Re:Patriot missile -- really a "failure"
on
Can Software Kill?
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· Score: 1
it's the clueless software guys at Raytheon
Which was actually my point.
Ah, I see. Should have directed that at the guy you were replying to, as he was the one making the "clueless operators" comment. Sorry 'bout that.
Re:Patriot missile -- really a "failure"
on
Can Software Kill?
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· Score: 1
He told us that the Patriots were crap, mostly used to promote morale.
Apparently most of the pictures shown where the Patriots blew up missles were actually bad Scuds that blew up on their own, and the Patriot honed in on the heat of the explosion.
If that's what he said, he was wrong. That explaination is totally incorrect. Patriots are radar guided missiles. Explosions give off heat but don't reflect radar, so there's no possible way for a Patriot to have "honed in on the heat of the explosion". Someone is confusing infrared guided missiles with radar guided missiles and making up stories. SCUDs don't spontaneously blow up in mid air just before impact, either. Faulty SCUDs will nearly always go bad during the boost phase, if at all. What really happens is that the al-hussein (stretched, faster SCUD) missiles would come apart during reentry, their fuel tank and engine sections crumbling and acting as "false targets" near the warhead.
That's not to say, however, that the Patriots weren't crap, only that the reason is incorrect. The trouble was with the lack of effective proximity fuses. The Patriot was designed to intercept mach 2 aircraft, giving a maximum closing speed of ~mach 5 on any intercept. At this speed the prox fuse has plenty of time to verify the range of the target before detonating the warhead. But with ballistic missiles, the closing speed is much higher. By the time the Patriot PAC-1 prox fuse decided it was close enough to the target and detonated, the SCUD warhead had already gone past the Patriot. The Patriot warhead would blow up too late and do nothing more than deflect the course of the SCUD warhead slightly and it would continue on to the ground where it would blow up stuff. A good synopsis here. These problems were, however, fixed with the PAC-2 version of the patriot fielded after 1995.
Re:Patriot missile -- really a "failure"
on
Can Software Kill?
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· Score: 1
The software sent to the Persian Gulf in 1990-91 was Alpha software and the computer bug that caused the problems was known, operator error had a large part to play in the situation that lead to the strike on the Barracks in Saudi Arabia.
The warning given to the operators was "'very long run times' could affect the targeting accuracy", but they were never told what constituted "very long", nor to what degree the accuracy would be affected. I'd hardly call it "operator error" when it was Raytheon sending out a vague warning with no suggested remedies other than "wait for the patch" and "don't run the system a long time". I'd say it was more like contractor ineptitude.
Re:Patriot missile -- really a "failure"
on
Can Software Kill?
·
· Score: 1
The problem was actually one of training and clueless operators.
They still need more training.
If you follow your own dang link and read the article, it's not the operators who need training, it's the clueless software guys at Raytheon. I really wish people would stop blaming Patriot crews for faults in the equipment caused by an inept contractor.
Re:Patriot missile -- really a "failure"
on
Can Software Kill?
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
The problem was actually one of training and clueless operators. IIRC. the coordinates of the missile launcher had to be updated several times a day. The technicians went several days without doing so. A Scud flew into the area the Patriot was supposed to be protecting, but the system was so confused as to where it was that it thought it was another batteries' responsibility and did nothing. The Scud crashed into an area with Coalition troops and killed 28, the largest death toll due to a single action in Desert Storm.
Actually, if you check the link in the article, it explains all about the Patriot failoure. It was a "range gate error" caused by clock drift. The patriot was designed as a mobile anti-aircraft SAM and, as such, was never designed to run for more than a few hours at a time. The one at Dhahran had been running for over 100 hours. It was the Israelis who first noticed the clock drift problem and they reported it to Raytheon. The problem was caused by programmers who would "round off" the clock increment before storing it in order to save a couble bytes of memory. This rounding error was inconsequential so long as the system was rebooted every few hours (which a mobile SAM on the move would do), but it could easily grow to cause huge errors if the computers were left running continuously, as they were on SCUD intercept duty. Raytheon's solution was to send out a warning followed by a patch to fix the error. Unfortunately, in classic Raytheon bumbling style, the warning was "'very long run times' could affect the targeting accuracy", with no indication what "very long" was, or how much it would affect accuracy. The Alpha battery at Dhahran only ran so long because the Bravo battery was having radar trouble and Alpha was picking up the slack. The operators had no idea the range gate tracking was off by 600+ meters, otherwise obviously they'd have rebooted to fix it.
301 - Short Bus Error: someone has renamed pr0n.jpg to appdata.ini
302 - Short Bus Error: "where I put my contact list file, you stoopid machine" is not a valid filename
303 - Short Bus Error: modem you think is at COM1 is actually your mouse
304 - Short Bus Error: cuppe of beer on thombe ring
305 - Short Bus Error: this computer is turned off. hold down power button for 4 seconds to turn on
306 - Short Bus Error: you didn't finish your Kool-Ade and applesauce
Re:Considering how people flail and pound on butto
on
Hand-Powered Hardware?
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· Score: 1
Peizo electrics do the convert pressure into current (not very much) thing.:-)
Heh. Yeah, not very much. And even if they did, you'd run into the "lightning problem"-- how do you turn a high voltage, short duration spark into sustained low voltage current? I reckon you could put a huge 2.5F capacitor, but it'd weight 10x more than the gameboy!
Re:Considering how people flail and pound on butto
on
Hand-Powered Hardware?
·
· Score: 1
What about a system to redirect the downward force of the button pushing and send it to a flywheel in the device? Like some tiny levers attached to a winding mechanism
Unless you're willing to put up with mushy buttons that move.25-.75 inch with every press, all the energy you put into a mechanical flywheel system will be lost to friction and slop due to inexact tolerances within the linkage. A flywheel has to be moving pretty fast before it can be relied upon for decent power. You're better of coming up with a wind-up spring driven flywheel device than one attached to a rube-goldberg-like contraption drawing kinetic energy from button pressing.
So this leaves us with simple human error. Something as simple as a single line of code can destroy an entire project (programmers know what I'm talking about).
It could have even been some sort of physical hardware error. My father used to work for Hughes Aircraft Co. on the AIM-54 Phoenix missile program. The Navy required them to second-source some parts for the missile and named Raytheon as the source. Raytheon was (and still is) known for numerous incidents of stunning ineptitude, and this case was no exception. One of the parts was an arc-shaped metal lever with gear teeth along its edge that acted as a safety for the missile rocket motor to make sure it wouldn't fire until it dropped free from the F-14 firing it. An electric motor would spin a gear meshed with the teeth and, when it got to the end of the arc, the lever would spring free from the gear and ignite the rocket motor. Some Raytheon engineer apparently couldn't read a mechanical drawing and put one too many gear teeth on the arc. When the motor spun the requisite number of times, it would stop with the last tooth of the Raytheon made safety lever still engaged and the rocket motor wouldn't ignite. They only found the problem months later during a live-fire test at China Lake, CA, when an F-14 was firing at an F-86 drone. The missile dropped like a half-million dollar glide bomb. They were pretty pissed at Raytheon over that one. So you never know what's going to monkey-wrench things. Bad metric:standard conversions, one too many gear teeth, a bad diode that worked only long enough to escape detection; There are so many things that can go wrong.
What legitimate consumer choice do I have if I want to buy a copy of Windows? Um, I can buy it from Microsoft or... I can not buy it at all. Some choice.
What choice do you have if you want to buy a Z4 roadster? You can buy it from BMW or... you can not buy it at all. That doesn't mean BMW has a monopoly on cars. Likewise, Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on OS's. What part are you not understanding?
>The military hasn't let anyone join who hasn't >graduated high school in 10+ years.
So where have I been working for the past three and a half years? My entire division in bootcamp was all highschool dropouts without diplomas _or_ GED's.
My mistake, I meant to say "...hasn't let hardly anyone join...". Only about 10% of enlistees in the army and navy are Tier II (non-grad). Tier I (grads) only have to score a 31 on the ASVAB, whereas Tier II has to score 50. Air Force and Marine Corps don't accept ANY Tier II enlistees. My point was meant to be more along the lines of "the military isn't full of dope-smoking draftees".
Just curious: when did you find time during bootcamp to canvass your entire division as to their educational status? We rarely had time to talk to anyone outside our platoon, and never said more than two words to anyone outside our company.
That's fine and dandy...if the entire military was composed of college educated soldiers. Chances are they only graduated from high school if they even reached that far...
A high school diploma is pretty much mandatory to join the military nowadays. If you score high enough on the entrance exams you can probably get a waiver, but chances are "No diploma, no enlist". The days of choosing the military because you couldn't do anything else are over.
we should be writing control systems for our automated missile defense systems that don't suck, and putting someone a little more responsible and trained than 18 year old dropouts at the controls.
I agree that the Patriot SAM needs work, but I object to your inaccurate characterization of the crews as irresponsible, ill-trained high school droputs. The military hasn't let anyone join who hasn't graduated high school in 10+ years. Irresponsible behavior isn't treated with tolerance, and military personnel do nothing BUT train when they're not at war. Hack on the utility of the equipment all you like, but quit talking out your ass about the crews.
In at least one incident, it was because Patriot missile batteries kept identifying helicopters and planes as inbound missiles. If the operator doesn't stop it after about 10 seconds, the battery fires a missile by itself. Two harriers and at least one helicopter(I believe it had close to 30 British troops on board) were shot down that way. Nobody survived.
You're mixing up a number of different incidents and attributing them all to friendly fire from Patriots. British losses due to Patriot fire amount to a single Tornado GR3 and its two crew. Fourteen British troops died when two British helicopters collided with one another, but that certainly wasn't from a Patriot. No Harriers at all were shot down in Iraq, so I have no idea where you got that bit. Really, you should at least check your stories before getting out your broad brush and tarring peole with it.
Oh yes. The "imminent threat" that meant that we had to go to war ASAP was that he'd had WMD 15 years ago.
That, and the way they kept saying "we got rid of them all, but we don't know what we did with them". That's wht really worries me. We know he had chemical weapons before, and now they're missing. What happened to 'em? You can't just toss 'em in a landfill...
The Defense Language Institute is currently cranking out Arabic linguists like it was cranking out Russian linguists in '87 when I was there (60% Russian, %40 all other by my estimate
I learned russian there in '88 and I'd say it was more like 70-30 split. Three years later, we were rendered "mostly useless" when the Soviets cashed in their chips. That was quite a pisser. Spend 2+ years training to stop the communist hordes from pouring out of east germany through the fulda gap in a WW3 scenario, and then -poof-, the iron curtain colapses under its own weight. Once the party was over, the question of "what now" was pretty disheartening.
Uh, yes. What do you call copyright if not a government-mandated monopoly? Without copyright, Microsoft would not exist... and with copyright, no-one is allowed to compete with them in distributing Windows, under force of law.
True, but the copyright monopoly is only on distributing Windows. Not quite the same thing as a monopoly on the distribution of any kind of OS. The former allows for consumer choice and is OK, whereas the latter does not and is subject to very strict regulation. Apples and oranges, really.
I've always wondered why the rainiest areas of the country were not covered with reservoirs and catch basins.
'cause those areas don't need to save water. The areas that need water storage are usually not located conveniently close to those that don't, so then transportation becomes the issue. In some cases, preventing the water from saturating the ground in one area can make wells go dry in others, so it's not like uncaught rainfall is being "wasted".
, I work in an office where coffee is strong, and black, and if you add sugar we all know your the new guy.(and god help you if you ask where the creamer is) I just saw a movie(Hidalgo) and it has enspired me to try something, make a pot of coffee so thick you can toss a horse shoe in and it will stand up straight.
Reminds me of when I used to pull CQ duty (night watch, basically) in the army at Ft. Devens. It was the CQ's job to make the coffee for the company admin staff (sergeants and officers all). The staff always liked when I made the coffee because, instead of following the directions on the coffee can which said "8 scoops", I would shovel something like twenty scoops into the percolator basket. The stuff came out so thick that no amount of creamer would lighten its color. It was nasty stuff (I couldn't drink it) but those coffee-addict sergeants raved over it. I never did tell anyone the "secret recipe".
occurred to us that there wouldn't BE world hunger, if you people would LIVE WHERE THE FOOD IS! YOU LIVE IN A DESERT!
Funny thing is, he was dead-on right about this. Here we had relief agencies falling all over themselves to get the rest of the world to donate food (or money for food, rather) when that wasn't the problem. The problem was that they were nomadic people who would move to where food could be grown, but civil war and political borders prevented them from doing so. So all these feel-good organizations are shipping tons of grain through the middle of a civil war perpetuated by the Mengistu regime's desire to crush all Eritrean separatists. The only thing keeping Mengistu in power was a constant influx of military aid from Cuba and the Soviet Union. So really, it was just another case of Soviet imperialism, but many aid agencies had a soft spot for the old USSR, so they tended to overlook that.
Re:Considering how people flail and pound on butto
on
Hand-Powered Hardware?
·
· Score: 2, Informative
when playing Gameboys and other such devices, isn't it possible just to harness all the extra energy expended beyond that which is required to tell the device, "Yes, move up, and then left, and then..."?
oo difficult to convert energy in the form of pressure into something the device can use. This is the same reason we don't "hook batteries up to lightning rods", as many electricity novices suggest. The equipment required to convert from a megavolt spark to a sustained output at a reasonable voltage is too expensive and inefficient to make it cost effective. The energy output from button mashing isn't enough to overcome the losses you'd incur converting it from erraticly pulsed, short-throw kinetic energy to steady, usable voltage.
A citizen of USA will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national elections
On your sig though, I wish it wasn't so true, we have too many people here that have the right to vote but don't.
His sig isn't really true, though. The actual citizens who join the military and do the ocean crossing and fighting, they vote like crazy. The ones who don't vote are by and large also don't join the military.
What they paid the thief = a refund of their "profit," which makes it a loss to them since it did cost them shelve space and man hours to put it into and out of inventory.
But don't let facts stand in the way of your comment!
Purchasers of stolen goods are not entitled to reimbursement of any expenses from the rightful owner. If they want what they're out, by law their only recourse is to go after the thief.
But don't let the law stand in the way of your opinion about the facts!
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Which was actually my point.
Ah, I see. Should have directed that at the guy you were replying to, as he was the one making the "clueless operators" comment. Sorry 'bout that.
If that's what he said, he was wrong. That explaination is totally incorrect. Patriots are radar guided missiles. Explosions give off heat but don't reflect radar, so there's no possible way for a Patriot to have "honed in on the heat of the explosion". Someone is confusing infrared guided missiles with radar guided missiles and making up stories. SCUDs don't spontaneously blow up in mid air just before impact, either. Faulty SCUDs will nearly always go bad during the boost phase, if at all. What really happens is that the al-hussein (stretched, faster SCUD) missiles would come apart during reentry, their fuel tank and engine sections crumbling and acting as "false targets" near the warhead.
That's not to say, however, that the Patriots weren't crap, only that the reason is incorrect. The trouble was with the lack of effective proximity fuses. The Patriot was designed to intercept mach 2 aircraft, giving a maximum closing speed of ~mach 5 on any intercept. At this speed the prox fuse has plenty of time to verify the range of the target before detonating the warhead. But with ballistic missiles, the closing speed is much higher. By the time the Patriot PAC-1 prox fuse decided it was close enough to the target and detonated, the SCUD warhead had already gone past the Patriot. The Patriot warhead would blow up too late and do nothing more than deflect the course of the SCUD warhead slightly and it would continue on to the ground where it would blow up stuff. A good synopsis here. These problems were, however, fixed with the PAC-2 version of the patriot fielded after 1995.
The warning given to the operators was "'very long run times' could affect the targeting accuracy", but they were never told what constituted "very long", nor to what degree the accuracy would be affected. I'd hardly call it "operator error" when it was Raytheon sending out a vague warning with no suggested remedies other than "wait for the patch" and "don't run the system a long time". I'd say it was more like contractor ineptitude.
They still need more training.
If you follow your own dang link and read the article, it's not the operators who need training, it's the clueless software guys at Raytheon. I really wish people would stop blaming Patriot crews for faults in the equipment caused by an inept contractor.
Actually, if you check the link in the article, it explains all about the Patriot failoure. It was a "range gate error" caused by clock drift. The patriot was designed as a mobile anti-aircraft SAM and, as such, was never designed to run for more than a few hours at a time. The one at Dhahran had been running for over 100 hours. It was the Israelis who first noticed the clock drift problem and they reported it to Raytheon. The problem was caused by programmers who would "round off" the clock increment before storing it in order to save a couble bytes of memory. This rounding error was inconsequential so long as the system was rebooted every few hours (which a mobile SAM on the move would do), but it could easily grow to cause huge errors if the computers were left running continuously, as they were on SCUD intercept duty. Raytheon's solution was to send out a warning followed by a patch to fix the error. Unfortunately, in classic Raytheon bumbling style, the warning was "'very long run times' could affect the targeting accuracy", with no indication what "very long" was, or how much it would affect accuracy. The Alpha battery at Dhahran only ran so long because the Bravo battery was having radar trouble and Alpha was picking up the slack. The operators had no idea the range gate tracking was off by 600+ meters, otherwise obviously they'd have rebooted to fix it.
301 - Short Bus Error: someone has renamed pr0n.jpg to appdata.ini
302 - Short Bus Error: "where I put my contact list file, you stoopid machine" is not a valid filename
303 - Short Bus Error: modem you think is at COM1 is actually your mouse
304 - Short Bus Error: cuppe of beer on thombe ring
305 - Short Bus Error: this computer is turned off. hold down power button for 4 seconds to turn on
306 - Short Bus Error: you didn't finish your Kool-Ade and applesauce
Heh. Yeah, not very much. And even if they did, you'd run into the "lightning problem"-- how do you turn a high voltage, short duration spark into sustained low voltage current? I reckon you could put a huge 2.5F capacitor, but it'd weight 10x more than the gameboy!
Unless you're willing to put up with mushy buttons that move .25-.75 inch with every press, all the energy you put into a mechanical flywheel system will be lost to friction and slop due to inexact tolerances within the linkage. A flywheel has to be moving pretty fast before it can be relied upon for decent power. You're better of coming up with a wind-up spring driven flywheel device than one attached to a rube-goldberg-like contraption drawing kinetic energy from button pressing.
That's a great error message. I think I'll create a whole class of "short bus errors" on the app I'm developing for work.
It could have even been some sort of physical hardware error. My father used to work for Hughes Aircraft Co. on the AIM-54 Phoenix missile program. The Navy required them to second-source some parts for the missile and named Raytheon as the source. Raytheon was (and still is) known for numerous incidents of stunning ineptitude, and this case was no exception. One of the parts was an arc-shaped metal lever with gear teeth along its edge that acted as a safety for the missile rocket motor to make sure it wouldn't fire until it dropped free from the F-14 firing it. An electric motor would spin a gear meshed with the teeth and, when it got to the end of the arc, the lever would spring free from the gear and ignite the rocket motor. Some Raytheon engineer apparently couldn't read a mechanical drawing and put one too many gear teeth on the arc. When the motor spun the requisite number of times, it would stop with the last tooth of the Raytheon made safety lever still engaged and the rocket motor wouldn't ignite. They only found the problem months later during a live-fire test at China Lake, CA, when an F-14 was firing at an F-86 drone. The missile dropped like a half-million dollar glide bomb. They were pretty pissed at Raytheon over that one. So you never know what's going to monkey-wrench things. Bad metric:standard conversions, one too many gear teeth, a bad diode that worked only long enough to escape detection; There are so many things that can go wrong.
What choice do you have if you want to buy a Z4 roadster? You can buy it from BMW or... you can not buy it at all. That doesn't mean BMW has a monopoly on cars. Likewise, Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on OS's. What part are you not understanding?
So where have I been working for the past three and a half years? My entire division in bootcamp was all highschool dropouts without diplomas _or_ GED's.
My mistake, I meant to say "...hasn't let hardly anyone join...". Only about 10% of enlistees in the army and navy are Tier II (non-grad). Tier I (grads) only have to score a 31 on the ASVAB, whereas Tier II has to score 50. Air Force and Marine Corps don't accept ANY Tier II enlistees. My point was meant to be more along the lines of "the military isn't full of dope-smoking draftees".
Just curious: when did you find time during bootcamp to canvass your entire division as to their educational status? We rarely had time to talk to anyone outside our platoon, and never said more than two words to anyone outside our company.
A high school diploma is pretty much mandatory to join the military nowadays. If you score high enough on the entrance exams you can probably get a waiver, but chances are "No diploma, no enlist". The days of choosing the military because you couldn't do anything else are over.
I agree that the Patriot SAM needs work, but I object to your inaccurate characterization of the crews as irresponsible, ill-trained high school droputs. The military hasn't let anyone join who hasn't graduated high school in 10+ years. Irresponsible behavior isn't treated with tolerance, and military personnel do nothing BUT train when they're not at war. Hack on the utility of the equipment all you like, but quit talking out your ass about the crews.
In at least one incident, it was because Patriot missile batteries kept identifying helicopters and planes as inbound missiles. If the operator doesn't stop it after about 10 seconds, the battery fires a missile by itself. Two harriers and at least one helicopter(I believe it had close to 30 British troops on board) were shot down that way. Nobody survived.
You're mixing up a number of different incidents and attributing them all to friendly fire from Patriots. British losses due to Patriot fire amount to a single Tornado GR3 and its two crew. Fourteen British troops died when two British helicopters collided with one another, but that certainly wasn't from a Patriot. No Harriers at all were shot down in Iraq, so I have no idea where you got that bit. Really, you should at least check your stories before getting out your broad brush and tarring peole with it.
That, and the way they kept saying "we got rid of them all, but we don't know what we did with them". That's wht really worries me. We know he had chemical weapons before, and now they're missing. What happened to 'em? You can't just toss 'em in a landfill...
I learned russian there in '88 and I'd say it was more like 70-30 split. Three years later, we were rendered "mostly useless" when the Soviets cashed in their chips. That was quite a pisser. Spend 2+ years training to stop the communist hordes from pouring out of east germany through the fulda gap in a WW3 scenario, and then -poof-, the iron curtain colapses under its own weight. Once the party was over, the question of "what now" was pretty disheartening.
True, but the copyright monopoly is only on distributing Windows. Not quite the same thing as a monopoly on the distribution of any kind of OS. The former allows for consumer choice and is OK, whereas the latter does not and is subject to very strict regulation. Apples and oranges, really.
'cause those areas don't need to save water. The areas that need water storage are usually not located conveniently close to those that don't, so then transportation becomes the issue. In some cases, preventing the water from saturating the ground in one area can make wells go dry in others, so it's not like uncaught rainfall is being "wasted".
Reminds me of when I used to pull CQ duty (night watch, basically) in the army at Ft. Devens. It was the CQ's job to make the coffee for the company admin staff (sergeants and officers all). The staff always liked when I made the coffee because, instead of following the directions on the coffee can which said "8 scoops", I would shovel something like twenty scoops into the percolator basket. The stuff came out so thick that no amount of creamer would lighten its color. It was nasty stuff (I couldn't drink it) but those coffee-addict sergeants raved over it. I never did tell anyone the "secret recipe".
Funny thing is, he was dead-on right about this. Here we had relief agencies falling all over themselves to get the rest of the world to donate food (or money for food, rather) when that wasn't the problem. The problem was that they were nomadic people who would move to where food could be grown, but civil war and political borders prevented them from doing so. So all these feel-good organizations are shipping tons of grain through the middle of a civil war perpetuated by the Mengistu regime's desire to crush all Eritrean separatists. The only thing keeping Mengistu in power was a constant influx of military aid from Cuba and the Soviet Union. So really, it was just another case of Soviet imperialism, but many aid agencies had a soft spot for the old USSR, so they tended to overlook that.
oo difficult to convert energy in the form of pressure into something the device can use. This is the same reason we don't "hook batteries up to lightning rods", as many electricity novices suggest. The equipment required to convert from a megavolt spark to a sustained output at a reasonable voltage is too expensive and inefficient to make it cost effective. The energy output from button mashing isn't enough to overcome the losses you'd incur converting it from erraticly pulsed, short-throw kinetic energy to steady, usable voltage.
On your sig though, I wish it wasn't so true, we have too many people here that have the right to vote but don't.
His sig isn't really true, though. The actual citizens who join the military and do the ocean crossing and fighting, they vote like crazy. The ones who don't vote are by and large also don't join the military.
Babbage's, Funcoland, and Gamestop are owned by Barnes and Noble. Electronics Boutique is part of EB Holdings. You may remember a few years back when EB tried to buy Funcoland, but was outbid by B&N.
Purchasers of stolen goods are not entitled to reimbursement of any expenses from the rightful owner. If they want what they're out, by law their only recourse is to go after the thief.
But don't let the law stand in the way of your opinion about the facts!
Perhaps they are trolling for VC cash, in which case it should be called wallet vaccuum.