BZZZT! Game over. You just essentially said that any one software design is as good as any other from a usability standpoint. (Since it's "immeasurable", how would you know which is better? Not knowing, all must be equal, then.) Usability is measurable, especially with regards to the amount of time it takes a given user to accomplish a specific task.
I think that pretty much hits the "Godwin's Law" principle for me... I'm done.
Ok, clearly this is going to go no-where, but just for you...
SHOW ME A SINGLE PROGRAM THAT IS SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE IT HAS REDUCED CONFIGURATION FUNCTIONALITY
Now, in all caps also, AND in bold, so you'll here me back (just in case, y'know)
SHOW ME A SINGLE PROGRAM THAT IS SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE IT HAS A RIDICULOUS NUMBER OF CONFIGURATION OPTIONS
That said, the fundamental flaw in your arguments is that Windows, MS Office, ICQ, etc, are somehow the pinnacle of usability. Perhaps the reason the average user never changes preferences is because it's fucking hard for them. That doesn't make them idiots, either. It makes them non-geeks. Furthermore, in order to make headway in the desktop market, Linux can't be on par with Windows - it has to be much better. Getting people to leave what they know is hard, so you have to provide them the incentive somehow.
You also state that people only ever set preferences once - this is also untrue. Many preferences are like this, sure, but some may need frequent adjustments. For non-geeks (since you're allergic to the term "average user"), this is daunting, and understandably so.
Next time you see a non-geek relative of yours, watch them on the computer. Ask yourself if the user is the idiot, or if maybe the designer of the software was too myopic to see past what he thought would be "cool".
That's my point - GNOME doesn't have a kiosk mode! KDE does - good for them. Fortunately, kiosk mode is a much-requested feature, and may be part of GNOME 2.4 this summer.
But here's the thing that really struck me about this: command lines, as a user interface, really suck ass. Even if you use them, you know that's true. Somewhere, deep in your heart, you know what you're doing is ridiculous, and there's got to be a better way.
Yes, command line interfaces can be very useful and efficient for some tasks, but wow do they suck in so many ways. But regardless, Linux, whether in GNOME, KDE, or otherwise, has one very strong difference that will always seperate it from Windows, thus making the "It's just like Windows all over again! Wahhh!" arguments false: the very command line you mention. Linux will always have a variety of powerful shells available, with flexible command line tools, all available within that awful GUI you despise so!
Re:Why do some many prefer Gnome then ?
on
Has GNOME Become LAME?
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· Score: 2, Insightful
And it's no coincidence that RedHat users usually say that Linux isn't ready for the desktop yet while SuSE, Mandrake or Gentoo users say it is...
Perhaps this indicates that Red Hat users are more objective then, since Linux isn't yet ready for the desktop.
KDE is a complete mess of feature and preference overload, with little apparent thought given to design. GNOME has the design part down a lot better, and has a far more sane attitude towards preferences, but is lacking in some features, a few of them major. (No, I don't mean stupid sh*t like edge-flipping - I'm talking about stuff like a lock-down system for administrators, a must-have in office environments!)
Neither desktop is quite ready for Joe Consumer use - but I predict that one or both will get damn close this year, either by GNOME filling in a few feature gaps, or KDE getting serious about consumer-level usability.* We're not there yet, but we are damn close.
* side note to Mosfet-worshippers: "organization" will not save you - kontrol center is drowning in useless preferences. Some of them simply have to go
Why? Because in the past, Google has exhibited very community/public-friendly decisions, where as Microsoft, the RIAA, and the Bush administration, well... you brought them up, you apparently know why one might not trust them. (I sure don't.)
So yes, the source of the statement (ie: the context) DOES matter.
Re:Redifference between uppercase and lowercase
on
Verbing Weirds Google
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· Score: 1
They kind of have to try, actually. Trademarks can only be held if you actively defend them - if Google didn't take *some* kind of action to protect it's trademark, they could lose it!
That said, it really sucks that it had to happen - I wonder if Google has to actually sue this guy in order to satisfy the defense clause for trademarks... I would hope not.
Before anyone gets off on a huge rant about this fork being pointless/harmfull/etc, read this - it's a statement by Andrew Tridgell, saying that he is "delighted" about the fork...
Understood and agreed, but what I meant was that on higher end machines, I'd still run Phoenix for Windows or Epiphany for Linux, but on low-end machines, I could run Opera without cringing... heck, with a basic, phoenix/galeon/epiphany-like interface, I *might* even use it more regularly on my main machine...
Just because I said the UI is a steaming fucking pile doesn't mean I said you shouldn't use it.
Secondly, learn to take some criticism. I don't use the browser I use because I hate Opera (what a bizarre position to take...), I use it because I think it's better than anything else for my needs. I also happen to think that it's better than Opera for most other peoples' needs, but I'm certainly not shoving it down anyone's throat - these are just my opionions.
Finally, don't quote numbers to me. 6 million downloads (let's not confuse the number of downloads with the number of people who actually keep and use the app, thanks.) for a commercial product is not bad, but it's a tiny percentage of web users. According to Browser News, Gecko based browsers are way ahead of this.
"Just turn off the features you don't want to use, it's not that hard"
If I had to do that for every app, it'd take me HOURS to get my shit working right. Why should I have to do that at all? Just pick a good default for fuck's sake, and stick with it.
Well, I have, and I'm plenty happy with Gecko-based browsers, thanks.
Opera's UI is like a trip into some magical fairy land, where every little UI-related feature request that any user ever made has been granted! The result?
FUCKING BEDLAM.
Opera is practically unusable, thanks to its fantastically confusing and inconsistant UI. This is a shame, since its actual HTML engine is no slouch. It's no Gecko when it comes to standards compliance, but it's pretty good in 7.0. A shame that they can't make a Galeon/K-meleon simple interface to the damn thing. Opera-lite, anyone? I might actually be interested in such a thing, especially for lower end machines.
Actually, computers REALLY suck at Go, largely because predicting the next 50 moves, like unlike with chess, is a lot more difficult, since the number of possibilities is many many times greater. I'm guessing they'd do just as badly with n-dimensional Go as that do with 2d, perhaps even worse, given the increased number of possible moves in a given set of turns.
Re:Kazaa folks are not dumb
on
Kazaa Fights Back
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· Score: 2, Insightful
I mean, look her in the eyes. Does she look like someone who would lie down and take from multinational media pimps?
Dude, she'd take DVDA from "multinational media pimps" if they paid her enough.
Sorry to break it to you, but capitalism basically breakes down to whoring yourself to the highest bidder for whomever can offer the mad bling-bling, "principles" be damned!
I don't know who you are, and I didn't think much of the posts I read in your posting history. But that doesn't matter! I love you because I, too, share your dream of destroying the obnoxious evil that is HanzoSan! I, too, suffer under his ill informed, unfounded Pollyanna optimism! Let me join your quest to stop the HanzoSan in his tracks!
You make some great points, but fortunately there are some answers coming to your questions.
Where are the good GUIs for the video players (yes, GUIs, not skins) ?
Nice that you made the distinction.:)
For a totally sweet Xine GUI, check out Totem! It's a really slick, super-easy to use GNOME 2 app for video and DVD. Good stuff, very nice attention to usability.
Where is high quality Real Media playback ?
Real Player 8 works fine on my box! Plus, with Helix going all OSS/Hippy on us, we'll have a (mostly) OSS and completely legal Real Player for Linux this year.
Where is high quality Quicktime playback ?
Shoved up Apple's ass... stupid, politicking bastards.... *mutter*
But really... Totem can do Quicktime, if you get the proper codecs installed for Xine.
Slashdot Mirror
BZZZT! Game over. You just essentially said that any one software design is as good as any other from a usability standpoint. (Since it's "immeasurable", how would you know which is better? Not knowing, all must be equal, then.) Usability is measurable, especially with regards to the amount of time it takes a given user to accomplish a specific task.
I think that pretty much hits the "Godwin's Law" principle for me... I'm done.
Ok, take a step back and think about this.
;)
Would a bunch of spinning nodes around a shiny sphere be really easier than the WIMP metaphor, or would it just look more l33t?
Also, why should there even be a "tune up my computer" button? Shouldn't the damn thing do that by itself? (Isn't this what cron was made for?)
Now, in all caps also, AND in bold, so you'll here me back (just in case, y'know)
SHOW ME A SINGLE PROGRAM THAT IS SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE IT HAS A RIDICULOUS NUMBER OF CONFIGURATION OPTIONS
That said, the fundamental flaw in your arguments is that Windows, MS Office, ICQ, etc, are somehow the pinnacle of usability. Perhaps the reason the average user never changes preferences is because it's fucking hard for them. That doesn't make them idiots, either. It makes them non-geeks. Furthermore, in order to make headway in the desktop market, Linux can't be on par with Windows - it has to be much better. Getting people to leave what they know is hard, so you have to provide them the incentive somehow.You also state that people only ever set preferences once - this is also untrue. Many preferences are like this, sure, but some may need frequent adjustments. For non-geeks (since you're allergic to the term "average user"), this is daunting, and understandably so.
Next time you see a non-geek relative of yours, watch them on the computer. Ask yourself if the user is the idiot, or if maybe the designer of the software was too myopic to see past what he thought would be "cool".
That's my point - GNOME doesn't have a kiosk mode! KDE does - good for them. Fortunately, kiosk mode is a much-requested feature, and may be part of GNOME 2.4 this summer.
HA! Mod parent up!
Really? In what ways? And why is this a bad thing? Cite examples - be specific.
I will now quote from the book of jwz:
(this quote shamelessly lifted from: http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/bittybox.html)Yes, command line interfaces can be very useful and efficient for some tasks, but wow do they suck in so many ways. But regardless, Linux, whether in GNOME, KDE, or otherwise, has one very strong difference that will always seperate it from Windows, thus making the "It's just like Windows all over again! Wahhh!" arguments false: the very command line you mention. Linux will always have a variety of powerful shells available, with flexible command line tools, all available within that awful GUI you despise so!
Perhaps this indicates that Red Hat users are more objective then, since Linux isn't yet ready for the desktop.
KDE is a complete mess of feature and preference overload, with little apparent thought given to design. GNOME has the design part down a lot better, and has a far more sane attitude towards preferences, but is lacking in some features, a few of them major. (No, I don't mean stupid sh*t like edge-flipping - I'm talking about stuff like a lock-down system for administrators, a must-have in office environments!)
Neither desktop is quite ready for Joe Consumer use - but I predict that one or both will get damn close this year, either by GNOME filling in a few feature gaps, or KDE getting serious about consumer-level usability.* We're not there yet, but we are damn close.
* side note to Mosfet-worshippers: "organization" will not save you - kontrol center is drowning in useless preferences. Some of them simply have to go
You're right, actually.
Why? Because in the past, Google has exhibited very community/public-friendly decisions, where as Microsoft, the RIAA, and the Bush administration, well... you brought them up, you apparently know why one might not trust them. (I sure don't.)
So yes, the source of the statement (ie: the context) DOES matter.
Very well said - mod parent up!
They kind of have to try, actually. Trademarks can only be held if you actively defend them - if Google didn't take *some* kind of action to protect it's trademark, they could lose it!
That said, it really sucks that it had to happen - I wonder if Google has to actually sue this guy in order to satisfy the defense clause for trademarks... I would hope not.
Let us not also forget that BSD is 99% dying! :P
Before anyone gets off on a huge rant about this fork being pointless/harmfull/etc, read this - it's a statement by Andrew Tridgell, saying that he is "delighted" about the fork...
you mean like Sweden? :P
Understood and agreed, but what I meant was that on higher end machines, I'd still run Phoenix for Windows or Epiphany for Linux, but on low-end machines, I could run Opera without cringing... heck, with a basic, phoenix/galeon/epiphany-like interface, I *might* even use it more regularly on my main machine...
Just because I said the UI is a steaming fucking pile doesn't mean I said you shouldn't use it.
Secondly, learn to take some criticism. I don't use the browser I use because I hate Opera (what a bizarre position to take...), I use it because I think it's better than anything else for my needs. I also happen to think that it's better than Opera for most other peoples' needs, but I'm certainly not shoving it down anyone's throat - these are just my opionions.
Finally, don't quote numbers to me. 6 million downloads (let's not confuse the number of downloads with the number of people who actually keep and use the app, thanks.) for a commercial product is not bad, but it's a tiny percentage of web users. According to Browser News, Gecko based browsers are way ahead of this.
Am I high? Listen to your responses!
"Just turn off the features you don't want to use, it's not that hard"
If I had to do that for every app, it'd take me HOURS to get my shit working right. Why should I have to do that at all? Just pick a good default for fuck's sake, and stick with it.
Moron.
Well, I have, and I'm plenty happy with Gecko-based browsers, thanks.
Opera's UI is like a trip into some magical fairy land, where every little UI-related feature request that any user ever made has been granted! The result?
FUCKING BEDLAM.
Opera is practically unusable, thanks to its fantastically confusing and inconsistant UI. This is a shame, since its actual HTML engine is no slouch. It's no Gecko when it comes to standards compliance, but it's pretty good in 7.0. A shame that they can't make a Galeon/K-meleon simple interface to the damn thing. Opera-lite, anyone? I might actually be interested in such a thing, especially for lower end machines.
Except RHCE isn't just a "paper" exam - there's actually an interactive skills section to it, so it's not the same as the MCSE.
If Slashdotters don't ridicule the RHCE exam and the people that get the cert, maybe it's because the RHCE is a better program.
Actually, computers REALLY suck at Go, largely because predicting the next 50 moves, like unlike with chess, is a lot more difficult, since the number of possibilities is many many times greater. I'm guessing they'd do just as badly with n-dimensional Go as that do with 2d, perhaps even worse, given the increased number of possible moves in a given set of turns.
Dude, she'd take DVDA from "multinational media pimps" if they paid her enough.
Sorry to break it to you, but capitalism basically breakes down to whoring yourself to the highest bidder for whomever can offer the mad bling-bling, "principles" be damned!
I love you, Anti-Hanzosan.
I don't know who you are, and I didn't think much of the posts I read in your posting history. But that doesn't matter! I love you because I, too, share your dream of destroying the obnoxious evil that is HanzoSan! I, too, suffer under his ill informed, unfounded Pollyanna optimism! Let me join your quest to stop the HanzoSan in his tracks!
You make some great points, but fortunately there are some answers coming to your questions.
:)
.ASF/.WMV/QT streaming support ?
Where are the good GUIs for the video players (yes, GUIs, not skins) ?
Nice that you made the distinction.
For a totally sweet Xine GUI, check out Totem! It's a really slick, super-easy to use GNOME 2 app for video and DVD. Good stuff, very nice attention to usability.
Where is high quality Real Media playback ?
Real Player 8 works fine on my box! Plus, with Helix going all OSS/Hippy on us, we'll have a (mostly) OSS and completely legal Real Player for Linux this year.
Where is high quality Quicktime playback ?
Shoved up Apple's ass... stupid, politicking bastards.... *mutter*
But really... Totem can do Quicktime, if you get the proper codecs installed for Xine.
Where is
Still not the greatest solution, but Crossover Office and Crossover Plugin do a great job of running WMP and QT right on your desktop.
Yeah, these aren't perfect, but there's obviously some serious progress being made in these directions.
My thoughts exactly.
May the moderators see thy wisdom, too, and act accordingly. *hint*hint*
Only 4 troll posts so far, and already their webserver has melted!
Are they being hosted by that "webserver-on-a-gameboy" guy, or what?
until then, DRM may be that only thing saving our marriages.
*giggle* My, you're a such a silly little troll! Teehee!