Ok, what are you smoking? Every MS O/S I've run since Win98SED (except ME) has not had a general problem with dislocating things on it's own. It's only when you start adding in 3rd party stuff that I've ever had problems with my box. And I'VE (note the subject, not other people, myself) never had to reformat my own box due to Windows corruption. If you're truly IT or sysadmin, then you shouldn't have had to ever reformat your own box either. QED, Windows doesn't break on it's own. If you have had that happen, spell it out for me.
You start talking about viruses, but last I checked, the MS compile cluster doesn't build viruses into the codebase (regardless the jokes) so we're still talking about 3rd party introduction into one system.
And defrags and disk scans are not the realm of sysadmin's only, or why would they be in XP Home, or Vista Home? Methinks you think the user is too unskilled. And the last I checked, every so often when I boot my system into Linux it runs fsck automatically, (yeah, it can be reconfigured on the number of reboots inbetween) but it does that because you MUST check your fs every so often, no matter what system you're running on. I've seen ext3 have crosslinks on clusters, but only once or twice, and that several years ago on an abused box.
Now, as for your point that viruses and rootkits and worms etc shouldn't exist, I agree, but just because nobody has broken into your house, does that mean you shouldn't have any sort of security system? Where do you live, I would love a place I can walk into without a key and take what I like. Since computers must allow programs to run (hence the reason MS has started both asking for signed applications/drivers and the reason for UAC) then viruses et al are a necessary worry, hence the needs for AV et al.
As far as Office including VBA, you've obviously never used it in a business setting. It far outweighs not having VBA available. I for one am happy it's there.
Care to clarify again? But this time, clarify how you've had problems, not general spouts of "this suxors"
Oh I agree, that's why I thought I posted here about being a deb-rat. I didn't? Ah well, nothing lost I suppose.
But yes, I agree, drivers_testing and drivers_signed works for me. Drivers_unstable I prefer to go and get myself on Windows, as opposed to deb, because most people are familiar with the Windows Control Panel. Most people couldn't sit down today and enable Synaptic (purposely choosing GUI) and add extra repos to their list. But they would look at it in Windows and say "yummy, faster drivers" and totally ignore the whole _unstable bit. So don't give them that option to totally bork their drivers on themselves, or they'll think that it's some kind of bad idea. More people put stock in the latest drivers than you might realize, at least in my experience.
So how long do you reckon until MS comes up with a system like this, and how long till it stops getting updated?
You're assuming that Windows will break on it's own, but I'm assuming that MS is trying to create a product that is robust and attempts to stand up to outside attacks.
NTFS does not remain consistent without needing an external tool to fix it. Hello chkdsk.
Wouldn't it be easier if the system as delivered by the manufacturer would automatically heal itself and just allow you to use the computer to "work"?
So what you seem to be complaining about is that you are back to a perceived 1GHz level of performance, on a box with over 2.5 GHz of capacity, minimum. Meaning, it feels like you are moving backwards. However, most "computer users" since there are over 2 billion of them on the planet, don't want to learn how to heal their computers, they just want them to work. They want the computer to ask for permission to install updates. That's their whole ideal. "Don't install crap, but install all the good stuff for me." MS tries to negate the need for an apt-alike by just preinstalling stuff like DX or.NET, alleviating the need to check for dependencies.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm a deb-head, I run Ubu on several workstations at work to show people that "Linux is not evil or bad, it looks a lot like what you are used to" but they still are skeptical.
ONLY IF the vendors report to WindowsUpdate that there are new drivers, then due to the fact that Microsoft will only distribute signed drivers, they have to be tested, which means a delay of like a week or more. So yeah, it's possible to get them through WU, but both MS and the vendor have to work together. I've talked with some folks from MS and they're rather bureaucratic over there so it's not exactly like there's a team of five guys whose job it is to oversee something like this.
If there was, I'ld be worried for the apt repos and the like, because MS would finally be on the track to easy user interfaces and easily working systems.
Could that be due to the 3MB download versus the 300MB download? Have you seen the latest reader suite? It's ungodly.
But yeah, I've been having my office users use Foxit more and more. Most love it, except for the one holdout that swears we should open all PDFs in Acrobat 5 so we can edit them, just in case we need to edit them. My response? Open Acrobat 5, File, Open, find PDF, Edit, Save.
wrong... any small shop with about $300 to spare is going to get Microsoft Action Pack or something similar and have a full copy of SBS and all their office and XP and they will run SBS to handle exchange, etc. Then the only cost is acquiring more user licenses, but those are going to exist no matter what....
I'm gonna call Sage and AutoDesk on you as two companies offering software for what you're suggesting. Just saying is all. But I'm not going to claim that the Sage products will do what you need, only that they are a large org offering the same product that you seem to think doesn't exist.
you shouldn't feed the trolls. when they catch wind of this, they're going to post asinine comments like how come their post wasn't first then, not realizing that perception is forward regardless of the flow of time.
Well, two things. I have verified documents that show that my family did too, on both sides, and then there was my second point, that if it was a legislatively allowed happening according to a constitutional change (thus asking for +80% of the pop to vote for it) then there would be no second civil war.
But then again, I believe* in the titor story, so I'm waiting for the second one anyways.
* Just like I believe in electrons. I can't see them, but they sound like the best answer so far.
Can you talk about 250 million others into thinking the same as you? If you can just convince them to pass a little bit of legislation making it an official right of ours, I'll help lead the charge for us to separate. I think it would be in our best interest, especially if we can gain most favored nation status pending our departure. I'll then propose that we conquer your so called Mexico by force, as the Union forces once did, but we won't give it back. Then we'll be able to sell you oil at open market prices and profit like mad.
Mad I tell you, MAD!!!!!
Bwah hah ha ha ha!
But seriously, only about 250 Million others should swing the vote enough. Start canvassing. I'll start arming our populace. Oh look, I'm nearly done. Your move.
Well yeah I agree about the "Will Wright stamp of approval".
You'll notice I was responding to an AC, so took a little liberty in making myself a "Will Wright" fanboi, but have a look at a little more obtuse game, that looks like it was the progenitor of Spore:
SimLife is one of those that really makes you scratch your head. Compare also SimEarth, SimPark and SimAnt. Then there's the SimTower that was never part of the Sim series.
But then again, WW was responsible for the SimCity series, and that's one that most of us grew up on. I know I started with SimCity Classic and then loved SC2k and SC3, etc, so that's what I base my opine on. I have never personally played The Sims, so don't count me in the group of having to live through an avatar. Sounds cute, if you're a 14 yo girl. I'm not, so it never sounded that great. But most of us know a 14yo girl (or one that used to be 14 in the past 10 years), so we can at least ask someone if it was any good.
I think the key here is that WW has a knack for picking game concepts that are going to be intriguing. This one seems to have taken some of the best bits of several games and done a mashup, so we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.
As for me, if I have to pay $100 (or whatever) and then cough up another $xx to play online monthly, then I pass. I refuse to play those games, based on I've got better things to do with my time. But if it's like SC and battlenet [when I played SC on bn, it was free... don't know anymore], then I might check things out for $50 (US).
Okay, so it's got elements of SimLife (which took a great amount of Skill) and it's got elements of SimCity (which took a deft amount of SittingAroundWaiting) and it's got elements of The Sims (which took, ok - you're right, no Skill at all, rather maybe Charisma) and then it's got elements of SimCity (not really).
But c'mon, it's made by the same guy who made those other titles (or at least signed off on them) Will Wright. Generally every game he says is good for RTM is a platinum deal. If he doesn't sign the X then you won't like it (maybe). WoW? Diablo? SC? Ah, who cares about those, this is SimXYZ... Oh? Civ? Yeah, that's Sid Meiers, best check down the hall on that one...
Speaking of Mom and Pops, I for one welcome this change (no memes intended).
I'm getting tired of having my mom and dad (not to mention the other umpteen dozens of people in my life who are in the same boat) call and ask what program xyz does, when I don't have their computer, have never heard of xyz, and can only make broad guesses as to the purpose of the program based on the name. I mean, sure, most are genuinely helpful, but it's not like computers come with big thick welcome guides anymore like they used to.
Anything that helps make life easier for my mom or dad when they get a new computer helps make my life easier as a side effect, and I'm okay with that. Plus, it helps us to figure out what's supposed to be there when we come over and work on their computers. Hopefully it will also be the end of my sister-in-laws complaining that their free game that came with their computer just closed on them and won't re-open... This always leads me to have this fun and exciting conversation
"Did you read the screen or did you just call me instead?... Uh huh, now read me what it says... Uh huh, so when it says you've played for an hour and you should now purchase the game, what does that mean to you?... Well I would guess that it was a free trial, to get you hooked, so that you will give them money. I would suggest that you get up and walk away from the computer though, as you'll need to come up for air instead of playing [the same bakery game with lots of different skins so it looks like a dog salon or whatever]... No, I don't know where to get the full version for free... No, I won't just 'make it work', you'll have to pay the $$$... Okay, well I'm at work, bye!"
It seems to be a two-parter. One is a payload and one is a "diverter". Let the AV deal with the obvious threat, the diverter, and let the payload get on the system. Perhaps someone has done something else to the box? All I know is I got mad SMTP outbound connections from this box for no good reason.
Yeah, those two. You'll have to admit though that the judges were rather overly judgemental of those same two young women, and that they really did do a much better job than they were given credit for.
I mean, here's the thing. When the chinese girl almost fell off the beam, and she scored higher than most of the other girls, how did they come up with that score?
lemme guess, most common infection name is Antivirus XP 2008?
I've started having those pop up left and right, and you are correct, once you think you have the virus gone, you think you're clean. EEEEEEE wrong. There's actually a botnet hiding behind that virus load, and if you don't pull it off, it does it's own direct port 25 push. I've three computers in my near vicinity that all have that loaded on their systems, and at first I was ready to wipe the frigging machine.
Aw man, why'ld you have to go and tell him what the deal was. I thought we were going to wait till he had lowered his defenses and then offer to show him nude celebrities and celebrity sex videos for free. Sheesh, you spoilsport.
Speaking of 13-year olds winning gold medals, wasn't that judging a little unfair in the women's gymnastics competition last night? Several of the chinese girls routines had obvious faults with practically no deduction, and when the romanian (i think she was romanian, white and blue suit) and the american girls (like NL) put on nearly perfect routines and got almost full point deductions, I was floored.
Now, I know this is pitifully OT, but still. WTF is up with the judges blindness last night? Three girls gave the best performances of the night, and yet the judges couldn't wait but to call the technical division and demand to know what the girls had done wrong so that they could deduct points; it was amazing. I'm pretty sure 4 or 5 somebodies got paid off two days ago...
For much the same reason why I moved up to a single more expensive server. I can run my original SBS install now on any server that supports VMWare vm's instead of the failing POS that it had been installed on (before I adopted it, natch), and I can continually upgrade the underlying hardware without windows kvetching at me when I do. Plus, since the cost of hardware is much cheaper for one system than ten ($3500 for a low-end virtualization server, versus $600 apiece for six desktop boxes), I can run up to at least ten virtualized workstations and reuse my old boxes to simply connect to the vm using RDP or what have you, and seem to have a much faster network, without a massive outlay of funds for new hardware. Sure, we all want a new desktop, but really we just want to work. And nobody here has adopted dual screen computing besides myself, so...
The more important variant of that question is does the parent want to share enough of the details of operation (clean room style) to get someone to want to write an OS equiv.
Don't misunderstand me, I like to write code, but if I don't know what the hole looks like, I can't carve a peg to fit it...
Okay, I'll grant you virt is hot shit right now, and that EMC is doing some really keen things, but I also think that in the global scheme of things you have to remember the graphics workstations on which virt is not an option, as well as the entire home market. But if you're going to talk about MS losing share, so long as CEOs and CFOs are using MS at home (where virt is not so hot right now) then virt won't be the #1 in IT. Trust me, I am looking forward to virt'd desktops, in a big way. But for desktop virting, look to what Citrix is doing, lest you leave out a big name. That's a MS acq I'm waiting to see happen.
All that aside, we have a MS Partnership also, and we use the MAP to great benefit, and I got stern looks over using "that linux stuff" and "those tech toys" rather than hosting it on Win2K3 myself, but the performance is well worth the PHB-iness, so I just went ahead. My only benefit is that I'm IT for this shop, so I have a tad more leeway. More's the pity for the guy at the large shop.
Slashdot Mirror
Ok, what are you smoking? Every MS O/S I've run since Win98SED (except ME) has not had a general problem with dislocating things on it's own. It's only when you start adding in 3rd party stuff that I've ever had problems with my box. And I'VE (note the subject, not other people, myself) never had to reformat my own box due to Windows corruption. If you're truly IT or sysadmin, then you shouldn't have had to ever reformat your own box either. QED, Windows doesn't break on it's own. If you have had that happen, spell it out for me.
You start talking about viruses, but last I checked, the MS compile cluster doesn't build viruses into the codebase (regardless the jokes) so we're still talking about 3rd party introduction into one system.
And defrags and disk scans are not the realm of sysadmin's only, or why would they be in XP Home, or Vista Home? Methinks you think the user is too unskilled. And the last I checked, every so often when I boot my system into Linux it runs fsck automatically, (yeah, it can be reconfigured on the number of reboots inbetween) but it does that because you MUST check your fs every so often, no matter what system you're running on. I've seen ext3 have crosslinks on clusters, but only once or twice, and that several years ago on an abused box.
Now, as for your point that viruses and rootkits and worms etc shouldn't exist, I agree, but just because nobody has broken into your house, does that mean you shouldn't have any sort of security system? Where do you live, I would love a place I can walk into without a key and take what I like. Since computers must allow programs to run (hence the reason MS has started both asking for signed applications/drivers and the reason for UAC) then viruses et al are a necessary worry, hence the needs for AV et al.
As far as Office including VBA, you've obviously never used it in a business setting. It far outweighs not having VBA available. I for one am happy it's there.
Care to clarify again? But this time, clarify how you've had problems, not general spouts of "this suxors"
Oh I agree, that's why I thought I posted here about being a deb-rat. I didn't? Ah well, nothing lost I suppose.
But yes, I agree, drivers_testing and drivers_signed works for me. Drivers_unstable I prefer to go and get myself on Windows, as opposed to deb, because most people are familiar with the Windows Control Panel. Most people couldn't sit down today and enable Synaptic (purposely choosing GUI) and add extra repos to their list. But they would look at it in Windows and say "yummy, faster drivers" and totally ignore the whole _unstable bit. So don't give them that option to totally bork their drivers on themselves, or they'll think that it's some kind of bad idea. More people put stock in the latest drivers than you might realize, at least in my experience.
So how long do you reckon until MS comes up with a system like this, and how long till it stops getting updated?
You're assuming that Windows will break on it's own, but I'm assuming that MS is trying to create a product that is robust and attempts to stand up to outside attacks.
NTFS does not remain consistent without needing an external tool to fix it. Hello chkdsk.
Wouldn't it be easier if the system as delivered by the manufacturer would automatically heal itself and just allow you to use the computer to "work"?
So what you seem to be complaining about is that you are back to a perceived 1GHz level of performance, on a box with over 2.5 GHz of capacity, minimum. Meaning, it feels like you are moving backwards. However, most "computer users" since there are over 2 billion of them on the planet, don't want to learn how to heal their computers, they just want them to work. They want the computer to ask for permission to install updates. That's their whole ideal. "Don't install crap, but install all the good stuff for me." MS tries to negate the need for an apt-alike by just preinstalling stuff like DX or .NET, alleviating the need to check for dependencies.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm a deb-head, I run Ubu on several workstations at work to show people that "Linux is not evil or bad, it looks a lot like what you are used to" but they still are skeptical.
ONLY IF the vendors report to WindowsUpdate that there are new drivers, then due to the fact that Microsoft will only distribute signed drivers, they have to be tested, which means a delay of like a week or more. So yeah, it's possible to get them through WU, but both MS and the vendor have to work together. I've talked with some folks from MS and they're rather bureaucratic over there so it's not exactly like there's a team of five guys whose job it is to oversee something like this.
If there was, I'ld be worried for the apt repos and the like, because MS would finally be on the track to easy user interfaces and easily working systems.
Could that be due to the 3MB download versus the 300MB download? Have you seen the latest reader suite? It's ungodly.
But yeah, I've been having my office users use Foxit more and more. Most love it, except for the one holdout that swears we should open all PDFs in Acrobat 5 so we can edit them, just in case we need to edit them. My response? Open Acrobat 5, File, Open, find PDF, Edit, Save.
I mean, really...
wrong...
any small shop with about $300 to spare is going to get Microsoft Action Pack or something similar and have a full copy of SBS and all their office and XP and they will run SBS to handle exchange, etc. Then the only cost is acquiring more user licenses, but those are going to exist no matter what....
http://www.obm.org/doku.php?id=obmoutlook
OBM Outlook
OBM Outlook is a non-free connector for synchronisation of Outlook with OBM.
I'm gonna call Sage and AutoDesk on you as two companies offering software for what you're suggesting. Just saying is all. But I'm not going to claim that the Sage products will do what you need, only that they are a large org offering the same product that you seem to think doesn't exist.
Now, quickbooks it may not be, but ...
you shouldn't feed the trolls. when they catch wind of this, they're going to post asinine comments like how come their post wasn't first then, not realizing that perception is forward regardless of the flow of time.
Well, two things. I have verified documents that show that my family did too, on both sides, and then there was my second point, that if it was a legislatively allowed happening according to a constitutional change (thus asking for +80% of the pop to vote for it) then there would be no second civil war.
But then again, I believe* in the titor story, so I'm waiting for the second one anyways.
* Just like I believe in electrons. I can't see them, but they sound like the best answer so far.
Can you talk about 250 million others into thinking the same as you? If you can just convince them to pass a little bit of legislation making it an official right of ours, I'll help lead the charge for us to separate. I think it would be in our best interest, especially if we can gain most favored nation status pending our departure. I'll then propose that we conquer your so called Mexico by force, as the Union forces once did, but we won't give it back. Then we'll be able to sell you oil at open market prices and profit like mad.
Mad I tell you, MAD!!!!!
Bwah hah ha ha ha!
But seriously, only about 250 Million others should swing the vote enough. Start canvassing. I'll start arming our populace. Oh look, I'm nearly done. Your move.
And the frist complete, correct, ontopic slashdot pos
Well yeah I agree about the "Will Wright stamp of approval".
You'll notice I was responding to an AC, so took a little liberty in making myself a "Will Wright" fanboi, but have a look at a little more obtuse game, that looks like it was the progenitor of Spore:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimEarth:_The_Living_Planet
SimLife is one of those that really makes you scratch your head. Compare also SimEarth, SimPark and SimAnt. Then there's the SimTower that was never part of the Sim series.
But then again, WW was responsible for the SimCity series, and that's one that most of us grew up on. I know I started with SimCity Classic and then loved SC2k and SC3, etc, so that's what I base my opine on. I have never personally played The Sims, so don't count me in the group of having to live through an avatar. Sounds cute, if you're a 14 yo girl. I'm not, so it never sounded that great. But most of us know a 14yo girl (or one that used to be 14 in the past 10 years), so we can at least ask someone if it was any good.
I think the key here is that WW has a knack for picking game concepts that are going to be intriguing. This one seems to have taken some of the best bits of several games and done a mashup, so we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.
As for me, if I have to pay $100 (or whatever) and then cough up another $xx to play online monthly, then I pass. I refuse to play those games, based on I've got better things to do with my time. But if it's like SC and battlenet [when I played SC on bn, it was free... don't know anymore], then I might check things out for $50 (US).
Okay, so it's got elements of SimLife (which took a great amount of Skill) and it's got elements of SimCity (which took a deft amount of SittingAroundWaiting) and it's got elements of The Sims (which took, ok - you're right, no Skill at all, rather maybe Charisma) and then it's got elements of SimCity (not really).
But c'mon, it's made by the same guy who made those other titles (or at least signed off on them) Will Wright. Generally every game he says is good for RTM is a platinum deal. If he doesn't sign the X then you won't like it (maybe). WoW? Diablo? SC? Ah, who cares about those, this is SimXYZ... Oh? Civ? Yeah, that's Sid Meiers, best check down the hall on that one...
Speaking of Mom and Pops, I for one welcome this change (no memes intended).
I'm getting tired of having my mom and dad (not to mention the other umpteen dozens of people in my life who are in the same boat) call and ask what program xyz does, when I don't have their computer, have never heard of xyz, and can only make broad guesses as to the purpose of the program based on the name. I mean, sure, most are genuinely helpful, but it's not like computers come with big thick welcome guides anymore like they used to.
Anything that helps make life easier for my mom or dad when they get a new computer helps make my life easier as a side effect, and I'm okay with that. Plus, it helps us to figure out what's supposed to be there when we come over and work on their computers. Hopefully it will also be the end of my sister-in-laws complaining that their free game that came with their computer just closed on them and won't re-open... This always leads me to have this fun and exciting conversation
"Did you read the screen or did you just call me instead? ... ... ... ... ... ...
Uh huh, now read me what it says
Uh huh, so when it says you've played for an hour and you should now purchase the game, what does that mean to you?
Well I would guess that it was a free trial, to get you hooked, so that you will give them money. I would suggest that you get up and walk away from the computer though, as you'll need to come up for air instead of playing [the same bakery game with lots of different skins so it looks like a dog salon or whatever]
No, I don't know where to get the full version for free
No, I won't just 'make it work', you'll have to pay the $$$
Okay, well I'm at work, bye!"
It seems to be a two-parter. One is a payload and one is a "diverter". Let the AV deal with the obvious threat, the diverter, and let the payload get on the system. Perhaps someone has done something else to the box? All I know is I got mad SMTP outbound connections from this box for no good reason.
Yeah, those two. You'll have to admit though that the judges were rather overly judgemental of those same two young women, and that they really did do a much better job than they were given credit for.
I mean, here's the thing. When the chinese girl almost fell off the beam, and she scored higher than most of the other girls, how did they come up with that score?
lemme guess, most common infection name is Antivirus XP 2008?
I've started having those pop up left and right, and you are correct, once you think you have the virus gone, you think you're clean. EEEEEEE wrong. There's actually a botnet hiding behind that virus load, and if you don't pull it off, it does it's own direct port 25 push. I've three computers in my near vicinity that all have that loaded on their systems, and at first I was ready to wipe the frigging machine.
Don't forget to clear system restore too!!!
Aw man, why'ld you have to go and tell him what the deal was. I thought we were going to wait till he had lowered his defenses and then offer to show him nude celebrities and celebrity sex videos for free. Sheesh, you spoilsport.
Speaking of 13-year olds winning gold medals, wasn't that judging a little unfair in the women's gymnastics competition last night? Several of the chinese girls routines had obvious faults with practically no deduction, and when the romanian (i think she was romanian, white and blue suit) and the american girls (like NL) put on nearly perfect routines and got almost full point deductions, I was floored.
Now, I know this is pitifully OT, but still. WTF is up with the judges blindness last night? Three girls gave the best performances of the night, and yet the judges couldn't wait but to call the technical division and demand to know what the girls had done wrong so that they could deduct points; it was amazing. I'm pretty sure 4 or 5 somebodies got paid off two days ago...
For much the same reason why I moved up to a single more expensive server. I can run my original SBS install now on any server that supports VMWare vm's instead of the failing POS that it had been installed on (before I adopted it, natch), and I can continually upgrade the underlying hardware without windows kvetching at me when I do. Plus, since the cost of hardware is much cheaper for one system than ten ($3500 for a low-end virtualization server, versus $600 apiece for six desktop boxes), I can run up to at least ten virtualized workstations and reuse my old boxes to simply connect to the vm using RDP or what have you, and seem to have a much faster network, without a massive outlay of funds for new hardware. Sure, we all want a new desktop, but really we just want to work. And nobody here has adopted dual screen computing besides myself, so...
The more important variant of that question is does the parent want to share enough of the details of operation (clean room style) to get someone to want to write an OS equiv.
Don't misunderstand me, I like to write code, but if I don't know what the hole looks like, I can't carve a peg to fit it...
Okay, I'll grant you virt is hot shit right now, and that EMC is doing some really keen things, but I also think that in the global scheme of things you have to remember the graphics workstations on which virt is not an option, as well as the entire home market. But if you're going to talk about MS losing share, so long as CEOs and CFOs are using MS at home (where virt is not so hot right now) then virt won't be the #1 in IT. Trust me, I am looking forward to virt'd desktops, in a big way. But for desktop virting, look to what Citrix is doing, lest you leave out a big name. That's a MS acq I'm waiting to see happen.
All that aside, we have a MS Partnership also, and we use the MAP to great benefit, and I got stern looks over using "that linux stuff" and "those tech toys" rather than hosting it on Win2K3 myself, but the performance is well worth the PHB-iness, so I just went ahead. My only benefit is that I'm IT for this shop, so I have a tad more leeway. More's the pity for the guy at the large shop.