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Hiding Your Choices And Saying You Made Them
An anonymous reader writes "Lawmeme's Paul Szynol describes how during installation RealPlayer hides checkboxes that elect that the user receives spam, making it look like the user chose to make the selections when in fact he probably just didn't see the options. "This is essentially a cheap and dirty marketing tactic which creates an illusion of informed acceptance by the user where no such acceptance really exists." Other people have posted similar examples from other applications. Is this illegal, or just annoying?"
If they don't show the choices at all, then this hopefully is illegal. I did accept it, but I accepted the choices given to me. But then what do I know. I am no lawyer.
Does anyone have a screen shot of this, or know where to find one online?
What people actually use their real email addresses?
I havent entered a legit, non hotmail for spam only email address in a registration form in years.
BTW, isn't it ironic that the acronym for I Am Not A Lawyer is I Anal??
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
Is this illegal, or just annoying?
Okay, I'll offer myself up as the sacrificial lamb and ask the obvious: Why would this be illegal?
I doubt it's illegal so long as the information is present and available if you look for it.
I dont think it has to be obvious.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
RealPlayer, because you really really checked that checkbox. really!!
Life sucks.
Your email address is now 'a@b.com'. Despite what Trust-E has to say, Real has a history of ignoring privacy matters. I've never in the history of my using RealPlayers put in an actual email address, other than something with an @ and a .com in it. They can market to /dev/null all they like.
This is where your email spam account comes into play.
/. AC "Concrete lifejackets could get certified under ISO2002"
Getting spam is almost as bad as... using RealPlayer. At least they are consistant.
activestudios web design
Is it just me, or did Slashdot get a code update sometime today?
.. I noticed one bug - in a story page there's a link to my homepage in the top right, the link is broken, it's prefixed with 'http://slashdot.org/'
Things seem slightly different, even the comment posting box - it now says 'no karma bonus' instead of 'no +1 bonus' for me.
Isn't this newsworthy?
Sorry for the interruption
Let's face it. There's stuff out there that you want to see that comes in real format. If it's not downloadable, then I skip it. But if it is downloadable and not restricted to stream-only playback, then I don't hesitate to fire up Real Player, secure in the knowledge that it will never be able to communicate my personal details.
Learn to use software firewalls if you can. Hardware firewalls are great for keeping people from attacking you, but software firewalls are great for managing misbehaving software installations like Realplayer. I've never had a better security tool.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
While I don't know the laws on minimum text size, I am sure that a company cannot make you sign something in .001pt Times New Roman. This is probably very illegal for them to do, and they will probably get away with it...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
If we have to risk making "choices" that we had no idea about to install priatary software, then why install it?
This has always bugged me about Real Player. Their newest player installs a lame little executable, that isn't easy to get rid of, that starts up their little message center in the system tray. It was bad enough with their old version which loaded RealPlayer every time you booted, but at least you could turn it off.
These days, if it is encoded in Real it isn't worth my time to watch. I make sure everyone I know is aware of this too.
Dont use it!
Real writes the pushiest software there is and they have a history of public lying on these matters, such as Glaser's testimony before a Senate committee.
then you deserve to get spam. That's what Hotmail is for. Gives you a free address that you don't care about, and soaks up bandwidth that Microsoft has to pay for. It's a win-win.
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
...why would you even give them your email address to begin with? Entering -@-.- during installation has always worked fine for me.
Maybe software should come completely unconfigured, with all options set to some kind of null value. It'd be a lot less user-friendly that way, but in another respect it'd at least be user-respectful.
I can't stand Real media, and haven't had their player installed on my systems for a few years now. Unfortunately, it means I have to pass on a lot of content that is only available in that format -- including NPR archive broadcasts, of all things. It's particularly galling that *public* funded radio archives are made available to the public in a format that is not Free.
Why can't websites publish streaming video in some kind of open format that doesn't suck? What's wrong with ogg or mpeg?
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Proving it would be hard. I mean, this message could have a ^B^B^B^B^B^B^B.
Thanks for subscribing! We'll never share your email address with anyone. Heh.
I've always used a hotmail account when registering for products|software|websites. That way no spam comes to the account that I normally use for business and personal use.
Is this any different than many software companies practice of saying "By opening the plastic wrapper, you agree to our EULA".
The best bet is to not use them.
I noticed that quite a while back when I installed RealPlayer. I say it's annoying just because I have to remember to disable those checkboxes. I also say it's gotta hurt them, because it makes me place my feelings about Real (the company) at a very low level. I don't think it's illegal, and I know they're out to make money like everyone else. However, I say don't screw over your customers, and they'll come back. Piss them off, and you will certainly regret it later. And yes, I know the RealPlayer I download is the free version, and I'm not technically a customer, but if they pull that stuff with me on the free products, I can only imaging the "features" they'll put in the big version I pay for. Again, my opinion of them is quite low because of their tactics.
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Yep, know exactly what the article is referring to. There's a scrolling box for 'we can market these things to you:' and by default none of the visible checkboxes are marked. However, if you actually scroll the box there are 5 (i think) options at the bottom of the list that are checked.
Tricky Tricky Tricky
And this isn't just on installation, it happens if you fully open RealPlayer to change the stupid take-over-your-computer prefferences.
This is one (of the many) reasons why I don't install RealPlayer on any of my machines, and encourage friends to remove it from theirs. If sites don't have their downloadable content in an alternative format (QT, WM, MP3, Ogg, i don't care which) I just won't watch/listen to it.
I'm doing my part to force 'em out of business. Sure, they are providing competition for MS/Apple, but I find their business practices despicable.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
But that has not stopped people before. P.S. the End User Agreement itself has NEVER been found to be legal. If they do not get a real honest to god SIGNATURE, than it does not stand up in court.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
How about using a fake or secondary address for Real et al? It's a good idea to have separate (e.g. webmail) address for things that require it (for instance to send you your password) but look like spambaits otherwise.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I can use 'em. Can you?
Real Player is also spyware according to this:
Down at the bottom of the page, the fortune cookie: No one becomes depraved in a moment. -- Decimus Junius Juvenalis
IANAL. Of course, if you wanted a real legal opinion, you'd ask a real lawyer. So here's my best guess:
There is no legal issue at stake here. Real doesn't need to ask your permission to send you spam any more than Laurent Kabila's widow and toner salesmen do. If a law were passed banning opt-out spam, then there would be an issue as to whether this constitutes opt-in.
The linked site, which does seem to be by an actual lawyer raises the question of legality, but in a hypothetical question about whether a similar technique could be used in an EULA. There seems to be precedent that it would be invalid.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I refuse to use real any longer and the truth of the matter is they are hurting them selves with these types of cheap tricks.
I only wish I could convince people putting up media on the web to not encode using real.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
I never provide my real e-mail address to any of these people -- RealPlayer, New York Times, etc. etc.
Just have your SPAM sent to theres.nobody@this.net and be done with it!
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
"To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English; it is un-American; it is French."*
Not sure if it is illegal, probably not, but it sure as hell is annoying!
*From Mark Twain's Essay "Concerning the Jews"
caution, many popups and unders at that stupid link
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
The boxes aren't hidden. They're at the bottom of a scroll window. So they chose to auto-check the last four. Big F'ing Deal. That should teach people to make sure they pay attention to ALL of the settings when installing software.
Move along. Nothing to see here.
Of course, both are dishonest and wrong, but alas, that's not the same as illegal.
No, no, no..it doesn't. Because a EULA goes multiple pages does not that mean you are not obligated to obey it because you couldn't read the whole thing. You are responsible, as an end user, for reading all the documentation that is provided. If there are documents referred to by links, it's your responsibility to read those as well.
These are similar to the reasons why people hire lawyers...you don't want to get screwed by some hidden text somewhere that you were too lazy to read, so you have someone else read it for you. Taxes? Same thing, lots of small, hidden text. These are all *legal* documents, they're just obfuscated.
I hate EULA's and the like as much as the next guy, but it's your responsibility as a user to read through stuff that the product provider wants you too. Otherwise, you are subject to their default intentions (which are probably ill, in this case).
--trb
They are using the point you agreed to accept this stuff. I think this would be a contract of sorts.
If someone makes a deceptive contract to fool you into accepting it, it may not be valid.
This was a large issue with informed consent, and I think this issue was brought when people were electing to risky medical procedures because they didn't fully understand the risks.
If you RTFA, it clearly states that the options are there, you just have to use a scroll bar to see them.
Then I don't see what the problem is. You don't sign a contract without full reading it do you. Even if there are checkboxes behind a scroll bar, you must read all and make your infromed consent.
Kilroy was here!
This is why things like www.mplayerhq.hu are so darned good. It can play the RealPlayer format with having to use the evil, user-unfreindly RealPlayer.
.rm with it)
And MPlayer is open source so they can't hide this kind of crap on you
Sorry Windows people...this is a Linux thing (and yes, you can stream
or do what I do - use postmaster@real.com
I like old phrases from regular advertising & sales:
You get what you pay for.
Consumer beware!
Everything comes with a price.
Read the contract.
Read the fine print.
No one can force you into a contract.
Eyes wide and mind open.
K.I.S.S.
If it looks too good to be true... it is.
Simple rules I follow when dealing with anything commercial.
(1st sig) If this were a snappy sig, you'd be reading it right now. (2nd sig) I'm a karma whore. >Insert FUD here
IANAL, but this is something that anyone over the age of 12 should understand. Just because something is not "illegal" (or unlawful) doesn't mean that it's fully accepted. There is a gray area.
If you force me to sign a contract, it may not be illegal. But it will be unenforceable - contracts must be entered into freely.
If I sign a contract, then you change the pages in the middle, it may not be illegal. But it will definitely be unenforceable - you can't change contracts after the fact without the consent of all parties.
And in this particular case, you can't hold somebody to a contract if parts of it are never disclosed. It's one thing for the EULA to explicitly give them the right to do something on a "take it or leave it" basis, it's a very different thing for them to have hidden (or unduely hard to find) checkboxes to "prove" you agreed to optional terms.
This is the reason why every(?) court that has looked at EULAs has held them to be unenforceable - why the companies felt it necessary to force the issue via the UCITA.
Well, my state hasn't passed UCITA and I consider EULAs basically null and void precisely because of their widespread abusive use.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
If I read the article correctly, they're not really "hiding" the options. They're all displayed where the user can get to them, you just need to scroll a window in order to see them all. The article is complaining that a user could hit the "Next" button without scrolling the window. If someone accepts default options without scrolling down the window and reading them, they sort of deserve what they get.
Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
As I recall, I noted that it was a scroll box, scrolled down, and unchecked everything. - thought it was sleazy, but I caught it.
I avoid using RealPlayer at all these days - I can rest assured that if I have not used it in two weeks , when I fire it up it will ask "There is a new version of Real One player available, would you like to update?".
Anything that needs updating this frequently is a massive POS in my mind.
-josh
I've found that since I installed spamassassin, I no longer really care if things are sending me spam or not.
I sure as hell never see them - aside from my "caughtspam" file growing in size everyday, and the pm.log that tells me what has been filtered...
I figure as more people get smart about filtering out the spam (yahoo and msn have this too right?), less spam will get through, and more companies will have to up their sleaze levels - so this is likely something we will see much more of.
that said, I can't say enough good things about spamassassin - I went from 500 spam emails a day down to maybe 5 that get throuh (and those are saved out to a "spam" folder that it reads every month and learns from so it gets even better).
my daily spam file looks to vary between half a meg and a meg in size - all mail that I never see in my inbox.
(spamassassin.org - all free - I don't work for them, just love the product - even if I did, since it is free, I'm not sure what I would have to gain from it)
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
Other people have posted similar examples from other applications. Is this illegal, or just annoying?
If you don't read the fine print, and agree to something, and it burns you, and you complain, you are stupid.
It's not illegal. I'm sure somewhere they fully detail out everything, so that the next person who thinks it's "illegal" and tries to launch a suit can be fed the EULA that they agreed to. It's like people bashing Gator for being shady spyware when they fully disclose on their website what they do in big bold letters.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
For NYTimes.com, you can email comments@nytimes.com
m e= News&file=article&sid=830&mode=&order=0&thold= 0
.ram format
Here's what I've sent them.
Dear NYTimes webmaster/editors:
Please refer to this article that underscores the need for the NYTimes.com to provide content in formats other than "Real."
http://research.yale.edu/lawmeme/modules.php?na
Real uses sneaky tactics to "take over" users' PCs and plays fast and loose with privacy and personal preferences.
By only issuing some content in only Real format, the New York Times has adopted the same regrettable personal privacy policies.
I urge you to forward this message to someone who makes policy decisions for the NYTimes.com.
Thank you,
an earlier email I sent to NYTimes.com
I would like to see media clips on nytimes.com, but they are in
>
> which requires a product from Real.com to play them.
>
> I am opposed to using Real's products because real takes over the user's
> machine and infects it with spyware which violates privacy.
>
> The NYTimes should not have the news exclusively in this format. Real's
> invasive privacy policies have now become the NYTimes's policies.
>
> Please consider providing clips in a different format.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
If this were an actual contract there would be certain legal requirements designed that both sides of the contract at least have the potential of being on equal footing.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
The thing I hate the most about Realplayer is the message service that it installs by default, without the user's knowledge. A few days after installation a little text box appears over the taskbar telling you that you have a message. In W2K the only way short of uninstalling that I could find to remove the message service is to edit the registry keys for startup programs.
Older versions used to add the taskbar launcher app. and change file associations without giving an obvious choice which was also annoying. Real has always been my least favorite media application for these reasons. I'm glad other people find their software annoying also.
Dewey, you fool! Your decimal system has played right into my hands!
"There should be a law!!!" I hear it every day. I figure I'm in some socialist Green country, but then I realize I'm not. People are just unbelievable.
.001 font size, no it is not illegal. It is up to you to say "I won't sign this, and I won't use your product."
If someone gives you a contract in
If someone decides to "hide" some options down a scroll list, or maybe on a back page, it is still your responsibility to see if there is more, before signing it.
If they ask you to "Accept" a 40 page long list of rules and rights you are relinquishing, it is not illegal -- its just lazy of you to scroll through it all haphazardly and click "Agree!" You don't need their product, so close the window and say screw it. Follow up with a letter to their management, and if enough people complain, maybe things will change.
If you enter a fake e-mail address in, THAT might be illegal. Check the text to see. If anything, entering "OK" and moving on just gives the companies the knowledge that you agree (which you do by accepting their terms). Don't regulate these guys with LAWS, regulate these guys with MARKET tactics.
There should never be "consumer rights." I hate that term. YOU are not a consumer, and THEY are not a producer. You are BOTH market exchangers. They are exchanging their product for either your money, your e-mail address, or your personal information. You feel that any of those items you are exchanging is worth less than their product. This is true of ANY market exchange. You produce your cash, or your address, or your information, they product an item or a service.
There are no magic "economic" theories behind any of this. This is common Austrian School of Economics theory. It works. Go check out http://www.mises.org/ to learn more.
Consumers don't exist. Producers don't exist. We're both just equal partners accepting one person's services or products for the bartered exchange for another.
Keep the government out of it.
Is this illegal, or just annoying?
How can you even suggest this is illegal? These are default options. I guarantee you would be pissed as a first time user if Apache didn't come with default options. Whether or not this is in the best interest for the consumer is debatable, but easily justifiable by Real. A simple argument would be that the checked boxes provide helpful information to a new user (funny, i know, but bear with me).
This isn't a product where you must provide a legitimate email address to register. You're getting something for nothing, literally, and it was your choice to download. Skeazy, perhaps, but most certainly legal, and not a terribly large pain in the ass. Compare it to other applications out there (Gator comes to mind, that vile, repulsive worm of a legal piece of spyware) and I think you'll find this process is quite pleasant in comparison.
--trb
... he saw that some of the checkboxes to receive spam were not selected, so he *assumed* that all of the checkboxes were not selected? Hmmm. My grandma had one piece of advice when it came to assuming:
DON'T!
And BTW, someone who reads/posts to lawmeme ought to know better.
This is just another reason why I don't use RealPlayer -- I decode my streams by hand. I have the help of fourteen trained cats, and as the stream is "played' accross a readerboard in front of us we all translate it into .au format.
A central server compares all the files in realtime and averages them to compensate for any typing errors/drunkennes.
It's a surprisingly efficient system. Right now I'm listening to the White House's response to the leopard inspectors in Iraq who just found a forbidden stash of Gucci pants in an Iraqi bunker.
I'm eager to upgrade to a 28-cat system, thus effectively doubling my sample rate and allowing me to listen to stereo feeds and possibly even allow video by... er.... damn, I gotta get a life...
RealPlayer accepts a fake address, and you're not missing anything by diverting those helpful marketing messages.
A lot of people will put foo@test.com in. Don't do that. The test.com mail admin will hate you. Use something @example.com instead. example.com is never going to be a live domain.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
"Is this illegal, or just annoying?"
Companies screwing people == legal.
People screwing companies == illegal.
People get pissed at companies screwing them == lay off 20,000 peons, do nothing to the higher ups that caused the problem.
Wealth, power, and might = right.
Poor, intelligence, and reason = wrong.
Want proof? Find it yourself. These are my opinions.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Companies that violate the public trust do not deserve a second chance, period.
I just to update my user preferences to fix my email format and there were two boxes that weren't there before, both checked as if I had checked them. One of them said I wanted junk snail mail from ebay and the other said I wanted junk telemarketing phone calls. I unchecked both but haven't flamed ebay yet. I should add though, I don't think I've actually gotten any junk phone calls from ebay.
Every new REALplayer release always brings up a privacy/spam/security issue on slashdot.
There was a time when Real was one of de facto thing for efficient streaming or simple encoding. Today it's not true. The player is bloated, the codec's CPU/quality factor isn't anything close spectacular (nor good I'd say), everything feels like molasse with their stuff, and on top of that, they are still pulling their dirty tricks. Why do people bother downloading it when there are TONS of alternatives?
Webmaster? heck you can encode DIVX, Quicktime, even Mpeg-1 codecs got good enough to make low bandwidth application (ok not at the same quality, but if you UNDERSTAND the basics of Mpeg you can manage to make a video that is efficient and still retains decent quality, and mpeg is cross-platform with no issues, I still use it, I do proper optimization with the vector settings vs skipping frames and chose the right encoder for the right application, each has it's strong and weak points), You can tweak the right encoding setting for the target bandwidth and voila, you're set. My last contract required me to encore a 4 minute clip, and I manage to make it small enough so dialup users could download it, it wasn't 320x240@30fps, then again same would apply with REAL, unless you like blurry/blocky transition and loads of frame skipping. That's another thing with most low bandwidth REAL content, clueless encoder put "maximum quality/crisp" with low bandwidth, that gives you 1fps or 2 but not on a second calculation but on let's say 10 seconds, you see 1 second with 2-3 frames, wait 2-3 seconds, then se another 2-3 frames, ARGH! it's totally annoying.
I'd rather have lower resolution and see something smooth than seeing skipping or blurryness. With mpeg I was doing 6-10FPS at the same low resolution, it was doing a very good job, wasn't annoying, and the video was actually useful where as the guy who made the "REAL" thing simply should have encoded audio without video for the viewer's sake. Anyways, I've managed to make good stuff with Realvideo but I stopped being impressed after their G2 system, they just bloated the damn thing where some others managed to make better codec, players, and so on.
Anyways, I've fixed the "REAL" problem here at work, all of the REAL networks ip addresses are banned, this takes care of all of the problems at the same time. If someone on a laptop goes download it at home, you can configure your firewall to send you an alert once it tries to do it's thing and go remove it from the offending laptop. This is how you deal with spyware/lameware/FS-EULAware. If everybody would do this, the net would be just a tad more enjoyable, too bad people don't care about this.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
...if nobody (companies offering software, etc.) pre-checked the "send me spam" choices for their users. Let the users truly check these options *for themselves* if they want.
"People" using "unnecessary" quotes should be "shot".
I noticed no such thing when installing RP8 for linux. I may have missed it. But is this a windows only thing? Perhaps because windows users will put up with anything?
Best wishes,
Bob
But then again, MS isn't better. If you want to create an hotmail account for free, you have to find this link at the end...otherwise you only see options that you need to pay for.
Obviously, most people know hotmail are free mail accounts but for newbies, they know everybody got an hotmail account but never find the link for the free account....
That is for hotmail.
Next...hotmail offer you zillions of checkbox to receive great offers and news (translated to spam). Obviously, I never checked one of those and I have quite a few accounts on hotmail. Some I never used for form submission....I'm the only one who know the existance of this account. After few months I start getting spam in my mailboxes.
If so, hiding the terms contained within should technically be considered "misrepresentation" and thus be subject to relief. (If taken to court)
The problem with this is that, by that time, it probably doesn't matter. The company may agree to remove your name from their databases, but may have already sold your name to third parties. Whether this would then warrant damages I don't know....
(I'm not a lawyer --- any real ones out there know more?)
You use their software for free so why can't they "trick" you a little bit to get your e-mail and send you stuff. It's your own fault for not paying attention to what your clicking. Just because you CAN click next doesn't mean you should. I don't see anythign wrong with it at all. I either
A) Avoid the software (Personally I hate RealPlayer)
B) I never give out my real e-mail but either a hotmail account or something that is already spammed to hell.
If you do either one of these then problems are solved.
"I believe in everything in moderation. Including moderation." -Dean DeLeo, Stone Temple Pilots
I think the problems here are that:
1) It's a PITA to read through all the legalese in a typical EULA, and this discourages people from doing so;
2) Most users aren't lawyers, and many probably don't trust their own judgment when it comes to evaluating what the real-world effects of an EULA are.
There seems to be an opportunity here. I'd like to see an organization that reviews the EULA's for widespread software titles, and gives them a simple rating according to useful criteria. The rating process could be done by a panel of lawyers or other informed independent individuals. I might even subscribe to such a service, if it were painless to quickly check the rating and block the installation of poorly-rated software.
Read my keyboard review.
Another problem is sites that don't (or make it hard to)let you download the install package and install it later, for example, you need to install QT on three machines, or you don't trust Apple to leave old versions of QT on their web site. Not to mention the waste of bandwidth.
THEY want to control the install process (for various reasons), which conflicts with ME wanting to control the install process, and not having to rely on them to make what I want available.
W9x:Thanks for the make-work project Bill.
This reminds me of their "Message Center," which I've yet to figure out how to disable. Every time the app loads (and often when just lurking in the background), a window pops up in the bottom right over the systray informing the user of updates, news, or what-have-you.
Imagine if every piece of freeware (and I use the term lightly these days) did this. Well, a lot do already. But seriously -- if AIM, RealPlayer, Quicktime, Winamp, Winzip, and other necessities all started doing this, the desktop would be a mess of crap far more than it is now.
The hard part is that sometimes, you just can't get around these proprietary apps like RealPlayer and Quicktime without going with a buggy 3rd-party player.
denonymous www.teamtotallyawesome.com
I was just looking through the Preferences menu of my RealOne Player Plus, and in the Auomatic settings I clicked on the Tell Me More button and read this lovely tidbit:
"Note: The settings on the Automatic Services Preferences page only apply when RealOne Player is turned off. When RealOne Player is in use, all automatic services will be active."
So you can uncheck the boxes all you want, but when you use the software they can still suck your bandwidth dry.
Truth be told, RealOne or RealPlayer or RealAudio or whatever the hell they call it these days is annoying in much more in-your-face ways than this. I get lots of spam; getting a bit more through Real isn't much of a headache. But the damned blinking tray icons, little reminder messages, hidden processes and everything else make it the single most annoying piece of software I've ever used.
In principle, the invasion of privacy is worse. But in practice and in real life, the constant attention demanded by a program of dubious usefulness far more obnoxious.
RealPlayer sucks and you should uninstall it now!
Did I have to tell you that?
incripshin
People have been doing this since the early days of contract law. All the nasty terms in a contract are printed really small. There's nothing new here.
I installed RealOne recently, and much to my dismay, they have removed the preference setting to kill "StartCenter". StartCenter is the annoying thing that sits in your system tray and starts up with your computer. In RealOne Player, not only does it have a systray icon, but it also places little pop-up "message" windows on your computer! It's completely disgusting.
;)
There are no preference settings in RealOne Player to disable this, so I thought I'd post this here, since I'm sure this thread will be filled with people who hate RealOne as much as I do.
The startup code for the popup window is hidden in your registry. The easiest way to get rid of it is to use 'msconfig', which comes with every version of Windows except for 2000. (In a minute, I'll explain how to get rid of it on Windows 2000 as well.)
To use msconfig, go to Start->Run and type in 'msconfig' (no quotes.) Go to the Startup tab. You should see an entry beginning with "real". Uncheck the box next to this entry so that it won't load on startup. In addition, look for an entry called "eventsvc" whose command is "c:\Program Files\Common Files\Real..." This is part of RealPlayer as well, and you can uncheck it safely. (While you're at it, this is the place you can disable those useless ATI control panels and other muckety-muck that likes to sit down in the system tray. Don't worry; you can always go back and re-enable the services later if you disable something you need.)
Once you've unchecked whatever you don't want to load, hit "OK". You will be prompted to restart your computer to make the changes take effect. Go ahead and restart. When you log in next time, you'll see a box explaining that your system is now in "diagnostic" mode. Check the box that says "Don't show me this again" and click OK to be on your merry way (hopefully with a faster bootup time.)
In Windows 2000, you can manually edit the Registry to get rid of these keys. Unlike msconfig, there is no going back, so make sure you know what you're doing! Look in HKLM or HKCU under Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run. You should find the little bugger there. Delete it.
(Standard disclaimer: If you screw up your computer doing this, I am not responsible. If you don't know what a key is, it may be best to leave it alone. Doing a Google search may help you figure out what is necessary and what isn't. In general, leave anything that has to do with your hardware alone, especially modem software, as your modem may require it to work properly.)
Also, when installing RealPlayer, always take the time to read the installer to know what it's doing! You can, and should, disable most of the crap it tries to do, such as opening MP3s and auto-updating your RealPlayer with the latest advertisements. Try "compact" mode as well--that should kill most of the remaining advertisements.
I hope this helps those of you who are (unfortunately) faced with RealPlayer's wrath. The tips above can help to tame your system and make it a bit nicer to use your computer.
As always, if you have relatives who use RealPlayer, or you maintain it in an office setting, it may be best to perform that procedure on every computer. There's really no need for workers to be distracted by RealPlayer advertising. If you're using msconfig, don't forget to restart the computer and disable that "diagnostic" mode box that pops up, as well, or your less technically-inclined relatives/co-workers may be calling you for help!
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
it seems to me that real has been getting shadier and shadier with each passing year. Then when you realize that they've aligned themselves with AOL-TimeWarner (like all of CNN.com's newsfeeds you have to be a paying member of realone to view) These are all the same companies that were crying wolf about Microsoft's monopolistic tactics, yet you can't go many places on the web without running across some arm of the AOL-TimeWarner-RealOne triangle of evil
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
/. is just noticing this? These install options have been obfuscated for long time in Real Player; it's one of the most insidious pieces of software I've ever come across.
Ensure that after the install you immediately go back through the prefernces and check out *every* possible preference.
&J
I am likely to get clobber for flame bait (and off topic but the original one was already in that area), but here it goes anyway...
I have been watching this, i'll use the term "movement" for tha lack of anything better at moment, regarding the vitirol spewed at anything non-gpl. Quite frankly its starting to go beyond just the code being 'open' per se, its becoming an (arrogant?) mindset. Quite frankly its giving me vibes of what i'll call the 'PETA principle'. The idea that if something doesnt conform for "insert dogma here" it must be crap/evil/whatever. To be brutally frank, a piece of 'GPL" software could have also done the same backhanded hidden signup for spam thing too. But hey you get to look at the source code and see that before you install it right!? You did go an read all the code first right? See this is the point, he glp donest prevent anyoem from doing scummy thing.. just taht they have a better chance of getting caught for it. But as *nix apps and tools move forward into the use by the general public (even if they are the 'holy' GPL) not only will most ppl not bother with looking at the code. most ppl wont have the ability to know taht the code exists to be read.. its not part of their vocabulary.
Perhaps we should stick to making comments relavent to actual *actions* of the software devlopers and the quality of the work instead of holding up your golden calf and demand it be worshipped. </rant>
(sacred cows makes the best burgers)
(My favorite part of most EULAs is how they say, "User agrees to abide by any future changes Company may make to this agreement." How legal can that be?!?)
Technically, they're being "nice" by making it possible for you to un-check the box at all.
It's easier just to give a fake address like other posters have suggested. We've been using that trick ever since Radio Shack started asking for your home phone number.
-Rick
This may be OT for this discussion, and it may be completely anti-EULA altogether, but is anyone else here aware that mplayer has had Real support for some time now in the 0.90 series? It works pretty good for me and you can even use the included mencoder program to convert realvideo into any number of less annoying formats.
University - a box of academia nuts.
I must have missed that day in civics class where they expalained the third and a half admendment. The right to not have to think or pay attention while installing Real Player?
There are junk emailers that will spam every sensible letter combination of popular EMail services like Hotmail or AOL. If you've ever tried to sign up for an account on one of those services, you know how hard it is to find a name that hasn't been taken already. Spamming the whole domain is about as productive as buying a list of addresses from some outfit. So you can get spam even if you've never used the mailbox.
I am NOT a man!
I am a free number!
I noticed this a long time ago and thought it was a dirty trick. In fact i was so pissed they would attempt to sneak this by me I uninstalled all of Real's products and now use M$ Media player for everything. At least M$ likes to admit they are going to screw me in the EULA
A few months back I downloaded the latest Realplayer. After I launched the application it kept asking me if I wanted to be the default video player. Choices where "OK" or "Cancel". I clicked "Cancel" and it brought the same dialog box back. If fact it
won't go away till you click "OK". To that kind of instrusive behaviour I say screw Real. I'll stick to my Quicktime and Windows Media Player.
Just as well we don't need to use realplayer any more for "realmedia" content.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Damaging the brand may not be worth the short-term payoff, and may have devasting long-term effects. Doesn't seem worth it to me... especially not for a company like Real.
first of all, if you don't scroll through all the choices, that's your fault, and if you don't use a fake email, that too is your fault. Granted, RealPlayer's policy is immoral, but what else can you expect from companies nowadays?
what kind of an idiot actually gives his/her email to a binary-only program? you should know better and be mr. HelloThere FuckYouRead (my_second_email_is@even_less_existant.com)
That's what I do. Nuff said.
The way I see it, there are only 2 real kinds of business. Honest businesses with something to sell you for what it needs to turn a profit (ie gas stations, grocery stores, most retailers, good insurance companies, good car dealers) and those that make their money off of deceit or people who just don't know any better (cell phone companies, creditors and car dealers for people with bad credit, and 90% of the auctions on ebay). While I like to just find my best product, I object to many of these companies on moral grounds. I prefer to deal with those who try to make their customers happy, regardless if its only because they want you back.
Whale
It probably is not illegal, but it is definately unethical.
And, it shows a remarkable lack of respect for their customers.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Not illeagal, but it sure is the mark of low-down, dirty, ass-munching, poop-eating, dust mite raising, greasy, RIAA-like, dishonest, cheating, adultering, fuck-faced, two-faced asshole-slathered marketing guy out to make the quick buck rather than actaully build a customer relationship that is trusting and positive.
don't install the fscking software!
After reading about the license agreement in the last batch of betas, I vowed that there will NEVER EVER AGAIN be a new(!) version of RealPlayer that I install by hand on ANY of my computers, or ANY computer that I have a hand in for installing software.
The only content online that this really costs me is the NPR archives and the Dr. Who stuff at the BBC. Should I truly desire to view / hear this content, I fire up an old version of the player that I know doesn't give me hissy fits about spam, because I long ago registered it to an email account that no longer exists.
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
Real Player is, and long has been, the single most obnoxious example of tricky marketing of "free" products. And their paying customers aren't treated much better.
I purchased RealJukebox 2.0 way back when, and it was an okay product. But RealOne Player kills it. I can no longer patch my original purchased version, because any attempt to update it will install RealOne. Supposedly this is a replacement, but naturally, the free player doesn't include all of the features. So, basically, my purchase has been rendered worthless.
For those who care, it's worth noting that the Glaser family supports several of the most extreme animal rights groups. And I don't mean people who rescue stray kittens, these are people who think that stepping on an ant is the moral equivalent of murdering a human. If you agree, that's then go ahead and check all the spamboxes. If you're unsure, do some research before doing business with Real.
At the bottom of the page, in tiny print, are links for "Legal Notice/Terms of Use" and "Privacy Policy". So I clicked on each.
Up came blank windows in my browser. So then I viewed the source for each of the two pages:
Which explains why the windows were blank. What do you reckon the terms of use and privacy policy are really like?Real attempts by clever and obscure means to trick users into options they wouldn't normally choose.
Who would have dared to think it?
Reading comments on the article, I noticed a related discussion on a sneaky install process that adds one of the AOL's domains to the Trusted Sites list in the IE settings, and reportedly modifies the Trusted zone settings as well, all without user consent. I discovered such modifications done on my system too, and I suspect it was either Netscape 6/7 or ICQ. Any evidence on the origin of that "AOL hole installer", to warn the world against?
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
I believe this falls under "deceptive marketing/advertising." Spam is in essence advertisements and marketing. Hiding the acceptance checkbox from the user is decieving them into subscribing to such advertising. I'm not really up to date on the laws, but last time I checked, deceptive marketing tactics were illegal, not to mention open to a lawsuit...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
I wholly agree with you, man. Right fucking on!
Does anyone know what the legal status of click through agreements would be if I get to the install, then let my kid click on the ok button (she's 6)? Or put the keyboard on the ground and let one of my dogs run over it? I do not think you can be legally bound to a contract unless you are 18 at signing, and certainly my dogs do not have any legal status (plus they can't read). Or if I have my mother (who can't read English) do it?
Anyone?
--ngoy
I am a fairly passive individual, but when it comes to Real, I am completely perturbed. It's been this way since 1995 when I first installed the Real Player. (I also purchased the encoder suite since I was involved in pro audio back then.) Shortly after it came out, they published a new version which meant I had to reinstall their app in order to hear stuff. I then started hearing about their selfish marketing tactics, and self-centered business culture. (Then remember the whole real player 4 fiasco with microsoft?) It didn't take long for me to swear off Real Audio forever. To this day, none of my computers, or any of the computers at any of my locations have Real Audio installed. If Real ran a brick and morter store, they'd be out of business so fast....
Yeah we do it hear it everyday. And it is a terrible thing to hear. At one end, we feel that the government is ultimately the only institution that can protect us from greedy and unscrupulous corportations, and at the other end we get tired of the government interfering in everything.
The law is becoming more and more important in our society. We are becoming an explicitly codified socieity. there are a lot of reasons this is the case. one of them, though, is that politicians need to get re-elected, and if they aren't passing new laws all the time, they are seen as not doing anything. for my part, i think that education, for example, has been reformed enough for a while. any statistician knows that you can't evaluate the results of some reform without ample time to evaluate it.
>Consumers don't exist. Producers don't exist. >We're both just equal partners accepting one >person's services or products for the bartered >exchange for another. agreed! except for one thing. we aren't equal in the larger scheme of things. your statement sounds more like a justification of the inequalities of the capitalist system than anything (actually, it sounds like you are saying they don't exist). But I won't say anything more, because I'm not familiar with the Austrian school of Econ. i will certainly go and learn more about it. ( :
as for Real Player? its not illegal, just shady, annoying, and we should write them and tell them that. and boycott. if they hid it in a way that you would have to hack into the program or install it first to see, then that would be illegal (hopefully)
madcapjack
Logic, macros, and more
RealPlayer has been that way for at least 3 of its last major versions. I first noticed this a few years ago, I think back in 98.
1 The use of automated calling systems without human intervention (automatic calling machines), facsimile machines (fax) or electronic mail for the purposes of direct marketing may only be allowed in respect of subscribers who have given their prior consent.
2 Notwithstanding paragraph 1, where a natural or legal person obtains electronic contact details for electronic mail directly from its customers, in the context of the purchase of a product or a service, in accordance with Directive 95/46/EC, the same natural or legal person may use these electronic contact details for direct marketing of its own similar products or services, provided that customers clearly and distinctly are given the opportunity to object, free of charge and in an easy manner, to such use of electronic contact details when they are collected and on the occasion of each message where the customer has not initially refused such use.
So where I am, it's illegal because they say it is.
Is it just me or is this the most useless app on the planet? The quality is terrible and 90% of the time they let you use Windows Media Player instead.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
This reminds me of an online store in the UK called Jungle.com. In the user preferences there is a tick-box to stop them selling your information to third parties. They did a great job hiding it.
But the worst thing is, everytime you go back to preferences it is always unticked by default. So if you go and change your address and forget about it (naturally, as it's hidden) then suddenly your details are up for sale to anyone.
This wasn't that long ago, I'm not sure if they still do it. Because they wouldn't change it I don't shop there anymore.
American Megatrends, Inc. (AMI) has announced a new BIOS that meets the specifications of the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance (TCPA). The BIOS incorporates features that ensure the system's "integrity and trustworthiness." This is, of course, a double-edged sword. While it's the TCPA code is claimed to prevent tampering with a system, it may also be configured to construe attempts to access content in an "unapproved" manner as tampering.
One of the functions of a TCPA BIOS is to "verify the integrity of the OS loader and OS kernel." It is therefore possible that machines incorporating such a BIOS will refuse to boot operating systems such as BeOS, FreeBSD, or Linux and/or log attempts to boot them, effectively "blowing the whistle" on users who try to run an alternative OS. A white paper from AMI explains the details of the new product.
it's a win-win situation for everyone!
Can anyone actually think of a law made in the past decade that actually helped them? Does anyone have to wait more than a second to name some laws that hurt them?
To quote myself:
It's late.
Your congressman is drunk.
He is asked to sign something.
Shit happens.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
I use a technique that's called PAYBACK.
;-) They ask for my infos ? Well, you deserve this. Some companies protect themselves (adobe), so there I enter a fake email (duh@whatever.cmo, TLD letters inverted, just to be sure that the owner of the whatever.com domain does not receive crap for nothing).
;-)
You download Quicktime, it asks for an email adress. How does root@apple.com and carefully checked box as I want to receive those emails.
Try it, it's fun.
Don't agree w/ these practices but, I always use user@127.0.0.1 as my e-mail address. Most programs or websites asking for such information almost always fail to recognize it as invalid. That'll teach em.
I recently converted my single boot Linux laptop to a dual boot Linux/Windows XP laptop, so that I can use Microsoft Office (writing law school papers is still easier in Word than it is in Open Office).
He has already accepted the EULA for XP and MS Office so he has surrendered all his rights to Microsoft, why is he concerned about a little spam? This sounds pretty damn silly to me. He finds it ok to give MS complete access to all the data on his laptop, to do with whatever they see fit, but it is an outrage that he might be sent some easily filtered spam.
Hidden checkboxes? This doesn't surprise me in the least. I haven't used the RealPlayer virus^Wsoftware is years because of the spam. In fact, when I last installed it, I specifically remember a.) requesting that I not be emailed anything from RealNetworks, and b.) shortly thereafter receiving an email or two per week from Maria Cantwell, former RealNetworks executive and current U.S. Senator.
A quick trip to Google shows some shenanigans typical of a politician. With people running RealNetworks like that, no wonder the software is so (IMHO) abysmal...
-- Disclaimer: DO NOT use this
if (wouldLikeSpam.checked) {
sendSpam (email);
} else {
while (emailServerAlive (email)) {
sendSpam (email);
}
}
This has been present for as long as I can remember in RealPlayer 8.0, and probably 7 and G2 (the three are all really similar).
Luckily, neither version of RealOne uses this. Even though they ask you to give them an email address/password (this is for their grand "RealOne BlankPass" subscription based service and lets them decide what special features your RealOne player gets), they don't have this stupid little thing now. There is a single checkbox during signup that lets them know you don't want your address shared and I think there's one that says you don't want any email from RealNetworks either.
The latest realone has actually been getting better about letting you turn shit off. Under Tools>Preferences>Automatic Services, a bunch of stuff is turned on by default but it lets you turn off various automatic and annoying things (like the Message Center, for instance...). Once you do this, RealOne Player acts just like that, a player, and not a marketing tool.
Realplayer, Apple Quicktime, Flash For the past couple years or so, I've just quit using all that stuff completely. I decided the aggravation of seemingly ALWAYS needing a newer version than what I had, the annoying system tray crap thats near impossible to get rid of, dialogue boxes presenting me with two options - Register? OK and Register Later It just all go so annoying I simply don't use any of it anymore and I can't even say that I've missed any of it.
One can sue and win for misrepresentation when a lie exists. Lawyers must prove several things to win over a jury and exercise the law. A contract does not contain a lie unless:
a. The truth is opposite (or fashionably close) to what has been represented to a party
b. The lack of truth made a party change its course of action.
c. The altered course of action causes damages.
I'll establish damages easily. The way I see it, receiving spam is undesirable to the consumer (damages). Did the lack of truth make us choose an undesirable option? Would we have chosen this undesirable option without being coerced? I, for one, would not choose to receive spam were I given an option. Yes, that's changing my course of action with a lie.
Lying by omission and lying directly are rather different, however. To directly state that you have only one option, I feel, does the opposite of given us the whole two options. We are given the mistruth that there is only one option available. Now, depending on how it is provided in the setup, there MAY be an option, but it must be discovered. This is questionably legal, but will probably win in defense. If there was no option, and none were made clearly available to the consumer. This will probably be seen as illegal, and should be prosecuted.
This comes across as terribly arrogant. Most normal people don't know how spam works. Nothing seems inherently wrong with giving out your email, so how are they suppose to know? The internet is new for many so they are naive, not stupid. Stop pumping up your own ego by calling other people stupid. It's no wonder slashdot nerds don't get any dates. People will learn in time, you asshole.
How is this different from signing your name on the dotted line of any other contract?
In their database these settings will appear as choices made by you. Choices which allow their company to make money by indulging your attention and time.
The question whether such an obvious immoral approach should be legal or not bothers me a lot as it shows that we rely on finite and imperfect laws to replace our natural moral values and protect us from people who have abandoned them.
And I do not speak of values based on culture or religion or education but the ones we carry on a deeper level, as a part of the human nature.
You can't have laws against every possible variation of cruelty, violence, selfishness. Even more, laws ARE cruel and violent.
The self regulatory mechanism of our society is failing. What do we do now?
you can get extensions for mplayer (a linux player that supports mp3, wav, quicktime, real etc) audio and video formats. If you have windows, lol.
Why does anyone use Real for streaming, etc? What's in it for them? I can understand big companies wanting to partner with others that have garnered an audience, and can function as a marketing channel, but I see no evidence that Real actually delivers this. Of course, Real presents themselves like they're where the action is, but is it really? Do companies really believe Real can do anything for them? Do they even ask for some numbers? Are they so stupid they believe Real's free server sofware is their only alternative? Why the hell not just use streaming MP3, or even streaming Ogg, like the BBC does?
obviously no one actually gives their real email address. No wait, that's the point! Give 'em a Real (tm) email address! e.g. sales@real.com, pr@real.com, abuse@real.com, etc.
In fact, why even bother to get the Hotmail address? Just make one up!
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
Not sure if they've changed this on recent versions, but another zinger they've thrown out was that it would start up that system tray thingie when you installed it. And you couldn't get into the Preferences to disable it until you registered. It wasn't so bad back when they would let you register as "webmaster@real.com", but it looks like they've caught on to that one.
I gave serious thought to buying their All-In-One player, but crap like this makes me steer as far away from them as I can get. Microsoft looks positively benign by comparison.
uce@ftc.gov
Really.
I give up. I am officially declaring that no streaming media shall play on my computer until such a time when situations like this get resolved. It's really a shame that one cant just use software the way one wants to on their own PC. It's BS. I can live without it.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
It is no doubt legal, but it is intentionally deceptive. Being diligent I always scroll down and uncheck them, but the average Joe user would just hit next, not being computer literate enough to know they should scroll down to see the rest. And not having dealt with enough slimeware to expect this kind of thing.
I like companies that are straight forward and do not attempt to hide how they make their money. Businesses should act ethically. Unfortunately, there seems to be little incentive for them to do so.
That's utter crap. It's right up there with "if you don't install an alarm, you deserve to be burgled and the burgler will be innocent" and "if you wear such a short skirt, you deserve to be raped"
To hell with you, troll.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
in most locales, but I believe it is unethical. Since "small print" does give them plausible deniability, how do you prove it was not just a bad design choice?
You can download RealPlayer 8 at ftp://www.icarusindie.com in the apps folder. It's the last version before they shit all over themselves.
.com. Real.com can have my real name and address when I pay for their software. Until then I'm under 13 and live in Uganda.
Also, thanks to the US government I tend to be Under 13 quite a bit. It's a lot easier than unclicking all those stupid boxes. I'd also like to thank Real for not verifying my moo@cow.com e-mail address and that my name is not actually FUCK OFF.
Seriously though, why are we complaining? You're not required to put valid information in those fields. Even if you feel moraly obligated not to lie, at least sign up for a junk Hotmail account to use when you fill out various forms.
If some site/program actually has the balls to force valid information out of me I go somewhere else. Unless I'm paying you, fuck off
Ben
Work Safe Porn
give a fake adress that will bounce AND check the five upper boxes, to maximize the amount of spam that wil bounce to them.
Alternatively, you can give support@real.com as an address, so support becomes unmanageable.
People actually use RealPlayer?
Yep, this is just like LONG RANTING EULA's that make people not really want to take the time to read them... every company knows that the end user (to which the EULA directly is supposed to address) is just going to click "I AGREE" to get the damn thing working/running.
Another funny situation I saw... two days ago a bus went by me on the street. I had this HUGE ADD on the side of it in 3 foot letters for AT&T long distance. It said something about how you could sign up for unlimited long distance at some low cost... $25 a month or something. The statement had a * at the end. I tried to read the fine print at the bottom for the details... guess how small they were??? About as small as the print in the NEWSPAPER. Try reading that as a bus passes you buy with an advertisement!
It's dirty. I FRIKIN HATE these people and their cheap tactics. They're no better than the Enron execs and should all be SHOT to be removed from this earth on INSTANT.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Just one more reason not to download any malware from real.
Unrelatedly, does anyone else find themselves reading Slashdot comments in the voice of the Comic Book Guy? It usually fits so well it could be mistaken for performance art.
This isn't offtopic. Flame bait maybe (I actually agree with the post) but certainly not offtopic. He's discussing how Real would probably be no better even if it were GPL. That's on topic.
Silly mods, offtopics are for goatse.cx trolls.
That reminds me, what's the actual purpose of spam ? "'Trying'" (saw the quotes? :) ) to make some money or just pissing off the users ? IMO the last one is true, for me at least. Getting spam from a compagny remains me to stop using it.
my rca hardware mp3 player comes with this evaluation version of "musicmatch jukebox". this software is NEEDED to put mp3s onto the player because it converts them into a proprietary format, yes, its not even mp3s.
i am very careful about programs associating itself with files. i make sure i look everywhere in the installer for this kind of crap. anyways i make sure its all unchecked, and after its installed i go into the options and change a couple of things, and guess what i find out? the options RECHECK all of the file associations so if you change other options and hit apply, its now associated with every music file format.
and if thats not enough the program has advertisements in every possible place. clicking on the wrong area of a window pops open their website asking you to upgrade. and when you go to exit the program you get a popup ad for the full version too, with the only button at the bottom saying "learn more" which again takes you to their website. the only way to get rid of this window is with the [x] button in the top right hand corner. absolutely horrible. and this is the only software you can use after paying hundreds of dollars for an "mp3" player. rca can go to hell.
Actually since this is contract law the idea of informed consent applies. If text is too small and the passage was not pointed out to the signer then judges routinely throw out parts of or entire contracts based on such behavior.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Personally, as much as I hate Real Networks, I think these guys are just being babies. I mean "Oh my god! I have to scroll ALL THE WAY DOWN!?" Oh the HUMANITY!
While it may be 'criminal' to decieve people in this manner, it does not necessarily mean it is 'illegal'. If there are no laws against it, then quite simply it is not 'illegal', at least from a criminal case standpoint.
However, the test for civil case is very different. As a user, do we, as a class, have a valid claim against Real et. al.? Perhaps. One possibility is for the lost time and service (internet service, for example), caused by spam originating from the real software. Can it be considered deliberate? Certainly. Malicious? That would be much harder to prove.
One thing I have learned is often, companies will settle rather than risk nasty, unintended disclosures through discovery proceedings.
If enough people are serious, then lets turn the tid and take back out rights, or at least place fear in the boardrooms of corporations who would herd consumers about like sheep. I'm up for some Pro Bono work.
SPAM, Rattlesnake can top off your pizza
Buy a domain name for your e-mail (or whatever) and then when asked for your e-mail address, use something like: realplayer@myname.com or amazon@myname.com etc. That way - when you get spammed, you have a rough idea of who to blame and a fairly straightforward way of filtering out the spam (simply shove all mail from realplayer@myname.com in /dev/null and most of it should go away.
:)
The address will be valid enough to allow you to receive your validation key/password/order confirmation, yet fairly disposable as it's unique to the site/company that's trying to spam you.
I've always done this - and the only address that gets loads of spam is newsgroups@.com
Some mail filters even let you 'bounce' the mail back as though it's undelivered. This tends to cause most corporate senders to remove you from their lists (sometimes this process is automated)!
Nick...
If you're using Windows 2000, do yourself a favor and get the msconfig.exe executable from a Windows 98 box. Copy it onto the 2000 box, and run it. It will complain about missing system.ini, etc, but don't let that ruin your day. You are only using this tool to disable programs from auto-starting when you reboot. Uncheck the programs you don't want to run (you can tell Real programs because they are in the Real directory, and msconfig tells you where they are), and you're done!
I install Real's bullshit on a regular basis for our users (I know, I know), and I just put in a fake email. So that way, if I get careless and forget about unchecking those things, it really doesn't matter in the end. But what do I know?
This way:
Or about all that legalese at the end of radio car commercials, where nobody possibly can humanly talk that fast, you just know it's sped up by computer but keeping the pitch the same? Lawyers love blocks of illegible text; their profession relies on the fact that you can't read or understand what the hell they are saying. Witness the constant use of riduculously rococo and meaningless terms like "forthwith" and "whereas".
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
It's been like this from the beginning, but it just keeps getting worse every year!
Someone should point out that we are talking about a free product here. It's annoying, but they can afford to offer a double-your-money-back guarantee.
People who disagree with you are not automatically evil, greedy, or stupid.
Below is a contract which I offer to you, in .00000000001pt font:
Please follow the instructions as printed above to accept or decline. Thank you for your time.
1. Try something completely illegal, like nospam@no.mail.
.com, like svkb@sdljbg.com
:)
2. Try something with a
3. me@privacy.net (or me1...me9). These adresses are actually valid, and made for this purpose.
4. If you need to "answer" to the mail, create a one-time throwaway account. On page 100 of google noone will recognize it as a "free account" if they don't like hotmail etc. Reply, and ditch account.
5. Don't ever give out your real email for any crap. Get a different one for all the newsletters/mailing lists etc. Give your real one only to real people(tm) on- and offline.
6. Enjoy a very spamfree account. That's what I have anyway
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Sending them Alan Ralski's e-mail address when registering?
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
No system I build includes it, and I advise whoever I build a system for that the program will cause problems if they try to install it.
Now I did once have a neat piece of hackware which played and recorded streamed
With only a few exceptions, (a couple of Zim Episodes. .
It's a turkey system on its way out because it's makers are greedy and manipulative. Good riddance.
Oh, and the best part, is that some twit exec may well be reading through this very thread. (Slashdot holds power this way.) To him/it: The lousy streak of luck in your life? That's there because everybody is directing their disrespect and ire at you on a global scale. That tight, sick sort of feeling in your gut? (If you're not just another boring sociopath, that is. .
Yes, try to laugh it off. But when the end of the day rolls around, the rest of us get to look at our accomplishments and feel good about our lives. Your accomplishments can only lead you into bitterness and denial.
Eating you, slowly, slowly. .
-Fantastic Lad
I always use made-up addresses like bob@microsoft.com.
:)
I hope no one at Microsoft uses that email address!
So, if I put an encoded microdot hidden in the dot above an 'i' that contains text specifying new terms, should you have to abide by the terms if you sign? After all, it was up to you to examine the contract for deception.
We've been down this road, and tried using market forces. Look what it got us in the 19th and early 20th century. Child laborers, workers in totally unsafe conditions (as in losing body parts), meat packing industries as described in Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. Or all the insurance scams of the 20s. Or the stock scandals that led to the big crash.
Everyone lost except for the robber barons. Products were unsafe, workers were harmed, jobs were lost, the economy wrecked. But someone made money, so the free market part worked.
Sure, we have these problems today. Guess what? Those laws you sneer at shut those companies down. Lawyers tear into them with class actions. Activists protest until the company is embarrassed enough to stop using a sweatshop. In the good ol' days, they could have just hired Pinkertons to go and kill them. No exaggeration.
There is a fatal flaw in all free market philosophies. The problem is that the market does not account for all costs, so costs get dumped on society. If a company uses hazardous materials, they can simply go out of business. The public gets stuck paying for the Superfund site cleanup. That's why we need those laws.
Services like Mailshell are great, because when you get spam from "realvideo @ myaddress.mailshell.com", you know exactly who spammed you and you can yell at them, and if you keep getting spam you can just throw away that disposable address.
The RealPlayer Scroll Down has long been something I have found less than ethnical but not illegal.
Likewise I find web sites with forms (please provide the 12 items we need) and at the bottom a box (or two) permissioning spam.
Many sites, if they refresh the form (because you left out a required item), refresh with the SPAM options "ON" even if you had previously turned them "OFF."
They:
A) Easily remember your name and adress and phone # , etc.
-- but --
B) Forget that you had deselected the SPAM choice and thoughtfully or not, reselect it everytime the form refreshes.
It should be illegal to remember "some" of my input but not all of when, esp. when the part they forget adds me to their SPAM list..
http://www.hawknest.com/
RealNetworks Inc is a member of the Better Business Bureau and have a "Satisfactory Record" (http://www.thebbb.org/report.html?compid=43000165 &national=Y). Why don't you file an official complaint citing Misrepresentation or Misleading Advertising.
that RealPlayer is crap, on top of being a trojan horse.
I can understand someone making a big deal out of this if it concerned deviously hiding these checkboxes on a web page registration page with javascript/dhtml... but accusing someone of "hiding" these checkboxes by "forcing" people to actually use the scrollbar is ridiculous. I mean it's not even hidden inside a 100 pages of a EULA. I guess I should sue every website for forcing me to scrolldown their registration pages on a 640 x 480 monitor... and as everyone else mentioned - junk email addresses... if someone gets spam from Real - they deserve it.
president@whitehouse.gov for my email address in RP.
"But then what do I know. I am no lawyer."
You know a hella lot more than the lawyers i work with!
You think that realplayer is sneaky? Remember that virus W32.Friendgreet.worm ? You had to read and click 2 eula's that both said it would forward to everyone on your mailing list before it would install on your system. Of the 3 ppl in our company skipped through the eula's and installed that virus, 2 were lawyers.
Is those that have a checkbox already checked for something, but only when you go to uncheck it you find that it can not be unchecked.
with this. I know it's a pain to have to use a program (a bit difficult to use sometimes) so that your file can be read by another program (all those extra clicks shorten the life of my fingers you know), but it's a lot less of a pain than having to deal with realplayer.
Why solder? Just accept that your "rapid-response" button became a "semi-rapid-response" button.
Most power buttons on ATX systems will perform a manual power-off if you hold the button in for 5 seconds.
If you just do a press-and-immediately-release it will ask the OS to start its shutdown procedure. In Windows, this pops up the "Shutdown" dialog box.
If you press the button and hold it in for about 5 seconds, the bios turns off power as if you had a real power switch. Kinda useful.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
Years ago I used to download it especialy looking for passwords and would go to the site and change them, but now there is just to much to bother with.
One of these days I'm going to learn enough about POP3 to figure out some things like
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
If Nike gets their way in court not only will deception by mindless corporate beings be legal, so will outright lying. Collusion between facisist corporate amerika and it's puppet government becomes less veiled daily.
Something along the lines of Root@127.0.0.1, webmaster@127.0.0.1, abuse@127.0.0.1, thisisnot@arealaddress.c0m, Invaild@invailid, eatspam@die, etc.
Worst comment ever! :-P
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
Simply enter abuse@real.com into any email address fields during Real Player setup - that way they spam themselves.
Of course you could always use abuse@fbi.gov...
Do you really think they don't filter out /.*\@real\.com$/ addresses?
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
then you deserve to get spam. That's what Hotmail is for. Gives you a free address that you don't care about, and soaks up bandwidth that Microsoft has to pay for. It's a win-win.
That's why I always use billg@microsoft.com. Back when he used to have a newpaper column (maybe he still does...) it said that he read all the mail to that address. [cough]bullshit[/cough]
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Around 2 years ago I purchased the real RealPlayer, because I was going to do some video development with it. I bought it online, and the purchase process was horrendous. After I clicked buy it, I was taken to a screen with a ton of things checked off for me, including signing up for their monthly subscription for realplayer maintenance - the gold package I think it was. I unchecked everything, but when I clicked next, there was another screen with different things and the gold player was checked on again. I unchecked everything again. Third screen, same thing.
Since I'm in tech, I would like to think I have some idea what's going on and not get tripped up by this stuff. But I can't imagine how the average user gets through this. Anyway, on the next months credit card bill, there it was, 11 and change charge for RealPlayer maintenence. I swear I unchecked everything. I wish I had taken screen shots to prove it. So I go on their web site to try and cancel. To get to my user account was very difficult (of course I wasn't aware I really had one so I had to figure it out) Under subscription maintenence, I finally found the option to cancel. I click cancel. Up pops a phone number to call to actually get it canceled. I was very busy, lots to do, and I think they counted on that. I had planned to cancel when I got home, but of course I forgot. I kept thinking about it at work, but when I got home I would forget again. Three more months went by, before I finally remembered on the weekend to sit down and take care of it. I had to go through the online process again to get the number, which I finally called and got it cancelled, which of course the guy tried to sell me real player again! Never, never, never again!!!
Um....No. If you are hiring a lawyer to read a document for you because you are too lazy to read it, you are wasting a lot of money.
The main reason to have a lawyer review contracts for you is to discover (in the lawyers opinion) how the contract will interact with local laws. An apparently innocuous clause in a contract can interact with laws to produce bad results. Just because a lawyer has reviewed a document doesn't me that you shouldn't also. You should question the lawyer in detail about anything in the contract that you don't fully understand. Don't sign anything that you don't understand.
The Economics of Website Security
I am sure that a company cannot make you sign something in .001pt Times
the only company that can do that is the mafia.
if you don't like or can't read a contract, don't sign it.
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. -- A.E.
Rumor has it that there are actually other windowing systems available, besides those produced by Microsoft, where RealPlayer is not placed into any system tray at all during startup.
Of course, using such a system might indicate a hackerish streak and an unnatural desire to control one's own desktop.
It's even better if they do because then their list of addresses to sell to spammers shrinks.
This is just one more reason why RealAudio sux and must just die. Who wants to look at a crapass streamed (read: interrupted and jittery) video the size of a dime when one *could* be looking at a nice MPEG or Quicktime video?
How about OLD! This is VERY old news. I documented where they did this and how to instal RealPlayer without any of it checked _three_years_ago_ for the help desk guys at my last employer. How is it that this is just being noticed & submitted now?!
Oh, and it's annoying, but not illegal. The options are only 'hidden' if you're the type of user who habitually clicks things without looking/reading. Meaning, they're not really hidden at all, and the user is at fault for being annoyed.
For that matter, who uses their actual e-mail address when they instal software?! Use me@privacy.net; it's a black hole for spam.
+++++++
"Look, dear, it's a crazy hairy scary man!"
Go back and re-uncheck those options. Hotmail is notrious for "forgetting" the fact that you unchecked those options. I have a hotmail address, for spam catching, and occasionally those check marks re-spawn inside the check boxes. At this point I have given up, and just let that address get spammed into oblivion, its usually full in a day or two, and I only check it when I am planning to use it to register with something that uses a mail validation system.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
He's close, though - substitute "should expect" for "deserve" and he's on the money. Or, rather, the rest of us should expect it, because if you're stupid enough to do it you're probably too stupid to expect it.
Sorry, my brain just turned to mush and slid down my neck hole while contemplating lawyers and their dirty tricks.
"Because a EULA goes multiple pages does not that mean you are not obligated to obey it because you couldn't read the whole thing..."
Where are you getting your information from, or is it only an opinion?
I've heard from reputable sources like the Office of Fair Trading, that the legality of EULAs is highly in doubt, and they probably could not be enforced, particularly in Britain, possibly in Europe, precisely because people don't read them, and they're too legalistic and complicated for the "average" user, who, like I said, generally won't read them.
So, you may very well, be entirely incorrect in your assertion that it's everyone's responsibility to read through the EULA.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
It isn't illegal anywhere in the United States, yet. But it also isn't "just" annoying. It's unethical, sleazy, and absolutely typical of Real Networks, one of the pioneers in spamming and other forms of abusive and intrusive marketing.
I don't use their product. If I did, it would be a cold day on the planet Mercury before I'd give them a working email address.
Catherine
I really do like listening to Amazon.com's samples before I buy a CD, and most of the Southpark episodes I download (can't get Comedy Central in my area) are encoded in RealMedia.
Lots of programs play .AVI files, and lots play .MP3 files. Why aren't there more .RM players?
"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased. Thus we refute entropy" - Spider Robinson
"If you're stupid enough to use your real address then you deserve to get spam.
That's utter crap. It's right up there with "if you don't install an alarm, you deserve to be burgled and the burgler will be innocent" and "if you wear such a short skirt, you deserve to be raped""
Well, how about,"If you baste yourself in gravy and walk into a cage full of ravenous wolves, you deserve to get eaten."?
Companies like Real will spam. That's the "Real" world, there buddy. It's like giving your front door key to a burglar and expecting them not to avail themselves of the oppurtunity, because you feel "that would be wrong!"
Crikey.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
In my opinion they have always been slezy and involved in data mining of personal information. They give me the impression that this is their real business and the software is just a front. I avoid having on my systems whenever possible. I always give preference to referring to using Quicktime or WMP. Maybe if people stop using their software, the company will join some of the other dot-gone's.
PS: I am not an "Anonymous Coward." I just don't want to expose myself to more spam.
Jim Weil
...to figuring this out? RealPlayer has had these "hidden" check boxes for years. I noticed those checked boxes at the bottom of a scroll list the first time I ever installed RealPlayer. My thought was, "hey, that's sneaky."
I would happily switch to another server/encoder solution if it freed me and my viewership from the shackles of Real. Does anybody know of a scheduling program for RealServer/RealProducer or for other solutions/formats like Windows Media or Quicktime?
If I didn't sign up for it than it's spam and will be treated as such. There are so many other products out there that are as good or better why use Real anyways. They have been pulling this crap for years (which is how long ago I switched)
Even though the Indiana law makers have ABSOLUTLY no idea what they are doing, they are passing a law very quickly to allow me to get 300$ for each time I recieve a spam that is deceptive in ANY way, if I can track them down.
All of the news organizations here have stated that no one expects them to use the law, citing it being near impossible for anyone to track them down.
We'll see about that.
(This is somewhat on topic.)
http://use.perl.org
Your right. You are not their customer. There customers are the ones who publish the content. The player exists only because it is necesary to make the proprietary format worth something. The player only has to impress who ever is considering publishing content with their streaming software and not the people who actualy use it.
Please check all the boxes you don't not want to recieve no valuable consumer information about:
[all boxes are checked]
Now, what do I do? Uncheck them all? Keep them checked? I'm confused.... Help! This is illegal!
In my view, disposable e-mail addresses with systems like mailshell are definitely the best solution, I find the little additional work of getting a new address is really worth it. There are quite a number of such services, a few more links: ...
Sneakemail, the oldest one of these system - there is still a free version (with limited mail size)
emailias.com, I find it very convenient, a lot of options (19.95$/year)
Spamex, a similar service ($9.95/year)
Spamgourmet, a slightly unusual, but interesting system, free
These services are quite sophisticated, with most of them you can reply to mails in any mail client without giving away the real address because the reply-to address is replaced and the answer will first go to the DEA, where it recieves the appropriate from-address; with emailias and others you can forward different alias addresses to different real addresses,
More information: PC Magazine article about DEA system with reviews
And not filling out the form with @127.0.0.1 as their E-mail address?
And doesn't list themselves as under 13?
And doesn't list their country as Uganda?
COME ON. Everyone knows how spammish Real is. That's why when someone says "get real!" I say, "I'd rather not, thank you."
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
I won't touch Realplayer since they rolled out RealOne. Installing it is like dropping a bomb in your system...Its tentacles spread out and take over your box. Popups, beg screens, download managers, spyware, and association takeovers are par for the course, if I remember right (It's been awhile since I installed it last). I still use G2, at least it's a little more managable. And if the content requires RealOne, I just move right along.
-R
They've been doing this since RealPlayer 8.
See the rant from the last time this appeared on Slashdot, roughly August 2001, and my embellishments to it. I added a lengthy 12-step process for installing RealPlayer that is the best that can be done for disabling spam/spyware given the few options they give you:
http://www.krellan.com/rant/real.html
Also look at this funny picture that someone anonymously posted long ago, when a frustrated user decorated Real's building! If anyone knows the original source, I'd love to know it.
http://www.krellan.com/rant/real-buffering.jpg
Dr. Demento On The 'Net!
1. can I just download headers? TOP 1,0 (1 is message #, 0 is # of lines to get after headers) 2. can I delete specific Email from the server w/o downloading the whole message? DELE 1 (1 is message #)
Every cloud has a silver lining (except for the mushroom shaped ones, which have a lining of Iridium & Strontium 90)
It's only useful to modem users. 99% of the streaming video and audio made with Real anything has very low quality and requires you to use a microscope to watch.
Real has ALWAYS implented hidden and misleading configuration options.
Real should have fallen by the wayside long ago(I bet it's being propted up by the RIAA).
Why don't lawyers advertise on Slashdot? Seems like it would be one of the few banner ad campaigns that work.
noyfb@hotmail.com must be getting shit loads of spam from real...
Who in their right (or left) mind puts their real email into those stupid things anyway?
"Smile, listen, agree, and then do whatever the fuck you wanted to do anyway." ~Robert Downey Jr.
I don't use the real player anymore, period. I don't trust a program that tries to contact the internet without telling me what it's going to do. Furthermore, the last time I installed it (quite a while ago), it tried to change my www home page. This is one of my biggest pet peeves with software. Just because I dl your software, I want to change my home page to your crappy website? How does that follow?
Same goes for ICQ.
WWJD? JWRTFA!
I use StartupMonitor to let me know when a program tries to install itself on startup (windows). It works like a charm, and I've managed to catch several spyware/adware programs this way. It allows you to decide whether you want to allow the program to install or not.
I highly recommend it, with the following advice: turn it off before installing a service pack!!!! The only way to turn it off, unfortunately, is from task manager.
I found out about a year ago I was infected with adware. I was getting pop-up ads on google and on my bank's website, which seemed rather odd, when Google put up a link on the front page about how they don't use pop-up ads and why. I had not heard of adware before then, but it made me really really angry. I killed the adware with Ad-Aware, got myself a firewall, and installed StartupMonitor, and wrote to the Federal Trade Commission. I got a form letter back from the FTC thanking me for writing to them about unsolicited commercial email, and assuring me that they were going to eventually do something about it. Guess they hadn't written the spyware form letter yet.
WWJD? JWRTFA!
This happened because you're a consumer sheep. Make a reasonable effort to tell them exactly what you do and do not want (eg uncheck the boxes once). If they still charge you, call your bank/credit card company and request that they remove the fraudulent charges, and state that you'll be happy to serve as witness if they choose to pursue litigation.
Of course, this is what you get for supporting a closed and the shady company that pushes it.
funny munging
"during installation RealPlayer hides checkboxes that elect that the user receives spam, making it look like the user chose to make the selections when in fact he probably just didn't see the options."
Ok, if you do agree to a EULA no matter how long, it's binding I guess- but what I was reading here, was that they were doing something like making the text and the background, and the checkboxes the same colors, so that in essence they were invisible. That's what I thought it meant. If they were just making the EULA too long, well that's ok I guess. If they actually made it so you couldn't see the checkboxes, no matter how hard you looked, then that's illegal.
I Personally think it should be illegal to make it so that every one of your Millions of users needs to get a lawyer so they can play a streaming file from CNN.com, because you can't make anything simple. I have seen some Great contracts and EULAs that were really simple, and alot more effective I felt because of this straightforwardness...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
(Line stolen from Tinra)
if you can get the RM file (not streaming), you can use a prog called TINRA. I used it before and it works wonders. There were some syncing issues but overall a wonderful program. (RM->AVI)
Tinra from divx-digest
If you must, then try these:
Real.com Contact page
the page above has their "Contact Us" email addys around the world. I wonder if their sleazeware checks for these?
--"if its illegal just forget I said it
It is as legal as if they made the "tiny print" in legal documents in invisible ink....
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
Flamebait, yes, offtopic, no. Just because he got some of your pro-GPL undies in a bunch, doesn't mean he's wrong :) The PETA comparison is a fine one, btw.
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
"The default unchecked boxes that are visible at the outset clearly lead the user to believe that ALL of the boxes are unchecked, and the avg customer probably won't think to scroll all the way down and uncheck these boxes."
probably i'm not the avg customer, but how hard can it be, scrolling down?
An other thing is the hotmail trick. add a new spam feature ans assume all the users are interested and check the 'i want spam' checkboxes. not THAT was dirty.
Privacy is terrorism.
.no is the TLD for Norway, so i usually click on Norway for the country, just in case they validate emails.
Let MS's Hotmail division deal with the consequences, but when it comes to registration requiired proprietary software, I always use a drop account. They can spam me all they want, I never access those accounst anyway.
IANAL, but in Australia, this would be bordering on Misleading And Deceptive Conduct... I will be notifying the ACCC.
Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
So I have 23 trained cats (2 leaders and 21 performers). Cool.
I mean, after two clicks in the registration dialog, just by looking at the options, everyone must think: DON`T use this software. So it`s your fault. Don`t complain now...
Sure, companies that do this suck very badly, and I'm not on their side. But that should be obvious. I just think we should see both sides of it.
Of course, if the checkboxes or option to clear the email solicitations are completely hidden or are sent to us anyway without our knowledge and this is not a part of the agreement, then there are privacy or breach-of-contract issues that need to be dealt with.
I have installed real player so long ago (since runnig xp in have'nt had the need to reinstall windows for a year now). I can clearly remember that annoying scrollbox with all the news letters in. I have showed it to many people during installation and said - look, it's not good - there is a lot of space on the dialog window, the are trying to fool you.
:-) !!
But thats all it is - a way to fool you, so don't fall for it. N E Wayz - who installs realplayer and supplies there real email address ?! name@company.com works for me
Hell, I just never type in a real e-mail address. BTW, whoever owns "bob@bob.com", I'm truely sorry.
It seems a little bit incongruous to argue over the question of choice or a lack of informed consent when it comes to installing RealPlayer.
This piece of shit is padded with piles of spyware anyhow so whether or not you are asked if u would like to be spammed is perhaps presupposing that you have decided that u do want to install a whole load of commercial crap on top of what u asked for in the first place.
And if u did install RealShitPlayer knowing that it came with all the hidden "features" then it hardly seems that you care about what is installed on your system, with or without your consent.
Simple. Don't install it.
I disagree. The difference is burglary and rape are illegal. Spam (which was agreed to) is not.
:/
If you want to continue with the "proof by analogy" rubbish then how about this: Giving a junk e-mail address is like wearing a seatbelt. It's just a precaution against the undesired.
To hell with you, troll.
Ahh. you're a troll, aren't you? Well fair cop. I fell for it.
If there are documents referred to by links, it's your responsibility to read those as well.
I'm no lawyer, but in the few cases I've heard of judges took a VERY dim view of links to external documents and ruled them inapplicable. If it isn't included in the document itself don't expect it to be binding.
Hell, the entire concept of EULA's is still up in the air. Judges have been jumping through hoops to avoid the issue. They find some other grounds - any other grounds - on which to decide the case.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
If you MUST use RealPlayer, perhaps you can make do with an older version?
(If my opinions have already been posted, sorry for being redundant...)
:-)) then I would be concerned. But they don't.
I hate to be a troll, but if a Linux app did this, almost no one here would be complaining about it. Since this "crime" was committed on Hell's Official OS by one of The Prince of Darkness' right-hand companies (to hear some people speak about MS and RealNetworks), this thread generates 500 replies in less than a day.
I don't have much sympathy for people who click through 12 screens of prompts and options when installing programs. As well, Real isn't the only type of software that does this! A large number of software that involves media and/or connecting to an external site offers spam subscription, as well as magazine subscriptions, credit card applications, etc etc etc... And these are often hidden away in very small type so that you don't see it.
The thing that bothers me more about RealPlayer is that it assumes that you want to use it for EVERY SINGLE FILE TYPE. You have to scroll through this long list of apps and unclick them all, because it selects them automatically. But I am hardly going to try and sue the company for this.
Take a bit of responsibility for your own actions. If they did this automatically with no chance of opting out, or if they offered a choice in a foreign language (other than legal-ese
It is precisely this behaviour from Real which makes me annoyed that the BBC only put content out in Real formats - both audio and video. At the time they made the choice Real was the only mature format available, and they now have such a large installed base of (totally non techie) viewers and listeners with their computers set up for Real that changing would be very disruptive.
I would like to see them make other formats available, but the cost of implemeting streams in multiple formats is probably prohibitive. But it is galling that the Public Service broadcaster, who I and almost everyody in this country is compelled to finance, is channeling millions of customers to an organisation with objectional business practices.
Dunstan
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
Besides, Real has always sucked. I've never been able to figure out their popularity. From what I've seen, over the years they seem to consistently have the lowest-quality streaming out there at any given time.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
I have used a fake email address with realplayer since 1998. points to /dev/null. has never been a problem.
If you think real.com is being deceptive, you could complain about it.
"The cup... the drop... it's a YES!"
Basicaly I agree with you and alot of people do know, but one of our employees did this. She wanted to install AOL 8.0 on her computer at home, so she unistalled the previous version from her machine on her own, then popped in the 8.0 cd and found out it was an upgrade only. So she formated her C: drive and reinstalled Win98 to get the aol from the OEM, then upgraded to WinME then installed the AOL8.0 upgrade taking four hours to get it all working.
Now do people like this know what a scrollbar means?
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
I should have qualified this statement...it's your responsibility to read the links so you know what impact the program will have on your computer. It's not illegal for a program to ask for you information and then spam you constantly, especially if you gave your consent by clicking agree. Nothing illegal there. Now, you may not have known that you were consenting to that because it was written in their on-site agreement, which changes regularly (or something), so they don't include it in the software.
You're right, an external link couldn't be held up in a court of law, but neither could a lawsuit that you file because you got 400 spam emails a day from a company that sold your email address becaues you didn't read the appropriate documents that would have convinced you to click 'Disagree'.
--trb
Very perceptive. And that is why we should not only not use Real - I don't, but it was something else even more unacceptable in their EULA that I refused to sign - but let all the content providers who pay Real know that we are not reading their pages because they are dealing an unethical company.
People should not fear their government. Governments should fear their people.
Or use me@privacy.net . That address was especially set up for that sort of thing.
Esli epei etot cumprenan, shris soa Sfaha.
Spam is not illegal in every jurisdiction.
Engaging in deceptive consumer practices (i.e. hidden, abscure contract clauses) is not illegal in every jurisdiction.
Writing a contract in legalize is probably required in New York or California, optional in Colorado, and discouraged in Texas.
Hiding contract provisions again is probably legal and enforcable in many jurisdictions.
So to answer the question about RealPlayer and spam (now I know who sold my hotmail address) you need to specify what jurisdiction does RealPlayer operate under and do the users agree to operate under those laws.
But still this practice RealPlayer engages in should be considered unethical and just not good business practice.
IMHO: A series of reasonably sized dialogs asking you to agree to each of the terms (with explainations of what will happen when you agree to each term) would be ethical.
Supra et Ultra
Your spelling.
...but certainly unethical, and clearly indicative of a company you want to avoid dealing with whenever possible.
Go to the software company's website and find any email address you can.
Then use that email address when you fill out their forms and select ALL the email options as "YES - I would LOVE your garbage!" - so any SPAM they send will be to themselves.
Everyone at Real will die in a horrendous second coming of christ.
I AM MORBO, THE ENFORCER!
I found that after downloading an update, they **assumed** I wanted to have the $9,99/mo option of subscribing to the RealOne network re-enabled.
After seeing $9,99 stolen from my account, I updated the creditcard data to be invalid (11-proof error) and then deactivated the horror.
Better watch out for this one.
Floor.
--- Floris A.C. Naaijkens, (http://www.testconcepts.biz)