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KDE 2.0 Release Schedule
jhittner wrote to us with more news about the release of the KDE 2.0 beta. We're currently looking at a release towards the end of this month. As well, there is a new timetable on the KDE development mailing list. Update: 03/14 01:26 by E : To be more clear - it is kdelibs 2.0 that are being frozen - KDEBase is frozen around the end of April.
Beg your pardon?
Unfortunately, we cannot revolutionize the UI from the ground up, any more than we could start making cars with radically different controls. People learn one thing, and WILL NOT leave it. They don't want to take the time and effort necessary to really learn it. We need to work on making consumers smart before we can start being revolutionary and expect them to buy it.
> o we have two layers to deal with, when we
... ...
...
> could have just one.
Well KDE could have one - but KDE would be
restricted to the speed of Orbit then - which
might give satisfying results for small
applications but if you start to develop big
well go ahead and see yourself
> KDErs wouldn't use ORBit (which is fast)
DCOP is faster. And that's what users will care about.
> Finishing up the ORBit C++ bindings would have
> been easier than inventing this DCOP crap,
wrong.
> and just as fast
wrong, too.
> I forgot, NIH
NIH? - NIH! The KDEers have considered to use
Orbit several times - but it always turned out
to be the inferior solution.
C.S.: Go and get some sheep
so we have two layers to deal with, when we could have just one. All because mico is slow, and the KDErs wouldn't use ORBit (which is fast). Finishing up the ORBit C++ bindings would have been easier than inventing this DCOP crap, and just as fast. Oops, I forgot, NIH.
So now instead of getting C, python and PERL bindings for free, they have to port DCOP. And DCOP/C will most likely end up just as useless as Qt/C.
Don't overhype
GNOME people always try to overhype.
UI Consistency
Every gnome apps break their UI consistency. Maybe this got to do with cut-and-paste programming in C compare to OOP in KDE
Office Suite
Where the hell is the GNOME office suite. What I see is just a bunch looseless apps with different and funny UI working together.
Tu es con ou quoi ? KDE est parti d'allemagne ! Are you stupid ? KDE is born in Germany !
a Biscuit!
Have you tried Powdermilk Biscuits?
My, they're tasty, and expeditious...
thank you.
So now Debian's new version will come out and the kernel will be behind, XFree86 will be behind, KDE will be behind. Lucky we have apt-get!
1) I'm not sure why you are discussing linking, it's the legality of distributing GPLed KDE programs that link to QT free edition that is in question.
2) "the GPL imposes no restrictions upon the original author, who chose to link with QT" correct, the KDE developers and Troll Tech aren't breaking any laws by just developing GPLed kde apps or qt.
3) "the GPL makes exceptions for code included with the OS" correct, but largely irrelevant to the major distributors due to the exception to the exception. (The exception doesn't apply to QT if it is distributed with the GPLed KDE app).
4) "Furthermore, the source code for Qt is included with every major distribution, including Debian" Correct and relevant, as it would be foolish of those distributors not to have obtained legal advice on this issue.
5) "Finally, you have implicit permission to link KDE to Qt by the very fact that it already does so" Correct and relevant, as this fact would make it difficult for KDE application developers to sue distributors of those applications.
6) If people are really interested in the legality of distributors GPLed KDE apps I suggest they read the arguments of Mr. Andreas Pour on debian-legal where he has argued to at least my satisfaction that distributing GPLed KDE apps is and always has been legal. (Or at least as legal as distributing any other GPLed work)
7) I have consulted several lawyers including a copyright lawyer about the legality of distributing GPLed apps I have contributed.
8) These lawyers agree with Mr Pours interpretation of the GPL. In that firstly the GPL is not a good software license and that it is possibly invalid, and secondly that the arguments raised on debian legal stating that it is illegal to distribute GPL kde apps are without merit.
9) Even if the GPL is valid in the US/AUS/UK/NZ/ZA there is strong evidence that is in not valid in some European countries.
10) Those from debian legal arguing that distributing KDE apps is illegal have no legal qualifications that I am aware of.
11) The GPL is a software license not a software program, it is best interpreted by legal professionals not software developers.
I think it is time for Debian to seek professional legal help.
Don Sanders.
Choice, that's right boys and girls choice is why I will take the linux desktop over the MAC or win32 anyday. To Me Linux is about choice, and the ability to have my OS anyway I want. On another note, linux may not have the easiest to use desktop, but considering that linux has only really been a real desktop option in the last year and half I would say it is maturing nicely. After all the Apple has been at it for years, and it took M$ near 6 years and 4 versions just to get the original win95 desktop. So stop bitching aready.
And don't forget; "Hello World" version 10000.0.0 is about to be included in RedHat 10.0 next week!
C is binary compatable only by chance. Read the Stroustrup interview on slashdot for his explanation.
The first problem exists in many languages, and it doesn't matter all that much. The second problem is completely avoidable. Ancient language designs like C, C++, Fortran, and a few others have it. Modern languages avoid it because it causes big headaches for practical software development: systems need to be robust against the most common changes during software evolution (addition of new members) and need to detect when incompatible changes are made. The fact that C and C++ don't do this is simply laughable.
Really cool that we'll get fully working office apps and a stable desktop with plenty of features! Looking forward seeing Kdevelop and Magelland and all other cool K-stuff!
I suggest a remedial mathematics course. You're only number two this time. Number two comes *after* number one.
Just thought you should know.
--
Adam Frey
Crimson Networks
http://www.crimsonnet.net
Please take a look at CVS before you open your mouth. ALmost none of this stuff is wishware. It's all there, and it's all pretty good right now. They just want it more solid and more stable before it gets out. Magnwa
Whoah there, easy tiger. I'm not entirely sure why you've got such a hair up your arse but it does seem like bitterness. I mean let's face it, all of your favourite games and apps are probably only on Windows right? You want to run Linux but you can't. Aaah, poor baby.
And for all this "inherent unstability" that Windows has according to the majority of Slapdashers my Windows box (either the one at home - Win95 - or my NT box at work) hasn't crashed once in as long as I can remember. The majority of system crashes are caused by either poor programming or poor system setup. Have you been playing with the registry when you shouldn't have?
And as for Open Source, Jesus, grow up. Open source isn't the sole property of Linux you know. If you and your schoolmate chums wanted to you could write a Windows application and make GPL it. If you can't do that then stop whining about others that haven't - at least they've done something rather than nothing.
Yeah, wish in one hand and defecate in the other, see which fills up first.......
Do you do this often? Does it feel nice? How mature of you.
Thank you.
KDE is not wishware ... it offers a fully-functional desktop on top of Linux RIGHT NOW. You people who whine and complain about what KDE doesn't have should stop your pissing and moaning and BE GRATEFUL that KDE brings at least 90% of the useability and functionality of the Windows/Mac/whatever desktop right on Linux.
Despite what you might like to believe in your furious zealotry people can and do have different opinions from you. Not everyone has to be a clone of yet every other Linux sheep, following the shepherd of ESR and Linux Torveldes. Just because I happen to say something you don't like you start ranting like a child throwing a temper tantrum. How mature, like much of /. nowadays.
Why should I BE GRATEFUL (emphasis yours) that KDE have bought out a desktop which I don't enjoy using and thick is forcing Linux into becoming another Microsoft clone? It offers nothing to me I couldn't find on another OS, but at least there it would be far better implemented. And it hasn't got a fully configurable panel - you can't create new behaviours for it.
And as for better integration, what do you mean that only half of all Linux apps will now work in a totally non-standard way with regards to keyboard and mouse commands? I mean for an OS with console-based roots you'd have thought that keyboard shortucts would be something they'd get right. At least in Windows you can do 99% of things with the keyboard, which gives it plus points over KDE anyday.
P.S. CAPITALS are the SIGN of a SMALL mind. Thank you.
The KDE 1.x.x series did use CORBA but KDE 2.x.x will not. The KDE team has replaced it with KDE Parts, which is not CORBA. If you want a object oriented desktop then gnome is better with true CORBA and bonobo objects, but none of that stuff should really matter to a regular user.
You heard it here first.
Yeah, you're right!
But don't forget Mozilla, GCC 3.0, Debian GNU/Linux 2.2, and the most important of all, growing Linux support of the gaming industry!
Okay, maybe I should have called Mozilla "whatwere" as in "What? What the hell caused it to crash now?". I mean let's face it, it's a nice idea but a terrible browser. Open source seems to have failed in everything except the kernel and Apache. Everything else is pretty much a pipe dream. And a crack pipe at that.
The KDE team is popular, and they colaborate with the Gnome team.
What a bunch of heroes. They could be the nicest bunch of people on the face of the planet, but it doesn't make any difference to the inferior product they produce. Nasty people make good software and nice people make bad software.
Thank you.
So, open source have failed for KDE? Let's analyze why it has failed:
It has bring a stable, coherent, easy to use and pretty desktop. Should it have not failed, we will have an unstable, uncoherent, hard to use (try to edit Windows register without fucking up everything... Really hard) and crappy desktop like Windows bring.
It has bring a powerfull and free IDE (KDevelop) Should it have not failed, we will have a powerfull-but-bloated, ultra-extensive and fully proprietary IDE like Visual Studio.
It will bring very soon a fully free office suite, with portable and documented file format (kind of tared XML). Should it have not failed, we would have a fully extensive office, with proprietary, strange and unusable file format, incompatible with their equivalent of the other versions of the suite, like do MS-Office.
The KDE team is popular, and they colaborate with the Gnome team. Should it have not failed, they will be hotly hated and will kill a non-kde coder rather than work with him/her, like the guys at Redmond.
I like to use KDE and its application. Should it have not failed, I would hate it, as for Windows98.
Yes, indeed, a complete failure.
Sounds like you guys need an IT Director with some balls and a notion of standardization. I've been in big corporations where lack of a standard set of software really hurt. When I left they were starting to make a change but they move slower than molasses in winter.
How did it get a +2 off the start ?
should be:
Lame, Troll, OFF-TOPIC !!
Isn't fun to have a -230 karma ?
Is their a prize for the worst karma ever ?
or would that start a bad trend ? lol
I'm glad to see that X=4, KDE=2, and maybe, soon enough RH=7. But everytime I boot up my linux, I REALLY miss my quick keys. Mice are for people who have time on their hands.
-Oy Vey
Yes collaborate with the imperialistic, control-freak, human-rights abusing, gun-toting americans instead.
I disagree. Personnaly, I almost never use Gnome, that I find too unstable. But Gnome will survive KDE2, and both desktop environment will continue to coexist for a long while. I think that, in the end, both project will more or less merge -or at least become further and further compatible; as both team are reinforcing collaboration.
And for Konqueror... Yes, I wait for it too, to throw away this bloated Netscape I rely on for Java/Javascript web pages.
You have to admit that Linux is still the impetus for all of this change ... Sure my SPARCstation desktop will look much prettier when KDE2 is out but my Linux workstation is getting closer to being as stable as a SPARC running Solaris and 10x more functional (in ways).
It would be nice if the KDE folks could issue a statement on whether GPL'd stuff could be linked to Qt2, maybe even contact the FSF's lawyers and get their opinions. There may be some legit issues here, or at least legit questions, and it would be nice to clear the air.
And I had hoped the Qt licensing troubles would be gone with the QPL. Sigh . . .
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it. Apparently Debian finds that the QPL conflicts with the GPL because the requirement in the QPL that modifications be distributed "in a form that is separate from the Software, such as patches" supposedly stomps on the GPL's requirement that no additional restrictions other than the ones the GPL imposes may be applied to GPL'd software--or something like that. You can find out the full scoop in the archives of the debian-legal mailing list. It looks like KDE's not *quite* out of the woods yet.
> While I applaud the efforts of both the KDE and Gnome communities
>neither of them are actually resulting in a commercial grade UI
>(Windows is not a commercial grade UI either IMO). Its a fantastic
>effort to make the interface more usable but as Jakob Nielsen said on
>Slashdot these are not revolutionary steps but the same old things
>again.
Sigh. When will you UI freaks realize we don't *CARE* what Jakob Nielsen you think? You people have pretty much given UI design a bad name over the years with the bloated and useless crap (take a look at most WWW pages floating around today for an example of this nonsense that comes from the UI crowd). Small wonder most Slashdot users want nothing to do with you guys.
a) Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E work just fine on KDE, so you should at least try to find an example that actually is related to the real world.
b) All standard global keybindings in KDE are configurable, and can be made into packages. So, if you feel KDE keybindings are bad, change them, put your config file in the web somewhere, with a ten line explanation on how to install it, and call it a day.
When beating the KDE-vs-GNOME dead horse, there's something very important to keep in mind here. While most of us here are capable of switching between the two desktop environments, we are the Linux community. Most of the casual users being targeted here aren't part of the community, they're customers of the Linux industry.
Take a look at the commercial distributions and you'll find a nearly unanimous standardization on KDE - with RedHat being the obvious exception, of course, and Corel leading the charge.
Like it or not, while the Linux community is doing the parallel development thing, in the Linux industry, the race is pretty much over.
Yeah, I know about Eazel. Judging by the amount of hype they've generated, all I can say about them is: show me the code.
--
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
But QT is cross-platform. It can't be emphasized enough. If you link your program against QT, you'll be able to compile it on Windoze 95/98/NT/2000/or whatever the flavour of the month is, as well as any flavour of Unix and (I believe) Mac. Just think of how much development time and money it saves! Besides, QT2.0 has lots of features that MFC does not support, like themes for instance. Have you seen KDE 2.0 screenshots? It's an eyecandy.
___
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
jhittner wrote to us with more news about the release of the KDE 2.0 beta. We're currently looking at a release towards the end of this month. As well, there is a new timetable on the KDE development mailing list. Update: 03/14 01:26 by E: To be more clear - it is kdelibs 2.0 that are being frozen - KDEBase is frozen around the end of April.
No KDE beta is scheduled to be released. KDE is still in pre alpha stage. Kdelibs 2.0 are not being frozen, the binary interface to kdelibs is scheduled to be frozen at the end of this month. (Personally I think it's unrealistically optimistic). The kdelibs implementation has not been frozen nor has a freeze of kdelibs in general been scheduled. For instance things like the khtml implementation are in full speed development at the moment, and will continue to be developed after the kdelibs interface freeze due at the end of this month.
Basically nothing that has been reported is correct.
"Many developers" simply don't know C++ and this is precisely why they are supporting Gnome. ..
Once you try C++ GUI approach it is hard to justify going back to old C days
An alien interface with unknown conventions WILL prevent new users from using Linux
This is a phrase that I've heard way too often. The fact is that most of the world as yet to experience any desktop. So limiting functionality in an attempt to conform to some existing interface seems a waste of energy.
One of my Personal Favorite Things(tm) about using X as an interface is the customization and choice that I have. I have (and use) several different window managers and three desktop environments. Each of these has multiple themes, and each allows me to customize behaivour (to some extent). I would hate to see any of this freedom lost.
I'm hoping that both the KDE and GNOME projects find lots of success, and that they become more flexible as they evolve. I think that we are seeing this now and that it will continue, thanks to an open development process that allows people to add the little quirks that make a desktop environment more useful to them.
The one element that these projects should try hard to maintain is consistency in interface. Hopefully KDE and GNOME can even find some common points here. The only thing that will hold the free desktops back is if users have to learn different interfaces for each application they want to run.
Of course they do, or at least KDE does. Go into K control Panel. It even lets you choose which mouse button. On my computers with three buttons, I have it configured for the middle button. For my laptop with two buttons, I have it configured for the right button. I really miss this when I am in windows, like I am stuck with at work right now.
How far did you say a quantum leap was?
What the...? I think I saw a penguin...
set RANT 1 :( Sorry to all the developers I insulted out there but a groovy computing environment not archaic monoliths must prevail.
While I couldn't agree more in general with your sentiment I find it annoying that you feel you have to bash Windows when it obviously is a commercial grade UI. I run KDE at home and Gnome at work and while they both have their strengths and weaknesses they both pale in comparison to the current version of Windows (2000 pro) that I use!
This is really annoying, because I love linux, I love the culture and I admire the ideology and I worship the hackers. In my semi-experienced opinion the Linux kernel, development tools and networking daemons rock but X fundamentally sucks. You can't get around this. I know MS had to hack NT to get to be able to display windows remotely but the reason they had not implemented this in the first place was because 9they knew 9% of people will never use this functionality. It is so obvious a bunch of non-UI savvy hackers wrote the original X that we are stuck with.
The X protocol, what a joke. Cut 'n paste sucks on X. Drag 'n drop is non-existant. Gnome, KDE, their respective Panels and the various Window Managers don't talk to eack other. Kfm is rubbish, gmc is not much better. Both compared to MS explorer are pathetic. Netscape Communicator is painful to use after the sweet clean lines of Ie5 and Outlook Express. I know this is not the responsibility of either the KDE or Gnome crews but how on earth is Mozilla going be of any use if it is gtk+ based. It can't be is the short and honest answer. I can't even use ctrl-left arrow and ctrl-right arrow to go forwards and backwards word by word while i type this! Things have improved since I first used Slackware but we have to do something about X. Too closed. I just downloaded XFree86 4.0 which has been in development since 1998 and it didn't even pick up my old settings. How crap is that. I had to run that awful xf86config program which is a complete joke, as is xvidtune.
set RANT 0
I could go on but I'm getting too depressed
Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
As are all other *nixes that run KDE,Gnome and
Xfree.
-- I'm as unique as everyone else.
You have have a valid point. Much of the stuff I use in my day to day routine works well and I don't think about it...stuff like Emacs, egcs, the 2.2xx kernel, nethack, etc... And I also agree with you when you say that we tend to focus on what doesn't work and not all of the great stuff that does.
Maybe we are dealing more with how we define the word beta. I don't think that most beta software is bad.. in fact some beta software is better then the release software we see in some stores. So I'm not really saying that in a bad way.
For example, I use KDE 1.1 and it works very well for me, but I still think it's more beta quality than release quality. I have core dumps on a regular basis (kaudioserver is a repeat offender), I can blow kfm up in a matter of minutes by attempting to move a large number of files via drag and drop. I can bring my entire X session to it's knees and have to ctrl-alt-+ to kill it just by trying to attach a file in kmail...the list goes on and on. Release quality software should be better.
Are these showstoppers for me? No.. I have learned what makes it blow up (in most cases) and I don't do it. This is not a major problem for me but it's not why I use Linux. This is more a "Microsoft taught" way to use software. You learn what to avoid and the software becomes "better." I don't expect any software to be perfect, but I really would like to see the Linux community shoot for better than just stable.
I realize there is a newer release of KDE which may or may not fix some of these problems, but that too seems like the ol MS way of releasing broken stuff then putting out patch after patch. Most of the time I dont' have the time or energy to upgrade every package and the libs and the dev stuf...etc...it's a pain. I want to get a realease version that works and use it until something new comes out with features I need. However when I try something that is clearly marked as beta software, then I would expect little problems and I would expect to have to upgrade when the fixes are released. That is the nature of beta software VS release software.
Sheesh... I'm rambling on and on here...don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining or bitchin, I'm merely voicing a little frustration.
Quite true. It's nice to see the Gnome project putting some effort in to UI. There is a disturbing trend in the KDE project to use Windows keybindings instead of standard unix bindings. This is unfortunate for two reasons, first the Windows keybindings tend to penalize proficient typists, its far easier to do Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E from the home row than Home and End, for example. Second it leads to inconsistency of interface, which is a big no-no. I know the KDE people are trying to create K versions of every unix program in existence, but until this happens the users will be confused when one program behaves in the unix style and another behaves in the Windows style.
A lot of effort is being put into developing good code, it would be nice if some effort where put into investigating HCI literature and putting some of these principles to practice. I don't mean a radical departure from the WIMP interface, just a refinement.
I'm not saying Gnome and KDE are horrible, in fact I use KDE extensively on my home computer. I'm just saying that a little effort spent thinking about the UI (copying existing UIs where they are good and using different solutions when they are better) could make a very make the Linux desktop a thing of beauty.
I've been using Linux for about 5 years now. I used to be excited when version 0.3 of NewFangledThingie was released. I'd go get it, install it, and most likely it would work. Now there are more options and dependencies. I am growing a bit weary of downloading something only to find that I must upgrade several other pieces, and finally, when I think I've got everything I need, it doesn't work.
Oh yes, finishing ORBit. If I recall correctly, ORBit is not used in KDE because it simply doesn't ( or didn't at that time ) support things that were needed. So it would be a "bit" more that just finishing the C++ bindings. ... I'm actually neither CORBA nor DCOP expert, I just know what CORBA is and I've read both the ORBit and DCOP docs. The only real difference I mentioned was that there's actually no real difference between these two, maybe just DCOP being faster. Remote Procedure Call *shrug*. ... hey, that doesn't belong here, that's GNOME related.
As for DCOP being crap
NIH
No, actually- the KDE2.x series *was* based on CORBA, and you're right that it's been replaced- but they replaced it with DCOP, not KParts. KParts is the replacement for the KOM/OpenParts mess that they used to have- and the KParts stuff works. Fast as hell, too.
-Chris
"
kdelibs frozen March 30
documentation complete April 15
kdebase frozen April 21
translations complete April 30
"
Pardon the snippage. Allowing for things that will most certainly get delayed for one reason or another...
Speculation: Summer?
>When are we going to get a desktop for Linux that doesn't appear to have come from the Microsoft school of GUI design?
as soon as you start such a project.
btw: whats wrong with the Windows GUI? Guess it's a good GUI (I don't say it's pefect).
regards,
Joel
aka J-freak
Wow! The next distro I install will have:
-Linux 2.4
-XFree86 4.0
-KDE 2.0
-(gnome 1.2?)
That's a hell of a quantum leap. This is gonna do a lot of good to OSS
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
This is great news. I've been looking forward to KDE2 for a long time. Any good open source software is great. Advancements in open source GUI even better.
Combine this news with that increased co-operation between Gnome and KDE developers as well as cross-platform standards compliance like CORBA etc. and the future of the Linux desktop is looking cool.
-----
"I will be as a fly on the wall... I shall slip amongst them like a great
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Could you please tell me why there has to be a war between KDE and GNOME any more than there is between BASH and CSH, or Blackbox and IceWM? Why won't it end up that the people who like one use it, and those who like the other use it? With enough compatibility between the libraries of the two that its not a problem to port programs between them. Especially if the UI is seperated from the program code itself.
Personally, I don't like KDE. I don't care if its better looking, the interface feels too much like Win98's for my taste. At least, the versions I've used did. I don't like the single click or the browser integration, and from what I could tell, KDE didn't let you turn those off any more than Windows did.
I do realize, however, that there are people who like KDE. Go ahead and use it. It just means better software for everyone.
-RickHunter
--"We are gray. We stand between the candle and the star."
--Gray council, Babylon 5.
Sheesh, I wonder how I've been running a business with "whereware" and "wishware" for the last four years? I must be dreaming about replying to your post with my "whereware" browser, huh?
I just love the concept of calling the KDE unstable development version should be called KRASH.
Even in the free software arena, competition is good - KDE and Gnome may not be pushed by shareholders to improve the product, but whatever their motivations, competition occurs and we get better products,as per the more 'standard' business models out there.
hi, from the troll page the qt lib license is $1550.00 for one developer.
from pricewatch.com, W2K pro is $138.00 and Visual C++ pro is $250.00
so, unfortunately, i was way off. the situation is worse than i said! I can set up a developer with a legal copy of W2K and VC++ Pro for $388 or pay trolltech $1550 for a set of libraries.
bummer. it got worse.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
yes, i was thinking i might be able to pursuade them to open the source and obviate the need for the license, but it (honestly) would have to be reviewed by our parent company and our lawyers...and that's expensive, too -- maybe more expensive than the trolltech qt libraries in the first place.
plus, the code is literally useless for anyone without our hardware or the proprietary code from the third parties (which we could never release).
with the w2k/vc++ option, we don't have to release the useless (to anyone else) code, it's almost 1/4th the price, the phb's are happy cuz they chose MS, no legal review, arrrrghhh.
i can tell i'm screwed. by this time next year, i bet we'll be switching to mshaft, and there won't be a thing i can do about it.
kde/qt just won't acknowedge how much they are hurting small tech companies. we don't want to go mshaft, but we just don't have any choice. we have masses of c++ code that would be kind of a bear to move to gtk. it's easier to sell phb's on kde than gnome. the programmers want gui builders and c++, and they're (increasingly) tired of linux's promises.
of course, i'll never stop fighting...but if they throw a fat dual pIII compaq on my desk with 1/2 gb. of ram, w2k, and vc++, i won't really have much choice but to just get on with it.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
look, i'll apologize up front for the people who get angry, but i have to ask:
has there been any movement, any at all, toward a free "qt" replacement? something like "gt" or whatever?
C++ needs to be available for Linux. I like Gtk and gnome, and Vdk/VdkBuilder, but I think KDE is better.
my employer writes proprietary s/w for our custom/low volume hardware sales. we only have a few installations, and the code doesn't run anywhere else. Some of our linked code is completely proprietary anyway. We can't release the source.
it literally costs 2X the Microsoft solution if we want to use KDE (the licensing of the Qt libs is more than twice the cost of W2K + Visual C++ pro).
If something has changed at TrollTech, I apologize for posting this. But it used to be something like $1200 per developer.
Please post some news on this if you know of any progress in this area. From my perspective, every day qt remains non-free is another day forward for Microsoft.
Thx,
S.D.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
KDE 2.0, Gnome 2.0, XFree86 4.0, the 2.4 kernel... Lot's of good stuff happening in relativly short order. Linux is becoming poised for great things.
>Great! YAWC (Yet Another Windows Clone). When are >we going to get a desktop for Linux that doesn't >appear to have come from the Microsoft school of >GUI design? I mean come on, it's nice to have a >GUI and all that rather than using console-based >tools with obscure command-line parameters, but >what does KDE offer that my Win2K box doesn't?
:-)
What KDE does offer?
a) it is *FREE* software (unlike w2k)
b) you can COMPLETELY *customize* your desktop environment (unlike w2k)
c) it is stable
It's my belief that KDE 2.0 has great potential to become the ultimate desktop environment on UN*X. This is due to the fact that it takes KDE's traditional strengths, and expands upon them with some GNOME-like wizardry and delicious eye-candy.
First, let's take a look at what KDE is already doing right. The KDE apps are elegant, simple, and extremely well-designed. KDE has been responsible for many non-hacker people I know switching to and staying with Linux. Unfortunately, the ease of use and superiority of design that were present in KDE 1.x came at the expense of GNOME's extreme customizability.
From what I've seen in Krash, it appears that the KDE team is working on this. K should now be themeable down to the widget level, and with a considerably more user-friendly theming interface than GNOME. Anyone for a real KDE aqua theme?
Of course, I'm aware that with Eazel, Nautilus, etc. GNOME is working from the other end to bring more ease of use to the already ultra-versatile platform they've built, but from all indications K will deliver the best of both words several months before GNOME will.
Anonymous Luddite: "What do you think of the dehumanizing effects of the Internet?"
Andy Grove: "Not Much."
You should REALLY try it out. Sorry to post this in a KDE discussion, but it just confuses me as to why people still think Gnome is unstable, the UNSTABLE releases havn't crashed once on me in Months. No exageration. Congrats to KDE, I'm looking forward to trying out the beta.
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Wishware my ass. Wishware is a Window$ product with up to eight virual desktops so you dont have to keep max-minimizing windows do do anything. A GUI that is not tied to the kernel so the GUI crashes the whole system. One with a choice of GUI's. Or the choice not to have a GUI. One with Open Source drivers that can be debugged so they don't crash...errr destabilize the system. Or be proved not to be buggy and the system itself is inherently unstable. With open source libraries instead of a mess of proprietary DLL's that disable each other's programs. One with a license that gives you rights instead of explaining you have none. One that cames with a free office suite. One that comes with a multitude of programming tools. Yeah, wish in one hand and defecate in the other, see which fills up first.......
"If I have seen further than other men it is because I have stood ont the shoulders of giants."
-Isaac Newton
"If I have made more money than other men it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants while my my legal team imprisoned and castrated them."
-William Henry the Third
KDE2 is no more based on CORBA, but is still compatible with it. The KDE team has devised with DCOP a lighter way to obtain the same things, in order to have a faster desktop. When CORBA is needed, a tiny daemon bridge is activated that transparently make it. I think this could slow down if you use KDE essentially for non-KDE CORBA applications, in which case you should consider using Gnome. For all KApplications, things will instead be speed up.
sigmentation fault
I disagree with "most of it is barely beta quality". It's just that we're more loikely to notice whan something don't work that when it works.
sigmentation fault
I share your disappointment with Mozilla. But you should ask yourself why is it "whereware" (cute term)? My answer: the developers don't know where to stop. (The commercial predecessor has the same problem.) It's got a zillion features which will never all get finished and which nobody will have time to learn. Which is one reason I'm excited by the simple, elegant KDE web browser.
Why run KDE instead of Win2K? For the end user, perhaps there isn't a lot of incentive -- now. But developers are starting to be disillusioned with that platform. The API is weird, undocumented, full of backward-compatible hacks, and much too big. Worst of all, it's owned by a bunch of bit-twiddlers who think it's OK to make everything you know totally obsolete every other year.
Now in the other corner we have an interesting triad: the Linux Kernel, the Qt library, and the KDE GUI. All three are owned by people who know the importance of an elegant, stable API. Some developers are going to write for this platform just for the pleasure of working in a sane environment!
Any competitor to Windows has to break out of the standard double-bind: nobody uses the platform because there aren't any apps, and there aren't any apps because nobody uses the platform. KDE has a good chance of breaking the circle.
Great! YAWC (Yet Another Windows Clone). When are we going to get a desktop for Linux that doesn't appear to have come from the Microsoft school of GUI design? I mean come on, it's nice to have a GUI and all that rather than using console-based tools with obscure command-line parameters, but what does KDE offer that my Win2K box doesn't?
I think that the state of play for Linux applications is in a sorry way. There seem to be two kinds of applications - the first being "whereware", as in "where the hell is the software" or "where's the final version". Let's face it, Mozilla falls into this catagory. Then there is "wishware" as in "I wish it did this" or "I wish it had feature X which equivalent Windows/Mac software did". This is where KDE is at IMHO. It seems the KDE team are stuck in the Windows GUI paradigm and are just trying to emulate rather than innovate. It is attitudes like this which are holding back the true success of Linux in the Microsoft market and preventing the only current OS of any worth from being accepted by the unwashed masses.
To the KDE team: please, less wishware, more software. Thank you.
The HelixCode chaps are writing something called Evolution which may go some way to solving your particular problems. From a look'n'feel point of view, it seems to be heavily inspired by Outlook 2000, and from reading the brief description at the above URL, it seems as though will have similar functionality. It's not clear it will support the (admittedly good) calendar/scheduling functionality as Outlook 2000, but I would guess that couldn't be too far away.
Ofcourse, this is for Gnome, rather than KDE, but i'm sure that chunks of it will be reusable by the KDE developers, or, at least, it should provide the push to get similar functionality under KDE (or is it already there?).
...j
Presumably you mean that its philosophy comes from the '60's, not that the language itself comes from the '60's, given that Dennis Ritchie indicates that this version of the original B Reference Manual is dated 1972, and C is a descendant of B, so C is from the '70's.
Well, C++ was already old technology by the time it was "invented" in the 1980's. The lack of runtime safety, dependence on storage layouts, and static approach to OOP it represents is more characteristic of the languages of the 1960's and 1970's. By the 1980's, dynamic OOP was already widely available.
This is one of the reasons why C++ is such a poor choice for implementing toolkits and other large libraries. Worse yet, if you break binary compatibility, most likely, you'll get memory corruption, often in some unrelated piece of code. The workaround that the KDE folks are taking, adding private member pointers, is also pretty cumbersome (I find that there are better approaches).
Altogether, I find this pretty depressing. We are in the year 2000, and people are still writing software and using tools like it's the 1970's.
Out of curiousity, does anyone know whether Debian plans to add KDE 2 to its mainline package lineup, as the QPL, unlike the Qt Free license, meets the DFSG?
I hope GNOME doesn't go away... the GNOME/KDE interaction has produced some good, and is bound to lead to more benefits.
.desktop file standard, Hopefully leading to easier packaging of applications.
GNOME/KDE collaboration has led to the development of a Window Manager standards (no more wierd WM-specific hints making incompatibilities all over the place).
There is also now a
There's probably more, that I can't think of/don't know about...
Well, take the same group, and imagine them talking about which Office suite they wanted to use..............Ayup
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at in your post. I mean, "way to go" to the KDE team and all, but what Microsoft Office user in their right mind would really want to give it up to use KOffice?
I have a feeling that there's some corporate version of Slashdot out there, and the guys in your company are posting about this one IT guy who wants to ram his favorite platform (plus ideology) down their throats.
I've gotta admit, if I manage to find that corporate Slashdot, I'll be moderating that guy's post up.
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This is a pretty ignorant statement. First of all, gnome has C++ bindings and there are a number of gnome hackers that use C++ as their primary language. Secondly, it isn't so much the language, but rather the environment and libraries that the developers in the gnome camp prefer.
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Celebrate the finer things in life
Your prediction will most certainly fail. Watch and see. Perhaps what you are overlooking is that different users prefer different things. I will grant you that KDE is more advanced than Gnome in some areas, primarly in the number of applications they have available. However, many developers prefer hacking in the Gnome environment much better than that KDE environment. And Gnome is doing things now that KDE can't do or hasn't yet. Both environments have their strengths. I can also think of at least 3 companies that are putting extensive amounts of money and manhours into improving Gnome (RHAD Labs, Eazel, and Helix Code). These companies aren't going to just drop their work on Gnome once KDE 2 comes out. You also say that KDE "looks" better. Let me remind you that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally find KDE to be hideous compared to Gnome. This is not a bash-KDE comment. Honestly, I love what KDE is doing. I keep up with the KDE development news, love looking at new screenshots, reading about KOffice and other such projects, and wish them all the luck. And I think the competition between Gnome and KDE is healthy. Neither community is going away anytime soon. I can assure you of that.
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Celebrate the finer things in life
Will you gives specific examples of what you'd like to see. What would the ideal interface look like?
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Celebrate the finer things in life
Eric
Okay lets try it for the simple crowd. Jakob Nielsen is a GUI designer, most Websites are designed by Graphic Designers. These are mostly interested in pretty pictures and bright fluffy graphics.
These also do not make a good UI. A GUI designer is about simplicity and ease of interaction. As a GUI designer I understand where your misunderstanding is comming from. But that is my point with KDE, technically they are brilliant, UI wise they lack certain skills. In the same way as most Web Sites are from the WILI school but on the excessive graphics and roll-overs side.
There is a happy medium that equals an effective interface. If you want a cracking example of a good interface, look at some commercial devices (videos et al) and see how easy or hard an interface can make a product to use.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
>I find it annoying that you feel you have to
> bash Windows when it obviously is a commercial > grade UI.
I understand what you mean by this, but IMO Windows is not a commercial grade GUI (some of my previous work has been in designing Air Traffic Control working positions) it contains too many "clever" touches and several inconsistent features in the major products. The use of pointless icons that are never used is widespread and the excessive use of pointless colours is just window dressing for the bored.
The Mac is better but is far from perfect.
Maybe its time to revolutionise the UI from the ground up ? Tech, interoperability, interaction model and look and feel.
Trouble is this would require IMO a bigger effort than that to get Linux off the ground. Who is the next Linus ?
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I predict KDE 2 will probably signal the beginning of the end of the GNOME/KDE struggle - its been fun, but KDE appears to be keeping one generation ahead, and is certainly better looking.
Hopefully Konquerer will be ready soon and add another option for browsing.
Great idea, but you must understand the corporate mindset.
Allow me this opportunity to explain. While these maye be up and coming products, the corporate mindset will hamper them unbelievably in many ways. I know it's difficult to believe, but I've just sat through a meeting wherein there was huge debate, discussion, and shouting about scheduling programs. In the end, despite the fact that we have IN-HOUSE SOFTWARE developed for controlling our entire operation, The Sales Execs involved insisted on a seperate scheduler. Including the Managing Director of the Corporation.
After ooo-ing and aaa-ing and also punching eachother, the agreement was - unbelievably, to buy a NEW server, put NT on it, put EXCHANGE Server on it, and use OUTLOOK 2000!!! I gaped. This after we have thousands of dollars of Sun hardware and Netscape, ACT, and other software - (all of which was tried for scheduling) - unfortunately, the Execs didn't like any of it.
I explained that the implications of running Exchange were dire. It can be somewhat tuned into stability, but requires massive resources. Not only the kit - which will end up being no less than $10,000 I'm sure - but the software licenses (NT, Exchange, CAL's) - which will undoubtedly come to nearly as much as the kit!! maybe more !!
How can anyone explain all this, just for 12 Sales Execs to schedule their meetings/etc etc?
THAT is the Corporate Mindset.
Now, what, you might be thinking, does this have to do with KDE Office? Well, take the same group, and imagine them talking about which Office suite they wanted to use..............Ayup. You get the idea.
-C.Villopillil
no sig
I checkedout KDE2 and KOffice this weekend and gave it a runthrough. Very impressive.
:-)
No, it's not stable yet, that's why they call it "pre-alpha". But it's still very nice and I can't wait for the final release.
It looks gorgeous! Makes Gnome look like it was drawn with crayons (hey, it's a joke, stop the flames alright!) Kudos Mosfet! It also loads much, much faster than KDE1 or Gnome. Konqeror kicks butt. KOffice will make Bill Gates very nervous when it's released. He should get his resume cleaned up
In short, KDE 2.0 will be the first Free Software desktop with the quality and finish that commercial users expect (but never get).
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
While I applaud the efforts of both the KDE and Gnome communities neither of them are actually resulting in a commercial grade UI (Windows is not a commercial grade UI either IMO). Its a fantastic effort to make the interface more usable but as Jakob Nielsen said on Slashdot these are not revolutionary steps but the same old things again. Most of KDE and Gnome away from the interface itself is fine, its just that last bit to the user that fails to reach the heights that the more pure technology aspects of Linux reach.
Is it time for some Cathedral to enter the Bazaar to enforce an interaction metaphor and a look and feel onto the Linux world rather than the continuing rise of the WILI (Well I like It) school of GUI design.
Don't get me wrong, KDE and Gnome are superb as technology projects but as UIs they fail to reach even the marsh land set by Windows let alone the heights that could be reached.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
If you're using Red Hat Linux or something similar, you don't even need to recompile. There are daily CVS snapshots available from
http://people.redhat.com/bero/experimen tal.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
The KDE 2.0 release schedule drowned out the fact that the KDE 2.0-based Lotus Notes++ clone Magellan was made available by rsync today. The combination of Magellan, KOffice, KDevelop and KDE2 will meet most of MY requirements, atleast. :)
-- Einar
Over the past few months, I have become friends with some of the core developers of KDE and then some not-so-core developers, but still developers. They convinced me to at least give KDE2 a try. I'd recommend that anyone interested, tries it. Every other Saturday, I run cvsup and update all my KDE2 stuff and recompile it. It's not too hard at all to do. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But it's going to be a great environment when they're through with it. ./configure, make sure you do ./configure --prefix=/opt/kde2/ I do that, and it keeps both environments totally separate of eachother. For qt2.1, do --prefix=/opt/qt2.1/ Not too hard, is it?
In regards to their timeframe, I have noticed that when I do cvsup, the most edited packages are either kdelibs or kdebase, mostly kdelibs. I do agree, it's an agressive schedule, but I do think that they can complete it.
For those who want to try KDE2, but want to keep KDE1.x, when you
Uhh, I thought the schedule said that kdelibs will be frozen by the end of this month, and the first beta is planned to be released around May.
Here's what I found on the KDE News Page: The schedule is very aggressive, with a true KDE 1.9 beta due out at the beginning of May. Looks like the final release is still a few months away!
There is a HTML version of the KDE 2.0 Release plan up at http://deve loper.kde.org/development-versions/kde-2.0-release -plan.html.