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Ellison's ID Card Plan Gets More Attention
fredbox writes: "A Mercury News article reports Oracle CEO Larry Ellison and John Ashcroft have been meeting to discuss creation of a national ID database including fingerprints, facial scans, etc. Other supporters include Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNealy. They claim these cards would be 'voluntary', much as the act of leaving your home or purchasing groceries are voluntary activities." Update: 10/18 01:48 GMT by M : Hah! btempleton writes: "Here is a prototype of Larry Ellison's new national ID card."
Just like those credit cards that have pictures on them. That way, if someone steals the card, they can't use it because the picture doesn't match their appearance.
I'm so clever!
I'd rather just have a chip implanted in my neck. Or maybe a nice barcode tattoo.
I write trance music.
"They claim these cards would be 'voluntary', much as the act of leaving your home or purchasing groceries are voluntary activities."
:)
ah, so they're voluntary
Please help! I'm stuck inside my virtual reality headset!
Voluntary? Whats the point then? A Drivers license is voluntary.
i still like the driver's license argument... we already have them... they could run with that. i don't really care if people know who i am. i am not a criminal!
Yeah, it'll be really cute when you can't fly on a plane, ride a train, get a credit card, open a bank account, or get a job without one...
Not to mention have email...
Dear Mr. Ashcroft,
I would be willing to enroll in your new National ID program, surrending my fingerprints and facial scan in exchange for a sworn affidavit from you that the reources of the FBI will be spent chasing criminals and not harmless copyright infringement. That is to say, no more working for RIAA, MPAA, Adobe or any other monopolistic commercial interest.
Sincerely,
John Q Public.
I'll only use this card if Microsoft accepts it.
If they're voluntary, what's the point? It sort of has to be all or nothing if it's going to work. I, for one, will remain squarely on the side of nothing. Besides, won't it be assumed that you have something to hide if you decide to opt out? My $0.02 PhReaKy D. MoNKeY
Income-tax in Canada is also 'voluntary'.
Paying taxes are actually written in federal law as voluntary. But we know what happens if you don't pay.
Bets?
All the stores I've been in tend to get pissed off if you ignore the purchasing part of the experience.
"Dershowitz said the database would have to be carefully guarded and that police should not be able to ask for a card at will..."
And Social Security Numbers aren't necessary for jobs, bank accounts, credit cards...
If I'm really good and I turn in lots of bad, bad terrorists will the government bump me up to Platinum card status?
And if so, can I get mine with Pokemon or my favorite sport's team emblazoned across it?
I'd post something negative, but I'm afraid Larry Elison would have me sent away for "Political Re-education".
The pomposity of the professor is inversely proportional to the difficulty and importance of the subject being taught.
It's not about the cards. It's about the system.
This system would cost many billions of dollars to implement, and would give no real gain.
>creation of a national ID database including fingerprints, facial scans, etc.
:) )
ETC????
God what more do you want with that!? Anal probing? if so, I suggest Larry himself does the Quality Assurance testing part... you know... to be sure it gets it right the first time... maybe after a few dozens of tries (you know how buggy those things are), he'll resort to something less 1984-ish...
... then again, I know a lot of people that would stick anything "up theirs" to get a few M $ worth of contracts... some of you pervers reading this are actually doing it for free (or fun, you pick any
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Just please educate me. What is so wrong about the card? If you would like to have an ID card, something that the US do _NOT_ have, and it carries your picture and your fingerprint, what again is so wrong with that. In my homecountry, Germany, you have to register with the city you live in, tell them where you live and, if you move, unregister with your old city and register in the new one. They can always track you. You have to have an ID card. It carries your address, height, weight, place of birth and your picture. If you move within the country (see above) you have to have it updated. True, it does not carry your fingerprint, but it has a nice little code that gets scanned when you travel by airplane, etc. It is compatible with the electronic readers at immigration that you guys might be familiar with. And I even think there is a fine if you do not carry it with you. So how is the proposed ID card so much different? I personally would like it if people have to register in a more thorough way if they travel with me on an airplane. Please do not get me wrong, systems can be abused and there are enough examples of that, but I do not see that coming with a national ID card system.
Ok, instead of it being just merely "a bad idea", I think, "it's a really bad idea."
Heck, I'd go so far as to say, "it's a really, really bad idea."
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Voluntary... wonderful.
Of course jobs and colleges will eventually require them, so its only "voluntary" if you want to be uneducated and unemployed.. just like eating is a "voluntary" activity for people who don't want to live more than a couple weeks, I suppose?
I don't mean to sound like a troll, but I don't think calling this "voluntary" makes much sense.
--TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
fredbox writes: "They claim these cards would be inserted into the rectal cavity 'involuntary', much as the act of fucking sheep or sticking groceries up your pet's ass are voluntary activities."
Could someone in the press pleas at least ask the damn question? To wit: how exactly would these ID cards have prevented the events of 9/11? The terrorists didn't have to lie about their names to get on the airplanes, they just had to buy the tickets!
And the brethren went away edified.
It doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. The problem would come from the limitations of the system. Or more precisely, what it would limit people from doing. It may be voluntary to have such an ID card, but if it's too inconveniencing NOT to have one, it's essentially mandatory.
If it's simply for ID purposes in high-risk areas, then that's fine. If I want to get on board a plane filled with tons of jet fuel and with hundreds of other people, it's okay to check and see that I'm not "dangerous." (Who defines "dangerous" here, also?)
But if I'm going to go buy some liquor, cigarettes, pr0n, or _Catcher in the Rye_, I don't want to have to use my ID. I could care less about who knows I'm buying what, but do you REALLY need to know?
The other interesting point I'd like to bring up is: Fakes. How hard would these things be to fake? No matter how hard you try, someone with enough time and money will find a way to make a fake. I mean, there's high school kids with fake drivers licenses now.
Where the wind blows, the tumbleweed goes.
The basic premise of 'National ID' systems is that if we build a database of all law-abiding trustworthy citizens, anybody who does not exist in this database must be a 'prohibited person'.
This premise is also one of the biggest dangers of a national ID, and the primary objection raised by civil libertarians and the ultra paranoid.
The 'Brady Bill' background check law was written with a safeguard- all records of 'successful' checks were to be deleted. In reality, the Clinton administration ignored this limitation, holding records indefinitely.
The same sort of behavior can be expected regarding any safeguards built into a 'National ID' system.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
"'I think 99.99 percent of Americans will want these ID cards,' Ellison said. "
I think that 99.99 percent of Americans think that Larry Ellison pulled these stats out of thin air and are tainted by his own greed.
pherris
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
I know this may sound like a silly thing to quibble over in such an important plan, but I think we (like all special interest groups) have a right to be heard.
-- MarkusQ
P.S. I am quite relieved to see that they dropped the idea of trying to track mod-points real-time. That would have been a nightmare!
..Is somebody spreading this through the mail? How do you prevent forgery? Make a law against it? It's nice to know that 'our way of life' is being so staunchly defended by those that would have us bolted down, tattoed and tracked 'for our own protection'.
air and light and time and space
The cards also would be instantly checked against a new national database. That database would base would link existing criminal and immigration data to screen out potential terrorists.
But AFAIK, none of the terrorists HAD criminal records. They were perfectly good citizens as far as anyone knew up until getting on those planes. So criminal data's no good.
Ah, but they did just emigrate from Afghanistan, or Iraq. That would show up on the immigration data.
So what this suggests to me, is that if you've just immigrated from Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd be allowing another thirty minutes at the airport, to deal with all those 'are you a terrorist' questions. Because that's the only thing that separated all those terrorists from the rest of the travellers.
It'd be good to see a policy from the US that didn't assume that terrorists have a big flashing sign on their forehead that says "I AM A TERRORIST." Because that's how I think they're planning on telling Osama Bin Laden from all the other robed, bearded guys carrying AK47s in Afghanistan.
-- This post is about truth, beauty, freedom, and above all things, Karma
The best place is clearly in the right hand or in the forehead. This has been well documented for centuries.
Breakfast served all day!
When was the last time you heard of any US citizen being able to do much without presenting their social security number?
How long before Feinstein sells (ahem, I mean, "legislates") access to this database to major publishers and media conglomerates? After all, with all the talk of encryption crippling and government-mandated copy-prevention lately, perhaps the mysterious terrorists are financing their operations by selling bootleg DVDs (perhaps even with secret terrorist messages steganographically embedded in the signal! Gasp!) and using hacked no-back-door versions of commercial encryption software, so, just in case, we should probably let MPAA and BSA use the database to correlate with any 'suspicious' activity they might notice...
You know, as recent as a year or so ago, the above would have sounded like paranoid ranting to me. It worries me that it no longer does...
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
Microsoft is eyeing this too, I'm sure.
Of course, I wouldn't personally mind having an iris scan record embedded in my passport/drivers license combo card.
I wouldn't even mind a central database.
As long as the ACLU maintains it.
On that note, does anybody know what kinds of legislative action really would be needed to put this together? It strikes me as requiring a pretty close-coupling of business and government interests, OR the federalization of a whole lot of currently private organizations.
-schussat
The hour of noon has passed. Let us go and get some Kentucky Fried Chicken.
Incorporating these into current drivers licences (or passports) isn't such a bad idea. Have a chip on the card that stores fingerprints, retina scans, whatever they intend to use. This would be the least painful and most effective way of getting a great idea decent penetration into the populus.
I love the identification card that Safeway hands out (i.e., the "Safeway Club Card"). I can not use it, and I end up "volunteering" to pay more money at their stores for goods whose prices have been inflated so that the "Club members" can have them for a reasonable price. All I have to do is get on their bandwagon, be tracked, and I have the goods at the correct price.
Similarly, last time I checked, it was good enough to be born in the US to be a US citizen (a piece of paper sitting at some far-away health department was enough to prove it for the occasional job or welfare application). And having some money in your pocket was enough to get fair treatment in the grocery store (well, at least since the late 60's). Does this mean I'll have to have a "national ID card" just to be allowed out of my house? After all, that air out there is the property of the US government, right?
"Where are your papers?"
-Scott Hutton
Let me see if I get this straight.
We, the slaves, in order to more perfectly serve our corporate masters, consent by not doing anything to the removal of our constitutional rights to Liberty, Freedom, and the Pursuit of Happiness. In addition, we agree to the suspension of our constitutional rights to freedom from unusual search and seizure, the lack of proper posted warrants in the removal of those rights, and the extensions of patents and copyrights beyond the time periods specified in that Constitution.
I don't think so.
You have to fight for your right to party!
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
It amuses me when people say the national ID card won't be a big deal unless you're a criminal....recall in 1984 that the government didn't care about ninety percent of the population...they just cared about the intellectuals. Only a few people could think, and they were the most dangerous.
So of course the national ID card won't make a difference for most people...most people just aren't that important. It will be the radical thinkers who suffer.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
My copy of 1984 has no mention of anal probing. Is this a situation similar to the abridging of Clockwork Orange in the US?
No matter what, after Sept. 11, there will be some serious security measures on airports and other problematic zones. These national ID cards are actually a convenient way how to avoid these. It will NOT cost money, it will actually save money, because the less people will go through these thorough checks every day, the less it will cost overall. The legislation that will place these checks in place is what takes your freedom, not this card. This card may make implementation of this new comming legislation economically possible. Thats it.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
These cards might be voluntary until you need to buy a car, fly on a plane, or do anything useful in this world!!!!
Just like credit cards... You can't even rent a worthless movie or rent a car without a credit card!
If Ashcroft and Fienstien both like it, it HAS to be a REALLY bad idea. Come on, I can't think of many people who have worse records when it comes to undermining the Bill of Rights than those two.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
No shit, dickless. Now, go eat a bag of hell.
From the article:
Ellison said that if he does donate the software, maintenance and upgrades won't be free.
Way to ensure that Oracle stays around for ever Larry! Not a bad bit of insurance for Sun either as they are likely to be the platform of choice.
Wanna get high?
I don't really see the problem with such a system, per se. I do have a problem with the proponents of such a system being such unabashed opportunistic pigs. Remeber Oracle's haste to post their earnings after the WTC tragedy? For shame.
Look, you've got driver's licenses, social security numbers, fingerprints, license photos, criminal records, FBI records, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to assemble and relate these components in a database.
This could be very useful. This could be abused. Sounds pretty much like any technical endeavor. Do we stick our heads in the sand, and hope the bogeyman will go away, or do we deal?
The problem isn't the technology, it's the abuse of technology. This is precisely why such systems shouldn't be trusted to proprietary vendors such as Oracle or Sun. Our government should not become beholden to anyone's private interests.
A national identity database would be an extraordinarily useful tool for law enforcement. Does it further empower our government? Of course it does. Of course such a system will need to be monitored and carefully crafted to prevent abuse. But that does not mean we have to go so far as to dismiss the idea entirely. Our government controls nuclear warheads also. Are you afraid that they will be dropped on your head? Call me crazy, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Just don't let Larry upgrade his Learjet with my tax dollars.
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
I hope you don't own any dogs. And if you do, for cripe's sake, get a book on canine care or something.
Takahashi Rumiko made beats! DON, taku, DON, taku. . .
The problem here is that we are confusing the following:
...).
....
We have a problem with non-citizens threatening the US. We do not have a problem with citizens threatening the US (apologies to the McVeighs, you're just not that threatening, baby
So the CEOs and their Senate servants want us to give up our constitutional rights when we aren't the problem.
The obvious solution is that only non-citizens need National ID cards, not US citizens.
Unless someone held a Constitutional Congress or passed a Constitutional Amendment when I wasn't looking
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
>>Why dont you just stick a leash up my ass!!
termite666 you are fined one credit for violating the verbal moralities...
It probably sounds silly, but running a barcode down the nose might work better than either the forehead or hand. There are fewer potential problems with hats and gloves (which important this time of year)..
The card would contain basic information about the holder, including Social Security number, and would be linked to a federal database containing detailed personal data, including digital records of the person's thumbprint, palm print, face or eyes.
Later of course we could expand it for more specific information like your health records, financial status, political slant, religious affiliations and employment history. Of course you would not have to provide this to anyone else, but then again they would not have to hire you, provide products or services, and extend credit to you.
To handle these issues I am certain we will be asked to trust them. And should it prove to be an issue You they will take it up in a future bill.
I am reminded of the principle of SAM (Specific, Attainable, and Measurable). I then ask the simple question (the same I posed for cryptography "back doors"), "If this was in place on 9/11, would it have stopped the terrorists?" Ding-ding-ding, I am sorry, but at last count something like 14 of the hijackers were unknown to anyone. They would have had cards that allowed them to get on without an issue.
"But what about the others? They would have been stopped." No, they would not have been on to begin with, or they would have paid someone to create or reprogram cards.
So what will work? With regards to planes, no one on a plane will believe a hijacker is anything but suicidal. Even if they are not, and really just want money. Sorry, we are going to be looking out for ourselves and each other. The best security you can ever hope to find.
I was just celebrating my birthday, when I heard a faint beeping eminating from my wallet. My National ID card is blinking, and displaying a message "Immediately Report to Carousel for termination."
I'd be all for getting a card with an MD5sum of my DNA strand on it. Sure the government could track my every move but hey, whatever it takes to kick criminals in the nuts I'm all for!
It'd be like living in one those futuristic movies... It'd be so cool.
In anticipation of hundreds of redundant "big brother is watching" posts,
I challenge every poster who wants to tell us about all the problems inherent in a national ID card, to instead suggest alternative solutions that increase national security while protecting personal liberties and freedoms (or at least not infringing upon them).
Note: Suggesting appeasement of fundamentalist Muslim demands earns you no points. Let's hear some real ideas.
``Four Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if they have the cards and can just slash them through card readers,'' he said.
---
Excuse me son, because you look Arab and are resing the Koran, and not at all because of your race or culture, could you please show me your voluntary ID card? What's this? You didn't opt for the ID card? Come with me...
(Later in secret underground compound...)
*bitchslap* ARE YOU A CITIZEN!
(arab dude) Y-y-yes s-s-sir!
THEN WHERE'S YOUR ID?
(arab dude) I told you! I didn't want it!
*thwap upside the back of the head* Then how do we know you're not a terrorist?
(arab dude) How do you know I wouldn't be one if I had the stupid card?
Ohh a smart guy huh? HEY JIMBOB! FIRE UP THE POKERS!
--Roy
What are the implications for racial and ethnic groups (eg - asylum seeking Afghans) haven't they applied for asylum/emigrated to escape persecution?
My favorite part "...Ellison has not offered specifics on how the estimated 8 million illegal immigrants in the United States might be affected."
Does this mean we can finally get rid of them?!?
What part of illegal don't we understand? Where is the debate? Why do we need to argue what is clear and evident in the naming of 'illegals'. Drop em off far over the border with a parachute the first time, without one the second time. They won't come back. It's also called welfare reform, healthcare reform, and bugdet cuts.
Dumbass, get a clue
All of the terrorists were required to show valid ID to get on the plane. Most of them have VALID ID (would have had one of these cards issued by the government) and as a foriegn agent entering the country I don't see how this can be very difficult to get. For that matter, this would only cover US citizens, not visitors, people on short business trips (to get trained to fly planes maybe) or anything else...
What I do see this becoming is a simple way for the government to track me, potentially businesses tracking me (they will now have access to a single point of data on every trasaction now) as I purchase goods and services from them. How will I as John Q. Public, know that this database isn't hackable (remember brought to you by the people who brought you Oracle 11i), won't reveal more information to the person swiping the card than is needed (I mean just because I swipe, will that mean that my whole database file is available to the swipee ???) and the data in the database is accurate (who gets to put it in, do I get a chance to audit my file and replace inacuracies etc.) I just love having to deal with my credit card files now... What a pain
Gosh. When I first heard about Elison's quest for a national ID card, my Privacy-Sense when haywire. I saw this as the end of public privacy and civil-liberties. After reading the article and specifically the quotes from Gen. Schwarzkopf and Alan Dershowitz, I began to wonder these fears weren't a bit irrational. I mean, if they're voluntary and all, what's the big deal? All the security and convenience that it would provide would surely outweigh any paranoid delusions of Big Brother watching over me. Wouldn't it?
I've been searching for some semblance of hope and security ever since 9/11. Working in Lower Manhattan and living across the Hudson from Manhattan has totally changed my life, and not all for the good. I am completely scared of coming into work. I am afraid to walk around town and ride the subways. For all intents and purposes, the terrorist attacks have succeeded when it comes to me and my family. We are scared shitless. So, when people start offering ANYTHING that seems to provide a bit of security, I tend to be a bit less skeptical than usual.
That being said, I'm still not sure that I'm totally in agreement with national ID cards. Sure, they're voluntary today. What about tomorrow? What provisions do we have that will keep them (and those who use them) from growing in power? And who is to say that another emergency won't happen again, causing even more draconian measures to be put in place?
These are the kinds of questions that make me uneasy. Of course, the very worst thing is that these questions even need to be raised at all.
--
Mando
Get a new SSN! File false paperwork! Fill out a false address at Safeway!
Larry Ellison? :-)
chongo (was here)
Imagine the look on Ellison's face when airport security scans his card and the name comes up as 'Osama Bin Laden' -> priceless!!
Right on... it would take only a day and we would be totally secure and free again!!
The proposal is meant for non-US citizens entering the United States. For US citizens it would not be mandated.
My own speculation here now, why would it be useful? Well, for one, if I recall correctly, 6 out of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were already listed on FBI/CIA watchlists. Yet they entered the country legally, using legal visas, bought airline tickets, did all their activities, and at no time during their daily activities they were flagged against these watchlists. The ID itself is secondary, but the principal goal is to have an efficient way to check a name against a database of suspects
Of course, there would be all sorts of ways your Average Joe Terrorist might go about avoiding these things, including a fake id. But that sort of stuff would have to be considered as part of the design. If this were to be done.
Benbox
Elison is offering to put something in place that already exists.
A national ID card program was signed into law by Clinton in 1996. The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act included provisions for a National ID card. The card would include biometric info (section 656) and is already on the books. The cards are supposed to be developed by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the Department of Transportation.
Also, check out this great article which draws some Orwellian examines connections between recent technologies and privacy.
Guvegrra?
Half the terrorists were ALREADY wanted by multiple agencies. The CIA passed the buck to the FBI who passed it the INS who passed it to the Boston PD, in one case.
ID cards will have zero chance of helping. These guys bought tickets in cash. They had false ID already - Drivers licenses from multiple states, including HazMat hauling upgrades.
This is simply another victim disarmament law. FIt is hassle for innocent people, and meaningless to the guilty. Hint: Outlawing crime does not end it.
not living in a police state where any petty official may demand "Zeigen Sie Ihre Papiere, Kameraden!".
Yes, systems can be abused,and in the long run, all systems will be abused. If we create the necessary infrastructure for the government and corporations to track us today, they may not use it for less noble purposes now. But under a more conservative administration, after a more distressing terrorist event, they will use the database we build today to empower the big brother of tomorrow.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. What's in it for him is a death-grip on the identities of the entire country. What's in it for him is becoming as important as a public utility, but having all the benefits of a for-profit corporation. What's in it for him is that this is the only way he'll ever get richer and more important than Bill Gates, and he's got a woody the size of Florida.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
Just doesn't seem useful enough idea to spend god know how much money on.
Like someone already said, we have drivers' licenses. Funny also that the sun microsystems guy was in attendence as if to say, "Sun servers would be perfrect for handling such great amounts of data such as this." Might not be too bad if they were truly optional, cause only people who were for crypto backdoors and such would get them.
Still its far too easy to look into the 'getting groceries is optional' part a little harder and see id card scanners inside our houses we need to swipe our ID cards through to leave our house.
This would be a semi-great alternative for people who have no need to drive or choose not to drive but still want a viable ID to use for writing checks or something...
On a complete opposite end of that though, but still of a dubious nature, they could be disabled remotely so that people highly suspect in a crime could be unable to leave buildings, this however, combined with someting like the SSSCA and DMCA could lock you in your house for inviting a friend over to listen to a new mp3 you somehow got from somewhere. Scary and not likely, but I doubt that noone of an opposite viewpoint never thought of it first.
First off, I think that this a horrible idea, not only would it be a tremendous waste of taxpayer dollars, but who would we be paying that money to? Yup, you guessed it Larry "everything in the world needs to be in one of my databases" Ellingson and the fine folks at Oracle Corporation. The same company that released Oracle 8 before it even worked properly. Frankly I don't trust Oracle and Ellingson further than I can throw them (which isn't very far), and I sure as hell aren't going to trust them with every single last piece of personal information there is out there (not that most of it is all but public domain anyway).
If you push for this national ID card, I will give money to support the campaign of any person who runs against you.
I consider myself a liberal Democrat, but don't let that concern you. I will support your opponent regardless of his or her stances on any other issues, just as long as they advocate doing away with the national ID. They could be a member of the KKK an an advocate of dumping cyanide in our drinking water, and I'll still give them money.
Why, you ask? Simple: to punish you for selling the freedom of the people of the United States down the river.
Sincerely,
MAXOMENOS of Slashdot.
Finding God in a Dog
For your first l33t hacking job on this onerous and invasive abortion of an idea, I recommend cloning Larry Ellison's ID card.
Imagine the ease with which we can catch all terrorists and thugs since they'll all be named "Larry". What a great concept! Thanks for your assistance in this matter.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
``Wouldn't you feel better if everyone who walked into an airport showed their ID card and put their thumb in the scanner and you knew they were who they said they were?''
No Larry, I would not feel better. I might feel safer, but not by very much. Besides, is what we want to feel better about flying, or do we want to feel safer about flying? Or do we want to actually BE safer while flying?
How about that for a novel approach? Instead of trying to get the public to be willing to board a plane, why not improve safety for real? Put those National Guardsmen to work checking bags.
Do you realize that STILL, 9 out of 10 checked bags are placed into the cargo compartment of commercial jets, without so much as a passing glance? It's true.
You can also STILL check a bag on a flight, and then not get on that flight, and your bag will be carried anyway. You think we were caught with our pants down on 9/11? What will our leaders tell us about air safety when the next attack is a classical bomb-in-checked-bag-but-terrorist-missed-flight, like the Lockerbie disaster?
Edith Keeler Must Die
Umm... this is a website dedicated to reporting on open source and the likes..
A national ID card is worthless, I'm glad you agree with that.
Before checking into a plane, you have to provide a dirvers license, passport, credit card, already. All of these items requires positive identification to obatain in the first place - unless you engae in fraud or forgery. If you break those laws, you'll break any others too. Like say, crashing planes.
Had the FBI/CIA/INS bothered to provide watch lists to the FAA, the FAA could have had an alert flag when Allah Kablammah attempted to board his plane and buy his ticket. The minimum wage (double min actually) security guard is told to search Mr. Kablammah, he finds the knife or he notifies the actual police officers who are already there - no air marshall needed for this - to do the search and check Mr. Kablammah - known associate and illegal alien, they detain him for genuine criminal activity - overstaying his visa, etc.
At no point is a non-known criminal subject to any additonal action, voluntary or otherwise. Laws which affect only law-abiding citizens are useless in stopping criminals.
Plus Bob from Ohio gets to keep his souvenir nail clippers from Graceland.
No new laws or ID card needed. The only thing needed is a little more openess from our government about what it does and its actual enforcement of legitimate laws - immigration control and bail jumping.
The Nazis had this idea too, but since Sun and Oracle weren't around, they used yellow stars and tattooed numbers.
The card may be voluntary at first, but it's just an amendment away from being required by law.
My main concern with this is the ability to use this unique ID to data mine for trends. A radical example:
A serial killer rents 3 movies before going out to play. Everyone else that rents those 3 movies is now in the company of a psychopath in the eyes of the law.
THe quote about chipping his children make me wonder if DSS should be checking out the Ellison household. An implanted chain ring would keep his kids inside at night. Scary man.
As I recall there was a US supreme cout case around 1980? where San Diego had a law requiring an ID. Larson (Larson, Lawson?? not sure on spelling) was ordered to produce a card because he was WWB (Walking While Black) in an upscale neighborhood. He refused and was busted. The supremes tossed the case out.
"At a speech in Salt Lake City last week, former Desert Storm commander Schwarzkopf said he saw nothing wrong with ID cards. ``I've had a military ID card since I was a cadet at West Point and I haven't lost any freedom,'' he told a cheering crowd."
Schwarzkopf is a dumbass, he signed away his rights when you joined the military, so what he said, is a bold faced lie!
They claim these cards would be 'voluntary', much as the act of leaving your home or purchasing groceries are voluntary activities.
* tsssj, tsssj, lights his flame thrower *
Sounds good at first glance. But this is utter horsehit. The comparison is rediculous and is designed to do nothing else but make us all feel warm and fuzzy about this thing. Yet what on earth could leaving your home _possibly_ have in common with getting a National ID card?
Not that I expected Ellison to say something meaningful. He's a master of coming up with statements like these.
If they are going to sell this to the american public with these kind of arguments, I'd be very worried. It's not that the card couldn't be a good idea, it's just the fact that they are obviously not level with us about their true intentions.
* foop... flame thrower off *
Sure,
It may make you *feel* safe, but when it comes down to it, anyone with a card or a good eBay rating can really screw you over.
By all accounts, many of the terrorists were quiet, neighborly people. An ID card will only allow for these people to be registered. Secuirty is not something that exists. This card is just something to make us think that it does.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
Do I get a Yellow Card as a warning, and a Red Card when I'm about to be thrown out of the country?
sulli
RTFJ.
Experience is what you get when you are expecting something else...
"Straddling the sword of technology..."
the whole point of terrorism is to cause chaos within the system, dismantling the rights we've held so dear for over 200 years. the national id card would be a win for the terrorists and larry's bank account and one step closer to armageddon. i'd rather see soldiers with m-16's at airports before i carry a national id card with my dna encoded on it. NO, this wouldn't be abused. freedom comes at a cost, our fore fathers died for it, and we shouldn't dishonour them by giving it up for a little safty. if these id cards are implimented it will prove to the terrorists just how weak this country truly is, and then they will have won.
Remember the search on Google for more evil than satan returned Microsoft.
After doing a contract for Oracle back in 99 I said that Oracle = more evil than M$ (belive it or not)
Now here's the proof the world needs to see how evil Oracle really is.
-Jasa -- Linux - The SOURCE will be with you, ALWAYS
Not yet. As AT&T used to say, "You will".
This is a dangerous approach to take. If we actually need a 'National ID system' to solve a specific problem (many Americans are unconvinced) then it should be designed and implemented in such a way as to solve the problem at hand, with inherent safeguards to prevent abuse, now or in the future.
If we build a system that has the potential to be abused by individuals, by corporations, or by the state, then it will be abused.
As little trust I have in our current government, I have even less reason to trust in a future administration's response to future threats.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Okay, first of all, Cities facing terrorist threats: All of them. So what we should be afraid of is that just to enter any large city we'll have to show our ID. If they put a chip in them (like a fastpass) this doesn't even require slowing down much.
Gee, Schwarzy, you haven't lost any legal rights, but you've lost ability to get around them even if they are stupid. Making it harder to get around oppressive laws is the first action of a dictatorship seizing the reins. Also, your military ID is functionally just another state ID, except the information is even less readily available. It's not at all the same thing.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
In 5 years, they might prevent a repeat. Ask me how, I'm not sure.... Perhaps they will require them for courses on how to get a hazmat trucking license, pilot courses, purchasing massive quantities of fertilizer, purchasing biohazards, etc... And even this might not stop another attack, but it might make it a hell of a lot easier to trace the terrorists and their supporters.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
Does this sound like the first step in Big Brother to you?
First come the ID cards that are used nationally.
Then comes needing them to do ANYTHING, from buying a car, to making bank transactions.
Then something will happen and they will want to know where that person is at all times to "clear them of any crimes"
Next thing we know, it is needed to brush our teeth.
The whole concept of this sort of system is kinda scary.
Sure, they may be voluntary, but if you need them to verify who you are to open a bank account, or to buy stuff at the store, it quickly becomes a standardized mandatory thing.
As technology increases, they may have the ability to pinpoint your location at any time with GPS to those cards, and it may become ILLEGAL to leave the house without one.
Sooner or later "telescreens" will start monitoring you everywhere to make sure your "Voluntary ID card" is not lying or broken.
Then, they may begin implanting them at birth to save time and hassle.
The same thing happened with seat belts. Sure, they are a nice "security" precaution, but when they were introduced, they swore up and down that they will remain voluntary. Now, in my town, it is a 150$ fine to be not wearing it.
I am scared.
-blister
hrrm.
WOW, this blows my mind....
How stupid are these people. This is beyond disgusting. Don't they realize that ALL knowledgeable Christians will Reject this.
Boy , the end-times they are a coming FAST
Shit.
I will not submit to identity papers, my grandparents allowed tha to happen to them in the 30's and it lead directly to the yellow star on their clothes and a one way ticket to the gas chambers.
Nope. Not going to happen.
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
--Revelation 13,14
As long as people are allowed to leave the country, most things are voluntary...
No. Section 656 was taken out of law 2 years ago.
http://www.fairus.org/html/09179911.htm
now i wonder... will the cards come with james bond style poison darts so they can be used on terrorists in the event of an attack???
Why are you posting here, write your congress people and the president and vice president and anyone else .
Posting here, while amusing does not accomplish anything.
Please make your views known to your elected officals, whether you support or oppose this.
I married a US citizen, and immigrated into the US. The photo requirements for the immigration form were rigorous - must be against a white background, head turned so much to the left, head must be a specific size in the photo etc. I recall thinking when I saw this that the entire purpose of the requirements were to aid computer based facial recognition.
Then after a couple of months when I was called to get my green card, low and behold they wanted my fingerprints. Every green card has a thumbprint on it.
The scary thing is the medical that I had go through before entering the country. Anyone want to take bets as to whether the blood sample was sent to a DNA lab?
The worst thing is that with all of this, some retailers still wont accept it as proof of age or identity. It's like the most forgeproof piece of plastic I'v ever seen.
Here's a thought:
How about we give all the non-citizens the fuggin cards? They don't have any civil rights in the US anyway. So give them cards, and make them be tracked everywhere they go. Leave us good paranoid citizens alone.
-- Spankmeister General
On a Dvorak keyboard, the top row reads ',.pyfgcrl
This means that your left index finger does the p key, and your right index finger does the g key. That makes confusing p and g a rather easy mistake.
National ID Cards: New Technologies, Same Bad Idea
All good sammaritan crimminals, I have a *great* idea. Voluntarily submit pictures, fingerprints, and the sort to us for our database, so that if a crime is commited you get may get referrenced! Doesn't that sound like a good thing to be part of? Look at the benefits you get, Oh God this is good.
OR we could have all good, honest people submit their information, then we can refference them when a crime is commited and if we can't blame one of them, then we can blame anyone who didn't put their information in because it's obvious that they have something to hide!
...unless you, the people, fight like grim death against it.
Here in Australia we had a proposal for the `Australia Card' -- basically the same as this proposal, only not as technologically sophisticated. It was put to the people's vote (referendum or an election issue? I don't remember) and the people's response was to tell the proposers how to fold it into sharp corners, and where to stick it afterwards. That's Ok, though, because then they introduced the Tax File Number, which is a wannabe SSN -- you need it to earn an income (failure to provide a TFN is not illegal, but automatically results in you being taxed at 49.5%), to open a bank account, or just about anywhere else where you are using money in a non-trivial way.
The TFN was possible because we (the Australian population) had just fought furiously and won against a more draconian scheme, and were tired. Also, this almost slipped under the radar without comment, as the parliament rushed it through with very little debate, in the house or in public.
This may turn out to be another High Aim Tactic. Ask for something which is absolutely ridiculous, and let yourself be beaten back to what you wanted in the first place. Even if Ellison is serious (surely not...?) his overtures can -- and probably will -- be used by others with the same barrow to push.
The question is where to draw the line. How much freedom from surveillance do you want? Once you have figured that out, don't settle for one jot less! As soon as you rationalise that `I don't really need to be able to X' and bargain away the right to be able to do so, then you have just lost something precious which you will never get back.
Of course, things are rarely that simple, and some things are obviously stupid. (Such as, eg, `I demand the right to stockpile Anthrax spores'.) But the apparatchiks will use these examples to persuade you that the right to freely assemble, for example, is just too dangerous for you to have. It will not be put to you like that. It will be that some travel may have to be restricted, or that restrictions based on profiling [Hmm, you have travelled in the middle east, your family name is arabic, and you talk funny...] will be instituted `for the time being'.
If history teaches us anything, it is that `for the time being' can be translated `for the foreseeable future', and that just means `until it is no longer profitable to do so'.
Wasn't it a Founding Father who said `the Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance'?
"This is a Hollywood movie: when it comes to the Laws of Physics, they're lucky if they get Gravity!" --- my wife
It is really sad to see the leaders of this country jumping onto any idea any joker out there proposes, especially one who stands to gain much power with his offering.
...if this is some type of way for Oracle/Sun to head off part of Passport's raison d'etre. With a national ID card registry, building services on top of that database would be easier than building against a proprietary .Net architecture.
I really don't like this idea, let me get that out here first. However, i do see some strong points to this, IF the government/industries don't abuse it. ``Four Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if they have the cards and can just slash them through card readers,'' he said. Yes, i could see that happening. I can also see that people are still going to be wary. Nothing changes. But now, what does that card really tell you? That this is john doe and you can be REALLY sure of that? I never saw anything that would include a psychological profile and a detailed history of my life!
Also, i have a feeling many of us are subject to that kind of thing now. At least in our school, and some other ones i know of, you are required to carry your ID on you at all times. If you dont, they can put you in detention, however their logic works. We used to have to freakin wear them! So many of us coming from school, or othr jobs where we have to do this are used to this kind of thing.
I guess this could be benificial too. Gives me less stuff to carry in my wallet. One less thing to lose. BUT, if i do lose it im screwed royally basically and i dont want anyone being able to see all my personal info!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&o
There will be revolution if this were to pass.
I don't think any freedom loving American would so willingly give up their liberties.
The World is Yours.
I personally think they should remove both of Larry Ellisons testicles and implant GPS devices so that the govt. can better protect him by knowing where he is. Let's face it Franklin said it best " Those that would give up Freedom for Security deserver neither" Actually that qoute is often see with several variations and sometimes accredited Thomas Jefferson. All I am certain of is that there is a lot of truth it.
Enough is enough already let's face it, living is dangerous and no matter what you do you can't get around it. Let's at least do it with a bit of dignity and a lot of freedom. Why should we change the very best thing going because of some fanatical backwards terrorists that would like nothing better than for us to all give up our freedom for fear of them.
I for one am now going to run not walk away from Oracle. MySQL and PostgreSQl for from now on...
Eric C Williams E-Builders, LLC
Has anyone read the FAQ on ID Cards?
d _faq.html
http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/idcar
i agree. wait til cash is illegal, too.
i always figured i'd hold out as long as possible, until the world convinced me it could not escape the future foreseen by so many cyberpunk authors.
9/11 was the day i stopped waiting
Click for Larry's Card
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
And a few more years later, we'll be able to get rid of the state driver's license completely. Everything will key off that card.
What a glorious world of trust and freedom it will be! Police officers able to examine your entire history in seconds. Just great. Of course, you do trust your police, right? And your local county clerk's office, too? I mean, this information could never be abused, could it?
Sure, I'm paranoid. Rabidly anti-government. Hater of all authority. Yep, sure thing, that's me, feel free to write off what I say as kookiness. But at least THINK about it, would you? Thanks.
"Avast! Prepare for the rodgering!" THWACK! "Arrr.. me nards.."
Yeah, because nobody wants to get involved.
Because shitdot refuses to push the teen hippies in a direction other than towards the legos.
Becuase nobody will go here to learn the truth.
They won't even go here where they can fax, e-mail and write letters to their "reprsentatives".
Enjoy the prison your apathy has bought.
Okay, now think about this. If it ident'ed your fingerprint, wouldn't it be more secure to send _YOUR_ fingerprint to a central server and auth you there, right? If it didn't, you'd be able to steal a card and get a copy of the fingerprint as well. No good.
So What if I was messing with my case mods the night before my trip to [where ever] and I burn part of my thumbs using a iron (or even that hot glue gun!). So now I don't authenticate. What happens to me then? I can't get on the plane? Even if my picture and eye color match up? Who draws the lines?
I heard say that every card came with 40 acre's and mule.
Saw something interesting at http://www.freshfront.com
Absolutely.
and..
Yeah, because nobody wants to get involved.
Because shitdot refuses to push the teen hippies in a direction other than towards the legos.
Becuase nobody will go here to learn the truth.
They won't even go here where they can fax, e-mail and write letters to their "reprsentatives".
Enjoy the prison your appathy has bought.
The actual text of the Income Tax Act actually stipulates that payment of Income Tax is on a 'voluntary' basis.
WHta they don't do, of course, is define what 'voluntary' means.
It appears the normal interpretation means 'you are suppoed to file your taxes on your own.. if you don't, we'll do it for you'. ie: voluntary. I think that's wrong, though.
Secondly.. the Income Tax Act never received Royal Assent.. yet somehow it's considered law. To become law, a bill MUST have royal assent (signed by the Gov' General, ie: the Queen)
Thirdly.. the income tax act was supposd to be a temporary measure.
It seems like Ellison wants this to be kept in an Oracle DB, doesn't anyone know that MySQL is the only app up to the task!!!!?!?
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
And since the at least one Supreme (Santra Day O'Connor) has indicated that "some freedoms will be lost" (or something like that); who's to say how things work out? After all, as a practical matter, the Constitution says whatever the Supremes say it says. Not what a plain common-sense reading of that document might say (this was already the case even before this new bill).
Right now, many of our elites (media, goverment, business) are scared shitless (in fact, more scared than the rest of us, since they have been explicitly targeted). They don't care about any damage to the fabric of our freedoms, they just want to be "safe".
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
An esoteric scratched itch:
Homeworld Map Maker Tool
Have a drivers license? Registered to vote? Registered for the draft? I rest my case. Whats one more little card we have to carry around going to matter?
Okay, what parts of the world produce the best expertise in fake IDs? Where is the best market for them? Do products follow their markets? How much can someone on the inside make for inserting a few dozen fake records? How much was bin Laden able to afford for pilot training?
Yup, those four guys ahead of you just zipped onto the plane because their cards were clear ... feel safe now?
Or would you rather have a system where trained government agents use their human intelligence to sort out who is suspicious? Idealism about "no racial profiling" is lovely. But you're about to get on that plane ...
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
``Wouldn't you feel better if everyone who walked into an airport showed their ID card and put their thumb in the scanner and you knew they were who they said they were?''
Where in the hell did this asinine premise that perps will behave as long as they've been positively identified come about?
Well, no. As it happens, the perps who attacked the WTC were NOT travelling incognito. As it happens, I *have* travelled under someone else's name in order to use a return ticket that they didn't need, which was no skin off anyone's nose, and certainly didn't present a danger to my fellow passengers.
If someone is willing to commit suicide, what in the world makes Ellison imagine that he can be deterred by having his name in a database?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
A man is on a train, reading his paper, sipping his coffee. A uniformed man with a gun and badge approaches him.
"ID card please."
"Excuse me, sir?"
"Your ID card please," he repeats with an gleam in his eye.
"I..I.. I think it's in my wallet, hold on." Man fumbles with his wallet as the uniformed man caresses the butt of his weapon.
"Ah, yes, this is it." The man hands it over tot he uniformed man, who checks it over.
"Where are you going, sir?"
"Well, I don't see how that's any of your business-"
"EVERYTHING is my business, sir. I'm trying to protect America from terrorists. So, WHERE are you going?"
"Why, that's preposterous! I don't have to answer that! Ever since Black Tuesday, our freedoms have been taken from us! Why, we used to never have to have our ID cards and an approval stamp to travel across the state!"
"That's enough of that!" Uniformed man blows his whistle and pulls out his gun.
"No, people, can't you understand! Help me! Help yourselves! We're being taken over by fascists! Help--"
The man falls limp. The Uniformed man wipes the butt of his weapon ont he man's shirt, after having used it as a club. The other people in the car pretend not to see anything.
"Yes sir, God Bless America. These terrorists are just like Pokemon, gotta catch em all."
Another uniformed man is going through the man's luggage.
"Hey, Joe, look at this. His laptop runs Linux. Yep, he's a terrorist all right."
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Just like Hitler, who ordered new IDs (called "Papiere," meaning "papers") to "safeguard" Nazi Germany. Sure, it made for a safe place, but at quite a high price. It surprises me that Oracle and Sun endorse this (I quite like McNealy), but I guess they would profit the most. Wow, those terrorists sure have won....
People lose cards. Someone should suggest to Ascroft that the thing to do is require everyone to have an ID number tattooed on at birth -- say on the inside of the right forearm. Something tells me he'd like the idea very, very much.
namaste-
We've already had ex post fact laws passed and *enforced* in this country, so don't imagine that just because the constitution prohibits them, that it won't happen.
For another example of blatant disregard for the Constitution, have a look at the "Gold and Silver" clause.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm concerned about the vast information available to authorities ALREADY at the local level without tapping the ridiculous amount of potentially derogatory or negatively influential information available to federal agencies.
This issue comes up again and again when police officers are asked to consider criminal records when taking actions for otherwise minor infractions. This scares me on Orwellian levels. How can anyone expect fair treatment from authorities when now the federal government can be expected to constantly track their movements? What kind of information do local authorities really need to be able to tap in to? Racial profiling was bad, eh? Try criminal profiling. The answer isn't "if you aren't doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about." The probative value of having a federally-endorsed NATIONAL database of citizens including all types of unspecified information is FAR outweighed by the potential negative impact on the common citizen. Filing "suspicions" of criminal involvement in a database that you have no right to view is pretty fuckin scary, if you ask me.
``Four Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if they have the cards and can just slash them through card readers,'' [Harvard lawyer Dershowitz] said.
Which raises the question - how hard would these things be to hack? Is it just a magnetic strip that has this information, or maybe a flash chip like on the Smart Visa cards? So if I lose my wallet I might as well be some "Arab-looking guy reading the Koran." And what kind of comment is that anyway? Is it a crime to be "Arab-looking" and read the Koran?
This whole idea is so stupid and sick that I think I'm going to have a stroke.
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
Tell that to everyone who doesn't have access to music from the twenties, thirties, and forties, because they retroactively changed the term of copyright.
The lawyers make the claim (I will not call it "Jesuitical" because they do not deserve that kind of insult) that the prohibition of "ex post facto" only applies to criminal law. Somehow they're inventing extra words I can't find in the Constitution.
According to them, as long as they don't make it a criminal offense, it's perfectly OK if they impose a ten million dollar excise tax on your behavior, ten years after the fact.
We once had a Constitutional republic, a government of laws not of men. Now we have a tyranny of lawyer-politicians.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
"If we actually need a 'National ID system' to solve a specific problem (many Americans are unconvinced) then it should be designed and implemented in such a way as to solve the problem at hand, with inherent safeguards to prevent abuse, now or in the future."
We didn't have a problem with people hijacking airplanes and flying them into buildings. So we didn't design a system to prevent it. So that when it happened we were completely unprepared and once they were on board the plane there was nothing to prevent them.
Saying that there's no specific problem leaves us vulnerable to terrorists who think of new methods to destroy us.
"If we build a system that has the potential to be abused by individuals, by corporations, or by the state, then it will be abused."
Which is the argument that we should have no laws, no government, no institutions, no schools, no roads, etc...
And nothing ever gets done.
Sweat
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
However, if you've got the raw data, and our government does, constructing such a system is so simple, I can't help but conclude it's inevitable. It's going to happen.
I have to agree. The data is already out there. As another poster has
already pointed out, we really didn't need new information in order
to flag the 9/11 terrorists; we just needed to put 2+2 together
using a system that could look these guys up.
The idea that a centralized system could help them do just that has
enough appeal to some people (esp. those in power) that they WILL
do this. We need to come up with a way to make it as non-abusive
as possible.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
I propose a Larry Ellison 24/7 webcam site along with a detailed online biography of him, including all his health, family, financial data along with his criminal record, the whole works. This guy should be watched very carefully.
I'm pretty sure that anyone who advocates a national ID card can't be classified as civil libertarians. Good God.
My specialty is driver's license privacy, so I spend quite a lot fo time thinking about this issue.
Here's a weird contradiction.
I go into my local DMV with a birth certificate and SSN card (which was originally obtained with my birth certificate...so basically I'm going in with a birth certificate and something that back that document up.)
I claim that the birth certificate and the SSN card I have correlates to a JimBobJoe born on date X at place Y, and that I am that JimBobJoe.
Without any evidence to the contrary, my claim is believed. Therefore, I am considered innocent (my claim is truthful) as opposed to being guilty (my claim is not truthful...since they have no way (mostly) of verifying my identity.) Hmm...what an interesting concept this presumed innnocence before guilt.
Then...I am given a photographic ID document whose main purpose is to allow people to question who I claim to be--forcing me to prove who i am(presumed guilt before innocence.)
So, I am trusted to be who I say I am in order to get a document so people can not trust me to be who I say I am.
Like a lot of government programs, the photo driver's license is incapable of solving the problem that didn't exist until it was created.
The photo driver's license is a remarkable achievement--finally Americans everywhere had identities which could be easily stolen.
There should be people digging through his trash, too.
Im sorry for having to start with this, but: WTF are you talking about?
What does the "age" of a culture have to do with the ignorance of its citizens? also i have to say that: Germany actually lags behind 5-10 years in comparison to the US, which means that recent developements in the US of A "reach" Germany just about said amount of time later.
example: the liberation of the telcomm-market or for instance the "i dont care, i just take this pill and everything will be right" issue that was recently in the major US press, TV etc. ("prozac", "ritalin" and "viagra" just to name a few)
now, i dont want to say that everything the US government does is good, i think right now you and ultimately the world population is moving towards a Gattaca-like scenario, where a strand of hair or a piece of skin can actually destroy your life if left in the wrong place. And i am fairly afraid of that.
But: first, there are ways to F** you up completely even without knowing your DNA fingerprint etc. (anyone tried living without a SSN in the us?)
second: what tradeoffs are you going to make for your privacy? if you make life inconvenient for the Large companies like Oracle, Philipp morris etc. they'll just go "we think the price for our product should actually be in the 7 figure region instead of 6, dont you agree?"
with all the lobbyism in the world, these companies are effectively ruling us RIGHT NOW , even if you tear down the government in a revolution, wouldnt the new one be as easily convinced to do what someone with 2 Megabucks in his account says, instead of doing what joe "im poor" public would have the most benefit off?
the only REAL solution is to actually go living in a place nobody knows, probably a remote island. no electricity, no communication, no beer, no caffeine, no nothing nichts nada nil. well, go figure what 99.9 % of all "free" citizens will do.
as a last remark id like to say, that Germany is NOT a big forced labour camp where jews are shot on sight. some of you might have actually helped in achieving this, although i doubt much of the contributers to THIS thread did... or would have.
Germany is actually a nice country to live in, and with all those crazy lawsuits going on over there in the US im pretty happy NOT to be living there. here i can actually talk to a woman even if its IN MY OFFICE , and not be afraid she might sue me for 1 mio $ the next day.
LAWS do not make a country evil, its the level of education of its citizens. and i think america is not quite considerable as "good" by that measurement. but convince me of the opposite if you disagree, i am not ignorant of other people's opinions.
thanks for listening.
- Tim
...they hate the competition.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Two consecutive paragraphs, from the article...
Taking another approach, Harvard lawyer Dershowitz said he
believes having an ID card would reduce racial profiling
at airports.
Well, if that were true, reducing racial profiling might be a nice
side-effect, but certainly wouldn't justify the card. But it's certainly
not established to be true.
Let's read on; what's the very next paragraph say?
``Four Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much
less suspicious if they have the cards and can just slash them through
card readers,'' he said.
Arab-looking? Reading the Koran? Um, sure, yeah, I see. No hypocrisy
there, not at all.
Where do they get off thinking we are this dumb?
Huh? Huh? Can I?
...on second thought high slashdot karma might be considered an indicator of reactionary thinking and be an indicator of a propensity to commit acts of "terrorism" (such as stealing MP3's or DoSing RIAA).
BTW Brad Templeton's sample Larry Ellison card has his mother's maiden name as (unwed)...does that mean he's a bastard in more ways than just his attitude?
You're using her as bait, Master!
What am I missing here?
What is the point in this proposal? Is it to make the country more secure against illegal aliens that might be dormant terrorists? Is it to prevent criminals from usurping other people's ID?
If these are indeed the goals, then I'd suggest to take a look at developed countries that already have implemented nation-wide ID cards. Namely, Europe. Why, it's fascinating.
Because you see, illegal immigration is totally out of control in Europe. As for terrorism, Spain (Basque Separatist movements), France (Corsican Separatists, Basques, Muslims), UK (IRA), as well as Greece, Italy and Germany have had severe terrorist attacks in the 1990s in spite of strict ID card policies.
How come these countries can harbor terrorists in spite of mandatory ID cards, you ask? It's because ID cards are not a silver bullet against crime. First, they can be forged. Always. France recently replaced its obsolete ID card with an embossed, hologramed, specially printed ID card, the deployment of which was a very expensive program. All this achieved was to raise the cost of a fake ID to about 5000FF ($600-700) on the black market. The best forgeries come of course from corrupt officials who fabricated cards with fake IDs using the state-approved machines.
So unless you have totally non-corrupt officials, all you're going to achieve is put terrorism out of reach of poor students. That's a tempting solution considering what is said in some literature circles after a few vodkas. But I don't think it will be the best one.
Look at Europe, for Heaven's sake, because they already did all the stupid things before us!
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
As I stated last time this subject appeared, why even mess with a card? Why not keep a database of eveyones DNA and just use genetic IDing. A pinprick, sequencing, and comparison against a DB ala Gataca. I think the technology exists to do this.
Scary no?
-Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?
*The same thing we do everynight Pinky, TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
-Narf
Fly Fish? Participate in our forum
Registration Required* * *
An optional national identity card could be used in a similar way, offering a similar kind of tradeoff: a little less anonymity for a lot more security. Anyone who had the card could be allowed to pass through airports or building security more expeditiously, and anyone who opted out could be examined much more closely.
As a civil libertarian, I am instinctively skeptical of such tradeoffs. But I support a national identity card with a chip that can match the holder's fingerprint. It could be an effective tool for preventing terrorism, reducing the need for other law-enforcement mechanisms ? especially racial and ethnic profiling ? that pose even greater dangers to civil liberties.
* * *
Finally, there is the question of the right to anonymity. I don't believe we can afford to recognize such a right in this age of terrorism. No such right is hinted at in the Constitution. And though the Supreme Court has identified a right to privacy, privacy and anonymity are not the same. American taxpayers, voters and drivers long ago gave up any right of anonymity without loss of our right to engage in lawful conduct within zones of privacy. Rights are a function of experience, and our recent experiences teach that it is far too easy to be anonymous ? even to create a false identity ? in this large and decentralized country. A national ID card would not prevent all threats of terrorism, but it would make it more difficult for potential terrorists to hide in open view, as many of the Sept. 11 hijackers apparently managed to do.
* * *
From a civil liberties perspective, I prefer a system that takes a little bit of freedom from all to one that takes a great deal of freedom and dignity from the few ? especially since those few are usually from a racially or ethnically disfavored group. A national ID card would be much more effective in preventing terrorism than profiling millions of men simply because of their appearance.
* * *
Now what I want to know is: What do all of the hot heads spouting off on this site know about civil rights and constitutional law that Mr. Dershowitz does not know?
I submitted this story long before this one got posted, it was denied in about 5 seconds, what's up with that? The only difference was that I wasn't slamming the idea of a voluntary national ID card (because it doesn't bother me, since privacy is a myth). I was concerned about the fact that although Larry Ellison was offering Oracle software for free, the government would still have to pay for upgrades and maintenance. Quote "I don't think the government has any trouble paying for the labor associated with the software." Beware of geeks bearing gifts, as they say...
But I guess if you aren't a knee-jerk libertarian on the right stories you don't get posted. It's hardly news to say it, but slashdot is definitely biased. It ain't just the stories, it's the stories you choose to run...
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
Correction: Germany is "supposed" to be free. Germany is not a police state.
Thankyouverymuch.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
... Aghanistan begins to sound like the land of the free.
That'd be a plus, especially for the afternoon commute (and other times),like when that asshole cuts you off, then immediately jams on his brakes and signals a left turn (-1) or that idiot that forgot to turn off his cell phone before coming into the theatre (-2) or...
You're using her as bait, Master!
How about modding something a flamebait correctly for once?
Now there's a frood who knows where his towel is.
Interesting to read all the stuff he's done.
Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, ybt bss abj. Tb bhgfvqr. Syl n xvgr.
Check out the bottom right hand picture on htat ID Card. What is that? It looks like a testicle!
... can anyone say 'mark of the beast'?
Also I bet there will be a double-standard. How many of the proponents will have to have their lives held sway by this system. Congress already has many exemptions from the rules they make, and the rich can buy their way out from under them.
The ordinary man as usual would not only get the short end of the stick, but would also be sold the idea that (s)he should be happy that this is happening.
As far as foreigners there is already talk about making things much tougher there. I wonder what is the long term effect of that considering that the only truly native people are Indians.
Does this mean I will be arrested for parking?
So.. Enter the America of the ID card. Your card and thumbprint are checked everywhere. It is quick and nearly painless for those who have nothing to hide.
But what about the folks with too many parking tickets?
Will he get detained at a McDonalds checkpoint after forgetting to pay the Photo radar speeding ticket he got in the mail?
And in this land of paranoia, what of the FALSE REPORT? What about the guy on Ebay who keeps screwing you over by reporting that you support terrorists and launder the money through Ebay??
And since we just about have the technology, how about they include a GPS in the card's design. So whenever you check in, it reports out the coordinates of where you have been *AT ALL TIMES*. But again, you have nothing to hide, right?
Anyone ever see the movie Brazil?
It seems like the earlier ebay fraud story is exactly the sort of thing that national id card would be handy for, even if it were voluntary
The problem with ebay transactions is that it is hard to be sure of the identity of the other party. It would be great to read an ebay ad that included the URL for the seller's national id, so you really knew who you were dealing with. Of course they could still find a way to lie, but we could make the lying more expensive.
Privacy has benefits, but costs as well. Sometimes a little transparency is just the thing.
Truth never damages a cause that is just -- Mohandas Gandhi
"Note: Suggesting appeasement of fundamentalist Muslim demands earns you no points. Let's hear some real ideas."
Maybe the reason he made this a non-option is that this is the hardest track of all. Making a national database of all citizens by comparison on one level is easy. Understanding the situation with the muslims is hard. How did the situation arise? What role did all the participents play?
What actions (if any) can be taken to, if not make everyone happy. At least the majority. Now here's a non-option for you. One can't use any knee-jerk, haven't thought it all the way thru arguments in reply to this post.
During the Vietnam War era, protesters burned draft cards...and I think that if this ridiculuous measure ever becomes implemented in this country, I know exactly what will happen to my card. :)
To sweeten the pot, maybe our enlightened leader will have a draft, too, so then I can save on matches and burn both cards at once.
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
What is the reaction of the WWII-era Jews to the whole United States political climate post-September 11?
How does one equate the proposal of a national database comprised of information already available at the state level with allowing searches of a person and/or his property without a warrant?
Seriously, I do not see why the national ID card is so objectionable.
I also do not see how it would help either.
Sure stopped this lot.
(don't speak german so tough withh the spelling)
remember waco, and always remember when the jack booted thugs come AIM FOR THE HEAD, they will be wearing armor
...the card has geekcode
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
now everyone is starting to feel how us "gun loving freaks" have felt all along about people like Gore, Clinton, and others from that crack sorority, with trying to impose rules that will only affect the innocent and truly stupid. Who in their right mind would jump n uch a bandwagon w/o being forced? Does Ellison and Ashcroft remember Hitler? Have they ever read about themselves in the book of Revelation?
You bet I got one of those Safeway cards, and in exchange, Safeway got a fictious address and birthdate.
I trust Ellison and McNealy even less than the governing body of US... Not only and merely because of their selfish and narrow corporate interest - read that as not mine and certaily not the interests of general humanity (other than the fact that we are all simply a consumer base to be exploited); but I don't trust their damned computing hardware and database software to be able to keep crunching day after day. What happens during an "upgrade" or a "patch"? What happens if something craps out... (I am assuming that the tracking aspect of this card will be fully exploited here) You won't be able to get on your plane. You can't buy that CD. You can't get your paycheck. You can't get into that ballpark or concert [insert your favorite public venue]... And before you give me the crap about "What about redundancy..." and "What about clustering and mirroring" Yeah, as if that shit is working really well today...
To maximize the usefulness of the National ID card it pretty clear it should have a smart chip embedded. That way airport security / police officers / DMV / IRS agents / toll booths / librarians can simply wave your ID cards over a reader to automatically access any personal data they think might useful. If it is decided that you are a hijacker / criminal / overdue parking tickets / toll dodger / overdue books then that duely authorized government representative can immediate update the data on your ID card to appropriately deny you the right to access the relevant services.
As an interactive digital device, all ID cards will naturally be required to include RIAA/MPAA approved Digital Rights Management Technology.
3 months later...
Heay - wait a minute! When did all of my CD's, my walkman, library withdrawals, video rentals, fax, copier, camcorder, cell phone, and my computer operating system become keyed to my ID card?
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
It's the sound of the American far right. They're shooting target practice. Maybe Bin Laden was right--we will create more Usamas. It's just that we won't create them in the Middle East. We will create them in our own back yard. Anybody wanna go into the mountains of Wyoming, Idaho, Montanna, and West Virginia to fingerprint them Bible-believin', gun-toten, God-fearen' good-ol boys and give them a number so that they "may neither buy nor sell"? Volunteers? Janet Reno? Anybody?
Maybe some wealthy Saudis will end up funding our mujahidin. Yes!!! Now it all makes sense. Their plan is for that to happen, so that the Arabs can experience "blow-back". Wow! It's pure genius. Carry on, fellas.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
If you're innocent you have nothing to hide. Okay
all you haxors start going through ellisons files,
he's got nothing to hide. Except perhaps the actual reason he wants this card in everybodies back pocket. Law abiding citizens don't need this, maybe paroled felons and the like.
one nut job meets another
Ultimately, support for this thing will not be that big a moneymaker. If it is, the government will just legislate a spending cap on it, and force them to give them support, or bend over.
And finally, we only need to make sure that the data is never available to people who aren't supposed to have it. That includes Ellison, or whatever powers that be. Forces inside the government will abuse it, but it will hardly make things easier for them. You don't think the people who actually have power can't search every database of note in the nation at once? I can search ten databases for records of property ownership, various SSN hits, bankruptcies, liens, and various professional accreditations, and I'm just some choad off the street.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You have a point, but so did my message, thus my message was not flamebait.
Actually, one person wasted their modpoint by modding the post down as 'flamebait' where they would have been better served by modding your comment up.
The situation friday2k describes sure sounds like a police state to me: (emphasis mine)
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
In the works of Robert Heinlein, "When a society reaches the point where it requires an ID card of all its citizens, it's time to find a new planet."
Damnit! We need another planet!
Reboot macht Frei.
Looks like Diane Fienstein's name is getting mentioned frequently as a proponent of these big brother tactics. i didn't know she was a closet fascist. geez, and i voted for her twice. Never again.
Are these going to be smart cards with chips in them? If they are then I'm gonna hack mine and run Linux on it.
SSN is not exactly voluntary-- you are supposed to get one if you are a citizen.
Absolutly false. There is NO LAW requiring someone to get a SSN, and many people do no have them based on religous objection. You can read two Social Security Adminstration letters stating this here and here. (PDF's) If you research the law behind the letters you see what they claim about the I.R.C. is misleading. A common practice by the government.
However try to do anything without receiving this mark of the beast. Our lives are a that of second class citizens. I assure you, tell someone up don't have a SSN and you will be delt scowes of hatered and discriminated against extensivly.
National ID is already here in the form of the drivers licence linked to the social security number. With the formal acceptance of it in name by the populus, life in the US for anyone not willing to accept the position of a government slave will be unbearable, and infact, deadly.
"I think 99.99 percent of Americans will want these ID cards," Ellison said. "Wouldn't you feel better if everyone who walked into an airport showed their ID card and put their thumb in the scanner and you knew they were who they said they were?"
No. I would feel exactly the same. How is knowing the true identity of a person going to guarantee you that they're not a suicide terrorist? It doesn't. I don't really appreciate it when a multi-billionaire with vested interests tries to guess what me, Mr. Joe Schmoe, wants. Hell, if Ellison manufactured door locks, he'd probably lobby to get door locks for all the cockpits. That I might support.
"There has to be some ID," Feinstein said. "We have had a major catastrophe. This is a very serious time. The country is at war. The purpose here is to protect ourselves."
I don't know if Swine-stein could have made any less sense. How does being at war, seriousness of the times, or need for protection equal a need for identification? One, we aren't at war. Two, today is no less/more serious than two years ago. Three, who needs protection, Members of Congress? I don't feel any need to be protected.
Maybe we should lock all members of Congress into an air tight room for their safety. When they start kicking off, we would hold elections. You solve a lot of problems that way. You get term limits, you ensure that only the most dedicated people run, and you don't have goofballs like Swine-stein making assinine proposals because she's scared of the bogeyman.
Rotenberg and other opponents, including the American Civil Liberties Union, worry it could be required to board buses, apply for jobs, or even enter cities facing terrorist threats.
But supporters say those concerns are overblown.
Yes. Corporations and the government have never abused the power that we relinquished to them. Never ever.
"I've had a military ID card since I was a cadet at West Point and I haven't lost any freedom," [Schwarzkopf] told a cheering crowd.
Right. And I suppose being in the military wasn't a restriction of freedom. You're the property of the United States, and you get to be an unwitting guinea pig for exciting new drugs like LSD and who knows what else. And of course people cheered. Who could boo the Gerber baby?
"Four Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if they have the cards and can just slash them through card readers," [Dershowitz] said.
Four arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if you get your head out of your ass and realize that the arab-terrorist to arab-non-terrorist ratio is extremely low. If the average American would talk to more than the 3 people he sees at the water cooler everyday, he might realize that there's a whole world of non-threatening people out there.
Ellison said that if he does donate the software, maintenance and upgrades won't be free.
I'll give you some crack, but I won't support your habit. Thanks. Now I don't have to buy anything from Oracle anymore. Makes my life simpler.
In vaguely related news , don't bother mailing your Congressman about this as he's not going to open it anyway. He'll either get 'Net-savvy or just ignore his constituents (as usual).
Ack! Thppt!
Sheeeesh. I'm sure I'll get marked as redundant or flameboat or whatever (wouldn't be the first time :-). But... I can't believe, espeically in the fact of all the evil going on in the world these days, that people would be against something that voluntarily helps *prove* who they really are, considering it an invasion of privacy. If people are honestly going about their business, obeying the laws of the country of which they agree to be a citizen, that they assume any identification tool will be used by "big brother" to invade their privacy.
If you want to be afraid, don't be afraid of your government, but be afraid of the likes of Microsoft's corporate strategies to eliminate competition. Having been a hard-core low-level developer in the olden days, and a consumer the whole time since, it's comical how often they do seriously anti-competitive things, and the government doesn't even understand or care about (or will willingly ignore, given the huge donations each year from M$). But instead, people are freaking out about a *voluntary* identification mechanism. Sigh. Maybe there isn't hope for this race after all...
-me
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
...this sytem would run on a Sun platform running and Oracle database. Now thats a pretty hip way of proping up your business....
How droll.
--- I was far from home, and the spell of the Eastern sea was upon me. -Lovecraft-
Hey,
Donate... US$20 is nothing and if 5000 people do it thats 100large.
So we have heard this before, McNealy does not believe in privacy. I was tempted to stand up and ask him "How many abortions has your wife had?". He things his Java powered National ID card will make him safe from terrorists. Well Scott when the terrorist has no criminal history and perfectly passes a background check and still decides to die in order to further his cause, how safe will you feel then? McNealy spent the rest of his talk explaining monopolies and why Microsoft is evil and must be stopped. Some /. readers buy into the whole legitimacy of antitrust law. That is an argument for another time. Don't for a minute buy into the idea that Scott McNealy believes in antitrust law, it is merely a weapon against his rival Microsoft. A good question for Scott, "Since Intellectual Property Laws grant Microsoft monopoly power over their software, would you support the repeal of all such laws?" I think the answer would be interesting.
Stuart Eichert
Thailand National ID System
He justs wants to sell Java cards.
Stuart Eichert
How about this. Since everybody in every country has to have a passport to travel anywhere, and each passport contains a picture of the person. Why not connect all the countries together, so that when you go through customs and they check your passport number, it downloads from your home country database only your picture name and other details which is already inside your passport.
This way each country is made responsible for illegal passports.
Yes, even if dumb politicians can't agree to it, I'm sure they can start by eg. between EU and USA and slowly force other countries to do the same.
I think this will be more helpful than a national id system.
Feinstein needs to be recalled. I simply can't see how she is actually complying with her Oath to Protect and Defend the Constitution of The United States Of America.
Pick any of about 4 ammendments and she's complicant in violating them...
Then again, she's a friggin bitch so I'm not surprised...
Schwarzkopf - dude - you were in the Army, think you're still in the Army. Stop sniffin the agent orange and wake up - the PEOPLE are your bosses and WE will not be tracked, profiled, or treated like criminals.
Dershkowitz - just move. Pick an island and move. We're sick of your bullshit. We know you're a money grubbing lawyer who defends murderers, and you took a payoff from these two freedom whores... They're using you as the guy to put a good spin on this worthless crap... Just leave in shame...
To anyone out there who thinks they have a right to know what I'm doing, who I'm doing it with, when I'm doing it, why I'm doing it (replace "doing it" with "buy" if it suits you) - I challenge YOU to tell ME WHY YOU think you have a right to this data. Why do you need it? What are you going to do with it? Will you assume absolute strict liability if it's abused, stolen, or used against me?
This wouldn't have stopped the terrorists - THEY'RE LIVING AMONG US PEOPLE! This is crap that's been pushed as an agenda among Feinstein and her merry band of New World Order pigs for years and now that they see an opportunity to get the nose of their camel under the tent, we need to WHACK THAT CAMEL'S NOSE HARD with a 50 lb sledge to keep it the hell out!
Petition to recall every one of these swine. Stop buying Oracle's garbage - tell them why you think this is a thinly veiled marketing ploy. File suit to have Schwartzkopf dishonorably discharged for promoting this shit...
For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.
I think people are missing a major point here:
A NATIONAL ID CARD SYSTEM WOULD NOT HAVE PREVENTED THE ACTS OF SEPTEMBER 11th!
The men who hijacked those planes were not regular street gangsters who decided one weekend to take out the World Trade Center. They had been planning this attack for YEARS. And according to all the news reports I've seen on the subject, all of these men presented VALID ID when boarding the plane.
A national ID card system adds another layer to our current justice method: deterrence of crimes based on future repercussions. In a police state, you don't have many opportunities to commite a crime, because you are always being watched and everything suspicious is reported and investigated. In our current system, the main deterring factor is fear of getting found out later and having to stand trial and pay the consequences for your actions.
Here's main point: SUICIDE BOMBERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT FUTURE REPERCUSSIONS! These men either came over here with the goal of committing this attack, or they were already living here and recruited quite a while ago. Under the national ID system, they would have all had valid IDs! All they would have to do to be able to board the planes was not commit other crimes prior to the main event. They would not give half a damn about whether 'the authorities' knew that the info on the ID card they held matched them. Knowing who someone is definitively does not tell you whether their motive is to fly across the country to see grandma, or to kill 50,000 people. And they probably would have had an easier time getting their little butterknives on board by having a 'voluntary' ID card; the authorities would know they weren't a threat because they've already shown their picture ID... Leaves them more time to thoroughly inspect and harass those damn libertarians who keep complaining about 'civil rights'.
And I don't think that having a national ID system would have contributed much to speeding up who was responsible for future attacks. In a few days they had already determined, how many hijackers were directly involved, the names of half of them, who probably was the coordinator of the plan, where they got some of their training, who provided the funding for it, and what country that founder was located in, and the names and locations of hundreds of other people involved and in custody, all without any citizen database.
When you simplify it down to basic logic, what they're doing makes no sense. "Event A happened, and that was very bad. To prevent A from happening again, we are going to implement Action B. Action B wouldn't have prevented Event A, but would have prevented Event C."
-Orius_Khan
-----
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.
I see all these "Bush looks like a Chimp" pages, but looking at that faked up card (which is IMHO quite funny) makes me realize just how much dear old Larry looks like one.
Let's see some "Larry Ellison... or CHIMP?" pages, people!
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
Being an American, let me tell you why.
We are used to more freedom than the rest of the world. Unlike Germany, our country did not try to conquer the world and start the largest war in human history, all because a bunch of idiots all started following one charismatic lunatic genius. Therefore American leaders traditionally trust citizens more than German leaders. However, every time we give our leaders an inch of leeway with our freedoms, they take several inches we did not give them, and it usually does not work out in the people's favor.
It also does not help that our government has very bad history in terms of corruption. Our political system allows our leaders to take huge amounts of money to campaign with, most of which comes from large corporations and rich people. In return, those politicians spend their terms chasing after more money while their staff write laws that favor corporations and rich people, and screw everyone else.
American police also do not help any. Because of the huge number of guns in America, and a tendency among many people to support police actions of any sort, many of our police departments (See recent exposes on local police brutality by any newspaper put out in Los Angeles, New York, or Washington D.C..) abuse that power and do some really horrible things, and the good officers feel a duty to not get rid of the bad ones. While the system is great for people who do not break the law, we are often afraid to give our police too much power, lest they stop just arresting and beating black males and start going after everyone else, too. If police could randomly stop people to check ID cards, it could get pretty nasty.
Americans do not want to live somewhere like Germany or Israel. For the most part, we are a nation of peaceful people who work hard and keep out of trouble. We do not want to end up being watched, going through checkpoint, and carrying ID cards. Part of the reason the terrorists target us is because they cannot understand how wonderful freedom is, and thus fear it. For us to give up any freedom because of this is disgusting, wrong, and in our culture, essentially immoral.
What did you expect? It seems that all of the "intellectuals" in America are either ignorant about history, or worse, know full well about what has happened in the past, and somehow delude themselves (And hence, much of America) into believing that "This time it'll be different. We've learned from this mistake" -- and then go and make the same mistake, the same way.
And what's worse, is an even larger number of people in America don't even bother to learn history, believing it to be completely irrelevant to their lives. So, they trust these people on TV (Whether some so-called intellectual, or the reporter) because they must know what they're talking about, they don't interview the clueless. So they are led like sheep-- straight into a mistake centuries old, known and documented.
I truly do pity people who somehow believe that 'humanity has evolved' since then. The only thing that's changed is the technology-- but people still do the same rotten things to each other, for the same reasons, and use the same sad excuses. (Kill your neighbor, terrorize the town, and claim it's 'god's will' that these things be done.)
No religion can claim to be exempt from this; saying that your deeds are "gods will" is as old as any concept of religion. And religion is not the only scapegoat used to hide behind.
Take "National Security" for example. Such things as an ID card may actually help; but at what cost?
And, finally, some forgotten massacres in history that many "intelectuals" choose to forget, ignore, and then eventually fight to allow in the name of peace:
13 Million Armenians: The Turks roughly during the peroid of World War I (Who still talks nowdays of the extermination of the Armenians? -- Adolf Hitler)
6 Million Jews, 6 Million additional "unwanted" others: Nazis during World War II.
Up to 40 Million (estimated): Stalin and Soviet Union's hospitality.
Between 32.25 and 61.7 million people --Mao Zedung (or whatever you spell it like) According to a 1971 report by the US Judiciary Comittee. (estimate started in 1949) Current estimates are higher.
8 Million Cambodians: 1975-1979. Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge. After the Vietnamese chased Pol Pot & Co. to Thailand, many western contries (Including the US, Canada, and Japan) supplied the thugs with food, shelter, and health care.
500,000 dead Hutus: Killed by the Tutsis starting during 1971 in Rwanda and Burundi. It took 15 years for anybody to give it much attention.
Croatia and Serbia -- No complete record exists.
Pacifists and intellectuals will gloss over these, and lie to try to convince you to join their cause. It's the same old story. It's happened before. It will happen again. Humanity has not evolved.
Just as some are trying to convince you that a National ID is a 'good thing', people have made very similar arguments for the massacres listed above.
Learn history for yourself, and do what you can to educate others. Please.
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
This is a bit OT but, they can help speed
up the war on drugs a bit, they just need to find a good reason of why they should do a large scale
napalm drop on civilian poppy fields.
Something a bit more practical is to figure out where the stockpiles of heroin supposedly worth
$1 * 10^9 are hidden, dump a few bombs on them and then pretend it was a vital military target.
They could just openly say they tried to destroy drug stockpiles but that would just annoy all the useless whacked out communist hippies hanging around.
Once the afgans have run out of drugs, the military only need a good reason to take on the golden triangle in asia and the columbians and the drug problem will almost be totally solved.
IANAP(olitician)
Unlike Germany, our country did not try to conquer the world and start the largest war in human history
Is this statement still correct?
Get the Hell off my planet, you slimy mobster Bush!
Mr Moderator:
How the fuck is this flamebait? You cunt-eyed peice of micrsoft loving shit.
All this achieved was to raise the cost of a fake ID to about 5000FF ($600-700) on the black market. The best forgeries come of course from corrupt officials who fabricated cards with fake IDs using the state-approved machines.
My goodness... physical security is not a good means of preventing copying. A well run ID system with enough memory on the card to do real cryptographic signatures would provide both security and tracability making forgeries nearly impossible to do.
A good ID card would contain a very small memory chip on it which contained a cryptographically signed message including the person who issued the ID, expiry time, issue time, distinguishing characteristics and possibly a photograph that was directly linked to a read-only id number embedded on every card to prevent the transfer of the information and signature to another card.
Information about each applicant would be captured on a machine which generated it's own cryptographic signature to ensure tracability. If in the case of a falsified record being entered into the system, you could expire every single ID card on the back-end and require each applicant to come back in.
You of course make providing false records a felony in federal courts punishable by a hefty amount of jail time.
These kinds of cards could eliminate drivers licenses and social security cards and as long as there was no physical printed number on the card itself and the readers for such cards were only issued to specific areas (aiports, police cars, etc), corporate interests would not be able to ask you for the information.
The only way to forge this particular type of cards requires either cracking the key, social engineering or some level of corruption.
Cracking the key is unlikely, but the nice thing about a realtime lookup system is you can do things like revoke CA keys and make IDs invalid. You then proceed to stagger the issue of cards with different signing keys so that the number of cards you'd invalidate if worst came to worst would be kept to a minimum.
Social engineering is a problem, but again, with a nice lookup system you could not ever get two IDs with different names. Once you registered, your biometic information would be checked against a master database to insure you haven't registered before. Obviously, registering under the wrong information the first time would lead to some rather nasty concequences down the road in case you actually wanted to have a life.
Corruption is a harder problem to deal with, but as stated before, revoking cards is not a problem with this type of system. You also have a nice paper trail which would make corruption very risky. Obviously paying the people who have control over the system well would help immensely.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
``I don't think the government has any trouble paying for the labor associated with the software,'' he said. ``I made this offer not because the government can't afford to pay for the software, but because I shut up the critics who were saying, `Gee, Larry Ellison wants to build a national database because he wants to sell more databases,' which is pretty cynical and bizarre. What's in it for me is the same thing that's in it for you: a safer America.''
Hmmm... Oracle has a reputation for selling broken software at a loss and then charging LOTS of money on services, maintenance, and upgrades... Donated Oracle licenses are about like money donated by the mob....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Yes, what a superb idea from our German friend. Let's all get National ID cards... and while were at it, perhaps we should do something about those pesky Jews? Please, enlighten us!
Someone ought to "volunteer" to make Ellison and Ashcroft disappear. If the National ID goes any further, you can bet they will.
There are still an awful lot of well-armed people in this country who don't feel like showing anybody their papers. These people do not want a National Citizen Tracking System, not to mention the inevitable tyranny which will follow, and they are able and willing to do anything necessary to prevent it. This is, in the end, why America is not Germany.
read the last book of the Bible in the New Testament "Revelations" chapter13:verse16,17 and chapter 14:verse11. i find it to be truely ironic that Ashcroft who "claims" to be a Christian is trying to bring about a id card that will take us one step closer to 666!!!
or purchasing groceries ?
How about me not working ?
Just don't let Larry upgrade his Learjet with my tax dollars.
Does anyone else feel a tad nervous about a jet aircraft in the hands of a known narcissistic scofflaw? How much fuel does that thing carry, anyway?
How do we know he's not going to crash it into a football stadium if he gets in a snit the next time Bill makes ten billion more than he does?
I remember Dennis Miller saying that Bill Gates is just a persian cat and a monocle short of being the villain in a James Bond flick, but Ellison worries me far more.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
AND, they make you give a digitized thumb-print as well. The photo they take could be used for facial recognition, and the thumbprint is surely entered into some clandestine database somewhere...
What's the difference honestly? Heck, I even bet the DMV is powered by Oracle.
one question though :
when you implement a nationwide system of Id cards, you have to expect a validity of the cards of at least 5 to 10 years if not more. It is a simple question of logistics : you don't replace millions of cards every year.
Now how can you guarantee that over these 5 or 10 years of validity, the cryptographic tools and parameters you have been using (such as key lengths, algorithms, etc.) have not become obsolete ? We are not talking about some software client upgrade to handle extended key length every
now and then, we are talking about little pieces of plastic sitting in everyone's wallet for a decade, very often out of reach.
Larry Ellison puts his schill on:
``I don't think the government has any trouble paying for the labor associated with the software,'' he said. ``I made this offer not because the government can't afford to pay for the software, but because I shut up the critics who were saying, `Gee, Larry Ellison wants to build a national database because he wants to sell more databases,' which is pretty cynical and bizarre. What's in it for me is the same thing that's in it for you: a safer America.''
This guy sounds desperate to get this thing in place. All the more reason to say no to his used car saleman methods and an obviously stupid scheme. We already have several forms of ID in this country we do not need more. Another thing I love is how he says he doesn't think the government will have trouble paying for it. What he forgets is that the government is funded by us schmoes via our taxes. Taxes may not affect him to much but I have known people who have had to forego food to pay taxes. So screw this BS.
What is more worrying is that the UK government is planning to make incitement to religious hatred a crime. At least us Jedis will be protected.
Pull your head out of your ass you moron. Freedom? Highschool kids going through metal detectors in school? 3 times more lawyers than engineers? Corporate States of America? Get mugged once a week, and killed every other month? Free speech gets you in jail because of whatever DMCA related bullshit corporate-sponsored law?
A long long time ago, when you made beautiful cars and put men on the moon and the American Dream actually meant something, yes, then you inspired people. Right now, noone wants to go NEAR the US and we're just waiting for it to implode and hope it will do as little damage to the rest of the world as possible.
And PS, if a German politician would go on TV *nowadays* and say "yeah we bombed the UN, the Red Cross and various civilians and 10 years after the Gulf War we STILL cant make a smart bomb smart enough to not miss by a mile sometimes but hey, them's the breaks" he'd be lynched on the streets. It's your "our civilians are worth inifitely more than yours" attitude that guarantees you will be haunted by terrorism until you get your act together.
Terrorists dont fear freedom, and are not jealous of it. What you sow you reap. And you've sown an awful lot of hate. Now you're reaping. And you know what? You haven't even *started*.
what is it going to have under occupation? terrorist?
personally i don't have a problem with these cards but it's fucking ludicrous to think that these are gong to stop terrorism
If you have nothing to hide, please post all of the email you have sent and received during the last year to Slashdot.
As you have nothing to hide, you won't care if the whole world reads it, would you?
The terrorists involved in the tragedy in the USA seemed to be well organised, patient and calculated.
If this great Larry System was implemented it opens the potential for these terrorists to get someone to feed them the biological data of all 'registered' Americans for use in biological/genetic weapons.
I'm aware that this sounds quite alarmist but it's an aweful potential vulnerability.
Cheers
AndyM
Yup. Topica is a company that spams. No double opt-in, they just assume if they have your e-mail address its OK to send advertising.
They don't track where or how they get the name, they just spam. (and KEEP spamming ya, even after you add them to your sendmail access list. It would seem no one reads log messages there, becuse the Fuck off spamming scum error message seems rather obvious.)
If I am allowed to use strong public key crypto, such as PGP, to protect my data in the "National Database" for these cards, then the whole thing is not such a worry for me.
I dont mind letting anyone who wants to read my card also have access to my data, so long as I am able to deliver that data to that entity in an encrypted form. If I could, for example, allow an airline company to access my National Data, via encrypting my data with the Airlines public key, and signing it with my own private key, then I got no problem with that.
The upshot, or perhaps the crux, is how my data is stored, and delivered or otherwise accessed. I can give permission to whomever I like, including my Government, to access some (or all) of it.
No problem.
I think a mandatory ID is a fine idea. It won't hinder terrorists, but it would deter crime (especially electoral fraud[1]).
ID cards, on the other hand, are an expensive collection of risks. Between forgery, card loss, private-sector abuse, privacy, and administration cost, ID card schemes have a lot to overcome before they could be considered worthwhile.
So here's my idea:
In other words, use an online database system instead of cards. Identity checking is done by asking for name and county of registration, retrieving the named person's photo from the named database, and comparing the photo to the real person. No forgery, no card loss, no card printing costs. Plus, the time it takes to check one person's identity will discourage mass surveillance. Distributing the databases reduces the risk of compromised access, and prevents the enumeration of undesirables by a central repressive government.
Well, that's my idea. I repeat that it would be foolish to believe that this (or any other) ID scheme would have prevented the 2001-09-11 terrorist attack.
[1] If you think the WTC atrocity was an attack on democracy, imagine the public reaction to an attack on polling centres during a national election.
[2] This is to prevent a central government from secretly aggregating the databases by specifying insecure implementations under the guise of standardisation.
[3] You can refuse to identify yourself to the police, but they can drag you into court if they can claim probable cause to believe that you're an illegal alien; at least the court's supervision will help protect your rights.
When was the last time any of you checked the personal databases that are on you?
Social Security, your Credit report. Both are guarenteed to have errors, your credit report is guarenteed to have huge errors.
Get those errors fixed? No way bucko. You have to spend almost a year to fix a credit report, getting something removed is like pulling teeth, adding a black bark against anybody? super easy to do, you can do it yourself for about $125.00 at any credit reporting agency, they dont even ask for proof.
Your criminal record, (Yes everyone has one, just most are blank) get something errornous reported there? hell to get it removed, and then wait years for that information to trickle down. One friend of mine has the same name as a dude in a different county that likes to drink and race cops. it was wrongly reportd on my friends report, and then finally deleted. This was 5 years ago, he applied for a security job and was sent away for felony convictions that wre still on his report that were supposedly cleaned. (background check companies, BUY the database and never maintain them.)
No thank you, if all of slashdot doesn't start civil unrest over this "national card" mail thousands of letters to every government official and basically scream in the streets that we will be looking for senators heads if this even get's entertained then all is lost.
Oh wait this is slashdot, all is lost. Not one of you will waste your precious time to write a letter, email AND call/fax all your represenatives and the president,vice president.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I can't believe that this is actually a possibility running through politicians' heads... Didn't anyone read *any* of the various postmodern false utopian literature such as Brave New World or 1984? C'mon, people...... This is exactly why i've decided to go into law rather than computer science...
"You do not present your ID when you buy something"
Not yet. As AT&T used to say, "You will".
Obviously, you have not been to Germany. I always pay cash. I think I have payed non-cash maybe 10 times in my life.
I personaly am more comfortable with the German way. The reason of the ID card is that I *can* prove my ID if I
want to. If a company would ask for ID (hasn't happened to me) then I would not only say "get lost" but also
start a campaign against them. An exception is of course car rentals, that want your drivers license.
Also, banks want your ID, but there are quite strict laws about what banks may do with your data.
If we build a system that has the potential to be abused by individuals, by corporations, or by the state, then it will be abused.
The US system is much more prone to abuse than ours. When I show ID once a year to travel, all few years when moving,
all few years when I need a rental car etc, then the chance of abusal is much less then when I give my name almost
every time I buy something to many, many employees of many, many companies.
Mother unwed? We're not implying Larry Ellison is a bastard, are we?
you might skip town on a bad check, they probably get it all the time. Checks suck
I do not understand what they are planing to do about Tourist, are they going to perform searches on them? Are they going to force them to get a card? (imagine the lines at the airports). Do they even now how many tourist take plane rides inside the states?
They got to be kidding with this!!!
I don't think they have thought of the difficulty and uselesness of this ID Card!
To prevent losing/wasting time over the implementation of this project i think US should contact the government of PRC and officials of former Soviet Union.I am sure they should be able to tell you how to set up such a system and identify every citizen to catch terrorists/counter-revolutionaries/running dogs of imperialists(my fav BTW :))
PS& OTT:Not a flamebait but how exactly do thinking and educated americans take the fact that taliban and their ilk were described about 10 -15 years ago as "freedom fighters" morally equivalent to the founding fathers of US?
Wanted : A Signature.
...given that Germany used to number its Jews. Now they're numbering the whole fucking population. At least the Krauts aren't discriminating anymore.
I'm not one to dwell on "end time" issues, as The Bible says no one will know the day or hour (no human on Earth, at least). But, this whole "face mapping" along with finger printing scares me, when it comes to how closely it can be compared to the mark of the beast verse(s) of Sacred Scripture.
Consider this:
A mark will be placed on the hand and (or?) forehead (don't have the verse in front of me right now). Try to understand this vision not in modern terms, but from the prophet in his day. Face mapping and fingerprinting can be "marks", could they not? Together on one card, this is strong evidence for a "mark of the beast". "But they wouldn't be visible on the card, they'd be on a chip or strip, etc." You say? Does something have to be visible to be considered a mark? Consider that CHRISTIAN BAPTISM leaves a MARK on the individual. Can you see it? You can see the person being baptized, but what about the mark? No. It is something spiritual. Do you see the comparison? Baptism leaves a mark that cannot be seen, so why should we think the mark of the beast HAS to be something we can SEE? Maybe it won't be a spiritual mark like baptism, but what I'm trying to stress is that people are getting so used to the "chip" idea being the mark of the beast, that when it comes, people may accept it without knowing it! A large part of the Jews in Jesus' time rejected Him because they were looking for another type of messiah (but this is another discussion altogether). We must not have blinders on. For all I know, it could be a chip, it could be anything. But, I thought I'd share this interesting idea with you all. It also says those without the mark cannot buy or sell.
Ahh.. Voluntary you say? Hah!
From the San Mercury News article:
I made this offer not because the government can't afford to pay for the software, but because I shut up the critics who were saying, `Gee, Larry Ellison wants to build a national database because he wants to sell more databases,' which is pretty cynical and bizarre.
A little higher up in the article is this little tidbit:
Ellison said that if he does donate the software, maintenance and upgrades won't be free.
Anyone who buys from Orcales knows that most of the cost of software is the maintenance and upgrades. [www.cio.com] Which kind of negates any benefit from the initial donation. In other words, Larry Ellison is doing this to sell more databases. Around $3 billion's worth, if the numbers stated in the article are correct. That's one sweet gov't contract.
We cannot fight terrorists by making more rules, restrictions and regulation. It just won't work. They don't play by the rules. They never will.
And, might I remind Mr. Ashcroft, you cannot preserve freedom by eliminating it.
--
For the book says, "We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us."
Guess they didn't like this story yesterday:
2001-10-17 15:55:20 Ellison meets with Ascroft re: National ID Card (articles,usa) (rejected)
Great! You might then expect the current INS data to do the trick. No need for a new ID card, right? The fact that the INS can't make good use of the data they already have is not convincing evidince that further intrusions will help.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Larry Ellison penned an editorial in the Wall Street Journal last week, and it made it to today's free web-based opinion page, Opinion Journal. You can find it here. He makes the argument that everyone's tracking us anyway, so why not just compile it all into one database? Thanks, Larry, but no thanks.
I'm a Canadian student doing an internship in the US.
My proof of eligibility to work requires the presentation of ALL of:
Stamped Canadian passport.
Letter paper sized form.
Entry card (conveniently bigger than my passport)
Social Security card
Confirmation letter from visa sponsor.
Confirmation letter from host company.
The piece of paper alone costs $500 to replace. The entry card is irreplacable. The passport requires visiting the embassy.
If they got a national card that can functionally replace these in the US, plus using my fingerprints to prevent it from being usable by a thief, I'd be first in line!
Gimme one!
People like Ellison, with their efforts to bring us an American police state, are far more dangerous to the freedom and safety of most Americans than Bin Laden ever will be. Once the restraints of the Constitution and Bill of Rights are removed from the government, the horrors to follow will make you pine for the good old days when terrorists were all you had to worry about. Ellison and his ilk are the enemies of American freedom, and it is the patriotic duty of all Americans to oppose them in whatever way we can.
Don't buy from Oracle and don't sell to Oracle. Steer the companies you work for away from Oracle products. Dump your Oracle stock. Make a big stink if your organization is thinking of inviting Ellison to speak. If you work for Oracle, you work for the enemy; find another job. From now on, anyone who works for Ellison should be considered a social pariah.
So when my (and 5000 other people's) ID card gets revoked because of a security breach, what am I supposed to do until the authorities get around to doing a new security check on me (and the 5000 others). Beg for food in the streets? I certainly won't be flying on any planes or crossing borders or other things I frequently do for work.
I guess our 2 prominent Jewish friends (Feinstein, Dershowitz) need a refresher in history. This kind of thing is just *NOT* a good idea. We've already learned that our government cannot be trusted when it comes to power that can be so easily abused.
"Pull your head out of your ass you moron. Freedom? Highschool kids going through metal detectors in school? 3 times more lawyers than engineers? Corporate States of America? Get mugged once a week, and killed every other month? Free speech gets you in jail because of whatever DMCA related bullshit corporate-sponsored law?"
I never said things were perfect. But that is why we have a Supreme Court. Eventually screwed up stuff like that gets to them, and a level head prevails, and things straighten out. Some things take time. As far as muggings and killings go, those happen everywhere.
"A long long time ago, when you made beautiful cars and put men on the moon and the American Dream actually meant something, yes, then you inspired people. Right now, noone wants to go NEAR the US and we're just waiting for it to implode and hope it will do as little damage to the rest of the world as possible."
We inspired people then? When Joe McCarthy was ruining lives of numerous people by accusing them of communism and blacks were second-class citizens? America is now more free than ever. As for people not wanting to get near the US, ask our coast guard and border patrol about that, they spend billions of dollars a year keeping people out because we have more immigrants trying to get in than the country can handle.
"
And PS, if a German politician would go on TV *nowadays* and say "yeah we bombed the UN, the Red Cross and various civilians and 10 years after the Gulf War we STILL cant make a smart bomb smart enough to not miss by a mile sometimes but hey, them's the breaks" he'd be lynched on the streets. It's your "our civilians are worth inifitely more than yours" attitude that guarantees you will be haunted by terrorism until you get your act together."
If another group of people threatens us, our civilians ARE worth more than theirs. Our lives and freedom are no good to us if we allow ourselves to be the victims of terrorism. European and Asian nations have long tried negotiating with terrorists and their supporters, and it never stops anything. If the only way to protect ourselves is to stop worrying about our enemies lives, and the lives of those unfortunate enough to be caught inbetween, so be it. Better them than me.
That said, we often do put ourselves in harm's way for others. We went into the Persian Gulf to help our Kuwaiti Allies retake their nation from the forces of a tyrant. We went into Somalia, trying to save the lives of the poor and helpless, because we could not bear to watch them starve when renegades and warlords stole the food we sent there, and we left because they decided killing our soldiers was more important than eating. Against the wishes of many nations, and our own people, we went to Bosnia/Croatia/Serbia to save the lives of muslim civilians from a holocaust by a lunatic tyrant mafia leader, and people hate us for it. No nation on earth gives more money, food, and jobs to foreign civilians than ours.
"Terrorists dont fear freedom, and are not jealous of it. What you sow you reap. And you've sown an awful lot of hate. Now you're reaping. And you know what? You haven't even *started*."
Keep dreaming. Terrorists hate the US because we give the people they try to opress a bastion of hope. These fanatics try so hard to quash those who do not agree with them in their own countries, and yet still cannot crush their spirits. When it comes to freedom, there is no greater symbol of freedom. So they attack us, call us dogs, burn our flag, all to try and make us look weak. Instead our armed forces will show them the true meaning of weakness. Terrorists will know weakness when we cut them down in droves with our guns and bombs. Our special forces agents will exploits their weaknesses when they silently slit throats of terrorist guards, slipping into mountain caves to destroy the cowardly terrorist leaders, who hide away because they know that their lives are running short. And the rest of the world shall know strength, because they will benefit from this. At some point, people will no longer try to take hostages in European hotels. India will not release murderous terrorists to placate airline hijackers. Suicide bombers will realize that their leaders are unconscionable madmen. America's strength will be shown to the world, and used to protect the world.
Pretty much. If we really wanted to, we could have colonized the entire middle east and destroy anyone who tried to stop us (And no, we would not get vaporized back because the French and the Russians would not give a good goddamn if we colonized half the planet, as long as we left them alone.).
The cryptography may be secure, but the system is not. The easiest way for a terrorist network to rip the ID system apart would be to issue a barrage of false positives -- at the very least it would cost a fortune to recall and reissue the cards and reassess security risks. Is anyone going to tell me that these terrorists couldn't get willing volunteers for this (lets see, 10 years in a comfy US prison or life/death in an Afgan minefield, hmmm... don't know what i'd choose).
The simple truth is that you don't need to breach the security to disable the system if your goal is to cause fear. All you really need to do is to make people doubt its effectiveness (or make the authorities look like idiots).
As a quick aside... is anyone honestly suggesting that fingerprint/retina/DNA/whatever scanners are going to be installed everywhere that someone could cause a problem (if so, I've got a few hot stock tips!) -- otherwise, the card is essentially the same as any other photo ID (great cryptography and amazing identification techniques are useless if no-one ever checks their validity).
If the inherent greed and obvious self-serving goals of the card pushers aren't hints enough, current problems with Anthrax being mailed to people should demonstrate the idiocy of this idea. SECURITY IS AND CAN NEVER BE PERFECT. There are always other means. Always a weakness. Deal with it. This is just another attempt to sell us something we don't need.
That's a tempting solution considering what is said in some literature circles after a few vodkas.
;)
...what? that all revolutions start in a pub?
Protest.net
Having played both sports a bit (not a lot, I played football in high school and rugby for two semesters in college), football gets a much higher masochism rating in my book. Rugby you're consistently bruised and sore the next day. In football, you're largely okay unless two guys hit you from the wrong angle, popping joints out of their sockets and snapping your bones like twigs.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Note the mother's maiden name on the picture of his ID card. Does that mean he is a bastard?
In spite of all the "Gates wants to take over the world" threads I've seen here I have always believed that Ellison was the most likely candidate for that career path.
You can just picture his dreams where he is sitting on top of a Collosus style computer holding all the information in the world and he has control.
Bwaaaa Ha Ha Ha Haaaa.
What crap. You think enough people would have saw this for what it is, billionaire monopolist Ellison's ploy for more sales and further power. Gonna give the software to the government? I suppose the consulting fee's necissary to put this into effect will be donated as well. I'm sure Scott "There's no such thing as privacy anyway" McNealy will gladly donate all those Sparc boxes to run it on. Thank you Dianne "Let's make sure we keep those foreign students, I mean terrorists out of the country" Feinstein for again proving you're about just as fascist all the republicans you run against.
re-reading 1984 and shivering,
~raum
This is a great improvement over the old days, when it took a lot of inking, cutting, and retouching to convert someone into a non-person.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
welp thats because oracle is involved. lets implement on MySQL and make it a victory for OSS.
the new MySQL catch phrase can be "MySQL protecting your freedom today!"
Whenever a driver's license is accepted for ID, a non-driver ID from the DMV is also accepted (except for where proof of driving privilege is required - it is proof of identity). The non-driver ID is just like a drivers license, except it does NOT grant one the right to drive.
Anyone that doesn't have a drivers license can get a non-driver ID, even if they have are too young, blind, never passed a test, or have been convicted for driving 100 mph in a school zone, while drunk and on speed, 6 dozen times.
So people without a drivers license have the ability to get a proof of identity that is just as good - that's how many non-drivers get beer and other things they need ID for.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I think you're the one missing the major point here. The purpose of this is not to stop the acts of September 11th. Nothing can stop the acts of September 11th, they already happened. Feel free to discuss this on its own merits, but don't throw up some strawman about something that this wasn't designed to stop.
I don't think he was talking about time travel... So, you're accepting it as given that this national ID card system was NOT designed to stop plane hijacking terrorist acts. What the FUCK is it designed to stop then?? Any notion that we have some kind of right to privacy? By trying to push this idea through congress right now, they are implying that it is a good idea because it would make us safer by stopping terrorist acts like the one that just occurred... you know, that only news story we've had for the last month. If you're trying to tell me that they believe (and expect the rest of the country to believe) that the terrorist act and this national ID system are completely UNrelated, and that everyone should consider 'its merits' separately.... hold on, I got to turn off this bull-shit-o-meter, it's going off like crazy.
Seriously though, why not?
I think that it's pretty obvious that there are tons of wonderful reasons why we should be opposed to these cards. I'm opposed to them from a moral, civil liberties, and privacy standpoint. The government already knows more about me than they should. And big business knows even more about me than the government! Why?
How much extra effort would it take for those airlines to run a second check against their own internal databases when you scan your card? Now big business has a record of your travelling, and they can market to you just like they do in grocery stores who use the club cards. Next, the grocery stores abandon club cards in favor of governemnt ID cards because they'll want an extra level of ID verification before accepting your check or your (possibly stolen) credit card. The potential abuses for this are endless, just like they were for the SSN cards.
If you really want this idea to be killed before it ever gets off the ground, we have to turn the majority of the American population against it, and make sure that they are vocally opoosed to it. Now I'm not a religious man by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think that we could potentially use the "crutch" of religion to fight this issue.
All you would have to do is convince some large, gullible religious groups (Jerry Falwell's church, the Southern Baptists, etc...) that this ID card is the "Mark of the Beast" from the bible, and blammo! They'll all oppose it with every ounce of their being. Not only that, they'll oppose the election of candidates that support such "evil plans". Granted, the average Slashdotter is probably not likely to want to align themselves with fundamentalist religious groups, but I think that this is one case where we can use the enemy against itself and actually win!
So what do you think?
From the bill itself-
(h) Limitation on Use of the Confirmation System and Any
Related Systems.--
(2) No national identification card.--Nothing in
this subtitle shall be construed to authorize, directly
or indirectly, the issuance or use of national
identification cards or the establishment of a national
identification card.
Read the bill next time
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Rep. Tom Campbell, her opponent for the 2000 election, has alot of good qualities not normally associated with Republicans. He's a critic of the current drug laws and I hear he ran just so that Feinstein wouldn't run opposed.
A national database with all my personal info. Kept safe, no doubt, by microsofts iis. My god, there must be blackhats everywhere salivating for a chance at this sugary prize.
Disclaimer: MINAA (Mummy! I'm Not An Animal!)
Check out this site: http://www.viisage.com/facialrecog.htm The technology to do this already exists. Forgot your id card? Log on with your face. Want to: - purchase something - enter a building - surf the net - start your car - go some where "Log on" with your face. All thats missing is the common database on the back end and a few more cameras.
Everyone looks like someone else. Just find your doppleganger, shoot him, hide the body and take his card or carve out his chip.
Biometrics will help prevent this but how long will it take to equip every checkpoint with thumbprint/face/retina scanners?
Eventually surgical techniques will catch up and it'll be possible to graft a print so it looks natural or an eyeball so it moves (it doesn't have to work 'cause the id thief is willing to sacrifice a lot more than eyesight).
I've been a victim of SSN + Visa identity theft so let me clear up a few misconceptions: the thief didn't know my birthdate or mother's maiden name. Those are typically used for confirming id when checking in on an *existing* account. The thief didn't steal my accounts (except for the Visa), but created new ones using my good credit. A valid SSN plus made up everything else was sufficient. The thief used his real physical address which was a room he rented for a few months only because he rented some expensive equipment which had to be delivered (he didn't return it).
The idea that a national ID number would only be shared with "trustworthy" companies and the government and therefore safe from theft is silly. I suspect my Visa # was stolen by a clerk at a store or a keypunch operator at an ecommerce site. My SSN is known by a whole host of companies including some health insurance phone jockeys who I've gotten pissed off at. I also used to be pretty casual with an insecure cordless telephone.
Real, fallible, corruptible people handle these numbers.
Who woulda thought Larry Ellison was the anti-christ!? I was sure it was Bill Gates. DAMMIT!
It's a very dark ride.
Good thing our old pal Larry's offering to give the DB away for free. Oracle is fine for general purpose DBs, but really sucks at high-end data warehouse apps like this. Hm... maybe we should all lobby the govt to run it on big Windows server farms too! Nothing to worry about then, it'll be going up and down faster than a bridegroom's bum!
A good ID card would contain a very small memory chip on it which contained a cryptographically signed message including the person who issued the ID, expiry time, issue time, distinguishing characteristics and possibly a photograph that was directly linked to a read-only id number embedded on every card to prevent the transfer of the information and signature to another card.
You assume that I'm going to use my fake ID to run for president! Guess what? I'm not! I only need it to work long enough to execute my suicide terrorist act without being detected by you first.
So whether I lie to the corrupt official or shoot them in the head and use their still warm thumbprint to activate the ID Generation machine is irrelevant. I still have an ID that's going to be valid for the next 12 hours or more. Plenty of time to board a plane or train or get into some secure building.
So again, how would a more complicated lock thwart a criminal intent on getting through the door at ANY AND ALL COST? Oh wait, an alarm system! No, there's a response time. Armed guards! No, they can be identified and taken out. Complicated, super cool technology! Sorry, if you can use it, so can a well informed or financed hacker. It's all a matter of motivation.
You're assuming that we can *prevent* criminal acts in the absence of telepathy machines and AI overlords. We have neither. We also have a judicial system founded on a quaint idea called due process. And while _that_ gets overlooked more and more every day, it guarantees that dealing with the tragedy in the wake of criminal action is a part of our way of life.
These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
The next thing you know, we might turn around and demand that every world citizen have to have one of OUR ID cards, because they are so cool and high tech and all. We'd have all kinds of reasons, probably backed up by more terrorist attacks, but the bottom line would be that we would be presenting the world with an ultimatum, while it looked down the barrel of our military force and observed the twitchiness of our collective trigger finger.
The LAST thing we need is more defenses for Bunker USA. The LAST thing we need is support for our tendency to be the empire builder. And this is antithetical to our dearest values anyhow- hell, we were formed through _rebellion_ against an Empire, and now the best we can do is attempt another one? What the hell does that have to do with liberty?
I think that at least some of the resistance to this idea comes not from ignorance, but from self-understanding. We're good at a lot of things, we Americans. But we're not wise. But we sure have a lot of energy. Now we have ten times the energy and hysteria that we used to have, and a bunch of vulturelike capitalist types trying to invent information systems to make us feel safer- and also to get much more detailed control and surveillance over our lives, for the sake of that one guy who might be a terrorist undercover. Look at our history, at what even our Presidents have done to seek control (I'm thinking Nixon here, primarily).
If we have surveillance over all aspects of our lives, I want it to be some British person, quieted by the knowledge of lost empires, taking a more Continental pace, a more England-sized ambition to the job. I do NOT want our own merry little capitalists and politicians, hot for empire and world domination, manning the cameras and policing the checkpoints, and neither should you- because I'm telling you, what gives you the idea it would stop there, within our borders?
After the terrorist attacks on the WTC, I got to see some of my fellow Americans, not wise ones but not monsters either, talking with perfect poise and seriousness about the desirability of our invading Canada and Mexico to expand our territory for our own protection. About invading any troublesome Middle East country and simply annexing it. And this is from people who _weren't_ looking for the 'glass parking lot' approach! Something was wrong inside their heads- they honestly felt, in defiance of all history, that the best chance for world peace was an American Empire, like Rome and Britain before it. Some of our leaders feel the same way.
Look- whatever you do, remember this one thing: we are not wise, and we are not always safe to be around. We need to be cajoled and cuddled and soothed into the modern world, and the terrorists are NOT HELPING. Neither are our captains of industry- empire by another name can be empire all the same, you Europeans know that, we _don't_.
Stop trusting us! Smile, soothe, and be freakin' smart, because it's going to take a while for us to be rational, or have any clue about being a world citizen.
-Chris Johnson
Look who's behind this!
Dianne "I love Fascism, yet somehow most people still seem to think I'm a liberal, how stupid can people be" Feinstein
Gen. Norman "kill em all but Sadam, let god sort 'em out, except for Sadam of course" Schwarzkopf
Scott "my computers are so good, who needs more than a 500mhz processor" McNealy
Larry "Oracle rocks, but benchmarking it is illegal" Ellison (alternate "spys, what spys")
John "dancing is evil, no I'm not making a joke, continue to dance and my Agents will shoot you" Ashcroft
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!