificing MS on the alter of justice to some extent...and later let them off via payoffs and deals in the smoke-filled rooms...but it didn't happen that way. MS has gotten off scot free.
I keep thinking about that eighties song, by the Suburbans, I think..."I know what boys like"...the last line is "...Sucker, hahahaha".
Well, it looks like a lot of anti-coporatists and naysayers about America (in general) are correct. America has become little more than a very successful bannana republic, where truth and justice are not an inalienable right, but a commodity on an auction block, for sale to the highest bidder.
I've always supected as much, but I never expected to be handed proof on a platter...one year, a spoof election, the next year, a spoof penalty. Go figure.
The cubicle next to me has been occupied by a linux-powered humanoid for the last two years.
...they hate the competition.
Ahhh...so as long as they use Linux, not Windows, they can do this. Actually, on X11, you can use a number of "free" licenses for the end product, and be compensated for creating it as well.
w in -noncomm.html
The Linux Qt goes out as a "Free Edition" while the Windows Qt goes out as the "Non Commercial" edition, with different restrictions on each.
The GPL is not all-knowing is this case. Reading the GPL tells you nothing about the following, which applies to Qt-win:
"Terms of use"
"Developing and distributing applications"
"Private users may use the Qt non-commercial edition in a non-commercial setting to produce non-commercial applications."
"A non-commercial setting means that you must not use the package in the course of your employment or whilst engaged in activities that will be compensated. A non-commercial application is an application that cannot be sold, leased, rented or otherwise distributed for recompense."
Snipped from:
http://www.trolltech.com/developer/download/qt-
Seems odd to use different licences for different platforms, but I'm sure there is logic in it.
...or do they work for free (uncompensated)?
My reading of the Qt license says it can't be both ways; you can't be compensated for the code you develop, unless you buy a license, regardless of your end product license.
Just curious...how much does TrollTech pay the kernel developers to run on top of *their* objects?
Where I work, we've been able to move several machines from the various MS and Unix OS choices to Linux.
The problem is management is scared of anything potentially complicated. They want to know that if you are run over by a bus at lunch, they can keep the facility running.
I've seen a lot of big Unix installations that only 1-2 people can keep running. How do you replace those people if they take another job or are both sick at the same time?
Don't get me wrong...the same is true for Windows, but MS has a massive FUD machine that makes it seem like running a complex installation of Windows machines is as easy as using Excel.
When a manager sees Admins using something remotely resembling Excel to get their jobs done, they figure it will be easy to replace that person and keep things going when the time comes. There is a much larger pool of MS people around that *nix people.
My recommendation: Don't be afraid to query people during the interview about Linux use. Make it clear that you enjoy and use open source. Challenge the "PC Week" Microsoft FUD campaigns in a gentle way.
Let the employer know "up front" you beleive in Open solutions, and although it may take you longer to get a job, you will both be happier in the long run.
Also, consider taking some of the free online courses from the Sun Microsystems site for their "Forte" IDE. This cross platform beast is resource hungry, but the "New Template" wizard lets you create everything from desktop apps to XML/DTD/CSS jsp apps to Javabeans...deploy, test, debug locally/remotely...cvs interface...all in one cross platform environment.
Although I have always disliked MS for it's illegal business practices, there are far bigger reasons why this is especially important in this decade.
In the next few years, the basic methods used to pipe IP around and assuure digital rights will be implemented and deployed.
I have to admit, I am one of those crazy people who hoped that the internet would create a much more sane way of producing and distributing media, one that would eventually weaken the major corps that currently control the audio and video space (bertelsmann, vivendi, etc.)
Yet dominance of a single entity in software infrastructure makes it (structurally) easy for other monopolies to join in or meld with that infrastructure.
The idea of BMG and Microsoft teaming up on digital rights, with no competition, is an unpleasant thought. Regualr consumers, artists, midlevel producers, alternative producers...all left in the cold unless they want to play with (and pay) this media giant.
The court decision opens the door to serious conduct remedies, including "fast track" government/legal action (without a trial) when future complaints are made.
That Isamu Robot is just absolutely amazing.
If there are any Japanese readers out there, please consider coordinating with slashdot to do a interview/review with the staff that created this machine.
This is a very timely and enjoyable article for me--it seems like all I've seen in the papers and magazines is MS FUD lately...even the embedded journals are getting swamped with WinCE and other MS embedded strategy ads. Seems like anywhere a dollar is changing hands, MS wants to reach in and snatch it way from the two parties.
But, I digress. It's nice to see such a rich set of Engineering accomplishments using the Linux platform--I had no idea that much was happening. Very informative and well-written article.
It seems to me the free software movement has stalled in the USA. Witness the harsh laws, government and corporate comingling, etc.
I've often thought the only way for open source to succeed is for "other-than-USA" countries to embrace it...the USA just has too many influence peddlers and special interests involved in government to make the proper decisions...not to mention a population of dullards who know little of law and less of history. Harsh, but I beleive it true.
It's really looking like it will be the forward-thinking countries outside the USA who are going to turn the tide against "zero choice" monopoly software.
Even though I might have to watch, rather than participate, I'd really enjoy seeing Germany (and hopefully others!) give Bill Gates and his illegal corporation a "boot to the head".
I hope the Germans decide to do this...it's very impressive to see people standing up and demanding freedom, liberty, and choice from their government.
Honestly, I've written letters to my Senators and Representatives about increasing choice in computing, and although I get friendly replies on occassion, nothing seems to make any difference.
If anything, Microsoft seems to be strengthening on all fronts...home, professional, embedded. They're rolling over the planet, with no end in sight.
I know software is expensive to make, and techies are tough to deal with, but do our careers really have to be so extensively deprofessionalized by this horrid mixture of Government and Corporations?
Let me put it this way: When your opposition is a Corporation or other powerful entity, do you ever win or even get significant concessions?
...
// Performance Mods (B.G.; Microsoft Inc.)
// openOffice->launch();
// spin cpu to look busy
int main()
{
unsigned long launch_time = gettimeofday()+20;
while(1)
{
if( gettimeofday() == launch_time )
break;
}
openOffice->launch();
}
>> We need the moderates to help us, or we're
>> doomed.
> I don't think giving the terrorists a "-1, Troll"
> is going to do much.
No, but "+1, Informative" to the moderate Muslims could.
This is NOT going to be a traditional war, like Desert Storm, nor is it going to be a police action, like what the USA went through in Vietnam (or the Soviets in Afganistan)
The Israeli Mosaad have been killing the al Qaeda people for quite some time, using covert activities like car bombs, etc.--but they have limited resources to track them down, and the planning must be meticulous, and the target really is rather ephemeral.
It's important to remember who we are, and what we are up against.Our goal must be supporting and protecting the innocent, while (literally) killing the guilty.
That means the Saudi, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan radical islamic strongholds will, over time, have to be identified and...sterilized...with the help of moderate elements in those nations.
It's hard to beleive we might need the help of Saddam Hussein's secret police, perhaps while he looks the other way, this time around, but think about it:
If the moderate muslims don't ante up, now that they have said that those responsible for the tragedy are not true muslims, then next time it might be gas, bio or nukes on our soil, or the soil of israel.
I think we have policies in place...that state a nuclear attack on israel or the USA will result in nuclear retaliation against the most likely agressor, period. It would be a shame to see tens or hundreds of thousands of moderate muslims get nuked because of a few hundred radicals. They say we would never do it, don't bet on that, ever.
Bush is right on this one...the Arab world needs to decide whether they want these radicals around in the future, and they better decide to give them up...covertly or overtly..because this needs to be taken care of now.
The leaders in the muslim world are politicians like elsewhere. There are moderates and radicals in their governments. Let's hope the thousands dead died for nothing, that the moderates help us clean house, and when it's over the more hateful elements of islam end up a historical footnote.
We need the moderates to help us, or we're doomed.
Windows is getting a lot of user level security tools now--easily configurable via a gui, not hard to use.
Linux Security is powerful, but is a morass of application and configuration issues.
Someone oughta make a GUI like gtp with tabs to logically split this stuff out and configure it, maybe even a tab for doing saint probes, nmaps, etc.
first off, the President is legally different from all other people in the country. by law, you are *legally bound* to respect his executive orders, whether you like them or not. you do not have the legal right to pick and choose which of his orders you will respect, as you would have with the average person.
i'm not saying you have to like the guy, just that he is legally different from other people.
this was an extremely close election. it could have easily gone either way. in such a close election, it really does come down to "the noise" in the process. some say there were gross violations of law in florida, i think there were mistakes made, but nothing particularly different from any other election.
the supreme court had to pick. one side would be pissed off either way. the nod went to bush, for a variety of reasons, most of which come down to chance--that is, it just so happened a lot of conservatives were on the court at the time this election occurred.
i think the nation needs a person of ethics...and neither bush nor gore have that. perhaps guiliani will? or nader? i'd like to see a third party come into play, someone from outside the "republicratic" system.
i think it's unfortunate that you called my post flamebait; i really do think there comes a time when people should accept the undesirable present, release the unfortunate past, and struggle toward a better future.