RE: Having to purchase parts for EFI systems, etc. overseas because there are no longer any electronics manufacturers of note in North America is a tragedy.
Well then, let's just hope that we're never in a situation where we need EFI systems and for some reason (like, we're at WAR with that country) they don't wish to sell to us.
When I heard that one of Microsoft's top execs was quoted as saying "Think India. Think to yourselves, "what can I outsource today?"" My response is "Linux. Where can I replace Windows with it today?"
RE: But a bigger company has to add into this the cost of communicating, keeping up to date with the offshore team, crazy hours to keep in order to communicate effectively, hiring a translator, setting up a WAN for the office over there and here etc...
And what better way to guarantee your continued existence as a manager in these times of economic turndown, than to argue that you're suddenly valuable and not expendable because you're there til 7pm nightly, interfacing with the Bangalore team, doing TPS reports, etc.
I will buy a product from Ramachandravankar software if it's a great product.
But I would take great exception to paying first world prices to Microsoft, who will then in turn hire indentured cheap offshore labour.
I'm not opposed to Indian goods per se. I'm opposed to a system where they start with a parasitic relationship. Should they begin to start their OWN industries that produce their OWN products (and Vipro systems Inc. saying "we do your software cheap" isn't their OWN products - Ramachandravankar WordPro, Ramachandravankar SpreadSheetPro etc. IS) I'll consider it.
My motorcycle mechanic pointed out, wryly, that his Valkyrie was made in America with enough American parts that it can be labelled as "made in the USA" because for all intents and purposes it is, even though the company is owned by Japanese.
Whereas Harleys are increasingly being made with more and more foreign parts - to the point where Harleys CANNOT be labelled "made in USA".
He likes to throw that bit out at bikers who deride his "rice burner".
Actually, I know you were trying to be funny, but apparently the Society of Audiologists or whatever are furiously trying to get the word out about drugs like oxycodone, etc. and people who might be chronic heavy users, for legitimate reasons or not.
Apparently, they've been finding that people who take drugs in this class (vicodin, oxycodone, etc) can experience as a side effect sudden and near-total if not total and permanent hearing loss. Research is ongoing as to what's going on, but people who pop a lot of these pills for quite a while end up at risk for sudden deafness.
Naturally, if you're in enough pain that you need that kind of trank to go on living without curling up into a foetal ball and losing the will to live 24hrs a day (like when cancer REALLY takes a hold) you couldn't really give a rat's ass about this possibility.
But somehow I don't buy Rush's story about an auto-immune ear disease 86ing his hearing any more.
The job market in IT is booming. What are you talking about?
Oh, in America. I see. Well the job markets in China and India are up 30-35%. If you can write code and work for less money than a first world grocery bagger, the world is your oyster.
Uh, IBM has just sent something like 4500 jobs overseas. Naturally, the outgoing, soon to be flipping burgers workers are being told to train their Indian and Chinese replacements.
Naturally, there's a lot of bafflegab about competitiveness, and America needs to invest in its school system like the Indians have, yadda yadda yadda, but what it works out to, it's cheaper.
I guess I'll not be buying IBM in the near future. In the interests of cutting costs, and all that.
You know, there's part of me that just shakes his head and chuckles at the whole thing. They no longer BUILD anything, and now they want to get out of the business of DESIGNING things, they just want to employ about four rich fat cats to MARKET and CEO the damn things.
Yet, at the same time, they're sending their militaries all over the place to stomp people and assert American testosterological might.
However, I see a parallel to all this. Any of you seen Gone With the Wind? The part where the Southern gentlemen just come to learn that the Yankees want to take their mint-juleps-on-the-porch-while-the-slaves-work lifestyle away from em and vow to fight? And Rhett "Common Sense" Butler says, simply, "dudes, you have no armouries, no cannon-making forges, no mining, no resources except for cotton and slaves. You import everything like that from the North. And they'll stop selling it to you the moment war is declared. This is a fool's game." And the Southerners refuse to listen and get slaughtered.
Well, fast forward thirty years. The North is China. The South is the CEO class. The slaves are the poor hillbilly remnants of the once prosperous middle class. And when China makes a move that the USA CEO class finally is uncomfortable with, they'll find out too late that the modern equivalent of cotton and slaves, marketing and entertainment, can't be used to eat, build, heal or fight with.
Computer science/programming is a great career that will be in great demand well into the forseeable future (with respect to getting first world people and not Indians to take Comp. Sci.)
1) If they want to argue that we're too pricey, and that the Indians are cheaper, fine. You wanna play laissez-faire capitalism? So can we. I hear that Longhorn is selling in Thailand or whatever for $1. We'll just go directly to the Indians ourselves and cease paying your bloated CEO and marketing premiums.
2) These people live in fear that people will revolt and stop buying their sweatshop made goods. Make that a reality. Trust me, they'll bring the jobs back.
BBC America is basically "The Gardening and Changing Rooms channel." Just check out the freakin schedule already: Changing Rooms, Ground Force, Ground Force, Changing Rooms, Changing Rooms, Ground Force, Ground Force America, Keeping Up Appearances, Graham Norton, Ground Force, Changing Rooms, coming up soon, the Changing Rooms marathon...
They've stopped showing the cool shows, like "The League of Gentlemen" or any comedy other than "My Hero" (Starring "Father Dougal" Ardal "Me? Toipecast? Never" O'Hanlon) and "Keeping Up Appearances".
RE: The great works of the past that we all recognize are valued because the talent required to make them was rare back in the day.
Total, complete, and utter bullsh*t.
Painters belonged to GUILDS and were APPRENTICED. They weren't allowed to touch paint until they mastered chiaroscuro, they weren't allowed to shade until they got perspective right, and right from the beginning they were expected to draw, and draw VERY VERY WELL.
Once the master (who was a guild member, and had talent, education and experience) realised that a student had gotten the hang of a particular aspect, it was time to put him to work on many of the joe job aspects of a painting in progress, be it transferring an initial sketch of a cherub onto a patch of wall ready for more experienced apprentices to shade in, turning powder and oil into paint ready to use, or even priming and preparing the materials used to create the final painting products.
Where everything went to hell was when the Impressionists decided that they didn't want to learn, they wanted to go outside and throw splashes of pretty color that suggested the subject.
And then from there, we had every kind of -ism. What we don't have anymore is proper art education. Let me ask you this - is a music student expected to play Paganini's Caprice? Or is he first instructed in how to hold the violin and set to work playing scales over and over and over again until getting the note dead on is second nature, at which point simple melodies are introduced, etc? If the same people in charge of art were in charge of music, students would be praised for using the violin as a percussion instrument (only one performance, the instrument is totally destroyed, but what a chaotic juxtaposition of form and content!)!!!!!!
Against my better advice, the wife went and purchased a HP box from a computer megastore.
The damn thing kept smoking out all the time - but one of the biggest problems was that the drive geometry was completely whacked. Seems that their engineers worked out some hack (that's why you need to use their "repair disk") to make a certain disk size seem bigger, even though the drive geometry wouldn't support it at all.
What's a dropped bit here or there? Naturally, any attempt to use Norton to fix any of these disk problems caused Norton to say "er, this drive is completely whacked, none of the values for drive geometry make any sense or match anything else.... I'm giving up now. Go and make this drive work properly."
But no, you couldn't go and set the drive geometry PROPERLY (which would reduce the "disk size" quite a touch) because then the "repair disk" would happily set it back to its buggy, marketing-friendly "size".
RE: First, how interesting how loudly programmers cry now when during the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs they said nothing.
Actually, Harley Davidson have done a half decent job of protecting their market share against better engineered, foreign built motorcycles. They play the American Pride card. Why only be proud of your bike?
RE: Understanding business is not enough to become successful in that business. It is also naive to assume that Indians don't already know the (whatever) business.
If that's the case, why isn't there a RaviMicrosoftaChandrashakti? Why is it Microsoft?
If they're so good, why do they want OUR jobs? Can't they make their own?
Strange, in a time when there's no profits to be had, and people aren't buying anything where there aren't jobs, cuts need to be made.
If you outsource, sure you don't save any money, but management needs to be putting in overtime, drawing up contracts, having meetings, flying out to sunny exotic locations, tendering bids, etc.
Whereas, if you think about it, the reason why these tech companies fail is often due to total managerial incompetence.
"Yeah, we lost a pile of money, but we'll get it back, just approve our overtime and these travel expenses, and we'll lay off Engineering and replace em with cheap cogs." Way to recession proof your own jobs, you fatcats.
Tattoo this on every passerby, and we'll have our jobs back:
"A CIO at a famous Fortune 100 manufacturer has a recurring nightmare: As he continues to lay off American IT workers and move their jobs offshore to places such as India, never to return, American public opinion suddenly swings violently against globalization. He and his company are demonized, and Americans boycott his company's products."
Very simple. I've made a note of all the companies listed (Cigna, etc) who've stabbed this country in the back, and I WILL NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THEM. AND I WILL WRITE THEIR CEO, CIO, CFO to tell them why. I will also buy stock, so I can go into the board meetings and insist that the stockholders OUTSOURCE THE CIO, CFO AND CEO overseas, to save even more money and bump the stock price EVEN HIGHER.
You can also play the capitalist game one better, and refuse to buy from Cigna, saying that you'll just buy the product directly from the Indian manufacturer, thanks, and cut out their expensive marketing and CIO, CEO, CFO fat.
Like, this thesis, by oh eh hello I'm Bob, and this is by brother Doug, how's it goin' eh, anyway, the Canadian government's decided that based on this research we're now computer scientists, eh. Yeah, eh, we've come across like a revolutionary like improvement on like the original research, eh. Turns out that back bacon grease also works like a computer, eh - but you need to drink like a lot of beer to figure it out eh.
Slashdot Mirror
RE: Having to purchase parts for EFI systems, etc. overseas because there are no longer any electronics manufacturers of note in North America is a tragedy.
Well then, let's just hope that we're never in a situation where we need EFI systems and for some reason (like, we're at WAR with that country) they don't wish to sell to us.
"Bespoke" in couture refers to an item of clothing custom made to you - hence a "bespoke" suit, etc.
When I heard that one of Microsoft's top execs was quoted as saying "Think India. Think to yourselves, "what can I outsource today?"" My response is "Linux. Where can I replace Windows with it today?"
RE: But a bigger company has to add into this the cost of communicating, keeping up to date with the offshore team, crazy hours to keep in order to communicate effectively, hiring a translator, setting up a WAN for the office over there and here etc...
And what better way to guarantee your continued existence as a manager in these times of economic turndown, than to argue that you're suddenly valuable and not expendable because you're there til 7pm nightly, interfacing with the Bangalore team, doing TPS reports, etc.
Check out http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/
You can still buy reasonably priced goods that benefit people here.
Yes, it is helping them.
I will buy a product from Ramachandravankar software if it's a great product.
But I would take great exception to paying first world prices to Microsoft, who will then in turn hire indentured cheap offshore labour.
I'm not opposed to Indian goods per se. I'm opposed to a system where they start with a parasitic relationship. Should they begin to start their OWN industries that produce their OWN products (and Vipro systems Inc. saying "we do your software cheap" isn't their OWN products -
Ramachandravankar WordPro, Ramachandravankar SpreadSheetPro etc. IS) I'll consider it.
My motorcycle mechanic pointed out, wryly, that his Valkyrie was made in America with enough American parts that it can be labelled as "made in the USA" because for all intents and purposes it is, even though the company is owned by Japanese.
Whereas Harleys are increasingly being made with more and more foreign parts - to the point where Harleys CANNOT be labelled "made in USA".
He likes to throw that bit out at bikers who deride his "rice burner".
Actually, I know you were trying to be funny, but apparently the Society of Audiologists or whatever are furiously trying to get the word out about drugs like oxycodone, etc. and people who might be chronic heavy users, for legitimate reasons or not.
Apparently, they've been finding that people who take drugs in this class (vicodin, oxycodone, etc) can experience as a side effect sudden and near-total if not total and permanent hearing loss. Research is ongoing as to what's going on, but people who pop a lot of these pills for quite a while end up at risk for sudden deafness.
Naturally, if you're in enough pain that you need that kind of trank to go on living without curling up into a foetal ball and losing the will to live 24hrs a day (like when cancer REALLY takes a hold) you couldn't really give a rat's ass about this possibility.
But somehow I don't buy Rush's story about an auto-immune ear disease 86ing his hearing any more.
A USB Mohel?
Input the parameters pertaining to the size of the infant in question and bada boom bada bing, the unguarded fan blade does its work.
No thanks. I'll pass.
The job market in IT is booming. What are you talking about?
Oh, in America. I see. Well the job markets in China and India are up 30-35%. If you can write code and work for less money than a first world grocery bagger, the world is your oyster.
Uh, IBM has just sent something like 4500 jobs overseas. Naturally, the outgoing, soon to be flipping burgers workers are being told to train their Indian and Chinese replacements.
Naturally, there's a lot of bafflegab about competitiveness, and America needs to invest in its school system like the Indians have, yadda yadda yadda, but what it works out to, it's cheaper.
I guess I'll not be buying IBM in the near future. In the interests of cutting costs, and all that.
Another sabmaggot? Rock on.
Proud 83 Magna V45 owner........
You know, there's part of me that just shakes his head and chuckles at the whole thing. They no longer BUILD anything, and now they want to get out of the business of DESIGNING things, they just want to employ about four rich fat cats to MARKET and CEO the damn things.
Yet, at the same time, they're sending their militaries all over the place to stomp people and assert American testosterological might.
However, I see a parallel to all this. Any of you seen Gone With the Wind? The part where the Southern gentlemen just come to learn that the Yankees want to take their mint-juleps-on-the-porch-while-the-slaves-work lifestyle away from em and vow to fight? And Rhett "Common Sense" Butler says, simply, "dudes, you have no armouries, no cannon-making forges, no mining, no resources except for cotton and slaves. You import everything like that from the North. And they'll stop selling it to you the moment war is declared. This is a fool's game." And the Southerners refuse to listen and get slaughtered.
Well, fast forward thirty years. The North is China. The South is the CEO class. The slaves are the poor hillbilly remnants of the once prosperous middle class. And when China makes a move that the USA CEO class finally is uncomfortable with, they'll find out too late that the modern equivalent of cotton and slaves, marketing and entertainment, can't be used to eat, build, heal or fight with.
Ever have the feeling this whole thread could just be replaced by a small script, macro or preprocessor directive?
#include "thank_you_come_again.h"
#include "indians_are_great_I_work_with_em_here.h"
#include "taking_all_our_jobs.h"
#include "youre_fat_and_lazy_and_expensive.h"
#include "curry_muncher_7_11.h"
#include "Nazi_accusation.h"
#include "Godwins_law.h"
Computer science/programming is a great career that will be in great demand well into the forseeable future (with respect to getting first world people and not Indians to take Comp. Sci.)
1) If they want to argue that we're too pricey, and that the Indians are cheaper, fine. You wanna play laissez-faire capitalism? So can we. I hear that Longhorn is selling in Thailand or whatever for $1. We'll just go directly to the Indians ourselves and cease paying your bloated CEO and marketing premiums.
2) These people live in fear that people will revolt and stop buying their sweatshop made goods. Make that a reality. Trust me, they'll bring the jobs back.
BBC America is basically "The Gardening and Changing Rooms channel." Just check out the freakin schedule already: Changing Rooms, Ground Force, Ground Force, Changing Rooms, Changing Rooms, Ground Force, Ground Force America, Keeping Up Appearances, Graham Norton, Ground Force, Changing Rooms, coming up soon, the Changing Rooms marathon...
They've stopped showing the cool shows, like "The League of Gentlemen" or any comedy other than "My Hero" (Starring "Father Dougal" Ardal "Me? Toipecast? Never" O'Hanlon) and "Keeping Up Appearances".
RE: The great works of the past that we all recognize are valued because the talent required to make them was rare back in the day.
Total, complete, and utter bullsh*t.
Painters belonged to GUILDS and were APPRENTICED. They weren't allowed to touch paint until they mastered chiaroscuro, they weren't allowed to shade until they got perspective right, and right from the beginning they were expected to draw, and draw VERY VERY WELL.
Once the master (who was a guild member, and had talent, education and experience) realised that a student had gotten the hang of a particular aspect, it was time to put him to work on many of the joe job aspects of a painting in progress, be it transferring an initial sketch of a cherub onto a patch of wall ready for more experienced apprentices to shade in, turning powder and oil into paint ready to use, or even priming and preparing the materials used to create the final painting products.
Where everything went to hell was when the Impressionists decided that they didn't want to learn, they wanted to go outside and throw splashes of pretty color that suggested the subject.
And then from there, we had every kind of -ism. What we don't have anymore is proper art education. Let me ask you this - is a music student expected to play Paganini's Caprice? Or is he first instructed in how to hold the violin and set to work playing scales over and over and over again until getting the note dead on is second nature, at which point simple melodies are introduced, etc? If the same people in charge of art were in charge of music, students would be praised for using the violin as a percussion instrument (only one performance, the instrument is totally destroyed, but what a chaotic juxtaposition of form and content!)!!!!!!
Against my better advice, the wife went and purchased a HP box from a computer megastore.
The damn thing kept smoking out all the time - but one of the biggest problems was that the drive geometry was completely whacked. Seems that their engineers worked out some hack (that's why you need to use their "repair disk") to make a certain disk size seem bigger, even though the drive geometry wouldn't support it at all.
What's a dropped bit here or there? Naturally, any attempt to use Norton to fix any of these disk problems caused Norton to say "er, this drive is completely whacked, none of the values for drive geometry make any sense or match anything else.... I'm giving up now. Go and make this drive work properly."
But no, you couldn't go and set the drive geometry PROPERLY (which would reduce the "disk size" quite a touch) because then the "repair disk" would happily set it back to its buggy, marketing-friendly "size".
So, what you're saying is, once India has a regime change, Indian Capitalism will really blow up, and y'all will start your own big businesses?
RE: First, how interesting how loudly programmers cry now when during the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs they said nothing.
Actually, Harley Davidson have done a half decent job of protecting their market share against better engineered, foreign built motorcycles. They play the American Pride card. Why only be proud of your bike?
RE: Understanding business is not enough to become successful in that business. It is also naive to assume that Indians don't already know the (whatever) business.
If that's the case, why isn't there a RaviMicrosoftaChandrashakti? Why is it Microsoft?
If they're so good, why do they want OUR jobs? Can't they make their own?
Strange, in a time when there's no profits to be had, and people aren't buying anything where there aren't jobs, cuts need to be made.
If you outsource, sure you don't save any money, but management needs to be putting in overtime, drawing up contracts, having meetings, flying out to sunny exotic locations, tendering bids, etc.
Whereas, if you think about it, the reason why these tech companies fail is often due to total managerial incompetence.
"Yeah, we lost a pile of money, but we'll get it back, just approve our overtime and these travel expenses, and we'll lay off Engineering and replace em with cheap cogs." Way to recession proof your own jobs, you fatcats.
Tattoo this on every passerby, and we'll have our jobs back:
"A CIO at a famous Fortune 100 manufacturer has a recurring nightmare: As he continues to lay off American IT workers and move their jobs offshore to places such as India, never to return, American public opinion suddenly swings violently against globalization. He and his company are demonized, and Americans boycott his company's products."
Very simple. I've made a note of all the companies listed (Cigna, etc) who've stabbed this country in the back, and I WILL NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THEM. AND I WILL WRITE THEIR CEO, CIO, CFO to tell them why. I will also buy stock, so I can go into the board meetings and insist that the stockholders OUTSOURCE THE CIO, CFO AND CEO overseas, to save even more money and bump the stock price EVEN HIGHER.
You can also play the capitalist game one better, and refuse to buy from Cigna, saying that you'll just buy the product directly from the Indian manufacturer, thanks, and cut out their expensive marketing and CIO, CEO, CFO fat.
Ph.D Thesis
Like, this thesis, by oh eh hello I'm Bob, and this is by brother Doug, how's it goin' eh, anyway, the Canadian government's decided that based on this research we're now computer scientists, eh. Yeah, eh, we've come across like a revolutionary like improvement on like the original research, eh. Turns out that back bacon grease also works like a computer, eh - but you need to drink like a lot of beer to figure it out eh.