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USB Menorah
Fiver-rah writes "There's USB Christmas trees; lame acrylic things with LED lights that are powered by your computer. It's an amusing idea, but it doesn't really take advantage of being attached to a computer. Enter the USB Menorah. It can correctly calculate the dates of Hannukah for at least the next few thousand years (or any historical date back to 2 B.C.E.). As well as 'lighting' the candles based on when the sunsets (I set the default geography for San Francisco/Berkeley, but you can enter any latitude/longitude and (assuming you don't live too close to the arctic
circle) it will be correct to within a few minutes. Furthermore, the shamas (candle you use to light the other candles) can blink out any morse-code message you want--it'll convert the words to morse code for you! And you can even put it into Kwanzaa mode! Each candle can take three different colors (Red, Green & Yellow),
allowing you to do some animation. Software is a GPL command line program for Mac OS X. Basically only the USB communication stuff needs to be ported for other OS's. Delcom
(the manufacturer of the USB interface chip) supplies drivers for
Windows, and a few people have written Linux drivers, so it wouldn't be
too hard for a motivated individual."
+5 Confusing
nice idea, but I think the plastic look isnt to attractive.
-------- Could we (as a
i saw a usb powered toothbrush at some obscure japanes page, are there anything YOU cant power with usb?
*resistance is futile, or fuzzy, i dunno*
... they need an industrial designer to make a candle stick shaped body for these suckers. A bunch of LED lights on a bread board a minorah do not make.
Couse what do I know, I'm not Jewish.
"Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
This story goes well with this story.
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
Anyone got a translation of the video he's got linked? I may try if I get really bored, but if there's someone who's got experience dealing with morse, it'd prolly be a lot easier for them.
The Message
A Minesweeper clone that doesn't suck
The lamest USB gadget you can think of :
...
1) USB machine gun
2) USB umbrella
3) USB Inflatable doll
4) USB stapler
help me out here...
My FireWire Christmas tree beats the crap out of that!
Though perhaps "FireWire" isn't such a good word to use in the context of combustible wood...
The coolest voice ever.
I'm just curious. It's like a program to work out the day of the week on which Christmas Day fell that only went back to the time of Constantine.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Now I just feel silly... and slow. I must need more coffee. Or maybe a USB Menorah.
"...The mice will see you now..."
An article appears on /. and I get to the site before it gets /.'ed. Must be the season.
If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
While basically gimmics, stuff like this USB powered menorah and the USB toothbrush may be looked back on historically as the dawning of the pervasive computing age..
Next thing will be to make them interface via wireless ethernet.
Oy...and for this I sent you to MIT?
Is a USB FM Radio. They seem to have made them a few years ago, but there don't appear to be any widely marketed now.
ummmmmmmm.............the menorah is JEWISH, not muslim..........[offtopic]and anywho the us will not be safe until idiots like you figure out that the us is all made up of immigrants from all over the world......what would you do if they asked for the same to happen to you? [/offtopic]
I hope the people buying this tree realize that they have to keep an old computer working for a few thousand years and pass that computer to their children and so on and so forth. It would be a shame to not take advantage of its ability to calculate a thousands years into the future.
It would be really cool though if it could masquerade as something else when it's not christmas (holidays whatever). Both me and some of my friends are usually too lazy to take away decorations after christmas and you usually end with some smartass comments during summer.
How about lame LEDs on a circuitboard?
Jeez, if you're gonna be making fun religious hacks, don't knock the other stuff for being lame until your stuff doesn't look like it was ripped out of something else.
Here I was expecting some fun candle-shaped thingy...
You can't take the sky from me...
why pay? USB devices rarely work under Linux.
A dreidel with Bluetooth?
Think anyone's going to pay retail for that?
I'm waiting for the USB dreidl. Now that's a fun idea!
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
How about an Advent Wreath for those of us who are Catholic? Only 4 candles on that one. Granted, someone finding a cheap pink LED might make things tough...
Dumb fucking troll. Zionism and Judaism are mutally exclusive to one another. Surprise surprise, the largest group of acknowledged zionists today are fundamentalist american christians. You won't understand that because you haven't the slightest clue what zionism is.
Now go piss off to indymedia.
for their UPS kept their menorah lit for 8 full nights after the Syrian army cut the power!
Thus thou shalt celebrate for 8 days, lighting one LED each night.
Vonal Declosion
You already invoked the Godwin rule by uttering neo-nazi trash.
You've got to "live and let live" when it comes to Israel. Obsession with hating the Jews will bring you to no good end.
Very interesting post.
Could you please explain the difference between zionism and Judaism? I always thought they were the same.
"idiots like you figure out that the us is all made up of immigrants from all over the world"
Just a little correction: only a small percentage of the population of the United States is immigrant. The rest are natives.
To be exact, according to census figures, only 1 in 10 in America was an immigrant in 1997. No doubt this has increased in 6 years, but it is surely between 1 in 10 and 2 in 10 now.
(For those who are interested)
Although, most people who use this would probably know that this should not be intended to replace the actual lighting of a menorah.
In order to fulfill the religious requirement of lighting the menorah for the 8 nights of Chanukah, you need to use either candles or olive oil (to burn). (the other requirement is that all the candles except for the one used to light the others, must be at the same height)
Custer was not an immigrant. He was born and raised in Monroe, Michigan. He was surely a native. Native-born non-immigrant Americans, then, as now, came in many varieties (black, white, and the nations such as the Dakota).
anti-semite?!
I have some lights on my 'power station' that flicker and kind of move around like a candle light, don't know what these bulbs are but they could be used for the candle lights, if of course they all don't overdrive the usb power.
Natural-Selection Be
I'm not Jewish and I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject. All of the specifics in this post come from a book i've been reading, "War Without End" by Anton La Guardia, a reporter for The Daily Telegraph in the 90s.
Yawn.
BRAVO, I could not agree more !!!
Or maybe just some karma.
WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
I believe the distinction is that historically, Christ was probably not born in exactly the first year AD so BCE is intended to address that inaccuracy rather than increase political correctness. Though I do agree with the sentiment of your post in general.
I love Sundays on Slashdot. Spending the day with a massive hangover, reading the bizarre amount of racial epithets, etc. Highly entertaining.
Why is the above post flamebait? I think it is very informative to those who seriously consider using the device for religious purposes.
That questions makes me think of the iBrator:
h tm l
i br ator.html
http://www.sleeplessknights.com/Pages/itheater.
http://www.flamingmailbox.com/maccomedy/movies/
Can you ping me now? Gooood! | Manhappenin.Net - Things to do
Just to be precise, the device that is used during Hannukah is not a "Menorah," but rather a "Chanukiah" [Chah-noo-kee-yah, with "Ch" pronounced gutterally]. A "menorah" is the seven-branched candelabra that was around in the ancient temple (and often used today in synagogues as decorations). A "Chanukiah" is a nine-branched candelabra that is used on Hannukah to celebrate the 8-day "hannukah miracle," where legend had it the temple candles burned for 8 days and nights with oil that should have only lasted one night (so therefore a chanukiah has 8 candles plus one candle to hold the shamash, the candle that lights the other 8). Sometimes the nine-candled version is called a "Hannukah Menorah," but just "Menorah" is technically the seven-branched one, not the one used druing the holiday.
No, I'm not someone who goes around correcting people about this. I really don't care either way, but rather just in case anyone was interested...
ignorace...
i would think that this would be a well recieved hack, but it seems that you guys have nothing but brainless negativity. Who cares if its just in its preliminary stages? he ordered the parts, put it together, a wrote the code in about one week. besides he already has a case designed for someone else to make.
i hope everyone that posted something stupid\bigotous feels good about themselves.
-Emoticon
Yes Israel is neo-fascist trash this is true.
Israel is BASED ON ETHNIC CLEANSING, Israel HAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Israel continously FLAUNTS UN RESOLUTIONS.
It's all TRUE.
You invoked SHUT THE FUCK UP's law by being an apologist for zionist human rights violations.
Ramadan ended weeks ago. Now who's the insensitive clod?
Heck, it conveniently ended shortly before US Thanksgiving...
(to start, this may be offtopic, but I am merely responding to the above question to settle this issue which seems to come up every time something Jewish or Israeli appears on Slashdot)
There are many kinds of zionism.
Zionism is a political point of view; Judaism is a religion which may incorporate some kinds of Zionism.
The term Zionism comes from biblical verses referring to Jerusalem as Zion (or Tsion in Hebrew). At its core, Zionism is the belief and aspirations that the Jews should have a homeland in Israel.
As I stated at the beginning, there are many kinds of Zionists..
- Political Zionism - there should be state that can be used to protect Jews from violence (i.e. holocaust, etc.) and will give them a sence of normalicy
- Cultural Zionism - Israel should be the cultural centre of the Jewish people.
- Labour Zionism - To express the love for the land through working it (i.e. agriculture)
- Religious Zionism - Certain Jewish laws can only be kept in Israel, as a result, in order to fulfill these laws, one must be in Israel
- Socialist Zionism - To build Israel as a socialist state where all classes can unite and overcome anti-Semitism.
It should be noted there are other Zionists that are not Jewish that believe that all the Jews need to return to the Holy Land in order to fulfill the messianic prophecies
I hope this helps.
"Israel is BASED ON ETHNIC CLEANSING
Yes, Israel was formed out of a reaction to the ethnic cleansing of the Jews.
Israel HAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
So? WMD's are only a problem when the aggressive ones have them.
Israel continously FLAUNTS UN RESOLUTIONS
When these resolutions are touted by those who want to exterminate its people, the resolutions should be ignored.
"You invoked SHUT THE FUCK UP's law by being an apologist for zionist human rights violations"
I apologize for no human rights violations. By wanting to wipe out the Jews (and lying about Israel's people), your intent of human rights violations is quite clear.
Baroch Ato ashem Alokenu Melech Haolam Asher Kideshanu Bemitzvotaz Vezivano Lehadlik Ner Shel Hanukah
Amen!
Baroch Ato ashem Alokenu Melech Haolam Sheasa Nisim Laavoteinu Bayamim Hahem Bazman Hazeh
Amen!
Latces anyone? What about Sofganiyot?
All this religious stuff, and here Chris Kringle is getting oppressed! I want my USB RUDOLPH
This is my sig.
---
USB Menorah (Y/M/N) Y
Why not?
Why can't you just use the computer's clock to see what date it is?
--it'll convert the words to morse code for you!...
schweet! now we can combine this with steganography to encrypt messages in candle flickering! l33t! imagine a beo--ack!!
Thats not what i meant, i meant, is there nothing more interesting/newsworthy today that could have been posted...
TheHustler
http://www.elmarko.org/ - Useless bilge
http://www.asylum-games.co.uk/ - Co-Founder
But...wasn't jesus a Jew?
Apartheid Wall? Only in South Africa. The wall in Israel is to keep foreign invaders out. You can thank the Palestinian Government for its construction (they forced the issue).
"The RCC is not a biblical church, it has many places where it is flagrantly at odds with the Bible."
It is as biblical as any other sect. In fact, it had more of a role than any other sect in putting the Bible together.
USB Toothbrush
For those who are too lazy to search Google for this exact image.
This is the most fucking amazing thing. slashdot is set as my homepage. I opened my browser to search for a datasheet on none other than a 74164. I will be using 8 of them for a keyboard encoder for a MAME cabinet. The USB menorah link caught my eye, so I clicked on it. Amazingly he is using the 74164 and has the datasheet on his page. That was an interesting coincidence. I haven't been this baffled by an unlikely turn of events since I found a willing female.
Hanukkah ("Dedication"). Festival celebrated for eight days commencing on 25 Kislev, commemorating the victory of the traditionalist Maccabees over the Hellenistic Syrians, who attempted to eradicate the Jewish religion as part of their plan to hellenize their entire kingdom. The main events associated with Hanukkah took place between 165 and 163 BCE, although the Maccabees continued a military struggle with the Syrians for many years until the Jews of Eretz Israel had gained de facto independence. Hanukkah is thus a post-biblical festival, and the historical events it commemorates are described in the apocryphal book I Maccabees. It is not a full festival and there are no restrictions on work or other activities.
The Greeks took various steps to achieve their goal, among them the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem. I Maccabees (4:36-59) reports that the altar was defiled, the Syrian ruler, Antiochus Epiphanes, having commanded that sacrifices to pagan gods be offered on it. After a three-year struggle, the Maccabees under Judah Maccabee conquered Jerusalem, and demolished and rebuilt the defiled altar. They also produced new vessels for the Temple service, including a candelabrum, an altar for incense, a table, and curtains. According to a talmudic tradition, a small quantity of consecrated oil, for use in the candelabrum (Menorah), was found within the Temple precincts. Although it was only enough to burn for one day, the oil lasted for eight days, and the festival was established for this length of time to commemorate the miracle. The Books of Maccabees do not record this tradition. In II Maccabees, it is noted that the eight-day festival was instituted by Judah upon his rededication of the Temple, in accordance with the precedent of Solomon's eight-day dedication of the First Temple. Some scholars have advanced the theory that the festival was established for eight days owing to the Jews' inability to observe the eight-day festival of Sukkot during the fighting. With the Maccabean victory, this omission was rectified, and a celebration was held that combined Sukkot with thanksgiving for the victory and the rededication of the Temple.
The main observance of Hanukkah is the kindling of the festival lamp (Hanukkiyah) each night of the holiday. This practice gave the festival the additional name of Hag ha-Urim, "the Festival of Lights." The Talmud explains the lighting as publicizing the miracle (pirsume nissa; Shab. 23b) and in ancient times the lamp was put in the doorway or even in the street outside the house for this purpose. The lighting takes place immediately after dark except on Friday evenings, when it must be done before the kindling of the Sabbath lights, i.e., approximately half an hour before sunset. The candles are meant to burn for at least half an hour and must be kindled in a conspicuous place. They may be lit any time during the night as long as someone other than the lighter will see them. The practice of kindling the lights appears not to have been instituted until many years after the events which it commemorates.
The accepted procedure for kindling the Hanukkah lights is to light one candle (or oil lamp) on the first night and one additional candle on each following night (going from left to right), until the last night when eight candles are lit (kindling them from left to right). An alternate tradition is recorded whereby eight candles are lit on the first night, seven on the second, and so forth, until only one candle is lit on the eighth night. An additional candle called the shammash ("serving light") is used to kindle the other lights. The practice is essentially a home ceremony, but candles are lit also in the synagogue. Children are usually given a gift of money (hanukkah gelt) for the festival.
Hanukkah is expressed in the liturgy in a number of ways, the most important being the introduction of the Al ha-Nissim prayer in the Amidah and Grace after meals. Hallel is recited at the morning s
Because it finally spells the end of free media. A story like this could only make it on slashdot if the jews control the whole media. Damn. I guess it's true.
BTW the menorah looks like ass. Comparing it to a commercially made USB christmas tree is a joke.
As opposed to the non-combustible variety?
Ever tried to burn wet wood?
The coolest voice ever.
So, 2003 CE is fine. And naturally with that comes BCE. Personally, saying BC is just as fine, I don't care either or.
But AD does imply forcing the Christian religion on someone.
But AD does imply forcing the Christian religion on someone.
No, it does not in any way.
Allow me to take this opportunity to wish all of you on Slashdot a happy and healthy December (if your calendar calls this period of time "December").
Note: use of the term "happy" and/or "healthy" is not meant to single out one group at the expense of others, or to imply that only happy or healthy individuals are worthy of good wishes during the Seasonal Gifting Period.
Note: If your usual practices do not involve giving or receiving gifts, you may request a version of these good wishes with all references to the word "gift" removed, at no charge. Simply contact our office.
I think it's pretty fucked up that the Jews can create a Zionist state through repression and terrorism of Palestinians that have lived in the region for millenia. While I'm not real big on cheering for the underdog, the Palestinians have a pretty hard time just surviving day to day. They don't receive billions from the US government each year to spend on defense. They don't get Israeli subsidies just for moving to Israel and joining a settlement.
I don't pretend to understand the whole situation there but it seems like the Israelis have a pretty good thing going. They probably still have billions in the bank from post world war II paybacks from the German and other governments and the US donates to them constantly. In return they provide the US with feedback on the effectiveness of new weapons and tactics. There's no doubt that the Israeli military is one of the best in the world...with an unlimited budget and daily live target practice, I imagine they should be great.
The weird thing is, is that Israel is about the only country that can get away with this style of shit. Anyone else would get bombed in an heartbeat. If tomorrow, Russia started pushing the Chinese border back and killing Chinese, there would be a huge fucking backlash. If the US denied immigrants the right to be buried here, no matter how long they live here, there would be a backlash. But since the western world feels sorry for the jews, it's ok. Israel always smells rosy no matter what they do.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all jews are evil bla bla bla, I'm just wondering why Israel is so special.
That's the nerdiest thing I've ever heard about. Seriously. And I've used /. for almost six years.
I get the joke, I know it's funny, but my little PC gentile heart just won't let me laugh...
Freedom: "I won't!"
Not to split hairs or anything, but plenty of Jewish people wouldn't touch a USB menorah because they forego use of electronics on holy days. Also, no one lights menorahs during Hanukkah. They're called hannukiahs. A menorah has a completely different spiritual meaning and was kept lit in the Jerusalem temple. People like hannukiahs at home.
Wow, blinking LED's.. too bad my freshman year college blinking LED projects didn't make it to /. /.-able part of this project.
The USB interface has got to be the only
Well theres nothing really special about Israel, but keep this in mind, there are over one million muslims living Israel proper today. When Israel gained independence, they didn't expell any one.. repeat, ANY ONE. These muslims hold valid israeli passports and are free to travel to and from.
Israeli aggression is targetted at Muslim Fanatacism, which is a widespread phenoneon in the terroritories. Can you blame them ? They've been attacked by this anti-israeli philosphy four times since 1948, five times if you include the latest intifada... (which may or may not qualify as a proper war.)
Now imagine what measure the U.S. would have taken if Canada/mexico were as religiously anti-american as the muslims in the middle east are of the israelis. You can bet they'd be bombing canada and mexico right now.
You were not hallucinating about Syria. After Alexander the Great's death, his Greek empire was split into three territories
Alexander the Great's empire was not Greek as such. He himself was a Macedonian (then, as now, a territory close to, but outside of Greece), and his armies were described as "half- Macedonian, half-Greek"
ummmmmmmm.............the menorah is JEWISH, not muslim..........[offtopic]and anywho the us will not be safe until idiots like you figure out that the us is all made up of immigrants from all over the world......
Only 1 in 10 in the US is an immigrant.
What for would I want this Menorah-thing ?
Sounds like some Lord of the Rings stuff...
I got a couple of those trees for myself, and I stuck them up on my PS2 for a little holiday cheer :) Then yesterday I kicked the cable and one fell onto
my concrete floor and broke in half :( A little superglue will fix it up though I think,
for now it's just balanced on top and still looking good. The trees are awesome, very very pretty, shifting from color to color :) I got some for all of my family, they like them a lot.
Many Orthodox Jews in the 20s were strongly against Zionism, because they were waiting for Israel to be given to them by God, and the vast majority of non-Orthodox Jews were against Zionism until the 40s because they were citizens of their home countries (Germany, Poland) and had no intention of leaving. It was only when Jews could no longer live in Eastern Europe (where the majority lived before WW2) that Zionism gained any sort of acceptence in mainstream Judaism.
It's kind of like how the Palestinian Liberation Organization was only formed after Egypt realized that the Arab countries in the Middle East couldn't get rid of Israel by traditional military force.
True.
That's pretty late considering that the first wave of modern Jewish migration to Israel were students of the Vilna Gaon in the first decade of the 19th century, also early Chassidim went there with the prominent Rebbe of Vitbesk along with a large group of other Chasidim at around the same time. They were far more than 43 families of a small fringe group; in fact they were emmissaries, including prominent leaders, of both Chasidim and Misnaggedim, the two largest Jewish groups of Eastern European Jews both then and now.Which is a very antisemetic paper, regardless of it's other possible merits in British journalism.
> Which is a very antisemetic paper, regardless of it's other possible merits in British journalism.
;>)
I think you may be confusing the Telegraph with the Guardian (being American myself, I sometimes mix up the British papers too
The other required feature is that regenerative braking isn't allowed to dump power back into the power line. It has to dump it into a resistor bank, so as not to do "work" with the energy of descending riders. This is normally enabled only on the Sabbath.
Of course, these features combine to use far more energy than normal mode, so they don't comply with the spirit of the Shabbat, not to do work. Just the letter.
Frankly, Negroes don't belong anywhere outside of their native tropical central Africa. They are a primitive species who have been totally unable to adapt to the human world.
Now I don't think the US government has ever given the Palestinian Authority the kind of aid dollars they should - but the problem is the current PA is corrupt as hell and tends to divert funds for their own use at the expense of the Palestinian people. This is why the US really wanted to negotiate a peace agreement, agree on a final status that would lead to state formation, and then be able to funnel dollars to a more legitimate and stable and democratic government for the Palestinian people.
I support this, and I think a lot of American Jews (and Israeli Jews) do as well. I don't think we think that Israel is "special" (other than in a spiritual or cultural sense). The Indians and the Pakistanis have a massive ongoing border dispute over Kashmir that has nearly led to nuclear standoff in South Asia - they regularly slaughter each other's civilians and push through borders. The US government chastises both sides and encourages them to solve problems peacefully - same as they do with Israel and the Palestinian people.
The problem is that you are casting the Palestinians in a sympathetic eye because they don't have a modern, well-funded military. The problem is that such a military isn't terribly useful for countering "assymmetric" threats, which is why Palestinian terrorism continues to be a reality. So your casting it as a one-sided "pushing back of borders" and killing of civilians is pretty ridiculous. However, I think since September 11th, Americans as a whole have quite a bit more sympathetic to Israel because we understand the concept of living in fear of terrorism quite a bit better, and we understand the frustration of trying to counter a threat that can't be defeated with traditional military superiority.
Here is a bit of clarification as to the parent. First, I'd juest like to clarify that this theory is the one adopted by most conservative and reform rabbis, and at least some Orthodox rabbbis, so critiques of the reform movement are at best off-topic here. The original Chanukkah celebration had nothing to do with 8 days of oil. In the original celebrations (i.e. the Book of Maccabees), the Jews were celebrating the holiday of Sukkot (a harvest festival), which they had been precluded from celebrating earlier because the Asssyrian Greeks occupied the temple. Sukkot was one of the three pilgrimage festivals where the entire population would travel to the temple, so the temple's occupation pretty much nixed the whole holiday. Therefore, it was observed after it's liberation, and was simultanioulsy a celebration of the victory and the Sukkot holiday. This later celebration is what we now know of as the Chanukkah holiday. The Chanukkah Candelabra is called a Chanukkiah, not a Menorah, because a Menorah is 7 branched whereas a Chanukkiah, what is used an Chanukah, is 9 branched. The 9 branches came because of the 8 days, not the other way around. Sukkot, the aforementioned holiday, was an 8 day festival. The parent post got the idea right, just a bit backwards. The 8 days came first, the myth came later. As to the myth about the oil, I don't know about it's exact origins. I believe it has some textual origins, although I don't know how vague. My guess (remember this is a guess) is that it started like many traditions, in that a Rabbi began doing it, other people liked it, so they began doing it, and everyone passed it on to their children. Eventually, it spread throughout the community. I'm fairly sure that the 2BCE has nothing to do with this, but is probably something in the technical limitations of his calculations.
This is just like what they had in the old days when the Temple still stood. The miracle was that the electricity lasted for eight days.
No, he was an Israelite. Modern Judaism shares lineage with the Pharasees and later exposure to the mysticism of Babylon. Most Israelites during the time of Jesus were considered "goyim" by the ruling Pharasee tribe.
One thing this product doesn't do though... it doesn't sing the blessings for you. It should at least have a karaoke mode.
Those rules were made by people. I'd guess that originally, only olive oil was permitted, and that it took a while before candles (which were the high-tech lighting method) were allowed.
Interesting, because the book has a rather pro-Jewish slant actually.
Yawn.
A USB Mohel?
Input the parameters pertaining to the size of the infant in question and bada boom bada bing, the unguarded fan blade does its work.
No thanks. I'll pass.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
With respect to Palistinian foreign aid:
It is my understanding that the EU has given the Palistinian Authority a few billion dollars a year. Unfortunately, most of that money went to fund Arafat's palaces, terrorism, and some went to anti-Semitic text books.. i.e. (true story), in their gradeschool math textbooks, they have examples like this "if you have 10 Jews and you kill 3, how many Jews do you have left?"
The Palistinians need to make some major changes before there is any chance for peace.