But it is not JUST the simplicity, or the services functioning to make the system "easy" to use that causes poor security. There are other systems, just as geared to the computer neophyte, that do not have this many holes. For example, MacOS.
Yes, it has some holes (OS-9 had a hole that allowed it to become a slave in a DDoS, but it was patched) but not that many. Yet it is (arguably) easier to use than Microsoft's product. Having a much better online help system helps. Having a more coherent and consistent gui helps.
Linux also is getting very to use (NOT set up, but easy to USE), but there are not near as many holes. Its gui is getting better. Help systems need a little polishing.
Microsoft's security problems are not solely caused by making the system easy to use. They are caused by using functions/scripts that make a fundamentally Byzantine system SEEM easy.
Tom Dutton
Re:This seems rather interesting
on
The Roots Of BSD
·
· Score: 1
That is a daemon, dude. And you do not want him to get nasty with that pitchfork, do ya? Besides, is it just me or did Tux really gain a little weight. Man, is his new ass huge!
Whta the article really shows, though, is how easy it is to "fail", not that BSD really failed...but the perception is that it has, and that Linux carries the flame now.
OK, so you hate them. Don't post on Apple topics, then. Or, is it that "I hate them" and "When they do something I do not like, than I feel fuzzy and justified", but if "They do something cool, I can dismiss it". Hmmmm. Very balanced atttitude.
Of course, there are more differences between MacOS7 and MacOS9 than there are between Win 3.1, and Win9x and NT. Just because Apple uses proper VERSION NUMBERS does not mean that there are not significant changes. Microsoft is HOPING you think the radical name changes == radical new OS.
hello ac, god here. Hmmm, yes. I see your point. Kul3r su>orz. From this point on, sky...grey, leaves...black, water, beige. Oh, hope you like black cars. As I type on my G3 with a 4 button scroll mouse. Cheers, god
Now, I like fantasy and sci-fi as much as the next person here. But If Dune, LotR are you fave books/best books you read, etc then you do not read enough or widely enough.
I saw the trailer for LotR, and nearly dies of laughter AND anger when that BS "best book of the century" line was narrated. Ever hear of Ulyses?
These books are pretty shallow, even good sci-fi/fantasy. Lem may be an exception.
C'mon, guys. You/we are a rather intelligent bunch. Do any of us here read non-sci-fi or non-programming stuff? Italo Calvino? J L Borges? Henry Miller? Celine? Winterson? Toni Morrisson?
These are great authors. Almost any of their works, even the less well thought out titles blows Dune or LotR away. Like I said, I like them...same way I like Unreal or Whoppers and Fries.
I think you misunderstand the term. Atheism is the beleif that there are not any gods. It would be silly to be mad or sad at something because it does not exist.
As for being radical or agressive about it...how would you like to live in a culture that shoves (xtian) god down your throat constantly?
The middle of the spectrum is for those who exhibit true moderation and wisdom, admiting that they do not know (Socrates). The extremes either deny any possibility of the divine, or have let reason become torn assunder to faith,
Just a thought. Watch for analogies that compare thought to spectrums. They can always be drawn funny.
Hello/. terminal. I am a Mac user, but no, I do not hate you. I think you have some very misguided opinions of the Mac. Maybe (and I am only guessing) you have not really used one in some time. Correction below:
"As far as macs go yes I do have a bias. A superior hardware set perhaps, "
Totally superior in terms of QoS. Never had a system with a HW failure or IRQ setting problem. PnP that works. nuff said.
"a good OS I do not believe (I have my own ideas about a user interface and that there should be an option to use a GUI or not)"
Agree. Now 'bout that OS-X...
", good upgradeability (well it may be upgradeable but it's far easier and more documented to upgrade a IBM PC and compatable machine "
No. Vendors sell a good array of g3 and g4 upgrades. I can even upgrade 6+ year old Macs to a current Porcessor. Can you upgrade a 386 to a p-iii?
"(I have a book at home that is at least 1000+ pages on the subject and there are literally thousands more), "
Hey wow, me too. Mac Upgrade and Repair Bible.
"also cost is a factor. "
You get what you pay for.
"Simply I will run anything that has modern applications, "
Like Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark, Office, Flash, Dreamweaver, Director, Final Cut Pro...
"will run linux and dosn't cost more than a cheap price. "
Linux PPC, Yellow Dog, SuSE, Debian...
"I can get a new PIII linux system from a vendor at pricewatch for around $600 United States Dollars now that with linux preinstalled. You can't say that about a Mac and at the end of the day I like a cheap computer "
Get what you pay for.
"that I can upgrade the most readily "
PnP that works is not "readily enough"?
"and that dosn't have a tradition of being a and holding computer for people who like pretty pictures. "
Maybe you like to fight with your tools...but I want to get work done, fast and with a minimal amount of BS.
Anyhoo. Do Not Feed the Trolls. They are looking for comments like you posted, just to get your goat. Consider the source and all that...
"Did these photoshop twiddlers ever think for a second that there are mutiple studies done that time reading comprehension and accuracy that PROVE that fonts, serif fonts, in fact, on a white background are easiest to read. White on grey is arrogantly obnoxious. "
Uhhh, Wrong. That study was for Black (actually "blue-black")serif fonts on White PAPER. Your monitor acts differently. White backgrounds on monitors are damaging (eye-strain) and not very easy to read. Actually for monitors, white SANS serif text on dk blue background works best.
"In general, fewer violent crimes take place in areas with non-discretionary CCW laws, "
Like in Tampa, Miami, Dallas, Houston and phoenix, I suppose. Note: 4 of the above have more violent crime that Chicago (where I live) and the two Fl cities both place in the top ten (though their populations are relatively small) in violent crime. In fact, Miami, at 1/5 the size, is much more dangerous than NYC. Tampa, at 1/20 the size is almost as dangerous. Lived in TPA, NYC and CHI. safest of the three is easily CHI. TPA was scary indeed.
There is more to the crime issue than the preponderance of guns ot the ability to CCW. Other factors intersect. The local economy. Race relations. Police brutality issues. War-on-drugs busts often have a negative impact on violent crime stats. Violence escalates as new dealers fight for the turf of an established pusher if said pusher gets nabbed.
Some places with CCW have low crime (Austin). Some places without guns have high crime (DC). It is just not that simple
OK BS ALERT! And time for a history lesson. The Fascists were NOT left wing. They are right wing, as opposed to socialists, who are left wing.
There once was a philosopher named Hegel. Very powerful was he. He had many students. Some of these thought his most important idea was the idea that change is dialectical and that history is the story of how masters enslaved the masses, but the massed will work through history to liberate themselves.
Sound Familiar...WHY YES. This is where Marx got Dialectic Materialism from IE the foundation of SOCIALISM. (true socialism = liberation of the masses or proles).
Some of Hegel's students thought his most important idea was that states arose as the embodied will of the people. The state was the highest achievement of mankind (Hegel does not, of course mention women). These Statists upheld the right of the state.
Sound familiar. Why yes, Fascism has its roots here.
Now in reality, the USSR was MORE statist (or facist) than it was ever socialist. Even though it took its name from socialism, Marx would roll over in his grave if he saw what his revolution came to.
Err... I'll ignore your strange view of French history for the time being, but this is a metaphor for what? Do you expect Linux, ESR, and RMS to go around wiping the hard drives of whom? I don't really know... and then sell out to whom again? To our friend Bill? Or to Larry, since as of yesterday he is now the richest kid on the block?
i respond:
No. RMS/ESR will fire up the guillotine, executing the old king (gates? ellison?), making a population so bloodthirsty and used to a state of conflict we will elect our own Bonaparte. Who this is, I dunno. Young? Hemos? (heehee)
This is the danger of heroworship. It makes one blind.
I never said his values are worng. I also never said he does not do other stuff. I merely said he need to step down as some kind of figurehead. He does NOT make a good spokesperson.
Personally, I like him. Linux is but a kernel without him. I like his honesty. But that does not change my above post.
Agree with your last statement. For a nation that supposedly prides itself on individualism, we often, when we are free to chose our course of action, follow the herd. (sad)
No, guess I do not get the "time-honored" art of flaming. I guess I would rather see reasoned dialogue and well thought statements, backed by facts, rather than lame fud that big-bro is coming. And these are hardly skillful jabs, more like fifth-grade chest thumping.
And, no, he is not really a great thinker. I never claimed to be one either. But of course, this is an artful jab from Kaa the great? It does not answer the point I raised. Also, I suppose those of us without time or inclination to write and publicize essays can not be allowed to criticize those who do? Or will we submit that only essayists can crit essays?
Linux won in the court of public opinion. Nobody knew what it was or who LT was just 4 years ago. Now he gets the cover of Industry Standard and pix in Times. Looks like a victory to me. Now we have to solidify these gains into something stable. I never said we were done.
And we should do exactly what you fear. Go back to your cubilce or bedroom/study/livingroom/office and write good code. Publicize it with an eye to who you want to buy it. EMS is a shit sales rep. We DO need em, little tho we might want to admit it.
And, that does not imply taking Gates or McNealy as a hero. Whay do we need one anyway? Heroworship is not needed and will not make Linux more successful.
My view of History (as stated) is indeed reductionist. The real saga is best covered in a longer format. But as for strange...what French history do you read. The same forces (bourgeoisie) that formented the revolution ELECTED Bonapart king, and he then took the crown in his own hands and declared himself emperor.
Moderators. The post I orig wrote is not really flamebait. I can see the case that it borders on Troll. Anyhoo.
This is childish at best. Especially ESR. He really is as embarassing to OSS/Linux as RMS.
Just to respond to some posts:
ESR is NOT a definitive part of what we do. WE ARE.
ESR is not a great thinker. He is a clever manipulator. Lessig is not any better.
We are better than this. RMS's viral license, ESR's mouth and BP's ego do a dis-service to the work WE put in. You do not really see LT shooting his mouth off, do ya.
These three (and Lessig) are a joke. There may have been a time when RMS/ESR/BP made some contributions. Their time is past. The revolution is over. Linux won. Linux has legitimacy. It has coders. It has capital. It has standing. It has market share.
We need to retire the revolutionaries. In the US, we transitioned from a revolutionary tribunal to a Federal Republic. In France, they did not make the transition, and the revolutionaries committed atrocities and sold it out to Bonaparte.
Where do we want to be 5 years from now?
Retire them. They did their bit. But they are mucking up the jobs we need to do now. We need leaders, not ESR's bad logic and big mouth and warmed over Rand. We need people who can build something of this momentum.
If Linux loses momentum, you can place the blame not with the coders or the code, but the fanatics who represent us poorly.
Indeed. G3 does not run x86 sw well at all. All I ment here was that the laptop case v a plain ol case v an iMac case will all, even using the same chip, require different cooling mechanisms. That new fanless iMac does get toasty, but not like the iBook's bottom!
We are changing overnight. It just depends on what you mean by "changing overnight". In 1980 nobody had a pc. nobody had cellphones. nobody had pda. nobody could order groceries or takeout over the net...hell nobody used the www. Now, just 20 years later (in terms of invention and tech - overnight) I can surf the net from a portable computer, after synching my palm v, across a wireless home network, order a pizza, and not have to pay the driver if i use visa.
It is not just the heat a chip produces that makes fans necessary, though. In a laptop case, there is NO possibility of good convection/conduction of heat. It can not dissipate unaided. For example. a 400 Mhz G3 iMac does not need a fan but a 300 Mhz G3 iBook does. The sealed case will make things worse. Crusoe is not much cooler or low current draw than a G3 is. IIRC, Crusoe is =/- 2. G3 is +/- 5 with AMD adn dIntel in the 20 range even for mobile. In terms of power consumption, someone mentioned speakers and drives as a hog...but the biggest hog is the screen. We just do not have good low power LCDs.
Slashdot Mirror
But it is not JUST the simplicity, or the services functioning to make the system "easy" to use that causes poor security. There are other systems, just as geared to the computer neophyte, that do not have this many holes. For example, MacOS.
Yes, it has some holes (OS-9 had a hole that allowed it to become a slave in a DDoS, but it was patched) but not that many. Yet it is (arguably) easier to use than Microsoft's product. Having a much better online help system helps. Having a more coherent and consistent gui helps.
Linux also is getting very to use (NOT set up, but easy to USE), but there are not near as many holes. Its gui is getting better. Help systems need a little polishing.
Microsoft's security problems are not solely caused by making the system easy to use. They are caused by using functions/scripts that make a fundamentally Byzantine system SEEM easy.
Tom Dutton
That is a daemon, dude. And you do not want him to get nasty with that pitchfork, do ya? Besides, is it just me or did Tux really gain a little weight. Man, is his new ass huge!
Whta the article really shows, though, is how easy it is to "fail", not that BSD really failed...but the perception is that it has, and that Linux carries the flame now.
Tom
OK, so you hate them. Don't post on Apple topics, then. Or, is it that "I hate them" and "When they do something I do not like, than I feel fuzzy and justified", but if "They do something cool, I can dismiss it". Hmmmm. Very balanced atttitude.
Tom
Of course, there are more differences between MacOS7 and MacOS9 than there are between Win 3.1, and Win9x and NT. Just because Apple uses proper VERSION NUMBERS does not mean that there are not significant changes. Microsoft is HOPING you think the radical name changes == radical new OS.
Tom
hello ac, god here. Hmmm, yes. I see your point. Kul3r su>orz. From this point on, sky...grey, leaves...black, water, beige. Oh, hope you like black cars. As I type on my G3 with a 4 button scroll mouse. Cheers, god
Now, I like fantasy and sci-fi as much as the next person here. But If Dune, LotR are you fave books/best books you read, etc then you do not read enough or widely enough.
I saw the trailer for LotR, and nearly dies of laughter AND anger when that BS "best book of the century" line was narrated. Ever hear of Ulyses?
These books are pretty shallow, even good sci-fi/fantasy. Lem may be an exception.
C'mon, guys. You/we are a rather intelligent bunch. Do any of us here read non-sci-fi or non-programming stuff? Italo Calvino? J L Borges? Henry Miller? Celine? Winterson? Toni Morrisson?
These are great authors. Almost any of their works, even the less well thought out titles blows Dune or LotR away. Like I said, I like them...same way I like Unreal or Whoppers and Fries.
Tom
Hello,
I think you misunderstand the term. Atheism is the beleif that there are not any gods. It would be silly to be mad or sad at something because it does not exist.
As for being radical or agressive about it...how would you like to live in a culture that shoves (xtian) god down your throat constantly?
Tom
Hmmm, An Athlon w/ 256 MB RAM or my G4-500 with 768 MB RAM.
See how easy it is to fsck with either-or constructs?
One is a current machine (Athlon), pretty decent, but nothing to write home about. One is a really cool hack.
Tom
Uhhh...You said:
Mac Users love to go on and on about there love, there company, and how much PCs suck (and, how much there users must be stupid to use them).
Then:
I can only be insulted so many times by a user base before I start to revile them
And then:
no one advocates Microsoft 'cept for brainwashed MCSEs, who are too unintelligent to count.
So, are you logic-impaired, dealing with cranial-rectal inversion, or simply really stoopid.
Just a question, Troll.
Tom
OOPS.
Make that Deists = Satanists, CoS and xtians.
Have not had coffee yet.
But doesn't it depend on how you define the spectrum? I mean, MY spectrum looks like this:
Atheists ----- Agnostics -------- Deists/Religious
Where Deists = Satanists, CoS and Satanists.
The middle of the spectrum is for those who exhibit true moderation and wisdom, admiting that they do not know (Socrates). The extremes either deny any possibility of the divine, or have let reason become torn assunder to faith,
Just a thought. Watch for analogies that compare thought to spectrums. They can always be drawn funny.
Tom Dutton
Hello /. terminal. I am a Mac user, but no, I do not hate you. I think you have some very misguided opinions of the Mac. Maybe (and I am only guessing) you have not really used one in some time. Correction below:
"As far as macs go yes I do have a bias. A superior hardware set perhaps, "
Totally superior in terms of QoS. Never had a system with a HW failure or IRQ setting problem. PnP that works. nuff said.
"a good OS I do not believe (I have my own ideas about a user interface and that there should be an option to use a GUI or not)"
Agree. Now 'bout that OS-X...
", good upgradeability (well it may be upgradeable but it's far easier and more documented to upgrade a IBM PC and compatable machine "
No. Vendors sell a good array of g3 and g4 upgrades. I can even upgrade 6+ year old Macs to a current Porcessor. Can you upgrade a 386 to a p-iii?
"(I have a book at home that is at least 1000+ pages on the subject and there are literally thousands more), "
Hey wow, me too. Mac Upgrade and Repair Bible.
"also cost is a factor. "
You get what you pay for.
"Simply I will run anything that has modern applications, "
Like Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark, Office, Flash, Dreamweaver, Director, Final Cut Pro...
"will run linux and dosn't cost more than a cheap price. "
Linux PPC, Yellow Dog, SuSE, Debian...
"I can get a new PIII linux system from a vendor at pricewatch for around $600 United States Dollars now that with linux preinstalled. You can't say that about a Mac and at the end of
the day I like a cheap computer "
Get what you pay for.
"that I can upgrade the most readily "
PnP that works is not "readily enough"?
"and that dosn't have a tradition of being a and holding computer for people who like pretty pictures. "
Maybe you like to fight with your tools...but I want to get work done, fast and with a minimal amount of BS.
Anyhoo. Do Not Feed the Trolls. They are looking for comments like you posted, just to get your goat. Consider the source and all that...
Tom
"Did these photoshop twiddlers ever think for a second that there are mutiple studies done that time reading comprehension and accuracy that PROVE that fonts, serif fonts, in fact, on a white background are easiest to read. White on grey is arrogantly obnoxious. "
Uhhh, Wrong. That study was for Black (actually "blue-black")serif fonts on White PAPER. Your monitor acts differently. White backgrounds on monitors are damaging (eye-strain) and not very easy to read. Actually for monitors, white SANS serif text on dk blue background works best.
Carry on, mate.
just like Microsoft BOB!
Yes.
With lotsa dancing Paperclips!
"In general, fewer violent crimes take place in areas with non-discretionary CCW laws, "
Like in Tampa, Miami, Dallas, Houston and phoenix, I suppose. Note: 4 of the above have more violent crime that Chicago (where I live) and the two Fl cities both place in the top ten (though their populations are relatively small) in violent crime. In fact, Miami, at 1/5 the size, is much more dangerous than NYC. Tampa, at 1/20 the size is almost as dangerous. Lived in TPA, NYC and CHI. safest of the three is easily CHI. TPA was scary indeed.
There is more to the crime issue than the preponderance of guns ot the ability to CCW. Other factors intersect. The local economy. Race relations. Police brutality issues. War-on-drugs busts often have a negative impact on violent crime stats. Violence escalates as new dealers fight for the turf of an established pusher if said pusher gets nabbed.
Some places with CCW have low crime (Austin). Some places without guns have high crime (DC). It is just not that simple
Tom Dutton
OK BS ALERT! And time for a history lesson. The Fascists were NOT left wing. They are right wing, as opposed to socialists, who are left wing.
There once was a philosopher named Hegel. Very powerful was he. He had many students. Some of these thought his most important idea was the idea that change is dialectical and that history is the story of how masters enslaved the masses, but the massed will work through history to liberate themselves.
Sound Familiar...WHY YES. This is where Marx got Dialectic Materialism from IE the foundation of SOCIALISM. (true socialism = liberation of the masses or proles).
Some of Hegel's students thought his most important idea was that states arose as the embodied will of the people. The state was the highest achievement of mankind (Hegel does not, of course mention women). These Statists upheld the right of the state.
Sound familiar. Why yes, Fascism has its roots here.
Now in reality, the USSR was MORE statist (or facist) than it was ever socialist. Even though it took its name from socialism, Marx would roll over in his grave if he saw what his revolution came to.
History lesson over.
Tom Dutton
Kaa,
Forgot a point:
you wrote:
Err... I'll ignore your strange view of French history for the time being, but this is a metaphor for what? Do you expect Linux, ESR, and RMS to go around wiping the hard drives of whom? I don't really know... and then sell out to whom again? To our friend Bill? Or to Larry, since as of yesterday he is now the richest kid on the block?
i respond:
No. RMS/ESR will fire up the guillotine, executing the old king (gates? ellison?), making a population so bloodthirsty and used to a state of conflict we will elect our own Bonaparte. Who this is, I dunno. Young? Hemos? (heehee)
This is the danger of heroworship. It makes one blind.
Hello,
I never said his values are worng. I also never said he does not do other stuff. I merely said he need to step down as some kind of figurehead. He does NOT make a good spokesperson.
Personally, I like him. Linux is but a kernel without him. I like his honesty. But that does not change my above post.
Agree with your last statement. For a nation that supposedly prides itself on individualism, we often, when we are free to chose our course of action, follow the herd. (sad)
Tom Dutton
Hello, Kaa,
No, guess I do not get the "time-honored" art of flaming. I guess I would rather see reasoned dialogue and well thought statements, backed by facts, rather than lame fud that big-bro is coming. And these are hardly skillful jabs, more like fifth-grade chest thumping.
And, no, he is not really a great thinker. I never claimed to be one either. But of course, this is an artful jab from Kaa the great? It does not answer the point I raised. Also, I suppose those of us without time or inclination to write and publicize essays can not be allowed to criticize those who do? Or will we submit that only essayists can crit essays?
Linux won in the court of public opinion. Nobody knew what it was or who LT was just 4 years ago. Now he gets the cover of Industry Standard and pix in Times. Looks like a victory to me. Now we have to solidify these gains into something stable. I never said we were done.
And we should do exactly what you fear. Go back to your cubilce or bedroom/study/livingroom/office and write good code. Publicize it with an eye to who you want to buy it. EMS is a shit sales rep. We DO need em, little tho we might want to admit it.
And, that does not imply taking Gates or McNealy as a hero. Whay do we need one anyway? Heroworship is not needed and will not make Linux more successful.
My view of History (as stated) is indeed reductionist. The real saga is best covered in a longer format. But as for strange...what French history do you read. The same forces (bourgeoisie) that formented the revolution ELECTED Bonapart king, and he then took the crown in his own hands and declared himself emperor.
Moderators. The post I orig wrote is not really flamebait. I can see the case that it borders on Troll. Anyhoo.
Tom Dutton
Agree 100%. In his role as coder he is still invaluable. As are his foundations. But as for his role as evangilist... he needs to step down.
As with Apple. The EvangeList was disbanded. It was no longer needed. But Kawasaki is still important to the community.
Tom Dutton
This is childish at best. Especially ESR. He really is as embarassing to OSS/Linux as RMS.
Just to respond to some posts:
ESR is NOT a definitive part of what we do. WE ARE.
ESR is not a great thinker. He is a clever manipulator. Lessig is not any better.
We are better than this. RMS's viral license, ESR's mouth and BP's ego do a dis-service to the work WE put in. You do not really see LT shooting his mouth off, do ya.
These three (and Lessig) are a joke. There may have been a time when RMS/ESR/BP made some contributions. Their time is past. The revolution is over. Linux won. Linux has legitimacy. It has coders. It has capital. It has standing. It has market share.
We need to retire the revolutionaries. In the US, we transitioned from a revolutionary tribunal to a Federal Republic. In France, they did not make the transition, and the revolutionaries committed atrocities and sold it out to Bonaparte.
Where do we want to be 5 years from now?
Retire them. They did their bit. But they are mucking up the jobs we need to do now. We need leaders, not ESR's bad logic and big mouth and warmed over Rand. We need people who can build something of this momentum.
If Linux loses momentum, you can place the blame not with the coders or the code, but the fanatics who represent us poorly.
Tom Dutton
Indeed. G3 does not run x86 sw well at all. All I ment here was that the laptop case v a plain ol case v an iMac case will all, even using the same chip, require different cooling mechanisms. That new fanless iMac does get toasty, but not like the iBook's bottom!
Tom
We are changing overnight. It just depends on what you mean by "changing overnight". In 1980 nobody had a pc. nobody had cellphones. nobody had pda. nobody could order groceries or takeout over the net...hell nobody used the www. Now, just 20 years later (in terms of invention and tech - overnight) I can surf the net from a portable computer, after synching my palm v, across a wireless home network, order a pizza, and not have to pay the driver if i use visa.
Remember PONG!?! Apple ][?!? BBS?!?
Nuff said!
Tom
It is not just the heat a chip produces that makes fans necessary, though. In a laptop case, there is NO possibility of good convection/conduction of heat. It can not dissipate unaided. For example. a 400 Mhz G3 iMac does not need a fan but a 300 Mhz G3 iBook does. The sealed case will make things worse. Crusoe is not much cooler or low current draw than a G3 is. IIRC, Crusoe is =/- 2. G3 is +/- 5 with AMD adn dIntel in the 20 range even for mobile. In terms of power consumption, someone mentioned speakers and drives as a hog...but the biggest hog is the screen. We just do not have good low power LCDs.
Tom Dutton
ROTFLMAO!
We all know how popular that is. My god, man. There are more people using Amigas than saving their docs in RTF.