Ah but you are naturally forgetting that Microsoft puts out tightly secure software, with no holes for a worm or virus to get in. Naturally, the server will be secure as there is a proven track record of Microsoft's superior securi... no, wait that's not right at all.
It would have been satire but I couldn't keep up the facade.
There is an entirely different point to be made for what you are talking about I think.
Mainly for the typical word processor do you really need that 2ghz P4, in fact for MOST office tasks do you need anything that hasnt been around since before the "interweb" was discovered by the general public.
I have had this discussion many times with office suppliers over many years. An office used to be able to run Win98 with Office 98 and have semi-professional looking documents and presentations on first Gen Celerons. Why would any newer office need anything else if they are simply word processing.
To this I think you hit the nail on the head. Layers. Windows XP is a much more expensive layer than 98 was (albeit more functional but how much of that is useful to offices that do basic wordprocessing as its most intensive task).
I think the days of programs offering much more functionality as in grammar checkers and spell checkers and what not and now its more OS and software bloat. The same computational power that used to calculate flow over complex engineering models in 1990 is now on your desktop. Do you really need that much to write a Word XP document?
I wont make what seems to be the required 512K joke, come on people you never had a typo?
But I will say that my expectations for computer hardware at this point was pretty much exceeded. The fact that I now have about 10 times as much Ram as my first computers had harddrive space I am impressed. However, since you mentioned games within the post I'll reply that my expectation for how FUN games would be at this time was sorely underachieved.
Unfortunately, the pixel pushing hogs that are modern computers have left game design to rely on the next brightest nicest looking graphical engine with most games being "unique" like all others on the market.
It's not the technology I feel let down about, its the basic design for games which for the most part has not advance nor drastically changed in 10 years really.
I think you are too quick to say that ATI should have a better Reputation than nVidia. Both companies have rampant use of these "optimizations".
nVidia likes the name 3Dmark2003 ATI likes the name Quake3
nVidia is dropping instructions ATI is dropping bits (whats that... no 32 bit precision, only 24? not quite what ARB_pixel_shader meant).
The fact of the matter is heads up comparison of these cards with future technologies can NOT be done anyhow. There is no equivalent render path between the two of them, especially when you are talking shaders. Difference in precision, whether explicit or implicit makes this impossible. Shockingly, no matter the "cheat" the one running at the lower precision usually wins. The 3Dmark2003 cheat actually allows a 32bit precision nVidia card to eek out the 24 bit ATI card.
The only reason it can be labeled as "not a cheat" is because it is a commonly accepted practice for ALL video card driver makers.
There was some controversy a while back with people noticing the string quake3 in the nvidia binaries. Nvidia was very open to state that this is not uncommon and for high demand programs they do construct specific optimization sets in the driver.
I know it sounds like cheating, but to say its a cheat is to say that an OS that optimizes its networking for the specific use of a Web Server is cheating too as it would inflate the web server performance but perhaps no other net based application.
Say what you will about the moral implications of false advertising, but to say it is cheating is to be very particular in a sea of "cheaters"
My opinion is it is not the technology that'll hold it back. Granted they wont look cinematic like the movies but really fleshing out a game to be as "rich as Tolkeins" is more a question of content, not technology. I think if done right you could have a game as rich as Tolkein's books run from a text console only. After all the books are just text too.
The problem is game makers today rely too much on the "oooh ahhhh" factor of rich graphics which are truly wonderful and not as much on content. I have a feeling the bane of this MMORPG will be the lack of content which makes it a truly tolkein world. We have had the technology to make great games for a long time, then things went all GUI.
I assume that you are refering to JIT compiling a process also used in java.
While it is true the code is compiled to native machine code before running and is not interpreted, JIT compiling is not without its drawbacks. I merely refered to certain preformance loses when using a scheme like this. In the case of JIT compiling you sacrifice an overhead at the onset of a peice of code (be it a method or what not) to improve the performance later.
As for dropping down to assembly in.NET I was unaware you could, It seemed unlikely given some of the features that.NET promised that they would offer this. If they do then good, for them. Although I cannot find a single internet source which lists using assembly language in managed C++ or c#, there are assemlies which are different and also dropping down the the.NET IL which is like assembly, but I couldnt find real assembly. Though this is not the first time I've missed something.
Will it really be any different from the way it is now?
No
Actually, it could stand to be very different. The base of.Net is on a virtual machine which for lack of non-java terminology interprets bytecodes.
While I agree.Net will not ruin or drastically change the industry, it will be tough to squeeze the same performance out of any interpreted language when compared to a peice of native code. Beleive it or not there are still games released with performance critical parts written in good old x86 assembly, an option not likely available to an interpreted language.
I think a question should be will.NET take a significant amount of the industry away from the current staple platforms?
How much playing with the cg toolkit have you done? In all but ONE of the profiles, the Cg code compiles down to STANDARDIZED interfaces eg DirectX's HLSL OR the ARB exensions to OpenGL. The ONE that it actually compiles for NVIDIA hardware is close to legacy support not likely to be useful in games considering the other options.
I'm sorry to say this but you are flat wrong on this. Cg is sytatctically equivalent to HLSL and is not "optimized" for nvidia products. Had anyone else developed this it would not meet with such stark oposition, you people are just too hungry to cry big business is keeping me down.
Meanwhile you support something that ties you to one platform, one OS AND is produce by a business which has been found guilty of monopolistic practices, but there HLSL is for the good of all.
-bort
Re:There's only ONE test of graphics anything
on
The Cg Tutorial
·
· Score: 1
This is like saying that Delphi and java will never make it for games because Carmack doesn't use them. (by the way they do make commercial games with BOTH of these)
I will say that Carmack was influential in getting OpenGL accepted to mainstream game development, perhaps. But you are truly comparing apples to oranges.
Nope, its optimized for DX and openGl's shader interfaces. So the GPU optimizations happens at the normal display driver level. It run's fine if not better on ATI's than on nVidia's cards.
All it consists of is a language which sits atop multiple interfaces to shaders.
-bort
Cg IS NOT vendor specific
on
The Cg Tutorial
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Sure Cg was developed and supported by NVIDIA but it works on a higer level than that. It compiles Programs down to either the DX shader language or the OpenGL ARB standards. The only vendor specific part is support for older hardware (NV_vertex_program extension and the like) but nothing is holding back someone from creating a profile to support ATI's proprietary extensions.
It is another layer and a nice one to boot. There is no performance loss running it on ATI's cards, infact the few demos I have written have run better on my friends radeon than on my Geforce3 by a long shot.
Quit trying to demonize nVidia for bringing some peace to the hectic world of writing shaders nine thousand different ways so some guy with an obscure video card doesn't complain.
The Music Industry is a big thing. However, my arguement to the exageration of these figures is that the music industry has supposedly taken "billions in losses". Even a behemoth like that would feel billions in losses and it would be visible. The airlines are having rough times and its obvious, it's not that they are trying to screw anyone it just seriously looks like they are in a great hurry to fix things and are making mistakes.
All the music industry has done is file suit, but the state of the industry doesnt say "we are fighting a loosing battle". If they lost billions where are the record labels that are dropping production or cutting wages to try to save the ship.
Ah, but you see the "..." actually expands to this:
Pay money to the U.S. government so that salaries can be paid to people who make laws concerning technologies they dont understand and furthermore regard as 'voodoo black magic'.
you see this is after lunch, because I have to have something in my stomach to do this, otherwise I just feel dizzy.
"DEADBEEF = Dellex eek hexted and alphex dell hexend, bethex eek hexted and eechex foke"
In the news today, 12 computer scientists die from choking to death. Apparently, their colleagues stood by and watched thinking they must surely be trying to pronounce a hexidecimal number.
We here in Bort's left brain are shocked and outraged at the blatant typo that the right brain has produced. For the record, the left brain coalition would like it known that the intended title was in fact Software Engineer. We apologize for this.
As for the right brain coalition, no doubt responsible, we have redirected all alcohol to that side and they will surely pay with their lives.
I think there are three types of people who program.
Code-Monkeys: these guys do exactly what they are thought to do: Grind out code. Usually not innovative, usually no technical achievement. Nevertheless, they'll get the job done especially if its something that they can base off other things.
Computer Scientists: These guys use code to test new ideas and methods. This is the research side, but its not always practical research. An analogy I can make is you can't a bridge without math but advanced number theory really doesnt make better bridges.
Computer Engineers: These are the practical counterparts to somputer scientists. Usually innovative but in a sense that they comstruct useful things. What an engineer makes a code-monkey will be able to replicate soon. Just like it takes an engineer to design an engine, but Joe-mechanic can rebuild one or even "modify" it to get some use out of it.
I dont want to put a negative spin on any of these as they all serve their purpose in my mind. Perhaps you will dis/agree.
Judge: Not only did you commit a crime, but you also actively tried to NOT get caught... shame on you... shame shame shame.
For all those law-abiding criminals out there, to clear up any confusion why don't you just post all unencrypted transmissions and files on slashdot. This ensures that you have many witnesses to you trying to live under societies guidelines.
I agree, this is really great. I used to love to play the Keens as well as many other games. And there are many times I've slammed down a new graphically pretty peice of trash and wished I had a classic.
The problem is companies don't want to release most of their old games because times have changed and so have operating systems. With the terrible legacy DOS support in XP for things like games you are almost forced to run them emulated in linux (dosemu, etc..). Also, no matter how much companies say "we have no support line for this, use at your own risk" you'll always get contacts asking about this and that.
In reality, these games need to be released to a team of volunteer developers when they are no longer economically valuable to the Company. Then that team can update as the times change if there is still an underground following.
OR, the obvious choice which was discussed in an earlier topics is to start making games that are fun again as opposed to yet another graphically gorgeous First-person-run-through-the-hallway-with-a-rocket -launcher-conveniently-located-at-chest-level. Not that all FPS are bad but look at the numbers... its like hitting a dust mite with a musket.
It seems to me a lot of posts deal with streaming music over 802.11b to the end user.
However, I took this to be kinda a portable internet brodcasting expirement, in that their ISP is a wireless one. Thus, just like your local radio station can broadcast from a bar during a live performance, so can these fellows. The difference being they dont have to be at a venue that came pre-wired for internet.
As a means of delivery to the end user, I agree, why complicate things with making it an internet stream when there is good ol FM.
However, as the way I saw it, its bringing some benefits that an FM station can have to the realm of an Internet station.
XP users won't even be able to collaborate equally with the 200 million Win9x users.
Gates: Johnson who is the little guy today?
Johnson: Well our older platform is still performing quite well...
Gates: Great scott!?! screw him Johnson!
On a more serious note however, the post mentions that the "rest of the world" will band together. I think the reality of the situation is that the large amount of Office users are going to have to demand this for it to really phase the goliath and maybe not even then.
I dunno I thought Vampire got a little old.. maybe it was the interface that bugged me. There were too many ways to mis click and drain your teamates blood while getting wacked in a big fight.
I have to agree though the Storytelling stuff is cool, but I think I'll wait for the freedoms that a game like Neverwinter Nights should offer. Until then Diablo2 has gotten me much more addicted than Vampire did.
Slashdot Mirror
Ah but you are naturally forgetting that Microsoft puts out tightly secure software, with no holes for a worm or virus to get in. Naturally, the server will be secure as there is a proven track record of Microsoft's superior securi... no, wait that's not right at all.
It would have been satire but I couldn't keep up the facade.
-bort
There is an entirely different point to be made for what you are talking about I think.
Mainly for the typical word processor do you really need that 2ghz P4, in fact for MOST office tasks do you need anything that hasnt been around since before the "interweb" was discovered by the general public.
I have had this discussion many times with office suppliers over many years. An office used to be able to run Win98 with Office 98 and have semi-professional looking documents and presentations on first Gen Celerons. Why would any newer office need anything else if they are simply word processing.
To this I think you hit the nail on the head. Layers. Windows XP is a much more expensive layer than 98 was (albeit more functional but how much of that is useful to offices that do basic wordprocessing as its most intensive task).
I think the days of programs offering much more functionality as in grammar checkers and spell checkers and what not and now its more OS and software bloat. The same computational power that used to calculate flow over complex engineering models in 1990 is now on your desktop. Do you really need that much to write a Word XP document?
-bort
I wont make what seems to be the required 512K joke, come on people you never had a typo?
But I will say that my expectations for computer hardware at this point was pretty much exceeded. The fact that I now have about 10 times as much Ram as my first computers had harddrive space I am impressed. However, since you mentioned games within the post I'll reply that my expectation for how FUN games would be at this time was sorely underachieved.
Unfortunately, the pixel pushing hogs that are modern computers have left game design to rely on the next brightest nicest looking graphical engine with most games being "unique" like all others on the market.
It's not the technology I feel let down about, its the basic design for games which for the most part has not advance nor drastically changed in 10 years really.
-Bort
I think you are too quick to say that ATI should have a better Reputation than nVidia. Both companies have rampant use of these "optimizations".
nVidia likes the name 3Dmark2003
ATI likes the name Quake3
nVidia is dropping instructions
ATI is dropping bits (whats that... no 32 bit precision, only 24? not quite what ARB_pixel_shader meant).
The fact of the matter is heads up comparison of these cards with future technologies can NOT be done anyhow. There is no equivalent render path between the two of them, especially when you are talking shaders. Difference in precision, whether explicit or implicit makes this impossible. Shockingly, no matter the "cheat" the one running at the lower precision usually wins. The 3Dmark2003 cheat actually allows a 32bit precision nVidia card to eek out the 24 bit ATI card.
-bort
The only reason it can be labeled as "not a cheat" is because it is a commonly accepted practice for ALL video card driver makers.
There was some controversy a while back with people noticing the string quake3 in the nvidia binaries. Nvidia was very open to state that this is not uncommon and for high demand programs they do construct specific optimization sets in the driver.
I know it sounds like cheating, but to say its a cheat is to say that an OS that optimizes its networking for the specific use of a Web Server is cheating too as it would inflate the web server performance but perhaps no other net based application.
Say what you will about the moral implications of false advertising, but to say it is cheating is to be very particular in a sea of "cheaters"
-bort
And all this time my lifelong goal was to hack the gibson using a giant Pacman.
AND NOW
you tell me there is no mega-computer that has a database consisting of glass columns with Arcing lightning between them... How boring!
hehe Arc lightning in a processor, "Bob we fried another one!"
-bort
My opinion is it is not the technology that'll hold it back. Granted they wont look cinematic like the movies but really fleshing out a game to be as "rich as Tolkeins" is more a question of content, not technology. I think if done right you could have a game as rich as Tolkein's books run from a text console only. After all the books are just text too.
The problem is game makers today rely too much on the "oooh ahhhh" factor of rich graphics which are truly wonderful and not as much on content. I have a feeling the bane of this MMORPG will be the lack of content which makes it a truly tolkein world. We have had the technology to make great games for a long time, then things went all GUI.
-bort
I assume that you are refering to JIT compiling a process also used in java.
.NET I was unaware you could, It seemed unlikely given some of the features that .NET promised that they would offer this. If they do then good, for them. Although I cannot find a single internet source which lists using assembly language in managed C++ or c#, there are assemlies which are different and also dropping down the the .NET IL which is like assembly, but I couldnt find real assembly. Though this is not the first time I've missed something.
While it is true the code is compiled to native machine code before running and is not interpreted, JIT compiling is not without its drawbacks. I merely refered to certain preformance loses when using a scheme like this. In the case of JIT compiling you sacrifice an overhead at the onset of a peice of code (be it a method or what not) to improve the performance later.
As for dropping down to assembly in
-bort
Will it really be any different from the way it is now? No
.Net is on a virtual machine which for lack of non-java terminology interprets bytecodes.
.Net will not ruin or drastically change the industry, it will be tough to squeeze the same performance out of any interpreted language when compared to a peice of native code. Beleive it or not there are still games released with performance critical parts written in good old x86 assembly, an option not likely available to an interpreted language.
.NET take a significant amount of the industry away from the current staple platforms?
Actually, it could stand to be very different. The base of
While I agree
I think a question should be will
No.
-bort
How much playing with the cg toolkit have you done? In all but ONE of the profiles, the Cg code compiles down to STANDARDIZED interfaces eg DirectX's HLSL OR the ARB exensions to OpenGL. The ONE that it actually compiles for NVIDIA hardware is close to legacy support not likely to be useful in games considering the other options.
I'm sorry to say this but you are flat wrong on this. Cg is sytatctically equivalent to HLSL and is not "optimized" for nvidia products. Had anyone else developed this it would not meet with such stark oposition, you people are just too hungry to cry big business is keeping me down.
Meanwhile you support something that ties you to one platform, one OS AND is produce by a business which has been found guilty of monopolistic practices, but there HLSL is for the good of all.
-bort
This is like saying that Delphi and java will never make it for games because Carmack doesn't use them. (by the way they do make commercial games with BOTH of these)
I will say that Carmack was influential in getting OpenGL accepted to mainstream game development, perhaps. But you are truly comparing apples to oranges.
-bort
Nope, its optimized for DX and openGl's shader interfaces. So the GPU optimizations happens at the normal display driver level. It run's fine if not better on ATI's than on nVidia's cards.
All it consists of is a language which sits atop multiple interfaces to shaders.
-bort
Sure Cg was developed and supported by NVIDIA but it works on a higer level than that. It compiles Programs down to either the DX shader language or the OpenGL ARB standards. The only vendor specific part is support for older hardware (NV_vertex_program extension and the like) but nothing is holding back someone from creating a profile to support ATI's proprietary extensions.
It is another layer and a nice one to boot. There is no performance loss running it on ATI's cards, infact the few demos I have written have run better on my friends radeon than on my Geforce3 by a long shot.
Quit trying to demonize nVidia for bringing some peace to the hectic world of writing shaders nine thousand different ways so some guy with an obscure video card doesn't complain.
-bort
This just in. The government is sueing after patenting using "One" after vehicles, thus meaning SpaceShipOne is reserved for the President.
-bort
I agree, it doesn't fit logically.
The Music Industry is a big thing. However, my arguement to the exageration of these figures is that the music industry has supposedly taken "billions in losses". Even a behemoth like that would feel billions in losses and it would be visible. The airlines are having rough times and its obvious, it's not that they are trying to screw anyone it just seriously looks like they are in a great hurry to fix things and are making mistakes.
All the music industry has done is file suit, but the state of the industry doesnt say "we are fighting a loosing battle". If they lost billions where are the record labels that are dropping production or cutting wages to try to save the ship.
Thats just my 2 billion cents.
-bort
Ah, but you see the "..." actually expands to this:
Pay money to the U.S. government so that salaries can be paid to people who make laws concerning technologies they dont understand and furthermore regard as 'voodoo black magic'.
you see this is after lunch, because I have to have something in my stomach to do this, otherwise I just feel dizzy.
-bort
This is kinda like taking pop-shots at rare or endangered species:
...
Tuesday April 15th:
wake-up
pay bills
Slashdot a living legends homepage
lunch
-bart
"DEADBEEF = Dellex eek hexted and alphex dell hexend, bethex eek hexted and eechex foke"
In the news today, 12 computer scientists die from choking to death. Apparently, their colleagues stood by and watched thinking they must surely be trying to pronounce a hexidecimal number.
-bort
We here in Bort's left brain are shocked and outraged at the blatant typo that the right brain has produced. For the record, the left brain coalition would like it known that the intended title was in fact Software Engineer. We apologize for this.
As for the right brain coalition, no doubt responsible, we have redirected all alcohol to that side and they will surely pay with their lives.
Thank you and good night
-bort's left brain
I think there are three types of people who program.
Code-Monkeys: these guys do exactly what they are thought to do: Grind out code. Usually not innovative, usually no technical achievement. Nevertheless, they'll get the job done especially if its something that they can base off other things.
Computer Scientists: These guys use code to test new ideas and methods. This is the research side, but its not always practical research. An analogy I can make is you can't a bridge without math but advanced number theory really doesnt make better bridges.
Computer Engineers: These are the practical counterparts to somputer scientists. Usually innovative but in a sense that they comstruct useful things. What an engineer makes a code-monkey will be able to replicate soon. Just like it takes an engineer to design an engine, but Joe-mechanic can rebuild one or even "modify" it to get some use out of it.
I dont want to put a negative spin on any of these as they all serve their purpose in my mind. Perhaps you will dis/agree.
cheers
-bort
Judge: Not only did you commit a crime, but you also actively tried to NOT get caught... shame on you... shame shame shame.
For all those law-abiding criminals out there, to clear up any confusion why don't you just post all unencrypted transmissions and files on slashdot. This ensures that you have many witnesses to you trying to live under societies guidelines.
-bort
I agree, this is really great. I used to love to play the Keens as well as many other games. And there are many times I've slammed down a new graphically pretty peice of trash and wished I had a classic.
t -launcher-conveniently-located-at-chest-level. Not that all FPS are bad but look at the numbers... its like hitting a dust mite with a musket.
The problem is companies don't want to release most of their old games because times have changed and so have operating systems. With the terrible legacy DOS support in XP for things like games you are almost forced to run them emulated in linux (dosemu, etc..). Also, no matter how much companies say "we have no support line for this, use at your own risk" you'll always get contacts asking about this and that.
In reality, these games need to be released to a team of volunteer developers when they are no longer economically valuable to the Company. Then that team can update as the times change if there is still an underground following.
OR, the obvious choice which was discussed in an earlier topics is to start making games that are fun again as opposed to yet another graphically gorgeous First-person-run-through-the-hallway-with-a-rocke
-bart
It seems to me a lot of posts deal with streaming music over 802.11b to the end user.
However, I took this to be kinda a portable internet brodcasting expirement, in that their ISP is a wireless one. Thus, just like your local radio station can broadcast from a bar during a live performance, so can these fellows. The difference being they dont have to be at a venue that came pre-wired for internet.
As a means of delivery to the end user, I agree, why complicate things with making it an internet stream when there is good ol FM.
However, as the way I saw it, its bringing some benefits that an FM station can have to the realm of an Internet station.
-bart
XP users won't even be able to collaborate equally with the 200 million Win9x users.
Gates: Johnson who is the little guy today?
Johnson: Well our older platform is still performing quite well...
Gates: Great scott!?! screw him Johnson!
On a more serious note however, the post mentions that the "rest of the world" will band together. I think the reality of the situation is that the large amount of Office users are going to have to demand this for it to really phase the goliath and maybe not even then.
-bort
I dunno I thought Vampire got a little old .. maybe it was the interface that bugged me. There were too many ways to mis click and drain your teamates blood while getting wacked in a big fight.
I have to agree though the Storytelling stuff is cool, but I think I'll wait for the freedoms that a game like Neverwinter Nights should offer. Until then Diablo2 has gotten me much more addicted than Vampire did.
-Bort