Certainly. It was about semantics before I arrived and I've already admited to feeding the troll.
. . . that have nothing to do with the discussion.
The only thing I'm discussing is power consumption.
'Hibernate' uses the exact same amount of power as choosing 'Shutdown' or pushing the power button. The fact that that isn't truly 'off' isn't incredibly important to anyone.
Since I've already provided myself as a counter example this could be considered an insult I suppose.
. . . which rather obviously requires it to have power all the time.
Which supports my premise.
And there's no way in hell that airport security can tell the difference between a hiberating laptop and a powered off laptop, because a hiberating laptop is a powered off laptop...it's just one that's going to load memory from disk the next time it boots.
The test is simple. Power up the machine. Power it down. Turn the switch to the "off" position. This last they consider critical. A machine that is put into hibernation mode from the shutdown menu or by closing the lid may still be drawing current and providing functionality. See your own above comments.
And, BTW, you can have a computer that's 'hiberating' and is truely off...you just have to hiberate and pull the power cable. It will boot just as fast when you plug it back in and turn it on.
Yes, it will post and restore, and a bit faster than a normal boot because the memory image is compressed, however, while the plug is out some funtionality may well be lost that would otherwise be available because the machine has no power to provide it.
If you want to save as much power as possible turn it off.
Ah give 'em a frickin' break. They had to build the story out of Lego first, which takes time, and then they turned out to be short a few bricks (which we already knew, didn't we?) and had to run out to the mall for more.
The Han Solo story didn't take as long because someone else did all the work.
Kinda like making rock candy, only harder on the teeth, not to mention the funny iron oxide aftertaste.
When I was a kid learning about crystal formation by precipitaion from a solution was taught this way in grade school. Do they still do this or has sugar become too politically incorrect?
Funny you should mention that. While writing my post below I had a look at the Lincoln Log website, just to see if you could still get real wooden ones (yeah, they call them "classic" now, but they're not the same. They look varnished or something to keep little Johnny from getting a sliver).
And lo and behold, they' got all sorts of premolded plastic parts, like doors, windows and castle tower tops and stuff.
In "Classic."
They may not quite be prefab cabins but they're pushing it to the limit.
KFG
Re:Small Scale Death Star II? As opposed to what?
on
Han Solo in Lego Carbonite
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
I predate the American availability of Lego. So for me it was first Lincoln Logs and then Erector Sets (in fact Gilbert made up a good deal of my childhood. You could go into a regular dept. store and buy jars of chemicals and frogs and scalpels to cut 'em open and stuff. All without parental permission or anything. People didn't worry about their kid swallowing a bolt or pickled frog back then).
So the Erector set is my real love. You learn real engineering principles. I first met Lego when I had younger cousins.
I agree with the "cheating" though. I mean, what's the point? Lego is for building things, not just to have a lousy model.
Yes. S5 and/or pulling the plug was what I was alluding to when I said "turn it off," and you can't get through airport security (or at least you shouldn't be able to) with a hibernating laptop.
I'm afraid I've been feeding a troll who came in yelling "moron," but who clearly has never measured current draw of computers in various states.
If the computer consumed no power how would it be possible to Wake-on-Lan and/or without a full software reboot.
Any form of "Instant On" is using some power for something somewhere. There aren't little power pixies hiding in the machine to take care of these things.
For most people these little bits of power dribble are irrelevant, but if you're out in the middle of an ocean (or even a larger lake) on a small boat with no engine, completely dependent upon sun, wind and muscle for electricity generation you learn to completely disconnect anything you aren't intending to use for awhile.
Your manner is offensive. (And yes, there are fields where paying to work is the norm, the word "rent" is used in refering to such and more people are waiting to do so then there are positions)
Neurons? What do you need neurons for? In my day we were just atoms and had to monitor the state of our electrons in the outer shell to get anything done.
Kids with their computers today don't know what that's like.
Slow start up times are the price of using programable, general purpose machines. The ultimate way to reduce startup times is to hardwire the specific functionality you're looking for, as in conventional TVs or stereos.
Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice, as they say.
I don't work in the software industry. I never have. I don't expect I ever will. My first contract out of college was as head automotive engineer for a small outfit developing electric cars.
I'm an entreprenuer. A businessman. I like business. I've got a copy of "The Art of Selling" right over there on my shelf, next to the Halliday & Resnick. But I grew up in a hard core marketing family (marketing development manager for GE Broadcasting Corporation) and have a finely tuned nose for the stink of hype. It isn't that I think I'm better, I just know when I'm being hustled. I've been the hustler.
And you're absolutely right by making the comparison to the way cars are sold. I've been top management at a dealership specializing in exotics and collectables.
Unfortunately that comparison makes my point. Not yours, "safe," "comfortable," and "economical" having little to no meaning within the context they are used when selling cars. Especially since cars are overtly dangerous, uncomfortable and damned expensive to purchase and own (possibly more expensive than your home even).
All they do is make you, as you say, "happy" about the words and thus more inclined to buy the car.
Yes, within certain contexts those words have real meaning. Outside of those contexts, like in a sales pitch, they are pure buzzword gobblegook designed explicitly to fleece the "mark" and make one's quota.
By the way, have you read "Ogilvy on Advertising"? Brilliant man. Brilliant marketer. You don't pay attention to what he has to say at your company's peril.
Indeed. Here in the upstate NY/southern Vermont border region we have sensitivity to these matters and refer to them with respect as "Bovine-American Hominid Production Partners."
It might well prevent him from driving drunk, over tired, or with an obvious mechanical problem with his car.
On the other hand contacting customers in this case made no difference because no customers were contacted, nor is there any known benefit if they had contacted customers.
On the other hand you missed entirely the real flaw in parent's argument, which is that traffic cops are a government intrusion bearing on legal issues in which there is a presumption of innocence and Constitutional protection from undue search and siezure.
Whereas in the case of the beef it's an issue of someone you bought something from putting up a sign saying "Hey, we sold some shit that might be poisonous last week. If you want to know if you bought some of it ask us and we'll look up your receipt."
I'm not at all sure why this is different than when a customer walks into my R/C speed shop and I say "Hey, those batteries I sold you last week ok? I've had a few complaints about duds."
I'm afraid I don't eat beef, nor have I given any indication that I would be averse to being notified of a recall, nor in this case were customers initially notified of a recall by any means relating to their store cards. Customers had to contact the store themselves and request the information.
That said, in this particular case I would have been at more risk driving to the store than I would have been from eating a whole mad cow, so it seems unlikely I would have given the matter any undue attention, but you would have been free to contact them for your own peace of mind.
There's another option, since in this case information was only given by customer request:
1. Fill in a fake name and address on the card, and don't worry about being contacted. 2. Give them the card number matching said false information when you request information.
But let's move a little closer to the actual case:
1) You aren't actually known to have purchased infected beef. 2) Said beef isn't actually known to have any deleterious effects on humans even if consumed. 3) Because even if it is harmful the odds are literally millions to one.
Nudges things a smidge closer to the grey zone, no?
Being saved from certain death might be one thing, but being "saved" from everything on the order of the risk in this case is rather another.
Of course the whole issue is sidestepped if you ask the customer how he feels about it, as they did in this particular case. Maybe they could put a little check mark on the application form that says "Would you like us to monitor your eating habits" or something.
vim actually, it's more user friendly than pico. . . and the SDK. I don't understand the point of IDEs. They turn everything into some big production or something when you could just type some code.
Although to be honest I only use Java under duress. It's not a very productive language.
Slashdot Mirror
You are arguing semantics. . .
Certainly. It was about semantics before I arrived and I've already admited to feeding the troll.
. . . that have nothing to do with the discussion.
The only thing I'm discussing is power consumption.
'Hibernate' uses the exact same amount of power as choosing 'Shutdown' or pushing the power button. The fact that that isn't truly 'off' isn't incredibly important to anyone.
Since I've already provided myself as a counter example this could be considered an insult I suppose.
. . . which rather obviously requires it to have power all the time.
Which supports my premise.
And there's no way in hell that airport security can tell the difference between a hiberating laptop and a powered off laptop, because a hiberating laptop is a powered off laptop...it's just one that's going to load memory from disk the next time it boots.
The test is simple. Power up the machine. Power it down. Turn the switch to the "off" position. This last they consider critical. A machine that is put into hibernation mode from the shutdown menu or by closing the lid may still be drawing current and providing functionality. See your own above comments.
And, BTW, you can have a computer that's 'hiberating' and is truely off...you just have to hiberate and pull the power cable. It will boot just as fast when you plug it back in and turn it on.
Yes, it will post and restore, and a bit faster than a normal boot because the memory image is compressed, however, while the plug is out some funtionality may well be lost that would otherwise be available because the machine has no power to provide it.
If you want to save as much power as possible turn it off.
Which is where I came into this movie.
KFG
Ah give 'em a frickin' break. They had to build the story out of Lego first, which takes time, and then they turned out to be short a few bricks (which we already knew, didn't we?) and had to run out to the mall for more.
The Han Solo story didn't take as long because someone else did all the work.
KFG
Kinda like making rock candy, only harder on the teeth, not to mention the funny iron oxide aftertaste.
When I was a kid learning about crystal formation by precipitaion from a solution was taught this way in grade school. Do they still do this or has sugar become too politically incorrect?
KFG
What joke?
KFG
Funny you should mention that. While writing my post below I had a look at the Lincoln Log website, just to see if you could still get real wooden ones (yeah, they call them "classic" now, but they're not the same. They look varnished or something to keep little Johnny from getting a sliver).
And lo and behold, they' got all sorts of premolded plastic parts, like doors, windows and castle tower tops and stuff.
In "Classic."
They may not quite be prefab cabins but they're pushing it to the limit.
KFG
I predate the American availability of Lego. So for me it was first Lincoln Logs and then Erector Sets (in fact Gilbert made up a good deal of my childhood. You could go into a regular dept. store and buy jars of chemicals and frogs and scalpels to cut 'em open and stuff. All without parental permission or anything. People didn't worry about their kid swallowing a bolt or pickled frog back then).
So the Erector set is my real love. You learn real engineering principles. I first met Lego when I had younger cousins.
I agree with the "cheating" though. I mean, what's the point? Lego is for building things, not just to have a lousy model.
KFG
put episodes 1 & 2 in frozen carbonite...boy they were horrid!
You liked them that much, huh? Well, there's no accounting for taste.
KFG
We'd have to throw the entire thing away. . .
I was with you right up to here.
KFG
Yes. S5 and/or pulling the plug was what I was alluding to when I said "turn it off," and you can't get through airport security (or at least you shouldn't be able to) with a hibernating laptop.
I'm afraid I've been feeding a troll who came in yelling "moron," but who clearly has never measured current draw of computers in various states.
If the computer consumed no power how would it be possible to Wake-on-Lan and/or without a full software reboot.
Any form of "Instant On" is using some power for something somewhere. There aren't little power pixies hiding in the machine to take care of these things.
For most people these little bits of power dribble are irrelevant, but if you're out in the middle of an ocean (or even a larger lake) on a small boat with no engine, completely dependent upon sun, wind and muscle for electricity generation you learn to completely disconnect anything you aren't intending to use for awhile.
KFG
Ok. I'm willing to learn. What's the difference between "saving state and shutting down" and "hibernating?"
KFG
Your manner is offensive. (And yes, there are fields where paying to work is the norm, the word "rent" is used in refering to such and more people are waiting to do so then there are positions)
Your conclusion, however, is correct.
KFG
"Hibernate" IS off. It writes the RAM to disk and shuts down.
Therefore hibernating is shutting down.
KFG
Neurons? What do you need neurons for? In my day we were just atoms and had to monitor the state of our electrons in the outer shell to get anything done.
Kids with their computers today don't know what that's like.
Oh, wait.
KFG
If you want to save as much power as possible turn it off.
KFG
Slow start up times are the price of using programable, general purpose machines. The ultimate way to reduce startup times is to hardwire the specific functionality you're looking for, as in conventional TVs or stereos.
Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice, as they say.
KFG
I don't work in the software industry. I never have. I don't expect I ever will. My first contract out of college was as head automotive engineer for a small outfit developing electric cars.
I'm an entreprenuer. A businessman. I like business. I've got a copy of "The Art of Selling" right over there on my shelf, next to the Halliday & Resnick. But I grew up in a hard core marketing family (marketing development manager for GE Broadcasting Corporation) and have a finely tuned nose for the stink of hype. It isn't that I think I'm better, I just know when I'm being hustled. I've been the hustler.
And you're absolutely right by making the comparison to the way cars are sold. I've been top management at a dealership specializing in exotics and collectables.
Unfortunately that comparison makes my point. Not yours, "safe," "comfortable," and "economical" having little to no meaning within the context they are used when selling cars. Especially since cars are overtly dangerous, uncomfortable and damned expensive to purchase and own (possibly more expensive than your home even).
All they do is make you, as you say, "happy" about the words and thus more inclined to buy the car.
Yes, within certain contexts those words have real meaning. Outside of those contexts, like in a sales pitch, they are pure buzzword gobblegook designed explicitly to fleece the "mark" and make one's quota.
By the way, have you read "Ogilvy on Advertising"? Brilliant man. Brilliant marketer. You don't pay attention to what he has to say at your company's peril.
KFG
Indeed. Here in the upstate NY/southern Vermont border region we have sensitivity to these matters and refer to them with respect as "Bovine-American Hominid Production Partners."
KFG
When did scalability become a buzzword?
The instant it became part of a "product" for "enterprise" with an "IT" department staffed by "engineers."
I'd write more but I'd be in danger of flaming, since you come off as an egalitarian prick.
I'm sure that was purely unintentional though.
KFG
It might well prevent him from driving drunk, over tired, or with an obvious mechanical problem with his car.
On the other hand contacting customers in this case made no difference because no customers were contacted, nor is there any known benefit if they had contacted customers.
On the other hand you missed entirely the real flaw in parent's argument, which is that traffic cops are a government intrusion bearing on legal issues in which there is a presumption of innocence and Constitutional protection from undue search and siezure.
Whereas in the case of the beef it's an issue of someone you bought something from putting up a sign saying "Hey, we sold some shit that might be poisonous last week. If you want to know if you bought some of it ask us and we'll look up your receipt."
I'm not at all sure why this is different than when a customer walks into my R/C speed shop and I say "Hey, those batteries I sold you last week ok? I've had a few complaints about duds."
KFG
I'm afraid I don't eat beef, nor have I given any indication that I would be averse to being notified of a recall, nor in this case were customers initially notified of a recall by any means relating to their store cards. Customers had to contact the store themselves and request the information.
That said, in this particular case I would have been at more risk driving to the store than I would have been from eating a whole mad cow, so it seems unlikely I would have given the matter any undue attention, but you would have been free to contact them for your own peace of mind.
Seems reasonable to me.
KFG
Mad turnip! Mad turnip! Run away!
KFG
There's another option, since in this case information was only given by customer request:
1. Fill in a fake name and address on the card, and don't worry about being contacted.
2. Give them the card number matching said false information when you request information.
Problem solved.
KFG
Yes, that's one way of looking at it.
But let's move a little closer to the actual case:
1) You aren't actually known to have purchased infected beef.
2) Said beef isn't actually known to have any deleterious effects on humans even if consumed.
3) Because even if it is harmful the odds are literally millions to one.
Nudges things a smidge closer to the grey zone, no?
Being saved from certain death might be one thing, but being "saved" from everything on the order of the risk in this case is rather another.
Of course the whole issue is sidestepped if you ask the customer how he feels about it, as they did in this particular case. Maybe they could put a little check mark on the application form that says "Would you like us to monitor your eating habits" or something.
KFG
vim actually, it's more user friendly than pico. . . and the SDK. I don't understand the point of IDEs. They turn everything into some big production or something when you could just type some code.
Although to be honest I only use Java under duress. It's not a very productive language.
KFG
* Is my math/memory off? Wasn't Black Friday in 1929, which would put him growing up on the tail end of it all?
:)
Your math is fine. Your memory, however, is a bit shakey.
Black Friday was in 2003. In fact, it'll come around again in 2004, just as it does every year, the day after Thanksgiving.
I believe you're thinking of Black Tuesday.
KFG