Um. The BSD license *used* to require credit. Depending on what BSD license the original project used, a copyright notice may or may not have been required. I'm sure you wouldn't just say that because you couldn't find the copyright notice, so it's still entirely possible that MS did something wrong. I'll just need more to convince me. They've got a lot of well paid people that try to limit their liability, so...
Apple released Darwin under the APSL out of the goodness of their hearts (and their PR department, I'm sure). They don't have any restriction against using Darwin source inside their closed source components, like Aqua. I think this means that there are certain kinds of linking that you're allowed to do with BSD code that you aren't allowed to do with GPL code, if you're going to keep your IP proprietary. So Apple may not have been able to do what they did had they used the Linux kernel. For example, wasn't there a recent flap over Linus changing the name of some kind of trap to GPL_ONLY?
I guess Microsoft could make this ok by GPLing anything that linked in that manner to the kernel, but it's definitely something that would have to be a consideration were this ever to occur.
Ooooh. This would be an excellent way for them to embrace and extend, wouldn't it? Couldn't they release a Linux variant that was practically useless without their proprietary components? They wouldn't have to do that at first, but they might be able to work up to it...
I was only thinking about expensive movies because I thought grandparent poster was talking about DVDs for movies that cost $100 million to produce. In effect, "Why pay $20 for a $50,000 product when I can pay $15 for a $100 million product?"
In that context, I think my comment holds a little more water. He's ignoring the fact that they intended to have grossed $300 million in the box office for that movie.
And that is quite interesting about DVDs. I guess my understanding was flawed.
Of course, I don't think DVDs are eating into any of the profits that they used to have before DVDs existed... so maybe they're just making more money now. That would still help explain the relatively low cost of a DVD.
Because you already paid $9 to watch the movie, and so did 40 million other people. The DVD is just icing on the cake. If they had to make up all their profits with DVD sales, I guarantee you that movie would not have been made.
Don't get me wrong: CDs are overpriced. I'll never buy another one. DVDs are not a fair comparison.
Our thriving and innovative music industry is about to be dealt a death blow! Please, donate to the RIAA so that we can support the lobby to extend copyright to life + 350 years, and make extend the punishment for DMCA violations to life + 350 years! Help feed starving artists!
We don't need no water. Let the motherfuckers burn.
You shouldn't need to call a lawyer to excercise your right to free speech. Furthermore, he created the site specifically to support the PCI-SIG. They've made it clear that he is not welcome to do so. Why should he go to effort to continue to support a group that treats him like crap?
His lawyer isn't necessary. The requests made in the cease and decist letter are straightforward, would not harm the product, and would not limit its use.
I'd say the group is treating him perfectly well. The only thing they've done that will impact him in any meaningful way (imho) is that he has a (likely flexible) time limit to initiate contact with their lawyers. They specifically welcome him to continue his project, and offer several suggestions on an easy and cheap way to do it.
then you deserve to get spam. That's what Hotmail is for. Gives you a free address that you don't care about, and soaks up bandwidth that Microsoft has to pay for. It's a win-win.
That's why I always use billg@microsoft.com. Back when he used to have a newpaper column (maybe he still does...) it said that he read all the mail to that address. [cough]bullshit[/cough]
Um. The act Thomas is accused of is absolutely clear. The evidence is presented.
Your question (whether the act Justice Thomas has committed should be considered a conflict of interest) is left to the reader. While the poster makes his beliefs known, he has presented enough information that you can make up your own mind. Apparently that's exactly what you've done.
So no, it's not flamebait. It's even relevant.
As to the question, there are ten different ways that Thomas could avoid any semblance of a conflict of interest in this case. He could have recused himself. That's the common thing for a Judge to do. It might not have made any difference, but whatever. It's still interesting.
Gecko works differently, as I understand it. It isn't a component. You can't just drop it in and expect it to work. You either start with Mozilla and start chopping away, or start with Gecko and start adding bricks. It doesn't give you a widget that you merely reparent and listen for events.
I totally believe that this is the case. It still seems like a valuable project to make such a component. Wouldn't it be possible to add enough bricks to Gecko to get a (20 MB, whatever) webcore? If that were doable, wouldn't we wind up with a second highly-usable (for programmers) Mac OS X layout engine framework? Maybe it's not worthwhile. I'm just talking. But I bet the Chimera folks have probably gone and added a bunch of the bricks already...
And yes, this discussion has brought up a lot of the major issues with doing Moz development. All very interesting. I wonder if KHTML will ever get the features Gecko has without becoming a behemoth.
Just so you know what's in the US too, I recently went to our local Scandia (crappy arcade franchise).
They've got some super-ultra-whatever DanceDanceRevolution. Dunno where it's from. I don't speak furrin.
They've got ParaParaParadise
They've got some boxing game (not Fist of the Northern Star. I wish.)
No drumming.
And like ten different (lame) alternative-input device games. I guess arcades realized that the only way to make someone pay $1 for a game was to make it something that you couldn't do on your PS2 - which has to be more than just a bigger CPU now... so *everything* is six feet wide, features a chair, and makes you look like a dumbass.
There was some river rafting game where the whole point was to paddle as fast as possible to avoid some whirlpool... then steer to the next whirlpool. Fun to watch fat kids sweat.
There was some motion-capture golf game. No stick. You swing your hands as if you were holding a golf club. Seems like that'd be impossible without tactile feedback.
My favorite will always be the shooters. I try to get my exercise... uh... with my girlfriend.
Actually, if you read the comments, people are not upset with Apple.
If you read the weblogs of the Mozilla developers, they aren't upset either.
ZDNet was trolling for pageloads from Slashdot. And they won.
BTW, Chimera, based on Gecko, is fast enough at pageloads. It isn't fast enough on app startup, and it isn't fast enough with its GUI.
So it would be very valuable to have a Gecko based WebCore to swap in for KHTML. Since I suspect it's the non-webcore code that leads to a snappy GUI in Safari, I'd might prefer it.
OK! Gecko supports more standards! Gecko is fast (enough)! Gecko is portable!
So... make a Gecko based webcore replacement. Apple has given us a slick framework to implement in order to drive Safari's backend. We can already patch and update our KHTML based webcore... if Gecko would be better, use it. You still get the slick Apple GUI. Right?
I think (WARNING: dumbass user demanding major architectural changes) Chimera should make their Gecko variety use the WebCore framework design, so that their backend would be pluggable with Apple's. Then we could end this argument. There'd be no argument.
It was cheap, small, with a simple interface (Grafitti notwithstanding). The Newton is still far superior in just about every way, it just wasn't as marketable at the time.
Say what? I owned a Newton 2100, and have never owned another PDA since then. You have got to be out of your mind. The Newton sure was superior in just about every way... except price, portability, and battery life. You could shorten the exceptions by saying the Newton was inferior in every way except processing power. The operating system comparison is... debatable.
A kid coding 780'000 lines of code in 18 months. All alone. In that time he have had to design and implement the whole shit including "every single media player built in".
I'm not going to read the article, but... how long is Gecko? Couldn't he have just co-opted Gecko?
Tabs are a solution to a *speed* problem: If ctl-tabbing through moz windows was instantaneous, there'd be no need for tabbed windows. Everything could just be maximized all the time. Even more screen real estate, complainers.
I can't use more than three or four tabs on Chimera, because once you start using that many tabs... it starts slowing down the UI! That's unbelievable!
Anyway. I feel like Chimera will continue to have one killer feature: Nightlies. If webcore and KHTML use the same codebase, and we can compile our own webcore from CVS with the most current stuff, *and* front-end bug fixes get released within a month of discovery, then Chimera will be left in the dust. Of course, this path could easily lead to user confusion if it became popular, which , I'm sure, is not Apple's goal.
So, if Apple makes it slightly hard (it's certainly not hard right now) to keep Safari frequently updated, or lets the non-webcore portion go unreleased for long periods of time, then Chimera could pull out ahead pretty quickly. They could, of course, co-opt all of the innovation from Apple's browser. Apple might not mind. I imagine the Safari team would just be flattered.
The first step, imho, for Chimera, is to figure out why their UI still feels kindof heavy. Maybe they need more threads. Iduno. Safari proves the UI can be faster. I might be crazy, but I think first step for Safari is to figure out why some pageloads download all the images in sequence rather than in parallel. Perhaps I'm just imagining that Chimera does the downloading faster, while Safari does the rendering faster.
Safari's few and far between html rendering bugs will probably vanish in weeks. It feels like the Safari devs have become internet saints. They'll get all the help in the world...
No, that's not it at all. SearchKing wants it submitted as public record. That's what they'll push for. Google can't have this. But I'm sure it'll be fine, because there have to be court accomodations for trade secrets. Iduno what they are, but I'm not worried. Google walks on water.
If I understand correctly, when Rendezvous was first announced, everyone said that Microsoft's Universal Plug 'n' Play (UPnP) has all the same features, is TCP/IP based, etc., and had been out for a while already. The differences that I know of are: 1) Microsoft didn't hire the ZEROCONF guy, so it's not an IETF standard 2) One additional features was a remote root hack, solved a couple of months ago. 3) I haven't heard of anyone using it. Including Microsoft Windows XP filesharing.
The key similarity is that (IIRC) Open Source. Free as in BSD-type-License.
1) Maybe. Usually the quote is attributed to Pablo Picasso. It is possible that he stole the quote from T. S. Eliot.
2) MY USERNAME IS ELWOOD P DOWD. I KNOW PERFECTLY WELL THAT I DID NOT INVENT THIS QUOTE. IT IS THUS A JOKE. I HAVE STOLEN THE QUOTE FROM PABLO PICASSO. I AM A GOOD ARTIST.
Maybe if it were funnier you'd be more likely to get it. Sorry.
Well, the graphics card gives Quartz Extreme and some gaming.
The current crop of iBooks have Quartz Extreme capable graphics cards too. They're just not great for anything else. Modern games can run with acceptable frame rates, so long as all the eye candy is off.
Slashdot Mirror
Um. The BSD license *used* to require credit. Depending on what BSD license the original project used, a copyright notice may or may not have been required. I'm sure you wouldn't just say that because you couldn't find the copyright notice, so it's still entirely possible that MS did something wrong. I'll just need more to convince me. They've got a lot of well paid people that try to limit their liability, so...
Cringly seems to misunderstand something...
Apple released Darwin under the APSL out of the goodness of their hearts (and their PR department, I'm sure). They don't have any restriction against using Darwin source inside their closed source components, like Aqua. I think this means that there are certain kinds of linking that you're allowed to do with BSD code that you aren't allowed to do with GPL code, if you're going to keep your IP proprietary. So Apple may not have been able to do what they did had they used the Linux kernel. For example, wasn't there a recent flap over Linus changing the name of some kind of trap to GPL_ONLY?
I guess Microsoft could make this ok by GPLing anything that linked in that manner to the kernel, but it's definitely something that would have to be a consideration were this ever to occur.
Ooooh. This would be an excellent way for them to embrace and extend, wouldn't it? Couldn't they release a Linux variant that was practically useless without their proprietary components? They wouldn't have to do that at first, but they might be able to work up to it...
Iduno. Just talking.
Um. You're totally correct.
I was only thinking about expensive movies because I thought grandparent poster was talking about DVDs for movies that cost $100 million to produce. In effect, "Why pay $20 for a $50,000 product when I can pay $15 for a $100 million product?"
In that context, I think my comment holds a little more water. He's ignoring the fact that they intended to have grossed $300 million in the box office for that movie.
So... this is where civil disobedience comes in:
Post the article.
And that is quite interesting about DVDs. I guess my understanding was flawed.
Of course, I don't think DVDs are eating into any of the profits that they used to have before DVDs existed... so maybe they're just making more money now. That would still help explain the relatively low cost of a DVD.
Because you already paid $9 to watch the movie, and so did 40 million other people. The DVD is just icing on the cake. If they had to make up all their profits with DVD sales, I guarantee you that movie would not have been made.
Don't get me wrong: CDs are overpriced. I'll never buy another one. DVDs are not a fair comparison.
Our thriving and innovative music industry is about to be dealt a death blow! Please, donate to the RIAA so that we can support the lobby to extend copyright to life + 350 years, and make extend the punishment for DMCA violations to life + 350 years! Help feed starving artists!
We don't need no water. Let the motherfuckers burn.
You shouldn't need to call a lawyer to excercise your right to free speech. Furthermore, he created the site specifically to support the PCI-SIG. They've made it clear that he is not welcome to do so. Why should he go to effort to continue to support a group that treats him like crap?
His lawyer isn't necessary. The requests made in the cease and decist letter are straightforward, would not harm the product, and would not limit its use.
I'd say the group is treating him perfectly well. The only thing they've done that will impact him in any meaningful way (imho) is that he has a (likely flexible) time limit to initiate contact with their lawyers. They specifically welcome him to continue his project, and offer several suggestions on an easy and cheap way to do it.
then you deserve to get spam. That's what Hotmail is for. Gives you a free address that you don't care about, and soaks up bandwidth that Microsoft has to pay for. It's a win-win.
That's why I always use billg@microsoft.com. Back when he used to have a newpaper column (maybe he still does...) it said that he read all the mail to that address. [cough]bullshit[/cough]
Um. The act Thomas is accused of is absolutely clear. The evidence is presented.
Your question (whether the act Justice Thomas has committed should be considered a conflict of interest) is left to the reader. While the poster makes his beliefs known, he has presented enough information that you can make up your own mind. Apparently that's exactly what you've done.
So no, it's not flamebait. It's even relevant.
As to the question, there are ten different ways that Thomas could avoid any semblance of a conflict of interest in this case. He could have recused himself. That's the common thing for a Judge to do. It might not have made any difference, but whatever. It's still interesting.
Gecko works differently, as I understand it. It isn't a component. You can't just drop it in and expect it to work. You either start with Mozilla and start chopping away, or start with Gecko and start adding bricks. It doesn't give you a widget that you merely reparent and listen for events.
I totally believe that this is the case. It still seems like a valuable project to make such a component. Wouldn't it be possible to add enough bricks to Gecko to get a (20 MB, whatever) webcore? If that were doable, wouldn't we wind up with a second highly-usable (for programmers) Mac OS X layout engine framework? Maybe it's not worthwhile. I'm just talking. But I bet the Chimera folks have probably gone and added a bunch of the bricks already...
And yes, this discussion has brought up a lot of the major issues with doing Moz development. All very interesting. I wonder if KHTML will ever get the features Gecko has without becoming a behemoth.
Just so you know what's in the US too, I recently went to our local Scandia (crappy arcade franchise).
They've got some super-ultra-whatever DanceDanceRevolution. Dunno where it's from. I don't speak furrin.
They've got ParaParaParadise
They've got some boxing game (not Fist of the Northern Star. I wish.)
No drumming.
And like ten different (lame) alternative-input device games. I guess arcades realized that the only way to make someone pay $1 for a game was to make it something that you couldn't do on your PS2 - which has to be more than just a bigger CPU now... so *everything* is six feet wide, features a chair, and makes you look like a dumbass.
There was some river rafting game where the whole point was to paddle as fast as possible to avoid some whirlpool... then steer to the next whirlpool. Fun to watch fat kids sweat.
There was some motion-capture golf game. No stick. You swing your hands as if you were holding a golf club. Seems like that'd be impossible without tactile feedback.
My favorite will always be the shooters. I try to get my exercise... uh... with my girlfriend.
Actually, if you read the comments, people are not upset with Apple.
If you read the weblogs of the Mozilla developers, they aren't upset either.
ZDNet was trolling for pageloads from Slashdot. And they won.
BTW, Chimera, based on Gecko, is fast enough at pageloads. It isn't fast enough on app startup, and it isn't fast enough with its GUI.
So it would be very valuable to have a Gecko based WebCore to swap in for KHTML. Since I suspect it's the non-webcore code that leads to a snappy GUI in Safari, I'd might prefer it.
OK! Gecko supports more standards! Gecko is fast (enough)! Gecko is portable!
So... make a Gecko based webcore replacement. Apple has given us a slick framework to implement in order to drive Safari's backend. We can already patch and update our KHTML based webcore... if Gecko would be better, use it. You still get the slick Apple GUI. Right?
I think (WARNING: dumbass user demanding major architectural changes) Chimera should make their Gecko variety use the WebCore framework design, so that their backend would be pluggable with Apple's. Then we could end this argument. There'd be no argument.
That's because we're so much smarter about security now, right?
...
Wow, what a great point. +1 Insightful, totally.
I'm absolutely certain that I could sucessfully use all of those tricks against the company I currently work for.
Hehehe. Good point. That's really funny, dude.
What company?
Oh. Actually, I bet you say in your bio/journal...
It was cheap, small, with a simple interface (Grafitti notwithstanding). The Newton is still far superior in just about every way, it just wasn't as marketable at the time.
Say what? I owned a Newton 2100, and have never owned another PDA since then. You have got to be out of your mind. The Newton sure was superior in just about every way... except price, portability, and battery life. You could shorten the exceptions by saying the Newton was inferior in every way except processing power. The operating system comparison is... debatable.
A kid coding 780'000 lines of code in 18 months. All alone. In that time he have had to design and implement the whole shit including "every single media player built in".
I'm not going to read the article, but... how long is Gecko? Couldn't he have just co-opted Gecko?
Praise Jesus. I hope you are who you say you are.
Tabs are a solution to a *speed* problem: If ctl-tabbing through moz windows was instantaneous, there'd be no need for tabbed windows. Everything could just be maximized all the time. Even more screen real estate, complainers.
I can't use more than three or four tabs on Chimera, because once you start using that many tabs... it starts slowing down the UI! That's unbelievable!
Anyway. I feel like Chimera will continue to have one killer feature: Nightlies. If webcore and KHTML use the same codebase, and we can compile our own webcore from CVS with the most current stuff, *and* front-end bug fixes get released within a month of discovery, then Chimera will be left in the dust. Of course, this path could easily lead to user confusion if it became popular, which , I'm sure, is not Apple's goal.
So, if Apple makes it slightly hard (it's certainly not hard right now) to keep Safari frequently updated, or lets the non-webcore portion go unreleased for long periods of time, then Chimera could pull out ahead pretty quickly. They could, of course, co-opt all of the innovation from Apple's browser. Apple might not mind. I imagine the Safari team would just be flattered.
The first step, imho, for Chimera, is to figure out why their UI still feels kindof heavy. Maybe they need more threads. Iduno. Safari proves the UI can be faster. I might be crazy, but I think first step for Safari is to figure out why some pageloads download all the images in sequence rather than in parallel. Perhaps I'm just imagining that Chimera does the downloading faster, while Safari does the rendering faster.
Safari's few and far between html rendering bugs will probably vanish in weeks. It feels like the Safari devs have become internet saints. They'll get all the help in the world...
No, that's not it at all. SearchKing wants it submitted as public record. That's what they'll push for. Google can't have this. But I'm sure it'll be fine, because there have to be court accomodations for trade secrets. Iduno what they are, but I'm not worried. Google walks on water.
"Overruled."
"Good call!"
Right. Apple had AppleTalk forever ago. Microsoft had SMB forever ago. Neither worked via TCP/IP. Then Microsoft had UPnP. Then Apple had Rendezvous.
We weren't discussing AppleTalk. We were discussing Rendezvous, and MS's desire to copy it.
The originator of the thread was joking anyway. I need to shut up.
Find out what this Rendezvous is and copy it!
If I understand correctly, when Rendezvous was first announced, everyone said that Microsoft's Universal Plug 'n' Play (UPnP) has all the same features, is TCP/IP based, etc., and had been out for a while already. The differences that I know of are: 1) Microsoft didn't hire the ZEROCONF guy, so it's not an IETF standard 2) One additional features was a remote root hack, solved a couple of months ago. 3) I haven't heard of anyone using it. Including Microsoft Windows XP filesharing.
The key similarity is that (IIRC) Open Source. Free as in BSD-type-License.
Others have gotten it, but that's a good point.
Two things:
1) Maybe. Usually the quote is attributed to Pablo Picasso. It is possible that he stole the quote from T. S. Eliot.
2) MY USERNAME IS ELWOOD P DOWD. I KNOW PERFECTLY WELL THAT I DID NOT INVENT THIS QUOTE. IT IS THUS A JOKE. I HAVE STOLEN THE QUOTE FROM PABLO PICASSO. I AM A GOOD ARTIST.
Maybe if it were funnier you'd be more likely to get it. Sorry.
Well. Aren't nuke reactors just as cheap per kilowatt hour as natural gas plants?
Nuclear reactors + fuel cells seem like a solution that would allow a similar level of consumption. It just wouldn't work for Berkeley.
Well, the graphics card gives Quartz Extreme and some gaming.
The current crop of iBooks have Quartz Extreme capable graphics cards too. They're just not great for anything else. Modern games can run with acceptable frame rates, so long as all the eye candy is off.