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eBay E-Meter Auctions Yanked
The short answer is: "No" -- as far as I can tell -- I'm not a lawyer. But this is just one more data point in the disturbing trend of the DMCA being used as an all-purpose club to remove material from the Internet.
On hearing of this, my first thought was that perhaps the devices in question are actually licensed somehow, instead of being sold outright. But I spoke to two former members and the spouse of a current member of the CoS, each of whom assured me categorically that the devices were purchased outright, with no license required to be signed. A staffer at the Lisa McPherson Trust found a catalog where anyone can buy an e-meter; the "public price" is a little higher than the price to CoS members, but there are no apparent limitations to the purchase. A credit card is all you'll need.
The device itself is just an electrical mechanism, somewhat like a fancy multimeter or oscilloscope. It's patented, but of course thousands of patented items are sold on eBay every day.
To members of the Church of Scientology, however, it's more than just an electrical device. It's used in "auditing," which apparently helps new members advance in the program. Members of the CoS who have become experienced in this process are licensed by the CoS to audit others (but, again, the purchase of the items themselves is not under license).
Some e-meters apparently have Intel Inside (an 8-bit microprocessor which performs some rudimentary functions). But ever since a 1963 raid in which the FDA took exception to the marketing of the device as medically beneficial, e-meters have carried a disclaimer which begins: "By itself, this meter does nothing. It is solely for the guide of Ministers of the Church in Confessionals and pastoral counselling."
I'd hard-pressed to think of why copyright could apply to a piece of electronic gadgetry which "does nothing." So why is eBay refusing to allow its sale?
Because DMCA is such an effective club.
Rod Keller, a Scientology critic, noticed that e-meter auctions were being taken down, and wrote eBay to ask why. The response was:
Hello,
These items are not prohibited due to their nature, but the Church of Scientology is giving us Notices of Infringement, which we are legally required to honor. These items are being ended for that reason.
Regards,
[...]
eBay Community Watch Supervisor
(Emphasis added.) That explanation, by the way, is a little facile: eBay is "legally required to honor" such notices if it wants to remain lawsuit-proof about the item. They would be well within their legal rights to leave the auctions up. More on this later.
When Mr. Keller expressed surprise at this, the next message went into a little more detail:
Hello,
There is a procedure under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act whereby someone who claims to be an owner of Intellectual property can send a notice sworn under penalty of perjury that an item is infringing. The internet provider must then remove the item. The seller of the item (not a third party) can request and fill out a counter notice. If he/she does so, the complaining party who filled out the original notice has a limited period of time to file suit, or the provider can go ahead and relist the item.
This is set up under the statute so that the interested parties will be the ones doing any litigating.
Regards,
eBay Customer Support
In response to my requests for more detail on exactly how the DMCA was being invoked by the CoS, an eBay representative promised that someone would get in touch with me. Unfortunately, I haven't heard from them by press time.
Here's what I think happened, based on the above -- feel free to follow along in the full text of the DMCA if you like.
The DMCA is an unusual regulation in that it principally protects service providers from litigation and then rigidly defines the steps they must follow to stay under its umbrella. It puts eBay in a position a little bit like Bart Simpson's, when Sideshow Bob announces:
"The following people will not be killed by me: Homer Simpson, Marge Simpson, Lisa Simpson, that little baby Simpson.... That is all."
Title II of the DMCA, otherwise known as the "Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act," is what seems to be relevant. It describes under what conditions a service provider is not liable "for infringement of copyright." My guess is that eBay is looking at section 202(c): "Information Residing On Systems Or Networks At Direction Of Users." The system is ebay.com; the users are the sellers; presumably the information is, in this case, the item being auctioned. Or the text and graphics used to describe the auction? I'm not sure.
Section 202(c)(1)(C) indicates that eBay will not be subject to liability as long as it, "upon notification of claimed infringement as described in paragraph (3), responds expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity."
Paragraph (3) describes the elements which must be present in a notification, including: "A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed."
Based on eBay's statements, the Church of Scientology has sworn under penalty of perjury that it has an "exclusive right" to copyright on the material that was posted in the auction.
To me, that seems obviously wrong. An e-meter is an electrical device, or a religious artifact, depending on how you look at it. Either way, it's sold to customers who may or may not be members of the Church. Once they've bought the items, they should be able to do with them what they wish, including reselling them to whoever they wish.
But to enjoy the protections of the DMCA, service providers must remove any material as soon as they're told it infringes on copyright. Once material has been challenged, the service provider must act "expeditiously" to remove it. Only when the material is gone can the accused user make a case to defend it.
The carrot for service providers becomes a stick for users.
Meanwhile, I'd like to see the statement that the Church of Scientology made, under penalty of perjury, that an auction of an e-meter infringes on their copyright in some way. Any spokespeople for the CoS reading this are welcome to contact me to discuss it.
But, as Declan McCullagh wrote in an unrelated DMCA story yesterday, we are moving toward a two-tier copyright system on the internet -- at least in this country. If you don't host your own content, the DMCA's censor-first, ask-questions-later mandate effectively strips you of your rights.
You obviously know nothing about the COS. It is plain evil. Do a search on google or whatever and look into it. It will scare the shit out of you. It is not a religion but a cult. I fear that Slashdot will hear from the "church" based on certain comments that have been or will be posted. If someone posts certain material here the servers will be seized and there will be no news for nerds. I highly advise Slashdot not to post anything related to this "church." It is not worth it!!!
Hey, perhaps it's even simpler than that. Any /good/ hacker can get personal information off ebay about its members. Perhaps someone simply got the info, and threatened to release it if they didn't stop letting the e-meters be auctioned.
-Anony mouse
P.S. Mr Hubbard, sir, one could make your emeter with a PIC microcontroller networked to the internet so the main scientology center can see real time auditing! Consolidate all your auditor auditors, and save money! LOTS of money! I mean, huge, stinking WADS of money! Each PIC-E-METER would only be $100 to manufacture. Think of the cash you'll generate!
The article linked to contains referenced quotes where L Ron advocates concentration camps or quiet disposal for gays, and indeed a wide range of other people as well (like those who criticise scientology) whenever Scientology assumes its rightful place... I think you could accurately call this extremist.
Maybe something can be done about the equally crazy patents that have been accepted by the USPTO though. Citizens can nominate members of the US Patent Office Advisory committee but --- TODAY April 28th is THE LAST DAY!!!! Take a look at the LinuxToday article and its links.
By the way, someone, probably the clown, has been imitating my posts on Slashdot recently. I hope you have been able to tell these are attempts to trick you, especially the ones that contained links to sites irrelevant to my cause of warning you of the clown's dangers. Also, some readers commented that I should not post AC, but register and post under that name. However, I am not willing to put myself at such great risk from the clown because that would improve his ability to track me.
I think the main reason people want to buy an E-meter on E-Bay is for use as a kitsch ornament, and I think it is this trivialisation of their religion that the Scientologists are worried about. I would make similar requests if E-Bay were to start selling some of those faked pictures of me on their website - I, the Loch Ness Monster, deserve better than to be humiliated by all those inaccurate hoax pictures of me. But I digress. This whole situation seems very confusing, and I think that the DMCA (combined with the inherent problems of patent law) has provided a means by which vendors can be legally obliged to removed items from sale, even when there is no common sense reason for them to do so.
I am NOT a troll, I'm the Loch Ness Monster.
If you don't host your own content, the DMCA's censor-first, ask-questions-later mandate effectively strips you of your rights.
/. itself could be held liable for publishing comments in a JonKatz book?
Seeing as how comments can be copyrighted by indivual posters, does this mean that
Ok guys, this is the final post. No more posting allowed in this story. Please watch the ./ frontpage for new stories to appear. In the meantime you may pour hot grits down your pants.
Thank you.
Today, Amazon.com declared itself a religion. "I don't know why we were using that stupid trademark and copyright infringement stuff" stated Jeff Bozos. "We are a religion now, and no one else can use our ideas. Selling books on the web is our holy sacrament, and only we can do this." Also announced was a name change: affiliates are now called "church outreach."
Unfortunately, this is relatively recent Christian policy. The Holy Lie was a standard part of the Christian conversion toolkit for hundreds of years. The rational, if I recall, was that it was better for a member of the Church to risk a small sin by telling a lie than to allow a 'pagan' (scare quotes intentional) to fall into eternal damnation, a wonderfully recursive sort of self-interest. In the aspect you're discussing, Scientology bears an uncomfortable similarity to old time religion.
A little late to be posting, but...
Looking at the search see I see older auctions of e-meters that are not pulled. It looks like the e-meter that was pulled (there only seems to be one) does not work.
All e-meters that are used by the Church are inspected and repaired/recalibrated every two years and are re-certified for use. If the e-meter does not work they probably don't want it staying on the market.
If I were them, I would have simply bought it.
To me I see no difference between Scientologists and Satanists. They are both whacked out extremists that will do anything to make someone beleive whatever garbage they themselves have been brainwashed by.
Yeah, yeah, freedom of religion.. To me the "E-Meter" is nothing more then a Ouji Board.
Fuck Ajit Pai
I just see those two at each end of the spectrum. I am a Christian myself. It's like the far extreme christian right or the far extreme liberal left, both do nothing but harm and raise alot of hoopla. (I myself am a democrat but have to look at Jesse Jackson as an imbicle at times).
I guess what I am trying to say is that on certain political/religous views you have to give a little and take a little and I certainly find it either silly or unproductive to be or listen to someone who is either all the way at point A or all the way at point B.
Fuck Ajit Pai
Want to see something funny on eBay? Do a search for "Elian". Now, I can understand eBay yanking the couple of entries for Elian himself. But what I don't quite understand is the removal of all the ones mentioning Clinton, Reno, etc also. Last night I did find one cute thing, someone has pasted Clinton/Reno's head onto some of the famous pictures and put them into a button. Clinton with the gun pointed at the kid, and Reno carrying him into the van. Those seem like just cute political pins. Now why would eBay be in such a rush to kill those auctions?
I had occaision to visit their headquarters in Clerwater around '85 because my girlfriend was working with (and for) a Scientologist, and all I can say is: Be afraid, be very afraid.....
The revolution will NOT be televised.
Last I checked, the CoS jealously guards its E-meters (and anything else that might allow any form of insight into them to an outsider, for that matter). I'll leave the question as to why they might do that up to you; I have my own ideas (hint: they reflect very poorly on the CoS).
But either way, since the CoS is normally so secretive about these things, it's probably relatively safe to assume that any E-meters which found their way to Ebay were stolen (or at least could have been considered stolen by the CoS). It's not IP theft by any means, but if the CoS says they're stolen, then Ebay does have to stop the auctions, just as if the item in question had been a stolen car.
By the way, any word on when the patents on these things expire? I can't wait to see some non-Scientologist (ex-Scientologist, perhaps?) start building them and selling them; then not even the CoS could pull something like this.
These are the same mofos who shut down Anon.Penet.Fi. Godless freaks!
Isn't that sort of like General Motors saying not only can you not sell something you made by calling it a Chevrolet, but, if you own a real Chevy, you can't stick that out on your used car lot either. Come to think of it, they'd probably like a law that says you can only trade in your old GM vehicle on a new one. But at least they aren't worried that someone will reverse engineer a Caprice and discover that it's not really an automobile (Okay, look, the Vega was a long time ago, okay?).
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Good Lord, we cant have these things out in the general public! Someone might take one apart and find out that its only a galvanic resistance tester, and not some Tool of God
-=Bob
And please, let's not forget:
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
Sadly, the E-meters aren't theirs. They out-and-out sold them to people. No NDA, no contracts, no nothing. In fact, you can, ATM, still buy one from them, at a really marked up price. I'm assuming the ones on eBay are simply undercutting their profit.
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
I rate this: -0.5 Unbelievable Troll.
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
A guy called Zenon Panoussis made copies of the CoS "bible", and delivered it to a lot of swedish authorities. Any document sent to a swedish authority is public. Thus, anyone could, by reffering to the principle of publicity, read a copy of the CoS bible in any of the offices to which he sent copies.
After this, all kinds of weird things happened to Zenon. Among many other things, his apartment was apparently being monitored 24 hours a day. And he was not just being paranoid.
If you're interested, there is a rather complete story here, but it does not cover the latest developments when the swedish government made a decision to, in this particular case, disregard the principle of publicity and make the Cos "bible" secret without cause. Strictly in conflict with the swedish constitution.
Any guesses as to how long it will take for Co$ to sue Slashdot and everyone who posted a remotely negative message about them? (Or, worse, that they send Scientologists to flood the site with pro-Co$ messages?) You thought hot grits were bad... -j
I think the difference is that Christianity (being a real religion, whether you agree with its tenets or not) has to take anybody, but Scientology (a religion concocted on a bet) would rather have rich loopy movie stars. Apparently it's pretty easy to fool them all of the time :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
If Jon Katz is the shining example of their social coverage, I really would hate to see their choice of an attorney.
Not to start a religeous war, but --- hey, wait a minute. Oh what the fuck, let's have a religeous war! I mean, a really good old fashioned drag-out no-holds-barred religeous war. I think we should invite some Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and Hindus into into the mix too, just for giggles. Then we'll all just start insulting each other religeons. It'll be great! Yeah, we'll call it Crusades II and put it on Pay Per View.
I think all mysticism is bullshit. All of it. Every last bit. 75 million-year-old aliens possessing humans, natural spirits living in trees, people getting up and walking around after being murdered by Romans, all of it. So, when I look at a religeon, I think to myself, "What do you have left here, when you strip away the mystic bullshit?"
Scientology sucks. Satanism sucks. (I won't mention my opinion of other religeons, but it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate.) The difference is that if I ignore Satanist mysticism, the stuff that is left doesn't look too bad. There's at least some sense of ethics and fairness. When I do the same with Scientology, it's still shit. Scientology is the only "religeon" I've ever heard of that actually has absolutely no salvage value whatsoever.
So, IMHO, by equating the two, you have just insulted Satanists. Now, actually, that is a good thing in our Crusades II Pay Per View special. That means you score a point and Satanism loses a point. You're ahead! Well done, Nick! But watch your back. I think the Buddhist Extremists might be about to try something against you.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
It seems to me the DMCA should *only* apply to the US of A territory.
Groups like the World Trade Organization are working hard to make sure that all the immoral, unjust and just plain stupid laws of the USA are enforceable around the world. Conversely, they are working to make sure that all of the immoral, unjust and stupid laws of the rest of the world are enforceable in the USA, too. Their vision is a unified world government, where they can exert their power in broad strokes without fear of local disturbances.
While I do think there is some merit in a "single nation of humanity", I think the harm would outweigh the benefits.
At the risk of sounding like Katz, we're fighting a war here. On our side (if you're reading this, you're almost certainly on the same side I'm on) we have consumers, individuals, artists, programmers, writers, poets, musicians -- in other words, people. We're small, and singly we're weak, but we have the advantages of creativity and cleverness, adaptability, flexibility and speed. We also have greater numbers, although most people are asleep. On the other side we have the multinational corporate giants. They're fucking huge. But they're slow and stupid, rigid, and static.
In this war, the terrain is the set of legal jurisdictions in which we (collectively) live. It's like a jungle, or a badlands, full of uneven terrain, obstacles and brush. People like us can dodge through it and evade the giants. The corporate behemoths get stuck in the sinkholes.
But the behemoths can flatten the terrain, slowly. They have enough power (money) to change laws in their favor. Wherever they stomp, the land becomes slightly more level, and the vegetation is ground into pulp. Soon, we'll have nowhere to hide, and the tanks will roll over us and crush us.
Question everything. Never take anything at face value. The world is full of lies. Don't believe what the media tell you. Don't believe what slashdot tells you. Don't believe what I tell you. Make up your own mind, and do what is right.
So they're almost like Linux users then?
Didn't we just have an article about liable follies in Englend. The US isn't the only one with plain dumb laws. Face it, pretty much every country has some fucked up laws on the books.
The result isn't favorable to scientology, though. It was not my intention to even consider changing my opinion about scientology; Microsoft was the target of my ponderings.
The question I used to evaluate whether the organization (Microsoft/CoS) is evil was:
"Is the fact that some people are made happy by the operation of the organisation merely an accidental side effect, or is it the result of the good intentions of the people behind the organization ?"
On the surface, Microsoft looks like a money-making machine. On the other hand, Bill Gates says that he wants to make computing easier for everyone (while making a bucketload of money in the process). I believe he sincerely means this. The fact that he may not have been doing a very good job at it is irrelevant, and so is also the fact that he has obviously lost this focus while trying to defend his enterprise from the legal assault. By definition, Bill Gates - and Microsoft - isn't [completely] evil.
Scientology is also a money-making organization. As a religion, it is free of many of the constraints holding Microsoft back. Based on what I've read on the procedures and documents of the religion, I see no benevolent desire to make people happy. Some people have be made happy to keep the money flowing in, so that the religion can go on.
The fact that some people are made happy is irrelevant. What matters is that this is not the goal of scientology; the goal is to make money for their leaders.
Thus, if a single scientogist is happy and not evil doesn't mean that scientology cannot be evil, and your testimony, dear Anonymous Scientologist, is irrelevant. Based on other evidence, I still consider scientology evil.
Another thing is the stance of /. towards. A lot of things are critized and bashed on /., but very few of them can be considered truly, completely evil. Microsoft certainly isn't - there have been some benefits from its existence to the society as a whole (that is, other people than their shareholders and employees). Neither are patents evil, they are just being misapplied.
In this article, two issues are brought forward that are evil: DMCA and scientology. I am not going to start explaining why they are thoroughly evil; the reasons for this have been explained more articulately and "insightfully" than I have talent for by other posters.
I was just wondering what might happen if /. started more frequently and openly critisizing scientology. Would they dare to start harassing a public forum like this ? Negative publicity hasn't stopped them before, though..
CoS is for rich people to buy their way into heaven. The rhetoric is full of hypocrisy and general bullshit. I have enough problems with the holes in general church rhetoric, then to see people follow a newer religion that has policies directly contrary to whats in the bible... well its sickening. No I'm not a bible belter (yes I live in the bible belt). Hell, I don't even go to church. I interpret the bible how I interpret it, but CoS dictates what it should be for their members own ends, they do not interpret it. Walk your own path, do not walk theirs and do not let them tell you that their path is your path. Same goes for every religion.
Common Sense. Thats all it takes.
-=chiphead
-=-=-=-
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
This is the same as if O'Reilly had sent a demand to EBay to quit selling all those old copies of Programming Perl since they owned the copyright.
Actually, it's not, as O'Reilly could conceivably do this. They own the IP. Demanding that E-bay stop selling books which contain their IP is no different, in principle, from MS demanding that Ebay stop selling CDs which contain their IP. Have you read the O'Reilly books cover to cover, every word? Can you guarantee, right now (no fair checking) that the O'Reilly books (or other books) don't contain weasel-phrases like "This content is licensed and not sold"?
DMCA means that checking a book out of the library, or selling a book, or reading someone else's book could become illegal. DMCA grants content-creators TOTAL control over their products. Get the out-of-date concept of "fair use" out of your head. Fair use is what the author says it is.
That would stand to reason, and would be expected. What I was concerned with is my connection suddenly being cut without any warning, simply because my ISP got notice of my actions by someone else.
In addition, I have trouble believing that your DSL agreement says that the line is yours and you are free to do with it anything you want. I don't think I've ever seen a service agreement of any kind that doesn't include clauses that 1) stipulate that you will not use the service in any of a whole list of inappropriate fashions, and 2) allow the provider to immediately disconnect the service if you violate any part of the agreement. Also, most residential agreements specifically prohibit running servers, although that clause is rarely enforced.
My service provider is August.Net, LLC (http://www.august.net), and their AUP says, in part:
You agree not to make any Public Contribution which violates or infringes the rights of any other person...
This, according to my lawyer, means that if a court finds you are violating the rights of someone else, you are liable under this section and can have your access terminated. However, if your use is found to be legal, then your connection can't be axed.
Also, about the "no residential servers" limit... Unlike most ISPs who'd like to see the Internet turned into one-way style (ala TV, but that's another posting), my ISP has no restrictions on servers and so forth. In fact, they actively encourage technical users to run their own e-mail and so forth to cut down their costs for servers. See this snippet:
You may access OnLine Services through Remote Access Software supplied by You. You may also use third party software that meets the compatibility requirements from time to time published by Service Provider.
Thanks for the info, though, you make some valid points.
--------------------
I think a slightly larger issue here that we dont seem to be looking at is the fact that the CoS said it was a violation in the first place. I have a friend that was caught up in the CoS thing for a while. They wouldn't let his leave. They repeatedly went to his' house and forced themselves in. They are a profit seeking group trying to hide under the US religion/tax laws. (Which should be abolished anyway.)
I call for everyone to email contact@ebay.com and let them know that what is going on is wrong, and that those auctions should happen.
The DMCA clearly doesn't apply here.
Joseph Nicholas Yarbrough
Stupid people do stupid things... Smart people outsmart each other... --System of a Down
Paragraph (3) describes the elements which must be present in a notification, including: "A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed."
Based on eBay's statements, the Church of Scientology has sworn under penalty of perjury that it has an "exclusive right" to copyright on the material that was posted in the auction.
Read a little more closely, it says that 'under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed'
It does not say that they are swearing the exclusive right is valid, only that they have the legal right to act on behalf of the company and notify you of the infringement. That is a pretty noticeable difference.
/*---------------------------*/
Man? What is man?
But a collection of chemicals with delusions of granduer.
/*---------------------------*/
Man? What is man?
But a collection of chemicals with delusions of granduer.
Not so fast, slick.
You have to be legally able to speak for the company that is claiming an infringement, or you get in trouble yourself.
/*---------------------------*/
Man? What is man?
But a collection of chemicals with delusions of granduer.
/*---------------------------*/
Man? What is man?
But a collection of chemicals with delusions of granduer.
You've apparently misinterpreted something here. That fragment of the DMCA says you're looking at perjury charges if you falsely assert that you represent the owner of the intellectual property. It says nothing about consequences for being wrong about the possible infringement.
I think that's a good thing: imagine the case where you are a copyright holder and send notice as described above, the service provider fails to remove the allegedly infringing material, and you are forced to sue. Suppose you lose the suit due to a loophole or a technicality or a slightly-broader-than-expected interpretation of Fair Use on the part of the court. Should you then be guilty of perjury? Of course not.Oh, and I am not a lawyer. Duh.
The "./ IANAL crowd" is the most important group to listen to because they represent a general morality, not a legal interpertation.
The law is only right when the majority supports it, and the lawyers and music industry are far from a majority.
Very true. I don't ever say "This is what is legal," I say "This is what I belive is right."
I wish I could have trust in our legal system to make the former approach the latter with time (if what I think is right is the opinion of many, of course.)
It is my opinion that the normal people hold the most important position in any such system, I also think that, in general, we tend to do a crappy job. (this last bit is my opinion, I am not trying to convince anyone of that).
One quid is about $0.64 US.
.64 ritish Pound.
It is the other way around, I believe.
$1US is
DISCLAIMER: IAAL. What follows does not constitute legal advice, etc etc, and is an oversimplication of the issues anyway. YMMV.
One of the fundamental elements of copyright is the "first sale doctrine," which says once you've bought a copy, that copy is yours. If I buy a book, I can loan that book to hundreds of people and that's okay. In short, as long as I don't make copies, I can't be touched by copyright law.
And besides, the patent expired on the damn thing anyway. The courts have been historically reluctant to grant any kind of IP protection that might be construed as extending patent.
In short, if you buy an e-thingy from CoS, you can do with it what you want. (*)
Legally-unfounded bullying is the CoS's standard operational procedure, and eBay's caving in to it. Seriously, eBay, get some balls! (Or at least some comptetent lawyers.)
(*) That's why you don't "buy" software -- you buy a license to use it. And if the sale of the e-thingy was tied to terms and conditions, then there may be a contract dispute, but definitely nothing involving copyright.
whuppy enjoys smelling like diesel fuel
Could it be the revenge of the E-meter?
(I'd be more inclined to paranoia, of course, if it weren't for the fact that eBay being down is hardly a rare event...)
One quid is about $0.64 US.
For more information, click here.
Yup, that's it. No wonder I ran out of money so fast in England. :)
For more information, click here.
positive re-enforcement is one of the mainstays of behavioral conditioning (brainwashing for the laymen). If the electrical charge does produce a feeling of wellbeing while you are participating in the practice of belief it is much the same as giving a dog a treat whenever it performs a trick correctly.
We humans are just as conditionable as any other creature. After all the militaries of the world are conditioned to lay down their lives for the idologies preached to them since their youth (ours included).
Last comment, if your church does not restrict your rights to information or association than why post anonymously?
-- Greg
Slashdot, would a spell-checker for posting be too much to ask? It's not rocket science!
The Satanic bible is warmed over Ayn Rand with a bit of a creepy edge. If you've read Ayn Rand, you can feel safe skipping LaVey.
-Dave Turner.
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
We try to combine the work of lawyers and techies looking at the problems from different angles.
There's no submissions queue yet, but we're working to figure out how to extend the model to other depredations of the public good (of which we're lately seeing too many in the IP arena).
Come join us! http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/
-- Openlaw: Fighting for fair use and the public domain
It is worth reading. I read it a number of years ago alongside several other religious works. The Satanic bible is nothing like it is portrayed by the Christian right. It is a well thought out book that makes a number of valid points and is alot less extremist than most other religious works. It should at least be read so that you can filter the information that the media feeds you instead of just judging it based on its title.
"A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed."
It seems clear to me that "under penalty of perjury" only applies to the second half of the sentence. This seems very weak to me.
Female Prison Rape in NY
So, what's the difference between that and what Scientology is doing? I'll bet if you really study the Scientology lawyers lawyertalk, you'll find reasoning along the lines of what the MPAA has been saying about their DVDs.
Or, it could be the DMCA clause that says, "As long as you are rich and evil, you can do whatever you want." Otherwise known as the insanity clause... (please note, the previous statement was not meant for the sarcasm impaired).
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Hmm, don't love testers work on the same principal?
So, if I get a high score, I'm a hot 'fire-cracker' and millions of dead alien souls are clinging to my body? (If you have read about the joke that the CoS is, you would know what I'm talking about.) You then pay them hundreds and thousands of dollars (Sometimes Tens and Hundreds of thousands) to get the dead alien souls 'purged' from your body. But wait! That would make me a 'cold fish'!
Decisions... Decisions...
Eternal Salvation with the Alien Lord, or no sex life....
I think it's obvious that the dead alien sould (Thetans) must act like a spiritual Viagra =)
tasty and delicious
>Now, the Church clearly doesn't have a legal leg to stand on to prevent sales (and if they sell it
>anyway, why would they, I mean, the resale market through E-bay won't really effect their bottom
>line to the extent legal fees will), but they can probably protect certain terms.
I expect the CoS's legal fees are nil; all their lawyers would be scientologists (it's a natural fit, after all, you can apply your skills of harassment and irritating bafflegab in two directions at once!).
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
This already took place five years ago on Usenet.
It was like WWI trench warfare. Lawyers, fake and real, cancelbots, floodbots, Dave the Resurrector, OT VII and VIII, sporgery and sockpuppets...
Ask Dennis McClain-Furmanski about it sometime.
k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
Hail Xemu!
Can you sum it up in a word? *No.* In a noise? *Whuuuurghhhhh!*
It's more than that. If anyone can win a ridiculous case like this, it's Scientology--and that would cause a terrible precedent. Then anyone who wants to sue over something this stupid will get their day in court, and have a good shot at winning.
If I were ebay, I'd wait for someone else to bring up the issue, take it to court, and get a solid win that could bolster their defense in future cases. And I'm sure their lawyers were thinking the same thing.
no
It occurs to me that CoS is really just a big ongoing science fiction MUD that will eventually incorporate XENU. Perhaps we could help increase CoS enjoyment by screwing the flying saucer attachment on a laser pointer and shining it in the window during a meeting,then wearing a "Bob" mask,enter the meeting declaring"I,J.R.Bob Dobbs have bargained with Xenu and have been subcontracted to save your asses from the Xists.From now on You will funnel all donations to The Subgenius Foundation". Then we'd all have donuts and i could show them my L.Ron Hubbard whoopee cushon.I bet Lisa Marie Presley-Jackson would get moist if i kept the Bob mask on and I allways wanted to do her.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Relax buddy and just say Bobs name over and over
till you remember your own.SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!SCIENTOLOGISTS HAVE MONEY AND MUST BE EXPLOITED.PRAISE BOB!
]
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Is it worth reading? The stuff on the website looks interesting, but you never can tell with books like this...
:)
Yeah, I'd say so. You probably won't agree with all of it (I certainly don't), but you'll probably also read certain paragraphs and thing "Hey, that's exactly right!". And hey, at worst you're out a few bucks, you can give it to a friend for chrismas if you don't like it.
OMIGOD, Subgenius is a JOKE religion. It's FAKE. Either you are being facetious or are somekinda dense.
Oh, think so? You Pink! You'll be begging for a chance at salvation when the Xists come! You just wish you had Yeti blood.
I think the CoS' legal grounds might be a lot closer to a non-disclosure agreement (or NDA). I don't know for sure whether or not an e-meter has such a condition on its sale, but lots of specialized devices do, usually prototype units and the like.
Intel inside? Do you think it runs Linux?
DMCA is the US implementation of an international treaty it's signatory to. It sure ain't the only signatory. If your country signed, you can expect similar laws.
I know it's tempting to blame the US for everything, but the rest of the world is not powerless. There are money and technology in Europe, and powerful people with interests to protect.
I'd chalk this one up to an alliance of intellectual property interests from many nations, succeeding for the moment in bamboozling these nations' people and governments.
There's a copy sitting on the coffee table...
Is it worth reading? The stuff on the website looks interesting, but you never can tell with books like this...
Remember, if you set your starting bid low enough, it's probably only going to cost you a few cents for the listing.
-Legion
I prefer www.scientology.COM
It's a Dot-Com enterprise, and rightfully so!
However, I don't dismiss all their ideologies and theories (mainly because I don't even know 5% of them), but I certainly disagree on their methods of repressing, extorting and misleading their members. They are also too hypocritical and intolerant to the rest of the world. They become what they hate, it's the fastest and hardest way to learn properly.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Replying to my own article! :)
Here's a page detailing some of the many sites closed down by the CoS:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ Secrets/Fishman/ClamBed.html
Pete C
Alison
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein
Maybe next they'll go after anti-CoS websites?
:-b
Hey - whaddya mean next!!
Pete C
Alison
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein
In the middle ages, dissention of the church could carry heavy penalties and undue torture. In american society, this is no longer the norm with most organized religions.
Scientology is the exception here. They still regularly make threats of legal and physical action against those who speak out against Scientology.
Regardless of my position on Scientology, I would take careful consideration in speaking out against them in a public forum (aside from /.) based on thier history.
In case it isnt evident, the point I am making is that many people would rather put up with some harrassment than draw negative attention to themselves from this cult.
I can punch and slander the catholic church, christians, and most other organized religions with near impunity. Scientologists are another beast entirely.
People threatening to leave the church after attaining a level of knowledge I call "Aliens built my society." are threatened with physical violence. Anyone within the church who makes public any religious doctrine will be pursued both legally and personally. As I recall, at least one such incident ended in the murder of the dissenter.
Registered Anonymous Poster :p
All that is certain is that I am glad I am not American and that I live in a country without such an incredible legal system that can create these farces.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Brilliant idea! Well, through www.xenu.net you should be able to get a copy.. there's a page telling you how to get it (actually it's telling how to NOT get it because of "legal" reasons.. :).. it surfaces here and there - like the decss source they can never find and delete them all.
-- jaf
If you want to know about CoS, check out this link as well: www.xenu.net
-- jaf
BTW, this isn't intended to be anti-catholic but rather to point out that paying for spiritual comfort doesn't really have anything to do with the item being hocked. The analogy could be extended to pretty well any religion on earth, some of them were just more successful than others.
Perhaps if the CoS apologises for their wrong-doings in 500 years ...
:wq
From the article it sounds like the seller is the only person who can bring action against CoS. Is this the case with perjury in the US?
If this is true then they may well be doing this to assess risk/reward - confirm their assumption that nobody is going to take the CoS to court over an isolated injuction[1] (isolated because all the other 3rd parties can't get involved).
Unless of course, someone started auctioning E-Meters on eBay with the express purpose of being able to bring a suit againt the CoS.: )
<hint><hint>
(I'm not in America, so it can't be me)
It's probably better for you guys in the long run if someone quickly stomped on them heavily.
[1] You know what I mean - an illicit infringment notice that when coupled with the ambiguity of the DMCA is effectively an injuction.
The cos has a history of sueing anybody who says anything or does anything that can mildly interpetted as having a negative inpact on them. They don't care if they win or lose, there just going to cost you as much money as possible. That way people(or corporations) find its just easy to retract what ever offended the cos, then to defend it.
I have a friend who worked as a DJ on a major radio station. He said "I believe the church of scientology is for the weak minded. But thats just my opinion." The cos filed several different lawsuits against the radio station, scared the radio station so bad they fired my friend and publicly apologized for the comment.
There are many incidents where the cos has sued for somebody stating an opinion agains them.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Actually they settle with the IRS and pay taxes under certian guidline applicable only to them, so they are not as tax exempt as a "real" church.
LRH did start it as a bet with some other authors.
Between the CoS and people who let children die because it's Gods will, IU am really starting to question the freedom of religion in this country. By that I mean it needs some definition of what contitute a religion.
Yes I am aware of the implications of that staement, state approved religions is almost always a bad thing.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
To achieve the next 'level' in there 'church' you need to PAY for the information. These lowlifes will not rest until they bleed you dry, then make you work for the 'church' in order to aquire more information.
I think all information a Church has/preachs should be public, and if it's not, it should be held to corporate guide lines.
It is coc doctrine to treat members who are in the "public eye" differently then other members.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Small correction here: CoS is not forbidden in Germany, it has just been denied the status of a religious organization.
Wow, the Satanic Bible is as whacked out as Ayn Rand!? Who'd've thunk it.
Go ahead, Rand lovers, flame away. If you've actually been able to plow through Fountainhead I guess you've earned the right to call me names. Does anyone know, was she self-published? If not, whoever edited her must have followed up that job with a stint writing for a high school yearbook. Even if you agree with her "ideas" you've got to admit, the woman couldn't write her way out of a paper bag.
Hello, I must be going. I'm here to say I cannot stay, I must be going.
"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly." - L. Ron Hubbard, A Manual on the Dissemination of Material, 1955
For what it's worth, AC, I don't think that Scientologists are evil.
The Church of Scientology, on the other hand, is a money-making organization posing as a legitimate religion. It uses underhanded, immoral, and illegal tactics to acheive its goals. It is evil.
While I don't believe that LRH's methods work or that his writings were true, I support the right of anyone to believe them and follow them as long as they stay within the law.
Just my $0.02.
...I don't see how it's safe to assume that the e-meters were stolen.
Did you hear about the psychiatrist that got arrested?
http://www.xenutv.com/us/ucb.ram
Upright Citizens Brigade's "Psychotonomy" skit.
Doesn't involve the e-meter (sadly), but it's still a hoot.
Scientology's just messed up. Any organization that insists on being that secretive had better leave me the hell alone.
I'm Catholic, and haven't ever been charged to receive communion. Charging for a Sacrament would be contrary to Church Canon Law, and Christian Theology in general since that would be Usury.
You've got to be kidding. Are you really that stupid?
I am continuously amazed at how many dumb, gullible people there are in the world. Sigh.
Sorry, instead of Usury, I should have said Simony. Anyway, simony has happened many times in the history of the Church, but it has ALWAYS been contrary to Church theology, as it is specifically condemned in the New Testament.
The obvious reason why the Church (Ha!) of Bad-Science-Fiction-Writer doesn't want e-meters on ebay is so people who aren't clinically gullible don't buy them and take them apart to debunk what a crock of shit the scienbollockolgists are ripping people off with. Admittedly,when people do debunk the scienarseholes they get sued. L.Ron was so bad at SF he decided the real money was in setting up his own fake religion. Don't get screwed by skientologists!
"Information wants to be paid"
Why does the "Cult of Scientology"(tm;not) want to sue over something that even they obviously don't have a problem doing themselves? Could it be the extra $$$ from each sale? The names and addresses collected from credit card statements?
Increasing fear and another note in the news are all I can think of. Except for /., who's picked up this story? How many times a month do we read about this Hollywood cult with lawyers?
The more I hear of Scientology, the more I think the Germans have it right when they banned this group -- and that just might be what Scientology Inc. is trying to do.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Scientology is fundamentally different from Christianity because it believes it is OK to lie to people when you're trying to convert them.
[ObRant]
Hey, I can quote a few religous books with the best of them. Do you want me to start quoting from the "bad" parts of the Bible?
Visit one of the religion recovery groups on usenet and try and make that statement again without knowing you'd be lying. Yeah, yeah...the Christian whackos aren't "real Christians", or I didn't understand what's printed in the dozen or so Bibles I've seen...how convincing.Does this mean that the Scientologists get off scott-free? Nope, they're a cult, and trying to stay around long enough to be taken seriously and have the lawyers to make it stick...from Cult to religion; it happens all the time.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
The bible contains so many vaguities and contradictions that it can really be shown to be saying anything. In practice however, the "better" side is gernally taken. Scientology on the other hand clearly demonstrates a really distrubing agenda. You can be arrogant and claim that Christians are brainwashed, but a brainwashed Christian will not try and destroy your life in every way possible for proclaiming that in the same manner Scientology promotes. (at least Today that is).
Arrogance isn't necessary and wasn't implied. When I'm arrogant, I'll be glad to claim it! ;-)'
I agree the run-of-the-mill religous person is basically good, and that Christians are no exception. The contradictions in the Bible have been used to both abolish and support slavery, for example. The path that is typically taken is one where the locals find in the Bible what they want to find, and if necessary cherry-pick examples from it. In most cases, they don't even take a look, and work on social norms of what others think might be in the book.
My original evidence: Read the religous recovery newsgroups. The vast majority of people posting messages suffer from the abuses of _Chrsitians_, not Scientologists. This includes lies given to support conversion to specific, well established, sects. Other religious groups including former Scientologists are represented, but not nearly in the volume of Christian groups. I was stunned to learn what these poor people have gone through.
Does this mean that all Christians are bad? Nope, only a few...but they are some nasty SOBs. Where do you think Hubbard & company learned these tricks from?
If you read what has happened to others, and still think I'm arrogant, I'll take that as a complement.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
"The seller of the item (not a third party) can request and fill out a counter notice. If he/she does so, the complaining party who filled out the original notice has a limited period of time to file suit, or the provider can go ahead and relist the item."
What is the limited period of time? Is it days weeks or months? If the person sends the counternotice, then the CoS doesn't file suit then the seller seems to have some standing to force ebay to relist the item.
Pain in the ass, but the best thing to do about a rediculous law is to find the rediculous ways to use it. Then everyone will know how bad it is.
Co$ often relies on legal bullying against individuals, governments and the media. Expect slashdot to get an injunction against this message thread pretty soon.
Visit www.xenu.net
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
The case was the CoS ''Bible which was exhibited at office since it was a proof in an ongoing trial.
Before they managed to withdraw that copy with no legal grounds the Company had it's members reading the bible non-stop during office hours to keep others from getting to it.
A good idea might be to print your version of the bible snatched from the net and put it up on Ebay, if you could get the CoS members to always be the highest bidder to keep the document from reaching the public you could get a small fortune.
Any mirrors active?
Secondary Patent Issued March 31, 1984...
Expires March 31, 2001...
The whole thing's public domain in less than a year! Anyone for flooding the market with workalikes?
Let's get those folks at crackerjack on the line!
"Free EP Meter inside!"
Be the first kid on your block to read Electropychic Auras!
Fool Your Friends! Loads of Fun!!!
Everything's been downhill since the TRS-80
One time I was in New Zealand, walking down the street killing some time, when I saw a large sandwichboard for "FREE IQ TESTS - administered by a professional". Despite my belief that IQ tests are not really true measures of intelligence, it piqued my curiousity and I decided to "take the test". After going into this commercial building, I was given the most pathetic excuse for a IQ test ever, and then 'lectured' about the benefits of conversion to Scientology for about 30 minutes, asking me personal questions and trying to be my buddy. After trying to politely leave halfway through their spiel, they all lined up in front of me and wouldn't let me leave, all the while telling me all sorts of the usual mumbo-jumbo, trying to get me to sit back down. I had had enough. I pushed past them in disgust and threw the books they tried to force down my throat into a garbage bin outside. One strange thing I noticed however, out of about 15 scientologists that seemed to be at this revival meeting, about 3 of them were thalidomide victims. Does scientology specifically target the feeble?
"There is a procedure under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act whereby someone who claims to be an owner of Intellectual property can send a notice sworn under penalty of perjury that an item is infringing."
If you're willing to open yourself up to charges of perjury, feel free. If you're not willing to open yourself up to perjury, then EBay has no reason to remove the material you object to.
The only religion I can think of which doesn't do these things you accuse scientology of doing which I can think of offhand is Bhuddism. And some other eastern ones but I would call those more philosophies than religions.
Face it: religion is brainwashing. Christianity exists to advance power structures of the ppl who feed it to you. Jesus would not believe in christianity if he were alive to see it, any more than he would endorse scientology.
In fact, I would say from your examples that the lying is worse on the christian side. Every day of my life I see christians attacking whatever is non-christian or does not agree with their beliefs just because they don't like it. But they pretend to "love their enemies" and "turn the other cheek". And throughout history men of the cloth have grown fat out of the coffers of their congregations. And I see it go on today. At least hubbard admits that money is his objective.
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
It appears that the CoS is getting away with this because they can, not because they are right. As others have pointed out, they are a fearsome legal opponent.
As one of those provincial Yanks, I take no offense at your umbrage.
"I am an American. You are a sick asshole!!"
"The US Food & Drug Administration raided Scientology on January 4, 1963 and seized hundreds of E-meters as illegal medical devices. The incident is described in Jon Atack's book, A Piece of Blue Sky, and in this essay by Stephen Barrett, M.D. Since that time, meters have been required to carry a disclaimer stating that they are purely a religious artifact." The findings of the FDA could certainly help towards any DCMA lawsuit...
You should be able to build one for about $5.00
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
Start by... jeez, VOTING, maybe?! Yes I know it doesn't make MUCH difference, as a vote all by itself, but it does make a difference to you.
And yes, write letters. And what do you think you are doing posting here? Making a fucking difference. The internet itself makes a difference, a difference that is worth protecting.
Politicians have an arrogant illusion of power, re-inforced by isolation in Washington. I personally hold the opinion that by words and actions by individual persons that power can be shifted away gradually - look at grass roots campaigns and the influence a single really good writer can have
And suddenly the powerful politician is standing where there is no power, upon which he follows the "cartoon laws of physics" and does a doubletake before falling to earth...
Violent and bloody is always a mistake - it takes the rest of a generation or two to place something
You do realize that the revolution you are looking for will end /. and most of the internet as well, don't you?
I find all kinds of things about existence interesting, I would wish the same to you
Having a bad day Scientology? Can only yell lies lies lies but never reply to http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/censorship/ Well, kiss my website once more http://www.lermanet.com See the Scientologist with no head http://www.lermanet.com/PhotoLIES.htm Re "yapping" you don't say anything, you just yap like some annoying version of "drop the chalupa" Care to post the project orders you are operating on? Meanwhile, read about your scientologists that broke in the assistant US Attorney Generals office. Oh but I know you "don't do that anymore' Are these postings the tip of a new iceberg of what you do try to accomplish? But you are right about one thing, "borg" is a better description, and Scientology's Religious cloaking device, does work about the same way as the Star Treck's Romulan Cloaking device http://www.lermanet.com/reference/77Granjurypart1. htm Arnie Lerma
Actually I am having a wonderful day despite being on-call (sysadmin in a very large co). I'm really sorry to see the stress is getting to you Arn, seriously.
I believe that people are more than the bodies you see, I believe they are more truly a life force, that they are a soul. I believe that my personal honesty is very important, as is my integrity and honor. More important than my present existence. I believe that soul is basically good (there we have a difference from Catholicism, closer to Buddhist in many ways). I believe that I am a very old soul. I believe that an individual can never be coerced into freedom. I believe that people can become more than they are now, that the crime and evil on this earth can be held back by a society but only solved by individuals. I think that there are assholes everywhere, including in Scientology and I have met a few.
Why does what I actually believe and find to be true not appear on your website, Arnie?
Having a bad day Scientology? Can only yell lies lies lies but never reply to http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/censorship/ Well, kiss my website once more http://www.lermanet.com See the Scientologist with no head http://www.lermanet.com/PhotoLIES.htm Re "yapping" you don't say anything, you just yap like some annoying version of "drop the chalupa" Care to post the project orders you are operating on? Meanwhile, read about your scientologists that broke in the assistant US Attorney Generals office. Oh but I know you "don't do that anymore' Are these postings the tip of a new iceberg of what you do try to accomplish? But you are right about one thing, "borg" is a better description, and Scientology's Religious cloaking device, does work about the same way as the Star Treck's Romulan Cloaking device http://www.lermanet.com/reference/77Granjurypart1. htm Arnie Lerma
Actually I'm having a very good day, Arn. I do not yell, and I do not lie. You are searching under rugs that do not exist, I have no project orders, I just disagree with your opinions. I very much disagree. What you express as fact I know not to be true. I really do.
I believe that people are more than the bodies you see, I believe they are more truly a life force, that they are a soul. I believe that my personal honesty is very important, as is my integrity and honor. More important than my present existence. I believe that soul is basically good (there we have a difference from Catholicism, closer to Buddhist in many ways). I believe that I am a very old soul. I believe that an individual can never be coerced into freedom. I believe that people can become more than they are now, that the crime and evil on this earth can be held back by a society but only solved by individuals. I believe the saner people can become, the better for myself, for my children and for the future of this people here on earth.
I believe many things.
Yes, you are seeing double... Sorry about the double posting, it's this damn Windows crap...
positive re-enforcement is one of the mainstays of behavioral conditioning (brainwashing for the laymen)
Do you really feel that people are that subject to influence outside themselves? I seem to recall that of the soldiers brutally brainwashed during the Korean war only perhaps one or maybe two did not renounce the statements they had been coerced to make. I think people are far far tougher than you give them credit for.
If the electrical charge does produce a feeling of wellbeing while you are participating in the practice of belief it is much the same as giving a dog a treat whenever it performs a trick correctly.
Yes but there is no such feeling. Go grab a set of cans, and connect a whatever-the-miniscule-charge is to them - probably take a battery, maybe AAA? AA?... Now do you really feel anything? Anything at all? How the hell do you prove a negative anyway?
We humans are just as conditionable as any other creature.
I disagree. See above. People have dreams and hopes that a basic animal existence doesn't allow. That's what makes them people.
After all the militaries of the world are conditioned to lay down their lives for the idologies preached to them since their youth (ours included).
Sometimes this is a good thing. Sometimes it is bad. But this is NOT brainwashing, these are ideals and concepts of honor and truth, the idea that one's society and within that one's family is worth laying down one's life for. I doubt anyone dies for an idea willingly, but a man will die for a dream. I think one of the things that is most admirable in man is that holding of a higher ideal, of the mother rescuing her child, despite that rescue causing her own death, of Galileo having seen what he had seen and observed what he observed, refusing to disown it despite the real threats brought against him.
You lead by placing dreams in front of people and asking them to follow them. Good leaders do anyway. From this taken all the way out you see all of existence as "brainwashing" and I thoroughly disagree.
As far as Anonomous - do you listen at all to the scorn and hate expressed through the threads here? I'll most likely be discarding mail for weeks.
Paul Crouch: ....I want you all to listen carefully. This is a word - a prophetic word that came to me on September the 25th.... The ministry of TBN is about to explode...... It is time, once and for all, to take your sword in hand, the mighty sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. Speak it out. Proclaim defeat to the enemies of God. Stand up, everybody. In the Name of Jesus, we proclaim defeat to the enemies of God. .... The enemies of God are defeated in the Name and by the blood of Jesus Christ. They are under our feet by the victory of Jesus Christ when He said, "Behold, I am He Who was dead, but am alive forevermore, and have the keys of death and of hell." We receive it in Jesus' Name. Take authority over the principalities and powers that dare to threaten this ministry. I have raised it up from infancy for My own purposes, saith the Lord. Just as I commanded Ezekiel to prophesy life to dry bones, and they took on life, so I am commanding you to prophesy death to the threats, challenges, and bondages the enemy has placed on TBN. Command them to cease and desist, and you will see this dilemma die and disappear before your eyes. God, we proclaim death to anything or anyone that will lift a hand against this network and this ministry that belongs to You, God. It is Your work, it is Your idea, it is Your property, it is Your airwaves, it is Your world, and we proclaim death to anything that would stand in the way of God's great voice of proclamation to the whole world. In the Name of Jesus, and all the people said Amen! (Praise The Lord Trinity Broadcasting Network November 7, 1997)
Thought the quote at the bottom of the page was so very appropriate...
Against stupidity the very gods Themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich von Schiller, "The Maid of Orleans", III, 6
-Dead Lesbian Witches! Think about it!
What qualifies as hosting your own content? I.E. Say I run a web server on my DSL line (which is true), and I do something like host a mirror of controversial material. Who is the service provider in this case, me or my ISP? It would seem to me I am, and that my ISP wouldn't come into the picture, because my agreement with them says it's my line and I can do with it what I want, and anything that says 'lawyer' on it will be forwarded in my general direction.
Interesting point. I would almost agree, but I really can't see how your ISP could get out of all legal responsibility. I imagine you would have primary legal responsibility for the content of the site in question. However, let's say that you are court-ordered to take down the site, and you refuse. The next step would probably be to order the ISP to pull the plug on your connection. I can't see how the ISP would be completely immune of any legal requirement to follow that order. No matter what is in the service agreement, I would think that the provider (once notified of the offense) holds some legal responsibility if it refuses to pull the plug.
In addition, I have trouble believing that your DSL agreement says that the line is yours and you are free to do with it anything you want. I don't think I've ever seen a service agreement of any kind that doesn't include clauses that 1) stipulate that you will not use the service in any of a whole list of inappropriate fashions, and 2) allow the provider to immediately disconnect the service if you violate any part of the agreement. Also, most residential agreements specifically prohibit running servers, although that clause is rarely enforced.
"Where do I get this crap"? a scientologist asks
in a storm of ad hominen
dear Anoymous Coward,
http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/censorship/
how nice to see a live yapping scientologist borg here, is this Sylvia Stanard?
Scientologists should read:
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/motivate.html
the
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/FINAL.htm
you will find that a step off the "bridge to total freedom" is a step UP.
Arnie Lerma
http://www.lermanet.com
Having a bad day Scientology? Can only yell lies lies lies but never reply to http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/censorship/ Well, kiss my website once more http://www.lermanet.com See the Scientologist with no head http://www.lermanet.com/PhotoLIES.htm Re "yapping" you don't say anything, you just yap like some annoying version of "drop the chalupa" Care to post the project orders you are operating on? Meanwhile, read about your scientologists that broke in the assistant US Attorney Generals office. Oh but I know you "don't do that anymore' Are these postings the tip of a new iceberg of what you do try to accomplish? But you are right about one thing, "borg" is a better description, and Scientology's Religious cloaking device, does work about the same way as the Star Treck's Romulan Cloaking device http://www.lermanet.com/reference/77Granjurypart1. htm Arnie Lerma
to do what the government-megacorporation alliance tells you to do. Really, in the US you have no rights whatsoever, which fact is becoming more and more obvious as blatantly immoral - and probably illegal - legislation like the DMCA and UCITA are being passed by people who ought to know that they aren't accurately representing their constituents. And everybody knows this. For that matter, everybody knows you have no rights anywhere else either. All that's left is to sit back and wait for the revolution. Here's to hoping that what we get out of it will be better than what we've got now.
And when I said battle, I meant it. My money's on the Slackers--the followers of Bob. First of all Bob is just more powerful than Xenu (look at the pipe; does Xenu have a pipe?). Second, take a look at last year's apocalypse! Find me a Scientologist who can win this--the Church of the SubGenius have been practicing since X-Day 1996.
An Introduction to Slack
--
Can you give a link to the secondary patent? What does the secondary patent cover? It can't cover the same thing the first patent covers, right? I'd really like to know more about this. I figured the patent was history already, but I hadn't heard of the secondary patent.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I mean, isn't in a copyright owner's privalige to not allow their copyrighted work to be used to disparage them?
NO. They have no right to "not allow their copyrighted work to be used to disparage them". If someone writes a book, I buy the book at Barnes and Noble, and then use the book as the basis for a review saying how terrible the book is, that's my right of free speech under the Constitution. It's like reviewing any other product out there (aside from software, where sometimes the EULA explicitly forbids such things...though I don't know about the legality of such clauses as IANAL) If they don't want people to be able to criticize their work, they shouldn't release it.
IANAL, but they should have SOME right to prevent the distribution of copyrighted images and terms, and trademarked names
That's not what's going on here. What's being distributed isn't copies of copyrighted material. It's like if I buy a car. I can auction off any car I buy on EBay, without having to have the permission of the car company. Now, I can't go and copy their (copyrighted) designs/logos they have on the car; but I can sure as hell sell a car they made with said logos on it to whoever I want. The selling of the "e-meter", a physical device which was *sold* to the person auctioning it off, is perfectly legal. The Church of Scientology is just trying to use the threat of litigation (and one doesn't have to be a lawyer to know they'd likely have the suit thrown out in a heartbeat) to silence critics (who, naturally, point to the e-meter as being rather ridiculous as a "lie detector")
Now, the DCMA's loophole, designed to protect copyright owners, is clearly being exploited. The Church of Scientology is well known for alledgedly filing motions that won't be upheld merely to by time or harass the victim. Indeed, this is standard legal manuevering.
I would like to see more of this with specifics as to the auctions, before we just bash on the Church of Scientology. If this is using a loophole for harassment, time for a letter writing campaign, getting the law fixed would be easy in that case. The government officials are not terribly thrilled with the CoS, and if it is being used to harass law abiding citizens, it will no doubt be fixed.
Thing is, it's clearly not a loophole in the law. It's the CoS pretending such a loophole exists and saying "oh we'll sue you if you don't stop auctioning these". So it's not something the lawmakers can fix; it's merely the CoS using the threat of litigation as a tool of harassment (which as you noted, is nothing new for them). This isn't something that can really be fixed by changing the DMCA.
And really, even if the auctions contained disparaging remarks by the individual selling the devices, that still has no legal effect on the auction itself. If the individual overstepped themselves and posted defamatory remarks, then it would be possible for the CoS to sue for defamation/libel. But since the CoS isn't doing that, I think it's safe to assume that the auctions contained no such language (and EBay itself would probably pull any such postings unilaterally, anyhow)
I am a law student who has studied copyright, but I don't pretend to be a lawyer yet...
... and the location of the material.
I've looked through all of these messages here, but I've seen no one suggest the obvious: use the DMCA and send Ebay a counternotice.
The procedure for a counternotice is in the DMCA / Copyright Act at 17 U.S.C. section 512(g)(3). It must include the following:
(A) A physical or electronic signature [of yours].
(B) Identification of the material that has been removed
(C) A statement under penalty of perjury that the subscriber has a good faith belief that the material was removed or disabled as a result of mistake or misidentification of the material. (Me: you would base your faith on the first sale doctrine discussed elsewhere).
(D) [Your] name, address, and telephone number, and a statement that [you consent] to the jurisdiction of Federal District Court for the judicial district in which the address is located...
Of course, this would force the CoS to sue you in court or leave you alone. In my non-expert opinion, they would fail miserably but you may not want to risk them actually trying to sue you.
They have already been going after anti-CoS sites. Your only chance of having an anti-CoS site nowdays is if and only if it is in a country that forbids CoS itself - Germany or France (someone quote other countries please).
Considering in the second case that this also means complying with language purity laws this means only Germany.
Otherwise you are permanently under litigation threat.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
*WARNING* Random pot shot against CoS!
As the CoS doesn't seem to be growing (if it is, it isn't very fast, or the CoS would be a major religion by now)...
Gee, with the tons of stupid people out there, you'de think CoS would be overtaking Christianity soon. Well, I guess you can't fool all the people all the time.
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
I'll swear, under penality of perjury, that I claim to be an owner of IP. I won't swear that I *AM* the owner of said, IP.
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
>OMIGOD, Subgenius is a JOKE religion. It's FAKE. Either you are being facetious or are somekinda dense.
:) :)
Hehe yeah... The diffrence between Subgenius and Scientology is the Scientologists take it sereously...
I once sat down and drafted up my own little religion... "The Great Fuzzy" aka "The furball of Cthulu"
He has one commandment "Do not believe in me.." accually for those who believe in him he has a second comandment "Leave me alone"
The path to enlightenment is blasphamy...
Be blasphamus and you shall become a saint
Anyway I put the joke aside and got on with my life
I don't actually exist.
Here is one mirror already: http://static.userland.com/misc/elian/
cpeterso
Just a legal question here... It seems to me the DMCA should *only* apply to the US of A territory. If you're not American and your server is not in the US of A, the DMCA should normally take its way home (/dev/null).
What's whith those American laws being appliable everywhere? As far as I know, American laws ain't legal/enforcible anywhere else than the US of A. Hey, what would the Americans say if I came to the US of A and try to enforce a Swiss law? They'd laugh at me. Well, I laugh at the DMCA!!!
Seems to me the Yankees are once again doing their imperialist shit over the rest of the world. Sorry folks, but that ain't gonna work.
And I *know* eBay is based in the US of A. Now, feel free to flame me, for what I care...
max
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Well... if that's the case, then my argument is totally irrelevant ;)
Regardless of how 'evil' the CoS is, and all their other exploits...
If the E-meter was clearly CoS property from the beginning, and not the property of the person auctioning it, or rather, if the CoS has *never* transfered ownership of an e-meter to someone else, and can demonstrate that they *always* own them, then nobody has a right to sell them. Period.
talking about something. It's still merely opinion until it's gone through a court and come out of the other end.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
You missed the point. O'Reilly owns the copyright to their books. But the first sale doctrine prevents them from exerting any control over those books once they're sold. IOW, you can buy books by the hundreds from O'Reilly and resell them on eBay, and copyright law says that's okay.
(And, no, the DMCA does not mean any of those things. Please try to understand the issues before forming opinions. IMHO, the DMCA is a Bad Thing, but not for those reasons. We share the same cause, but your ignorant ranting doesn't help.)
whuppy enjoys smelling like diesel fuel
Go look up "Wheatstone Bridge" in any first year electronics text.
Looks like the "Bridge to Total Freedom" is a "bridge" after all.
That is, IF you send in such a notice, you are opening yourself up to a charge of perjury. It would be nice if some brave soul(s) tried to do that, but they'd have to be quite brave.
"Oh, I hope he doesn't give us halyatchkies," said Heinrich.
Someone needs to start a slashdot-like website for lawyers called: (IAALaIMHO.org) I Am A Lawyer and In My Humble Opinion dot Org
You mean like this one?
http://www.prarielaw.com/
I meant to use this one, though that other one fits as well. This one is more slashdot-ish oriented.
http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/
Is that funny? To me, it seems just accurate/informative.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Whilst I agree, I don't think that's the worse consequence of their sale being inhibited. It's vital that this kind of machine is publically available, so that members of the public can make an informed decision as to whether an e-meter could be effective for psychoanalysis or whether it is just a rheostat. If non-scientologists can't get hold of e-meters, it's harder to test the claims the "Church of Scientology" makes.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
I can only speak from my personal experience. When I was 8, a Christian "evangelist" persuaded my (non-Christian) parents to send me for "lessons". She then convinced me that my parents were evil and would go to hell. I was quite shaken up till a few months after I finally stopped going.
Now I'm not going to argue about whether what she was saying was true or not. It wasn't the right thing to tell me when I was 8, because it left me with a terror which I had no way of handling at the time.
However, my point is that I can safely live openly today as a non-Christian without fear of retribution. And most mainstream Christians will not try to prevent "heretics" from peacefully coexisting in society (in the UK, anyway). If I'd had a Scientologist indoctrinating me, and then left the Church of Scientology, I would probably have suffered intimidation and quite possibly violence. And that's the difference.
I quite agree. If I was talking about Christianity as it was practised in the 14th Century in Europe, I would call it an extremist cult without hesitation. If Scientology ever matures to be as inoffensive as modern, mainstream Christianity, I will stop calling it a cult. Until then, it must be fought tooth and nail.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Hmmm, I think I'm feeding a troll, but I'll bite just in case.
Scientology is a "fake religion" in the sense that the guy who set it up and the people running it now almost certainly didn't and don't believe what they tell people. A lot of what the CoS says about him is a pack of lies.
Lisa McPherson was covered in bruises and left dehydrated for days - in a Scientology "Hotel"! See photos of the autopsy on the Web if you like.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Damnit...does this mean I can't sell my nauseating multicolored electronic glowing christ window ornament?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
There are many other items there that CoS seems to use to make money from... why don't they go after those too?
--
Sadly Scientology has more lawyers than god (or the devil) and are used to cowering people inro submission
What qualifies as hosting your own content? I.E. Say I run a web server on my DSL line (which is true), and I do something like host a mirror of controversial material. Who is the service provider in this case, me or my ISP? It would seem to me I am, and that my ISP wouldn't come into the picture, because my agreement with them says it's my line and I can do with it what I want, and anything that says 'lawyer' on it will be forwarded in my general direction.
I've been wondering about this for a while. In my case the server is co-located at an ISP. I pay for an ethernet connection to the network but still completely own the box.
If they can hold an ISP responsible for providing connectivity to someone then no one is safe. If someone can clarify this it would be appreciated.
I'm also curious about the "under penalty of perjury" thing. What is the penalty for perjury for a corporation, church, or government? Does someone get sent to jail? Or does the organization get fined into bankruptcy? What is the penalty for an individual? Do individuals get fined a percentage of their annual income? I just want to know what incentives large organizations have to avoid abusing the DMCA.
numb
Under any normal circumstances, any religion started by a bad scifi writer that believes we were planted here on Earth by an alien race and that we will one day be collected by that race and taken to our real home planet would have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. Unfortunately said religion is supported by numerous Hollywood actors. Hollywood actors have money. Now the church of Scientology has money. Now they have credibility. *sigh*
-- From my Best Friend (Written to me over ICQ): "i was gonna go to a party...but i had to reinstall windows"
is that if any schmuck can buy on of these dodads, why the hell should the Church of Scientology care if one's getting sold on eBay? OTOH I've heard that these guys are big on the strongarm intimidation stuff to get their way, so maybe this was just a "proof of concept" thing. Maybe next they'll go after anti-CoS websites? Or booksellers with anti-CoS books? Hey, the sky's the limit people!
I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is. -- L. Ron Hubbard, 1949.
For this reason, calling them "extremist" is totally, utterly different from using the word to describe anyone who disagrees with your religious beliefs.
This would sit better with me if the Church of Subgenius did not require regular donations so that I may be saved from the Xists. To quote Bob:
"You'd PAY to know what you REALLY think.", Dobbs, 1961
Also, one of the Subgenii tenets is that of killing and/or endlessly torturing all of our enemies once the Xists come, so his comment seems to implicitly include me, which I can't say I'm particularly fond of.
And no, I don't like the Church of Scientology much either. OTOH Lavey (founder of the Church of Satan) had some pretty interesting (though at times admittedly strange) ideas. [This comment is probably going to make me quite unpopular in this thread, methinks].
I'd agree with you there, the ideas of the Church of Satan are fascinating and IMHO a lot closer to human nature than most religions I've encountered. And it's not really a "religion" in the traditional sense - it's more about the self than anything else.
:)
For more info read his book The Satanic Bible
Yes, I know. There's a copy sitting on the coffee table, along with various Subgenius literature. Makes for great conversation when guests come over.
This is the funniest article about CoS i have yet read. After being a Guardian Angel the Authors joins the Celebrity Center in Los Angeles posing as German Rockstar from the Band Nein!Nein!Nein!.
OTOH Lavey (founder of the Church of Satan) had some pretty interesting (though at times admittedly strange) ideas. [This comment is probably going to make me quite unpopular in this thread, methinks].
Well, not in my case anyway :) I'd agree with you there, the ideas of the Church of Satan are fascinating and IMHO a lot closer to human nature than most religions I've encountered. And it's not really a "religion" in the traditional sense - it's more about the self than anything else. The central idea is that there is no entity called "Satan" or whatever - it is an integral part of every person and should be accepted. Anton La Vey has got some great ideas and shouldn't be dismissed for his use of the word Satan.
For more info read his book The Satanic Bible, and the official site is here.
The "./ IANAL crowd" is the most important group to listen to because they represent a general morality, not a legal interpertation.
Okay, that's a very interesting interpretation of the IANAL crowd, and one worth bearing in mind whenever you read such a post. However, the thing is that often they don't seem to realise this themselves, and get caught up in poor legalese. This is what some more expert opinion would alleviate. Once there are some facts available, informed discussion, which is much more productive, can take place.
The law is only right when the majority supports it, and the lawyers and music industry are far from a majority.
But unfortunately, change is slow, and we have to deal with the law as it stands, which means that lawyers are a necessary evil. And they might be minorities, but they're very vocal and influential ones in America, whereas the voice of reason is much less heard by those in power.
It seems like CoS is upto its usual tactics of intimidation again. I still remember the days of the Fishmann avidavit and the stirr that it caused. :-) I don't like them at all, but in this case I wonder if it is worth to start a religious war about. The devices that they have patented, are pretty well known and the schematics can be found in the IBM-patent database, so the information is freely available. I am not an electrical engineer, but the schematics probably let you build one yourself.
:-)
I feel sorry for the dude who is not making some money on those things, though he could do what it sais in the ebay reply and go to court over it. But, why would he? He can still advertise it in newspapers etc.
The only thing this shows is, as Declan McCullagh commented, that the DMCA is flawed and that it needs reparations, but we knew that allready. (didn't we?)
Use Adsense for Charity
Ebay isn't going to risk getting into trouble over a few measly auctions, be they legal or not. Scientology is very good at causing great deals of trouble without any sort of legal justification. It's as simple as that.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
And the answer is, OF COURSE NOT!! Is it in a copyright holder's privilege to CENSOR OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS? ARG!! The primary purpose of fair use is to PREVENT copyright holders from using copyright to prevent criticism -- clearly a valid principle. Scientology has, interestingly enough, repeatedly used "intellectual property" laws, particularly trade secret law, and others to prevent criticism. The EFF has a whole section on that matter.
The entire purpose of copyright is, in fact, to encourage the creation of new works. Allowing authors to use copyright to *prevent* the creation of new works on the basis that they are critical is, frankly, absurd. Copyright law recognizes that it is absurd, but copyright law doesn't work how it is written -- the threat of a suit, no matter how little merit it actually has, is enough for a large company or organization to get its way most of the time. Both against the little guys, because they can't fight it, and against the big guys, because they don't want to.
(Yet another example of the countless annoyances and pitfalls of "intellectual property" restrictions in general.)
I am the service provider. Come and get me. The Associated Pricks can take the DMCA and shove it. Hey Elian! Wassup!
The DMCA must die. Now. Do not let them kill fair use!
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
What's funny is that I'm used to 'CoS' meaning 'Church of Satan'. I think it gives the right connotations, but tarnishes the image of Satanism.
---
script-fu: hash bang slash bin bash
[ approaching AI ]
For that matter, this makes clear why the nefarious Powers are trying to rush UCITA past state legislatures before anyone gets a chance to understand it: They are deathly afraid that the courts will wake up and recognize that the restrictive licenses are illegitimate. In other words, perhaps the Windows 98 CD is like a book and thus the doctrine of First Sale applies: Once I've bought it, I can resell it for whatever price I choose, and MS loses all control over its further distribution.
The full implication of this would be staggering ... and, I think, beneficial.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
>If you're willing to open yourself up to charges of perjury, feel free.
:-)
Not necessarily. My bet is that the CoS has not opened itself up to perjury in this way - the letter will threaten legal action rather than make a non-vague legal claim, and E-bay will act on it because E-bay couldn't care less about losing one sale in a million - it's easier than running even a small risk of legal proceedings. Like the case of ISPs in the UK - they _know_ they could win the court case if it came to court, but it's easier to just pull the thing.
Is there any way we could get a copy of the CoS letter to E-bay? Get a free lesson from the Pro's?
With respect to eBay suing the Church of Scientology for malicious prosecution, they do not necessarily have a good case. In fact, right now, they do not have a case. Here is the chain of events that would have to happen prior to eBay being awarded damages against the Scientologists: 1. eBay tells the Church to bug off (instead of caving in like they did). 2. The Church sues eBay. They'll sue not just under the DCMA, but also anything else that they can thing of, such as the aformentioned UTICA (which, granted, I'm not familar with at all), the common law tort of conversion (alleging some sort of continued ownership interest in the object), and whatever else their attorneys can make up. 3. The Church goes down in flames, and their case is dismissed by the judge at the demurrer stage, which means the judge would determine that even if all of the facts alleged by the Church were true, the Church still wouldn't have a case. 4. Then, eBay sues the Church for malicious prosecution. If eBay can prove that the Church didn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of a case, then they can win. Ordinarily, the damages for malicious prosecution amount to attorney fees and costs (essentially everything shelled out by eBay defending themselves). Punitive damages are awardable, but only if the court finds that the actions of the Churce were oppressive, willful, wanton, etc. While malicious prosection is certainly malicious enough, punitive damages are not required to be awarded here. eBay winning the lawsuit filed by the Church after a trial is probably enough of a showing that the Church had a good enough case that they're acts were not a malicious abuse of legal process. For eBay to prevail in their malicious prosecution cause of action, the court would have to dismiss the Church's case, either at the demurrer stage, or after the church presents their case at trial. David A. Brown Now I get to go back to studying for the Bar Exam.
144l. ph34r my 133t l3g4l 5k1lz!
of harassing people. For example, do a netsearch for "scientology harassment alt.religion.scientology" and you'll find lots of information about them spamming this newsgroup to destory any legitimate communication. They do this because it's mostly critical of the "religion". There are many other cases of Scientologists harassing people, and they are one of the groups that really make me mad.
Here's another one for sale.
Get it quick!
Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.
What qualifies as hosting your own content? I.E. Say I run a web server on my DSL line (which is true), and I do something like host a mirror of controversial material. Who is the service provider in this case, me or my ISP? It would seem to me I am, and that my ISP wouldn't come into the picture, because my agreement with them says it's my line and I can do with it what I want, and anything that says 'lawyer' on it will be forwarded in my general direction.
So, in short, is the content provider the person/entity who runs the web site or server or wherever you're accessing the information from?
--------------------
After following that link, I went to http://search.ebay.com to do a different search, and stumbled upon the default Apache home page.
Very handy. Now I can delete all that Apache documentation from my own server, and just link to http://search.ebay.com/manual/index.html instead!
Boy, with this level of sophisticated system administration, it's hard to believe eBay has a history of downtime.
---------------------------------------------
SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clearly, the electronic device is sold to users and can be resold. Even if it is licensed, arguing non-transferability would probably fail. Software non-transferability makes sense in some cases (Partition Magic... I mean, just not being able to use two copies at once is meaningless) but I think that trying to apply it to hardware would fail. I mean, copyright prevents copying, but that would be an interesting lawsuit.
The Church of Scientology no doubt has multiple copyrights on images, terms (well, trademarks), statements, etc. If the pictures were taken by the owner but intentionally designed to looks like official photos, that may also be a copyright violation.
Now, the Church clearly doesn't have a legal leg to stand on to prevent sales (and if they sell it anyway, why would they, I mean, the resale market through E-bay won't really effect their bottom line to the extent legal fees will), but they can probably protect certain terms.
Especially if the listings are critical of the church. I mean, isn't in a copyright owner's privalige to not allow their copyrighted work to be used to disparage them? IANAL, but they should have SOME right to prevent the distribution of copyrighted images and terms, and trademarked names.
Now, the DCMA's loophole, designed to protect copyright owners, is clearly being exploited. The Church of Scientology is well known for alledgedly filing motions that won't be upheld merely to by time or harass the victim. Indeed, this is standard legal manuevering.
I would like to see more of this with specifics as to the auctions, before we just bash on the Church of Scientology. If this is using a loophole for harassment, time for a letter writing campaign, getting the law fixed would be easy in that case. The government officials are not terribly thrilled with the CoS, and if it is being used to harass law abiding citizens, it will no doubt be fixed.
Now, I have as low an opinion of the CoS as the rest of the people here. HOWEVER, that does not make them guilty in this case. Indeed, I am willing to grant them significant breadth of actions as a religious organization, so I want to see facts before I attack them.
Alex
It seems that eBay takes the opposite tack of discussion groups; eBay actively monitors and exercises control of the listings on their sites by removing auctions practically at the drop of a hat. Does this make eBay liable for auctions on their site?
It's pretty clear what legal advice eBay was given by their counsel. However, that doesn't mean they are right. Does anyone expect to see a major lawsuit against eBay for an auction that slips by their monitors? Is it possible for eBay to be liable for an illegal auction that slips through the cracks?
Burris
Those of you familiar with bioelectrical character of the human body, might want to brouse http://www.lermanet.com/e-metershort.htm
There is evidence that the 100 - 200 uAmp current supplied by the E-meter may have a physiological effect.
My own web pages regarding this have been being hit heavily.
Invetigators would likely want to have one of these E-meters to evaluate them fully. Scientology wouldn't want them to have them.
But you don't need an e-meter.
The rough Theverin Equivalent of an emeter
is a 6 volt source driving a 100 to 200 uamp
current source.
Make sure you use large surface area hand held electrodes with approx 40 square inches of skin contact to the hands.
Soup cans work fine, that's what the Scientologists use.
http://www.prizm-medical.com/ has conductive gloves that would be useful for long exposure studies. They also market a low current device for pain kiling effects that uses large surface area devices.
Scientologists are forbidden from reading my conjectures. I used to be one. I used to build e-meters. I currently think they provide a edorphin release pain killing effect - which if undisclosed to the Scientologists, makes them think that hubbard was quite grand, while addicting the Scientology.
A recent article in the Washington Post described treatment of depression by electrical stimulation of the nervous system.
webbed at: http://www.lermanet.com/lowlevel.htm
The live time exposure of Scientologists to this small stimulating current is THOUSANDS of hours.
Just how long would I have to run a small electric current through your body, while telling you things that you wanted to hear, before you became convinced that I held the secrets of the universe?
John Travolta merely substituted the Scientology [tm] belief system, together with its subliminal, hidden, electrically induced endorphin "rush", for cocaine. He thinks he is "better", because the electrical addiction is hidden from him; he was just given a substitute.
http://www.lermanet.com/e-metershort.htm
http://www.lermanet.com
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the 90's
http://www.lermanet.com - mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
is the link at the bottom to an Onion article, "Travolta Hospitalized with critically low E-Meter readings"
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
In my Industrial Organization class, we went over the renting vs. selling monopoly model, and it is kinda interesting.
If you have a good, Widget, that will depreciate over time, you want to rent it, not sell it. The simple model is a two term model, where the good is worthless at that time.
You can calculate the rental price in both terms (S and D) easily. However, the sale price is interesting, because in term 2, the sale price is the rental price in term 1. The price in the first term is less than the price of renting for two terms.
Why? Well, in the rental scenario, the company produces Q* (where Q* = Q1 + (Q2 - Q1)) and rents Q1 of them in term 1, and Q2 in term 2.
In the buying scenario, the company produces Q1 units in term one, but in term 2, the old ones are "for sale" because the same people can keep them or resell them).
What is the point of all this? The CoS has a STRONG desire to eliminate the secondary market. Yes, anybody can buy them from them, but E-bay for the first time creates a secondary market. As it stands, because of the CoS's alledged behavior, former members probably hide as much as possible. As a result, I doubt that the old stuff is sold if people leave.
However, with E-bay, there is a valid secondary market. As the CoS doesn't seem to be growing (if it is, it isn't very fast, or the CoS would be a major religion by now), the number of E-meters needed by CoS people would be pretty constant. I mean, if the # auditors increases by 3% each year (I'm assuming the CoS keeps up roughly with the population, no more) than the market for new E-meters is VERY small. However, if you keep the already sold E-meters off the market, and see all the new ones, the market is larger and the prices are higher. That is why the CoS wants to stop this.
There probably are copyright issues... they probably own the images in use, have the name Trademarked, etc... As a result, they probably are legally at least somewhat on target. While they would probably lose, they can make it too costly.
Now, the CoS can write a letter (at most, a few hundred dollars in legal fees) and keep the secondary market closed, while each individual would have to fight the CoS in a large lawsuit to create the secondary market. Without a class action suit, there is no way to fight the lawsuit, as no individual involved has the incentive to fight, and the CoS WOULD fight. I mean, if they back down it is more profitable, but the credibility to legally fight is important to maintain. That way, they keep the secondary market closed.
Alex
As a device, the E-meter is dumb. It's a skin-resistance measurement device, the least useful channel of a lie detector. Real lie detectors measure blood pressure, respiration, and skin resistance. The current generation of lie detector is an interface box for sensors that plugs into a laptop, replacing the old chart-recorder machines. There's automated interpretation software available, too.
Scientology needs to update their technology. I'm suprised they don't have online web-based auditing by now, using a sensor box interfaced to a computer, voice over IP, and a Webcam.
Someone needs to start a slashdot-like website for lawyers called: (IAALaIMHO.org) I Am A Lawyer and In My Humble Opinion dot Org. I can see why we need an entire army of lawyers to function in this country. Didn't someone brittish upon hearing about the first draft of the constitution say, "They've written it down? Don't they know they'll be a-wash in lawyers?"
//
--// Hartsock
Live to Code, Code to Live!
If you have some time and are curious about Scientology, the following are interesting:
A Piece of Blue Sky and Lonesome Squirrel.
L. Ron Hubbard's "legacy" is an interest example of the weirdness of the human mind. Want more? Check out The Kooks' Museum, Donny Kossy's excellent look into the minds of the truly weird.
(or, get some balls, EBay)
The E-meter is a physical device, that does not require a license to operate (that is, it is easily obtainable through open channels available to the public without any licensing required). Therefore, the Scientologists have given up any right to control what is done with the E-meter, since they sell it without a license of any sort. Period.
Now, what is in the E-meter may be copyrighted, patented, or otherwise protected, so you can't automatically assume you can make a copy of it. However, so is any printed book. The courts have consistently ruled that the owner of a book may freely resell it in any manner whatsoever; that is, the copyright holder has no legal recourse to determine the resalability or conditions of use by the purchaser. I don't have the cases in front of me (Hawk, help!) but this is very well established case law. Once you own the book, you can do whatever you please with it; you just can't copy it (Fair Use, excepted). The physical item is yours, and noone, even with an army of lawyers, can force you do otherwise.
The DCMA is simply being used to confuse the issue. It is not in any way applicable to this case, as it concerns the COPYING and MANNER OF USE of copyrighted materials. It says nothing about the resale of copyrighted material which has been otherwise legally obtained. UTICA, however, might possibly apply here.
What this is is someone not consulting their legal department when they receive a demand letter (or, having a really bad lawyer look at it). The demand is invalid prima facia. This is the same as if O'Reilly had sent a demand to EBay to quit selling all those old copies of Programming Perl since they owned the copyright.
In fact, Ebay should countersue, for malicious prosecution (actually, the civil equivalent), and have a judge force the Scientologists to pay their lawyer fees, plus lost income (hey, this is Ebay, we can inflate that lost income any way we want, and no-one would know!), plus punative damages. I bet they could get a couple million if they pursued this.
Ebay needs to look at this as a revenue-generating opportunity! Hey, they might even get a stock uptick when they sue the Scientologists!
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
Scientology is fundamentally different from Christianity because it believes it is OK to lie to people when you're trying to convert them. For instance, scientologists will tell a Christian that scientology and Christianity are compatible. Let me give you some comparative quotes.
- Spot who is attacking us.
- Start investigating them promptly for FELONIES or worse using our own professionals, not outside agencies.
- Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them.
- Start feeding lurid, blood sex crime actual evidence on the attackers to the press.
DON'T EVER tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way." -- L. Ron Hubbard, Penalties for Lower Conditions.The examples go on and on. Scientologists are told to lie to people to advance their point of view. For this reason, calling them "extremist" is totally, utterly different from using the word to describe anyone who disagrees with your religious beliefs.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
This article is principally about the DCMA and not about Scientology, but if you're wondering why the Church of Scientology behaves as it does, it's worth looking at www.xenu.net to get some of the picture. (This is an anti-scientology site; obviously, look at www.scientology.org for the other side of the argument then choose which you believe).
As far as the DCMA stuff goes, I can't believe that it can restrict this much liberty and not get blown out of the water by the US Supreme Court for being an overextension of the government's powers. Unfortunately, until that slow legal process is actually complete, people in the US have to assume the law is valid. It's a case of the legal process being far too slow, once again.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
I'm really surprised that no one has thought of this before. Then again, maybe they have, and we just don't know about it. For every single item up on E-bay... write a letter claiming that it infringes on copyright. If what this article says is correct, E-bay will be forced to bring the item off, and if enough of this were done, either E-bay would change its policy, or it would garner headlines. And that would give us a real chance to get the law changed. Legal hacking.