AT&T Wireless Phone "Upgrades" Aren't

An anonymous reader writes "AT&T Wireless is requiring customers in parts of California and New York and elsewhere to "upgrade" their phones and offering free replacements. The catch? In most cases the upgrades have worse features than the phones they're replacing."

Comments

No Bluetooth

[BWJones]

Yeah, there is no Bluetooth on the new phones which is proving to be quite a hassle. It is amazing how ones life becomes adapted to a technology like Bluetooth that truly works, and then to have AT&T Wireless simply say, "sorry, you have to upgrade" simply sucks.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, gotta love the fragmented wireless phone market in the USA..

I'd like to see a GSM provider try that one on its customers...

If your provider doesnt offer choice, how about you decide to pick another provider? yeah, it may cost a tiny bit more, but choice is worth a lot more.

Re:No Bluetooth

[MoonBuggy]

I may be ignorant, but don't you own the phone your provider gives you? If you take out a contract and get Phone A free, then a year later they give you Phone B as an 'upgrade' aren't Phones A and B both your property meaning that you can use the SIM card in Phone A and just eBay Phone B?

Re:No Bluetooth

[dakryx]

Nearly all of ATT phones don't use sim cards except for ones that use gprs.

Re:No Bluetooth

[LostCluster]

You own your phone, but in this case AT&T is telling these customers that if they don't trade in the phone, it won't work with AT&T anymore because the customer has a non-GSM phone, and AT&T is switching to GSM-only in their area.

Re:No Bluetooth

[ankit]

Wrong. ALL GSM phones use SIM cards. And since this upgrade is only for GSM phones operating at 1900MHz, all affected phones use SIM cards.

Re:No Bluetooth

[MoonBuggy]

It all makes sense now! I never knew US phones didn't always need a SIM. Here in the UK you always have a SIM and the handset (normally included unless you go for Pay as you Go) is yours to do what you want with. The networks are so competetive you can often sell your free upgrade and make more than the year's contract cost. The phone I have was selling for ~450GBP on eBay when I got it, but the contract including the free phone and all the SMS/MMS/Minutes/GPRS that I need only cost 300GBP for the whole year.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Once again, I am confounded by the insistance of bluetooth on every device mentioned on slashdot. Why do you want bluetooth on your phone? Remote printing? Sending addresses to other phones?

Re:No Bluetooth

[arivanov]

WTF/RTFA: all phones listed in the article are bog standard GMS phones which use bog standard GSM SIMs. Actually AFAIK there is only one phone - Siemens Xelibri (which is a prototype, not a manufactured model) which has the SIM built in.

Re:No Bluetooth

[BrookHarty]

AT&T took their time, continuing to offer popular new models that were missing the 850 MHz band, and thus wouldn't work with that part of their network.

Really blame the vendors, Nokia, Sony and Motorola. They took off blue tooth, didnt offer phones with 850. Even blackberry didnt have 850 when first out, they do now.

The phone vendors new for years that 850 was going to be used. The whole TDMA->GSM upgrade path was known years ago.

The article is total fluff, if a phone had 850 it was offered. Cingular, ATTWS, Tmobile all offer the same phones, you cant blame ATTWS for phone vendors not having 850 on every model.

Verizon has the same issue with GSM coverage, you cant take your phone over to the UK and still have it work. This is why they offer you another phone for traveling.

While the wireless coverage is getting better, why arn't the phones? Place the blame on the correct group.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

And I don't suppose the *GOAT* part of the URL is at all significant ...

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

I have one of those phones..

the only thing I dont like is the rather odd menu styles

it reminds me of reverse polish notation.. I guess thats what you get with such a obscure phone

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

While the wireless coverage is getting better, why arn't the phones? Place the blame on the correct group.

If the US operators just followed the European standards, there wouldn't be any of this bother, you would have a full range of phones to choose from.

Re:No Bluetooth

[ankit]

Dude, all GSM phones need a SIM card to identify themselves to the network. There is no way a GSM phone can work without one. As another poster posted, there are probably very few (maybe just one or two) phones that have SIM cards non-replacable by the user. But even these phones do infact have sim cards!

Your friends probably use phones that work on CDMA/TDMA.

Re:No Bluetooth

[drinkypoo]

Negative. As the sibling to your comment says, all GSM phones require a SIM card. I use T-Mobile, which uses 1900MHz GSM; AT&T and Cingular also both provide 1900MHz GSM service (my phone can see them both, never tried to hop on those networks though, if I succeeded I would almost certainly pay a mint for roaming.) The difference in the US market is that the phones are "locked" to a specific provider so you can't swap sim cards, and you have to get your data cable and an unlock utility, or pay someone to unlock your phone. These days people do remote unlocking, which means you buy the cable and plug your phone in, then you run some little program which lets them reprogram your phone over the 'net, or you can buy a "dongle" which you plug the phone into and it unlocks. These so-called computerless phone hacking tools of course have a microcontroller in 'em, so they're a computer anyway... But that's the story.

Re:No Bluetooth

[YU Nicks NE Way]

The GP is correct: ALL GSM phones have a SIM. It is a requirement of the spec for GSM that a subcriber be able to remove and replace his or her subscriber information module (SIM) and transfer it. That creates and fosters competition among the carriers, because once you have a phone, you can use it to access the network of any GSM carrier.

Re:No Bluetooth

[jlaxson]

RTFA. The phones being "upgraded" all use GSM in only one of AT&T's two GSM frequency bands. They want you to upgrade to phones that support both of the bands, for purposes of coverage. (if you can only use one of the bands, all the cell towers in the other band are off-limits to you.)

Re:No Bluetooth

[anagama]

As I understand the article, this is about some changes in protocols and the radio bands used by AT&T for its cell service. So even though you do own the affected phones, they won't work with the cell system. It would be like having a perfectly good car radio that wasn't designed to receive FM signals, only AM. Once upon a time, that sort of situation actually happened, difference being that AM stations stayed on the air. Imagine that scenario except that all the stations go FM. You get to keep the radio, and although it functions, it doesn't "work".

Re:No Bluetooth

[BWJones]

Lets see: Bluetooth headset for hands-free calling, Bluetooth for automatic hands-free talk within my Bluetooth supported car, Bluetooth for wirelessly synching my phone and Palmpilot with my G5s at work, and at home and my Powerbook when I travel.

Once you have used it, Bluetooth is hard to give up.

Re:No Bluetooth

[MoonBuggy]

I'm well aware of unlocking, providers lock the phones here too and it only costs 10GBP maximum to get them unlocked - the very shop I work in does it. If the parent of my previous post was wrong, then surely my point still stands and you can just sell off the upgrade and switch SIMs?

Re:No Bluetooth

[MoonBuggy]

Xelibris are not prototypes and do not have built in SIMs. I've used them infact, they're production models and work just the same as other GSM phones.

Re:No Bluetooth

[arivanov]

Place the blame on the correct group. You mean the FCC, right? After all it could have thought of a transition path that will move US to use the same frequencies as the rest of the world, but did not. I would not be amused if there was some Qualcom money behind this as well.

Re:No Bluetooth

[arivanov]

OK, thanks for the correction.

I would like to actually see where the F*** do you put the SIM into it. Considering its size and features in the spec the question is quite valid.

I read the the press release when it came out and after that I did not see it any phone shop. So I suspected that it remained as a prototype (or an exercise in technology). Thanks for correcting me.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

So.. ATT (US) is dropping a few obsoleted technologies (TDMA, analog cell), and ensuring that its existing subscribers can use its increasing digital network by offering a replacement handset, free of charge.

It strikes me that the original article, and a certain number of the /. posts, are a regurgitation of the 'ATT is evil and must be stopped' mantra, coupled with the 'We do not like GSM because its foreign' refrain. It would probably help if the power users would go out and do their own research, rather than blindly believing everything they read on the Internet.

Re:No Bluetooth

[ankit]

Yes, I am in the US, and I continue to stick with what I said. SIM cards are a requirement for GSM, and this is the reason why you can eaily switch between providers and phone morels on GSM. Not so on TDMA (the old AT&T system that still has many, many subscribers), or CDMS (sprint).

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

1) most of the phones that are GSM compatible in the US are the same phones as are marketed in Europe/Asia....THESE have SIM cards.

The super cheap wal-mart obtained ones I can't say anything about, I don't know what MODELS YOUR FRIENDS HAD (likely motorola?)

Re:No Bluetooth

[Uber Banker]

The whole issue of loking phones is a bit mixed. For example, at Carphone Warehouse a few months back they said Vodafone started locking their handsets, but you can walk into a phones4u and buy a brand new model contract Vodafone unlocked.

I don't think mm03 are locked, but maybe they are as I bought a mm02 contract phone from phones4u, I was bargaining over a Vodafone contract when they suggested mm02... never removed the phone from the desk though!

I am not an expert, but this has taught me the whole issue of locking on Vodafone/mm02 is a fallacy built up with them and the retailer... even if they insist the phone is locked, you can get it not locked. T-mob and Orange which use the other spectrum are similar I guess, but have historically taken locking more seriously.

In short, if the retailer tells you the phone will be locked they are doing it because they get a couple more squid... it doesn't have to be.

Re:No Bluetooth

[MoonBuggy]

They are small, but by no means the smallest (Google for the Panasonic GD55 if you want to see a really small phone). There are 8 different Xelibris available and IIRC the SIM just goes under the battery in them. It was a while ago that I used one but I'm pretty sure it just slides in.

Re:No Bluetooth

[MNJavaGuy]

There is no GSM network in the US, because according to your specs they would have to provide SIMS, and none of them does.

That's odd. By your statement, I must not live in the US since I have both a GSM phone and a SIM card provided by my cell service (T-Mobile).

Re:No Bluetooth

[nial-in-a-box]

Dude, guess what, GSM more or less means SIM card. You almost certainly don't have GSM if you don't have a SIM card. What service are you using? Many of the providers in the US offer GSM and TDMA or CDMA phones even now, though they usually fail to clearly make the distinction to their customers. I am not certain whether there is an official GSM standard, but assuming there is I would imagine it calls for a SIM card. I'm sure that if anywhere anyone went against that it would be here in the US, but I'm just saying from personal experience and from what I've seen, if there isn't a SIM card in the phone, it isn't GSM. Oh and another note: just because there is a SIM card doesn't mean that it is GSM.

Re:No Bluetooth

[MoonBuggy]

I don't even see unlocking as an issue personally. It's so cheap and easy that I just pick up the phone and either generate a code on my computer (free) or get it cable unlocked at work/at the market (~5GPB). It hasn't ever become a problem AFAICS.

Re:No Bluetooth

[EchoMirage]

Ok, you win. This has to be a terminology problem Let's reformulate: There is no GSM network in the US, because according to your specs they would have to provide SIMS, and none of them does. So those AT&T phones we're talking about are not GSMs. End of argument.

You're either incredibly foolish or a troll (my money is on the latter), but I'll reply anyway: YES there ARE GSM networks in the U.S.A. and YES every single one of them sells phones that require SIM (subscriber identity module) cards. As other posters who are actually clued in have noted, it's part of the GSM spec for a phone to have a SIM card.

There were two types of SIM cards: the original, old Type I cards, which looked like a credit card, and the newer Type II cards, which are the thumbnail-sized cards. You can see pretty pictures here. Type I cards haven't been used since the mid-90s. The last Type I-accepting phone I remember seeing was (IIRC) a GSM Motorola StarTac.

The only major GSM carrier in the U.S.A. until 3 or 4 years ago was Voicestream (Western Wireless), which became T-Mobile after the Deutsche Telekom buyout. As part of the upstart of 2.5G services here in the U.S., other companies such as AT&T and BellSouth started building up GSM networks.

You can see the "proof" that they're GSM networks by Googling for "BellSouth GSM" or "AT&T GSM." Other proof that there are GSM phones: I just took the battery off my Sony Ericsson T68i and...suprise! A GSM SIM card! Just like the ones I used to put in the back of every customer's phone back when I was a VoiceStream dealer. Just like the GSM SIM cards inside every single "next generation" AT&T phone, and every single T-Mobile phone. So forth and so on ad nauseum.

In related news, I've blacklisted you for making repeated stupid statements without taking 10 seconds to STFG.

Re:No Bluetooth

[platipusrc]

I had a Motorola GSM phone from Cingular that didn't appear to have a SIM card. Maybe it was internal, or maybe not, but it wasn't easily accessible. I now have a Samsung GSM phone from T-Mobile, and it has a SIM card behind the battery which is easily gotten at.

BTW, Sprint uses CDMA. Some of Cingular is TDMA, as is some of AT&T, and they are both moving to GSM. The move here is dependent on AT&T beginning to use the 850MHz band for GSM along with the 1900Mhz band.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

no a problem for the technically able, but a problem for the majority of he population whomay not bother to change because 'the new SIM won't work in the new phone'.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Rick the Red]

This is a GSM provider doing this to their customers. It's a switch to change frequencies (specifically, to add 850 MHz to the existing 1900 MHz). Apparantly phones with those features aren't available with 850 MHz.

Just switch to Cingular; you're all gonna be Cingular customers soon anyway.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Krusty_Klown]

My Sidekick has a SIM card and I live in the US. You sir, are a twit.

Re:No Bluetooth

[znaps]

The difference in the US market is that the phones are "locked" to a specific provider so you can't swap sim cards, and you have to get your data cable and an unlock utility, or pay someone to unlock your phone.

The UK works like that too..it's not unique to the US market.

Also, the poster whom you responded to was saying that he didn't know you could get cellphones in the US that didn't have SIM cards. Of course this is true with Sprint, Nextel etc. He didn't realise that non-GSM phones don't generally use SIM cards.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Rick the Red]

I used to work at AT&T Wireless. ankit is right; Pieroxy is wrong.

Re:No Bluetooth

[gl4ss]

there's 'operator locked' gsm phones(the ones offered for 'free' with subscriptions). however, most of the time those also have sims in them(if they're gsm). you can't just use the phone with another operators sim. the gsm phone needs a sim in it one way or another so a normal sim is quite normal sight unless the phone is made specifially for the operator.. i'd guess.

having a sim in a country where phone lockins are effectively illeagal is quite handy, as loaning a phone is quite simple(so that you still pay for the access yourself) as the sim will work with any phone around.

*some of those phones can be 'unlocked' by entering a code that is calculatable from imei/some other number.

Re:No Bluetooth

[fastgood]

It's a good bet that when your wireless company offers you an upgrade ... that you end up with less than you had going in.

At the minimum, you enlisted for 12 more months of service and will owe extra money if you quit when your original term was up.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do you get software to unlock your phone?

Re:No Bluetooth

[MoonBuggy]

Google for smartDCT4calc. It's paid software, but it's cheap and once you've paid you can unlock many different phones that you might buy.

Re:No Bluetooth

[krails]

I have a SonyEriccson T616 through AT&T. Full Bluetooth, GSM service, even GSM Data service. I have never had a problem using my VPN or SSH through their network.

If they try to force a non-Bluetooth GSM phone on you, insist that they give you the T616 or Nokia 6360... or simply dump em for T-Mobile. =)

Re:No Bluetooth

[rns3]

I have a t68i. Recently, this phone has stopped working correctly on the AT&T network. That is why they are "upgrading" to the new 226. I was able to get them to give me a 616 (which has bluetooth so I can still use my Jabra headset and sync with my bluetooth enabled Powerbook). I had to agree to two more years on my contract, and they are still sending me the 226. I just moved the SIM from my T68i to the 616 and everything is good.

Re:No Bluetooth

[MoonBuggy]

I refer you to my own post here. I paid less including a full years contract with a free phone than the selling price of the handset alone. I have checked all the details and there is no cancellation fee after the year is up and the phone is mine to do as I want with.

Re:No Bluetooth

[squiggleslash]

SIMs are part of the GSM spec. Whereas CDMA and TDMA phones need the id programmed into the ROM, you cannot possibly have seen a GSM phone with such a thing.

I've had GSM phones from AT&T, BellSouth DCS, and T-Mobile, and all three had SIMs. You may possibly be confused because until recently AT&T didn't have a GSM network, it ran a TDMA (IS-136/D-AMPS/insert name of the day) network. Phones on that older, non-GSM, standard did not, obviously, use SIMs because they weren't GSM!

Re:No Bluetooth

[Maserati]

Or Vodaphone has *started* locking phones, but unlocked phones are still in the sales chain.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

No no no. Vodafone now has a 'policy' of locking phones, but then why could I last week buy a T630 unlocked, when the T610 was 'usually' locked (over the last 6 months this was one of the 'front-line' locked phones)?

Morally corrupt business no less.

Save your comment for when you have someting informative to share, rather than spouting cr4p.

Re:No Bluetooth

[frdmfghtr]

my phone can see them both, never tried to hop on those networks though, if I succeeded I would almost certainly pay a mint for roaming.

No you won't, unless there is a T-Mobile plan that doesn't include nationwide roaming, which I have never seen. I have T-Mobile, and whenever I go down to North Carolina, I am roaming on Cingular's GSM network and have never paid a single red cent for roaming.

The only roaming I have ever paid is when I roam internationally. Then I pay many red cents.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Bander]

I'm a T68i owner in Maryland who has been subjected to this "upgrade". A customer service rep called me on Friday to see if I had received my replacement phone, and whether I had sent my T68i back to them.

I politely informed her that I use the Bluetooth feature of the T68, and without similar functionality on the replacement, it would be useless to me for day-to-day use. She responded that the T226 was a gift with no strings attached, and I was free to keep using the T68i and keep the T226 as a spare. So, at least in my case, this upgrade seems like an offer I can refuse.

Doesn't really matter. Thanks to AT&T's crappy customer service, and inability to provide global roaming on my recent trip to Southeast Asia, I'm planning on switching to a different provider in the next month or two. I was thinking of waiting until the T630 becomes available before making the switch...

-- Bander

Re:No Bluetooth

[BWJones]

Doesn't really matter. Thanks to AT&T's crappy customer service, and inability to provide global roaming on my recent trip to Southeast Asia, I'm planning on switching to a different provider in the next month or two.

Yes, I just looked into global roaming for an upcoming trip to Australia and New Zealand and AT&T absolutely cannot provide it to me for anything less than $5 a minute. So, it looks like T-Mobile is going to be getting my business.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Surreal_Streaker]

Dude, GSM phones identify themselves just fine to the network without a SIM card.
You could try it yourself if you weren't so busy talking out your ass.

1. Remove SIM from GSM phone
2. Power up GSM phone sans SIM
3. See "Emergency Only" or equivalent
4. Dial 911 (or 211) and speak with emergency services
5. Conclude the network identifies the phone.

Perhaps you were thinking about identifying a particular user to the network requiring a SIM?

Re:No Bluetooth

[jonclark]

The FCC could not allocate the same frequencies as "the rest of the world" because large chunks of the aforementioned bands were being utilized by the military, public safety, law enforcement, etc. Sorry, nice try with the corporate conspiracy and Qualcomm, but they couldn't lobby the 900 and 1800 MHz bands free if they wanted to.

Also, you might be interested in knowing the "rest of the world" does not seem to include South Korea, Japan, a lot of Central America, Canada, Mexico and much of China, among a few other places...

Re:No Bluetooth

[Mattcelt]

AT&T sent me a SMS telling me they were offering a Sony Ericsson T226 to replace my T68i.

I called the 800 number and was told that I could either use the new phone when it was sent to me (and send my t68i back), or return the new one and continue using my current one.

I am opting to continue using my T68i since the T226 doesn't have Bluetooth, a very important feature to me.

I don't know if users of other phones are being required to upgrade. The T68i is a tri-band phone (800, 900, and 1900Mhz), which may be why I'm allowed to continue using it. But AT&T is most definitely NOT forcing all of its GSM users to switch phones. I won't give up mine unless they offer a T616 or something with features comparable to the T68i.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Its Qualcomm with two m's. As I am reminded every freeking day when I forget to put it in an email.

Gawd you turned me into a spelling troll SHOOT ME.

Re:No Bluetooth

[merdaccia]

These days people do remote unlocking, which means you buy the cable and plug your phone in, then you run some little program which lets them reprogram your phone over the 'net

That's not how remote unlocking works, or at least not these days.

First off, a mobile can have various types of locks. The three main types of locks are SIM Card, Network, and Service Provider.

• SIM Card: The mobile phone will only work with the card that came with it.
• Network: The mobile phone will only work on a single physical network. I believe this precludes roaming.
• Service Provider: The mobile phone will work on the network owned by your Service Provider, and on other networks which have agreements with your Service Provider.

These aren't independent, nor are they birelational. If you have a SIM Card lock, you can only use that SIM card and therefore have a Service Provider lock. If you have a Service Provider lock, however, you can use other SIM cards from that service provider, given that you don't have a SIM Lock.

But back to your remote unlocking point. These days, many places (Google is your friend) do remote unlocking. All you have to do is send them your phone's serial number, or more accurately, IMEI number which stands for International Mobile Equipment Identifier. Needing only the IMEI number and a nominal fee, they send you a master code which you can use to remove the Service Provider lock (commonly the only lock set).

How they figure out this code I don't know, and it's probably a well kept trade secret cause I can't find anything online. I'm pretty sure they brute force the thing, considering the plethora of hardware you can buy to do this yourself.

As for the politics and ethics of the whole thing, well that's up to you. The providers lock these phones to make up for the reduced prices they offer you, and to protect their investment. On the other hand, the nice people at T-Mobile usually unlock your phone if you ask them to, especially if you're on contract or have been with them for a while. The bastards at AT&T Wireless won't do it at all, and they only sell locked phones. In which case, it's usually worth the $20 just to spite them (Seinfeld episode comes to mind).

One more thing to consider. Besides saving a ton of money on roaming if you go abroad for an extended period of time (pay as you go is much more mature abroad), unlocking also increases the resale value of your phone.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Asgard]

The bluetooth headset is a godsend. Not having a wire running from your ear down to your hand makes it much more convientant, and I don't keep pulling the earbud out of my ear every time I turn my head.

Re:No Bluetooth

[vanyel]

GSM is pretty much the standard everywhere else, but in the US, there are several standards, and GSM is the only one with SIM cards that I know of. I'd like to switch to GSM, but they're still rolling it out and it doesn't go many of the places I use my cell phone, so I'm staying on AT&T's older digital technology.

Re:No Bluetooth

[exhilaration]

How much do you play for your plan? Because I don't have SSH with my current "free" T-Mobile data plan (they charge an extra $20 for the "premium" data plan). So if I want SSH, I'd have to pay an extra $20 on top of my $40 voice plan.

Re:No Bluetooth

[tehdaemon]

"On the other hand, the nice people at T-Mobile usually unlock your phone if you ask them to, especially if you're on contract or have been with them for a while."

According to clark howard they will unlock your phone if you have been with them for 3 months.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, considering I work for Nokia (Software side though, not hardware) I'll vouch that if you have a Nokia phone it does indeed have a SIM, you just my not have found it. There is no such thing as a GSM phone without a SIM.

Re:No Bluetooth

[grahamsz]

This isn't always correct.

My fiancee has had two phones with T-Mobile (US West)/Voicestream which I've managed to put other sims into without hitting any locking problems.

Similarly I got a Samsung S300 from T-Mobile (UK) which works fine with my Orange (UK) and T-Mobile (US) sim cards - although T-Mobile (UK) are ademant that this is not the case.

Perhaps T-Mobile UK and US use the provider codes such that the sim card lock treats them as the same network, but the UK sales rep told me this was not the case.

I used to have a T-Mobile UK pay as you talk phone, and that was definitely locked to t-mobile uk.

You can also sell locked phones on ebay although they dont have the same value as unlocked ones.

Re:No Bluetooth

[JiggsJedi]

I used to work for AT&T Wireless. ALL GSM phones require a SIM card (Contains your Home SID, ICCID, MDN aka your phone#). TDMA phones require no SIM as they have an EEPROM built-in to store the NAM - Numerically Assigned Module (containg Home SID, ESN, MDN).

One multi-band phone (that is TDMA/GSM capable) actually requires a special SIM card for the dual functionality. This SIM module contains the EEPROM equivalent for the TDMA programming of the phone separate from the GSM side of the SIM. This is the Sony T26U (it also utilizes Analog towers too). This a true GSM phone with a TDMA overlay. The Siemans S46 has a built in ROM and uses a SIM, this is a TDMA phone with a GSM overlay.

But all GSM phones require a SIM card, this is not only a spec for the GSM network, but if a GSM phone (assuming multi-band, ie. Siemans S46) is running without a SIM, it would only run in TDMA mode, and if not a multi-band, it would not complete its "power up" to an operational state; it would error and demand a SIM to be entered. The Sony T62U will not function without a SIM.

Most GSM phones are NOT multi-band. They would therefor require a SIM. Multi-band phones generally don't come with the "eye candy" that other phones do (ie. Cam, Colour, Blue Tooth). These are more for people who need a phone to be a phone all the time (best coverage over multiple networks) and not a toy.

For a little insight... Thanks to LNP or line number portability there is now an MIN/MDN combination within the HLR (Home Location Registry). The MDN is your Mobile Dialable Number but you also have a MIN which is the Mobile Identification Number (or Routing Number). Some of you AT&T customers may have seen on your TDMA phones you manually programmed a number into your phone that was not your wireless number. This is what allows the porting. People dial your "phone #" which goes to the company who owns your number range (from 0000-9999), who have that number cross referenced with the your current carrier. They then send your call to the carrier your are currently with and your carrier then address' your phone by an assigned routing number (and it is a number in a range they currently own!).

Example: You are with Sprint from 555-0000 and move to AT&T. Your phone is programmed with your ROUTING# 555-1234. You can place calls, but not receive them. Your old phone is still fully functional, so you can RECEIVE/PLACE calls there). AT&T initiates a port request to Sprint. They send Sprint a request with your Name/Addr/Cell#/Acct#/. Sprint setups the link in their systems to Switch/Forward your calls to AT&T. Once the link on Sprints end is completed that allows INCOMING calls to move from Sprint to AT&T and through their switches and to your cell phone via a cross reference to your assigned routing#. Your Sprint account is also closed at this point and your old phone stops working. But ALL your incoming calls go to the carrier who owns your number, and is then sent to your current carrier. This is transparent with GSM as all programming is done Over the Air.

If you have a routing number in your phone, and you call it; you will get someone else as routing numbers are actual phone numbers, but are internal only. All numbers are now used twice. Once as a link from phone to network (routing#, internal, dynamic), and once as a link between network and the world (dialable#, external, static). With the way this system works, they all started with your MIN==MDN, but when you change carriers and as more and more inter/intra-company ports are setup, your routing# will be given to someone else, and will most likely never be a match to your dialable# again.

Your phone# only goes as far as the company who owns it.

Just my 0.02. Jiggs

Re:No Bluetooth

[arivanov]

Err... Can you read.

I said transition path, not immediate allocation and I meant transition path, not immediate allocation.

In 1995 GSM frequencies were used for military, public safety, etc in half opf the world, including many European countries. Their radio authorities helped broker a deal and move off military somewhere else. Example - the entire ex-Warsaw pakt which used 900 for military.

The FCC did not and it never ever made an effort. Also, some of the countries you are pointing at do not have their own Radio allocation schemes. They simply copy the american one and they have agreements to do so. So it is again the FCC.

Anyway, get a clue. You need some

Re:No Bluetooth

[Subliminal Fusion]

You're wrong about there not being phones with those features that work on the 850mhz band. The T616 (SE's upgrade to the T68i) would be the logical upgrade, but instead, AT&T is calling the T226 an "upgrade" when in fact, it is only newer and supports the 850 band. It has fewer features and worse battery life. That's the whole issue. RTFA.

Re:No Bluetooth

[earthloop]

Usually remote unlocking doesn't require any extra hardware at all. The process involved requires feeding the IMEI (international mobile equipment identity, get by entering *#06# on your handset) into an application that runs an algorithm. The output of which will be valid unlock codes, as supplied by network/manufacturer when you pay for them.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse yet, if you read the small print, by upgrading your renew your contract for another year!

Re:No Bluetooth

[vrai]

Which model do you have? I was under the impression that all Nokia GSM models use SIMs. Certainly all non-US ones do.

Re:No Bluetooth

[pommiekiwifruit]

My Sim is a Type I that magically became a type II, through the power of a cookie cutter. I was impressed that that was all it took to change it...

Re:No Bluetooth

[Nick_dm]

>>At least, not one I can easily get at

Most phones don't have special slots or anything, you have to open the phone up to get at the SIM card , often in the battery compartment. You ought to still be able to remove it though. Most phones aren't decided with SIM swapping as a super simple feature, just something that is there if you need it.

Re:No Bluetooth

[cuban321]

Really because I'm sitting here looking at my Girlfriend's Nokia phone and under the battery is.... what's this?? a SIM card?

Interesting, she has TMobile as well. Just because you can't find it doesn't mean it's not there...

Re:No Bluetooth

[bhtooefr]

Actually, Sprint phones have a SIM port that is VERY accessible (especially the Nokia 3588i), and Nextel, though not GSM, DOES use a SIM card - at least both the i50sx AND the i60c...

Re:No Bluetooth

[bhtooefr]

Example: You are with Sprint from 555-0000 and move to AT&T. Your phone is programmed with your ROUTING# 555-1234. You can place calls, but not receive them. Your old phone is still fully functional, so you can RECEIVE/PLACE calls there). AT&T initiates a port request to Sprint. They send Sprint a request with your Name/Addr/Cell#/Acct#/. Sprint setups the link in their systems to Switch/Forward your calls to AT&T. Once the link on Sprints end is completed that allows INCOMING calls to move from Sprint to AT&T and through their switches and to your cell phone via a cross reference to your assigned routing#. Your Sprint account is also closed at this point and your old phone stops working. But ALL your incoming calls go to the carrier who owns your number, and is then sent to your current carrier. This is transparent with GSM as all programming is done Over the Air.

If you have a routing number in your phone, and you call it; you will get someone else as routing numbers are actual phone numbers, but are internal only. All numbers are now used twice. Once as a link from phone to network (routing#, internal, dynamic), and once as a link between network and the world (dialable#, external, static). With the way this system works, they all started with your MIN==MDN, but when you change carriers and as more and more inter/intra-company ports are setup, your routing# will be given to someone else, and will most likely never be a match to your dialable# again.

Your phone# only goes as far as the company who owns it.

So, let's say you have 123-555-0000 with Nextel. It ports in a couple days to your AT&T phone with a MIN of 123-555-1111. You get fed up with AT&T in a week, and switch to, say, Sprint, and get a MIN of 123-555-2222. So, if what you're saying is right, it DOES port from Nextel to Sprint, not AT&T to Sprint, right? That must explain why it took 12 hours for a former Nextel number to port, when a new AT&T number (MIN = MDN) took two weeks, and then we canceled it...

Re:No Bluetooth

[bhtooefr]

iDEN, Nextel's protocol, also supports SIM cards. I think Nextel is actually a hybrid iDEN/GSM network, and when you're not in the US, you have to obtain a GSM phone that will accept a Nextel SIM (Nextel sells one for $300).

Re:No Bluetooth

[bhtooefr]

Actually, you're a bit off here. Think of it like this:

AT&T has GSM 1900 (think AM radio in your analogy). They want to add GSM 850 (FM) for some reason, and all new towers will be GSM 850. However, rather than convert the 1900 towers to 850, they are ADDING 850, making it more widespread (and popular).

Re:No Bluetooth

[felicity]

I had the same concern when I got a notification about the upgrade. I ended up calling them to say I didn't want the new phone, but they told me that there was actually no requirement to send the old phone back and if I wanted to keep the new phone in case the t68 died or something.

Re:No Bluetooth

[volkris]

And yet this still as nothing to do with Qualcomm...

Re:No Bluetooth

[CharterTerminal]

I bought one, but I'm having trouble finding a battery charger that will fit that port.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Ben Hutchings]

SIM card slots are usually underneath the battery. If your SIM was pre-installed you'd never need to know about it.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Ben Hutchings]

AFAIK Cellnet/O2 and Vodafone have never locked phones sold together with pay-monthly accounts, but the other operators do. All the UK operators lock phones sold with pre-pay accounts.

Re:No Bluetooth

[Ben Hutchings]

iDEN is a Motorola protocol for which Nextel (partly owned by Motorola) is the only US operator. It is somewhat based on GSM and perhaps it incorporates the same authentication protocols.

Mmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I would say getting a phone that will be able to work is a pretty big upgrade.

Re:Mmmm

[Jeff DeMaagd]

The problem is that AT&T sold defective phones. And there's any surprise that the fix eliminates features people paid money for?

How would you like it if Ford sold Mustangs that performed much worse than expected, and as a fix, gave you a Pinto as a replacement?

Re:Mmmm

[k31bang]

kind of depends on which pinto i was given ;-)

"Free upgrades"

[KD5UZZ]

In my area AT&T wants me to update my (TDMA) phone to a GSM phone...and in the proccess I loose about 60% of my home coverage area. Sound good to you? I don't think so. I switched from SprintPCS to AT&T BECAUSE of AT&T's coverage. I fear the day my phone dies, maybe by then the GSM coverage will be better in my area.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[moderators_are_w*nke]

I live in the UK. GSM has been pretty much all there is for years now, which is great, as it works pretty well. A new provider, 3 has come along and setup a new network offering football highlights and video conferencing and next to zero coverage. However, all their phones are backwards compatible with GSM. Why can't AT&T offer you a GSM phone that falls back to TDMA (whatever that is?). To everyone out there who's being forced into geting a new phone, get a Nokia 7250i. They're great (but no bluetooth - not that I can think of a use for it anyway).

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Neophytus]

i have a 3310

it has 3 main features
1) sends and recieves phone calls/texts
2) stores names of people whom i contact using feature 1
3) game of snake for when i'm not using 1) or 2) and am bored

Re:"Free upgrades"

[moderators_are_w*nke]

I used to have one just like it, a 3210. IMHO, the 3210 is the best phone Nokia have ever made. Mark

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Anonymous Coward]

the uk is, what, about the size of new york state? that's easily small enough to saturate with GSM towers. the us is, what, about the size of the us? it's difficult to cover everywhere with GSM. when you fall back to TDMA, you might as well not have service at all, you can hardly have a conversation between the dropped calls and static. that's why AT&T wants to upgrade everyone to GSM. they their customers will stop complaining about poor connections.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Anonymous Coward]

The service offered by 3 is not GSM it is WCDMA. Verizon and Sprint offer CDMA-2000 service in US.

The problem of ATT and Cingular are not over yet , they will soon have to upgrade to WCDMA to compete with Verizon . Then Cingular subscribers would require phone which do TDMA/GSM/WCDMA in 850 & 1900 bands . Its going to be a mess again trying to get these terminals.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[man_ls]

TDMA is time division multiplex architecture (I think.)

It's a 2.5G technology allowing for some serious latency and correction for doppler shift and almost 1.2 seconds of delay between packets, fairly well.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[MoonBuggy]

Ugh, the 7250i is overpriced and horrrible compared to the Sony Ericsson T610. The 7250i has a screen about half the size, 4096 colours compared to 65,000, no bluetooth and poorly designed Nokia keys rather than standard ones. For those priveledges you'll pay at least 20 more for the 7250i.

I do know what I'm talking about - I've used both extensively in the course of my job and the 7250i is only being bought because people have the irrational desire to own a Nokia despite their inferior build quality and specifications. For budget-mid range phones I'll concede that the Nokias aren't bad, 3310 is cheap and solid and the 3100 is an OK colour screen phone for not too much cash. Anything with a camera or a Smartphone you should look to other brands. While Motorollas used to be horrible, the new V300, V525 and V600 are really nice. The Sony smartphones (P800/900) are amazing pieces of kit and if you can afford one you should jump at it.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Daniel_Staal]

The problem, at least from my reading of the article, isn't that they can't offer phones that use both, but that they haven't. Even while they have been transitioning their connections on their end...

(Of course, there are other problems too, but this is the one relevant to this question.)

Re:"Free upgrades"

[BrookHarty]

Why can't AT&T offer you a GSM phone that falls back to TDMA

Because AT&TWS doesnt make phones. ;)

Same reason Verizon doesnt have GSM phones, different technology, and phone vendors dont make them.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[billbaird]

TDMA is time division multiplex architecture (I think.)

Close...but Time Division Multiple Access & CDMA is Code Division Multiple Access

--Bill

Re:"Free upgrades"

[arivanov]

you a GSM phone that falls back to TDMA - Such thing does not exist as a commercial product AFAIK. It may exist somewhere in the lab or in small series, but I have yet to see one.

However, all their phones are backwards compatible with GSM - It is more complex than that. They are dual or tri band phones. 1-2 bands are GSM and they can roam onto GSM networks if there is no 3G available. More importantly 3G and GSM have been designed to coexist and have working handover and interworking which is not the case for GSM and any of the american homebrew systems. In btw - I would not call 3G and GSM compatible. There is a defined mapping and interworking defintition for most features. It looks compatible from a luser point of view. Internally - hmm... do not think so... Still end result is that you can easily build a hybrid phone which is not the case for GSM+{whatever US homebrew we are talking about}

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Internet_Communist]

I don't have a link to show, but I am positive there are phones that support both GSM and TDMA. They aren't backwards compatible, though, so it's basically like having 2 phones in one. There's also dual band and tri band GSM phones which most likely aren't even effected by this whole upgrade mess (mine isn't.)

Re:"Free upgrades"

[red floyd]

I switched from SprintPCS to AT&T BECAUSE of AT&T's coverage

Funny... I switched from ATTWS to Sprint for the exact same reason.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[NDeans]

WRONG! There are three phones currently available that have BOTH GSM and TDMA! Actually two of them even include analog AMPS. They are: The Sony-Ericsson T62u - GSM 850/1900 w/GPRS TDMA 800/1900 AMPS 800 The Nokia 6340i - GSM 850/1900 TDMA 800/1900 AMPS 800 and The Siemens S46 - GSM 900/1900 w/GRPS TDMA 800/1900 So yes, there are ways to have your cake and eat it too, with GSM and TDMA. These phones are known as GAIT phones, and will give you the best coverage possible. Currently AT&T Wireless only sells the SOny t62u and the Siemens s46. Cingular sells the 6340i. If there are any more questions feel free to ask.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[po8]

My Siemens S46 does both GSM bands and both TDMA bands. It gets pretty good AT&T coverage in rural Oregon, which is saying something. Cheap, too, and works as a dataphone and web browser. Unfortunately, no high-end functionality: camera, etc. are lacking, and it's monochrome.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[doormat]

TDMA = Time Division Multiple Access

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/TDMA.html

Re:"Free upgrades"

[EchoMirage]

Why can't AT&T offer you a GSM phone that falls back to TDMA (whatever that is?).

They do. The Siemens S46. Great phones! Major travellers carry them (the editor of a major magazine's international bureau, for one example that I know off the top of my head).

BTW To pick nits, GSM doesn't fall back to TDMA. GSM is a TDMA-based network. TDMA is an architecture, and GSM is a specification.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Anonymous Coward]

>> and in the proccess I loose about 60% of my home coverage

HOW MANY Slashdotters can't spell "lose"?

Please return to 2nd grade immediately.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[GAVollink]

The internal architecture of a phone that runs GSM is vastly different from TDMA. A phone would literally have to be half again as big (were talking the size of a NexTel [Motorola iDen] phone). Basically, (at the parent post is getting to) these are not marketable.

Having set up AT&T wireless for my entire company, the GSM and TDMA billing systems are also completely different. I don't think this was on purpose, I just think that nobody bothered integrating the two systems when they initially set up... with a company as big as AT&T WS - will probably never happen

Final thought, TDMA still has a much larger coverage area than GSM in the US. GSM has coverage in all major metropolitans, but the smaller cities and outlying suburbs are often not yet serviced by reliable GSM signal. Until this changes... I can't have my company switch to GSM. And with problems like this, I'm glad I haven't done so for more than just that reason!

Re:"Free upgrades"

[aaarrrgggh]

Please provide a link for a multi-protocol AT&T phone; as far as I know they don't have any... they discontinued that feature at least four months ago.

My new "upgraded" phone even lacks basic functions like the Abc (title text) capitalization! It's really crap, but unfortunately the GSM coverage is so bad that it won't work for my work.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Anonymous Coward]

Nokia 6160. Word.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. If you're familiar with computers, the best analogy I can make is that Sony Ericssons are like Apples; Nokia is the Microsoft of the cellphone industry. Sony Ericsson even has its own Maclike cult (which, to me, is an indication of quality).

Re:"Free upgrades"

[NDeans]

Here are links to BOTH phones on AT&T's site:

Siemens S46 and the Sony Ericsson t62u

They have not discontinued that feature. Also you may wish to call 611 or 1-800-888-7600 and ask one of the CS reps about the Multi-Band plans.

For someone who sounds very frustrated, it doesn't seem like you have _really_ researched the problem.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[S3D]

I'm not so sure about NOkia 6600 vs P900 , though I agree about 7250. P900 cost now almoste twice as Nokia 6600, but I'm not sure it's twice better. The biggest adavntage of P900 is a big screen, but it's CPU isn't powerful enouth to generate even complicated full-screen 2D picture, not speaking about 3D. By price/performance ratio I think Nokia 6600 about the same or better P900 (of cause after Nokia fix all the bugs )

Re:"Free upgrades"

[MoonBuggy]

P900s do not cost twice as much, they're about GBP450 compared to GBP330 for the 6600. I own a P900 myself and would not in a million years swap, even if you offered me a 6600 and 200 cash in exchange. I can happily manipulate 640x480 pics in the P900's paint program so I don't know what you mean about it not being fast enough for fullscreen images. The P900 uses a touchscreen and has better software available, which is a very big plus. The one advantage I do see of the 6600 is the standard memory card rather than being tied to Sony memory sticks.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Heywood Yabuzof]

I have the 3360 and those three features are the ones I use more than any others. By far.

Re:"Free upgrades"

[Ben Hutchings]

TDMA stands for Time Division Multiple Access and is used by many cellular radio protocols including GSM. What is usually meant by "TDMA" in the context of US cellular telephony is IS-136 aka D-AMPS which is a 2G protocol designed as a convenient step up from AMPS. It fits 3 digital channels into a 30 kHz AMPS channel using TDMA.

N-Gage?

[Mr.Dippy]

Anybody see that the N-Gage phone is on the list. Didn't this pseudo phone just come out like 4 months ago?

Re:N-Gage?

[moderators_are_w*nke]

Don't think many people bought one. As a phone, its too bulky to fit in your pocket, and as a portable games console, its not much cop because you have to dismantle the thing to play the games.

Its probably not too much of a problem.

And the circle of deception moves on....

[bgreg03]

in other news: music cds are still selling for 12 dollars apiece. well whaddaya know, looks like ATT knows its business rules now

My favourite AT&T Phone feature

[hendersj]

Is the one where it disconnects randomly in supposedly good-coverage areas.

No Camera!?

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG! They want me to use a phone with no camera! How can that be? How does a phone even work if it doesn't have a camera? Next thing they'll want me to buy a refrigerator with no DSL or a car with no DVD player!

Re:No Camera!?

[GeorgeH]

For anyone who thinks that camera phones are useless, my anectdote is being able to email pictures of my car's accident to my insurance agent while still at the scene of the accident. She then changed her mind and decided that I really couldn't drive a car with that front end and they sent a tow truck.

Re:No Camera!?

[lucifuge31337]

For anyone who thinks that camera phones are useless, my anectdote is being able to email pictures of my car's accident to my insurance agent while still at the scene of the accident. She then changed her mind and decided that I really couldn't drive a car with that front end and they sent a tow truck.

#1) Your agent doesn't make those decisions. The insureance company adjuster does.

#2) Get a real insurance agent, or learn how to speak in a manner that gets you what you need/want from VENDORS that you are PAYING for service.

Take care of #2, and easily transmitted photos are no longer a necessity. Besides...who cares? Call a two truck and get towed. When the adjuster sees the car later, they will know that it wasn't drivable and the bill gets paid.

If any of the above isn't true, you might as well be dropping your pants and backing into your insurance agent's office. Once again: YOU pay THEM. They are supposed to be servicing you, not the other way around.

Re:No Camera!?

[G-funk]

Erm, that doesn't mean camera phones are cool, it just means you need to change your insurer.

Re:No Camera!?

[GeorgeH]

That's not exactly the best time and place to negotiate a better deal on car insurance.

"Hello, I wanted to get insurance. Pre-existing problems? Uhhh...."

Re:No Camera!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Get off the phone and maybe you wouldn't be in a car accident.

Re:No Camera!?

[GeorgeH]

You seem to have problems discerning cause and effect, or even normal time in general. I can't take a picture of an accident that was cased by taking a picture of the accident. That's called a paradox, and I don't think phones with that feature are coming out until next year. And then, only in Japan and Finland.

so where is the catch???

[stonebeat.org]

The catch? In most cases the upgrades have worse features than the phones they're replacing."

That is no catch. Heck some software vendors force you to upgrade, force you to pay for the upgrade, and upgrades have worse features than the original software. ;)

Re:so where is the catch???

[Anonymous Coward]

When you subscribe to a service like this, you get into trouble because you are then attached to the provider, and depend on them. I would really prefer to be able to pay a one-time fee and be done with them. Of course, I don't have a cellular phone, and don't have much use for one, but the same is true of many types of services, I think.

Re:so where is the catch???

[macmastery]

Heck some software vendors force you to upgrade, force you to pay for the upgrade, and upgrades have worse features than the original software. ;)

SOME!?!?

Free replace?

[Maljin Jolt]

I think all you customers should pay some money for those downgrades. Replacing process surely have some administrative costs, taken from pockets of poor shareholders.

War is peace. Freedom is slavery.

[JessLeah]

Downgrades are upgrades.

(On a more serious note-- hey, if Microsoft can define 'repackaging old Apple, Xerox and Unix tech for the masses' as 'innovation', then sure, a downgrade can be an 'upgrade'. Businesses lying is nothing new.)

Seen this

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got the Nokia 6340i and it's tri-band and has an IR modem for my laptop. Never dops a call and I can surf the web with my laptop while I'm driving. It's not color, it's a good size to use as a phone, and I don't have it internet enabled. Going forward, I see no replacement - I'd really like to keep the IR coupling and maybe add a camera. This is it for me. Not because AT&T goofed, just because the features that I want will no longer be produced in a single unit without paying out the ass.

Re:Seen this

[Anonymous Coward]

I can surf the web with my laptop while I'm driving

the Darwin Awards may have yet another candidate on its list..

Re:Seen this

[Zeppelingb]

and I can surf the web with my laptop while I'm driving

So you're the guy who almost hit me today!

This happened to me

[GeorgeH]

I'm in Ann Arbor Michigan and had AT&T service with my T68i. Last year I had problems with dropped calls and my service meter would go from 5 bars to 0 when I would try to make a call. I got my handset replaced twice and it seemed to more or less alleviate the problem. This winter things got worse and worse.

Finally I got fed up and switched to T-Mobile. I got a nice phone for $0, and get unlimited wireless web usage for $10/mo (which got me 4 megs on AT&T). Getting my number transfered from AT&T to the new account took an 11 minute phone call and 6 hours to process.

Most importantly my calls aren't having the same problems, and I can actually use my phone again.

The irony is that between the time I called to switch my number and the time that the number switched I got an SMS saying that they were sending me a new (bluetoothless, underfeatured) phone for free. Now I'll have two to put up on eBay :)

Re:This happened to me

[KD5UZZ]

Was it a TDMA phone? If so, I may be interested in buying it... let me know when you put it up on ebay.

Re:This happened to me

[arivanov]

my service meter would go from 5 bars to 0

Bwahahahaha.... Beacon on one frequency (possibly one band) and data channels on another. So your phone RACH-ed on 1900 and got told to use 850 in the immediate assignment. So if you are with a single band phone you just got stuffed...

This happens in EU as well (though not so often). Basically you must have a phone that covers all local bands for it to work reliably. If it is a single band you may get stuffed because your operator have got a licence mainly in one band and has minimal capacity in the other which they use only to push consumers into the "band proper".

Re:This happened to me

[GeorgeH]

I'm pretty sure the T68i is tri-band...

Re:This happened to me

[GeorgeH]

Sorry, GSM on all three phones. I'll probably wind up unlocking one of the AT&T ones to use as a backup.

Re:This happened to me

[inquisitor]

Yeah: by tri-band, the phone manufacturers mean 900/1800/1900 (the former two are used in Europe and the rest of the world; in the UK, O2 and Vodafone use 900, while T-Mobile and Orange use 1800).

It looks like the US, never willing to do anything the same way as any other country does it (like, in fact, 1900MHz GSM), is now introducing yet another GSM band at 850MHz in order to make the mobile phone manufacturers' lives harder. It's their loss.

Re:This happened to me

[/dev/trash]

unlimited wireless web usage

There is no such thing as 'unlimited.'

Re:This happened to me

[pantherace]

You work for sprint?

Re:This happened to me

[/dev/trash]

Nope. Just try this. Every day around lunch time, skip the food and download stuff for the entire hour. Each day increase your downloading ( viewing whatever). Get back to me in a month.

Re:This happened to me

[ratsnapple tea]

Sorry dude, you're wrong--T-Mobile offers free, unlimited internet access through GPRS, even on the cheapest plans. I've been using it for months (browsing on my computer via a Bluetooth connection) and haven't gotten charged a penny for it. Weird thing is the settings still all reference Voicestream (e.g. APN is wap.voicestream.com). Works great though.

yours

Re:This happened to me

[ratsnapple tea]

Uhh, unless I missed the joke...? :)

Re:This happened to me

[kruczkowski]

The FCC will not allow the european bands. I would not be suprised if this is a tactic to control the US market and not allow a buch of european phones to be sold behind the providers backs.

Upgrades = downgrades

[AtariAmarok]

Too often, upgrades really mean downgrades. I was recently forced to "upgrade" my Nokia cell phone to a "newer better" model.

The newer model as the number keys laid out in converging diagonal lines, instead of straight up and down like the old one, so I have to think about and hunt for each number key. I guess the standard phone-button layout was just not good enough for Nokia.

Re:Upgrades = downgrades

[MoonBuggy]

That's only Nokia. The other brands have been consistently innovating and improving with the greatest percentage of their range.

Re:Upgrades = downgrades

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

I wish phone manufacturers would design a phone with the number keys laid out like a standard numpad (789, 456, 123). I'd pay good money for a phone like that.

Re:Upgrades = downgrades

[NeMon'ess]

Why is the numpad reversed from telephone pads? Which came first and why don't numpads put "1" at the top anyway? Telephones put the "0" below the "789" and most people deal with it just fine. Considering the row of most keyboards above the letters put the "0" next to "9"...

Re:Upgrades = downgrades

[NeMon'ess]

answered my own question thanks to google. see here

Re:Upgrades = downgrades

[NeMon'ess]

anyone know if keyboards in other countries such as those who read right-to-left or top-to-bottom position the numbers differently?

Re:Upgrades = downgrades

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

Very interesting, and also explains why ATMs have their numpad upside down. I think either standard would be equally hard for a new user, and I'm just more used to my PC numpad. But it can be confusing with two standards, maybe someday they will standardize on one or the other. :)

Not so bad

[PtM2300]

AT&T is attempting to do good with this. I believe the "upgrade" phones run at 850mhz, providing better service to the areas the "upgrades" are offered. They're trying to offer better service to their customers without losing a lot of money on giving away expensive phones.

standardization

[yulek]

well, the way at&t is doing it definitely sucks (i guess i'm glad i switched to Sprint last year when LNP kicked in but i'm about to be meta-hypocritical). but their reason for forcing these changes is a good one: standardization, something the cel phone industry has been terrible at (at least in the U.S.).

Re:standardization

[jrumney]

Standardization with what? If they were worried about standardization, they would have used 900MHz so everyone that already has triband phones can keep using them, and not have to upgrade to quad-band phones to get decent coverage everywhere.

Nokia 5165.

[Jason1729]

The article lists a lot of nokia models including the 3650 which is a minor improvement on the 5100 series, but it doesn't mention the 5100 as being replaced. I have a 5165 on an AT&T plan in Seattle (one of the affected areas).

Jason
ProfQuotes

Re:Nokia 5165.

[rwoodford]

That's a TDMA phone and is not affected by this 'upgrade'.

I like the car DVD with windshield projection

[AtariAmarok]

I like the car DVD system that includes the windshield video projector, so I can watch movies like "Along Came Polly" while driving. It sure beats anything I'd see on the road in front of me.

Re:I like the car DVD with windshield projection

[clickety6]

I like the car DVD system that includes the windshield video projector, so I can watch movies like "Along Came Polly"

My God, man, isn't there enough carnage on the roads already!!??!!

AT&T Wireless?

[Cyno01]

Weren't they bought by SBC not too long ago? Is this "upgrade" because they're becoming Cingular, which is GSM?

Re:AT&T Wireless?

[LostCluster]

The reason why AT&T Wireless was so attractive to SBC/Cingular is because AT&T already started building out a GSM network and were already comitted to converting their customers too.

This is retirement point for the non-GSM AT&T networks in the areas where the customers are getting these notices. They have to get a new phone from somebody, because their old phone is about to become obsolete.

Re:AT&T Wireless?

[rwoodford]

The reason that AT&T was so attractive to Cingular is they use the exact same technologies: TMDA and GSM. It's so much easier to pool the entire subscriber base that way. TDMA is not being retired any time soon. AT&T's GSM network is no where near large enough to handle the entire subscriber base. Once the Cingular overlords take over, this may change. This is a retirement of phones that only work on one frequency band and suffer dropped/blocked calls due to not being able to use AT&T's entire available spectrum in those areas.

There's a word for that

[Anonymous Coward]

We usually call these "not upgrades" downgrades.

Great

[Realistic_Dragon]

Shame the feature they remove is the Bluetooth and the serial connection, rather than the phone, sucky non-regular keypad or the colour screen.

I'm sticking with my 6310i until it dies, then I'll buy another one off eBay.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

the 6310i is one of the best nokia phones out there.

I will be doing the same when my one also dies.

Re:Great

[fingusernames]

I love my 6310i too. It appears to be one of the last real phones. No idiotic keypad, no power-sapping stupid useless color screen or camera. Nice, simple, solid, big screen, *excellent* backlight, Bluetooth, tri-band GSM... perfect PHONE.

Larry

This doesn't sound like a bad thing

[jovian_]

According to the article, "The now obsolete phones will still work on the AT&T network, howeverthey will continue to have poor reception. Use them at your own risk."

So you can still keep your old phone, and it'll still work as it has in the past -- somewhat poorly, but not differently. Or, AT&T is offering free replacement phones that have improved reception but may not have all the features of your old phone. I don't see the problem here. If you want to stick with what you have, nothing is stopping you. AT&T is giving you a choice, which is more than most companies would do.

Just my two cents.

Re:This doesn't sound like a bad thing

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Here's the deal...if people buy phones specifically because they have BT, doesn't that mean they use bt? I know, some don't but those are the ones that will hop to the new phone and it doesn't matter. I on the other hand am considering seriously a jump to a carrier with worse coverage (from verizon who has the best now) just so I can have a phone with BT. Those who want bluetooth want it so they can use it. So shame on AT&T for offering to replace a phone with more features with one with less. I think they should give you MORE features in this case as they screwed up and gave you a phone they knew, as a company, they would have reception issues.

Who's laughing now?

[Anonymous Coward]

They all laughed at my refusal to join the club and my incredibly long cords, but I'll be proven right in the end. I'm staying in control of my phone destiny.

Re:Who's laughing now?

[bofkentucky]

Up until Ma Bell's breakup in the 80's, most residential customers didn't own their landline phones, they were leased!

0xdeadbeef

[mrsam]

Up until November of last year me and my SO were att wireless subscribers. It was rather obvious that at&t wireless service couldn't really get any worse than it already was. Phone call quality always sucked unless the signal strength is at least at the halfway mark. That is if you were lucky to be in an area with any reception whatsoever. Their local calling areas were piss poor, and we got hit with roaming charges every month.

As soon as number portability kicked in, we bailed out for t-mobile GSM. The difference was like night and day. at&t wireless showed no signal in my home. The new phones (free t610 camera phones, by the way, with bluetooth, infrared, etc...) now show a good signal. No roaming charges, the call quality is now much better, and there are hardly any dropouts even if the phone shows only a single blip on the signal strength meter.

When I called to cancel at&t they lamely offered an upgrade to gsm. No thanks. Even if gsm is supposedly a better technology, I'm sure that at&t would find a way to screw it up, somehow.

Cingular wants to swallow up at&t? I hope they choke.

Re:0xdeadbeef

[Wakkow]

"Cingular wants to swallow up at&t? I hope they choke."

Remember that in California and (I think) New York, Cingular and T-Mobile are effectively the same when it comes to reception since they use the same towers.

Re:0xdeadbeef

[mrsam]

Remember that in California and (I think) New York, Cingular and T-Mobile are effectively the same when it comes to reception since they use the same towers.

Then explain to me why here, in Nyoo Yawk, at&t wireless had no signal in either my house, or my office building, while t-mobile keeps getting good reception in both cases.

Oh, and I completely forgot how LOVELY it is to watch at&t's phones telling you they're getting a strong signal, but as soon as you place a call, while standing in the same spot, the signal strength drops to zero and you get cut off ten seconds into the call.

I'd love to tell you that it was only a bum phone, but both me and my SO had suffer like this, but we were using different phones with at&t wireless.

Re:0xdeadbeef

[Wakkow]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you about AT&T .. They suck.. My g/f had AT&T and always had dropped calls and sometimes had that problem you describe. I hear AT&T is tolerable if you get their more expensive plan that roams onto other GSM networks.

Re:0xdeadbeef

[bluGill]

Notice that the original poster said Cingular and T-Mobile, and not AT&T?

Cingular and T-Mobile have roaming agreements. If you have service with one, and the other is the only one with a tower in range, they will tell your phone to automatically switch, at no extra charge, and no interuption of service.

AT&T apparently doesn't not have such an agreement, so even though your phone can see the T-Mobile/Cingular tower, it isn't allowed to use it. There likely is a way to force the phone to use that tower, but if you manage to get it to work you will pay for it.

I have no clue why AT&T wopuldn't want to do this. In the end they all end up better service, meaning they have a better chance to take customers from Verizion/Sprint, and the little guys. Perhaps just that Cingular and T-Mobile do not have licenses for the same area of the country, so there is little overlap between them.

Re:0xdeadbeef

[Radius9]

What's happening there, where your signal strength is max and then drops to 0 when you're making a call, is the overcrowding of the cellular frequencies. Each of the towers can handle a specific number of active calls. So you are on a tower that is close to you, but is overloaded, but you show full signal strength. When you try and place a call, your call is handed off to the closest tower (or what the system thinks is the closest tower) that has available capacity. Therefore your signal strength goes to 0. I've had this happen consistently with every major carrier I've used (Sprint, AT&T, Cingular, AND Verizon) at my house, since I live near one of the busiest freeway intersections in the United States.

Re:0xdeadbeef

[Anonymous Coward]

Just my own personal experiences w/ ATTWS... I don't know what the fuss is about, I've been a subscriber on the TDMA and GSM networks in the Denver and Minneapolis areas. Coverage was slightly better under TDMA, however, the difference to me was negligable.

I know it's everyone that is getting aweful service that goes out of their way to leave comments. I switched off ATTWS in favor of Worldcom (yeah, uhm... oops!). Worldcom, sucked, the worst service ever. I've had nothing but good use out of my phones and customer service has always been relatively painless to deal with. I for one don't know what everyone is complaining about. BTW, I have been using my phone 1500+ minutes/month so it's not like I'm just checking that its powered and then assuming all is well.

Re:0xdeadbeef

[Kamel Jockey]

AT&T apparently doesn't not have such an agreement, so even though your phone can see the T-Mobile/Cingular tower, it isn't allowed to use it.

In the Philadelphia metro area, AT&T and Cingular roam on each other's networks. Since AT&T is a newcomer here, and Cingular is more established, you are more likely to see an "Extended Area" display on your AT&T Wireless phone which is roaming on a Cingular tower than you are to see a "Cingular Extend" display on your Cingular phone which is roaming on an AT&T Wireless tower.

When I was an AT&T Wireless subscriber a few years back, I found this out because the only time I would get full signal strength in my area was when the "Extended Area" message was displayed on my phone. When I dialed 611 I got a Cingular operator.

The situation is the exact opposite in most of Pennsylvania outside of the Philadelphia area, in which AT&T Wireless has excellent coverage and Cingular uses their network to plug gaps in their coverage areas there.

There likely is a way to force the phone to use that tower, but if you manage to get it to work you will pay for it.

On my old Nokia 51xx phone from AT&T Wireless, I could get it forcibly roam on Cingular's network by wrapping my hand around the top part of the phone until the signal died. Since AT&T Wireless' signal strength is so piss poor here, it was really easy to kill the signal by doing this. Once the signal died, I would get full strength on the "Extended Area" system. At that point, I could go into the "System Selection" menu on the phone, and then specity a manual selection for the "Extended Area" system. The oddest part was that after a week or so, the phone would magically switch back to the AT&T Wireless system. I did not incur any extra charges because I used the phone only in my local calling area.

So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wireless

[MBCook]

On topic, DUH. They aren't saying you HAVE to switch, they are just strongly suggesting it because it will improve your reception. And you forked out all that extra cash for a smart phone, you should be prepared to do it again. If AT&T was going to disable your phone, then it would be reasonable to make them replace it with the same thing. But as it is they are just offering you one of their standard phones free. If you still want all those extra features, you can pay again.

It's not extra nice, but it makes perfect sense to me. I don't think you can really falt AT&T for this. Sorry.

The OT part: I am seroiusly thinking about switching carries for my phone (I don't care about my current number, so that hassle doesn't factor in), and I'm seriously looking at AT&T. I was thinking of getting a Sony-Ericsson T610 (or T616, whatever they want to sell me) for it's bluetooth and java (and looks).

Is AT&T a very nice provider? How hard is it to use a bluetooth phone as a modem (you know, connect to the internet through it)? Where can I find directions on that?

But overall, how are people's expiriances with it?

PS: I'm in eastern Kansas if you know what the reception is like there

Heh heh heh

[mbourgon]

These are the models once carried by AT&T that are affected:
[...]
Nokia N-Gage
[...]

Aside from the inevitable N-Gage jokes, what gives? Considering the N-Gage just came out the past few months, you'd think it wouldn't have shipped with the old configuration.

Re:Heh heh heh

[Frogbert]

This isn't an old configuration, just a diffrent one. From what I can tell AT&T oversold and cluttered up their frequency. That said the N-Gage is TriBand it would seem that once again your mess of a phone system is to blame.

Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[onyxruby]

Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago, but then found out that all of their modem capable cell phones can only use that capability on their digital network. I explained I was wanting to use my cell phone as a regular analog modem, and was told it didn't matter. It was charged by the MB regardless, and to get more than 4 MB a month was extroidnarily expensive. Can you imagine you land line provider telling you that you would have to pay extra for using your line for a modem instead of voice? This wasn't a case of minutes or the like either.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[SharpFang]

Can you imagine you land line provider telling you that you would have to pay extra for using your line for a modem instead of voice?
Actually, I can. TPSA Poland, installing special dampeners on their lines to prevent people from using modems faster than 12Kbps, so they could rip them off with their own Internet packages (ADSL) instead of using the lines to connect to cheaper ISPs.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[H8X55]

um, how would they know if you were using it for voice or data? dialing is dialing. connected calls are connected calls. i can understand them charging for bandwidth if you're connected to them, downloading their content, but if you call someone else, and get their data, you should only pay for the minutes used to do so. that had to have been a salesman talking out of his ass. if not, you're right, that's the stupidest thing i've heard mobile service providers do in a long time.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[digitalvengeance]

Yes, I can imagine landline providers doing just that, because they do. Most of the "unlimited long distance" plans offered by the large phone companies come with the "voice calls only" restriction. They don't want someone in a rural area connecting to AOL 16 hours a day for one flat rate.

Do I agree with the policy? No. The only way it could be enforced is to listen in on a call from time to time to ensure that it is human voice rather than modem chatter... and that opens up a whole new can of worms.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[JurgenThor]

Because modern phone switching technology is able to handle phone signals differently if they're carrying voice. Something to do with silence on the line.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[onyxruby]

Oi, I feel sorry for you, that was just supposed to be a bad example to avoid.

On your sig though, I wish it wasn't so true, we have too many people here that have the right to vote but don't. Last presidential election we had less than 60 million people vote, that's less than half the eligible population. Unfortunately people seem to think it's ok not to participate in their government election process and then turn around and complain when those people do things they don't like. If your in Poland (guessing based on comment), out of curiousity, what portion of the eligible population votes if you happen to know?

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[Sapwatso]

Have you tried making a data call on one of those plans? It could be that they are compressing the voice call in a way that would not play nice with a data call.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[Dun Malg]

A citizen of USA will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national elections

On your sig though, I wish it wasn't so true, we have too many people here that have the right to vote but don't.

His sig isn't really true, though. The actual citizens who join the military and do the ocean crossing and fighting, they vote like crazy. The ones who don't vote are by and large also don't join the military.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[SharpFang]

About 60%, give or take 5% depending on elections, but always considering about 10% intelligent "My option isn't available" people in the remaining number.

Sometimes the number drops drastically, but not without reason - like some pretty ridiculous voting that if passed, would introduce some rather dumb regulations, but to be valid required valid(yes/no) votes from 40% of eligible population, so everyone who would vote "no" just didn't vote, and with "70% yes" the voting was announced invalid with only some 25% voting.

In the oncoming parliament elections the number will supposedly be low though. All major political powers had their go in the last years and all they failed at least twice, so people just don't know who should they vote. An extremist party that doesn't have any solid programme, but points out all mistakes of the competitors in rather violent way shows up with about 30% votes. Imagine US presidential voting with both republican and democratic candidates missing or almost missing, and liberal candidate rather weak.

Problems/stereotypes:
Right hand - christian wackos
Left hand - weenies without balls to do things needed to be done, unreformable (pseudo)communist concrete.
Liberals - thieves, egoists (politics = way for their companies to win on the market)
Farmers 1 - weenies, traitors (shift sides way too often).
Farmers 2 - Nazi-style wackos.
all - corrupted, power-hungry.

Whom to choose?

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[jim_deane]

Can you imagine you land line provider telling you that you would have to pay extra for using your line for a modem instead of voice?

Were you not around in the 1980's when telephone companies wanted to do just that?

Jim

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[andynz]

One reason for this is the fact that voice calls can be compressed and carried over VoIP very cheaply, but data calls are generally already compressed and therefore there are no efficiency gains to be made.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[will3477]

One of the phone line's at my parents (I'm a college student) is cheaper because it a "special" dialup line. Basically we agree not ot talk on it, and have to pay extra if we talk on it, vs using it to surf the web. So its actually the inverse of what you are talking about.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[Kris_J]

When I used my 8810 as a 9600 modem it was charged at some high rate based on connection time. Now that I have an N-Gage, if I use it as a (much faster) modem it's charged at a high rate based on data transfer. Either way it costs way too much to use. Nothing has changed.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[Jacer]

Can you help me out a bit? I'm interested in using my phone as a modem for my laptop. Do you have a provider that allows this? If so, what is it?

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[pancake_lover]

I have a little experience with CDMA. I assume that GSM & TDMA have the same issues.

The problem is that high speed analog modems use phase shift keying to encode the data over the analog phone line. If you make a normal voice call using a cell phone, the data is compressed by your phone and reconstructed in the cell tower using DSPs. This can result in jitter in the reconstructed signal. For voice this is acceptible. But for a data call, the jitter can cause the recontructed sine wave to be at the wrong phase, which would cause misinterpretion of the modem signal.

So when providers such as Sprint or AT&T offer data services, they use a different kind of modem, one that is cellular aware. This kind of modem doesn't send the data as a phase shifted sine wave. Instead it communicates directly with the cell tower in a digital form.

Having said that, I agree that the providers charge too much to make data calls. Basically the phone companies don't charge the true cost of a service. They charge what they think they can charge. It's all about making a buck.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[onyxruby]

I presently use verizon with a motorola 270c. It only gets about 12 Kbps but it will get me online to check email and look for help when I am on the road. It's painful, but it works. It uses a special adapter, but it installs pretty stable.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[Kamel Jockey]

I'm interested in using my phone as a modem for my laptop

If you have a Nokia phone with an IR adapter you can use either your laptop's IR port or a USB-to-IR adapter to use your cell phone as a modem. I did this with my Nokia 6340i with Cingular using both the IR port and the data cable. Both connections only get you a 9600bps connection though (or maybe I am doing something wrong?). The only issue with this is that I think this only works on GSM networks... I could connect in some of the bigger towns with what I thought was GSM service, but there were many areas with analog coverage and I think TDMA coverage that I could not connect in (I did this during a cross country trip). As for billing, the usage comes out of my regular minute allotment for the month.

Re:Almost switched to AT&T a little bit ago

[dledeaux]

In the old days of ISDN they charged you more for running data across the lines. In fact some ISDN adapters actually had features built into them that you could use to mask the fact that you were running data instead of voice though, if I remember correctly it forced you to run at 56K instead of 64K.

Treo 600 is an 850 mhz phone

[davidm25]

I think even the old 270 was. Makes you wonder how much fact checking was done before posting the article.

Re:Treo 600 is an 850 mhz phone

[sheckard]

The old 270 was most definitely not a 850MHz phone. The GSM 850 standard was made after the 270 came out.

And it said "every smartphone prior to the Treo 600" lacked the 850 band, it wasn't suggesting that the Treo 600 didn't have it.

Of course, the worst part of all of this?

[JessLeah]

The public will believe that the new phones are indeed 'upgrades'... since, you know, a Big Reputable Company told them so...

It's really not that bad

[sjhwilkes]

Only a small percentage of users use bluetooth or international roaming, for those that don't a T226 is going to be fine. GSM850 penetrates buildings much better than GSM1900, so I for one would like to have it.

AT&T have just mishandled things by not conducting a survey first to figure out who really needed bluetooth/non US frequencies. Before all this publicity they could have made the survey ambiguous enough that everyone didn't claim to be using every T68 feature.

I just got the mail saying they're sending me a T226 yesterday, and their lack of thought/research is clear because: I pay extra for GPRS data service (which I use via bluetooth, I can't see many people using 10MB within the phone each month), and I also have international roaming enabled on the account, and have used it within the past couple of months.

I suspect they're going to quietly backpedal and give T610s or whatever to the higher paying subscribers who ask for them.

Re:It's really not that bad

[Anonymous Coward]

"Only a small percentage of users use bluetooth..."

Hmmm... Perhaps that's because only a small percentage of phones *have* bluetooth.

If they made it a more standard feature perhaps more people would use it....

'Dupgrades' is the word you're looking for

[Anonymous Coward]

Example: I just dupgraded my computer to Windows XP over the weekend.

I got one of the "free" phones...

[rampant mac]

...and I threw it in the trash upon receiving it. I paid $120+ for my T68i, which syncs perfectly with my PowerBook's iCal and Address Book. The "free" phone doesn't have Bluetooth and feels insanely cheap compared to the T68i.

I'll keep using my T68i, and when they cut my service off, I'll demand a refund for my original phone. Then I'll take my business elsewhere.

AT&T shouldn't be forcing their customers to "upgrade" to anything. I smell a class-action lawsuit coming.

Re:I got one of the "free" phones...

[petabyte]

Well, my guess what ATT will do is wait until everyone is out of contract and then eliminate their legacy service. Once your contract expires and they terminate the legacy service, you either get a new phone or change providers (which probably means a new phone anyway).

I don't know what contract you signed but good luck getting a refund heh.

Re:I got one of the "free" phones...

[FoolishBose]

You didn't even try it to ebay it? I'm impressed.

Re:I got one of the "free" phones...

[Kris_J]

Insightful? Waste of time more likely. Haven't you got number portability over there? Just leave AT&T and move to another provider.

Re:I got one of the "free" phones...

[MrFrank]

Class action law suit? Why?

You want to give the lawyers more money so you can get your $5 coupon in the mail in three years?

Re:I got one of the "free" phones...

[Shurhaian]

Then don't complain when the people with "insanely cheap" phones have better coverage when you're wrestling with fast busies and dropped calls. There are only so many channels in the 1900 MHz band, so they're going to have to open up the 850 for GSM(which is relatively recent for AWS) in more places - and in some cases it might supplant, rather than work alongside, the 1900. As much as I dislike corporate politics, in this case the company gave you the means to keep your service running optimally - you just pissed on it.

I don't suppose you considered the fact that you can move your SIM between two different phones?

Just complain

[tedshultz]

This is how companies save money. They give the cheapos to most people, and only give the more expensive items to people who complain. With most companies, complaining can get you some crazy good deals. If you are a 'good' customer, phone companies will go out of there way to serve you.

Scam

[zachlipton]

ATT Wireless is really running a scam with this "upgrade" arrangement. See this post for more information. The real catch is that to get the "free" phone, you have to sign a new contract with them. Worse yet, it's not just a new contract, it's a two year contract (basically forever as far as I am concerned). The free phones they offer are of course pretty terrible (far more annoying than the free phone I got from them getting their service in the first place) and more importantly, their network is practically useless in many places unless you upgrade (since they rolled out the upgrade, I've had no service (GSM) throughout much of San Francisco). I would even be willing to just purchase a new cell phone, but they have made it impossible to purchase a phone at retail without a contract, and it would cost way too much (price gouging to force people to sign a contract basically).

I'm currently shopping around for a new provider, though the crazy set of plans and prices that all the firms offer makes it impossible to compare plans or even figure out how much the service will cost.

Re:Scam

[wikkiewikkie]

Actually, you're mistaken. If you have recieved a mailing notifying you that you will recieve a new phone, there is no contract requirement. On the other hand, if you just walk in to the store and complain and want a new phone, their normal policies regarding discounts on phones in exchange for signing a contract will apply.

What you're talking about has nothing to do with the program mentioned in the article.

Re:Scam

[lewp]

Heh? I just walked into an AT&T Wireless store and bought a T616 retail-style. The guy in there acted like this is a fairly regular occurance. In fact, there was another guy in there doing the exact same thing.

Was it cheap? No. But I didn't have to sign a contract. Not sure why you are unable to do the same.

Re:Scam

[zachlipton]

Actually, I'm not mistaken.

I began the process by walking in to the store and complaining and being told I would get a free phone in exchange for signing a contract and they would be sending a mailing regarding this "upgrade" in the next few weeks. Shortly thereafter, I did get a mailing notifying me that I will recieve a new phone, but only with a new two-year contract (this was rather buried in the letter, but it is clear that it is their policy).

Re:Scam

[wikkiewikkie]

Perhaps they're sending out different information depending on the model of phone, because the information I recieved in the mail has no mention of a contract requirement, and it even says on the front "ABSOLUTELY no strings attached!" Careful review of the web site mentioned in the information also reveals no information about a contract.

Check it out yourself:

http://www.sonyericssonT226upgrade.com

Re:Scam

[NivenHuH]

And I had mod points too.. :(

You might be re-committed to a 2 year contract (or whatever), but AT&T is being bought out by Cingular, and in the contract agreement, it says you have the right to cancel your contract agreement if you don't agree with a modification made to the agreement. Well, if AT&T is being bought out, you have grounds to cancel your contract for one of two reasons:
- You have a contract with AT&T, not Cingular
- Cingular will have a different service contract (that I assume) will become the old AT&T customers contract..

I'd take the freebie they give ya..

Re:Scam

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for said company and you WILL NOT be let out of your contract when/if the merger goes through. Read the T&C's before you post something. There is absolutely no modification made to your agreement if a merger happens. We all know /. is not known for accurate news, but wow. I have a background --more than most here-- in software and half the stuff on /. is, shall we say, slanted. I'd say that only 60% of information pertaining to software/hardware is correct, and this is from people who "know" there stuff. You cannot begin to imagine how painful it is to read through this thread and see how bad the misinformation, ignorance and stupidity can get. Probably only 2% of the information in this whole thread is correct.

The facts:

1) It is NOT required that these select people agree to a new contract of any kind. It is a "no strings attached" offer. Free phone to make coverage better, those bastards at AWE.

2) You do NOT have to take the FREE phone!

3) GSM equipment requires a SIM (Subscriber Identity Module). It is this SIM that actually holds all the registration information for the user.

Re:Scam

[NivenHuH]

... It says here if they change their terms, you can cancel out of your contract:

"Changes to Agreement or Service. We may amend the terms of this Agreement, including the Sales Information, upon advance notice provided to you in any manner we choose, including by notice contained with your invoice for the Service. In the event that we make such a change that has a material adverse impact on your rights or use of the Service, you may terminate the Agreement by giving us notice within 20 days of the date we notify you, and you will not be charged any cancellation fee. If you use the Service more than 20 days after we notify you of a change, you agree to that change. You have the option to change your Service at any time by notifying us, and you may take advantage of those of our Services for which you qualify, provided that you comply with any requirements of the Service, including, where applicable, extending the term of this Agreement. Any change will take effect by your next billing cycle, and your continued use of the Service will be deemed to constitute your express consent to the changes. If you transfer to a Rate Plan having a term that is shorter than your previous Rate Plan, you may remain obligated for the term of the previous Rate Plan."

"Business Transfer. You consent to disclosure of your CPNI or other personal information, in connection with any merger, acquisition or sale of our assets or transition of service to another provider, as well as in the event of an insolvency, bankruptcy or receivership in which personal information would be transferred as one of our business assets."

CPNI (is your device id on the network).. nowhere does it say you're still bound to your contract in the event of a merger.. In addition, I said "IF" there was a change in the contract agreement, you were no longer bound to the contract..

Why don't YOU read the post AND the T&C before you post..

Re:Scam

[dwillden]

It's not the only scam they're trying to run, I'm just counting down the days until my current contract runs out and I'm moving to another service. But in the Last week I've recieved the same incredible offer from AT&T twice. I can get a one time 29.95 credit on my account if I agree to another one year contract. Wow!
NOT!!!! The catch is that the contract includes a $175 penalty for canceling early.

Got one.. and returned in less than a day!

[JGski]

Their update concept is very good concept, if and only if what you're offering for the upgrade is any good.

Where does one begin?

1. Current T68 is curvy, stylish and ergonomic in the hand, upgrade T226 phone is an ugly box, light and cheap feeling
2. Only apparent "new feature": MMS - major yawn for anyone over the age of, I don't know, 14 years of age? On top of that doing anything with MMS deathly slow and cumbersome to use. As usually for tech marketing - forgot to ask customer what they actually wanted - this wasn't it!
3. Oh yeah, polyphonic ring tones, too. BFD!
4. More crap crammed into a too small space: joystick is usable on the T68; new phone it's nearly impossible to use. Just too small, and no actual "joystick", just 5 button placed inconveniently close in a cross.
5. T68 keypad numbers are well illuminated for dialing in the dark; on the T226 they are utterly illegibly dim
6. The screen seems to be a bit bigger on the T226 phone, but is actually worse readability than the T68 - presumably lower resolution.
7. No bluetooth - from one of companies that invented no less; current T68 has bluetooth (complete with alternating, if silly, activity lights - online & bluetooth - it's inane but strangely comforting)
8. Did mention the T226 is just d*mn ugly! It looks and feels like something you'd get out of a Crackjack box

Tried the phone for a couple of hours and just gave up on it. Sent it back. Thankfully you can switch the SIM card back to the old phone so easily. If you have a T68, you are stepping way down with this phone! BMW to Yugo. You're a fool if you keep it. And now, of course, it'll be a case of once bitten, twice shy if they try it again.

I don't know who to blame more: AT&T or Sony-Ericson. For AT&T, this will go down as one the stupidest tech marketing blunders in a while! For Sony-Ericson, well, the engineering team that designed the T226 should be taken out and shot. At the very least they should barred from designing any consumer electronic product - for life!

When the T68 came out I thought maybe Ericson might finally have figured out what Nokia does right - with this phone it's apparent the T68 was just a lucky, but utterly random accident. :-p

Re:Got one.. and returned in less than a day!

[suzerain]

I just wanted to quickly say, that though I have not used the T226, but I don't think it's worth jumping all over Ericcson here. Sure, the T226 may be a P.O.S., but I don't think they would tell you it is the logical upgrade path for the T68. That'd be the T610/T616.

It appears to be AT&T who decided the T226 was an "upgrade" for T68 users, not Ericcson.

Re:Got one.. and returned in less than a day!

[JGski]

Actually Ericcson specifically did endorse the upgrade path. The letter that comes with the "upgrade T226" specifically mentions that it's a join AT&T/Sony-Ericcson upgrade program. I'd even bet that AT&T is getting them for free in exchange for the advertising value for Sony-Ericcson. That's how these joint marketing programs usually work.

Nokia 8260 affected?

[Saint Stephen]

I'm the Bay Area, Northern California, on AT&T with a non-GSM Nokia 8260.

Three years ago I used to get dropped calls a lot but for the last two years, and currently, I am quite satisified with the reception, the price, and the features. I'm entirely satisfied with AT&T and worried about what I should do, since apparently no one else is.

Am I affected by this?

Re:Nokia 8260 affected?

[lightray]

Their customer service is atrocious.

They are switching to GSM, but their GSM coverage is among the worst. Moreover, they do not support GSM data calls (i.e., say you want to call a BBS or a traditional ISP), while Cingular does.

Re:Nokia 8260 affected?

[Saint Stephen]

I used to ask questions of the workers at the "ATT Store" where I bought my phone and set up my services, and I felt like you that the services was absolutely atrocious. I was asking about the ins and outs of switching to GSM.

Finally I called phone support and got an Indian woman who read in copious details all the policies and answered every question in minutest detail, about what would be involved. I was satisfied.

Basically they've met expectations, and that's all I can ask. I have been frustrated by them occasionally but no worse than every other company these days.

So I never understood why they were "the worst." But then again, I never did their GSM. Probably t hat's it.

Re:Nokia 8260 affected?

[krails]

I have AT&T GSM service in the SF Bay Area, on a SonyEriccson T616. I use the GSM Data service with no problems. I can VPN, surf the web, and SSH from my PowerBook once I connect.

Just like...

[xeon4life]

...the way Windows "upgrades" aren't. :)

ah Buetooth hackable duh!

[linuxislandsucks]

Ah how /.'s forget..most Buetooth implementatiosn currently are hackable..ie insecure..

maybe AT&T got security minded? :)

Also in Portland Oregon

[Sloth503]

I got the letter on Friday from ATTWS, saying that they were sending me a new phone. They are supposedly providing return shipping for the old phone but the letter didn't say anything about HAVING to return the old phone to get the new phone. I'll be interested in reading the fine print when the new phone shows up but I'm not worried. I have no interest in downgrading from my T68i to this lesser phone, and I have no interest in returning either my old phone or the new one they are sending to me. More information can be found at: http://sonyericssont226upgrade.com/

Now, some background information on the return issue - I used to manage the returns department for a dotcom and thus I was supposed to know a bit about returns issues. I cannot name the specific regulation by name, but the FTC says that if a merchant sends you a product that you didn't order, it is your's for free. They can ask for you to pay for it, they can ask for you to return it, they can call you bad names for keeping it, but they cannot require you to return it nor can they require you to pay for it. Keep this in mind for this new phone and any future boxes that end up at your door step. Now, since we are all ATTWS subscribers and signed some contract when we got our service, they might actually be able to force us to return the new phones or pay for them, but I'm not sure.

Now here's the part about the whole deal that makes me worried. Why are they sending new phones for free to people? Why aren't they just letting us keep our outdated phones and stop selling them, and start selling the new phones? What is the benefit of sending me a new phone and asking for me to return my old phone? At first I thought they wanted to give me a new phone with more features so that I'd send more SSM messages, or download ringtones, or do something else that would generate more revenue for ATTWS, but I don't think that is the case, if it was I think they would have given out even cooler phones. Frankly I cannot use a phone without Bluetooth, I just cannot, if the new phone had all the features of my old phone and some bonuses it would be a different story but... ATTWS is doing something it doesn't have to. They are giving out free phones when they don't have to. It doesn't make any sense, they should just stop selling the old phones. I think there is more to the story unfortunately, and I think that the end effect is that sooner or later my old phone will no longer work with ATTWS.

Will someone please file a class action lawsuit. I'm already ready to sign up.

Re:Also in Portland Oregon

[Anonymous Coward]

They might be planning on "turning off" the older network as soon as the existing contracts of people with the older phones ends.

Re:Also in Portland Oregon

[wfberg]

They might be planning on "turning off" the older network as soon as the existing contracts of people with the older phones ends.


The T68 does 900/1800/1900 and the replacement does 850 and 1900. The 850 network is in addition to the 1900 one. Otherwise they wouldn't be getting any extra capacity.

As for replacing TDMA or CDMA with GSM, well that could happen, but when you hand out dual-band phones, you expand your network, not just shift it around. Otherwise the FCC might come and get those frequencies back from you and give them to a competitor, and you don't want that.

Re:Also in Portland Oregon

[GeorgeH]

You explained it in your last sentence... they're trying to avoid a class action lawsuit.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[Jhon]

Is AT&T a very nice provider? How hard is it to use a bluetooth phone as a modem (you know, connect to the internet through it)? Where can I find directions on that?

I've been using ATT for over a year. While I'm not 100% pleased as punch with them, they offer one feature I've come to rely on: unlimited free incoming text messages. I've got scripts and alerts set up at my work that lets me know useful and immediate information. Further, it allows the personnel I support to "page" me without them ever knowing my cell number. The service as proven to be quite reliable (no lost messages as I have messages forwarded both to my phone and an email account JUST in case).

My monthly cell phone cost is cheaper than was my alpha pager. The only downside is the maximum message size (~160 characters vs. ~450 characters). I live in the LA area -- and reception hasn't been terrible for me at all. I think part of that is related to the phone as well as coverage as I get decent reception in our basement while others at my work (including other ATT customers) get "no service".

All I want to do is make phone calls....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Sprint PCS customer with an ancient StarTac that is due for a replacement. I've got a great calling plan, and I'd like to keep it. I don't want a camera phone. I don't even know what Vision is or does, but I'm pretty sure I don't need it or want it. I don't want special ringers, nor do I want to email videos of relatives making cookies or taking baths to people across the country on business trips. I just want a phone that makes phone calls and doesn't drop them. I went to the Sprint store today. Everything they sell has cameras, games, ringers galore ... Seems like all of their plans include "Vision". When did cel phones turn into these freaking entertainment centers. I just want to make phone calls. What phone is for me?

Re:All I want to do is make phone calls....

[TeddyR]

I asked the same questions a short while back on a different cell phone related slashdot article, and mkop kindly pointed me to this site....

Re:All I want to do is make phone calls....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious ... What phone did you end up getting?
Thanks for the reference.

Not necessarily a required upgrade

[Cyph]

I received a letter in the mail from AT&T Wireless saying that to take advantage of the updated coverage area and so on I need to upgrade my Nokia 3650 phone (which is a pretty powerful and recent phone) to one of the models offered, every single one of which was a lot worse than my 3650. I contacted AT&T Wireless over to the phone to find out why they're trying to get me to switch to a crappier phone and I was told that it was just a mass mailing and that my phone is fully capable of handling the updated network, thus, I am not required to "upgrade".

The article (I read it!) does say that to take advantage of the updated network I need to upgrade the phone, but the point is that it's not a forced upgrade and I can freely continue using my current phone. I'm going to try and get through to customer retention and get a more decent upgrade phone, though.

But they didn't give a choice.

[phillymjs]

The first I heard of this "upgrade" program was a card I got in the mail a week ago last Friday. It doesn't say, "Hey, if you want, you can switch to this phone," it says, "We're giving you this phone in exchange for yours."

When I saw what a feature-lacking piece of shit the T226 is compared to my T68i, I called the number on the card to see if I had an option of declining this allegedly-generous gesture. When they told me I could refuse the T226, they took my name and checked to see if my T226 had already been shipped out, and it had-- via UPS, according to the CSR, who told me to just refuse the package.

I am in complete agreement that the T616 should have been the replacement phone for the T68i. Not everyone is purely interested in stupid-ass ringtones and games. Every feature I bought the T68i for is missing in the T226, so I don't see how anyone can call that an upgrade with a straight face.

~Philly

Re:But they didn't give a choice.

[BrookHarty]

I am in complete agreement that the T616 should have been the replacement phone for the T68i. Not everyone is purely interested in stupid-ass ringtones and games.

They are giving you a 100 dollar T226phone for free, or you can pay 99 bux and get the T616. How is this a bad thing?

Bluetooth was never taken serriously by phone vendors, if thats your main point, upgrade to the T616.

Re:But they didn't give a choice.

[phillymjs]

I did upgrade to the T616, but I wasn't offered that option by anyone connected with this T226 deal-- I initiated it myself when I got interested in what new phones were out there.

And if the vendors don't take Bluetooth seriously, they are idiots. I've got a Bluetooth headset that I use via voice dialing (another feature missing from the T226). I also got rid of my Palm and make do with the robust calendar and contact capabilites of the phone (the T226 has these, but they are weaker than the T68i/T616's), and sync everything to my Macs (something else the T226 can't do) via Bluetooth. Oh, and in a pinch I use the modem capabilities (yet another feature not in the T226) to get my iBook connected to the net.

So, you may think that I was just bitching about the lack of Bluetooth, but I was really bitching about the lack of all the other features that make Bluetooth so damned useful to me.

The vendors just give Bluetooth short shrift because they can't make it into a revenue source like the stupid ringtones, backgrounds, and games.

~Philly

Re:But they didn't give a choice.

[DharmaDog]

I too have the T68i and was upset to find that the T226 is lacking all the features that drove me to buy the T68i.

I also got a card and also called the toll free number to try and refuse the T226. They told me I could not refuse it, but that it was mine and I could use it or not, or sell it or whatever.

I tried to negotiate for a T616 (which is the replacement for the T68i), but had no luck.

AT&T Wireless service in Houston sucks. I am continually having to contort myself while on the phone so I can get a decent signal.

The T226 and T616 are SUPPOSED to have better reception because they use 850MHz band instead of the 900MHz like my T68i. I will try the T226 to see if this is true, and if so then I may buy a T616.

Talk about having to jump through fucking hoops to be able to make an audible phone call.

Re:But they didn't give a choice.

[mattkime]

I called up customer service and explained that I was unhappy with the trade in program and that I wanted a T616. They sold me one at the price they'd give new customers - $99 with a 2 year service agreement. I didn't try too hard at this and feel I got a fairly good deal on a phone I really want. People will complain about the service contract, but I'm not a provider slut. Good luck

Re:But they didn't give a choice.

[Boogaroo]

Interesting bit of postal law is that: If a company ships you something that you did not request, they cannot bill you for it. It is considered a gift at that point. This law was put into place to prevent companies from scamming folks by sending you a $1 product and claiming you owe them $20.

Now, UPS is NOT the US Postal Service so I'm wondering if this law applies to them. If so, then nobody HAS to send in the old phone. They can keep it and do whatever they want. If the law does not apply then I don't know... perhaps acceptance of the package would constitute acceptance of the terms listed in the letter you got.

Anyone else wanna play IANAL for me here?

Re:But they didn't give a choice.

[DharmaDog]

I hate to break the news to you, but they didn't do you any favor. A new or existing subscriber can get that price simply by going to the website, and a week or so ago you could have gotten the T616 from ATT online for $79 with a 2 year contract.

Re:But they didn't give a choice.

[mattkime]

From what I can tell they will only give you that price if you're a new customer. Now maybe they've always been willing to give you a better deal if you call in but if thats the case then no one else can.

Re:But they didn't give a choice.

[DharmaDog]

Actually, the $79 deal applied to existing customers as well, as long as you extended your contract for 2 years. You did not have to call in to get the deal. Existing subscribers could get it through the website.

I didn't take advantage because one of the requirements is that you do automatic bank payments, which I will not do. I had a bad experience with this once when a 'computer error' caused $3500 to disappear from my account. Took seconds for the money to disappear and 10 business days of fighting to get it back. Not worth the risk to me to save $20 on a phone.

Low Feature Phones.

[triso]

I cannot believe AT&T are giving out simple phones. Where did they find them? All I ever see is Bluetooth, virtual laser keyboards, SMS, digital video, WiFi, 3G, a 3D video processor and flash memory.

Sales Droid: So Maam, this is our most fully-featured phone ...

Me: That's great but all I want to do is make phone calls.

Droid: Sorry! That feature was depricated last year.

Me: What! Oh well.

Re:Low Feature Phones.

[Prof.Phreak]

Funny, but all I use my phone for is `to make calls'. I have a computer for messages, a digital camera for images, and no, I don't need to access the Internet _all_ the time (in fact, I'm sometimes happy to get just get away from it all - including the phone itself).

Why would anyone _want_ all these features in their phone is beyond me.

Sometimes I think the whole world is filled with weirdos who play cellphone games on the subway (or worse: choose best tones, or flip through various features - for hours on end).

Not as good as the old

[Prof. Pi]

I believe the "upgrade" phones run at 850mhz, providing better service to the areas the "upgrades" are offered.

The old phones ran at 1900mhz. So the new phones are, what, like less than half as good as the old ones?

Re:Not as good as the old

[el_nino-2000]

The frequency the phone uses doesn't determine the quality.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in NE Kansas (Manhattan to be precise) and use Alltel as my cell phone provider. My girlfriend and I do a fair amount of traveling to see her parents east of KC, MO and have good signal strength all the way. I have a Nokia 5185i and she has a Audiovox 8410.

Just be warned: make SURE you have the Total Freedom plan, not the National or Local plans. If you're on one of the other plans, you WILL get a lot of roaming fees because they don't have towers from Topeka going east to KC.

So who do I use instead?

[TheSHAD0W]

I travel a lot in the wilderness, and I'm often in places where the only service available is analog cellular. AT&T's One Rate service was excellent, and I still have their Panasonic Tuff phone (don't know why they ever discontinued this beast, I've dropped it so often and it still works well)...

So if I need to switch carriers, who else still offers analog service?

Re:So who do I use instead?

[illumin8]

I would recommend Cingular. I had a dual-band (TDMA & analog) Nokia 6250, and used to drive through the backroads of Arkansas quite a bit for my job. It doesn't get more rural than that. Cingular has a nationwide no roaming plan, and I got coverage almost everywhere I went. Even up on the lake or in a lot of camping grounds I would still get analog coverage.

Also, they don't gouge you on the price either. I think my bill was like $79 a month for 1000 anytime nationwide no roaming minutes. Here's a tip: If you're going to sign up for a Cingular plan, do it at Best Buy instead of at a Cingular outlet. Best Buy negotiates discounts on the phones. At the time I signed up (a couple of years ago), the Cingular outlet wanted $200 for the phone + a 2 year contract. Well, I got the same phone at Best Buy for only $15 plus a 1 year contract.

Who cares about the phones? TDMA is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Switch carriers. TDMA is the BEST cell phone standard in the United States. You can get coverage virtually ANYWHERE. Because TDMA is so much older, it has longer range and better sound quality. Switching from a TDMA phone to a GSM phone is OF COURSE A DOWNGRADE.

I have TDMA service through Cellular One in Oregon and I LOVE it. I've made phone calls on Mt Hood, South Sister and lots of other strange, way away from civilization places you wouldn't expect a phone to work.

Plus, TDMA plans are generally cheaper because the cell companies have already paid off their investment in them.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[red floyd]

I had ATTWS TDMA service (Nokia 5160) in a major metropolitan area (Los Angeles).

They had large coverage holes, including one about half a mile from my house. Needless to say, as soon as my contract was up, I switched.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[red floyd]

Plus, ATTWS botched (and for all I know, may still be botching) the Number Portability thing.

No Bluetooth-Lost and Found.

[Anonymous Coward]

"You own your phone, but in this case AT&T is telling these customers that if they don't trade in the phone, it won't work with AT&T anymore because the customer has a non-GSM phone, and AT&T is switching to GSM-only in their area."

True. Now just try to get the unlock codes for the phone you "own" to move to another network, and you'll find out the truth.

Re:No Bluetooth-Lost and Found.

[Mindtoy]

Actually, on T-Mobile after you've had the phone for a while you can send an email requesting the unlock code to SIMUnlock@T-Mobile.com I had no problems getting my Nokia 3390 unlock code from them.

Re:No Bluetooth-Lost and Found.

[JuggleGeek]

T-Mobile does some of their marketing via email spam. If you do business with them, you are supporting a spammer.

AT&T GSM SUCKS

[vthokiestm]

I was a "charter member" of the AT&T GSM service after being a TDMA member for 2 years. Man it sucked. I couldn't wait for the year contract to end. Everywhere I went in the country (mostly the NE and NW) the service was spotty at best. Keep clear of AT&T GSM.

Re:AT&T GSM SUCKS

[Anonymous Coward]

I had AT&T and switched to the GSM on the advice of an ex-friend. The coverage in southern california is extremely spotty. And you cannot get a live voice on their customer disservice number. You get the silliest stupidest pick an option menu, none of which allows you to speak to an actual human being, Indian or otherwise. AT&T? -- never again! Verizon: 5 bars everywhere.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[WhoDaresWins]

I don't know about Kansas, but at least in California AT&T GSM is one of the worse choices you could make -
http://nordicgroup.us/ssub/sfbaratings.htm
http://nordicgroup.us/ssub/scaratings.htm
(look at the overall coverage numbers in that table)
Generally Verizon is considered to have the best coverage and service. SprintPCS would be second and they have much cooler phones (but only one BlueTooth phone). Overall CDMA has a technical edge over GSM in terms of spectral efficiency and the carriers ability to upgrade to newer technologies. However I would advise you to do your own research and come to your own conclusions. Don't go by everything the GSM camp is telling you. You will find many interesting resources about cell phones and their technologies if you explore the other links on the site I linked to above.

Hey!

[Hooligan Rob]

They must have some sort of cross-licensing agreement with Sprint. That happens to me too! Isn't it great how corporations are still willing to get together and share different technologies?

There's gotta be something....

[weasel47_3]

I guess backward compatibility is out of the question. I smell Micro$aft. i.e. XP SP2, bluetooth.

It's gotta come at a cost to give all that free hardware out and switch everyones contact list. Who's paying ATT to do this?

Darned cell phone companies get more Weaseley every day.

I'm sure there's a catch. I know they have been working on stealth radar, using cell phone singals, which concequently can point you out on a map.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[Zelet]

I was an AT&T customer and I didn't realize how bad they were until I switched to Sprint. The coverage is MUCH better. Especially inside malls and big box stores like Target.

It also doesn't help that the world headquarters is in Overland Park Kansas. :)

I had the same problem with sprint

[Tikiman]

I had a nice, top of the line Nokia - a couple years later, calls would randomly disconnect. I used equipment replacement twice and get back the same model. Finally they tell me my phone is no longer compatible with their network! I asked to be transfered to the guy who could close my account, since my phone was entirely useless. Instead they transferred me to the guy who sent me a new phone, which did turn out to be a marginal upgrade due to two years of advancement in the technology. Eventually they even gave me a nice credit on my account for the months my phone was useless. However, I had to threaten to terminate my account before getting any results.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[phillyclaude]

i would go to tmobile. i just switched from ATT gsm in Philadelphia, and the difference is amazing. At my parents house, I went from only getting a signal on the windowsill, to getting a signal everywhere. I have not yet had a coverage problem in this area, other than being in deep basements, subways, etc. ATT's coverage stinks. It may increase if the cingular merger goes through, but thats a few years off.

http://www.sonyericssont226upgrade.com

[tetro]

linky That's the website with some info about the upgrade.

AT&T "doing good"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding me?

They've soo lost my trust years ago.

First, I buy one of their "Free To Go" phones. I load up on some minutes. Truly an emergency "car phone", no big investment wanted or needed on my part.

A few months later they come out with a "really good deal" for a 500 minute card.

A few weeks later they destroy the program, and just delete all my paid up (supposedly non-expiring) minutes. Why did they push so hard to sell 500 minute cards when they were looking to terminate the program? Yea, "goodness", that's it.

So, now, they're in the process or rendering my $150 '911' phone (all that's left from what I consider their first fraudulant "plan") useless as I'm sure my "dead phone" is not subject to, um, a free screw-grade.

Now they come along and drop this screw-grade on their customers. Bought a BMW, now you get to trade it back for a VW.

Yea, "good", sure that's where they're comming from. Not.

Judge people by their actions. For AT&T Wireless they've proven, to me, their motto is "Greed Before Service".

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[fiddlesticks]

> How hard is it to use a bluetooth phone as a
> modem (you know, connect to the internet through
> it)?

Good clarification. thought you meant use it as a modem to...er..connect to the Internet

> Where can I find directions on that?

Google?

here

or even

Linux

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[marekbrz]

I live in eastern Kansas (Prairie Village), and I use a Verizon Wireless phone. The call quality is virtually indistinguishable from a landline phone, and I almost always have full bars.

Admittedly, Verizon doesn't have any bluetooth phones currently, but I believe they are rolling out one soon. Even though all the other carriers have really fancy phones with a bunch of features, none of those have matched the reception of Verizon.

Almost all my friends have Sprint, and the reception on their phones is pretty crappy. I've also used AT&T and T-Mobile, but Verizon constantly has better reception than any of those.

Bluetooth data connection

[SuperKendall]

I can use my bluetooth phone as a data connection for my laptop, or for something like the Palm Tungsten with a bluetooth connection. Then I don't have to rely on having a wireless or dialup connection wherever I go.

It's not the speediest thing, but it's far nicer browsing on a laptop than a phone and is faster than dialup.

And of course you can use the bluetooth phone as a controller for various apps on the laptop - most useful for presentations, but it has a few other cool uses as well.

Re:Who cares about the phones? TDMA is the way to

[Anonymous Coward]

> Because TDMA is so much older, it has longer range
> and better sound quality. Switching from a TDMA
> phone to a GSM phone is OF COURSE A DOWNGRADE.

After all, you just can't trust anything designed in part by the French, is successfully used in more countries than McDonalds, included cross-carrier roaming and card portability in its original design, uses a combination of TDMA and FDMA technologies to support more users than either, and made the lives of phone manufacturers so much easier.

Its just so unfortunate that most of the rest of the world already uses this nasty, nasty technology to support calls even in areas where the last time western civilisation peeked in, it was to comment about a chap called Livingstone.

Obvious answer...

[Anonymous Coward]

I just want to make phone calls. What phone is for me?

This one is easy. Get the Nokia N-Gage!

Counting the days until my contract expires

[xjerky]

I foolishly signed a 2-year contract with AT&T in 7/02 since it included a free Motorola v60 phone which I read can act as a modem. Unfortunately I did not do enough research and did not discover until I signed up that AT&T disabled data access on their model. My own fault I guess.
But now I have a 12 inch Powerbook that I'd really like to take on the road, and a bluetooth phone with data capabilities is a must. Until my contract expires in July I am stuck. I'm looking at T-Mobile with their unlimited data plan.

Re:Counting the days until my contract expires

[gte910h]

If you want to stay with AT&T, they've given you a large credit on your account for buying a phone from them. Go into an AT&T store, and the will have some amount ready for you.

Re:Counting the days until my contract expires

[Obfuscant]

I'm looking at T-Mobile with their unlimited data plan.

And then you will count the days until your T-Mobile contract expires.

T-Mobile has some odd idea that I called the same non-working phone number in Australia more than a hundred times, and has refused to fix the bill ($230 when it should be about $40). The "service" rep argued with me when I asked to talk to a supervisor, and neither one would tell me the times and dates for these alleged calls.

VoiceStream used to have awful customer support and worse billing, but they were doing better -- until now. They've regressed. And they're giving me "loyalty minutes" because I've been a loyal customer.

Sorry for being OT, but bad word-of-mouth is the only leverage I have on these people, and I told them I'd use it. I'll keep using it until they wake up.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[kongjie]

I think you're missing the point.

The phone for which I paid extra money to AT&T has now been shown to have substandard reception due to the way they have built their network. This rather extraordinary step of offering a free phone pretty much acknowledges that they screwed up by selling me a 68i since it is now obsolete viz-a-vis their network.

The only reason I chose AT&T as a provider was because at the time I got my phone and plan they were the only company in my area offering a bluetooth-capable phone.

In fact, when I was dropping my old provider (Verizon) a rep called me to entice me to stay with them, offering a number of new phones with all the bells and whistles. "Do any of them have Bluetooth?" I asked. The rep didn't even know what Bluetooth was.

AT&T could easily check their records and know who bought "premium" phones with their plans. It is idiotic to offer someone a new phone that lacks key features of their old phone. It's a great strategy, however, to alienate customers.

What it really means

[Anonymous Coward]

AT&T has stopped putting in any new TDMA equipment. They are only putting up new GSM towers (in association with Cingular).

This means that if you are in an area with lousy TDMA reception, it will never improve; never work any better. They won't respond to your call quality complaints.

There's nothing to stop you from still having a TDMA/GSM plan and phone. Thye have them. The clerks in the store might not understand it, but the folks at Customer Care do.

I have the Sony Ericsson T62U - this phone does GSM, TDMA, and AMPS (analog). I have the triple plan, and I can use my phone virtually anywhere.

Honestly, it makes sense for AT&T to only be proceeding with new GSM service. While the coverage is certainly not on par with the existing technologies, their statements of support are fine, IMO. Be an intelligent consumer and get a multi-mode phone and plan if you travel out of the GSM coverage area.

Re:What it really means

[GenetixSW]

Question for you: I'm assuming you're in the USA. Does your cell phone contract actually specify which networks you can use?

I ask because up here in the Great White North, not a single company distinguishes between the networks. If your phone supports the networks offered, you can use them all.

So how does it work there?

morons abound...

[Vegeta99]

OK, here's the deal. AT&T Wireless sends these users a card saying that they'll be getting an upgraded phone within the next couple weeks. This is ONLY in areas where a GSM850 network now exists. The T68i does NOT support GSM850. So, you've got two options - Keep using your T68i keep on whining and moaning that the service sucks, or use the T226 and use the GSM850 network and the GSM1900 network. Either way, you're not really REQUIRED to send the T68i back, it's just begged that you do so in the papers. They give you a postage-paid box to send it back in.

Yeah, the phone blows. You're the moron that bought a phone that didn't support GSM850. I've had a phone from the BEGINNING that did, and still do. A SonyEricsson T616. It's easy enough to get one cheap, too. It's called a contract extension. And don't whine about the contract either, you COULD go prepaid. ATTWS has some of the best prices in the business. Mod me troll is you like, but hey, caveat emptor. It's your own fault.

Re:morons abound...

[Anonymous Coward]

On the subject of prices, how much is it for unlimited wireless web a month? $80? I'm paying $10 on T-Mobile but that buys you 4 MB on AT&T.

Re:morons abound...

[Jasn]

When I signed up there was no T616 available. I bought the best worldphone available, I found after best diligence that the coverage map I was counting on wasn't remotely close to half-right (I'm talking 100-mile misses), even before forming agreements with Cingular, and in response to my and others' issues with that, I get an offer that couldn't even reasonably be considered a sidegrade rather than a downgrade. Yeah, what a moron I am!

And the best prices in the business aren't much good if a company turns around and says "all that stuff we promised in our contract and materials? We were just kidding! Sucks to be you!" That's arguably fraudulent ... glad to see you think the customers are to blame though.

Re:morons abound...

[Vegeta99]

30 days buyer's remorse. Basically, if the service sucked, well, you should have returned the phone. I did when GSM was first released here.

It's simple enough. T68i only supports 1900MHz, T226 supports 1900MHz and 800MHz. Don't like the T226? Two options: Deal with the shitty service (should have read your contract), or pay for an upgrade (and since they're bleeding customers, you can get them pretty cheap).

Re:morons abound...

[GeorgeH]

T68i supports 900, 1800 and 1900Mhz. And the shitty service wouldn't be a problem if they weren't phasing out 900Mhz for 850Mhz towers. My T68i worked fine 2 years ago, it's unusable now (which is why I ditched AT&T and am getting my T68i unlocked to be a T-Mobile backup)

Re:morons abound...

[Jasn]

What you say is half true, in the sense that if one's service sucks 100 percent of the time, it should be returned. But I can't spend the first 30 days driving all over North America to check out their coverage map for myself, nor should I.

That's where reading my contract actually does come in ... it legally binds them *not* to bald-faced lie about what they are offering. Maybe I'm a whiner for objecting to poor service instead of going with nothing, but I'm a whiner who is informing others about what they're getting into with AT&T. And to say that when companies use market power to screw people, it doesn't necessarily mean it's because the customer is a moron.

Re:morons abound...

[Vegeta99]

they're not phasing out 1900MHz, and 900MHz is Europe only... you know how we are, one standard for world, one standard for USA... They're simply transferring much of their 800/850MHz spectrum to GSM, and since the TDMA network that this is coming from is much more mature, the coverage is greatly improved.

Re:morons abound...

[Vegeta99]

I'm trying to say they're not really screwing anyone, in fact, they're at least making an attempt to help out. You have a high end phone, but it doesn't support their new network buildout. So, they're giving you a free ENTRY LEVEL phone that does. You can take that, or you can refuse it, and call AWE up, and they will be more than happy to work a deal out with you.

Personally, I'd eBay off the T68i and T226 and buy a T616 with the profits.

Re:morons abound...

[DharmaDog]

OK, here's the deal. You are one of the morons.

When I bought my T68i almost 2 years ago, the T616 did not exist. So, it's my own fault that I didn't travel into the future 2 years ago and buy a T616? Or maybe I should research product/service roadmaps before I ever make a purchase of anything ever again. I guess I must have been high when I thought that a phone and it's corresponding service would be satisfactorily functional for almost 2 years after purchase, especially since my contract term isn't even up yet.

I would love a T616, but I don't want to get locked into ATT again for another 1 or 2 years just to find out that the service still sucks even with the new phones.

Re:morons abound...

[Vegeta99]

I'm one of the morons?

Sheesh, I think my phone works just fine. Maybe that's because I went to sites like PhoneScoop and checked what networks my phone(s) were compatible with before purchasing.

Of course, you could remove yourself from the group of morons by using the T226 and seeing how well the GSM850 network performs, and THEN buy a T616, but you, of course, didn't think of that, did you?

Re:morons abound...

[Anonymous Coward]

no you are just an asshole.

Re:morons abound...

[DharmaDog]

Yes, you are one of the morons.

ATT did not offer a 850 phone 2 years ago. They just implemented this system within the last year. But then, you didn't think of that now did you?

And I bought my phone from ATT with my contract. Is it unreasonable to believe that a phone that they sold me with their service with a 2 year term would actually be fully supported for that term?

And I fully intend to test the T226 to see if the 850 service is any good BEFORE buying a T616. Which, if you had read my post you would have that I clearly stated that is the phone I want, but I don't want to buy another phone only to find out that ATT still sucks.

Re:morons abound...

[Anonymous Coward]

if you bought the phone two years ago... arent most of the contracts with discounted phones running for 2 years max? You could just call up and extend your contract for another 2 years, keep your number and get a discounted new phone.

Re:morons abound...

[bleak sky]

T-Mobile customers now get free, unlimited GPRS. You don't need the T-zones package or anything. I believe the only port open is 80, so you might not get FTP or SSL access using an IR/Bluetooth capable phone as a modem, but still, it's completely free and unmetered.

There's a HowardForums thread about it.

Re:morons abound...

[DharmaDog]

No, they will not work out a deal. I calmly and rationally explained my situation. I even acknowledged that I appreciated the fact that they were offering a phone that can take advantage of a new system, but that a T226 was no upgrade from a T68i considering their feature sets. Primarily, Bluetooth.

They offered to sell me a T616 at the same price as a new subscriber. Big deal. They weren't offering me anything more than what they normally offer. An existing subscriber can get the same deal as new subscribers anyway by simply buying the phone through the website and extending their existing contract for another 2 years.

So, I can't agree that ATT is 'more than happy to work a deal out with you.' That has not been my experience.

As far as auctioning the T226 and T68i, I don't see how I can buy a phone from the sale of a phone that is free from most service providers that offer the phone (T226) and one that I've used for nearly 2 years (T68i). That should get me just enough to cover the eBay fees, not enough for a T616.

Did you get unlimited oral sex from ATT with your contract? Why are you so staunchly (and incorrectly) defending them?

Just to be clear: I don't think ATT has done anything wrong with this offer other than calling it a phone upgrade. It is not a phone upgrade. It MAY be a service upgrade in terms of better reception, but that has yet to be determined.

Re:morons abound...

[Jasn]

Just to be clear: I don't think ATT has done anything wrong with this offer other than calling it a phone upgrade. It is not a phone upgrade. It MAY be a service upgrade in terms of better reception, but that has yet to be determined.

Strongly agree ... the problem isn't the offer per se, it's that this (for many, not all customers) is not close to a phone upgrade. At best it is weaselly, at worst fraudulent to claim that. Is their own comparison chart not galling enough?

And I consider claims of a service upgrade the same, when the idea is to make the network work at the standard quality orginally promised in contracts/coverage maps/etc. -- none of which were supported by their actual network buildout at the time many of us subscribed, expecting standard service, but rather by the buildout they expected to have "someday" while we were chained to long-term contracts.

Totally offtopic cell phone question...

[teh*fink]

Sorry for the offtopicness, but perhaps someone has some info: I have a virgin mobile audiovox 8500; I'm sick of their crappy plan and would like to switch to anybody else. Is it possible to get this phone to work with verizon's network? I have heard of it being done...

N-Gage

[E-Sabbath]

Interestingly, the Nokia N-Gage is listed as one of the affected phones.

Anyone got the scoop on what that means? How long will non-850s last?

Does any supplier besides AT&T give service to the N-Gage?

Re:N-Gage

[GeorgeH]

T-Mobile and Cingular offer GSM, although since the latter just bought AT&T WS don't bet on it. Unfortunately your phone is most likely locked into AT&T service, so google for "n-gage unlock" or try to find a local mobile shop that will unlock the phone for you.

Re:Who cares about the phones? TDMA is the way to

[Anonymous Coward]

That's fine if you're not in the U.S. GSM in the U.S. sucks big donkey dick.

Get your phone unlocked, switch to T-Mobile

[Fubar411]

After your commitment to ATTWS is complete, you own the phone and can request the unlock code. Then, as an unlocked GSM phone, you can use it on providers in Europe, or T-Mobile in the USA. You may have problems accessing the data network, namely GPRS, but the voice will work.

Comparable Replacement?

[linuxtelephony]

Here's a couple of questions for all you armchair lawyers (and real lawyers).

The carrier is contracted to provide a certain service to the customer, now they are saying if the customer does not want the service to get worse or become unusuable they have to change their phones. If they are making changes to the network that make phones that customers paid for no longer work, isn't that breach of contract? And, if they are forcing the upgrade, wouldn't they have to provide comparable phones instead of lesser models? And, aren't they breaking some kind of law or something forcing customers to sign a new (two year?) contract just to get equipment to be able to use the service that the carrier is already contracted to provide?

This just seems wrong in so MANY ways.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[GeorgeH]

FYI, as someone who just switched away from AT&T, they charge $12/mo for 4MB of traffic... unlimited is closer to $80. If you want to do web surfing on your phone try T-Mobile or Sprint's Vision service.

Re:Who cares about the phones? TDMA is the way to

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't get defensive about it until you've *tried* GSM sevice in the U.S. It really does suck ass compared to TDMA here. Too bad the government sponsored telecom monopoly in your country will never let you try TDMA, since it's the system Big Bad America favors.

You dope!

[Anonymous Coward]

> ...and I threw it in the trash upon receiving it. I paid $120+ for my T68i

First, that phone goes into a landfill somewhere. You could have donated it at ANY Staples.

Secondly, you could have sold it on eBay and at least gotten something for it.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[SuperCal]

I have a T610 which is the same as a T616, just different carriers. Setting up a bluetooth dial up wasn't to much trouble. It took a call to tech help because all the information I could find was based on the T68, but thats ok. I found out later that while the menus are different the process of setting up a dial up connection is the same for both phones. I have had my phone for a long time now, so I'm sure finding T610 info is much easier now.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[mindstrm]

Why are you relying on the phone company for your phone? Find out what systme they use, then go get your own phone.. then go sign up with them. You don't have to get the phone from them.

That's what most of hte world does, outside the US.

Analog - Verizon

[genericacct]

Verizon is the only other national carrier with an analog network. Some Sprint phones can roam on it, but Verizon has the biggest network and most their phones are dual-mode so they can use analog. Make sure you get a dual-mode, tri-band phone, and you're Verizon phone will sound great and work just about anywhere.

Troll?

[appleLaserWriter]

I've been a Seattle ATT Wireles customer for about 9 months. Since I use a Nokia 3650 and its Bluetooth with my powerbook all the time, I was surprised when I saw that AWE may be discontinuing service for this phone.

So I called up customer care, and waited for 20 minutes to speak to a human. The representative assured me that there were no issues with the 3650, or even the T68i. She mentioned that SonyEricsson T616 users were being given the option to upgrade to the T226, , but repeatedly denied that there were any known issues with the 3650. She did make a note in my account that bluetooth is *very* important to me, and wished me a good afternoon.

I'd like to see more source information on this supposed issue. I don't have any mailings from ATT Wireless that suggest that I'll need to change my phone. Is this a TMobile troll, attempting to grab some ATT users before the Cingular merger goes through?

Re:Troll?

[Vegeta99]

The 3650 does NOT support GSM850. You can continue service with it, it doesn't bother AT&T. But if you switch to the T226, you can use the GSM850 network. AT&T deployed GSM on 1900MHz in almost all markets because 800MHz (same as GSM850, just screwed up naming scheme) was already in use by TDMA. They are now switching bandwidth from TDMA to GSM. GSM850 has much better propagation and building penetration than GSM1900, but there's no way you can use it with the 3650.

Re:Who cares about the phones? TDMA is the way to

[cygnus]

Switch carriers. TDMA is the BEST cell phone standard in the United States. You can get coverage virtually ANYWHERE. Because TDMA is so much older, it has longer range and better sound quality. Switching from a TDMA phone to a GSM phone is OF COURSE A DOWNGRADE.

I have TDMA service through Cellular One in Oregon and I LOVE it. I've made phone calls on Mt Hood, South Sister and lots of other strange, way away from civilization places you wouldn't expect a phone to work.

newsflash: GSM uses TDMA. it's just a particular implementation of TDMA. all TDMA is is a way to multiplex calls based on a time-dependent protocol. and for long distance range (over 10 miles), CDMA actually tops TDMA/GSM.

i say all of the above being an unabashed GSM user. i just hate Verizon and like the features of GSM phones.

and a hint for at&t people getting "upgrades": you're probably eligible for a customer retention upgrade. skip all this crossgrade nonsense and call at&t and say you want a new phone for being a long-term customer. i got a T616 for my T68i for free like this. you'll end up getting whatever prices a new subscriber would get, so check on at&t's website before you call.

Great Story!

[appleLaserWriter]

That is a great story, but do you have any documentation to back it up? Why didn't the AWE service girl offer me one of the great new 850 MHz phones?

Re:Great Story!

[Vegeta99]

No, I don't. Read the letter from AWE or call them. PhoneScoop.com will tell you that the 3650 supports GSM900, GSM1800, and the US GSM1900.

And most of the time, the people at stores are morons.

Re:Great Story!

[appleLaserWriter]

I did call AWE support and they didn't know anything about 850 mhz networks, that was the point of my original post.

I'm aware that the 3650 is a 900/1800/1900 phone, but I haven't seen any evidence that AWE is moving to 850.

Re:Great Story!

[Vegeta99]

They sent me a letter about it. go to howardforums.com, there's much discussion about it.

The "upgrade" is not required

[swgs]

I am an ATT Wireless subscriber and they contacted me about my free upgrade to the Sony Ericsson T226 from my beloved T68i. I had already heard about the upgrade and checked out the feature set and told the ATT Representative that I was not interested. She said that was fine.

So let me repeat, because I have not seen this mentioned anywhere else, but I was told by an ATT Rep that there would be no consequence to keeping my old phone.

Anyone remember Sprint Spectrum?

[no_such_user]

Sprint Spectrum, based in the DC/MD/VA area, was the first PCS license in the country, operating GSM1900 around 1995-2000. This was not, initially, the same company which is now Sprint PCS. As they were later deploying the new Sprint PCS network, using CDMA, Sprint Spectum continued to promise multi-city access, without roaming, on the Sprint network; since they were using two completely different systems, it was a very empty promise.

Eventually, other GSM providers popped up across the country, including Omnipoint (later Voicestream, now T-Mobile), PacBell (in some markets), and a few others. But Sprint Spectrum, later bought out or merged (?) with Sprint PCS, started to let their GSM network stagnate, focusing on building the CDMA network instead.

A class-action suit was brought against Sprint, charging that they promised their customers inter-city usage on the nationwide Sprint network, but never delivered. The result of the lawsuit was that Sprint was to provide their GSM customers with a PCS (CDMA) phone and a small rebate towards PCS service.

Well, it couldn't have played out better for Sprint -- they were able to move their customers to CDMA, had a legitimate reason to shut down the GSM network, and here's the best part: they provided old model, REFURBISHED phones to the customers who were being moved from GSM to CDMA. Conveniently, the slightly nicer models of the replacement phones were frequently out of stock, and if you wanted to get a brand-new model, you would be forced to sign up as a new customer.

Years later, I tried to get an old GSM phone from the Sprint Spectrum network SIM-unlocked. Trying to convince the Sprint PCS people that I had a Sprint-branded GSM phone was like trying to tell them the ocean was purple.

Re:So? And Request for Opinions on AT&T Wirele

[mahbidness]

I have two close friends who were done wrong by AT&T. One of them was outside the coverage area, and got socked with a 1400 dollar phone bill. That can happen, but she was sent to collections while she was paying it off (i.e. AT&T wireless had accepted a check from her the month prior.) The other one did not realize that Hawaii was not covered under the long distance plan. Similarly high bill. Paid 900 of it up front, and waited for the next month to pay the rest. Disconnected her.

I'm currently with AT&T, and in Seattle. VERY spotty coverage where I live. Am planning to switch as soon as I can.

More about GSM networks and operating frequencies

[motown]

In Europe, the 900MHz and 1800MHz ranges have been reserved (exclusively) for GSM networks for quite a few years. No standards other than GSM are allowed on these frequencies. Countries in Asia and Africa that also adopted the GSM standard ended up licensing the same frequency bands for compatibility reasons.

In North-America, the 1900MHz range was reserved for digital cellular networks. The US chose not to define a single mandatory cellular standard for use with this frequency. As a result, there are currently three different and incompatible standards in the US that are deployed in the 1900MHz range: TDMA, CDMA and GSM. All 1900MHz digital cellular networks (using any standard) are generally referred to as "PCS". TDMA is now considered to be obsolete and is gradually being replaced by GSM.

The 850MHz band is also available for cellular communications in the US. If I remember correctly, this freqency was already used for analog networks before digital cellular technology was introduced.

Digital technology offers many advantages over analog technology (security, bandwidth utilization efficiency, data services, quality of service). Therefore, cellular network providers desired to upgrade their analog networks to digital networks as much and quickly as possible. The 850Mhz licenses were still valuable, since the companies had payed a lot of money for them, and because lower frequencies offer a greater range (with the same transmitting power) than higher frequencies. In practice that means that a 850MHz network would require less antennas than a 1900MHz network within the same area of coverage.

Because of this, the GSM850 (sub)standard was officially ratified. This allowed GSM technology to be deployed in 850MHz networks.

One thing I did notice was that the major cellular phone manufacturers have sofar been slow with introducing 850MHz-compatibility in their new models.

Of course, it took some years for triband phones (900MHz/1800MHz/1900MHz) to become generally available, providing reasonable coverage in North America and excellent coverage in most of the rest of the world.

As far as I know, there are still no quadband phones (800MHz/850MHz/1800MHz/1900MHz), although I'm sure that that will be simply a matter of time. Those would be the ultimate roaming phones for frequent transatlantic travellers. :-)

The only two countries with mobile networks that don't have any GSM coverage are South-Korea and Japan.

Oops

[motown]

800MHz was supposed to be 900MHz.

(Murmures something about proofreading... ;-) )

Re:Oops

[Anonymous Coward]

Just say no to bigotry.

AT&T or SonyEricsson ?

[digitalFX]

I made a phone call the other day when I received my "free upgrade offer for just being a valued AT&T wireless customer". The phone call was the number provided and it was a direct line to the SonyEricsson company. I listened to all the pre-recorded messages they had to say, then I finally got to talk to a real live person. When I did I asked him if there were any catches like if I had to pay for anything or if they wanted my old phone back and he said no. Then I asked him why there were giving away the phones, for a recall or something along those lines and he told me that "Besides the dropped calls, no". Well that sounded like a problem to me. But anyway, my last question was if this had anything to do with AT&T or not being that this phone number didn't call them. He told me it had NOTHING to do with AT&T (even though they would have you belive that it was just a free gift) but that it was their decision. Anyway, AT&T apparently is just taking SonyEricsson's problem and making it look like they're doing you a favor by giving you a more expensive phone with less options. I need bluetooth not polyphone ringtones. I think I'll keep the phone I have and sell the new one on eBay ;) Just my two cents.

Is the S46 really the best for coverage?

[dinodriver]

I have the S46, still got upgrade offer

When I got the S46 about a year ago, I could no longer make/receive calls in Santa Cruz, CA and down near Morro Bay. Sometimes I just get no signal, others it looks like I have a strong signal but I just get the recording "cellular one, you can't make a call". No shit, I'm an AT&T customer.

But on the Nokia I had previous to that, I could call from those areas just fine.

Anyway, if you're telling me the S46 is as good as it gets for reception in central California, then hell, I guess I'll keep it and not "upgrade" to the nokia 3200 or the other choices they've given me. What do you think?

Re:Is the S46 really the best for coverage?

[Anonymous Coward]

No shit einstein
"I have a strong signal but I just get the recording "cellular one, you can't make a call". No shit, I'm an AT&T customer."

maybe you should call ATT and ask them to open up your phone so it can roam to uther networks, like Cellular Ones network and all might start working.

shithead

Re:Is the S46 really the best for coverage?

[Daniel Boisvert]

Your phone may have the same problem mine did. I have the S46 as well, and found that it will grab the strongest signal available, sometimes grabbing TDMA/D-AMPS in areas where it should have been getting GSM coverage from AT&T towers. This resulted in some weird 'not able to call' errors, and the tech support folks suggested switching the phone to GSM only when in highly-covered areas (this problem was occurring in Hartford, CT). That resolved the issues. Now I generally leave it on GSM-only all the time unless I'm headed out into the boonies.

This is also good to do because calls will only transfer in one direction. So, if you initiate a call while using GSM and move into an area where you lose GSM coverage, but maintain TDMA/D-AMPS coverage, your call will move seamlessly. Once you're using TDMA/D-AMPS, however, when the phone tries to jump back over to GSM your call will drop. That really pissed me off a couple times until tech support told me why and how to fix it. :)

Dan

Aha!

[dledeaux]

A buddy of mine at work here in Texas has had AT&T contact him trying to get him to "upgrade" his phone. They even tried to have one delivered to his house without his permission, but he wasn't home to sign for it.

After I read the article, it dawned on me that he might be one of those unlucky victims to recieve an "upgrade" to his T68i.

Sounds like they're rolling out this plan in more than just the areas mentioned in the article.

SIMUnlock@t-mobile.com: WRONG

[hirschma]

Sorry, email to that address bounces back. How about checking your incorrect facts before you post?

Jonathan

Re:SIMUnlock@t-mobile.com: WRONG

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is that email address is just used by T-Mobile, where they can send you and you cant send or reply to them...and if u want your phone unlocked, call them at their customer service number where they ask ur mobile#, imei#, and ur email address..

Re:SIMUnlock@t-mobile.com: WRONG

[Mindtoy]

Guess I should've mentioned I did this back in late 2002 :). I wouldn't be surprised if this stopped working after the number portability law came into effect. Guess I'll be buying a nice unlocked phone at www.just-talk.com for my next upgrade.

MOD PARENT UP!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good reference info!

They'd better not...

[tm2b]

I have a phone that's very expensive as phones go, because it's integrated with my car's sound/navigation system to provide voice recognition and hands-free operation (and because it's a single-sourced component. Thanks, Mercedes and Motorola).

As a phone, it works great. As an electronic gadget, it's definitely short on features but the integration is critical to me.

If AT&T makes me change to another phone, I'll be changing providers (unless they can replace my phone with another one that will integrate with the Mercedes COMAND system) and they'll be costing me a bundle. I'll be pissed.

Unlocking your T-Mobile phone

[exhilaration]

They don't do the e-mail thing anymore, use the form on their website to request your unlock code.

Use the following topic and sub-topic to make sure it gets routed to the right people:
Topic: Products and Services
Sub-topic: GSM & Smart Card Technology

I had two earlier phones (Nokia & Motorola) unlocked via the e-mail, and I recently had my Nokia 3650 unlocked via the above form.

Just make sure you've been a customer for at least 6 months, and that you are STILL a customer.

Re:Unlocking your T-Mobile phone

[hirschma]

Many thanks for providing the info. Request sent in!

Re:Unlocking your T-Mobile phone

[MisterClaw]

I ported my cell number from AT&T to T-mobile a few weeks ago, partly because I heard that T-mobile will unlock phones. Unfortunately, when I called, I was told that you have to be a customer for 90 days before they will unlock your phone - not in time for my european trip.

Re:Unlocking your T-Mobile phone

[dspyder]

Maybe post your IMEI and the service (be as specific as possible) and country that your phone is locked to and some nice soul might just provide you with the unlock code.

--D

It's my phone, I'll do with it what I want, thanks.

Dumped AT&T Wireless yesterday

[azaze1]

Without running into this issue (yet), I decided to dump AT&Thanks for your money and goodluck getting a reception Wireless just yesterday. I honestly just got sick and tired of having to find a good location in the house to walk to when recieving calls.

I switched to Verizon and got the Audiovox CDM-8900 color photo flip phone for $130. It's vastly superior in audio quality, reception, features, and its just a sexy design for a phone etc... It really is surprising that AT&T lacks so much in this market, it should be right at the top.

GSM IS TDMA BASED...Anyone catch the error.

[liquidzero4]

Did any one catch the error in the article. GSM IS TDMA BASED. QUOTE one of many in which he'she makes similar comments. " so Cingular and AT&T gradually have been phasing out obsolete protocols (like TDMA and analog) and building out their GSM networks" It's obvious that the author of this article doesn't really understand what he/she is talking about. He seems to think that GSM and TDMA are some how similar. (It appears that he/she thinks that they are both chanel access methods, when in fact they are not) TDMA is a chanell access method, GSM is just a mobile/cellular standard which uses TDMA as it's chanell access method.

Re:More about GSM networks and operating frequenci

[liquidzero4]

GSM is TDMA based....... TDMA is a just a chanell access method. (If you don't belive me do a little seach on the internet) The main differance between USA TDMA based networks and GSM TDMA based networks stems mainly from the telcom equipment used in europe. In the us the TDMA networks used T1's / Tx's from the message swtichs, TDMA sync is based off the T sync. In europe they use E1 which is differnt hence the synch parameters are differnt. Other than the TDMA in the US and TDMA used in european GSM are the same. Obviously this synch problem has been over come propably by using external clocks.

Sprint Spectrum

[poemtree]

This happened to me in the late 90's when Sprint decided to shut down their Spectrum network in favor of the parallel PCS network they were building. Trouble was they only offered new phones to their highest paying customers. My bill was pretty low each month, so I was only offered refurb phones. I called to ask why and the guy said everyone got refurbs, which I knew to be false because my wife, a heavier user, got her choice of new phones. Anyway the chintzy Sony by Qualcomm I ended up with sucked compared to the cool Moto I had on Spectrum. And because the PCS network was so new, coverage sucked ass. I am permanently anti-Sprint over that fiasco. I assume ATT will lose some customers to this as well. Maybe they'll go to cingular... Won't they be surprised.

Foreigners

[Seft]

How does this affect my tri-band phone? Also, this could lead to a large influx of second hand triband phones into places where they still work.

I Dumped AT&T ears ago, Everyone else should t

[DougReed]

I dumped their long distance when they charged me $200 for a long distance call to England because I was not on their "Pay $7 a month for $.10 a minute Plan". They said there WAS no such plan, and never had been when I called them up... I faxed them last months Bill with a $7 charge for "International SuperSaver" or whatever, and this months with a $0 charge for "International SuperSaver", and gave them a choice fix my bill, or talk to my lawyer. ...Suddenly "Oh yea, we're cancelling that plan effective immediately." Then they kept slamming me into alternate, more expensive plans, and I had to call them up to complain to put it back.

I live in L.A. and dumped their Cell phone after the first year because it had the WORST coverage on the planet. They have all this "coverage" on their map that simply does not exist. When I complained, they admitted this, and told me that I should stick with them because they have the best coverage of ANY provider in Barstow.

Please give AT&T what they REALLY deserve. Bankruptcy.

Re:More about GSM networks and operating frequenci

[Anonymous Coward]

Though you provide a seemingly well reasoned post on cellular phone technology, I doubt you can offer a cogent validation of your signature. You know, an argument that doesn't rely on specious appeals to anti-colonialism and anti-occupation. It has become quite fashionable in left-wing corners to be virulently anti-Israel. And the fact that the media indulges a base desire to hate the Jewish state makes it easier for those like you to rationalize your hatred. There are those of us who aren't deluded, however. Hatred of the state of Israel is synonymous with Jew-hatred, you should understand. The funny thing is, I used to believe the Arabist were to credit for engendering negative sentiment toward Israel in popular culture. Now, however, I think it's more likely that many non-Jews are so thoroughly receptive to all forms of anti-semitism, they are inclined to imbibe and espouse it in all manifestations. Regardless of morality or merit, you will hate Jews.

I look forward to the day when your ignorance will be made manifest to you by the Almighty.

And how is this inconsistent with AT&T?

[mabu]

AT&T has traditionally been the least innovative and most expensive player in the marketplace. They are the Verisign of telcos. Caveat Emptor.

Gee, a phone company trying to screw you.

[gelfling]

Go figure, what are the odds of THAT happening?

worldphone vs. domestic

[ka9taw]

Surprisingly, I don't see this issue having been raised in any of the previous threads, though I mentioned it on my blog about a week ago. The T226 replacement for the T68i is not a triband phone. It operates only on 850/1900MHz, the two American only GSM networks. Since I bought my T68i precisely to be a worldphone, going back to two separate phones to get decent domestic service is going to be a PITA. I might as well switch....T-Mobile perhaps? or wait for the Cingular merge? My friend vowe also notices that international travellers to the US will now have to upgrade to quad-band phones...

Re:More about GSM networks and operating frequenci

[BigBir3d]

As far as I know, there are still no quadband phones (800MHz/850MHz/1800MHz/1900MHz), although I'm sure that that will be simply a matter of time. Those would be the ultimate roaming phones for frequent transatlantic travellers. :-)

Motorola V600 is quad-band. Of course, it goes for about $750 right now...

Re:More about GSM networks and operating frequenci

[MountainLogic]

IIRC, the GSM version of the Palm Treo 600 is quad band (850/900/18001900). They also make a CDMA version of the Treo for Sprint.

+ 1 Bonus Modifier for Using All Relavent Acronyms

[KnarfO]

:-)

Warning for T-Mobile users...

[Obfuscant]

... and that you are STILL a customer.

Well, that's going to leave me out.

I spent a week in Australia with my phone, and made about a dozen calls. I called T-Mobile to get the charges so I could do my expense report: $230. (The correct charges should be around $40.)

For some reason only they know, they think I made more than 100 one-minute calls (at $1.49/minute) to the same non-working number. The "customer service" (HA!) person would not admit that this seemed odd, and she argued with me when I asked to talk to a supervisor. The supervisor was just as unhelpful.

I don't yet know how many calls or when they were allegedly made, since they wouldn't tell me this information over the phone. I have to wait for my bull, ahem, bill to show up.

They are either fixing the bogus bill, or I'm using this number portability I'm being forced to pay for and taking my business elsewhere.

Re:More about GSM networks and operating frequenci

[Shurhaian]

As far as I know, there are still no quadband phones (800MHz/850MHz/1800MHz/1900MHz), although I'm sure that that will be simply a matter of time. Those would be the ultimate roaming phones for frequent transatlantic travellers. :-)

As a matter of fact, two phones offered by AT&T Wireless do just that: the NEC 515 and the NEC 525. They aren't so highly priced as the Motorola phone mentioned in a sibling to this post(though the 525 is still a fairly high-end phone), unless the sibling poster was talking about $Cdn or something like that.

GSM is, as mentioned elsewhere, a TDMA standard; that commonly referred to as TDMA in the US is known as D-AMPS or IS-136. 850 MHz was indeed around with the earlier analog phones; 1900 opened up to alleviate signal congestion(which was also certainly helped by the triplex inherent in the IS-136 standard itself).

AT&T Rape Droid

[Brandon One]

Looks like the the AT&T Customer Service Droid strikes again... Along with their patent on spam-filter circumvention it is safe to say AT&T holds the #1 market share in raping the public.

Holy Crap!

[shumacher]

I just bought a T68i! Now I know why they are so cheap!
OTOH, Bluetooth, IRDA, hell I can drive a little bluetooth car with the phone. It's pretty neat. Now to wait for the UPS man.